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:[[WP:RM]] isn't required, and we're already having a discussion so I think it would be redundant. (For controversial moves: ''"It is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: one option is to start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead."'') Plus, there's a huge backlog there. Going to RM would simply delay the proper reversion of a move for which there's (currently) no consensus. Unless we see significant movement in the next 48 hours I'm going to invoke [[WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY]] and decline your request. If you have a problem with this you can request a review at [[WP:MR]]. --[[User:DrFleischman|Dr. Fleischman]] ([[User talk:DrFleischman|talk]]) 20:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC) |
:[[WP:RM]] isn't required, and we're already having a discussion so I think it would be redundant. (For controversial moves: ''"It is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: one option is to start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead."'') Plus, there's a huge backlog there. Going to RM would simply delay the proper reversion of a move for which there's (currently) no consensus. Unless we see significant movement in the next 48 hours I'm going to invoke [[WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY]] and decline your request. If you have a problem with this you can request a review at [[WP:MR]]. --[[User:DrFleischman|Dr. Fleischman]] ([[User talk:DrFleischman|talk]]) 20:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC) |
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::Oh dear. No, that would be invalid. Consensus is absolutely required, and we must be bound by it whether we agree with it or not. Why are you so determined to insist that it is moved to the original and imperfect title? Why does it matter so much to you? Build and obey consensus. Phrases like "Unless [this happens] I will [perform that action]" are not the way Wikipedia works best. [[User:Timtrent|<span style="color:#800">Fiddle</span>]] [[User talk:Timtrent|<span style="color:#070">Faddle</span>]] 00:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC) |
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:RM isn't required for uncontroversial moves, but this isn't an uncontroversial move, and it's highly recommended for controversial moves where talk page discussions haven't reached consensus. The point of RM isn't just to start a discussion, it's to bring in outside eyes who are often more familiar with naming policies than random passers-by are. RM or at least an RFC should be used in pretty much any case where there's a controversial move with no established consensus among talk page participants, which is the case here. I edit conflicted with you, but the passage you quote from RM simply suggests that it's not necessary if consensus has been established on the talk page, and that ''isn't'' the case here. And to be clear: I object to the proposed move back. [[User:Kevin Gorman|Kevin Gorman]] ([[User talk:Kevin Gorman|talk]]) 20:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC) |
:RM isn't required for uncontroversial moves, but this isn't an uncontroversial move, and it's highly recommended for controversial moves where talk page discussions haven't reached consensus. The point of RM isn't just to start a discussion, it's to bring in outside eyes who are often more familiar with naming policies than random passers-by are. RM or at least an RFC should be used in pretty much any case where there's a controversial move with no established consensus among talk page participants, which is the case here. I edit conflicted with you, but the passage you quote from RM simply suggests that it's not necessary if consensus has been established on the talk page, and that ''isn't'' the case here. And to be clear: I object to the proposed move back. [[User:Kevin Gorman|Kevin Gorman]] ([[User talk:Kevin Gorman|talk]]) 20:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:21, 31 October 2013
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Hold the Speedy
By speedy deleting this is looks to me awfully like wikipedia is trying to hide something. AfD would be more appropriate to get a wider opinion. SFC9394 (talk) 18:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
- +1 insightful. 124.149.84.225 (talk) 01:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- +1 Electron9 (talk) 06:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
As a note
I'm certainly going to avoid editing the article, and am not going to express a real opinion as to whether or not it should exist, but Priceline wasn't the only organization that replied to Martin's emails confirming they had used Wiki-PR's services. Colorado Technical University was also named in the VICE article. I would encourage people to not lash out against the articles of Wiki-PR's clients (many of them are named at the SPI/LTA and elsewhere,) as I truly believe many of their clients were unaware they were violating our norms. Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- Otoh, wikipedia can't be blamed for their poor judgment on their part. Electron9 (talk) 07:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- Perfectly true, and I think we should bring up the articles Wiki-PR wrote to our standards, or delete them when necessary. I would just prefer to avoid seeing the revenge-style editing that occasionally happens when a company transgresses our norms. I've talked to a lot of Wiki-PR's clients, and most of them, while ignorant, were well-intentioned. (I haven't started personally repairing articles yet, because I'm waiting to see what happens with WMF, arbcom, functionaries, etc. Plus, repairing all the articles on my list of what they've edited would take quite a while anyway, heh.) In a nutshell, I think we should treat them like we would treat our other articles; bringing them up to our content standards and deleting non-notable ones. Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
This talkpage
We need to discuss the article here, not the business ethics, real or imagined, nor Wikipolitics. Please let us constrain ourselves to creation of a good, decent, unbiased article. Fiddle Faddle 10:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- If this is related to my comments above, I'd like to point out that I did point out a factual error in the article that still hasn't been corrected :p. In a high profile case where revenge editing is likely to occur, I also see nothing wrong with requesting people refrain from doing so on the talk page of an article involved. The article for some reason also uses internsushi as a source, which both fails WP:RS, and is incorrect. (I'm refraining from editing this article directly for fairly obvious reasons.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- It was not related to anyone's comments here in any direct manner. I would have been explicit had it been. I simply see the potential for a huge mess if we do not, ourselves, uphold the standards of this place, both in articles and in their respective talk pages. It is clear that there is an issue with Wikipedia and this organisation and similar organisations. Equally it is clear that this issue should be dealt with quietly and factually in the article if relevant and on the talk page if necessary. Acting in any different manner would be inappropriate.
