CLAIM: Fluoride Alert Network (FAN) embodies the controversy and banning it is form of censorship. COUNTERCLAIM: FAN is a mom-and-pop operation |
TenOfAllTrades (talk | contribs) →CLAIM: Fluoride Alert Network (FAN) embodies the controversy and banning it is form of censorship. COUNTERCLAIM: FAN is a mom-and-pop operation: no need for duelling headers. Keep cool, everyone. |
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Skeptical, the answer to all your repeated questions ''Why isn't so-and-so mentioned?'' Is: Per [[WP:UNDUE]]. This is policy. Please familiarize yourself with it. <code>[[User:Zad68|<span style="color:#D2691E">'''Zad'''</span>]][[User_Talk:Zad68|<span style="color:#206060">''68''</span>]]</code> 05:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC) |
Skeptical, the answer to all your repeated questions ''Why isn't so-and-so mentioned?'' Is: Per [[WP:UNDUE]]. This is policy. Please familiarize yourself with it. <code>[[User:Zad68|<span style="color:#D2691E">'''Zad'''</span>]][[User_Talk:Zad68|<span style="color:#206060">''68''</span>]]</code> 05:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC) |
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== Fluoride Alert Network (FAN) embodies the controversy and banning it is form of censorship. == |
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Shame on Wikipedia for being taken over by the thought control police! {{unsigned|Jfb102455}} |
Shame on Wikipedia for being taken over by the thought control police! {{unsigned|Jfb102455}} |
Revision as of 19:12, 21 April 2013
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Claim in text does not reflect claim made by the source.
In the section of efficacy of water fluoridation. "Although fluoridation may still be a relevant public health measure among the poor and disadvantaged, it may be unnecessary for preventing tooth decay, particularly in industrialized countries where tooth decay is rare." The source does not claim that tooth decay is rare in those countries, but merely that water fluoridation may be unnecessary due to fluoridation from other sources, such as toothpaste and in foods. Promethean 238 (talk) 06:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
You could add more statements against water fluoridation:
Closing per WP:SOAP, the talk page is for discussing changes to the article
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— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 23:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I did, but I see that you've deleted it all in its entirety. Clever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 02:52, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I do not know what copyright violation your are referring to. I was given permission to quote portions of online article from book "Comparative Toxicity of Fluorine Compounds" page 791, regarding "dental fluorosis... http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50295a026 Here is permission to quote portions of this article. https://s100.copyright.com/AppDispatchServlet You can get permission also (its free). PERMISSION/LICENSE IS GRANTED FOR YOUR ORDER AT NO CHARGE This type of permission/license, instead of the standard Terms & Conditions, is sent to you because no fee is being charged for your order. Please note the following: Permission is granted for your request in both print and electronic formats, and translations. If figures and/or tables were requested, they may be adapted or used in part. Please print this page for your records and send a copy of it to your publisher/graduate school. Appropriate credit for the requested material should be given as follows: "Reprinted (adapted) with permission from (COMPLETE REFERENCE CITATION). Copyright (YEAR) American Chemical Society." Insert appropriate information in place of the capitalized words. One-time permission is granted only for the use specified in your request. No additional uses are granted (such as derivative works or other editions). For any other uses, please submit a new request. In online article from book "Comparative Toxicity of Fluorine Compounds" page 791, regarding "dental fluorosis, it states: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50295a026 "Mottled teeth are not only disfiguring in appearance but are so defective in structure and strength that they often have to be replaced by false teeth at an early age." In article from book "Comparative Toxicity of Fluorine Compounds" (online) page 791. The footnote also states: "Unpublished data at hand now indicate that a concentration of fluorine in water of as little as 1 p.p.m. as determined by the Willard or Foster methods of analysis as sufficient to cause mottled enamel of human teeth. A concentration of 2 p.p.m. is now found to be associated with mottled enamel of the more severe type." This information was available in 1932. