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: We've gone over this many times. There is '''no''' consensus to remove the NYT material, and editors who persist in removing it against consensus are indeed edit warring. [[User:FellGleaming|<font color="darkmagenta">Fell Gleaming</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:FellGleaming|<font color="black">talk</font>]]</sup> 15:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
: We've gone over this many times. There is '''no''' consensus to remove the NYT material, and editors who persist in removing it against consensus are indeed edit warring. [[User:FellGleaming|<font color="darkmagenta">Fell Gleaming</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:FellGleaming|<font color="black">talk</font>]]</sup> 15:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
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::So now the article is protected please reach consensus rather than edit warring dubious additions into the article along with the IP 99.144.248.213. [[User:Polargeo|Polargeo]] ([[User talk:Polargeo|talk]]) 16:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
::So now the article is protected please reach consensus rather than edit warring dubious additions into the article along with the IP 99.144.248.213. [[User:Polargeo|Polargeo]] ([[User talk:Polargeo|talk]]) 16:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
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::: '''Comment''' – a number of editors seem to be conflating "regret" with "retract". They aren't the same thing. The evidence appears persuasive that Ms. Heffernan regrets her original recommendation, but I've seen no evidence presented that she retracts her original recommendation. Her statement of regret qualifies her original recommendation, and substantially enough that it should be mentioned (assuming the Tweet qualifies as RS, and I think it does). It isn't even clear to me that a retracted statement means that neither the original nor the retraction deserve mention, but that isn't at issue here. What we have is a recommendation and a subsequent qualification. As a thought experiment, if you think an expression of regret means that the original incident can be ignored, try going to the [[Tiger Woods]] article and removing the section about his recent infidelities, on the basis that there is a RS where he expresses regret.--<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#002868;color:#fff;padding:0 4px">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#ADD8E6;padding:0 4px;color:#fff;">T</span>]]</font> 19:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
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Linking WUWT and ClimateAudit: Original Research
Kim, I assume from your insertion of the template, that you wouldn't object to removing the phrase purporting the "same opinion" to these two sites. I think that's valid. Unless another editor disagrees, it should probably go. FellGleaming (talk) 22:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yep. I wouldn't mind a removal - in fact i'm rather convinced that McIntyre doesn't have similar views to Watts (if one looks hard enough, McIntyre has stated this in some commentary), which is why i put the tags on the paranthesis sentence. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- To late, if your refering to the piece by jeet heer at any rate mark nutley (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Erm, by doing that i may have broken my 1r restriction, if i have please ping my talk page mark nutley (talk) 17:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- And now Mark, you can quote the exact point in the Heer article, where this is written. Since you reverted with " remove cn and or tags, this stuff is in the ref". I can't find it in the ref, but apparently you can. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- And now kim, perhaps you should look at what you made me revert ans you`ll see i fixed it mark nutley (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Here it is btw Wattsupwiththat.comand and climatedepot.com. The sites' rising popularity, and the growing influence they appear to wield in shaping public debate, is deeply worrying to the scientific community. As you can see what i did fixed and improved the article, feel free to revert my self revert mark nutley (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've taken a stab at a version that everyone may wind acceptable. Please voice your opinions here. FellGleaming (talk) 19:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- No it`s wrong, what i had done actually fixed it, this is what needs to be there In The Globe And Mail Jeet Heer wrote of WUWT and the blog climatedepot "The sites' rising popularity, and the growing influence they appear to wield in shaping public debate, is deeply worrying to the scientific community It is not CA mentioned by Heer mark nutley (talk) 19:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have the full text of the article? I'm a bit curious to know how a reporter best known for reporting on comic books knows what is "deeply worrying" to the scientific community at large. Did he attribute this in any way? FellGleaming (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- No it`s wrong, what i had done actually fixed it, this is what needs to be there In The Globe And Mail Jeet Heer wrote of WUWT and the blog climatedepot "The sites' rising popularity, and the growing influence they appear to wield in shaping public debate, is deeply worrying to the scientific community It is not CA mentioned by Heer mark nutley (talk) 19:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've taken a stab at a version that everyone may wind acceptable. Please voice your opinions here. FellGleaming (talk) 19:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Here it is btw Wattsupwiththat.comand and climatedepot.com. The sites' rising popularity, and the growing influence they appear to wield in shaping public debate, is deeply worrying to the scientific community. As you can see what i did fixed and improved the article, feel free to revert my self revert mark nutley (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- And now kim, perhaps you should look at what you made me revert ans you`ll see i fixed it mark nutley (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- To late, if your refering to the piece by jeet heer at any rate mark nutley (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
No it`s behind a paywall now :( mark nutley (talk) 20:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Based on this, and KDP's recent comments about undue weight in other areas, I will delete it. Three negative comments from three environmental reporters in such a short entry is really overboard. A comment by an actual climatologist -- either positive or negative -- would be appropriate I think. FellGleaming (talk) 00:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Removal of criticisms
Why was this removed? -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC):
In The Globe And Mail, Jeet Heer wrote of WUWT: "The sites' rising popularity, and the growing influence they appear to wield in shaping public debate, is deeply worrying to the scientific community".[1]
- See the discussion above. The list of journalists who had negative things to say about WUWT was becoming longer than the article itself. WP:UNDUE. Jeet Heer is best known as a comic book reporter in any case; his comment isn't very notable. FellGleaming (talk) 04:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you can show that coverage is unbalanced then find positive coverage to create balance. Otherwise, don't take out criticism to create a false balance. Your personal opinion of Mr. Heer is not germane to determining reliability; The Globe and Mail is Canada's largest circulation national newspaper and considered a "newspaper of record" comparable to the role that the New York Times serves in the U.S. Will undo your revert if satisfactory justification is not provided. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
It's not an issue of finding counterbalancing opinions; its a length issue. This is a brief article, and listing 20 opinions from 20 journalists on whether or not they like the site isn't helpful. We have several; any more detracts from the article, and risks COATRACKing it and appearing a poison the well scenario.
As was said above, a statement from an actual climatologist or scientist in a field relevant to the blog's content would be a step forward. But how many journalist opinions do we really need? Another dozen on either side...would that make the article more encyclopedic, or just look silly? FellGleaming (talk) 04:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I personally don't have any problem with including reliably sourced criticisms, such as from newspapers. Any balance in the article I believe will occur naturally. I assume some newspaper columnists somewhere, such as Christopher Booker, must have given the site some positive reviews? Anyway, I'm not confortable with removing reliably sourced opinions from an article that isn't a BLP. Cla68 (talk) 04:41, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Let me add, I think our readers are able to read the information, check the sources, and decide for themselves whether the criticisms and praises are credible or not. Cla68 (talk) 04:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- So you wouldn't object to several negative opinions from columnists criticizing say, a site like RealClimate? I notice that blog has no criticism section yet whatsoever. FellGleaming (talk) 04:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've just started working on that article. Here are my list of potential sources so far. Notice that it is a fairly assorted mix of praise and criticism. I want to take the article to Good Article level, if not higher, which requires it to be expanded greatly. That means that I need to use everything in reliable sources that I can find, which will include a mix of both criticism, praise, and stuff in the middle. Cla68 (talk) 04:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- The talk page you linked says you "just completed Desmogblog, and nominated it for good article". Yet the updated article contains only positive references, and no criticism whatsoever. Why the difference between that site and this one? FellGleaming (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- There isn't much negative criticism of DeSmogBlog. You might have missed the one negative criticism in the article, which is the second sentence in the second paragraph of the "notable media mentions" paragraph. If there was more criticism of the subject in reliable sources, I would have put it in there. If people click on the links in the references, I think they will find out more about that website. RealClimate is another story. I think that article is going to be an interesting one to expand, as opinions on that blog are a little stronger, on both "sides". Cla68 (talk) 05:13, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don`t think Heer was being critical of the site, he was saying how it had gotten so popular, i believe it should stay in myself mark nutley (talk) 06:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- There isn't much negative criticism of DeSmogBlog. You might have missed the one negative criticism in the article, which is the second sentence in the second paragraph of the "notable media mentions" paragraph. If there was more criticism of the subject in reliable sources, I would have put it in there. If people click on the links in the references, I think they will find out more about that website. RealClimate is another story. I think that article is going to be an interesting one to expand, as opinions on that blog are a little stronger, on both "sides". Cla68 (talk) 05:13, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- The talk page you linked says you "just completed Desmogblog, and nominated it for good article". Yet the updated article contains only positive references, and no criticism whatsoever. Why the difference between that site and this one? FellGleaming (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've just started working on that article. Here are my list of potential sources so far. Notice that it is a fairly assorted mix of praise and criticism. I want to take the article to Good Article level, if not higher, which requires it to be expanded greatly. That means that I need to use everything in reliable sources that I can find, which will include a mix of both criticism, praise, and stuff in the middle. Cla68 (talk) 04:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- So you wouldn't object to several negative opinions from columnists criticizing say, a site like RealClimate? I notice that blog has no criticism section yet whatsoever. FellGleaming (talk) 04:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Let me add, I think our readers are able to read the information, check the sources, and decide for themselves whether the criticisms and praises are credible or not. Cla68 (talk) 04:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Rv: why
I agree with G William M. Connolley (talk) 21:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is being discussed above, i will revert this per my reasons above mark nutley (talk) 21:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
New Delingpole reference
Substantial reference to WUWT made. Jprw (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is certainly apropos, but needs some trimming somewhat to fall in line with the rest of the article. Fell Gleaming(talk) 21:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with the original Delingpole material that's been batted around a couple of times is that it's not about the blog per se which is the topic of the present article. Saying that Delingpole has been a guest poster at WUWT would be fine; making a brief mention of an especially noteworthy guest post by Delingpole would be fine (assuming the noteworthiness is established in reliable sources). But analyzing Delingpole's argument is a textbook example of WP:COATRACK. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, it's not Delingpole's argument. It's an argument by Steve Goddard, WUWT commentator. Delingpole is simply reporting on it, which makes it notable. I think the text needs to be rewritten to indicate this...it doesn't need to refer to Delingpole at all(just be sourced to him), and it needs to be trimmed a bit as well. Fell Gleaming(talk) 22:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with the original Delingpole material that's been batted around a couple of times is that it's not about the blog per se which is the topic of the present article. Saying that Delingpole has been a guest poster at WUWT would be fine; making a brief mention of an especially noteworthy guest post by Delingpole would be fine (assuming the noteworthiness is established in reliable sources). But analyzing Delingpole's argument is a textbook example of WP:COATRACK. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't see the point of the extensive volcano stuff mislabelled "guest postings" William M. Connolley (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. Not every blog post pigged up by a partisan commentator in an editorial is notable or relevant. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree too, but I think WMC's edit summary was unnecessarily provocative. Thepm (talk) 23:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is going back in, please suggest an alternative wording for it, thanks mark nutley (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Suggested wording, given due weight: "" It would be great if can shorten it further. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Very constructive :-) mark nutley (talk) 15:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- If this were a pop culture blog, would it be relevant to have a section about somebody's guest post on Lady Gaga? IF so, what would you write then? Thepm (talk) 22:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- It`s not pop culture though. I think a rebuttal to what the MSM were saying (incorrectly) about the eruption is very notable, especially as the rebuttal was picked up and relayed via the telegraph mark nutley (talk) 08:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Suggested wording, given due weight: "" It would be great if can shorten it further. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is going back in, please suggest an alternative wording for it, thanks mark nutley (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Climatic Research Unit email controversy
Some editors seem to be having trouble spelling Climatic Research Unit email controversy. Such editors should look at the extensive discussion on the article name on that talk page, and not attempt to re-import settled arguments onto other pages William M. Connolley (talk) 13:38, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- Per the consensus Here the use of the term is allowable within section headers and article content mark nutley (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- Um. The "consensus" there is thin indeed, especially compared to that at talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy. But even granted your point, which I don't, all that does is make the use of the term "allowable" not "required" William M. Connolley (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- William, just how many average readers do you think will recognize "Climatic Research Unit email controversy," vs. Climategate? --Pete Tillman (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- Most people have heard of neither, so what's it matter? Guettarda (talk) 19:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- Apart from anyone who has read [2] these sources of course mark nutley (talk) 19:50, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- Most people have heard of neither, so what's it matter? Guettarda (talk) 19:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- William, just how many average readers do you think will recognize "Climatic Research Unit email controversy," vs. Climategate? --Pete Tillman (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
- Um. The "consensus" there is thin indeed, especially compared to that at talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy. But even granted your point, which I don't, all that does is make the use of the term "allowable" not "required" William M. Connolley (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Perspective
I think that "from a global warming skeptic perspective" is more accurate than "skeptical". In this contxt, "skeptical" has a particular meaning, that of disagreeing with the consensus, not the meaning it used to have William M. Connolley (talk) 09:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Monbiot
MN has this wrong William M. Connolley (talk) 12:45, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Could you please expound on your rationale? NW (Talk) 15:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Without taking a position in the underlying dispute, it seems that MN is stating that Monbiot retracted his comment about WUWT in the bolded paragraphs of [3]. It appears that what Monbiot retracted was his claim that 'it is incorrect to state that the April 2009 extent exceeds the 1979-2009 average', not his claim that 'He must know that this source is highly partisan and untrustworthy.' As an example, if I were to say "NW, you have long been a terrible admin - and as such, your block of Lambteeth must have been wrong," but I later determined your block of Lambteeth was correct, that would not mean that I retracted my claim that you were long a terrible admin. (Note that I take no position on your terribleness as an admin, used only for the purposes of this analogy, nor on your block of Lambteeth, who I pulled out at random) Hipocrite (talk) 16:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- The opinion was delivered in the context of what he later admitted was a mistake on his part. The entire paragraph should come out. ATren (talk) 17:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- He admitted to one mistake, but didn't retract the column. (note btw. that he still considers Bookers information wrong (just by month). And it has nothing to do with his opinion on WUWT. [on that account i find the use of Op-ed's/editorials/blogs overrated - which is an entirely different thing] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Monbiot made that accusation based on a mistake, he then manned up and admitted he was wrong and that the information on WUWT was in fact correct. What exactly is the issue here? Either we say he retracted or the whole lot has to go, which is it to be? mark nutley (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- He admitted to one mistake, but didn't retract the column. (note btw. that he still considers Bookers information wrong (just by month). And it has nothing to do with his opinion on WUWT. [on that account i find the use of Op-ed's/editorials/blogs overrated - which is an entirely different thing] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- The opinion was delivered in the context of what he later admitted was a mistake on his part. The entire paragraph should come out. ATren (talk) 17:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Good article nom
I think I may have some additional info to add to this article before a GA reviewer gets to it in a couple of weeks time. Cla68 (talk) 05:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Until the voluntary topic ban is over, however, I'll probably just post suggested additions of text here to the talk page and someone else can add it. Cla68 (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd be happy to do that unless (as the person who nominated it) am forbidden from doing so.Jprw (talk) 10:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- If you nominated it then you should help it along :), as i am due a topic ban soon i`ll add any content posted here, it`ll make no difference to me in the long run mark nutley (talk) 10:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I got my fingers burned when I first nominated an article (The Real Global Warming Disaster) and then requested fellow editors from the GW topic area to review it, upon which the nomination was promptly quashed (all according to correct WP procedure). So I'd rather be safe than sorry)) Cheers Jprw (talk) 11:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- If you nominated it then you should help it along :), as i am due a topic ban soon i`ll add any content posted here, it`ll make no difference to me in the long run mark nutley (talk) 10:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, an NYTimes blog appears to have some information in this entry for which I'll try to find the link:
- According to this entry, Viscount Christopher Monckton used Watts' blog last month to give his version of the story behind Margaret Thatcher's advocacy for global warming action. You may not be able to find this one online somewhere:
- "Thatcher becomes latest recruit in Monckton's climate sceptic campaign." Europe Intelligence Wire 22 June 2010. Cla68 (talk) 00:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Available here. Note especially the subtitle. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. Seems ok to use as source for information for this article. This source is an example of confusing citations I often find in Infotrac. Infotrac gives the source as a Financial Times' newswire. The Guardian, however, appears to be running the piece as if they published it. Who actually published it? Cla68 (talk) 01:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- LSE (Ward's institution) is attributing it to the Grauniad.[4] Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. Seems ok to use as source for information for this article. This source is an example of confusing citations I often find in Infotrac. Infotrac gives the source as a Financial Times' newswire. The Guardian, however, appears to be running the piece as if they published it. Who actually published it? Cla68 (talk) 01:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Tag and edit warring
- The article appears to have been nominated for GA with an expansion tag still in existance. I take it that the expansion of that section is still considered necessary then. I notice that there have been some battles over tags on this article in the past so I am unclear as to who still thinks the expansion tag is needed and who does not.
