Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 3 discussion(s) to Talk:Yaoi/Archive 2) (bot |
110.20.234.69 (talk) →Red links to NY,NY and Tomoi: new section |
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Until someone reads the right volume of [[One Thousand and One Nights (manhwa)]] this can't be verified (and some of it sounds like a personal theory on the original wiki editor's part rather than the author's), but I felt I should save it here, just in case someone does read the book. I've removed it from the article because it can't be verified, but it could be added back in if someone gets the book. --[[Special:Contributions/110.20.234.69|110.20.234.69]] ([[User talk:110.20.234.69|talk]]) 22:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC) |
Until someone reads the right volume of [[One Thousand and One Nights (manhwa)]] this can't be verified (and some of it sounds like a personal theory on the original wiki editor's part rather than the author's), but I felt I should save it here, just in case someone does read the book. I've removed it from the article because it can't be verified, but it could be added back in if someone gets the book. --[[Special:Contributions/110.20.234.69|110.20.234.69]] ([[User talk:110.20.234.69|talk]]) 22:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC) |
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== Red links to NY,NY and Tomoi == |
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[[New York, New York (manga)]] is listed at [[WP:ANIME/REQUEST]] with a short bibliography of secondary sources (in English), therefore it is notable, verifiable, and would be likely to become an article in the future. In addition, it has several interwiki pages, and the German one has an identifiable reception section. These articles could be translated here. |
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[[Tomoi (manga)]], as the first series in the genre to cover issues like AIDS, is similarly discussed in the literature, including a chapter in [[Dreamland Japan]]. [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Tomoi+manga&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&search_plus_one=form Google Scholar search]. As it has secondary sources, the topic is notable, verifiable, and therefore likely. |
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I don't know why the red links to them should be removed in the main page, because [[WP:REDLINK]] states that valid topics should not be delinked, and that having red links in articles improves their likelihood of being created. I've started up a discussion on the talk page of the guideline to get some clarification on this. --[[Special:Contributions/110.20.234.69|110.20.234.69]] ([[User talk:110.20.234.69|talk]]) 21:24, 29 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Further reading
Removed from the article, but possibly useful to expand the references:
Talk:Yaoi/Reference suggestions
Inclusion of "yaoi" in LBGT in Japan template
Please see discussion at Template talk:LGBT in Japan. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yaoi has nothing to do with LGBT. Yaoi is culture of the heterosexuals. It is inappropriate to write in Template:LGBT in Japan.ヤオイ(Yaoi)は1970年代の日本で、異性愛女性に生み出されたものです。ja:森鴎外の娘のja:森茉莉が、書いたのが一番最初ですが。基本的にヤオイは異性愛者の文化です。ゲイ男性の多くはヤオイは読みません。
- Yaoi was produced in Japan of the 1970s by a heterosexually oriented woman. It is Mori Mari first to have written. Yaoi is culture of the heterosexuals. Most of gay men do not read Yaoi. It has nothing to do with the culture of LGBT. Yaoi is a cltures of the heterosexuals, by the heterosexuals, for the heterosexuals. It isn't related topic. Yaio is an imaginary product of the hetero woman. It is different from the real homosexual. source:「オトコノコのためのボーイフレド」(1986,Japan)P72[1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leoxaq (talk • contribs) 04:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The template is not "LGBT culture in Japan". It's "LGBT in Japan". Yaoi is about gay men. It doesn't matter who the target audience is. このテンプレートが日本のLGBTです。日本のLGBTの文化じゃない。ヤオイの内容が同性愛と同性愛者ですよ。対象顧客層が関係ない。 (Note: Japanese text is the same as English text). EvergreenFir (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yaoi is not about gay men.Yaoi is about gay by the hetero woman's imagination. It is not included in LGBT concept.--Leoxaq (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Please keep the discussion at Template talk:LGBT in Japan. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- First of all I would like to say that lots of gay men especially in the United States do read Yaoi. Secondly, some yaoi is written by men. Thirdly, if it is by women for women it would be a matter of appropriation and exploitation of homosexual relationships which would mean it is 100% anti-gay by design. So if it wasn't for the fact that many people in the gay community me included do believe it was gay it would be virtually the same as blackface and therefore would be discriminative. Which do you want it to be? I have seen studying both suggesting it is gay and others suggesting its homophobic.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 07:13, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Please keep the discussion at Template talk:LGBT in Japan. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yaoi is not about gay men.Yaoi is about gay by the hetero woman's imagination. It is not included in LGBT concept.--Leoxaq (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The template is not "LGBT culture in Japan". It's "LGBT in Japan". Yaoi is about gay men. It doesn't matter who the target audience is. このテンプレートが日本のLGBTです。日本のLGBTの文化じゃない。ヤオイの内容が同性愛と同性愛者ですよ。対象顧客層が関係ない。 (Note: Japanese text is the same as English text). EvergreenFir (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Yaoi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Lemurbaby (talk · contribs) 12:31, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
- Is it reasonably well written?