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50295a026 If you'd rather not mention this, its fine with me. I don't care. I was simply trying to be helpful with your Wikipedia article. There was nothing else mentioned that was any kind of copyright violation either. Do as you wish. Its your article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 23:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9165930 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15107774 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8169995 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21255877 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9161076 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12749628 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3059145 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7679201 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19812419 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11512573 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16596294 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9002384 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18695947 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17469507 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21755305 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20658207 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9288731 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11233755 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19284184 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9663076 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6846062 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21976813 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7425768 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169868 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10901407 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3605090 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 00:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be of the mindset that the body only considers/counts the amount of fluoride contained in water and discounts fluoride ingested/absorbed from all other sources. Fluoride bio-accumulates in the body from ALL sources regardless of the amount maintained in tap water. Its even used as pesticides on the foods we eat in much higher amounts than maintained in tap water. All the previous studies are essentially flawed due to this type of fallacy. Furthermore, you can't determine the amount of fluoride in the body by counting cavities unless your intention is to be unscientific or deceptive. No one really knows how much fluoride anyone is ingesting as no lab work is being done on the population. It would actually be wise for pro-fluoridationists to heed the warning of the World Health Organisation: "Dental and public health administrators should be aware of the TOTAL fluoride exposure in the population before introducing any additional fluoride programme for caries prevention." (Fluorides and Oral Health, WHO, 1994). You can use my statement above as an arguement against water fluoridation. Its nothing more than common sense. Whether you want to use any of the information provided above is up to you. I don't have the time to rewrite your Wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 03:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Forced medication via tap water that may benefit one body system (i.e. teeth) at the expense of other body systems (i.e. thyroid gland, brain) isn't logical. Confounding many of these epidemiological studies is the fact that artificially added inorganic fluoride is much more damaging to living tissue than organic, naturally occurring "calcium fluoride". And when measuring only the absolute levels of the fluoride anion, studies wind up comparing apples to oranges. The LD50 toxicity levels of chemical compounds is what it takes to kill 50% of the population. Lets compare current water fluoridation chemicals to naturally occurring "calcium fluoride". LD50 of Calcium Fluoride = 3,750 mg/kg; LD50 of Sodium Fluoride = 52 mg/kg; LD50 of Hexafluorosilicic acid = 70 mg/kg It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see we have a problem here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Who's claiming people aren't sick? "Fluoride was used as a drug to treat hyperthyroidism because it reduces thyroid activity quite effectively. This is due to the ability of fluoride to mimic the action of thyrotropin (TSH). Excess fluoride correlates with the other thyroid-related issues such as iodine deficiency. Fluorine and iodine, both being members of the halogen group of atoms, have an antagonistic relationship. When there is excess of fluoride in the body it can interfere with the function of the thyroid gland. Thus, fluoride has been linked to thyroid problems." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169868/ The prior therapeutic use of F to reduce thyroid hormone levels in cases of thyrotoxicosis is well documented (Goldemberg, (1926, 1930, 1932); May (1935, 1937); Orlowski (1932) and Galletti and G. Joyet, (1958)). "A total of $4.3 billion was spent on treatment for thyroid disease among adult women in 2008". http://meps.ahrq.gov/mepsweb/data_files/publications/st348/stat348.pdf
Just stick with the facts. No one is paranoid unless it is you. Who's claiming fluoride is killing everyone? Not yet anyway. But it isn't contributing to overall health by any stretch of the imagination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 05:29, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Here's an interesting paper on PubMed.gov: "Effects of the fluoride on the central nervous system" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21255877 Their conclusion was, "The prolonged ingestion of F may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system. Therefore, it is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain F, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of F." PMID: 21255877 But I'm sure the writers here would just consider this paranoia, bias, anti-fluoridation propaganda, or whatever. Couldn't be linked to Autism or any other disease in the USA they haven't found a cause for yet. Here's another paper on PubMed.gov: "A possible central mechanism in AUTISM spectrum disorders" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19284184 "...a number of environmental neurotoxins, such as FLUORIDE, lead, cadmium, and aluminum, can result in these pathological and biochemical changes." PMID: 19284184 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 06:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