- There have been several reverts over the last month. In fact I count 10 in the last calendar month. These are fairly clear edit warring and are clearly not good faith improvements in general or reversions of clear vandalism. This means that the article fails Wikipedia:Good article criteria part 5. This should be sorted out for the article to be rated as good. It is poor practice having an article rated as good when it is being edit warred over.
- Maybe things need to settle down, the tag needs removing by consensus, the edit wars need to cease completely for a few weeks and then an attempt at GA. The only edit I have ever done prior to this comment was a minor edit to remove a space therefore technically I could review this article. However, as I would fail it and tell you to come back later I think this would be extremely controversial and so I will leave it up to someone not involved in the current arb case. Polargeo (talk) 10:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm removing the expand tag – it appears to be a remnant from an earlier time. What would be really helpful would be for someone to review the article as it stands, list the deficiencies preventing it from reaching GA status, and then let other editors have a go at rectifying those errors before a re-evaluation took place in, say, a fortnight. Any takers or is this too optimistic a timeframe? Jprw (talk) 11:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree a minimum of two weeks from now edit warring free may be adequate. One thing I would require up front is a source for the list of contributors. You are effectively saying these living people contribute to this skeptic blog with no given source for this statement. A separate source (or inline citation) for each one may even be necessary. Polargeo (talk) 12:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I thought we had a search history as a cite for the contributers? has it been removed? mark nutley (talk) 13:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- It appears it was added on 23 March [5]. I cannot see any attempt since then to source this information. Polargeo (talk) 13:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I`ll do it now, i could have sworn this had been sourced using the search function at the site, i must be thinking of another article mark nutley (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I personally don't have an issue with the sources you have added so far. However, the posts are all on Anthony Watts's blog and all posted by Anthony Watts. This may need checking by the BLP crowd as they seem to have a real problem accepting blog posts of any sort on BLP issues. Polargeo (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I`ll do it now, i could have sworn this had been sourced using the search function at the site, i must be thinking of another article mark nutley (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- It appears it was added on 23 March [5]. I cannot see any attempt since then to source this information. Polargeo (talk) 13:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm removing the expand tag – it appears to be a remnant from an earlier time. What would be really helpful would be for someone to review the article as it stands, list the deficiencies preventing it from reaching GA status, and then let other editors have a go at rectifying those errors before a re-evaluation took place in, say, a fortnight. Any takers or is this too optimistic a timeframe? Jprw (talk) 11:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
The sources Mark are providing are not valid references, and certainly don't verify anything more than "A search on watttsupwiththat shows that these names have been used on the blog." For instance, is there an author titled "Whooping Shit?" Based on mark's methology, there is - [6]. Hipocrite (talk) 13:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- How exactly are these not valid refs? Are you perhaps thinking these people do not post on the blog? How exactly have they failed verification? mark nutley (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I clicked on the links, and they didn't demonstrate that the people you say were authors were authors at all. For instance, what at http://wattsupwiththat.com/?s=Basil+Copeland leads you to believe Basil Copeland is an author. Be specific. Hipocrite (talk) 13:49, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict):::How about this A Guest Post by Basil Copeland sorry i did not realize you had trouble reading the actual search results mark nutley (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is a problem. But even further than that if the source was to the actual person's post. Would this be adequate? I am not sure if the BLP checkers would accept it. Polargeo (talk) 13:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is an author page for authors - for instance, [7]. I don't know why these weren't used for the other personages. Hipocrite (talk) 13:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is a problem. But even further than that if the source was to the actual person's post. Would this be adequate? I am not sure if the BLP checkers would accept it. Polargeo (talk) 13:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Sourcing contributors
Mark is apparently sourcing Blog contributors to search result pages on "What's up with that". That is problematic on several levels. First, these are, of course, primary sources. Secondly, a search result is not a static verifiable resource, but a dynamic result that can and will change over time, and in non-transparent ways, based on the internal organization of the web site. And third, of course, the result is at best as reliable as the web site, which, in this case, means "not very". Finally, it seems like the search returns every article which mentions the search term anywhere. I doubt that e.g. James Hansen has written for WUWT. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but let us make this simple rather than arguing about search result sources that will be easily corrected. Is a posting on the blog itself which is credited to the individual sufficient to list the individual? Polargeo (talk) 13:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know - is WUWT considered a reliable source for information about living people other than its owner? It's a valid source for Watts' opinion because he can be tied to it by reliable third-party sources. We wouldn't use WUWT alone, without corroborating sources, as proof that it was authored by Watts. I'd think the same standard should apply for other contributors. Guettarda (talk) 14:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Recuse. I don't know the correct answer. I do know that a search results page is not a valid source. Hipocrite (talk) 14:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. But that can be corrected. I hope this issue can be resolved here as there are enough people who should be able to give informed opinions but if not the BLP noticebord can sort this out. I would love to be able to say yes this is okay or not but there is some horrific BLP zeal on wikipedia over the past year which in my opinion needs pegging back as it goes against the ethos and even against what it is trying to achieve and enters into the realm of wikilawyering. Polargeo (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I understand that the blog has an "authors" page listing its main contributors. This should suffice as a source. Cla68 (talk) 23:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but it is still problematic. With BLP the blog can only be considered reliable for the opinions of one person (Anthony Watts) who has been confirmed as the blog's author by independent sources. Is it a reliable source for contributors? Particularly as we have to take Anthony Watts word that he has checked all of the contributors and confirmed they are who they say they are. Does the blog have a good reputation for fact checking? This really is a BLP issue. Polargeo (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. But we can add "According to WUWT, contributors include..." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like a solution. I am not bothered one way or the other I am just trying to give advice for GA review. Polargeo (talk) 09:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Done. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- That still involves using a blog as a source of information about living people. And, quite frankly, it's the kind of thing that, if untrue, could be very embarrassing to people. Attributing something to an unreliable source doesn't make it BLP-appropriate. Guettarda (talk) 14:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- But the reverse doubletake is that now its a statement about WUWT, no about the contributors. WUWT is OK for some kinds of statements about WUWT. Agree with the embarrassment part. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- That still involves using a blog as a source of information about living people. And, quite frankly, it's the kind of thing that, if untrue, could be very embarrassing to people. Attributing something to an unreliable source doesn't make it BLP-appropriate. Guettarda (talk) 14:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Done. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like a solution. I am not bothered one way or the other I am just trying to give advice for GA review. Polargeo (talk) 09:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. But we can add "According to WUWT, contributors include..." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but it is still problematic. With BLP the blog can only be considered reliable for the opinions of one person (Anthony Watts) who has been confirmed as the blog's author by independent sources. Is it a reliable source for contributors? Particularly as we have to take Anthony Watts word that he has checked all of the contributors and confirmed they are who they say they are. Does the blog have a good reputation for fact checking? This really is a BLP issue. Polargeo (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I understand that the blog has an "authors" page listing its main contributors. This should suffice as a source. Cla68 (talk) 23:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
True, but bear in mind the concerns expressed recently about the case of Rosalind Picard, who appeared in a reliable source (the NYT) as signatory to a petition used by ID proponentsists to promote ID. Even though she is definitely shown in that RS to have signed it and had not published any rebuttal or retraction, many editors felt we shouldn't report this because she might not like it being more widely known. This must surely apply much more so to a fringe blog source, the only possible saving grace being that the individuals don't seem to be notable enough to have articles yet. Safest to delete this until the list is given in a better source such as a reputable mainstream newspaper or an academic book. . . dave souza, talk 16:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Stephan, I don't think that it makes a difference whether we attribute it or not. "Blogger X says Y about person Z" isn't a whole lot better than saying Y about person Z<source, blogger X>. And, when it comes down to it, WUWT is either a Watts, or Watts' guest contributors. It's not an institution or a corporation that can speak with a voice distinct from that of individual people.
- Dave's point is important too. Who are these other people? Other than Goklany, there's no way to find information about them. There's no way to know which Evan Jones we're talking about? (Likely none of the ones listed on the dab page). Without some biographical information, it's a meaningless list. Guettarda (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe introducing a general sentence in the lead along the lines of "in addition to Watts, the blog has a regular list of contributors, including Indur Goklany", and then deleting the Contributors section, which seems to be more trouble than its worth. Jprw (talk) 10:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good idea. I would avoid singling out Goklany though to avoid any issues whatsoever. Just say that the blog has a list of regular guest contributors then reference the blog page with the contributor list. That way anyone who wishes to see the list can get it on the blog itself. Polargeo (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fine with me. Also get's rid of the need to keep the list up to date. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good idea. I would avoid singling out Goklany though to avoid any issues whatsoever. Just say that the blog has a list of regular guest contributors then reference the blog page with the contributor list. That way anyone who wishes to see the list can get it on the blog itself. Polargeo (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- looks like we have a clear consensus: the Contributions section is toast. I'll do the edit now. Jprw (talk) 12:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe introducing a general sentence in the lead along the lines of "in addition to Watts, the blog has a regular list of contributors, including Indur Goklany", and then deleting the Contributors section, which seems to be more trouble than its worth. Jprw (talk) 10:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Watts Up With That?
The article name needs to be changed to this new, correct title. Does anyone know how to add a question mark when moving a page? Jprw (talk) 12:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- You need an admin to delete the redirect page Watts Up With That? so that the move can be made. I will do it if nobody objects. Polargeo (talk) 12:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The Lead
Sounds too positive and could do with a critical ref – perhaps something general like "However, the blog has been described in some quarters as being highly partisan and selective in its reporting of data". Otherwise a valid point could be made that it is lacking in neutrality. Jprw (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Re: the above, I have added a sentence to round off the lead which is critical.Jprw (talk) 12:41, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- One of those is no good, monbiot retracted his accusation after it was ponted out he was totaly wrong mark nutley (talk) 13:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Mark. Can you please give the source/link for this. Polargeo (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- It`s in the ref given Whoops – looks like I've boobed this was discussed above mark nutley (talk) 13:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are still misrepresenting what Monbiot retracted. He did not retract his statement about WUWT. He did not base his statement on WUWT on the minor statement he retracted. You have been told this already - but you don't listen. Hipocrite (talk) 14:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- You mean the previous thread where it was argued that he admitted a single mistake which was outlined but he didn't retract the column based on it. If only everyone would do the same when some part of their argument was proven wrong then this would be a lot easier. Anyway, the link is to the entry where he has already corrected his mistake so you are now saying he is still not credible even after he has corrected his mistake. Polargeo (talk) 14:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I`m not saying he is not credible, but if his critique was based on a mistake which he manned up and admitted to then the critique within the article is based on the first false premise mark nutley (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, but it wasn't. Please read the source carefully. . . dave souza, talk 14:29, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I`m not saying he is not credible, but if his critique was based on a mistake which he manned up and admitted to then the critique within the article is based on the first false premise mark nutley (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- It`s in the ref given Whoops – looks like I've boobed this was discussed above mark nutley (talk) 13:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Mark. Can you please give the source/link for this. Polargeo (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- "In some quarters" is weaselly and misrepresents the majority expert view of WUWT, so I've changed it to "in mainstream sources". . . dave souza, talk 14:29, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Even more weaselly is saying mainstream sources when only one such source exists, so i changed it to reflect that mark nutley (talk) 15:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also is`nt this a blog [8] mark nutley (talk) 15:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but this is an article about a blog. It is not a BLP therefore there is no blanket ban on blogs as sources. Polargeo (talk) 15:52, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is if they are not commenting on themselves wp:sps it does not involve claims about third parties; mark nutley (talk) 16:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct. "Caution should be exercised." So has it been in the use of this source? Polargeo (talk) 16:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- No not really as it is being used to make a statement of fact and misinterpreting empirical observations Care to tell me how this usage of a blog equates to wp:sps it does not involve claims about third parties; A blog can`t be used to source statements of facts about a third partym you know that mark nutley (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- So remove it and find better sourced criticism. Polargeo (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- It`s not like i have not tried, there are no crits to be had, i have tried news, books and even scholar were funnily enough i got hits :) "watts up with that" but apart from monbiots column there are no MSM crits of this website, plenty of praise though mark nutley (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's why we need to use whatever negative crits are out there as they help avoid articles sounding like glowing tributes to the subject. Jprw (talk) 05:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, the NPOV argument is strong enough to not ignore this source. Maybe it should be changed to say something milder like "making errors in the interpretation of..." rather than "misinterpreting" because misinterpreting can suggest that it is deliberate and I don't think the source conveys this or even if it did it is not a strong enough source to say this. Polargeo (talk) 07:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good compromise I'll make the adjustment. Jprw (talk) 08:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- That`s cool, i`m good with that. Nice one Polargeo mark nutley (talk) 08:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Due to the minore edit war over the blog ref i have removed it per wp:sps. Either people come to an agreement on the talk page here or it stays out mark nutley (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, the NPOV argument is strong enough to not ignore this source. Maybe it should be changed to say something milder like "making errors in the interpretation of..." rather than "misinterpreting" because misinterpreting can suggest that it is deliberate and I don't think the source conveys this or even if it did it is not a strong enough source to say this. Polargeo (talk) 07:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's why we need to use whatever negative crits are out there as they help avoid articles sounding like glowing tributes to the subject. Jprw (talk) 05:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is if they are not commenting on themselves wp:sps it does not involve claims about third parties; mark nutley (talk) 16:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but this is an article about a blog. It is not a BLP therefore there is no blanket ban on blogs as sources. Polargeo (talk) 15:52, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also is`nt this a blog [8] mark nutley (talk) 15:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Parrisian is, I take it, a sock? Jprw (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don`t know, he may be ratel. I have asked him on his talk page to stop edit warring, come to talk and also to disclose any previous accounts he may have had mark nutley (talk) 17:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well done -- edit warring/unhelpful, disruptive tendentious edits by socks are going to well and truly scupper this article's chances of reaching GA, and such activity should be pre-empted as much as possible. By the way the last line of the lead still needs tweaking and we might want to reconsider introducing the blog ref for the sake of critical balance. Jprw (talk) 17:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- The blog ref can go back to help with balance, but go with Polargeo`s suggestion. There is a nice piece in the NYT about the site btw For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check out scientificamerican.com, discovermagazine.com and Anthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That? mark nutley (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well done -- edit warring/unhelpful, disruptive tendentious edits by socks are going to well and truly scupper this article's chances of reaching GA, and such activity should be pre-empted as much as possible. By the way the last line of the lead still needs tweaking and we might want to reconsider introducing the blog ref for the sake of critical balance. Jprw (talk) 17:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Watts Up is, like RealClimate, a moderated site which means reader comments are screened and subject to approval before being posted. I don't have a reliable secondary reference to source this, however, but I think it's an important piece of information for this article and should be included if a source can be found. Cla68 (talk) 08:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Pub?