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. References to sources:
- B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
- C. No original research:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- B. Focused:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail:
- Pass or Fail:
Comments
General
- There are instances of British and American spellings in the article. Pick one and use it consistently.
- Done Or at least I think so. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:31, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sometimes Japanese terms are italicized and sometimes they aren't, but not in a consistent way. Either they should all be italicized, or only italicized on the first use - some kind of a system.
- There is confusion in the use of Yaoi and Boys' Love at places throughout the article. Sometimes Yaoi is used as a blanket term, and other times Yaoi and Boys' Love are both discussed with an implied differentiation that seems to be more relevant among Japanese than among Westerners. The article needs to be clear on how it's using the terms within the article itself. How are you intending they be used here - are you using the Japanese meaning of Yaoi or the Western one?
- Choose one consistent way to write dates: day month year or month day year, and choose whether to spell out month names or use a number
- Done All dmy to match the Oxford usage.
- Citation formatting is inconsistent as well. Please use one consistent format for these - I'd recommend templates, but they're not required.
Lead
- The lead doesn't summarize all the subsections of the article and needs to be reworked and expanded.
History
- This section should lead off with the background to the creation of the genre as an outgrowth and parody of the earlier one. I copied the content from the lead as a place holder and moved another bit of referenced material here where it fits better than where it was. I'd recommend rewording and expanding the copied content and adding the necessary references to support it.
- "The nascent genre targeted the shōjo and josei demographics" - which are what?
- The history section is difficult for the average English-language reader because it uses foreign terms without defining them. It's also unclear what happened when, and why/how in the development of the genre - is yaoi a subgenre/outgrowth of shonen or of shojo, for example?
- If "A Lovers' Forest" is the first work of yaoi, it shouldn't be in a note but in the main body of the article. It's unclear which was the first though - the article posits several contenders. If there is no consensus on which really was the first, would you cluster the contenders together and make it clear that cases have been made for each but there is no agreement on any one of them? It will be important to include the year each one was published to help make the chronology clearer in the reader's mind.
- Explain why Kurimoto's works are the precursor to yaoi - did they focus more on female sensibilities or something?
- How can the term yaoi be created in the 1970s and coined in the 1980s?
- "The phrase also parodies a classical style of plot structure." How so?
- Using the quotes "difficult to understand" and "yummy parts" is not encyclopedic and obscures the meaning here. I'd recommend explaining in plain English what's meant here, and if you feel the quote is really worth keeping, use it in a quote box off to the right side.
- I'd recommend explaining how june is supposed to be pronounced if we don't want a whole world of readers to pronounce the name of the genre the same as the month! :) Also be consistent in using either juné or june as the spelling.
- "male/male tanbi (耽美 "aesthetic") romances" - there is a problem here with the coding, indicated by a superscript question mark in the article after "aesthetic". I also noticed the same problem after " Yamete, oshiri ga itai" and it's probably elsewhere too. You'd want to review the whole article to check for and correct this error wherever it surfaces.
- In the note, "The word was originally used to describe an author's distinctive style, for example, the styles of Yukio Mishima and Jun'ichirō Tanizaki." - the wording of this is unclear to me. Can you provide an example linking these writers and the word tanbi?
Shōnen-ai
- Can you briefly describe how these were characterized by idealism?
- Who is Suzuki? (help the reader know why his/her opinion or analysis matters)
- Do you have a reference to support the claim made regarding Gravitation and the Remix version?
Top and bottom
- "In recent years..." can you use a year or decade when this changed?
Bara
- This section is relatively underdeveloped. I reorganized a bit. Add citations where indicated.
Female characters
- "Early shōnen-ai and yaoi have been regarded as misogynistic" - by whom?