You should point out in your article that water fluoridation is so effective that only 40% of the preschoolers in Singapore suffer from SEVERE dental decay. Singapore has been 100% fluoridated since 1956. That is an excellent success rate. http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/content/40-spore-preschoolers-suffer-severe-tooth-decay You could also compare Singapore's dental caries rate of 40% with the 4.6% dental caries rate of Ibadan, Nigeria. See PubMed.gov: "The fluoride content of drinking water and caries experience in 15-19 year old school children in Ibadan, Nigeria" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18756850 "955 students aged 15-19 years randomly selected from eleven secondary schools in Ibadan metropolis were examined for dental caries. The fluoride level of the different water sources was between 0.02 and 0.03 ppm. [only] Forty-four (4.6%) of the children had dental caries. In conclusion, both the fluoride level and caries prevalence were low." PMID: 18756850 But if you are severely biased, you won't be able to mention this on Wikipedia due to your severe bias. Another PubMed paper is "New evidence on fluoridation" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9161076 "A review of recent scientific literature reveals a consistent pattern of evidence-- hip fractures, skeletal fluorosis, the effect of fluoride on bone structure, fluoride levels in bones and osteosarcomas-- pointing to the existence of causal mechanisms by which fluoride damages bones. In addition, there is evidence, accepted by some eminent dental researchers... that there is negligible benefit from ingesting fluoride..." PMID: 9161076 It seems there is plenty of information that is available on water fluoridation that is simply being ignored on this Wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 07:16, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
This is a joke. There is not one atom of the fluoride controversy in this article. The chemicals used in water fluoridation (hexafluorosilicic acid) are the waist products of the phosphors industry. Water fluoridation is is a toxic waist disposal program started and promoted by the chemical industry. That is the controversy. How do you wake up Wikipedia! The dentist obviously have control of this page and will not allow the truth out. If the dentists any integrity they should look at the arguments against fluoridation clearly and defeat their science on each point. But no. The CDC and the National Science Foundation have asked for a review of water fluoridation policies because the found significant reason to question the science. So the EPA went back and said they would only look at one study in 1940 (cherry picking studies is the biggest warning sign of scientist with an agenda) to justify their policies. Who ever controls this page has a pro fluoride bias. This page should be controled by someone who is aware of the controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfb102455 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
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Grammatical Error: Edit request on 3 April 2013
The first line of the second paragraph in the "Ethics" section seems grammatically incorrect:
"Water fluoridation was characterized in at least one journal publication as a violation the Nuremberg Code and the Council of Europe's Biomedical Convention of 1999."
I believe it should be:
"Water fluoridation was characterized in at least one journal publication as a violation of the Nuremberg Code and the Council of Europe's Biomedical Convention of 1999."
or
"Water fluoridation was characterized in at least one journal publication as violating the Nuremberg Code and the Council of Europe's Biomedical Convention of 1999."
Edward.mims (talk) 15:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- Done. Minor edit only. —KuyaBriBriTalk 22:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Anchoring reference is pretty flimsy
The first and one of the most heavily cited references in this article is to Cross DW, Carton RJ (2003). "Fluoridation: a violation of medical ethics and human rights". Int. J. Occup. Environ. Health 9 (1): 24–9. PMID 12749628. This journal is a bottom-feeder. Its impact factor is 1.03 according to the journal site (http://maneypublishing.com/index.php/journals/oeh/). The editorial board is not represented by any top institution, except the editor in chief, who is an assoc prof of medicine at Brown U. I have differences with aspects of the antifluoridation movement, but I would bet that the more high end members of that movement would aspire to a more renown anchor article source than this one. I also wonder if this ref could not be deleted or subordinated (placed deeper in the article with qualifiers like "claimed ..."). --Smokefoot (talk) 00:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Updated dental health on European countries
Is there updated information on those European countries that have since banned or removed fluoride from their drinking water? It would be interesting to see if tooth decay has been on the rise. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:02, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
What about Harold Hodge?