Why is there a problem with noting the lack of publications? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:52, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Why has unverified content been reverted into this article? mark nutley (talk) 20:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Silly
I took this out:
- According to journalist Christopher Booker in his book The Real Global Warming Disaster, in 2007 WUWT and its readers found that a significant number of weather stations used to capture temperature records were located in the US, giving the US a disproportionate impact on global temperature reports.
because it is silly William M. Connolley (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Also some more stuff that was more about Booker than WUWT William M. Connolley (talk) 21:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- To delete text because you feel that it is "silly" doesn't appear to me to be very helpful. We're supposed to be adding information to this article, not deleting it. Cla68 (talk) 22:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know what Booker wrote, or what WUWT found, but the connection it is plain and simply wrong and misleading. The number of weather stations in a given area is irrelevant for the "impact" that area has on any gridded temperature product (like the CRU, NASA, and NOAA temperature products). So this statement either needs a lot of context (which may be hard to source, since no-body would think it necessary to comment on such obvious nonsense, and no scientific journal would publish a note on such a trivial error), or it needs to go. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- If you think we're supposed to be indiscriminately adding nonsensical material, I don't think there's much that can be done here. StuartH (talk) 23:55, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Cla is keen to push "verifiability, not truth". As far as Cla is concerned, rampant nonsense is fine as long as there is a source Cla considers reliable William M. Connolley (talk) 12:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Deleting content without discussion
Can I please remind editors that the article is GA nominated and that instead of deleting/reinstating content without discussion (in short, edit warring) it would be much better to discuss on this page first. Otherwise, the GA nomination goes up in smoke. Jprw (talk) 06:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- You'll need to talk to Cla then, because he is re-inserting total tripe into this article William M. Connolley (talk) 10:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
The warring begins with deletion though. Let's make full use of this discussion board over the next week or so. Jprw (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, removing tripe is not warring, esspecially when backed up on the talk page, as I did. If you're going to try to help in this dispute, you're going to need to know what you're talking about William M. Connolley (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
You took it out before discussing it first. Why bypass the discussion process, especially when you know that the article is up for GA? Deletions should be reserved for edits by obvious socks/vandalism, otherwise we are straight into a batttleground-type scenario. Jprw (talk) 12:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- I took it out because it was tripe, which seems especially sensible given this is up for GA. Lets try this the other way round: do you think it is a good idea to have that text in the article? Or, perhaps the same question, do you have any idea whether that text is true or false? William M. Connolley (talk) 12:58, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
WUWT, the most prominent sceptical blog, is referenced at least twenty times in The Real Global Warming Disaster, the most prominent book from the sceptics camp. It seems to me that it would be odd if the WUWT Wikipedia article did not at least somewhere reference this fact. As for dubious claims, shouldn’t we let the reader make their own mind up, and just let a major source speak for itself? Jprw (talk) 13:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, Jprw, that is exactly how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Cla68 (talk) 23:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
"None of WUWT's analyses have been published in the peer-reviewed literature"
This somehow got embedded in a link. I've taken it out. Does anyone have a source for it? Jprw (talk) 12:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- You don't think tha absence of any sch publications is good enough? William M. Connolley (talk) 12:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
From a GA point of view would that not make it original research? Jprw (talk) 13:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes of course it does. I view WMC's question as rhetorical. He is correct but that matters little here on wikipedia. Polargeo (talk) 13:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Virginia Heffernan
A rather bizarre removal by mark nutley of a Virginia Heffernan quote that was verified to a certified Twitter account seems strange. I can understand removing everything to the talk page, but why only the quote that disputed that which was published in the NYTimes? Explain? ScienceApologist (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Since there is no response here and mark seems to be insistent that this should not be left, I will remove the entire content. I will post it here below in short-order so that we may all consider whether any part at all is worthy of inclusion in this article.
ScienceApologist (talk) 09:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well gee, perhaps i would have had time to post here if you had not been so busy posting threats on y talk page. Your insertion of SPS sources is a problem, don`t do it again. Your removal of sourced content is also a problem, don`t do that again mark nutley (talk) 09:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- ??? I have made a very clear-cut point here. Virginia Heffernan has verifiably said she regrets recommending Anthony Watts' blog. Is this something that we should take into consideration? ScienceApologist (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just because it can be verified to a forum post and a twitter account? No of course not, and you know such sources can`t be used mark nutley (talk) 10:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Is there really an issue with using a "confirmed Twitter account" to verify that a person thinks something? I'm actually fine with removing the whole thing if she regrets it, but it seems very dishonest to keep in just the recommendation if she really does regret recommending it. Isn't that reasonable? ScienceApologist (talk) 10:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just because it can be verified to a forum post and a twitter account? No of course not, and you know such sources can`t be used mark nutley (talk) 10:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- ??? I have made a very clear-cut point here. Virginia Heffernan has verifiably said she regrets recommending Anthony Watts' blog. Is this something that we should take into consideration? ScienceApologist (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I think I've answered my question by doing a search for "confirmed Twitter" at WP:RSN. I'll spare you the details, but suffice to say there are a lot of people that claim a confirmed Twitter account is simply a WP:SPS. In fact, there is a link that claims this very thing: WP:TWITTER. So, interestingly enough, we can use this source because we are referencing Virginia Heffernan's very own opinion. Whether it is appropriate for a WP:BLP, well, that's hard to say. It seems weird, though, that her opinion published by NYTimes is not in violation of WP:BLP but her own self-published opinion which expresses regret for the self-same opinion published by the NYTimes is not allowed to exist here. Interesting issue, I must admit! ScienceApologist (talk) 10:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Would you care to reinsert the reliably sourced content you removed now? And find a reliable source for what you wish to add? mark nutley (talk) 10:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- No. I am not of the opinion that we should include opinions of people after they express regret for saying them without also letting people know that they expressed such regret. That seems to be a fundamental WP:BLP issue. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Really? Were exactly does she "express regret" cos, i`m not seeing it. She allegedly says she does not endorse the views expressed on the site. And that she was sorry people (read activists here) that what she wrote was ideological. She does not say she regrets what she wrote at all, try and get it right ya mark nutley (talk) 18:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- No. I am not of the opinion that we should include opinions of people after they express regret for saying them without also letting people know that they expressed such regret. That seems to be a fundamental WP:BLP issue. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
To quote directly: "One regret: the Watts blog." ScienceApologist (talk) 18:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I see no problem about using that source as a reference for her change of opinion. But it shouldn't be made to look as if it was being used as a source for factual statements about the topic of the article. Therefore, shorten it down: "She later stated she changed her mind and distanced herself from her earlier recommendation", without the rhetorical detail of why she did so. Or, preferably, remove the whole thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "She later stated she changed her mind and distanced herself from her earlier recommendation" The first part is not what she said and the second part is WP:OR. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:32, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- You're right AQFK. We have the quote exactly as she said it below. It is relevant, but I'm not sure how to handle it. We certainly don't want to indicate only that she made the recommendation full stop. I think that's being dishonest. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
It is reasonably clear Virginia Heffernan regrets commending Anthony Watts' blog, therefore my inclination is to remove her name altogether. Surely editors can agree? Wikispan (talk) 16:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- It is reasonably clear that an e-mail campaign by activists lead to her saying she did not endorse the views on the blog. She did not retract her opinion that it is a credible science blog at all. It may be better to remove the lot just to save the hassle mark nutley (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- But we're, of course, not entitled to right great wrongs if this is the case. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Workshop this content
New York Times columnist Virginia Heffernan recommended Watt's as a top Science blog on August 1, 2010 stating; "For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check out scientificamerican.com, discovermagazine.com and Anthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That?"[2] She later stated, about that piece that she had "[o]ne regret: the Watts blog. Virtually everyone who emailed me pointed out that it’s as axe-grinding as anything out there. I linked to it because has a lively voice; it’s detail-oriented and seemingly not snide; and, above all, it has some beautiful images I’d never seen before. I’m a stranger to the debates on science blogs, so I frankly didn’t recognize the weatherspeak on the blog as “denialist”; I didn’t even know about denialism. I’m don’t endorse the views on the Watts blog, and I’m extremely sorry the recommendation seemed ideological"[3]
- I'd say remove it all. Keeping a recommendation that was made in error and retracted is misleading, discussing the whole issue is of little relevance to the article. It may be useful to put the discussion into a FAQ. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Perhaps this all should go in at Virginia Heffernan, but I have no way of knowing whether it is highly relevant to her biography or not. Sometimes, some verifiable things don't belong in Wikipedia. WP:INDISCRIMINATE.ScienceApologist (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Only keep the NYT's RS if it attacks our Villain in this piece. Otherwise, absolutely all means should be used to Game and remove any positive mentions no matter how seemingly trivial. Only our "Vigilant Defenders of the One True Path" (obviously not found here) are allowed to have it the other way. If you want neutrality please leave the "science" related bio's and look at less important topics where the future of the Earth is apparently not held in the balance.99.141.242.135 (talk) 04:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'll also add that I agree with everyone above that random internet comments always trump the New York Times. Why not? No need to wait for a retraction - we can retract ourselves based upon pretty much anything we want, right? The time when the NYT's controlled their own retractions and corrections is long past. We control, shape, form and create impressions now - and we'll be the judge of what the NYT really should have said.99.141.242.135 (talk) 04:19, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- ScienceApologist and the others are right: remove the whole thing. She said it, she regrets it, that's reliably enough sourced, end of story. BE——Critical__Talk 18:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not one single source, reference, link or citation has been introduced in any way, shape or form to support the idea that The New York Times has in any way retracted, corrected or clarified the referenced quote from its edited and fully vetted reliable pages. Not a one is to be found here. What you people may email back and forth to each other off-wiki as you prepare your versions is not known to us here on the open and public side of Wikipedia.
- Where, precisely, is The New York Times retraction to be found?99.151.162.27 (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- ScienceApologist and the others are right: remove the whole thing. She said it, she regrets it, that's reliably enough sourced, end of story. BE——Critical__Talk 18:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'll also add that I agree with everyone above that random internet comments always trump the New York Times. Why not? No need to wait for a retraction - we can retract ourselves based upon pretty much anything we want, right? The time when the NYT's controlled their own retractions and corrections is long past. We control, shape, form and create impressions now - and we'll be the judge of what the NYT really should have said.99.141.242.135 (talk) 04:19, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Only keep the NYT's RS if it attacks our Villain in this piece. Otherwise, absolutely all means should be used to Game and remove any positive mentions no matter how seemingly trivial. Only our "Vigilant Defenders of the One True Path" (obviously not found here) are allowed to have it the other way. If you want neutrality please leave the "science" related bio's and look at less important topics where the future of the Earth is apparently not held in the balance.99.141.242.135 (talk) 04:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Perhaps this all should go in at Virginia Heffernan, but I have no way of knowing whether it is highly relevant to her biography or not. Sometimes, some verifiable things don't belong in Wikipedia. WP:INDISCRIMINATE.ScienceApologist (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
This diatribe manifestly irrelevant to the point of this discussion. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- It's not a diatribe - it's precisely the point. Not one single source, reference, link or citation has been introduced in any way, shape or form to support the idea that The New York Times has in any way retracted, corrected or clarified the referenced quote from its edited and fully vetted reliable pages. Not a one is to be found here. 99.135.171.251 (talk) 12:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ip guy is correct, there have been no wp:rs sources presented stating this retraction (whic his not actually a retraction btw) mark nutley (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I just checked the NYT link at [9]. The recommendation is still there. As I understand it, that means that it hasn't actually been retracted, and should be in the article.Slowjoe17 (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- It's an invitation for a custard pie in the face. Heffernan has expressed regret over the recommendation (on a blog). If she returns to the topic in the future, which is entirely possible, then we may end up with lots of unnecessary back and forth. There is nothing preventing editors from returning the original material apart from common sense. I hope the same editors now pressing for a return don't turnaround and press for its removal if and when she does. Wikispan (talk) 15:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- No her post was that she did not endorse the views held on WUWT, she never said anything about regret did she? mark nutley (talk) 15:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- She said WUWT was her "One regret". [10] This is not a reliable source so it's your call whether you want to ignore it or pay heed. Wikispan (talk) 16:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Are you actually putting forth -- not even a blog, but a comment post to a blog -- as something we should rely upon??? (I had to physically restrain myself from typing more than three question marks) The original statement is relevant, appropriate, and well sourced. What's your objection ... other than you don't agree with her opinion? Fell Gleamingtalk 15:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- She said WUWT was her "One regret". [10] This is not a reliable source so it's your call whether you want to ignore it or pay heed. Wikispan (talk) 16:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- No her post was that she did not endorse the views held on WUWT, she never said anything about regret did she? mark nutley (talk) 15:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- It's an invitation for a custard pie in the face. Heffernan has expressed regret over the recommendation (on a blog). If she returns to the topic in the future, which is entirely possible, then we may end up with lots of unnecessary back and forth. There is nothing preventing editors from returning the original material apart from common sense. I hope the same editors now pressing for a return don't turnaround and press for its removal if and when she does. Wikispan (talk) 15:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I just checked the NYT link at [9]. The recommendation is still there. As I understand it, that means that it hasn't actually been retracted, and should be in the article.Slowjoe17 (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ip guy is correct, there have been no wp:rs sources presented stating this retraction (whic his not actually a retraction btw) mark nutley (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Is everyone happy with Virginia Heffernan's recommendation? If the answer is Yes, the text needs to be moved to the main body. Only then can we summarise the various different opinions in the lead section. Wikispan (talk) 17:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- George Spyros (Huffinton Post) concurs with Virginia's first two recommendations, but urges caution with the third, "We've covered Watt and his site before finding that his posts may at times glibly misrepresent data or lob ad hominem attacks supported in facts but which lead to illogical conclusions." [11] Wikispan (talk) 17:07, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- It could as easily be said that George Spyros agrees with her recommendation of Watts Up With That. Here's more of the quote:
Which brings us to note that Virginia also advocates you visit former TV meteorologist and blogger Anthony Watts' punily titular site Watts Up With That. While we don't disagree with this guidance, we suggest you proceed with minor caution.