- The issue itself is being discussed elsewhere, which is, in my view, as it should be. A conclusion will be reached there. Interestingly, using Wikipedia as a citation for itself in discussing that issue within this article would be using an unreliable source. We have, therefore, a set of interesting article writing dilemmas to face. That was the basis of my message. Fiddle Faddle 23:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- Where is this "is being discussed elsewhere" ? Electron9 (talk) 09:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
- There is a banner at the head of the pages on WP which has details of a major discussion of Wikipedia and paid editing. I have dismissed it for myself, so can no longer see the location, though I did contribute to it. I commend the discussion to you. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to add the link to it here? Fiddle Faddle 09:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
- Where is this "is being discussed elsewhere" ? Electron9 (talk) 09:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Notability
As a company, Wiki-PR doesn't seem to be notable on its own and doesn't pass WP:CORP. This article seems to be more about the kerfuffle around the Morning277 sockpuppet investigation than the company itself. I don't dispute that the incident received significant coverage in reliable sources, so I propose we move this article to a title that focuses on the editing controversy itself, as it would better reflect the content here. I'm thinking something along the lines of Wiki-PR editing scandal or Wiki-PR sockpuppet controversy. Gobōnobō + c 00:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree.--Vigyanitalkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 05:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- WIth the caveat that Wikipedia reporting upon Wikipedia feels rather like condoning incest, I half agree, but suggest we consider widening it to include all paid editing. Fiddle Faddle 08:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- We do have an article for conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia. Gobōnobō + c 11:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- I was unaware of that, and have started a discussion on the talk page there about the concept of a merge of this article into it. The merge banner on the article(s) leads to that discussion directly. To me it appears to be an ideal home, and also a great place for the discussion. Fiddle Faddle 11:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- We do have an article for conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia. Gobōnobō + c 11:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- WIth the caveat that Wikipedia reporting upon Wikipedia feels rather like condoning incest, I half agree, but suggest we consider widening it to include all paid editing. Fiddle Faddle 08:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Now that readers find out about this army of socketpuppys that perhaps is directed by a small company. They will most likely want to find out what this formally small company with huge consequences is. So make a article on paid bad editing, but link here. Notability is not always straightforward. And removing this article is of course a self serving interest for this company.. Electron9 (talk) 19:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- @Electron9: While I understand the points you are making, WIkipedia is not a news medium, but is a rather staid and sedate encyclopaedia. Wiki-PR is a PR company. If it is inherently notable it should have an article, but that article must not be a WP:COATRACK, which this one is at present. Fiddle Faddle 23:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
I have moved this article to Wiki-PR editing of Wikipedia given the concerns about the notability of the company. This way our subject is a direct match to the news coverage, so there shouldn't be a problem from a WP:GNG perspective. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:45, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
sources & factual accuracy