I see no mention of Harold Hodge. Wasn't he part of the water fluoridation controversy? Not worthy of mention? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 01:35, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Source. Harold_Hodge. "Harold Carpenter Hodge (1904 – 1990) was a well-known toxicologist who published close to 300 papers and 5 books. He was the first president of the Society of Toxicology in 1960. He received a BS from Illinois Wesleyan University and a PhD in 1930 from the State University of Iowa, publishing his first paper in 1927. He received a number of honors and awards during his career, and he was president of the International Association for Dental Research in 1947, president of the American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics (1966-1967), president of the Association of Medical School Pharmacologists (1968-1970).[1]"
I just think he should be mentioned in an article such as this. I really don't care what is said or how it is worded.99.61.178.14 (talk) 23:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Alright, now we're getting somewhere. (And thank you for signing!!) Couple things: First, the content you're proposing is just a bio of Hodge and makes no mention of fluoridation. This article is "Water fluoridation controversy" and the content you're proposing does nothing to tie Hodge into the topic of this article. Second, as incredible as it may sound, you cannot use a Wikipedia article as a source for something in another Wikipedia article, because Wikipedia doesn't consider itself a reliable source - see WP:CIRCULAR. Given that, I looked at the Harold Hodge article, and the relevant content there is sourced to the book The Fluoride Deception by Bryson. This book wouldn't appear to be a good, neutral source on the topic. It received absolutely no attention in PubMed, and in fact Harold Hodge receives no mention in PubMed at all. Can you bring a good-quality reliable source that places Hodge in the context of the history of the water fluoridation controversy?
Zad68
14:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Why are you insisting that Harold Hodge have work on PubMed to be mentioned in this article? Just curious. Are you trying to reference his peer-reviewed work? I don't believe he published any regarding fluoride. But he did play a part in fluoridation. There are people and organizations mentioned in this article that do not have peer-reviewed studies on PubMed. Are you insisting that everyone (or organization) mentioned in this article to have a peer-reviewed study on PubMed? SkepticalMinds (talk) 20:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- No... maybe you didn't realize (not everyone does) but PubMed contains a lot more than just scientific study results, it also has articles about history, society, ethics, law, politics, etc. if it relates at all to medicine or public health. (PubMed currently indexes over 22 million items, that's quite a lot.) I just did a quick search there for articles covering the history of water fluoridation, and I pulled up 150+ results. I found three separate articles covering the history of fluoridation that mention Frederick McKay by name, and two that mention H. Trendley Dean name. I found zero that mention Hodge. Because we can see the PubMed does include many articles that cover the history of fluoridation and mention important figures by name, the fact that Hodge is never mentioned does argue against mentioning him here by name.
Zad68
20:21, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
PubMed isn't the only source of information for an article like this. Water fluoridation is still controversial in the world. I've brought up quite a bit of information found on PubMed previously but you refused to give any of them any weight for one reason, or another. Is your POV influencing your actions?SkepticalMinds (talk) 20:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
@Zad - Did you really look for Harold Hodge on PubMed? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7102580 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6494187 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6221038 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7315769 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/968908
He has work on PubMed.SkepticalMinds (talk) 22:26, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Phyllis Mullenix is also involved in the water fluoridation controversy but there is no mention of her either in this article. She's mentioned on PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16350475 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7760776SkepticalMinds (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
@Zad - the point should be that this article remain neutral, regardless of the source. Do you really believe the ADA and CDC are neutral? Do you believe those opposed to fluoridation are neutral? Neither are neutral. Just present both sides as neutrally as possible. Leave the opinions up to the reader. Are you trying to promote water fluoridation?SkepticalMinds (talk) 22:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Zad's first objection remains: the content you're proposing is just a bio of Hodge and makes no mention of fluoridation. This article is "Water fluoridation controversy" and the content you're proposing does nothing to tie Hodge into the topic of this article. See also WP:COATRACK#The_Flea. TippyGoomba (talk) 00:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
A secondary source includes "Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA Standards (2006), page 80. "Hodge and Smith (1965) summarized a number of studies of skeletal fluorosis, including two that indicated affected individuals in the United States with water supplies containing fluoride at 4.8 or 8 mg/L."
