98.221.136.220 (talk) |
98.221.136.220 (talk) |
||
Line 167: | Line 167: | ||
::::I will not put up Irish casualties until the discussion at the Easter Rising talk page is resolved. [[Special:Contributions/98.221.136.220|98.221.136.220]] ([[User talk:98.221.136.220|talk]]) 20:16, 21 December 2019 (UTC) |
::::I will not put up Irish casualties until the discussion at the Easter Rising talk page is resolved. [[Special:Contributions/98.221.136.220|98.221.136.220]] ([[User talk:98.221.136.220|talk]]) 20:16, 21 December 2019 (UTC) |
||
:::::Irish casualties will not be added since the discussion at the Easter Rising proved fruitless. Yawn. [[Special:Contributions/98.221.136.220|98.221.136.220]] ([[User talk:98.221.136.220|talk]]) 00:08, 23 December 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:08, 23 December 2019
![]() | Military history: World War I B‑class | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Death B‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 8 sections are present. |
You may {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 3
as Talk:World War I casualties/Archive 2 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.
Wrong numbers
Total casualties “Maths” are wrong change to Min:8,573,054 + 2,250,099 + 5,411,000 = 16,234,153 Max:10,824,236 + 2,250,099 + 6,100,000 = 19,174,335 I’ve also changed the bulgarian population to from 5.5 to 4.3 so the total should be 959.5 Meyers guerras (talk) 19:23, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
- Re: footnote Russia- please read the entire entry. The official figures per the field reports published in 1925 put the total reported dead at 775,400. If you read on Urlanis believes that the figures for those killed were considerably underestimated, because a large part of the reports were lost in retreats. Urlanis estimated the actual total military war dead at 1,811,000 (killed 1,200,000, died of wounds 240,000, gassed 11,000, died from disease 155,000, POW deaths 190,000, deaths due to accidents and other causes 15,000) --
I've just learned about world war 1 in school and they said 17 million people died Puppylover1124126 (talk) 01:36, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
East-Africa
Currently, the table states that the casualties for the "Central-East African Campaign" were 750,000. When I checked the source, it said that it was 750,000 for the entire African theater, including West, North, and South Africa. So either someone needs to change the name to "African Theater" or specify which region of Africa. I lack the knowledge of such editing, so it would be beneficial if someone made this change instead of me.
Thanks, I missed that--Woogie 10w (talk) 14:07, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
Iran Revisited
Considering the wealth of material provided in previous discussions, I believe 2 million Iranian dead should be added to the neutral list.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/world-war-ii-fact-1941-russia-and-britain-invaded-iran-61467
That above link also says 2 million died in Iran during the wartime food shortage. The National Interest is a reliable source. For the skeptics:
1) A military campaign did take place in neutral Iran during World War I between the Russians, British, Germans, and Ottomans, with some minor support from Iranian irregular troops. Look it up. This is mentioned in numerous places on the Internet and in various books and scholarly sources.
2) Food shortages did occur due to seasonal droughts, like most wartime famines, but these were exacerbated by army requisitioning, war profiteering, hoarding, and other wartime conditions.
3)The Spanish Flu certainly played an important part in the deaths, but one cannot simply write off the deadly effects of the famine and disease epidemics prior to the spread of the pandemic starting in late August 1918. The famine began in 1917, and it is beyond reasonable doubt that there were deaths due to the famine and diseases that were unrelated to the Spanish Flu.
4)There is a source, Majd, that is unreliable and gives inaccurate and false information, such as the occurrence of a genocide and the British being responsible for the famine, which is all untrue. None of the above points rely on any of the false information he provides.
Here is a list of sources that discuss the famine, its causes, and the death toll, among other things:
P. Avery; William Bayne Fisher; G. R. G. Hambly; C. Melville, eds. (1990). The Cambridge History of Iran. 7. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521200950.
Ward, Steven R. (2014). Immortal, Updated Edition: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Georgetown University Press. ISBN 9781626160651.
