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::I'm going to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and assume the above comment was not meant to be sarcastic. Such formatting is a step in the right direction, though I feel it does not need to be bulleted. As Krator points out, a full roster is not necessary for a video game article to be comprehensive. Even if the characters are real-life people, full character lists, weapon lists, stage lists, and the like offer very little to an encyclopedic video game article. And while I can't deny that there are people that would like to know such information, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to emulate [[GameFAQs]]. ([[User:Guyinblack25|Guyinblack25]] <sup>[[User talk:Guyinblack25|talk]]</sup> 16:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)) |
::I'm going to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and assume the above comment was not meant to be sarcastic. Such formatting is a step in the right direction, though I feel it does not need to be bulleted. As Krator points out, a full roster is not necessary for a video game article to be comprehensive. Even if the characters are real-life people, full character lists, weapon lists, stage lists, and the like offer very little to an encyclopedic video game article. And while I can't deny that there are people that would like to know such information, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to emulate [[GameFAQs]]. ([[User:Guyinblack25|Guyinblack25]] <sup>[[User talk:Guyinblack25|talk]]</sup> 16:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)) |
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Kaizer13, that indeed is a step in the right direction. When the description would amount to "just another popular and good wrestler", consider not including such a character in the list. Be minimal in inclusion standards. [[User:Krator]] ([[User talk:Krator|t]] [[Special:Contributions/Krator|c]]) 18:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC) |
Kaizer13, that indeed is a step in the right direction. When the description would amount to "just another popular and good wrestler", consider not including such a character in the list. Be minimal in inclusion standards. [[User:Krator]] ([[User talk:Krator|t]] [[Special:Contributions/Krator|c]]) 18:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC) |
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::Krator, you said lists do not allow for any discussion of the wrestlers. My question is, why is there a need to discuss the biography of any WWE roster member in this article? This article is not about the WWE wrestlers themselves, it is about a video game. While most games with playable characters have their own storyline in the game, this one does not. If people need to know who each wrestler is, they would not come to this article for that information. It is inherently given that anyone in this game is a professional wrestler. |
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::The way I see this roster is in the same light that I see the roster of the [[New_York_Giants#Current_roster|New York Giants]] or any other sports roster and should be trated as such. |
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:: I think one suggestion that might be a decent comprimise is to make a list of the roster on a separate page and put a link to it under the subheader for roster. In that paragraph, state something to the effect of SVR 2008 boasts (insert # of playable superstars) of the WWE's top superstars. Then go into how each wrestler was programmed with many of their unique move sets, trademark entrances etc. This way the article looks less cluttered but the information is still available within wikipedia. I don't think removing the information is the right thing to do, but moving it might be okay.[[User:Angrymansr|Angrymansr]] ([[User talk:Angrymansr|talk]]) 21:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Roster - list or prose?
- The following is a closed discussion of the Listing or prosing. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
No Result, Although there is a majority of approval of listing, there is still many comments of opposition. There is no real consensus reached here.--TrUCo9311 21:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Alright, time to throw this down again since Rob keeps insisting on keeping it prose, and is now on the verge of an edit war. By my count, it was 6-1 for a roster list back in December. Let's decide this ONCE AND FOR ALL!
This is the list we are proposing
- List - to have consistency with the other titles, it should be this way. ArcAngel (talk) 21:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- List - Wikipedia is to present articles neatly, and when a roster is listed in prose, that is messy and the way it reads is very confusing. In every paragraph there is mention that one or more superstars are not included in the DS version, now with the list yoou can note what brand each wrestler is in the game, you can tell whether they are on all the systems or if they are exceptions.TrUCo9311 21:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Prose. Neater and there is no requirement wrestling games have to be a list. Just because they have been that way for a long time, doesn't mean things can't change. In my view, people are just refusing to accept change here. If you want to see your perfect list, go to a video game site. RobJ1981 (talk) 14:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- List - I don't care either way since I got the game, but judging by the, ah, overall intelligence and patience level of most Wikipedia users, I should think a list would be better, compared to trying to decipher who's in the roster from a block of text. There are a few good points about this actually being an encyclopedia and as such, with there being no lists in an actual encyclopedia, but I think information should be more easily accessible. Some users have shown extremely stupid behaviour concerning this whole ordeal however. I'm not gonna drop any names, but sometimes you need to look above your own opinions, if you know what I mean. So list it is, my good men. --Kaizer13 (talk) 17:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to point out that WP:CON states "Wikipedia decision making is not based on formal vote counting ('Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy'). This means that polling alone is not considered a means of decision-making, and it is certainly not a binding vote, and you do not need to abide by polls per se."