Phyllis Mullenix is mentioned in the same book. It's a book about water fluoridation SkepticalMinds (talk) 01:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- That would fall under WP:SYNTH or WP:WEIGHT. Are you really suggesting to insert a random bio with no context? TippyGoomba (talk) 19:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I think it would be disrespectful to not mention Hodge. See Oxford Journals, Toxicological Sciences, Harold Carpenter Hodge (1904–1990). "Appointed initially in biochemistry, Hodge pursued dental research including the toxicity of fluoride, as there was a huge stigma against using fluoride for the public health. (It was, after all, a rat poison.) "... he was fascinated by teeth and fluoride and thereby became involved in early research toward the prevention of dental caries. He spawned a great interest in the university in dental research that continues today." SkepticalMinds (talk) 20:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- He's dead, so I don't think he'll mind. We're safe to disrespect him by not adding his bio to the teeth article. TippyGoomba (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't Edward Bernays be mentioned in an article such as this?
See Edward_Bernays. "Bernays helped the Aluminum Company of America (Alcoa) and other special interest groups to convince the American public that water fluoridation was safe and beneficial to human health. This was achieved by using the American Dental Association in a highly successful media campaign. [24]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.61.178.14 (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Response is pretty much the same as for Hodge. You can't use the Wikipedia article as a source, the source that is cited in the article isn't reliable, you need to bring a good, reliable source that places Bernays in the historical context of the topic of this article.
Zad68
14:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
How are you defining "reliable source"? Does it have anything to do with your specific point of view, or bias? The article should remain neutral, especially considering the controversy involved.SkepticalMinds (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- You've been directed to WP:MEDRS several times now. TippyGoomba (talk) 00:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I can't say that I interprete WP:MEDRS the same way you do. Regarding "Reliable Sources" it says "The fact that a statement is published in a refereed journal does not make it true. Experiments and other studies have fallen victim to deliberate fraud. (See: Retracted article on neurotoxicity of ecstasy, and Schön affair.)" "Make readers aware of any uncertainty or controversy. A well-referenced article will point to specific journal articles or specific theories proposed by specific researchers." It also says, "When reliable sources disagree, present what the various sources say, give each side its due weight, and maintain a neutral point of view."SkepticalMinds (talk) 01:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- The first quote does not have anything to do with your source. It is not refereed scholarship. Even if it was, are you using that quote to suggest that your source is deliberate fraud?
- The last quote contains the text give each side its due weight, which we are doing as far as I can tell. Do you have some peer reviewed scholarship to suggest otherwise? TippyGoomba (talk) 02:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
See Public Relations Wiki - Edward Bernays.
"Bernays' clients included President Calvin Coolidge, Procter & Gamble, CBS, the United Fruit Company, the American Tobacco Company, General Electric, Dodge Motors, and the fluoridationists of the Public Health Service. Beyond his contributions to these famous and powerful clients,"
See Innovation in Cambridge - Public Relations. "Additionally Bernays is credited with making bacon and eggs the All-American breakfast, promoting Russian ballet, selling the idea of fluoride in drinking water to be healthy, promoting disposable paper cups as more sanitary than reusable cups,"
Bernays' role in water fluoridation seems to be known in most places but isn't known in this article because it is intentionally being omitted. SkepticalMinds (talk) 04:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing that falls under WP:MEDRS, got anything else or can we close this? TippyGoomba (talk) 08:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
The consensus is that Edward Bernays played a role in the water fluoridation program but you want to avoid mentioning it in this article? Is this what you are saying? SkepticalMinds (talk) 18:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
"Facts You Should Know About Fluoridation", Health Research Books. SkepticalMinds (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm saying you haven't given us sources for me to evaluate the question. TippyGoomba (talk) 18:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps the editors of this article should read "The Engineering of Consent" by E.L. Bernays and Howard Walden Cutler at the library BEFORE writing an article regarding the controversy of fluoridation? SkepticalMinds (talk) 18:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a change to the article? TippyGoomba (talk) 19:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I am. I am suggesting Edward Bernays be mentioned in this article. I don't care what is said or how it is worded. But he did play a part. SkepticalMinds (talk) 20:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- The suggestion needs to be in the from "let's add X to section Y, here are my sources". TippyGoomba (talk) 20:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Withdrawn: Proposed new article on "conspiracy theories for water fluoridation," see List_of_conspiracy_theories#Water_fluoridation
The proposed article could include the Nazi plans for fluoridation, pineal gland interactions, various industries convincing the governments to flouridate water as a means of disposing wastes, fluoridation to make citizens "docile". With such an article at least editors and readers would have a place to go to. Wikipedia already has 9/11 conspiracy theories.--Smokefoot (talk) 00:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- You think there's enough there to fill out a whole article? We've already got List_of_conspiracy_theories#Water_fluoridation.