Please guys, pay close attention to both the quality of sources you use and what the sources actually say. Wiki-PR doesn't have 45 employees, doesn't have two offices, and the 'Wikimedia Foudation' didn't block anyone's user account. The community of the English Wikipedia did. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- Can you cite what the sources are saying on the employees and the offices then? All I could find and cite was from their website, which should be alright as I have been somewhat using the JESS3 article for assistance in improving this page as a "PR" article instead of the current one. --Super Goku V (talk) 00:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- They previously had an office in SF, they now do in Austin. You will find some old social media postings etc that reference their SF office, but it no longer exists (and isn't mentioned in the source cited.) Per WP:SPS, self published sources are only acceptable without caveat for claims that are not unduly self-serving, are not exceptional claims, and where we have no reason to doubt their veracity. Claiming they have 45 employees including Wikipedia administrators is an exceptional claim that we have plenty of reason to doubt the veracity of, hence wiki-pr.com is not a RS for the statement that they have 45 employees. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are correct that the info isn't listed in the source since I used the wrong one. (Figures.) The line I am referring to on that page is, "Adam manages sales and business development from Wiki-PR's office in San Francisco, California." You did mention that they did close their SF office, so I will try to dig that up. For the second part, why can we say that they have 25 employees, but not 45 specifically? (Some of those employees likely don't have any Wikipedia experience, but do have something that benefits their organization.) --Super Goku V (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'd be equally skeptical about citing without caveat a claim that they had 25 employees. When a source makes claims that are both exceptional and self-serving, all information from that source should be treated skeptically - and their website certainly makes claims that are exceptional and self-serving. Per WP:SPS, they really shouldn't be used as a source for anything but the most basic info about themselves (like Jordan French as CEO) without it being explicitly disclaimed as 'Wiki-PR tates that they have 45 employees,' etc. I don't know if anything about their move is currently in an RS, but would expect at least one RS to mention that they no longer have a physical office in SF in the near future, and will drop by with it when it appears. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- According to this LinkedIn profile, they appear to hold the office in the San Francisco Bay Area. While it cannot be cited, it might help to limit the range of the search if correct as this had to be edited sometime around April of this year. (It is the most I have right now.) --Super Goku V (talk) 02:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'd be equally skeptical about citing without caveat a claim that they had 25 employees. When a source makes claims that are both exceptional and self-serving, all information from that source should be treated skeptically - and their website certainly makes claims that are exceptional and self-serving. Per WP:SPS, they really shouldn't be used as a source for anything but the most basic info about themselves (like Jordan French as CEO) without it being explicitly disclaimed as 'Wiki-PR tates that they have 45 employees,' etc. I don't know if anything about their move is currently in an RS, but would expect at least one RS to mention that they no longer have a physical office in SF in the near future, and will drop by with it when it appears. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:03, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are correct that the info isn't listed in the source since I used the wrong one. (Figures.) The line I am referring to on that page is, "Adam manages sales and business development from Wiki-PR's office in San Francisco, California." You did mention that they did close their SF office, so I will try to dig that up. For the second part, why can we say that they have 25 employees, but not 45 specifically? (Some of those employees likely don't have any Wikipedia experience, but do have something that benefits their organization.) --Super Goku V (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- They previously had an office in SF, they now do in Austin. You will find some old social media postings etc that reference their SF office, but it no longer exists (and isn't mentioned in the source cited.) Per WP:SPS, self published sources are only acceptable without caveat for claims that are not unduly self-serving, are not exceptional claims, and where we have no reason to doubt their veracity. Claiming they have 45 employees including Wikipedia administrators is an exceptional claim that we have plenty of reason to doubt the veracity of, hence wiki-pr.com is not a RS for the statement that they have 45 employees. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- As a general note, this article is an annoyance for several commercial entities so any editing or suggestion to do so should be viewed with this in mind. Electron9 (talk) 00:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
What became the Morning277 sock-puppet investigation began in August 2012, not in 2008. Here is the first revision.