She regrets it, and not to include that is a BLP violation
I really don't care if the statement stays or goes, but if it stays the verified regret she expressed for the recommendation must also be included. I will not back down from this as it is a WP:BLP matter. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Virginia expressed regret on a blog (NEURONCULTURE.COM). Until we have a solid reference, we should balance her original view with an additional comment from George Spyros on the same topic (see immediately above). Otherwise you won't get very far. Wikispan (talk) 18:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's okay for a person to clarfiy themselves on a blog. There is nothing in BLP which contradicts this. In fact, WP:TWITTER is relevant here. Read it and understand that the real BLP issue here is with Heffernan. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- ScienceApologist: You added unsourced BLP information to the article. Per WP:BLP, I am removing your BLP violation. Do not add contentious material about BLPs without citing your sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's a lie. The information is sourced. That I didn't put in a cite is another matter, but it is NOT a BLP-violation. The true BLP-violation is to keep a recommendation in the article that she has verifiably stated to have later regretted. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Apologist, you really should read the BLP standard more carefully if you feel that this is a violation. An encyclopedia reports what people do, not how they later feel about what they did. This is a moot point, because if she actually did state she regretted it -- clearly, and in a WP:RS -- we should probably strike her statement for accuracy concerns. But in neither case would it be anything near a BLP violation, which exists to protect the Wikipedia Foundation against tort liability. Fell Gleamingtalk 19:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's baloney and you know it. Since we know she regretted it, we agreed above to remove the information. You reinstated it. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Why not just re-word it to say that she did not agree with its agenda but did agree wiht its style (which seems to me to be what she is sayingSlatersteven (talk) 19:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Works for me! Go ahead and rewrite it! ScienceApologist (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, how do we know she "regets" it? Is there a retraction in the NYT? This is her professional work we're talking about. Fell Gleamingtalk 20:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- She verifiably wrote that she regrets it. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, how do we know she "regets" it? Is there a retraction in the NYT? This is her professional work we're talking about. Fell Gleamingtalk 20:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Works for me! Go ahead and rewrite it! ScienceApologist (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Why not just re-word it to say that she did not agree with its agenda but did agree wiht its style (which seems to me to be what she is sayingSlatersteven (talk) 19:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's baloney and you know it. Since we know she regretted it, we agreed above to remove the information. You reinstated it. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, I found the source for SA's edit.[12] It appears to be a comment to a blog. Also, SA appears to be spinning her comment to make it look like she regrets the recommendation - which it doesn't really say. Instead, she seems to be saying that she regrets that the recommendation seemed ideological. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Good find...and THAT, people, is why we don't use random blog postings as sources. Fell Gleamingtalk 21:08, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Its not a new find,its been here a while. I would also say that wghilst it does not support the idea she 'regrets' her endorsment she does caveat it.Slatersteven (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
One uqstion why is this womans views considerd notable enough to be in the lead?Slatersteven (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: Good point. I was thinking the same thing myself. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven, you felt her regret of her recommendation belonged in the lede. Now that you find out she doesn't regret it, you've not only removed her recommendation from the lede, but from the entire article? I'm asking you to self-revert on this; it's clearly a disruptive edit. Move it into the body if you wish, but do not delete it entirely. Fell Gleamingtalk 21:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- She regrets it. She stated that she had one regret and that was the Watts blog. That's not spin, that's not interpretation, that' just what she said. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- SA, if you persist in this, you're going to find the waters closing over your head. The only source provided doesn't even claim she regrets it. So you're not only making inaccurate statements, you're perpetuating a BLP violation. Fell Gleamingtalk 21
- 28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- One AGF Two There is no evidence she does not regret it (though there is also non to say she does). No one has proven she did not write the blog entry (and there has been no denial from her she wrote it, so we have no reason to assume she did not). Three I did not say her regret should be in the lead, I said it should say she did not agree with its agenda (which is what the blog entry says). Four this discussion is about evolving ideas and attitudes, at first I felt that her views should be accurately reflected. I then decided to actually check who she was rather then what she said. I found that she seems to be some kind of arts writer, not a science writer.Slatersteven (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Pretzel logic isn't going to buy you anything here. WP policy is clear. We post only what can be verified in reliable sources. There is no reliable source claiming she regrets her statement. End of discussion. There is also no consensus to remove the material entirely from the article, so please restore it immediately. Fell Gleamingtalk 21:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- One AGF two Yes Wp policy is clear contested material should not be iniserted untill consensus is achived, it has not been so should not be included (nor I have said her regret should be included please stop mis-representing my statments). If you wish to re-insert the material into hte body of the articel (I still fail to see why her views are notable on this matter) it would not breach 3RR as it is clearly a new edit so I fail to see whny you cannot insert it in a more apporpriate place.Slatersteven (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are confusing WP policy on material contested as a potential BLP violation. Normal content cannot be block removed during an ongoing discussion unless consensus has been reached. I believe we have consensus the material should not be in the lede, but there is no consensus to remove it entirely. Please self revert immediately, and move the content to a more appropriate section if you wish. Fell Gleamingtalk 21:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I see a number of persons saying it Actually should be removed, and none saying it should be moved that I can see.Slatersteven (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: When I agreed with you about it being in the lede,[13] I thought that you meant it should be moved to the body of the article. Unless this article is too long, I see no reason to completely remove reliably sourced content. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I was not referring to you but the wider discussion (and the claim that there is consensus for a move, I do not see such consensus). I have no objection to including her views, but also see no value to be gained from it (and if they are included include the caveat too, her reason for liking it are to do with presentation, not science (not a surprise as she seems to be a culture writer)). She is not a science writer but an arts writer so her views are a bit fringy on this matter. .Slatersteven (talk) 22:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: When I agreed with you about it being in the lede,[13] I thought that you meant it should be moved to the body of the article. Unless this article is too long, I see no reason to completely remove reliably sourced content. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I see a number of persons saying it Actually should be removed, and none saying it should be moved that I can see.Slatersteven (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are confusing WP policy on material contested as a potential BLP violation. Normal content cannot be block removed during an ongoing discussion unless consensus has been reached. I believe we have consensus the material should not be in the lede, but there is no consensus to remove it entirely. Please self revert immediately, and move the content to a more appropriate section if you wish. Fell Gleamingtalk 21:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- One AGF two Yes Wp policy is clear contested material should not be iniserted untill consensus is achived, it has not been so should not be included (nor I have said her regret should be included please stop mis-representing my statments). If you wish to re-insert the material into hte body of the articel (I still fail to see why her views are notable on this matter) it would not breach 3RR as it is clearly a new edit so I fail to see whny you cannot insert it in a more apporpriate place.Slatersteven (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) (ec) We can use self-published material as evidence of a person's own words, if the identity of the person who wrote it can be confirmed. Virginia Heffernan's twitter post, which says (after deleting two "http://"'s to avoid triggering the blacklist) "Thanks for replies to [deleted] tinyurl.com/2d45nrw. Posted some clarification (and regret!) on David Dobbs's blog: [deleted] tinyurl.com/29kb6vr 10:18 PM Jul 30th via web", and is at least temporarily at here, is strong evidence that she did indeed write the blog post. Cardamon (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- The point you're ignoring is that she doesn't regret her article. She regrets that it appeared idealogical....a considerably different matter. Fell Gleamingtalk 22:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- So you accept that she stated that she did not agree with its ideology. So why did you rem ove that material as well?Slatersteven (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Please stop misrepresenting sources. She didn't state she disagreed with its idealogy. She stated she regretted it appeared idealogical, in other words, that other people interpreted it as such. Fell Gleamingtalk 22:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- So why did you remove the material that gave her direct quoted caveat if you accepet she did in fact say that she "I’m don’t endorse the views on the Watts blog," (I would argue a statemnt that she disagress with its views)?Slatersteven (talk) 22:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Please stop misrepresenting sources. She didn't state she disagreed with its idealogy. She stated she regretted it appeared idealogical, in other words, that other people interpreted it as such. Fell Gleamingtalk 22:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) She also said: 'One regret: the Watts blog. Virtually everyone who emailed me pointed out that it’s as axe-grinding as anything out there.' and '... I’m a stranger to the debates on science blogs, so I frankly didn’t recognize the weatherspeak on the blog as “denialist" ...', and ' ... I’m don’t endorse the views on the Watts blog ... ' [sic]. This is enough to show that she probably doesn't stand behind her earlier recommendation of the Watts blog. I also think it would be a good idea to take the whole thing out. Cardamon (talk) 22:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Fell Gleaming is correct. There seems to be a lot of effort trying to spin this comment to mean something more than it actually says. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- So you accept that she stated that she did not agree with its ideology. So why did you rem ove that material as well?Slatersteven (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- The point you're ignoring is that she doesn't regret her article. She regrets that it appeared idealogical....a considerably different matter. Fell Gleamingtalk 22:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Pretzel logic isn't going to buy you anything here. WP policy is clear. We post only what can be verified in reliable sources. There is no reliable source claiming she regrets her statement. End of discussion. There is also no consensus to remove the material entirely from the article, so please restore it immediately. Fell Gleamingtalk 21:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- One AGF Two There is no evidence she does not regret it (though there is also non to say she does). No one has proven she did not write the blog entry (and there has been no denial from her she wrote it, so we have no reason to assume she did not). Three I did not say her regret should be in the lead, I said it should say she did not agree with its agenda (which is what the blog entry says). Four this discussion is about evolving ideas and attitudes, at first I felt that her views should be accurately reflected. I then decided to actually check who she was rather then what she said. I found that she seems to be some kind of arts writer, not a science writer.Slatersteven (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- She regrets it. She stated that she had one regret and that was the Watts blog. That's not spin, that's not interpretation, that' just what she said. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- She says that "I’m don’t endorse the views on the Watts blog," which is effectloy saying she does not agree witt it (or at the very least she has no views one way or the otehr) as such her only recomendation is that she rather likes its style, not its content. That is not an endorsment that seems all that relevant to the articel. Moreover the material I added was direct quotes only, there was no attmept to spin her statment.I think the issue is she does not withdraw her recomendation, she explains that it was not an ideoloogical or sceintific but an aesthetic one. s such to caim that she has withdrawn her recomendation is not true, she explains it.Slatersteven (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
It would seem that taking the whole thing out is best William M. Connolley (talk) 22:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I just checked WP:LENGTH and it mentions 6,000 to 10,000 words of readable prose as an upper limit. According to Microsoft Word, we're currently at 925 words, so there's plenty of room to expand the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Compromise Proposal
NYT content stays, but blog comment is not reliable source and stays out. Minor4th 20:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)No, we don't let people make manifest declarations such as this.
How about this:
"New York Times columnist Virginia Heffernan recommended it with two others as a top Science blog on August 1, 2010 stating; "For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check out scientificamerican.com, discovermagazine.com and Anthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That?" Heffernan later stated that she selected this blog in part because of its beautiful imagery but does not endorse the views of the blog."
And we move the content out of the lede into the body? This contains content that Fell Gleaming wants to add, as well as content ScienceApologist wants to add. Does this satisfy everyone's concerns? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I am not sure why her views are relevant. I wouike to see the part wehre she admits she does not rally k now anything about science blogs (well words to that effect).Slatersteven (talk) 23:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Your objection is like claiming a NYT book-of-the-month recommendation isn't relevant to Steven Hawking's latest book, because the reviewer isn't a physicist. Fell Gleamingtalk 23:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes that is what I am saying. Is it relevant to a 'Brief history of time' that a NYT reviweer said its a really good read and I liked the pictures? Slatersteven (talk) 23:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Are you serious? A recommendation from the NYT is considered relevant, and is included as standard practice in most science book entries on Wikipedia. Here are just a few examples:
- Yes that is what I am saying. Is it relevant to a 'Brief history of time' that a NYT reviweer said its a really good read and I liked the pictures? Slatersteven (talk) 23:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Your objection is like claiming a NYT book-of-the-month recommendation isn't relevant to Steven Hawking's latest book, because the reviewer isn't a physicist. Fell Gleamingtalk 23:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Fell Gleamingtalk 23:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Slatersteven: How about this?
- Source one is a review (and I would say I am not sure what values it has), but its also a review section in the article, not an endorsement of its politics or science.
- source two are about placemats in the NYT best seller, they are not endorsements.