- "but Lunsing notes a decrease in misogynistic comments from characters and regards the development of the yuri genre as reflecting a reduction of internal misogyny." Can you explain this more fully? I don't understand the connection between the development of yuri and reduction in misogyny.
- "Alternatively, yaoi fandom is also viewed as a "refuge" from mainstream culture, which in this paradigm is viewed as inherently misogynistic." - I don't follow this either. how is yaoi fandom a refuge from misogynistic mainstream culture, especially if the female characters are so unimportant or negatively depicted?
- "Yaoi author Fumi Yoshinaga usually includes at least one sympathetic female character in her works" - why cite this one particular author? Is this meant to be evidence for something bigger? How does this fit?
- "There are many female characters in Yaoi who are Fujoshi themselves." - need to explain Fujoshi and how this connects to female empowerment. Add a citation.
Homophobia
- "The theme of the protagonists' victory in yaoi has been compared favourably to Western fairy tales, as the latter intends to enforce the status quo, but yaoi is "about desire" and seeks "to explore, not circumscribe, possibilities."" - This is unclear - I don't understand the comparison, especially since the part beginning "but yaoi" seems to be intended to contradict the comparison rather than support it.
Rape
- "rendering her stories a subversion of contemporary tropes that reinforce and reflect older tropes such as the prevalence of romantic tragedy themes." - I'm having a hard time following this. Can you reword it or clarify?
- The focus on Fusanosuke Inariya here seems unbalanced. Are there other authors to talk about in relation to this subversion of the rape fantasy trope?
- I disagree with the idea that rape is more prevalent in Yaoi manga than in other type of erotic or pornographic material. If you were to do a statistical analysis of all Yaoi mangas, I am pretty sure the rape fantasy would rank pretty low bellow other more common fantasies - like best friend romance, unrequited love, etc. I would question the impulse to single this topic out amongst other.
Tragedy
- "June stories with suicide endings were popular" - when was this?
- You jump from discussing june to talking about yaoi. Is there a distinction you need to draw here between june and yaoi? If not, use the term yaoi throughout. If so, we need more of a lead from the discussion of june to the discussion of yaoi because as it is now there is no discussion of what tragedy happens in yaoi stories.
Publishing
- In general this section is underdeveloped and doesn't cover some key areas of content. It's unclear but seems the only publishers discussed are those printing for North American markets. Who prints in Japan? What data do we have about revenues, publishers and popularity of yaoi manga in other countries? What about revenues, sales and distributors in the self-publishing market?
- Restate here when June was first published, and explain what happened in 2004 to mark the transition to the second period. I hid this using the !-- because right now it won't fit without significant expansion to make the information relevant.
- I think the word "imprint" might be a mistranslation here. Is the article referring to publishing houses?
- Address "citation needed" tags
Demographics
- address the citation needed tags
- This section should lead off with data about female fans in Japan, which is currently lacking.
- There is also info about non-Japanese fans here that should be moved to the section "Popularity outside Japan".
- "a search for non-Japanese sites" - what kind of sites?