Zad68
04:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
The "conspiracy theories" in this article are a waste of space. SkepticalMinds (talk) 20:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- Should we have a section on "conspiracy theories" in the present article? They form part of the controversy. Some parties might be angered that their views are considered to be conspiracy theories, which would be unfortunate. In other words, there are two levels of objection to fluoridation, underpinning the controversy:
- some that find data supporting efficacy to be questionable. And there are some that dont like the idea of government doctoring their drinking water - those are opinions.
- Then there is a whole separate group of objections, which are premised on theories that there is some conspiracy by governments and/or companies to impose fluoridation which these organization know to be unhealthy. The latter would be a conspiracy theory.
- Should we have a section on "conspiracy theories" in the present article? They form part of the controversy. Some parties might be angered that their views are considered to be conspiracy theories, which would be unfortunate. In other words, there are two levels of objection to fluoridation, underpinning the controversy:
@Smokefoot - Someone could do a separate short article on water fluoridation "conspiracy theories". Then in the "See Also" section of this article could be a link to that article. I've seen shorter articles on Wikipedia than what would be in a water fluoridation "conspiracy theories" article.SkepticalMinds (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Why don't objectors to this article register?
Strange that those that find this and related articles objectionable are almost always unregistered. Why are these editors so disinclined to describe themselves? What is behind this trend - paranoia? Disinterest in anything but this single topic? Anti-collegiality? ----Smokefoot (talk) 00:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
This isn't a forum.SkepticalMinds (talk) 03:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- burn!. TippyGoomba (talk) 04:03, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Why isn't there any mention in this article regarding Dr. David Kennedy?
hatted per WP:NOTFORUM, no change is being suggested
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I see Dr. Hardy Limeback is mentioned but not Dr. David Kennedy? Dr. David Kennedy is also opposed to water fluoridation. He is involved in the controversy. SkepticalMinds (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I need to confirm if its notable before doing content."Dr. David Kennedy discusses the toxicity and ineffectiveness of fluorid:ion IAOMT 2009" . SkepticalMinds (talk) 22:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC) |
Skeptical, the answer to all your repeated questions Why isn't so-and-so mentioned? Is: Per WP:UNDUE. This is policy. Please familiarize yourself with it. Zad68
05:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Fluoride Alert Network (FAN) embodies the controversy and banning it is form of censorship.
Shame on Wikipedia for being taken over by the thought control police! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfb102455 (talk • contribs)
- FluorideAlert was added to the spam blacklist in 2010, because links to it were being repeatedly spammed by an aggressive sockpuppeteer: [1]. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:31, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- About FAN: it is literally a Mom and Pop organization, being run by a undistinguished (largely unpublished) and undecorated (zero national awards) professor retired from a tiny college together with his son and his wife. Contrast those characteristics with groups that are guided, not by family, but by decorated professors and professionals from major organizations. Even FANs main journal is not recognized by PubMed. --Smokefoot (talk) 19:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)