- Source three is about coverage in the NYT not an endorsement.Slatersteven (talk) 23:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
New York Times columnist Virginia Heffernan recommended it with two others as a top Science blog on August 1, 2010 stating; "For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check out scientificamerican.com, discovermagazine.com and Anthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That?" Heffernan later stated that she selected this blog in part because of its beautiful imagery, that she but is unfamiliar with the debates on science blogs and does not endorse its views." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I still fail to se what relevance her recomendation has, it like hainf a sentance on the page about Steven Hawkins new book that says something like. "I don't normaly read science books but found this one a really good read" .It tells us nothing about the site, or its value (other then looking really nice). But if it has to be mentioned I'll support this proposal.Slatersteven (talk) 23:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- A recommendation is noteworthy. A heavily qualified one is not. If the consensus evolves into this form, then I'd support withholding it entirely, rather than include a weasel-worded paragraph that essentially says nothing. Fell Gleamingtalk 23:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
How about this? New York Times columnist Virginia Heffernan recommended it with two others as a top Science blog on August 1, 2010 stating; "For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check out scientificamerican.com, discovermagazine.com and Anthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That?" However, Heffernan later wrote "One regret: the Watts blog. ... " saying that it had been pointed out to her that "... it’s as axe-grinding as anything out there...", that she had failed to " ... recognize the weatherspeak on the blog as “denialist” ... ", and had selected it in part because of its good writing and beautiful images, but does not endorse its views." Or, and this would be better, we could just leave the whole thing out. Cardamon (talk) 23:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Leave it out, its not even an indpeth review.Slatersteven (talk) 23:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Comment -- I think this needs to be included. It's like getting a good book review from the New York Times. It is notable, it's significant to this blog. WUWT was mentioned in conjunction with scientific american and discovery and that really means something. Leave the comment in -- her later expression of regret did not in any way retract what she said in her recommendation. She expressed regret because she later got bombarded with correspondence from Watts' detractors and she didn't know she was signing up for such drama. She did not retract her statement recommending the blog. Keep it. There is no need for the compromise wording, and there's no need to refer to her Twitter post. If she had said something to the effect that she looked at Watts' blog again and realized he was a complete fraud and she would no longer recommend it, that might be a little bit different but that is not anything close to what she said. Minor4th 04:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- You can`t use twitter not a forum post as a source and i am unsure why people are doing so. mark nutley (talk) 07:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- You can use forums and twiter for persons statements, also she says she does not endorse the blogs views, so that is rather impoprtant too. She ealso does say its an axe griding “denialist” blog. This is not an endorsment of its sceince but its astheticshe mkes that clear). Also its not a review its a throw away line in an op-edd peice. As to why she caveats that is specualtion, she does caveat her opinion and that needs to be mentioned, i8f her opinion of this page is notable so are her re4asons for liking (and not liking it). That is what a review would be some one explaining what they like and dislkie about something.Slatersteven (talk) 11:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No you can`t use a forum post nor twitter as a source please read wp:rs and wp:sps if she regrets what she said then she would ask the newspaper to amend her article, she has not done so. mark nutley (talk) 12:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually SPS can be used for information about themselves [[17]] So yes they can be used in this instance as its her twitter (and no one has denied its her blog entry as well) about something she said. Also we do not speculate on what she might or could do. She has made statements and unless you can prove she did not make them (and the twitter is defiantly hers) we report them.Slatersteven (talk) 12:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No per wp:sps self published sources can only be used for statements about the person and can`t be used as statements about third parties, as stated, those sources can`t be used in this article mark nutley (talk) 12:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- She is commenting on her endorsment. Shas sdaid she does not agree with the views of the blog, she is commenting on her opinions not on the site.Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No she is allegedly making statements of fact about a third party, we don`t know if it is her forum post, that is why forum posts are not allowed as sources. Stop saying a forum post meets wp:rs when it does not mark nutley (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No she is making a statment about her views.Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No per wp:sps self published sources can only be used for statements about the person and can`t be used as statements about third parties, as stated, those sources can`t be used in this article mark nutley (talk) 12:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually SPS can be used for information about themselves [[17]] So yes they can be used in this instance as its her twitter (and no one has denied its her blog entry as well) about something she said. Also we do not speculate on what she might or could do. She has made statements and unless you can prove she did not make them (and the twitter is defiantly hers) we report them.Slatersteven (talk) 12:16, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No you can`t use a forum post nor twitter as a source please read wp:rs and wp:sps if she regrets what she said then she would ask the newspaper to amend her article, she has not done so. mark nutley (talk) 12:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- You can use forums and twiter for persons statements, also she says she does not endorse the blogs views, so that is rather impoprtant too. She ealso does say its an axe griding “denialist” blog. This is not an endorsment of its sceince but its astheticshe mkes that clear). Also its not a review its a throw away line in an op-edd peice. As to why she caveats that is specualtion, she does caveat her opinion and that needs to be mentioned, i8f her opinion of this page is notable so are her re4asons for liking (and not liking it). That is what a review would be some one explaining what they like and dislkie about something.Slatersteven (talk) 11:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
From a WP:V and WP:RS perspective, I think an argument can be made that this meets the spirit of WP:SPS, although not necessarily its wording. I also think that a strong argument can be made that this blog comment is not important enough to bother including. After all, Virginia Heffernan is a journalist for the New York Times. She can easily write another article qualifying her recommendation or ask the New York Times to withdraw her article and she has done neither. I'm fine with my compromise proposal or the original paragraph without the addition of her blog comment. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I`m not arguing with you anymore slater, neither source is usable. Try to use them and they will be remove per wp:sps and wp:blp give it up mark nutley (talk) 12:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then we leave her endorment out as its clear its not as black and white as presented. It also in my opinoin WP:UNDUE. She is A TV journo this is not her area of expertise (and indead not even the subject of the artciel, its a couple of lines in an articel about probloms wiht science blogs not a review if the site).Slatersteven (talk) 12:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- [[18]] Here is the Watts blog reapeating the same stuff, so yes we can use it its repated by the subject of this artciel.it sted by the origional endorser. Non one has raised doudts that it is genuine (not even Watts)Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
How about this
New York Times columnist Virginia Heffernan recommended it with two others as a top Science blog on August 1, 2010 stating; "For science that’s accessible but credible, steer clear of polarizing hatefests like atheist or eco-apocalypse blogs. Instead, check out scientificamerican.com, discovermagazine.com and Anthony Watts’s blog, Watts Up With That?" subsequenlty Watts wrote in his blog that Heffernan later stated that she selected his blog in part because of its beautiful imagery, that she but is unfamiliar with the debates on science blogs and does not endorse its views."
This thus uses only material either nor from blogs or from Wattses own blog (the subject of this artciel.Slatersteven (talk) 15:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sadly we can`t use WUWT to source her opinions due to wp:sps. Personally i think the whole lot should be dropped as this is just a pain in the arse mark nutley (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- So we can't uxe her comments about her views, nor the person about whoes site she writes. Yes I think we should leave the whole thing out.It seems to me that any inclusio is a potential BLP violation. To include her origianl endorsemsnt wiiht out the caveat implies a degree of support she now denies. To include the Caveat appears to some3 (not by all means all) to be a BLP vioation.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nope, leave it in. The review that she gave was not retracted. If she wants to retract it she can do so at the New York Times. Minor4th 16:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I did not claim she retracted it she said she does not endorse its views, to leave that caveat out implies a degree of support that she does not give it, that would be a BLP violation.Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nope, leave it in. The review that she gave was not retracted. If she wants to retract it she can do so at the New York Times. Minor4th 16:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- So we can't uxe her comments about her views, nor the person about whoes site she writes. Yes I think we should leave the whole thing out.It seems to me that any inclusio is a potential BLP violation. To include her origianl endorsemsnt wiiht out the caveat implies a degree of support she now denies. To include the Caveat appears to some3 (not by all means all) to be a BLP vioation.Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I moved it out of the lede and into the criticism section. I reworded it to take out "top Science blog" and her exact recommendation is quoted. There is nothing in the review that suggests she endorses the views on that blog or the two others that she recommended with it.Minor4th 16:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- But she does go oin to make it clear that she does not endorse its views, as such to leave that out implies greater support she she intended, this is a BLP violation.Slatersteven (talk) 16:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Can you please explain exactly how this is a BLP violation?[19] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- It’s because she subsequently caveats her endorsement making it clear she does not endorse the sites views. As it stands the text implies that she unequivocally endorses the site with out reservations (which she does not) and thus misrepresents her views by taking a snap shot and providing no subsequent context, which she herself goes on to do.Slatersteven (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's the published, edited and fully vetted work of The New York Times - an organization that on a daily basis retracts, amends and clarifies items it has previously printed when it finds errors and omissions. The article still stands and is available from the publisher and no changes have been made to it. There really is no basis in usurping the Times by quoting comments from a blog in which anyone can sign any name and publish any comment indiscriminatly without any editorial control, oversight or hint of Reliable Source professionalism as is found, almost by definition, at The New York Times. The NYT's controls its voice and published work - it is not our place to decide for them what is or isn't said by them. It's the very antithesis of the Wiki-way to even suggest such a thing. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- No one (including Mr Watts) has said she did not issue the caveat. No one is saying that we say they did ot say this, just to make it clear that she does not fully indorse the blog's views. To explain she liked about it (that is after all what reviews are for).Slatersteven (talk) 18:18, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's the published, edited and fully vetted work of The New York Times - an organization that on a daily basis retracts, amends and clarifies items it has previously printed when it finds errors and omissions. The article still stands and is available from the publisher and no changes have been made to it. There really is no basis in usurping the Times by quoting comments from a blog in which anyone can sign any name and publish any comment indiscriminatly without any editorial control, oversight or hint of Reliable Source professionalism as is found, almost by definition, at The New York Times. The NYT's controls its voice and published work - it is not our place to decide for them what is or isn't said by them. It's the very antithesis of the Wiki-way to even suggest such a thing. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- It’s because she subsequently caveats her endorsement making it clear she does not endorse the sites views. As it stands the text implies that she unequivocally endorses the site with out reservations (which she does not) and thus misrepresents her views by taking a snap shot and providing no subsequent context, which she herself goes on to do.Slatersteven (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't find your argument compelling. The content isn't at all negative and it's sourced to The New York Times. As I pointed out earlier, Virginia Heffernan is a journalist for the New York Times. She can easily write another article qualifying her recommendation or ask the New York Times to withdraw her article and she has done neither. Also, WP:BLP emphasizes a person's privacy. Clearly, there is no violation of her privacy involved here. In fact, from a privacy perspective, I think a stronger argument can be made that including the blog comment is a violation of her privacy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
She can easily write another article qualifying her recommendation or ask the New York Times to withdraw her article and she has done neither. Utterly irrelevant and impossible to verify as a justification for an editorial stance. All we can say is that she wrote the first article and the blog comment. That's it. We have no idea what her relationship with the Times or the editors is and, even if we did, we're not supposed to act on such foresight. Please read WP:TWITTER. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The only BLP violation is in using comments ascribed to her personally from a blog user-comments section to usurp The New York Times. The prohibition against this use is absolute:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as the material is not unduly self-serving;it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);it does not involve;claims about events not directly related to the subject;there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;the article is not based primarily on such sources.
- This comment {non-vetted comments from a blog's random comment section and attributed to Heffernan) has claims about third-party people, organizations, or other entities and should not be included.
- The policy is crystal clear. Further policy controls our use of the Reliable Source.99.144.248.213 (talk) 18:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Lets mark this one resolved Minor4th 20:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nope! Read WP:TWITTER. We can use what she said to source her own opinions. I leave out the third-party opinions and the speculations about denialism. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
FWIW I agree this Heffernan quote shouldn't be in the lead. We'd not normally put views by a single reviewer in the lead of a media entity. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I have said I bleive that including this one (non experts) opinion on the value of this blog is a breach of undue. She is a TV oundit and her 'endoremset', mwas a one line recomendatio of the week she later partialy backtracked on. This does not therefore seem a ringing endorsement, it was not the the main purpose of her articel (nor was the artciel a review of this blog). Her opinion id being given the saem wieght as climate experts ans qaulified biologiosts, this is undue weight. If her views go anywehre it should be in a media respponse section, not a section that contains the views of experts (implying her view carries as much weight).Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I was having trouble following - I do see what you mean - we can solve that by placing in two paras - those who work in the field in the first, and the more media commentary in the second (?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I assume by paras you mean section such as
- ==climate change specialist== (not a very good title I know)
- ==Media comentry==
- I could live with that.Slatersteven (talk) 11:14, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I was having trouble following - I do see what you mean - we can solve that by placing in two paras - those who work in the field in the first, and the more media commentary in the second (?) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I just organised it into two rough paras (took a bit of a guess at who'd go in which and some could be argued either way...). I'd leave off the subheading names as it is sort of obvious how the commenters are divided (???) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Stop adding the unreliable source and otherwise deleting sourced material and moving paragraphs around to trash Anthony Watts and his blog. See RSN [20], and see policy quoted above. The matter is resolved. Minor4th 11:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The matter is not reloved, I still challenge her apperance.Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Consensus
The majority of commentators on this issue have either called for or have agreed to an outright removal of the Heffernan quote.
- Wikispan
- Stephan Schulz
- ScienceApologist
- Becritical
- Slatersteven
- William M. Connolley
- Cardamon
- Mangoe
- Wikidemon
- Casliber
Pursuant to this, I'm removing the content (once again). Please form a consensus before reinserting anything relating to Heffernan.
ScienceApologist (talk) 22:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- You missed one: [21]. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 22:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- First of all, a majority of editors does not a consensus make, second of all, you don't have a majority even. Lets look at the numbers.
