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::: "If East Germany has one"?! How childish. The first and only free elected GDR parliament has decided to dissolve the GDR in order to join the FR Germany. There was and is no "symmetry" between these two countries, as the informal naming with West and East suggests to simple minds. The GDR has vanished, while the FR Germany still exists, enlarged. "Based on what" do you want to declare the FR Germany a former country? Any (reliable!) sources it has ceased to exist, while chancellor and president etc. stayed in their offices for years to come after 1990? Just like the [[Territorial evolution of the United States|USA has grown from 13 to 50 states]], the FRG has grown from 10 to 16 states. Do you really want to create a separate article for each intermediate entity, and declare it a former country with a colorful template? -- [[User:Matthead|Matthead]] [[User_talk:Matthead|<font style="color:#ffff00;background:#0000cc;"><small> Discuß </small></font>]] 22:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC) |
::: "If East Germany has one"?! How childish. The first and only free elected GDR parliament has decided to dissolve the GDR in order to join the FR Germany. There was and is no "symmetry" between these two countries, as the informal naming with West and East suggests to simple minds. The GDR has vanished, while the FR Germany still exists, enlarged. "Based on what" do you want to declare the FR Germany a former country? Any (reliable!) sources it has ceased to exist, while chancellor and president etc. stayed in their offices for years to come after 1990? Just like the [[Territorial evolution of the United States|USA has grown from 13 to 50 states]], the FRG has grown from 10 to 16 states. Do you really want to create a separate article for each intermediate entity, and declare it a former country with a colorful template? -- [[User:Matthead|Matthead]] [[User_talk:Matthead|<font style="color:#ffff00;background:#0000cc;"><small> Discuß </small></font>]] 22:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC) |
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:::: I agree with [[user:Tomeasy]], there was no consensus for removing the infobox. Seems that [[user:Matthead]] is POV pushing a little bit. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 23:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC) |
:::: I agree with [[user:Tomeasy]], there was no consensus for removing the infobox. Seems that [[user:Matthead]] is POV pushing a little bit. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 23:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC) |
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::::: And [[User:Loosmark]] is editwarring a big bit. As usual. Go elsewhere. -- [[User:Matthead|Matthead]] [[User_talk:Matthead|<font style="color:#ffff00;background:#0000cc;"><small> Discuß </small></font>]] 00:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC) |
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German reunification
... it is wrong that East Germany has become part of West Germany - at the 3rd of October 1990 East Germany as well as West Germany desisted from existing - the territory of East Germany acceded to the ambit of the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany - the Basic Law was changed into the constitution of Germany.
Citius Altius Fortius 08:06, 1 July 2005 (CEST)
This information is wrong, the GDR joined the BRD under the article 23 of the Basic Law, therefore the GDR desisted from existing the BRD still exist see German Wiki and the preamble of the German Basic Law http://www.bpb.de/wissen/89EEKH,0,0,Pr%E4ambel.html. Therefore I will delete the last sentence. (sorry for my unregisteration)
"Infobox Former Country" removed
The use of "Infobox Former Country" is utterly wrong, as the Federal Republic of Germany still exists, having grown in 1957 by 1 and in 1990 by 5 states, similar to the USA which has grown several times, e. g. by two states in 1959, see List of U.S. states by date of statehood. Nobody would claim that the USA ceased to exist in 1958. Thus the infobox is removed, and data is moved into a separate section. -- Matthead discuß! O 16:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Before those actions please first discuss here!
- The Infobox itself is advantageous. You are right about the name of the Infobox ("Former Country"), but the name is negligibly. --Orangerider 19:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've repeatedly used this talk page, which can not be said about you. The Infobox as such does not apply, as it claims that it the Federal Republic of Germany ceased to exist in 1990, which is utterly wrong. The use of the box is unacceptable, it contradicts facts. -- Matthead discuß! O 20:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- The Infobox is applied to the political occurances in West Germany; the several references in the acticle already show that the German state is and was always the identically very same until today and that it didn't cease to exist in 1990, but kept to exist in 1945, 1949 and 1990. --Orangerider 20:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- As the section above proves, and many other remarks elsewhere, too many people just don't get it, they either believe that West Germany does not exist anymore, or that it was merged on equal terms with East Germany. Same for German national football team, some insist they never won a World Cup, but West Germany did three times!