- There is redundancy in the "popularity outside Japan" section regarding Global Yaoi
- Need to introduce the acronym GLOBL alongside Global BL
- Several manga titles in this section are not italicized and need to be
Critical reception
- Again use yaoi as the term, not Boys' Love or BL, if the Anglophone meaning of the term (i.e. the subject of this article) is being discussed
- Use the past simple tense when a specific year or date is referenced: "In x year, so-and-so observed" not "so-and-so has observed". Lots of grammar fixes to be made in this section regarding verb tense
- "BL has been compared to romance novels..." rephrase so it's no longer a passive sentence
- "Sandra Buckley believes that bishounen narratives..." remind the reader what characterizes bishounen narratives relative to other types of narratives discussed in this article
- yaoi ronsō - this should be defined
- in the paragraph starting "As women have greater economic power, ..." references are needed for the quotes and paraphrasing
Criticism
- yaoi ronsō or "yaoi debate" of 1992–1997 - this needs to be fully developed in a paragraph of its own, and should probably be mentioned in the history section
- "There has been similar criticism to the Japanese yaoi debate in the English-speaking fandom" - awkward, rephrase
- "In China, BL became very popular..." this sentence also needs to be rephrased
- This section also needs to use the term yaoi instead of BL/Boys' Love for consistency
- "comics were not copyrighted as the publishers feared arrest for posting the content" - I don't understand the connection here
- "In 2001, a controversy erupted in Thailand ..." this paragraph is disorganized and difficult to follow. Reorganize
End GA review
- With the passage of NGE, I'm moving to this one, which I somehow neglected to see. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:31, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Sexual Orientation of the Audience
The fact of the matter is that we are not agreeing on what sexual orientations should be included people keep challenging well maybe gays the right word or androphiliac or LGBT. Lets remove the problem we can pretty much surmise that most of the audience (especially in Japan) are Women with a growing number of Men (especially in Western countries) also reading it. If you do insist on including sexual orientation I suggest we use LGBT which to the person who mentioned transgender does not always mean just because we use LGBT we are discussing every sexual orientation or gender identity under the umbrella. Anyone have any objections please speak up on the talk page.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 07:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- My only comment on this matter at the time is what I stated in this edit summary. If most of the audience for yaoi is usually cited as heterosexual females, that should be in the lead...per WP:Lead. That's what a WP:Good article or WP:Featured article reviewer would state (experienced ones who know what they are talking about anyway). Simply indicating in the lead that most of the audience is female is of course not the same thing as stating that the vast majority of those females are (or are commonly cited as) heterosexual...even though people often assume that a person is heterosexual unless that person states otherwise. Per WP:Lead, it is also fine to summarize the other sexual orientation demographics. That stated, I don't much care that these demographic aspects are no longer in the lead. Flyer22 (talk) 08:02, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well my ideal was going to be to state that Yaoi is mostly read by heterosexual women and LGBT people (which would encompass the gay, lesbian, bi an pan identities that were already in the lead). However I really don't see sexual orientation as important when discussing the audience. I'm pretty sure people from homosexual to heterosexual to bisexual to asexual of all genders read Yaoi, Yuri and Transgender manga. Especially in the United States those three aren't always about entertaining the heterosexual woman anymore it is becoming a genre that much like slash and femslash is fighting back against cissexism and heteronormativity. A simple sentence mentioning its impact on LGBT people or the fact it is read and watched by people of all genders and sexualities would be sufficient in my eyes however I don't consider it necessary.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 08:12, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Citations removed
It seems that when this article was rewritten by Lionhead99, a lot of citations were removed. How is anyone meant to tell where the info comes from if this happens? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 05:58, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- If an editor knows that a statement was previously sourced, they can track down an old version and copy&paste the ref. If only the ref name is given (and current version doesn't have the ref name), then you ctrl-f to find where the same ref name was used elsewhere in the old version. In one location the full ref is given and you can copy&paste it. That's how I tracked down "McLelland_2000_136" and "Nagaike03" once you told be where you saw those ref names. Cheers, Kirin13 (talk) 08:20, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's important to feel sure that when you're reading an article, the information came from the cited source. I only found it - after it had been missing for almost three years - because I was interested in past versions of the article. Particularly as this article cites books and academic studies and long-dead URLs, and has a lot of citations to boot, that integrity is important. Is there any way to flag this article for checking? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 08:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You can put {{Refimprove}} but that's unlikely to get anything done. You could also request help with this article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga or Portal talk:Anime and Manga. I don't know how helpful that will be. This type of question is good for Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions where editors much more experienced than me can offer suggestions. Cheers, Kirin13 (talk) 09:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's important to feel sure that when you're reading an article, the information came from the cited source. I only found it - after it had been missing for almost three years - because I was interested in past versions of the article. Particularly as this article cites books and academic studies and long-dead URLs, and has a lot of citations to boot, that integrity is important. Is there any way to flag this article for checking? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 08:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- IP, Lionhead99 is a prolific WP:Sockpuppet master. One that I'm very familiar with. How do you know about him having edited this article? How can we be sure that you are not him, especially since you sign your username like he did -- with two dashes in front? Flyer22 (talk) 16:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- The two dashes are added by the software, the button for signatures? If I were this person, why would I be trying to point out his mistakes and spend some time reversing them? Could you please address my concern? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 16:49, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- They are? Either way, many editors, including myself, don't use the two dashes for signatures. In fact, in my several years of editing this site, I see that the vast majority of editors don't use the two dashes for signatures. As for "why would [you] be trying to point out his mistakes and spend some time reversing them?", perhaps because, if you are him, you recognized your mistakes. And/or, if you are him, you want to gain the trust of those who edit this article (especially if they are very familiar with Lionhead99). Such responses are common WP:Sockpuppet responses. Your concern has already been addressed by Kirin13 above, and I see that you also went here about the matter. You still have not answered me regarding your knowledge of Lionhead99 having edited this article. Flyer22 (talk) 17:30, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I found the problems with the article by looking through the history, as I mentioned earlier *on this very page* to Kirin. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 17:35, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Flyer22, clicking on does produce
--~~~~
. The person who responded to IP at the teahouse, MadScientistX11, also used the '--'. I don't think we should use signature signing (especially by a button we encourage new editors to use) as way to argue sockpuppetry. I don't see how IP is harming this article or any evidence of socking, so such accusations are a bit premature. Kirin13 (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I know that others use two dashes in front of their signatures. So does Moonriddengirl, who, in addition to me, has commented on Lionhead99's talk page and is very familiar with Lionhead99. But signatures are a valid way to help catch WP:Sockpuppets; those (including me) who are very experienced with catching them know this. Unless the signature is unique or rare, I don't heavily rely on signatures to prove WP:Sockpuppetry; I use signatures as part of the puzzle in identifying WP:Sockpuppetry. That stated, as you can see, I dropped the WP:Sockpuppet angle regarding the IP; I have not pressed that matter since the IP last responded to me above. Flyer22 (talk) 20:58, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Flyer, I appreciate it. To more fully explain my problem with the article, I can see that during the restructuring, references were removed, but the information from those references was not. As an example, here you can see the removal of a reference for "salt and pepper", which is clearly visible in the source and which is an unusual claim that needs a citation. I am concerned that due to the restructuring, this removal of citations, but not information from those citations, was missed at the time. I have found some instances of this, which I have attempted to repair, with help, but I am concerned that there are more that have not yet been detected. I don't feel confident that even if I went through the article with a fine-toothed comb, (and had the time, resources and energy to do so) I would get them all. As a result of the changes, the ability of readers to check that the information comes from a source has been damaged. If the point of citing everything inline is to help everyone find what information comes from what source, then removing citations without also removing the info that comes from those citations creates the false impression that info comes from the source at the end of the paragraph, when it actually came from another source which was removed. This creates an article which looks good on the surface, but doesn't actually say where it got all of its info from. In a way, this could be seen as accidental plagiarism - the article uses the sources' ideas without saying where the article gets them from. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 21:13, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- So, where to from here? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- removal of citations about a 'beefy' BL subgenre, needs examining --110.20.234.69 (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
removal of 1000 nights imperfect citation
edit removing imperfect citation As it is currently in the article:
As women have greater economic power, commercial demand for the sexualization of men may correlate. Korean comic writer Jin Seok Jeon wrote, "Men are now marketable. It's also a time where women are big consumers and can buy almost anything they desire. Some men think this is degrading...but the tables have turned, and I like the fact that men are just as commercialized now." He jokes that after researching oil wrestling, which requires extreme physical fitness, he does not feel as marketable, illustrating that yaoi and other pornography exploiting men is subject to traditional criticisms, such as sexual objectification, creating unrealistic expectations and negative body images.
Until someone reads the right volume of One Thousand and One Nights (manhwa) this can't be verified (and some of it sounds like a personal theory on the original wiki editor's part rather than the author's), but I felt I should save it here, just in case someone does read the book. I've removed it from the article because it can't be verified, but it could be added back in if someone gets the book. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Red links to NY,NY and Tomoi
New York, New York (manga) is listed at WP:ANIME/REQUEST with a short bibliography of secondary sources (in English), therefore it is notable, verifiable, and would be likely to become an article in the future. In addition, it has several interwiki pages, and the German one has an identifiable reception section. These articles could be translated here. Tomoi (manga), as the first series in the genre to cover issues like AIDS, is similarly discussed in the literature, including a chapter in Dreamland Japan. Google Scholar search. As it has secondary sources, the topic is notable, verifiable, and therefore likely. I don't know why the red links to them should be removed in the main page, because WP:REDLINK states that valid topics should not be delinked, and that having red links in articles improves their likelihood of being created. I've started up a discussion on the talk page of the guideline to get some clarification on this. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2015 (UTC)