For inclusion of the NYT sourced reviews without the self published Twitter feed/blog post:
- Minor4th
- marknutley
- Casliber - could go either way
- A Quest for Knowledge
- Wikispan -- either way
- Sloejoe17
- Torchwood (from RSN)
- II (from RSN)
- FellGleaming (adding my vote here myself)
- Various IP's, collectively counted as one editor
Not to mention the fact that policy is clear on this issue, and even a consensus of editors cannot override policy. This is not a BLP issue at all. Who is the BLP and what is the information that is negative toward that person? I want to point out also that this article is up for GA nomination, so definitely content should not be removed without a very clear consensus. We should be adding content to the article to improve it. With that in mind, can we please quit the edit warring, and think more in terms of getting this article in shape for GA review? Please. Maybe we should look at the state the article was in when it went to nomination and think about starting from there. Minor4th 23:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Provide diffs. Torchwood and II are ambiguous at best. Counting Casliber as supporting inclusion of Heffernan's comments without reference at all to her later statement of regret is contrary to what he has been writing. Wikispan placed a conditional on including other opinions if Heffernan's NYT piece by itself is included. Consensus is not certain in any case, so the default is to workshop here until we reach consensus. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- See my comment below in the GA section. I think we are in agreement for now to keep the content out. Perhaps at some point, the caveat will be covered in a way that we can paint the whole picture within Wiki sourcing guidelines, but for now we can't so ....Minor4th 01:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough. To summarize, I think that the difference is that I think that the Heffernan blog comments are about Heffernan's opinion while you think they are about Anthony Watts. She certainly was not trying to be diplomatic and the BLP issues are marginal in all directions, I think. When a critic engages in this back-and-forth with her own ideas, it's really hard to know what exactly to do. That's why keeping it out may be best for now. Also, please keep in mind that WP:TWITTER does exist. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- See my comment below in the GA section. I think we are in agreement for now to keep the content out. Perhaps at some point, the caveat will be covered in a way that we can paint the whole picture within Wiki sourcing guidelines, but for now we can't so ....Minor4th 01:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Provide diffs. Torchwood and II are ambiguous at best. Counting Casliber as supporting inclusion of Heffernan's comments without reference at all to her later statement of regret is contrary to what he has been writing. Wikispan placed a conditional on including other opinions if Heffernan's NYT piece by itself is included. Consensus is not certain in any case, so the default is to workshop here until we reach consensus. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- After some discussion on my talk page, we seem to be agreeing that including her recommendation and later caveat is appropriate, even if her caveat came by Twitter feed. In her caveat, she isn't retracting her recommendation of the blog, but saying that she doesn't endorse its views, and was sorry that her recomendation appeared to be idealogical. Cla68 (talk) 01:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Initially, I had just included a direct quote without any commentary. People didn't like that. Then we tried removing it. People didn't like that. Then I tried just to mention that she had later stated regret. People didn't like that neither at the end nor the beginning. Then we tried removing it again. People didn't like that. Then I tried to just include the sentence from NYT without additional statements. Below, AQFK doesn't like that. Now we've removed it again. Do people like it? Not sure. If you'd like the diffs, I'll provide them. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the summary of past discussion SA, but how about instead saying, "of all the compromises and suggestions offered so far on including both, which does everyone here prefer?" Then stand out of the way and let people voice their opinion. We seem to have made a decision on including "all" so let's get it moving. Cla68 (talk) 05:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- In the past, my using this technique has gotten us to an unsatisfactory return to a status quo where there was a complete omission of her "regret" statement. However, the discussion on your talk page may have sparked a paradigm shift in this talk page's culture. Let's see what happens over the next few days. ScienceApologist (talk) 06:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the summary of past discussion SA, but how about instead saying, "of all the compromises and suggestions offered so far on including both, which does everyone here prefer?" Then stand out of the way and let people voice their opinion. We seem to have made a decision on including "all" so let's get it moving. Cla68 (talk) 05:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Initially, I had just included a direct quote without any commentary. People didn't like that. Then we tried removing it. People didn't like that. Then I tried just to mention that she had later stated regret. People didn't like that neither at the end nor the beginning. Then we tried removing it again. People didn't like that. Then I tried to just include the sentence from NYT without additional statements. Below, AQFK doesn't like that. Now we've removed it again. Do people like it? Not sure. If you'd like the diffs, I'll provide them. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
To me the case seems to be absolutely clear: Per WP:V, verifiability in the technical sense is the "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia" (my italics), not for non-inclusion. Libraries are full of totally wrong and outdated information, and for much of it no contradicting statement can be found in reliable sources – either because none exists or because it is in an obscure place where we can't find it. When we know something is wrong, we don't say it. The standard for this is intentionally lower than that for saying something. This is not just common sense, it's also standard practice throughout Wikipedia. Of course the weight of retractions varies. If a philosopher or politician now thinks differently about something they wrote 60 years ago, it will be enough to make clear when the original statement was made. But this is not such a case. Hans Adler 15:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Comments and criticism
I am not too sure what this section is actually about is it about Comments and criticism of WUWT or Comments and criticism that has appeared on WUWT? If is it (as I suspect) the former then why is Fox’s use of pictures there, its not a comment or a critismism it’s a use. Also the 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley material is not a Comment or a criticism of WUWT its Comments and criticism appearing on WUWT.Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it would appear there is a certain heterogeneity about it...Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is. This is too piecemeal and disjointed. Ideally, all of those comments should be interwoven within the text of the rest of the article. Criticism sections are really not good form. Minor4th 21:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well, may articles have a 'reception' section, that's true. But some of it needs rejuggling. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe some proposals here? Let's see if we can't work some of it into the main text. Also, is there anything else notable about the blog that should be considered for this article? I have never read the blog and I'm not really familiar with whether it has been otherwise covered or if there's anything else notable that can be said.Minor4th 21:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Fox and Monckton snippets should be moved into a history section. Actually, I'd incorporate the Involvement in the Climatic Research Unit email controversy and Temperature records project sections as subsections in a history bit as well. It also needs a section on background or founding which is where there can be some notes on Anthony Watts and how/why he set the blog up. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. Please see my comment above about the GA nomination. If you are interested in this article in particular, please work with me to try to get the article stable and in good shape for Good Article review. I am going to look and see what the state of the article was when it was nominated and see if that is a better starting point than where we are now. I will also be making a new section heading with a plea to stop edit warring so this article can be improved and reviewed under GA criteria. By the way, I agree with you about the background -- good idea and good way to improve this article right off the bat. Minor4th 23:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit I am sorta curious, I just haven't the foggiest where to find the sourced info. But will try to keep an eye on things and help out where I can. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- In my experience, most information on blogs is found, unfortunately, in other blogs. I believe, however, that because of this blog's significant involvement in the Climategate affair, that the books on the incident which should be coming out over the next few months will provide a lot more information about Watts Up that we'll be able to use in this article. I have one book on order right now which might provide some more detail as soon as it arrives. Cla68 (talk) 08:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit I am sorta curious, I just haven't the foggiest where to find the sourced info. But will try to keep an eye on things and help out where I can. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. Please see my comment above about the GA nomination. If you are interested in this article in particular, please work with me to try to get the article stable and in good shape for Good Article review. I am going to look and see what the state of the article was when it was nominated and see if that is a better starting point than where we are now. I will also be making a new section heading with a plea to stop edit warring so this article can be improved and reviewed under GA criteria. By the way, I agree with you about the background -- good idea and good way to improve this article right off the bat. Minor4th 23:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Fox and Monckton snippets should be moved into a history section. Actually, I'd incorporate the Involvement in the Climatic Research Unit email controversy and Temperature records project sections as subsections in a history bit as well. It also needs a section on background or founding which is where there can be some notes on Anthony Watts and how/why he set the blog up. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe some proposals here? Let's see if we can't work some of it into the main text. Also, is there anything else notable about the blog that should be considered for this article? I have never read the blog and I'm not really familiar with whether it has been otherwise covered or if there's anything else notable that can be said.Minor4th 21:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well, may articles have a 'reception' section, that's true. But some of it needs rejuggling. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is. This is too piecemeal and disjointed. Ideally, all of those comments should be interwoven within the text of the rest of the article. Criticism sections are really not good form. Minor4th 21:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
WP:CRYSTAL and WP:Eventualism. What happens in the future happens in the future. For now, we're stuck writing about this blog without the benefit of all these books coming out. In the interest of heading toward GA, I think merging to Anthony Watts (blogger) will be a great step forward. ScienceApologist (talk) 08:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Merge? There is already enough sourcing in this article to establish its notability. It's Alexa rank alone does so also, as it gets much higher traffic numbers than the other two major CC blogs, RealClimate and Climate Audit. Cla68 (talk) 13:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- WP:CFORK is what I'm driving at. I think the two articles go well together and we can always spin-off later. Right now, I don't think that the two article by themselves are very good, but together they might be better. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
GA nom and Peer Review
This article was nominated for Good Article in July 2010. I just checked the state of the article when it was nominated, and it is really not a whole lot different now. I am asking all editors involved in editing this article, please no more edit warring so that we can get the article stable before it is reviewed. In that spirit, although I think the NYT review belongs in the article, I am refraining from adding it back in and ask that other editors also just leave that issue alone for now. I am going to request peer review of this article so we can get some outside input with an eye towards getting the article in shape for GA review. Please be respectful of the peer review process and disengage from reverts and advocacy on this article. Minor4th 00:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate your good faith attempt here. I removed the interpretations that had been placed in the sentence about the Heffernan piece and also the unrelated aspersions cast on other blogs made by Heffernan. The statement is at least now neutral and not undue. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Having thought about it further, and after talking to myself on Cla's talk page, I actually now agree with you that it should be removed because there's no way to present the complete picture within Wiki sourcing guidelines. I have not reviewed your edits, but on this issue, I think we now agree. Minor4th 01:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Its looking better. The history section might need some header re-wording but thats a minor issue.Slatersteven (talk) 11
- 58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
"This Week's Recommendations"
Color me naive, but how wonderful it would be if editors took the time to actually read the source before making bad edits such as this one. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Read it. If we can't be convinced that she is actually expressing "regret" when she says, "One regret", how can we be sure she's recommending it when she writes "recommendation". At least we can all agree that the sentence in question is what she wrote, correct? Commentary otherwise is irrelevant. Also, there doesn't seem to be much point in including her attacks on atheist blogs. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ummm....because it clearly states, "This Week's Recommendations"? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- And she clearly stated "One regret: the Watts blog". The point is that we don't know what sort of "recommendation" it is just as we don't know what sort of "regret" it is. Good for the goose and good for the gander. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- You appear to be taking this content dispute a little too personally SA. Cla68 (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I am just trying to be judicious. Either we apply the rules consistently or we don't, right? ScienceApologist (talk) 01:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- You appear to be taking this content dispute a little too personally SA. Cla68 (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- And she clearly stated "One regret: the Watts blog". The point is that we don't know what sort of "recommendation" it is just as we don't know what sort of "regret" it is. Good for the goose and good for the gander. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ummm....because it clearly states, "This Week's Recommendations"? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- ScienceApologist: Your comment makes no sense since I've already offered 2 compromises above which include her blog comment. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- But, unfortunately, no one on the "other side" liked those compromises though I was willing to work with them. They were shot down before I even had a chance to see them. If the consensus is to just include the sentence from NYT, then I think all we can really do is include the sentence. All other commentary needs to be excised. I'm just trying to be fair here. I actually liked a few of your compromise suggestions. Oh well. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Prety much the comprom8ise was rejected by those who want material in. I wouold also have to say that we do know what her recomoendation was, she says so in her blog entry.Slatersteven (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- But, unfortunately, no one on the "other side" liked those compromises though I was willing to work with them. They were shot down before I even had a chance to see them. If the consensus is to just include the sentence from NYT, then I think all we can really do is include the sentence. All other commentary needs to be excised. I'm just trying to be fair here. I actually liked a few of your compromise suggestions. Oh well. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- ScienceApologist: Your comment makes no sense since I've already offered 2 compromises above which include her blog comment. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Other issues
- The lede has information that is not found anywhere else in the article. There are reviews and references to awards in the leded, and they are sourced well, but they are not in the relevant sections of the article.
- I've removed the NYT for now to workshop that content and let it settle a bit. I have come to agree that we cannot present the entire story about that recommendation and still keep it within sourcing guidelines. There were several who felt strongly about removing it -- if there are those who feel as strongly about keeping it, let's continue the discussion.
- Didn't Monbiot retract his commentary about the blog too? Seems like I remember some talk page discussion related to this. If that's the case, then we need to look at whether his commentary should stand as written.
Please add to list and check off items as they're addressed. Minor4th 01:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with your first point, but the weblog awards controversy is a weird one now erupting over at Talk:Anthony Watts (blogger). I'm not entirely convinced that this article should be independent of Anthony Watts (blogger). Where was the discussion about these two things being separate? I can't find it. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Has there ever been a merge discussion? The article might be easier to write if it's combined -- not sure. Minor4th 04:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I can't find any evidence of a merge discussion, but I think there is a lot of synergy between Watts' blog and his other projects. The ideal way to write articles in Wikipedia is to content fork: that is combine all the information and only fork after it's gotten too big. I think that the content here could easily be put into one section of the Anthony Watts article. If it gets too big, then we can always recreate this article. As it is, however, I think it much more likely to get a combined article to GA-status rather than this one or that one by itself. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Merging mighe a good idea. Also lets have an awards section and move (or give greater detail of any material not in body but in lead to body.Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I can't find any evidence of a merge discussion, but I think there is a lot of synergy between Watts' blog and his other projects. The ideal way to write articles in Wikipedia is to content fork: that is combine all the information and only fork after it's gotten too big. I think that the content here could easily be put into one section of the Anthony Watts article. If it gets too big, then we can always recreate this article. As it is, however, I think it much more likely to get a combined article to GA-status rather than this one or that one by itself. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Has there ever been a merge discussion? The article might be easier to write if it's combined -- not sure. Minor4th 04:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with your first point, but the weblog awards controversy is a weird one now erupting over at Talk:Anthony Watts (blogger). I'm not entirely convinced that this article should be independent of Anthony Watts (blogger). Where was the discussion about these two things being separate? I can't find it. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
not in citation given
From the article:
“ | In 2010, Fox News asked for permission to use exclusive photographs of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig disaster which had been posted on WUWT."The DeepWater Explosion: How the Gulf Oil Spill Began". Fox News. May 4, 2010. | ” |
I looked at the citation and it is just a photo gallery without any reference to their "permission to use exclusive photographs". It does say "Courtesy of Watts Up With That?" and "courtesy of geologist Jimmy Haigh, and Watts Up With That?", but can someone verify that the permission was asked for in some other way?
ScienceApologist (talk) 06:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- In that case this should be changed too (though I'm not sure what relevacne this has eihter) to
“ | In 2010, Fox News used exclusive photographs of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig disaster which had been posted on WUWT."The DeepWater Explosion: How the Gulf Oil Spill Began". Fox News. May 4, 2010. | ” |
Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- You're on a fishing expedition here. The phrase "courtesy of" is journalistic-speak, meaning permission was requested and given. Fell Gleamingtalk 12:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- A doubt was raised and we discuse it. So why not (as it appears to have ucasued confusion) use those words? Also was permision asked or were the photos used on an open license with an aknowlegment clause? Here we go [[22]] of course we can't use it its discusing a third party on a blog hsame that.Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- It hasn't caused any confusion. The version you promote will, however, by suggesting that Fox may have used exclusive photos without permission. And WUWT has no open license policy. Fell Gleamingtalk 12:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- A doubt was raised and we discuse it. So why not (as it appears to have ucasued confusion) use those words? Also was permision asked or were the photos used on an open license with an aknowlegment clause? Here we go [[22]] of course we can't use it its discusing a third party on a blog hsame that.Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- You're on a fishing expedition here. The phrase "courtesy of" is journalistic-speak, meaning permission was requested and given. Fell Gleamingtalk 12:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
New porposal
“ | In 2010, Fox News used exclusive photographs of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig disaster courtesy of WUWT."The DeepWater Explosion: How the Gulf Oil Spill Began". Fox News. May 4, 2010. | ” |
Slatersteven (talk) 12:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- If no one else bothered to comment on this (other than Fox News giving credit), isn't it non-notable trivia? Guettarda (talk) 13:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thats a good point.Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Isn't Fox News the predominant television news source in the United States? If they use photographs from this blog, that seems notable to me. Cla68 (talk) 14:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- If they used an image from Wikipedia, would be add that info to Wikipedia? For that matter, would we list every time a major news outlet has quoted WUWT? Again - would we list every time a major news outlet has quoted Wikipedia? Of course not. Because it's trivia. Guettarda (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sure we would, because it would be easy to summarize in a single sentence, "Images from the blog have been used by major news organizations including Fox, CNN, [and whatever]." If I were reading an article on this blog, that would be useful information for me because it tells me something about the blog's role in news reporting and distribution. Cla68 (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- The new form is misleading. Fox didn't simply use the photographs; they requested (and were granted) permission to use them. Further, the fact that a major network made such a request is what makes the entire incident notable. Fell Gleamingtalk 00:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree that we can assume that the network asked permission since the source doesn't say that. Cla68 (talk) 00:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- The source does say that. That's what the phrase "courtesy of" means. This is Journalism 101, people. Fell Gleamingtalk 01:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree that we can assume that the network asked permission since the source doesn't say that. Cla68 (talk) 00:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- The new form is misleading. Fox didn't simply use the photographs; they requested (and were granted) permission to use them. Further, the fact that a major network made such a request is what makes the entire incident notable. Fell Gleamingtalk 00:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sure we would, because it would be easy to summarize in a single sentence, "Images from the blog have been used by major news organizations including Fox, CNN, [and whatever]." If I were reading an article on this blog, that would be useful information for me because it tells me something about the blog's role in news reporting and distribution. Cla68 (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- If they used an image from Wikipedia, would be add that info to Wikipedia? For that matter, would we list every time a major news outlet has quoted WUWT? Again - would we list every time a major news outlet has quoted Wikipedia? Of course not. Because it's trivia. Guettarda (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Isn't Fox News the predominant television news source in the United States? If they use photographs from this blog, that seems notable to me. Cla68 (talk) 14:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thats a good point.Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I've never taken Journalism 101. Can you show me proof that this is the definition of "courtesy of"? It's not how we use the phrase in scientific presentations. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- You can look up the definition of the phrase here [23], or read about how a specific image provider uses it here [24]. Or you can ask any journalist what it means. It means you've been given permission to use the image. Fell Gleamingtalk 10:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- These didn't really do the trick, sorry. ScienceApologist (talk) 10:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Neuronculture
After carefully rereading WP policy on verifiability, I've come to the conclusion this source cannot be used, especially in a BLP. The touchstone here is verifiability, not truth, to directly quote policy. By Hefferman's own Twitter admission, it is a personal blog without editorial control. That leaves only Hefferman's tweet as a potential source...and that doesn't specify who or what she may be regretting. Fell Gleamingtalk 12:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- But is can be verified she said it, so it does not fail verifiability. Also it seems that the RSN board seems to think it might be OK as long as wekk make sure its writen to vmake it clear thnis is just heropinion, and where she said it.12:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Slatersteven (talk)
- The only BLP violation is in using comments ascribed to her personally from a blog user-comments section to usurp The New York Times. The prohibition against this use is absolute:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as the material is not unduly self-serving;it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);it does not involve;claims about events not directly related to the subject;there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;the article is not based primarily on such sources.