- If any data that is listed in such a infobox is needed, then it can be included separately. For example, a comparison of the area and population would be interesting - but then this would belong in a different article, like History of Germany since 1945, where most of this article should be moved to anyway. It's enough to explain the informal use of "West Germany" with a few sentences and a map here. -- Matthead discuß! O 01:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- You seem to be very intent on promoting one particular point of view that, clearly, not everyone agrees with. It's not a matter of "getting it," it's a matter of not agreeing with you. --Reuben 01:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- So why does not everyone agree with simple facts (and my view)? Why do people insist on odd misconceptions? West Germany is not an informal name, it is a misinformational one, leading to gross mistakes - see the use of "Infobox Former Country" for a country that still exists, enlarged by about 25%. It would be funny to apply this infobox also to the many USofAs that ceased to exist when additional states joined the Union which even altered its flag on every occasion. The only useful(?) information of "West Germany" is "Hey, don't forget, a separate communist East German state existed once, too". -- Matthead discuß! O 03:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- You seem to be very intent on promoting one particular point of view that, clearly, not everyone agrees with. It's not a matter of "getting it," it's a matter of not agreeing with you. --Reuben 01:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- The Infobox is applied to the political occurances in West Germany; the several references in the acticle already show that the German state is and was always the identically very same until today and that it didn't cease to exist in 1990, but kept to exist in 1945, 1949 and 1990. --Orangerider 20:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've repeatedly used this talk page, which can not be said about you. The Infobox as such does not apply, as it claims that it the Federal Republic of Germany ceased to exist in 1990, which is utterly wrong. The use of the box is unacceptable, it contradicts facts. -- Matthead discuß! O 20:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe it would help if you could distinguish between the concepts "West Germany" and "Federal Republic". The Federal Republic (the political entity) continues to exist, even though in different borders. West Germany (the geographical and cultural entitiy) ceased to exist, because the situation of a divided Germany, which defined East and West Germany, has come to an end. Your comparison with the expansion of the United States is misleading, because this process wasn't a reunification of a divided country, but gradual expansion into territories that never belonged to the US before. Anorak2 04:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that what you really want is to change the title, but there's a clear consensus against it. We can make it clear that the FRG state was continuous and grew to encompass the former East German lands without devoting the whole intro to attacking the idea of West Germany as a distinct entity, which is basically what it does now. --Reuben 05:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- I have removed the Infobox: Former Country; on the grounds that officially it's the same country, simply larger. When Saarland was returned to the Federal republic, one would not say that there was a completely new county. And nor was it a new country when what was the democratic republic of Germany disolved and land joined the federal republic. --Île_flottante~Floating island (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the infobox is extremely misleading, especially the lists of former chancellors and presidents which suggest a break in 1990 are utterly wrong and nonsensical. West Germany is not a former country, it's an unofficial term that was used during the Cold War for a country which still exist and has existed continously since it was formed as the North German Confederation in 1867. As a state, there is a full continuity, there is no question over this as far as constitional law is concerned. Lists of former office holders belong in separate articles, and they don't end in 1990. UweBayern (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- Info box is correct.--Jacurek (talk) 19:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- User:Jacurek, who has never edited this article before, is wikistalking me, reverting my edits in an attempt to provoke me. He and other Polish editors are under scrutiny by Arbcom Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. -- Matthead Discuß 19:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Matthead this a a proper Info-box that was here forever and there is not a consensus on removing it. The fact that you and UweBayern don't like it is not a consensus.--Jacurek (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reliable sources would be needed for inclusion the claim that Germany does not exist anymore. Good luck with finding some. -- Matthead Discuß 20:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Info-box contains tons of important information including maps, list of all presidents since 1949, chancellors etc. It is a proper info-box used in all other articles. You can not remove the whole box because you don't like it. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 20:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Nonsense, the infobox is cluttered with arbitrary incomplete stuff. "list of all presidents since 1949"? Those President of Germany elected since 1990 are missing. Stop your wikistalking, Jacurek. -- Matthead Discuß 20:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- President of Germany elected after 1990 should not be there because the country does not exist anymore. It is all explained in the info-box you keep removing.--Jacurek (talk) 20:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Nonsense, the infobox is cluttered with arbitrary incomplete stuff. "list of all presidents since 1949"? Those President of Germany elected since 1990 are missing. Stop your wikistalking, Jacurek. -- Matthead Discuß 20:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Info-box contains tons of important information including maps, list of all presidents since 1949, chancellors etc. It is a proper info-box used in all other articles. You can not remove the whole box because you don't like it. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 20:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reliable sources would be needed for inclusion the claim that Germany does not exist anymore. Good luck with finding some. -- Matthead Discuß 20:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Matthead this a a proper Info-box that was here forever and there is not a consensus on removing it. The fact that you and UweBayern don't like it is not a consensus.--Jacurek (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- User:Jacurek, who has never edited this article before, is wikistalking me, reverting my edits in an attempt to provoke me. He and other Polish editors are under scrutiny by Arbcom Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. -- Matthead Discuß 19:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- (out) Why don't you guys consider listing a request for input at WP:Third opinion or WT:WikiProject Germany. That is going to be a lot more productive than continuing to go in circles around one another. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 21:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, Rjanag, for your suggestion, but it comes a little late (about two years). This (and related problems like many sport teams) was discussed several times (see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Germany/Archive_11#The_old_West_Germany_-_Germany_problem, Wikipedia_talk:German-speaking_Wikipedians'_notice_board#.22West_Germany.22_again, and talk archives), and it is listed on Wikipedia:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. Also, what do you expect from people who claim that my country does not exist anymore since 1990, or has been founded only in 1990? -- Matthead Discuß 21:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
misleading introduction?