Proctor, Tammy M. (2010). Civilians in a World at War, 1914-1918. NYU Press. ISBN 9780814767153.
Katouzian, Homa (2013). Iran: A Beginner's Guide. Oneworld Publications. ISBN 9781780742731.
Rubin, Barry (2015). The Middle East: A Guide to Politics, Economics, Society and Culture. Routledge. ISBN 9781317455783.
Pollack, Kenneth (2004). The Persian Puzzle: Deciphering the Twenty-five-Year Conflict Between the United States and Iran. Random House Publishing Group. ISBN 9781588364340.
Quotes from the sources:
Rubin 2015, p. 508: "Despite Iran's official neutrality, this pattern of interference continued during World War I as Ottoman-, Russian-, British-, and German-supported local forces fought across Iran, wreaking enormous havoc on the country. With farmland, crops, livestock, and infrastructure destroyed, as many as 2 million Iranians died of famine at the war's end. Although the Russian Revolution of 1917 led to the recall of Russian troops, and thus gave hope to Iranians that the foreign yoke might be relenting, the British quickly moved to fill the vacuum in the north, and by 1918, had turned the country into an unofficial protectorate."
Ward 2014, p. 123: "As the Great War came to its close in the fall of 1918, Iran's plight was woeful. The war had created an economic catastrophe, invading armies had ruined farmland and irrigation works, crops and livestock were stolen or destroyed, and peasants had been taken from their fields and forced to serve as laborers in the various armies. Famine killed as many as two million Iranians out of a population of little more than ten million while an influenza pandemic killed additional tens of thousands."
Katouzian 2013, p. 1934: "Russian Revolution of 1917 brought much relief to Iran after a century of imperial interference and intimidation. But it was followed by severe famine and the Spanish flu pandemic which, combined, took a high toll of around two million, mostly of the Iranian poor."
The Cambridge History of Iran 1990, Vol. 7, p. 209.: "Adding to the disruption and discontent was a terrible famine in 1918–1919, which as usual was worsened by speculators and hoarders."
Proctor 2010, p. 91: "In Persia, as army requisitioning, war profiteering, hoarding and poor harvests combined to decimate the food supply, famine conditions ravaged the area. Reports from foreign officials in Tehran in 1916 and 1917 note shortages of bread and other essential foods, long lines, and rioting by women."
I would like to note that Woogie10w in the above discussions has repeatedly made the erroneous claim that various sources concerning the Persian Famine of 1917-1919 occurred are unreliable and supposed "Iranian propaganda." Perhaps he was referring to the source Majd. In that case, he is correct, as Majd is unreliable and comes up with bogus numbers. However, Woogie10w has made other false claims about the famine. To refute them:
1)"No deaths took place! I checked the population stats for Iran and found that the population increased." This is especially preposterous. The total population of Iran does not need to have a net decrease if 2 million people die. This is similar to stating that no Iraqis died during the Iraq War because Iraqi population actually increased during the war years. There were 100k-500k Iraqis excess-deaths during the 2003-2011 Iraq War, yet Iraqi population steadily increased throughout the whole time. So, according to Woogie10w's logic, no Iraqis died! The whole population does not need to decrease in order for people to die. Thus, it is clearly possible that 2 million people died in Iran while the population increased.
2)"This is Iranian propaganda." This claim, particularly, I don't understand. The sources above contain Western authors and are reliable sources. For example, Kenneth M. Pollack, one of the above sources, was a former CIA analyst and worked for the reputable Brookings Institute; Pollack certainly isn't a fan of Iran, if you look him up. Steven Ward is a Western source as well. And I highly doubt the Cambridge History of Iran to be Iranian propaganda. Woogie10w's claims about propaganda cannot be taken seriously unless he provides some convincing rationale, not just platitudes, as to why these sources contain false information. In addition, none of the sources I've put above claim that the British are singularly responsible for the famine (it had many causes), or that a genocide occurred (none took place). As an aside, it is worthy of mention that the famine is understudied, so finding sources of any kind may be difficult if you would like to check my claims. Note: Both Woogie10w and I agree that Majd is Iranian propaganda and an unreliable source, but I don't rely on Majd to support my argument.