- This comment {non-vetted comments from a blog's random comment section and attributed to Heffernan) has claims about third-party people, organizations, or other entities and should not be included.
- The policy is crystal clear. Further policy controls our use of the Reliable Source.99.144.248.213 (talk) 13:21, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- 213 (You don't mind if you call you 213, I hope?) your intepretation is precisely correct. While I personally have little doubt they are Hefferman's comments, the fact remains that referencing them is a clear violation of WP verifiability policy. The only self-published source that can be used for comments about Hefferman is Hefferman herself. Fell Gleamingtalk 13:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- The policy is crystal clear. Further policy controls our use of the Reliable Source.99.144.248.213 (talk) 13:21, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think your interpritatioin is faulty. Is some one says they disagree wiht something they are saying what they think. That person is RS for that view. So the blog entry is RS for the fact she does not endorse something views. She is not saying if those voews are right or wrong, just that she herslef does not endorse then. She is not commenting of whterh or not Watts views are correct. She is not commenting onm Watts but on her views.Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- This is very simple. Neuronculture is a personal blog. It can only be used as a source for opinion's of it's own authors, not the opinions of Hefferman. Now, excluding Neuronculture, what source do we have that says Hefferman regrets her recommendation in any way? None. Fell Gleamingtalk 13:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think your interpritatioin is faulty. Is some one says they disagree wiht something they are saying what they think. That person is RS for that view. So the blog entry is RS for the fact she does not endorse something views. She is not saying if those voews are right or wrong, just that she herslef does not endorse then. She is not commenting of whterh or not Watts views are correct. She is not commenting onm Watts but on her views.Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Policy does not support that, she made the blog entry, also (as I bleive has been popinted out) there is also the twitter material.Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Is there a valid, policy-based reason for exclusion? HINT: WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Let me also add that Heffernan has it within her power, if she so chose, to use the already in place mechanism that the NYT's has available to staff to rectify any "errors, omissions, amplifications or clarifications" in its published works. This is in addition to the Times Public Editor. A simple edit, something done a number of times each day, at the bottom of the article is the norm. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 13:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)I agree to some extent, I don't think the Neuronculture comments are suitable for the article, but they do mean that adding the original quote from the NYT without any qualification is misleading to the readers. It amounts to deception by half-truth, giving the impression that VH unhesitatingly recommends WUWT, and that is clearly not true. No amount of wiki-lawyering changes that. Both original NYT comment and the Neuronculture 'regret' should be kept out of the article. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 13:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes Undue. Why is this persons single line recommendation of the week (in an article not about the subject of this article) notable enough for inclusion alongside experts and persons of a scientific background? It giving undue weight to the views of some one who goes on to admit that she does not really understand the subject (more or less) or the controversy (oh and by the way we will also be including material that has caused her to backtrack (as a result of pressure) with out including the backtracking so may expose her to the very kinds of attention over this matter (that caused her to backtrack in the first place) when she herself has attempted to distance herself from it, that I think could constitute a BLP violation, and thus forcing her to possibly have to issue another caveat.Slatersteven (talk) 13:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I remind you again of basic WP policy. Allow me to quote: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." There is no reliable source that expresses Hefferman's regret (and its not even clear in the Neuron source that she regrets her recommendation; it seems much more likely that she simply replied to the blog's angry email, letting him know she regrets how he interpreted it) Fell Gleamingtalk 13:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- And, by the way, if you're going to claim a NYT journalist's opinion isn't notable in a section listing opinions about a blog, you're going to have to go through ever climate change article, excising the opinion of Monbiot and other journalists that are regularly accepted as notable. Let's have a little consistency here. Fell Gleamingtalk 13:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nor is WP:OTHERSTUFF a reason to keep it. Why is her view notable when in one line in an articel not about the blog, but about science blogs in general (and actualy about an issue that this blog was not even part of Pepsigate. Also the issue of any potential embarisment to her by inclusion of this has not been dealt with.Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is no requirement to stuff in every single thing about a subject. Editorial judgement is required, and bearing in mind that encyclopedias are supposed to inform, it seems to me to be a good idea not to include material that will mislead the reader. Insisting on including VH's NYT comment without any caveat and insisting that her further comments cannot be included looks to me like wikilawyering to tendentious ends. It's dishonest. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 14:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- The dishonesty here is the endless attempts to remove a relevant, interesting, verifiable fact from the article by an ever-more-ludicrous set of arguments, simply because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You people have gone from "her twitter remarks are highly relevant" to "her professional work in the New York Times aren't relevant". The attempts to use non-reliable sources, the blatant distortion of those sources and -- best of all -- a hilarious attempt to invoke WP:UNDUE by an editor who either has never read the policy, or doesn't understand at least half the words in it. All this, simply because a journalist dared to express a positive opinion? Talk about McCarthyism. Fell Gleamingtalk 00:43, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- And, by the way, if you're going to claim a NYT journalist's opinion isn't notable in a section listing opinions about a blog, you're going to have to go through ever climate change article, excising the opinion of Monbiot and other journalists that are regularly accepted as notable. Let's have a little consistency here. Fell Gleamingtalk 13:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I remind you again of basic WP policy. Allow me to quote: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." There is no reliable source that expresses Hefferman's regret (and its not even clear in the Neuron source that she regrets her recommendation; it seems much more likely that she simply replied to the blog's angry email, letting him know she regrets how he interpreted it) Fell Gleamingtalk 13:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Undue weight to the New York Times?
The argument that we're giving undue weight to the New York Times is also bogus. Please remember weight is not a binary 0/1 switch. Rather, weight is something that is proportional. Weight should be assigned based on prominence in third-party reliable sources. So, to say that the New York Times is getting undue weight is to say that other reliable sources, such as the Los Angeles Times or the Washington Post, aren't getting enough coverage. So, can anyone point me to some other articles from other mainstream newspapers that are being excluded from this article? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I am sorry its not the NTY that under question its Ms Hoffoenman.Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but are there now two publications or authors under discussion here? Is Hoffoenman at the NTY now relevant, is he being introduced as a RS secondary source? Can you link to this?99.144.248.213 (talk) 14:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- LOL sorry spelling mistake (I flunked Hogwatrs) I of cource meant Ms Heffernan. Thnak you for pointing out my error.Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but are there now two publications or authors under discussion here? Is Hoffoenman at the NTY now relevant, is he being introduced as a RS secondary source? Can you link to this?99.144.248.213 (talk) 14:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
her view is notable as she is a well known critic and columnist, and her opinion was published in a widely read source. Given that WUWT is a blog meant to be accessible to laymen, the opinion of a well known critic is perhaps more notable than any other source. Fell Gleamingtalk 14:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is she were a scientist or commentaor on the enviroamnt I would agree, she is not. She is a media commentator who goes on to admit she does not unnderstand many of the issues involvded. Moreover its a one line comment in an artciel about a largley unreted subject (IE is about pepsi gate and not climate change).Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- (a) This is not a scientific paper, but a blog intended to be interesting and accessible to laymen. Her opinion makes clear that it is. As for her claiming to "understand the issues involved", do you have a reliable source that states that? Fell Gleamingtalk 14:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have no problem with it being in as long as her caveat from the blog (her own personal opinion and no fact about a third party) is included too. To include the NYT and not the subsequent comment is too far a deviation. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well we have her blog entry where she says that “I’m a stranger to the debates on science blogs” and “I didn’t even know about denialism” So she admits she did not understand what her endoresemtn meant, ior what the isseus invoilolved are. It will also be the case that her caveat will not be allowed in its current form.Slatersteven (talk) 14:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- To get from her blog comments to what you're claiming requires synthesis. Unfortunately, that's not allowed. Fell Gleamingtalk 14:55, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- We can say she regrets her endorsement however, that (a) isn't synthesis (b) is her opinion and doesn't cover any facts about a third party. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Its also not synthasis to say that she is a stranger to the bedate and that she does ot know what denialism is (after all she has never heard of it. So seits that she does not understand the issues becasue she has never heard ther are any issues.Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then it follows, "c" - it has no secondary RS attesting as to its notability, it is not itself reliably sourced and it has no use here. Perhaps at the Heffernan Bio? 99.144.248.213 (talk) 15:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- How?Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Heffernan's alleged comments in an unvetted public comment section do nothing to Un-verify the professional, reliably sourced, notable and published work of the NYT. A retraction or clarification is well within her power and is a common occurrence at the NYT for all manner of trivial to substantive issues. Our place is not to second guess the publisher or editors, or even in this case the author who has yet to amend in any way the displayed work at the NYT. If you feel this incident is notable in Re:Heffernan, use the bio. It has no notability here re:NYT and its published work regarding the article's subject. The reporters alleged lamentations regarding its reception are at best a personal footnote, one I doubt very much would even be found reliably sourced or notable enough for mention at her wiki:bio. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 15:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I was not aware that any one had said it un-verifed what she wrote (and I fail, to see how you get that idea). Nor is the fact she has not retracted it on the NYT's site relevant, she may well assume that she has now exlpained her actiosn and bleives the matter dead (which is why I say this may be a BLP viol,ation wwe are opein g up a debate that she had attmepted to close wiht her statment).Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Your suppositions, assumptions and leaps of logical faith start, finish and in the end still amount to simple WP:OR. Please revisit our foundation level principle regarding WP:Verify. It is clear: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." .99.144.248.213 (talk) 15:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- When have I sdaid that none of what she wrtoe is unture, it is in fact you who are trying to claim she has not said something. I have never queationed that she wrote this article in th NYT, just why her view is relevant. I also ppoint out that she has said " I'm extremely sorry the recommendation seemed ideological" She has appoligised for what she has said. How is that not trying to draw a line under this and stop the accusations she supports its views?. If we publish this it makes it look like she never appolissed for saying something, how is that not a BPL violation?Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- From your "position" on the matter: "Nor is the fact... relevant. she may well assume ... she may well bleives ... she had attmepted... I sdaid that none of what she wrtoe is unture " You appear to be highly involved in a bout of WP:OR.99.144.248.213 (talk) 16:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I will again ask when have I said that she has not writen something? Also I would ask that you do not alter what I have writen to make itr seem like I have writen something I have not. ewven if I have engadged in OR in making assumtions about why she issued her appology that does not indicate I have said she never wrote the NYT articel or that I have attempted to un-verify it (whatever that is supposed to mean).Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Amongst others, and just in the post above. You stated that facts were not relevant, and then you gave relevance to your personal interpretation of what you felt were her assumptions, beliefs and her goal that she was "attempting". 99.144.248.213 (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I will ask you one more time not to misrepresent what I say, nor to edit my comments to alter their meaning.Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Amongst others, and just in the post above. You stated that facts were not relevant, and then you gave relevance to your personal interpretation of what you felt were her assumptions, beliefs and her goal that she was "attempting". 99.144.248.213 (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I will again ask when have I said that she has not writen something? Also I would ask that you do not alter what I have writen to make itr seem like I have writen something I have not. ewven if I have engadged in OR in making assumtions about why she issued her appology that does not indicate I have said she never wrote the NYT articel or that I have attempted to un-verify it (whatever that is supposed to mean).Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- From your "position" on the matter: "Nor is the fact... relevant. she may well assume ... she may well bleives ... she had attmepted... I sdaid that none of what she wrtoe is unture " You appear to be highly involved in a bout of WP:OR.99.144.248.213 (talk) 16:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- When have I sdaid that none of what she wrtoe is unture, it is in fact you who are trying to claim she has not said something. I have never queationed that she wrote this article in th NYT, just why her view is relevant. I also ppoint out that she has said " I'm extremely sorry the recommendation seemed ideological" She has appoligised for what she has said. How is that not trying to draw a line under this and stop the accusations she supports its views?. If we publish this it makes it look like she never appolissed for saying something, how is that not a BPL violation?Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Your suppositions, assumptions and leaps of logical faith start, finish and in the end still amount to simple WP:OR. Please revisit our foundation level principle regarding WP:Verify. It is clear: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." .99.144.248.213 (talk) 15:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I was not aware that any one had said it un-verifed what she wrote (and I fail, to see how you get that idea). Nor is the fact she has not retracted it on the NYT's site relevant, she may well assume that she has now exlpained her actiosn and bleives the matter dead (which is why I say this may be a BLP viol,ation wwe are opein g up a debate that she had attmepted to close wiht her statment).Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Heffernan's alleged comments in an unvetted public comment section do nothing to Un-verify the professional, reliably sourced, notable and published work of the NYT. A retraction or clarification is well within her power and is a common occurrence at the NYT for all manner of trivial to substantive issues. Our place is not to second guess the publisher or editors, or even in this case the author who has yet to amend in any way the displayed work at the NYT. If you feel this incident is notable in Re:Heffernan, use the bio. It has no notability here re:NYT and its published work regarding the article's subject. The reporters alleged lamentations regarding its reception are at best a personal footnote, one I doubt very much would even be found reliably sourced or notable enough for mention at her wiki:bio. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 15:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- How?Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then it follows, "c" - it has no secondary RS attesting as to its notability, it is not itself reliably sourced and it has no use here. Perhaps at the Heffernan Bio? 99.144.248.213 (talk) 15:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- To get from her blog comments to what you're claiming requires synthesis. Unfortunately, that's not allowed. Fell Gleamingtalk 14:55, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- (a) This is not a scientific paper, but a blog intended to be interesting and accessible to laymen. Her opinion makes clear that it is. As for her claiming to "understand the issues involved", do you have a reliable source that states that? Fell Gleamingtalk 14:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Slatersteven: I'm still waiting for your list of sources from other mainstream newspapers that are being excluded from this article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I have repeatedly said I am not questioning the NYT I am questioning why her views relevant. If she were an environmental writer then I would have no objection, she is not. How many otehr media commoontators are represented in the articel?Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I only address that which you write, and I can only address it as it is written. If it fails to effectively communicate the concepts, thoughts or message that you intended the problem lies within one of us. No one will ever be %100 successful with all readers, it's incumbent upon you to communicate as clearly and effectively as you can, nothing more can be done. My apologies if I failed you as the reader.99.144.248.213 (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then you can provide the Diff where I say "that facts were not relevant".Slatersteven (talk) 16:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- It was actually a pretty interesting stretch, you said, "Nor is the fact she has not retracted it on the NYT's site relevant" which was a unique and original way to argue that the continued existence of a reliably sourced and notable publication somehow does not, in and of self, have greater hold on reality than a retraction that does not exist. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is not relevant that she has not withdrawn an endorsement as she has not retracted the endorsment she had made a public apology elsewhere. What she has done is to issue a public apology that her endorsement was seen as an endorsement of the blogs views (which she explicitly says is not the case). If we ignore that public apology then we are ignoring her views and wishes (and it is perfectly logical to assume that the apology was an attempt to draw a line under the issue). That is a BLP violation. Thank you for acknowledging that I have never said facts are irrelevant.Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- It was actually a pretty interesting stretch, you said, "Nor is the fact she has not retracted it on the NYT's site relevant" which was a unique and original way to argue that the continued existence of a reliably sourced and notable publication somehow does not, in and of self, have greater hold on reality than a retraction that does not exist. 99.144.248.213 (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then you can provide the Diff where I say "that facts were not relevant".Slatersteven (talk) 16:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I only address that which you write, and I can only address it as it is written. If it fails to effectively communicate the concepts, thoughts or message that you intended the problem lies within one of us. No one will ever be %100 successful with all readers, it's incumbent upon you to communicate as clearly and effectively as you can, nothing more can be done. My apologies if I failed you as the reader.99.144.248.213 (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
She has not "made a public apology". That's the most tendentious interpretation I've heard yet. Had she truly any regrets or reservations about her endorsement, the NYT has a very clear-cut policy for issuing retractions or updates in such a case. Since she's chosen to not take any public action, it seems clear she still stands by her remarks 100%. Fell Gleamingtalk 00:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Dear IP, re " it has no secondary RS attesting as to its notability" - applies to articles, so not relevant here. Fact is, she said it and our rules as per WP:TWITTER allow it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Using comments ascribed to her personally from a blog user-comments section to usurp The New York Times is prohibited:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as the material is not unduly self-serving;it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);it does not involve;claims about events not directly related to the subject;there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;the article is not based primarily on such sources. This comment {non-vetted comments from a blog's random comment section and attributed to Heffernan) has claims about third-party people, organizations, or other entities and should not be included.