I read this article and immediately saw a confusing introduction. The first paragraph states "From 1990 onwards, the Federal Republic of Germany has been exclusively known as Germany." No, the Federal Republic of Germany is still the Federal Republic of Germany. Maybe it was meant to read "After 1990, the offical name of West Germany, the Federal Republic of Germany, was used as the official name for the reunified Germany." Chergles (talk) 19:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
- Pretty much this article is in a little limbo between facts and perceived facts. What we do know for sure is that in general usage the term "West Germany" was used for the Federal Republic of Germany until the unification. Since then it has been called Germany but is still the same (albeit a little larger) Federal Republic. Agathoclea (talk) 19:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Tried to fix the mistake and entered the facts- By changing the incorrect West Germany was formed to the correct: The Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Federal Republic of Germany (simply referred to as West Germany..) much of the obvious mistake would be corrected and explained, that West Germany is only a common everyday term, but as you can see, soon the incorrect term was entered again. I wonder what the reason is why people at wikipedia prefer mistakes?
Definetely needs fixing An Observer (70.133.74.161 (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC))
- As long as this article is named West Germany, there is nothing wrong in using this short hand term. I do not see a justification for a move either, since this term is indeed very common.
- As to the IP's edit, which I reverted, it did nothing else than repeating what is already stated in the first paragraph of the lead: To give the formal title of West Germany in English and German. This is certainly not the way to go. Means, we cannot specify the official denomination upon every use of the articles name.
- Note that this is the English Wikipedia, after giving the official German denomination in the first sentence of the article, we do not need to repeat this.
- Despite all this, I feel that you (the IP 70...) would be an enrichment to the Wikipedia project. Therefore, I want to encourage you to get an account (in less than 5 min) and become a full-fledged member. Tomeasy T C 09:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The Federal Republic of Germany was also often known as simply Germany before 1990 in western countries. It was a more politically correct term from a western point of view, and was also used when it was clear from the context anyway that one referred to West Germany.
"From the 1990 reunification onwards, the Federal Republic of Germany has been exclusively known as Germany in common usage." hopefully avoids any misunderstandings. UweBayern (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Correct map?
Did someone notice that the map isn't entirely correct? I am quite sure that something went wrong here. East Germany looks much bigger than it actually was... any suggestion on how to obtain a correct map? teutsch (talk) 12:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- How is it wrong? Looks pretty much like the (different) map at New Länder. Rd232 talk 17:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Edit warring
I have protected this page because there appears to be edit warring between Jacurek, Matthead, and Florian over the infobox. I see no "consensus" either way on the talk page, so all sides need to discuss this more before reverting one another and making claims to 'consensus' that does not exist. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 20:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Infobox and all that...