3)"The war only made the famine worse and wasn't the direct cause, therefore it shouldn't be counted." Most wartime famines that are counted in death tolls are caused by natural processes. For example, the Bengal Famine, counted with WWII war dead, can be heavily chalked up to a cyclone that occurred in 1942. The Vietnamese Famine during WW2, which killed some 1-2 million, was due to a typhoon, but the Japanese occupation and subpar French colonial administration hindered famine relief. That famine is counted among the war dead in the WW2 casualties article. The crucial part is that wartime factors considerably worsened the famine and its effects, and famine deaths are thus counted as part of the war. Thus, there is a convincing reason to put the Iranian famine dead in WWI casualties article.
I find my above arguments sufficiently convincing to change the article. If there is no response within a week or so, I will take it upon myself to change the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.136.220 (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds sensible
- So I've made the edits as good as I know how. The only issue is the source citation (I didn't do that part). If somebody could put one of the above sources instead of Wikipedia into the citation, that would wrap things up. 2601:85:C101:BA30:9006:51BD:DFA2:C6DF (talk) 04:51, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
by cause of military casualties
Are there any source to break down military death / casualties during action by cause: such like, say, shelling, gas, machine gun, snipping, gunfire, hand-to-hand, sinking of ships/downing of planes...? I read that Artillery was responsible for most of the killing, and this is sensible, but how much? Gem fr (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Brazil and Siam
Brazil lost civilians during World War I due to German U-boat attacks, and declared war in 1917 against Germany. I think it should be added.98.221.136.220 (talk) 05:45, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
- I found a source[1] that I can use. Let's see what I can do. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 01:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- The Brazil section has been completed, footnotes and source included. If anyone has better sources for Brazil, please help yourself to adding them. I think I'll do Siam next, as it was mentioned in one of the archived talk pages. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 03:02, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- I have completed the Brazil and Siam sections, footnotes and sources included. Seems pretty solid to me. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 03:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Mismatched Numbers
A lot of the numbers on the losses chart just don't add up. I've fixed a couple of them, but there's is too many mistakes for me alone to fix. If someone could pitch in, that would be great. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 05:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Finland, China, and Sweden
Finland was the scene of a civil war in 1918 during World War I. The German Army intervened on behalf of the Finnish Whites in the context of their involvement in the Eastern Front. I'm looking into whether I should add the country or not, depending on its date of declaration of independence, and whether its casualties in the civil war are part of Russian losses. If anybody has anything to say on this topic, please contribute. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 02:34, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
- From what I've read, Finland was a sovereign country recognized by multiple states after its declaration of independence in December 1917. The war lasted from January-May 1918, meaning that it began during the final stages of the Eastern Front in WWI and ended after the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which closed the Eastern Front. As to whether German participation into the civil war is grounds for the losses to be an addition to this article, I believe there is a reasonable case for such an addition. Germany effectively ruled over Finland until Nov. 11 as captured military territory (see Rudiger von der Goltz) and engaged in multiple decisive battles. The Finnish Civil War wasn't an independent conflict, as it received support from the Germans (to the whites) and Soviets (to the reds). Moreover, it should not be considered part of the Russian Civil War as the Soviets weren't attempting to reassert control over Finland; Finland's independence went essentially uncontested. On a separate note, this article has a section on Finnish casualties among Russian troops while the nation was still part of the empire as a grand duchy. Thus, there is a convincing case for adding Finland and its 1918 casualties in respect to its civil war specifically. I will make such an addition once I compile enough information. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 03:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
- I'm having trouble deciding whether Finland as described above during the civil war should be placed in the Allied, Central Powers, or neutral section. If anybody has an informed opinion as to which I should choose, please contribute. In addition, before I add Finland, I will add Chinese civilian casualties during the early Japanese campaigns in the war. These do not include Chinese laborers and workers who died while serving with Allied powers and are counted among the Allied powers' losses. The Chinese source I will be using is located at the bottom of the article. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 05:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- I've wrapped up China, footnotes and source included. My next take is Finland, once I decide in what belligerent category to place it in. 165.230.224.247 (talk) 17:36, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- I've "finished" the Finland section. The numbers there are a rough estimate, I spent hours trying to figure them out with some modicum of specificity. Military and civilian losses may need to be revised later. Help would be appreciated. I'm might make some changes to Sweden, since I discovered that Swedish Brigade volunteer losses aren't counted among the Swedish civilian losses on this page. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 16:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