- The policy is crystal clear. Further policy controls our use of the Reliable Source.99.144.248.213 (talk) 17:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Slatersteven: Again, WP:WEIGHT is about relative proportion. In order for you to argue that the New York Times is getting undue weight, you need to provide a list of articles from other major newspapers which are being excluded from this article. Can you please provide this list? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I say again this is not about the NYT, its about one colonist, the only non environment columnist being used for a one line quote from an article not about the subject of this article. I am not arguing the NYT is getting undue weight I am arguing the views of one colonist is. Her views are being put alongside persons who have knowledge of or work in the field of CC. When she is the only media commentator in the article. Why is her endorsement notable?[[ciel.Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: OK, then show me what other columnists are being excluded from the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Does her view carry as much weight as an environment columnist? That is my point. Hers is the only view that does not represent those of someone with an interest in the field but are being given as much weight as those who work (or have knowledge) of the field. That is what I mean, she is not an expert in climate change, or even an amateur. But her own admission she knows nothing about climate change blogs. This is a media commentator making a comment (as she goes on to say) about user friendliness of its science. As such putting her in the same place as specialist in the field is undue.Slatersteven (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC).
- WUWT is not an environmental blog, period. Unless you understand what you're writing about, you're not going to be able to contribute productively. Your argument is like claiming a NYT movie critic's opinion on a movie is worthless, if that movie contains what you perceive to be some environmental message. Ludicrous. Fell Gleamingtalk 17:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Does her view carry as much weight as an environment columnist? That is my point. Hers is the only view that does not represent those of someone with an interest in the field but are being given as much weight as those who work (or have knowledge) of the field. That is what I mean, she is not an expert in climate change, or even an amateur. But her own admission she knows nothing about climate change blogs. This is a media commentator making a comment (as she goes on to say) about user friendliness of its science. As such putting her in the same place as specialist in the field is undue.Slatersteven (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC).
- Slatersteven: You're just not getting it. WP:WEIGHT is about proportion. In order for you to argue that it's undue weight, you have to provide the sources you think deserve more weight. So far, you have not provided a single source. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- She is being given as much weight as sources already in the article out of proportion to the importance of her comments. In fact she receives twice as much coverage as writers on the subject of science. This is out of proportion given not only the ‘length’ of her review (on line, others who have written whole articles receive less coverage). The fact that its was a reviews of its user friendliness not its science and the fact she goes on to issue an apology about being ms-understood as to her intentions with regards the recommendation means it should receive less attention then those who work in the fields the blog covers. Either that or she is separated out .Slatersteven (talk) 17:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: You're just not getting it. WP:WEIGHT is about proportion. In order for you to argue that it's undue weight, you have to provide the sources you think deserve more weight. So far, you have not provided a single source. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: OK, then which sources do you think should be given more room? BTW, she did not apologize. She said that she regrets that other people misunderstood her recommendation as being ideological. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- George Monbiot and Leo Hickman combined receives about the same amount of coverage (two lines, even though they actually have interests in the field). Matt Ridley receives about the same amount as here, despite having a background in science. OK so she said she was sorry her views had been m is-understood (or to be exact “and I’m extremely sorry the recommendation seemed ideological.”) that reads like some one trying to draw a line under the issue by saying sorry.Slatersteven (talk) 18:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: OK, then which sources do you think should be given more room? BTW, she did not apologize. She said that she regrets that other people misunderstood her recommendation as being ideological. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa Slater, you have the entire concept of undue weight wrong. It's not about sources of opinions, it's about the opinions themselves. In other words, if the majority of notable critics think WUWT is a steaming pile of doggie doo, then it out be WP:UNDUE to include only those who disagree. To make an undue argument requires showing that the opinion being expressed is given undue weight, not that the person expressing the opinion is. I am therefore removing the undue tag as inappropriate. Fell Gleamingtalk 18:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- “Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject.” So it does not only cover the 'opinions themselves, because its not just about opinions ( I would also request you do not shout). I would say that she recives for more wieght then her views deserve. Given her importance to the subject (a science blog). By all means if we have a section on media reponse include her. But her views on this page (qouted in full, thats how little there is) at this time have far more coverage then they deserveSlatersteven (talk) 18:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Come Slater, this isn't rocket science. Undue applies to any aspect of the subject of the article. Not an aspect of some source about the subject. If you think other critics opinions are being left out, then cite them here. Fell Gleamingtalk 18:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- How are her views significant to the subject of the artciel? Her views are an aspect of the article, they are not seperate from it. As such her views have to be represented in prportion to their relevance.Slatersteven (talk) 18:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm unsure if you're intentionally being opaque or not, but I'll try one more time. You're focusing on the "her" in her views. For an undue argument to be sound, however, you must focus on the "view" itself, not the source of the view. In other words, are we giving too much weight to the viewpoint that WUWT is a blog that's "accessible but credible"? The source of that comment CANNOT be used to make an undue argument (though it can be used to invoke notability or reliability claims). Do you understand now? Fell Gleamingtalk 18:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I shall seek clarififacation of this.Slatersteven (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm unsure if you're intentionally being opaque or not, but I'll try one more time. You're focusing on the "her" in her views. For an undue argument to be sound, however, you must focus on the "view" itself, not the source of the view. In other words, are we giving too much weight to the viewpoint that WUWT is a blog that's "accessible but credible"? The source of that comment CANNOT be used to make an undue argument (though it can be used to invoke notability or reliability claims). Do you understand now? Fell Gleamingtalk 18:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- How are her views significant to the subject of the artciel? Her views are an aspect of the article, they are not seperate from it. As such her views have to be represented in prportion to their relevance.Slatersteven (talk) 18:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Come Slater, this isn't rocket science. Undue applies to any aspect of the subject of the article. Not an aspect of some source about the subject. If you think other critics opinions are being left out, then cite them here. Fell Gleamingtalk 18:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slatersteven: Well, I took a look at the Monbiot article and the only thing it says about this blog is: "this source is highly partisan and untrustworthy". That's it. I'm not sure how you can expand that. But there might be room for expansion with the other two articles. Can you please make some suggestions? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Bit Iffy about the Monbiot source, its really about someone else and its a prety throw away line. this might also be left out I think.Slatersteven (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see the NYTimes material in the article anymore. So, is it ok to remove the UNDUE tag? Cla68 (talk) 10:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I'm still not sure about Mr Monbiot but he at least he is writeing aboiut how the site is used, (and appears to ahve never even partialy backtracked on his view).Slatersteven (talk) 11:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see the NYTimes material in the article anymore. So, is it ok to remove the UNDUE tag? Cla68 (talk) 10:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Bit Iffy about the Monbiot source, its really about someone else and its a prety throw away line. this might also be left out I think.Slatersteven (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Monbiot
Questions are raised about the Monbiot quote. As was pointed out the Monbiot article's mention of WUWT was a glancing blow in an article that is not about the blog. Also if you will search this page for Monbiot, you will see a previous discussion of Monbiot's possible retraction of this bit -- apparently Monbiot's statement was based on a factual bit of info posted on WUWT that Monbiot said was wrong. He later corrected himself and acknowledged that it was he, Monbiot, who was wrong. That kind of takes the wind out of the sails of Monbiot's criticism of WUWT - the correction I believe is at the very top of his article. Anyway, I'll leave it to others to decide what this means in terms of this article, but wanted to bring that to everyone's attention. Sorry for not linking the section where prior discussion took place -- I'm editing from my phone and kind of limited. Minor4th 13:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think there is a case for its removal then..Slatersteven (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Monbiot article is here: [25]. The main subject of the article is Christopher Booker, and the whole of the final para reads:
Instead he [Booker] more or less cut and pasted his claims from the Watts Up With That blog, without checking them first. He does this again and again: in most weeks his column contains a claim first published on Watts Up With That, which falls apart on the briefest examination. He must know that this source is highly partisan and untrustworthy, but he uses it as if it is the only known repository of scientific knowledge about the state of the planet. Isn't it time the editor of the Sunday Telegraph took him aside for a quiet word?
- The retraction at the top is about a single calculation where Monbiot gets two different average ice extents muddled (1979-2000 and 1979-2009). Because of the sentence 'He does this again and again: in most weeks his column contains a claim first published on Watts Up With That, which falls apart on the briefest examination' it is clear that his opinion of WUWT is not based on a single calculation, so the update at the top of Monbiot's article about a single mis-calculation does not count as a retraction of his overall opinion of WUWT. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 13:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Why do I bother?
[26] this edit by AQFK is factually incorrect. And if I take off my rose tinted glasses appears to be a direct retaliation to my own edit. Polargeo (talk) 14:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, maybe I misunderstood the discussion. I've self-reverted. Can you explain how it's factually incorrect? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- How can you say someone stated something later when you are referencing the same article? Polargeo (talk) 14:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- The section I quoted says "5.12pm update". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- And you think that wikipedia should have a running commentary at that scale then? Please look at the whole article and the context of the article and think about it. Polargeo (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- As with Ms Heffernan above if some one goes on to partialy or fully retract or caveat an articel we have to mention that. Or we leave it out.Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)]
- No we don't have to mention it because wikipedia is not the news. We just have to show the current understanding and any arguments along the way are only important if they have historical significance to the subject. We don't have to and should not report every journalistic missunderstanding unless significant in that it has significant coverage in reliable sources. Polargeo (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- As with Ms Heffernan above if some one goes on to partialy or fully retract or caveat an articel we have to mention that. Or we leave it out.Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)]
- And you think that wikipedia should have a running commentary at that scale then? Please look at the whole article and the context of the article and think about it. Polargeo (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- The section I quoted says "5.12pm update". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- How can you say someone stated something later when you are referencing the same article? Polargeo (talk) 14:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
STOP
FellGleaming is trying to edit war in the additions of an IP against a consensus that exists on this article. Please stop right now, including editors who are reverting these edits. Polargeo (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- We've gone over this many times. There is no consensus to remove the NYT material, and editors who persist in removing it against consensus are indeed edit warring. Fell Gleamingtalk 15:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- So now the article is protected please reach consensus rather than edit warring dubious additions into the article along with the IP 99.144.248.213. Polargeo (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Comment – a number of editors seem to be conflating "regret" with "retract". They aren't the same thing. The evidence appears persuasive that Ms. Heffernan regrets her original recommendation, but I've seen no evidence presented that she retracts her original recommendation. Her statement of regret qualifies her original recommendation, and substantially enough that it should be mentioned (assuming the Tweet qualifies as RS, and I think it does). It isn't even clear to me that a retracted statement means that neither the original nor the retraction deserve mention, but that isn't at issue here. What we have is a recommendation and a subsequent qualification. As a thought experiment, if you think an expression of regret means that the original incident can be ignored, try going to the Tiger Woods article and removing the section about his recent infidelities, on the basis that there is a RS where he expresses regret.--SPhilbrickT 19:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- So now the article is protected please reach consensus rather than edit warring dubious additions into the article along with the IP 99.144.248.213. Polargeo (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- ^ Jeet Heer (19 February 2010). "Climategate's guerrilla warriors: pesky foes or careful watchdogs?". The Globe and Mail. Behind paywall as of 3/21/10, part available at http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=5205
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Heffernan_2010-08-01_NYT
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Virginia Heffernan makes the comment here and refers to it via her confirmed Twitter account