Federal Republic of Germany [Bundesrepublik Deutschland] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) | |||||||||||
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1949–1990 (Reunification) | |||||||||||
Motto: [Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) Unity and Justice and Freedom | |||||||||||
Anthem: [Das Lied der Deutschen] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) The Song of the Germans | |||||||||||
Capital | Bonn | ||||||||||
Largest city | Hamburg | ||||||||||
Common languages | German | ||||||||||
Government | Federal Parliamentary republic | ||||||||||
• 1949–1959 | Theodor Heuss | ||||||||||
• 1959–1969 | Heinrich Lübke | ||||||||||
• 1969–1974 | Gustav Heinemann | ||||||||||
• 1974–1979 | Walter Scheel | ||||||||||
• 1979–1984 | Karl Carstens | ||||||||||
• 1984–1994 | Richard von Weizsäcker | ||||||||||
Chancellor | |||||||||||
• 1949–1963 | Konrad Adenauer | ||||||||||
• 1963–1966 | Ludwig Erhard | ||||||||||
• 1966–1969 | Kurt Georg Kiesinger | ||||||||||
• 1969–1974 | Willy Brandt | ||||||||||
• 1974–1982 | Helmut Schmidt | ||||||||||
• 1982–1998 | Helmut Kohl | ||||||||||
Historical era | Cold War | ||||||||||
May 23 1949 | |||||||||||
• Reunification 1990 | 1990 (Reunification) | ||||||||||
Population | |||||||||||
• 1990 | 63,254,000 [citation needed] | ||||||||||
Currency | German mark (DEM) | ||||||||||
Time zone | UTC+1 (CET) | ||||||||||
• Summer (DST) | UTC+2 (CEST) | ||||||||||
Calling code | 49 | ||||||||||
Internet TLD | .de | ||||||||||
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There's a basic situation which is not all too difficult to understand (unless you live in some nationalistic cloud-cuckoo-land):
- This article is about an entity which was called "West Germany" (see title), and this entity does not exist anymore. That might not be "reality" in some people's minds, but that is the topic of this article.
- There are thus only two possibilities:
a) the article remains; thus, it is about a former country, and thus, it deserves an infobox.
b) those who claim that "West Germany" is not a former country, or that it technically never existed, will have to nominate the entire article for deletion. Wikipedia shouldn't have articles on things that don't or didn't exist.
Pick your poison.
Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
- A false dichotomy. It's a history article. As for "Wikipedia shouldn't have articles on things that don't or didn't exist" - well, start working your way through AfD'ing Category:German and Scandinavian legendary creatures, List of fictional countries and see how far you get. Knepflerle (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- We should keep cool head here, the problem is the article's title. West Germany is just an often used term to describe the Federal Republic of Germany in 1949-90 just like some people used Russia or Soviet-Russia for the Soviet Union. "West Germany" has never been the official name of any country and as such never existed. In fact the article covers the History of the Federal Republic of Germany (1949-1990) and this country of course still exists. HerkusMonte (talk) 09:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- The country was usually known as "West Germany" in English same as for example Burma is known as Burma, more than "Union of Myanmar" which is the more official name. Loosmark (talk) 15:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- As an outsider who has been following the debate, the above input from HerkusMonte seems logical. Adding the "former country" template would imply that the Federal Republic of Germany, known as "West Germany" for part of its history, had ceased to exist. In fact there was continuity of all the institutions of state through reunification, with the "only" change being that the Federal Republic of Germany grew. Davidelit (Talk) 16:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- The country was usually known as "West Germany" in English same as for example Burma is known as Burma, more than "Union of Myanmar" which is the more official name. Loosmark (talk) 15:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- Well I guess it can be described in more ways than one but i think basically what he had there was some sort of inverted Czechoslovakia, there we had a split, Czechoslovakia --> Czech Republic + Slovakia and here we have the reunification of Germany. Thus West Germany + East Germany = Germany. Loosmark (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that the infobox should be added; what is disputed is whether West Germany ended or not in 1990. I think that as the lead explains it does, but Federal Republic of Germany - the official name of the country - has not ended. I'd suggest moving this article to Federal Republic of Germany and restoring the infobox which DOES NOT indicate the Republic ceased to exist; and creating a new article at the West Germany discussing the term that is now historical and inaccurate. I think nobody will disagree that West Germany was the common English name for Federal Republic of Germany till the reunification of Germany in 1990 and since than it is a misleading term; there is no more West or East Germany (as sovereign states); there is only the one united Germany. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
My point with the initial post of this string was that the whole controversy seems to be about a redundant article. Most of what's in here can (and possibly should) be included in the history of Germany, and without checking, I can guess it already is in there. The question then is whether a redundant article should exist at all.
Without a doubt, East Germany did cease to exist, as all its institutions were dissolved or abandoned; thus, no-one doubts that that one is a "former country" (and I'm guessing even those who doubts its legality/legitimacy won't doubts its existence). I therefore seriously propose this article should be turned into a small explanation of the term and everything else be merged into the article for Germany itself. That should end this senseless fighting and edit-warring. (see next section) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- "Most of what's in here can (and possibly should) be included in the history of Germany, and without checking, I can guess it already is in there" - to be honest, it would be more helpful if you did some checking and not guessing before nominating articles for merger. This is a significant topic with plenty of specific interest - per WP:DETAIL this is a prime candidate for a standalone companion article. WP:LENGTH is another reason this is a badly thought-out idea - it's generally a bad idea to be merging ~35k articles into ones over 100k, as proposed.