- Swedish additions have been made to compensate for Swedish volunteers during the Finnish Civil War. This wraps up Finland, Sweden, and China. Finland's numbers probably can be changed if better data is retrieved. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 18:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Spain
I am going to add neutral Spain next since it lost civilians due to the German U-boat campaign. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
- I finished Spain, with footnotes and source included. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 00:28, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
Latin America, The Netherlands, Liberia, and Switzerland
I'm looking into neutral powers and Allied powers from Latin America to see whether those states lost any casualties, probably due to the U-boat campaign. The First Caco War in Haiti seems questionable because I don't know if it could be counted as part of the war. In addition, I will continue to add neutral powers, such as the Netherlands, Switzerland, and any other states that lost men or women during the war. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 00:22, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- I've finished the Netherlands and Switzerland sections, complete with footnotes and sources. On to wrapping up Latin America to the best of my ability. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 00:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- While researching Latin America, I found that Liberia suffered losses as an Allied power. Adding that first. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 01:50, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- The Liberia section is finished, complete with source and footnotes. So far the only Latin country other than Cuba that is of interest (other countries lost ships but sometimes no casualties) is Haiti, which may have lost a boat to the Germans in 1917 or 1918. Looking into that. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 03:02, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- The Haiti section is finished, complete with source and footnotes, though I had to estimate the 1914 population by subtracting the Dominican population from the total for Hispaniola (a better number is probably needed). I personally can't find any more info on losses for any other Latin American country, but there might be some more information that I haven't found. A review or more input on the region would be helpful, especially on Cuba. I also found no military losses for Liberia, but that also might be subject to change. That pretty much wraps it up. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 21:21, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, "98.221.136.220"
A great improvement, adding useful details. --GwydionM (talk) 10:42, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- Your welcome, GwydionM. It's taken some time. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Allied U-boat Losses, Arabian states, and Others
So I've pretty much covered every state I can find. The only other additions I can think of are Allied U-boat losses, which I'll probably have to scrounge around various sources to compile a list, particularly Americans; the Emirate of Nejd and Hasa, allied with the Brits, and the Emirate of Jabal Shammar, allied with the Turks, who fought the Battle of Jarrab, which resulted in losses; and any other losses I or someone else can find, perhaps due to strategic bombing or malnutrition or whatever. Other than these I think I've pretty much exhausted every other country in the world during WWI. This part will probably take a long time since it's hard to find sources regarding these losses. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- I've revised the Finnish section to match the higher numbers in the War Victims database (I misread the numbers earlier). In addition, I tweaked the Swedish section to match the true number of Swedish losses in the Finnish Civil War (also misread this part too). Still trying to find some number on Finnish wounded, help would be welcome. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 17:00, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- I've added all the American U-boat losses I can find, the Prager lynching, and the Black Tom incident to the America section, plus footnotes and sources. I also added Irish civilians casualties to the UK section from the Easter Rising. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 01:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
- I made an addition to the Russian section to account for the Central Asian revolt of 1916, complete with sources and a footnote. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 05:55, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
- I will not put up Irish casualties until the discussion at the Easter Rising talk page is resolved. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Irish casualties will not be added since the discussion at the Easter Rising proved fruitless. Yawn. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 00:08, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- ^ Francisco Verras; "D.N.O.G.: contribuicao da Marinha Brasileira na Grande Guerra" ("DNOG; the role of Brazilian Navy in the Great War") Template:Pt icon "A Noite" Ed. 1920