There's now a Wall Street Journal article about the company. {{cite news | author = Geoffrey A. Fowler | title = Wikipedia Probes Suspicious Promotional Articles | publisher = Wall Street Journal | url = http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/10/21/wikipedia-probes-suspicious-promotional-articles/ | date = 2013-10-21 | archiveurl = http://web.archive.org/web/20131022115158/http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/10/21/wikipedia-probes-suspicious-promotional-articles/ | archivedate = 2013-10-22 | accessdate = 2013-10-23}} —rybec 11:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed the year to 2012. —rybec 02:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Cleanup
I cleaned up this article. Any productive comments about my content changes? (No griping about banners, please start a separate section for that jazz.) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Banners
I have no intention of griping about banners. I have simply reinstated the merge banner designed to reach consensus at the target article talk page, which you have removed unilaterally. Thwarting the consensus building process by summary removal during building of consensus is wholly inappropriate. Fiddle Faddle 13:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Move to Wiki-PR editing of Wikipedia
I think the move is probably a good thing (0.8 probability) though am not entirely convinced. As the article stands at present it is most assuredly about Wiki-PR editing of Wikipedia instead of being about Wiki-PR itself. Fiddle Faddle 13:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- Woohoo. Progress. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:52, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this move. It's non-standard and rather obtuse. We have lots and lots of articles about businesses that are notable only for one thing, yet the title of the article is the name of the business. (And has anyone actually confirmed that there isn't a single reliable source that isn't about editing Wikipedia?) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:42, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- It does seem akin to moving Acme Widgets to Acme Widgets' manufacturing of widgets. —rybec 20:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- May I suggest that instead of playing the move and counter move game [I know we will not be doing that], we now hold a discussion here for the correct name of the article, since we have one definite oppose opinion. I remain on the fence, but 80% in favour Fiddle Faddle 21:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- Yes please. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:47, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- May I suggest that instead of playing the move and counter move game [I know we will not be doing that], we now hold a discussion here for the correct name of the article, since we have one definite oppose opinion. I remain on the fence, but 80% in favour Fiddle Faddle 21:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - The article was for the company called Wiki-PR, not just the controversy that they caused on Wikipedia. If a reader heard about Wiki-PR, and likely since this has been in at least a BBC article, they would have a difficult time finding information about the company itself. Not to mention the fact that this was done without any discussion and that the current revision would be the same as a section on the Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia article. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:29, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a slightly atypical move... but the problem you point out is easily fixable with a redirect from Wiki-PR to this article. There's no reason why this title should make it harder for readers to find info than the original title would. Please note, I'm not taking a position on the move, just pointing out that the problem you forsee is easily avoidable. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- It isn't a redirect problem, but a content problem. If a user wanted to find information on the company, outside of the controversy, they would be unable to since there is no background section on the article since the edits by Biosthmors. They will find this page easily, but they will find nothing of what they would want to find, unless it was directly connected to the controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Goku V (talk • contribs) 16:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't follow. I don't remember removing any content (that wasn't already marked as dubious), I just thought the article was better off without unnecessary sections. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are not just suppose to remove information marked dubious, especially when we were engaging in a discussion on the talk page about it. To note, you did remove content that wasn't marked dubious, specifically the whole first paragraph of the Background section and the tags you removed from the top of the article. In addition, it wasn't as if the section was unnecessary, only when you decided on your own to move the article without a discussion. To clarify my stance, your edits are welcome, but I am displeased by how you conducted them. Wikipedia is about having a consensus on decision, not major decisions by one user. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Here's the diff. WP:Bold exists. What content was removed you think should stay? Wasn't the information I removed self-serving and self-published? It was, according to my memory. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Mostly, my problem is that I felt that this was pushing into WP:OWN. I just would like a discussion on if your edits should be in place or not, not a drawn out conversation over what I am opposed to. As I said above, we were discussing the content on another talk section and was working to make sure everything was alright with it. Especially since it can be assumed that they are the Primary source for their own material. (See: The Human Stain and Philip Roth for more.) --Super Goku V (talk) 17:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand this concern. Does someone else understand it? Maybe they can explain it to me in another way. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Simply put, the move was forced. The controversy was made as the only focus about the article, even though there can be articles about organizations that are notable for only a single major event. There wasn't even a shred of discussion before it happened. Some users are opposed to the original move, myself included. In order to be moved back, we need to have a discussion on it. I am attempting to participate in the discussion, but seem to be getting pushed into other discussions. The article started as a company article. It had information that was balanced between the controversy and the company itself. Now, the whole article barely states anything about the company, except what the controversy is about. There isn't even any real mention of why they did this, to profit from the edits. Any readers would need to find other sources to understand how and why Wiki-PR attempts to operate. People understand that there is a controversy, but they might not know anything else about them. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand this concern. Does someone else understand it? Maybe they can explain it to me in another way. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Mostly, my problem is that I felt that this was pushing into WP:OWN. I just would like a discussion on if your edits should be in place or not, not a drawn out conversation over what I am opposed to. As I said above, we were discussing the content on another talk section and was working to make sure everything was alright with it. Especially since it can be assumed that they are the Primary source for their own material. (See: The Human Stain and Philip Roth for more.) --Super Goku V (talk) 17:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Here's the diff. WP:Bold exists. What content was removed you think should stay? Wasn't the information I removed self-serving and self-published? It was, according to my memory. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are not just suppose to remove information marked dubious, especially when we were engaging in a discussion on the talk page about it. To note, you did remove content that wasn't marked dubious, specifically the whole first paragraph of the Background section and the tags you removed from the top of the article. In addition, it wasn't as if the section was unnecessary, only when you decided on your own to move the article without a discussion. To clarify my stance, your edits are welcome, but I am displeased by how you conducted them. Wikipedia is about having a consensus on decision, not major decisions by one user. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't follow. I don't remember removing any content (that wasn't already marked as dubious), I just thought the article was better off without unnecessary sections. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- It isn't a redirect problem, but a content problem. If a user wanted to find information on the company, outside of the controversy, they would be unable to since there is no background section on the article since the edits by Biosthmors. They will find this page easily, but they will find nothing of what they would want to find, unless it was directly connected to the controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Goku V (talk • contribs) 16:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a slightly atypical move... but the problem you point out is easily fixable with a redirect from Wiki-PR to this article. There's no reason why this title should make it harder for readers to find info than the original title would. Please note, I'm not taking a position on the move, just pointing out that the problem you forsee is easily avoidable. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Possible names
- Wiki-PR (original)
- Wiki-PR editing of Wikipedia (current)
- Wiki-PR Wikipedia editing
- Inappropriate editing of Wikipedia by Wiki-PR
- Wiki-PR editing scandal
- Wiki-PR editing controversy
Discussion
Is there consensus that Wiki-PR is a notable company? If so, then we can move it back to that name. I personally favor "Inappropriate editing of Wikipedia by Wiki-PR" if we're going to have a long descriptive summary name of the recent media coverage. I dislike the word controversy, as I think it is a lazy-man's (and possibly non-neutral) word. The word controversy implies that someone is saying Wiki-PR's edits that are the subject of the article were appropriate. Are there any reliable sources that state as much? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Wiki-PR has been featured in several reliable sources and is therefore a notable company per WP:CORP. The title of this article should therefore be... Wiki-PR. Consistent with WP:NCCORP, as well as every other business's article. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but it concerns me that this article is stand-alone. I am concerned this can be construed as an "attack article." This whole episode is damaging enough without an article like this. I think it should be part of Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia. Coretheapple (talk) 18:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- What do you mean, an attack article? We reflect what reliable sources say. Anything that reflects what reliable sources say, is neutral, and follows the notability guideline can't be an attack article by definition. It's something else: an encylopedia article. The company was roundly criticized in the press for inappropriate editing, according to Wikipedia's standards. I don't even see a tiny shred for a legitimate concern for this being an attack article. And it wasn't just COI editing. It was also sockpuppetry. There isn't enough overlap for a merge. I'm OK with a move back to Wiki-PR if the consensus is that the company is notable. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:23, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- I do not perceive Wiki-PR to be notable, not even notable for the event. The event, however, is notable, something which seems to be a paradox. I am in favour of an article title which reflects the event unless and until the corporation is, itself, notable. Fiddle Faddle 15:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Coretheapple and Fiddle Faddle, we really ought to make decisions on this article based on WP policy/guidelines to avoid being accused of pro-WP (or anti-WP) bias. Could you please cite specific policies or guidelines that support your position? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- WP:GNG is the sole guideline that concerns me. Fiddle Faddle 08:16, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- WP:ATTACK. People who are outraged about what happened here should work as I have to ban paid editing, not to using Wikipedia article space in this fashion. Coretheapple (talk) 14:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- ? No outrage here, and no evidence provided. Is this a simple I don't like it comment? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm equally confused. What do these policies have to do with the title of the article? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Because the corporation is not notable it may not have an article about itself with its name as the title. If it did then it would be deleted as a non notable corporation (or renamed as this one has been done). If there is a notable incident that features the corporation, even if it is not a notable corporation, the article may include the name of the corporation in its title. This is in line, for example, with people whose murder is notable but they are not themselves notable. In all cases there are exceptions. Wiki-PR is not one of them in my view. Fiddle Faddle 10:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- That issue is already essentially settled; most editors both here and at Talk:Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia#Proposed_merge_with_Wiki-PR agree that Wiki-PR satisfies the GNG/CORP standard, and you haven't produced any evidence to the contrary. One critical flaw in your murder victims analogy is that only a tiny, tiny number of notable people are known just for being murdered; most people are known for something else. Whereas most notable companies are known for the business they practice. No difference here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is impossible to produce evidence that something is not notable. Think about it! Fiddle Faddle 22:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's not impossible. If "X" is under discussion and no significant coverage of "X" is found on Google News, LexisNexis, Google Scholar, or MIT's library for instance, that would be pretty good evidence that "X" was unlikely to be notable. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is impossible to produce evidence that something is not notable. Think about it! Fiddle Faddle 22:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- That issue is already essentially settled; most editors both here and at Talk:Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia#Proposed_merge_with_Wiki-PR agree that Wiki-PR satisfies the GNG/CORP standard, and you haven't produced any evidence to the contrary. One critical flaw in your murder victims analogy is that only a tiny, tiny number of notable people are known just for being murdered; most people are known for something else. Whereas most notable companies are known for the business they practice. No difference here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Please use an RM before deciding on a move. Otherwise, sometimes people get cranky. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- It also appears some people get cranky if you actually follow WP:Be bold and edit a page. Scary, no? I wonder, sometimes, why people who overreact in that fashion participate on this website. Here's to your future, Wikipedia! Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Call for additional input
I think we're close to consensus to move this article back to "Wiki-PR", but we're not quite there. Anyone else willing to give their two cents? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
banter
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- I'm going to be bold and note I've stopped taking this issue seriously, because it's dropped on my personal priority list. I think the article is fine, and our attention would be better focused elsewhere. I say this because I'm thinking about the readers. Would any random reader of this article be pissed off or dissatisfied with the current structure/content? I'll boldly note that I think not. Moving on. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- If we don't reach consensus then we should revert back to "Wiki-PR" per WP:NOCONSENSUS. However I wouldn't call the discussion dead quite yet; let's give it a couple more days. If you don't want to participate any further then you're certainly not obligated to do so. (Btw I'm with you re WP:BOLD.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:10, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Please use a requested move to gather more input before trying to move the page again one way or the other. Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- WP:RM isn't required, and we're already having a discussion so I think it would be redundant. (For controversial moves: "It is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: one option is to start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead.") Plus, there's a huge backlog there. Going to RM would simply delay the proper reversion of a move for which there's (currently) no consensus. Unless we see significant movement in the next 48 hours I'm going to invoke WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY and decline your request. If you have a problem with this you can request a review at WP:MR. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- Oh dear. No, that would be invalid. Consensus is absolutely required, and we must be bound by it whether we agree with it or not. Why are you so determined to insist that it is moved to the original and imperfect title? Why does it matter so much to you? Build and obey consensus. Phrases like "Unless [this happens] I will [perform that action]" are not the way Wikipedia works best. Fiddle Faddle 00:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
- RM isn't required for uncontroversial moves, but this isn't an uncontroversial move, and it's highly recommended for controversial moves where talk page discussions haven't reached consensus. The point of RM isn't just to start a discussion, it's to bring in outside eyes who are often more familiar with naming policies than random passers-by are. RM or at least an RFC should be used in pretty much any case where there's a controversial move with no established consensus among talk page participants, which is the case here. I edit conflicted with you, but the passage you quote from RM simply suggests that it's not necessary if consensus has been established on the talk page, and that isn't the case here. And to be clear: I object to the proposed move back. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- RM clearly contradicts you, but no matter -- if you want to continue the discussion there, fine. Please notify me and the other participants if you do. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I would rather not formulate the RM/RfC text myself because I can perceived as having a significant COI w/r/t to this article, but I object to any further move that doesn't go through an RM or an RFC. I would appreciate it if you or another more neutral party would formulate the RM or RfC text and post it as one. If no one else does, I will myself, but that's not a great idea. Controversial moves benefit from discussion that involve parties that don't have pre-existing involvement with an article. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Potential sources from Talk:Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia
- Largest sockpuppet bust in Wikipedia history traces back to paid editing for hire firm 'Wiki-PR' --Ocaasi t | c 15:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Original Daily Dot article: [1]
- Sue Gardener's WMF statement: [http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/10/21/sue-gardner-response-paid-advocacy-editing/}
- The Verge coverage: [2]
- Wikipedia Signpost: [3] and [4]
- Vice coverage: [5] and [6]
- Time: [7]
- WSJ: [8]
- BBC: [9]
- Infoworld: [10]
- Ars: [11]
- Wikipedia [12] [13] [14] [15]
- WikiExperts ban and ban appeal [16], [17]