- "That should end this senseless fighting and edit-warring." - no, we don't delete or merge articles to solve behavioural issues - those should be sorted separately. Our articles exist and are arranged for the benefit of our readers, not because of editor's squabbles - if it were otherwise, we would no longer have articles on the West Bank, the Catholic Church or even Yoghurt. Knepflerle (talk) 10:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closing merger discussion. Result was no merger. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:52, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Merger
I have very little to say on the matter that I haven't half-a-dozen times before, but I think there is a call for a separate article on the history of the FRG between 1945 and 1990 (the story of West Germany being one of the most crucial in understanding modern Europe) and that the appropriate name for the article is West Germany (for my reasoning, see this old comment of mine). I would not support a rename personally, but this is certainly preferable to a marginalisation of the material elsewhere.
As this is essentially a history article, the disputed infobox is not required - infoboxes should only be used for conveying simple information that needs no further clarification whatsoever. Here some clarification is in order, so we should not run the risk of misleading through over-simplification. The information can easily be incorporated into a short paragraph with adequate background to help explanation. Knepflerle (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- oppose The question about infoboxes and "former Countries" aside (which is really a matter for the WikiProject in question)
The target articles are simply to large already. History of Germany since 1945 is an expansion on a subsection of this article and as such it should be a merge from but that again would fail on the shear size. Agathoclea (talk) 13:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Comment (as a German) I think this is an article to be worked on, but Westdeutschland did exist and is the common term for the Federal Republic of Germany (1945–1990) and there should be an own article. Renaming this article—maybe to History of the Federal Repubic in Germany from 1945 to 1990—is in my opinion beginning a redundant discussion (therefor are redirects and more). The entity doesn't exist any longer, but inclusion of {{Infobox former country}} is also irrelevant, if the article is good, reliable and sourced (and all other things articles need [and the lack of those is the main problem here]). A merge of this article (into or from something) is imho not the solution, because as stated West Germany played a important rule in modern European history. I see problems within the article itself, like structure and much more important inline-citations; this should be adressed, not merging and renaming every other year. Thanks. Sebastian scha. (talk) 13:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose per arguments above. 91.110.246.19 (talk) 18:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
This article should have an infobox
Someone removed the infobox claiming this was according to talk page consensus. I see no consensus here to remove the infobox. Please, direct me if I missed something. So long, I will reinstall status quo. Tomeasy T C 17:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I was reverted and the infobox removed again. Based on what? Where is consensus that there should not be an infobox. If East Germany has one, it is just inconsistent not have one here. Tomeasy T C 21:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- "If East Germany has one"?! How childish. The first and only free elected GDR parliament has decided to dissolve the GDR in order to join the FR Germany. There was and is no "symmetry" between these two countries, as the informal naming with West and East suggests to simple minds. The GDR has vanished, while the FR Germany still exists, enlarged. "Based on what" do you want to declare the FR Germany a former country? Any (reliable!) sources it has ceased to exist, while chancellor and president etc. stayed in their offices for years to come after 1990? Just like the USA has grown from 13 to 50 states, the FRG has grown from 10 to 16 states. Do you really want to create a separate article for each intermediate entity, and declare it a former country with a colorful template? -- Matthead Discuß 22:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with user:Tomeasy, there was no consensus for removing the infobox. Seems that user:Matthead is POV pushing a little bit. Loosmark (talk) 23:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- And User:Loosmark is editwarring a big bit. As usual. Go elsewhere. -- Matthead Discuß 00:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with user:Tomeasy, there was no consensus for removing the infobox. Seems that user:Matthead is POV pushing a little bit. Loosmark (talk) 23:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- "If East Germany has one"?! How childish. The first and only free elected GDR parliament has decided to dissolve the GDR in order to join the FR Germany. There was and is no "symmetry" between these two countries, as the informal naming with West and East suggests to simple minds. The GDR has vanished, while the FR Germany still exists, enlarged. "Based on what" do you want to declare the FR Germany a former country? Any (reliable!) sources it has ceased to exist, while chancellor and president etc. stayed in their offices for years to come after 1990? Just like the USA has grown from 13 to 50 states, the FRG has grown from 10 to 16 states. Do you really want to create a separate article for each intermediate entity, and declare it a former country with a colorful template? -- Matthead Discuß 22:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)