- I would also like to poise the question, "why is a full roster of characters necessary?" An abridge listing of some of the more notable wrestler and newly added wrestlers would probably convey the same idea. Yes, some people may want to know every wrestler in the game, but that is not really the purpose of an encyclopedic article. Per WP:GAMEGUIDE and WP:DIRECTORY, detailed and excessive information regarding plot and gameplay info is not meant to be on Wikipedia. There are plenty of other games that do not include such lists and are Featured status; see WP:VG/FA for examples. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC))
- People assume that a full roster is needed, because that's how it's always been done. Guyinblack has a point, a full roster does lean towards guide content. A new prose should be written, highlighting just some of the roster. Perhaps a link in the external links for a full roster, so people can see the whole roster if they want to. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- List - Don't forget all of the people in the archive who have asked for it to be a list as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:WWE_SmackDown_vs._Raw_2008/Archive_6. This behavior is childish. Angrymansr (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Though there may be plenty of people here that feel a full roster is what's best the article, the consensus on Wikipedia and the parent WikiProject of this article trump that. The VG Project generally frowns upon long/large lists of playable characters and normally favors prose.
- Regardless, vote counting does not equal a consensus. Most people that wanted a list format in the archive did not cite real reasons as to why the article should contain it. Lists within articles, though can be informative to players of the game, do not provide much, encyclopedic-wise, to the layman. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- If Wikipedia and VG Project frowns on this and it is NOT the community consensus, then why is every video game with multiple playable characters in this genre except for the ones these 2 are messing with, using lists? Please point me to some articles where multiple playable characters are listed in prose instead of a list (that bullet and Rob haven't altered). I searched for many games with multiple playable characters and every single one of them are in list format, not to mention 99% of the WWE_video_games that were lists until these two users have gone back and re-written them into prose: Tekken_1, Tekken_2, Tekken_3, Street_Fighter_II, Street_Fighter_III, Twisted_Metal, Twisted_Metal_2, Super_Smash_Bros._(series), Tony_Hawk's_Pro_Skater, Mortal_Kombat, Mortal_Kombat_II, Mortal_Kombat_III, Rumble_Roses, WCW_video_games
- As far as Wikipedia:VG/FA, most of those games do not have multiple selectable characters, so I don't see how that applies here. The only reason I can see a need for prose is in games where characters contribute to the storyline or have an in-game backstory that can contribute to the article such as in RPG's. Fighting games or games with rosters do not generally fit into that category. Unless we want to create a short blurb for every character in this game like here: Characters_of_Final_Fantasy_VIII. I don't see a point in writing a roster in prose just for the sake of writing it in prose. There is nothing of value to say about the roster in a game, which is why we use lists for these situations. If it added any value to the article at all, I wouldn't care. What do readers have to gain from reading a roster in prose except a headache from trying to figure out who is in it? Angrymansr (talk) 17:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Off the top of my mind, Victorious Boxers: Ippo's Road to Glory. During the initial assessments of it, Krator commented to me a couple times about removing the roster table and switching it out to prose. I'll have to do a bit more thinking for other examples.
- I'd like to point out that the majority of the games you cited as examples are either Start or Stub class. The only one higher than start is the Smash Bros. series article, which honestly, I would not pass GA with the roster it currently has. Does that make them bad examples? Not really, but if you're comparing them to FA's and discounting the Featured VG articles I'd like to point out that maybe there is not a sports type game of Featured quality because it has not tried to emulate previous FA's.
- The purpose of Wikipedia is to produce encyclopedic articles of high quality. Including a complete roster of playable characters does not add much more than stating some notable characters/wrestlers and the addition/subtractions of other notable characters/wrestlers to the game in a concise paragraph of prose.
- Regardless of all that;
- Per WP:GAMEGUIDE - "While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, a Wikipedia article should not read like a how-to style manual of instructions, advice (legal, medical, or otherwise) or suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, game guides, and recipes."
- Per WP:NOT#DIR - "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed."
- A full roster of playable characters falls under these definitions of what Wikipedia is not intended for. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- There is not one bullet in WP:NOT#DIR or WP:GAMEGUIDE that strictly forbids roster lists.
- The sentence you cited for WP:NOT#DIR does not apply here. It would apply to all radio stations currently on the FM Dial in the US, not whose likeness is included in a specific game. If that sentence alone deems this list against policy, then this wouldn't have been a featured article. To be very clear, this is a directory, and this is not.
- To say this list resembles a game guide simply for listing who is in the game is stretching it. That is information you would expect to find in an in encyclopedia article about a video game, though I wouldn't expect to find an article about this video game in any encyclopedia except this one. Angrymansr (talk) 20:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- P.S. Would you mind changing this article in which you are a major contributor to prose? Thanks! This clearly meets WP:NOT#DIR - "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed." Seems a bit hypocritical, if you ask me. Angrymansr (talk) 20:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- (un-indent) While you are correct in that WP:NOT does not explicitly state roster lists should be excluded, the policy is meant to give a general outline of what not to include. It listed "radio stations" as an example. Listing every single excluded example is not the point of the policy, nor is it the duty of Wikipedia to anticipate every possible breach of guideline.
- I don't see how adding such a list would be really improve the overall quality of the article. A full roster or list of characters is something I would expect to find in a print strategy guide/walkthrough or an online FAQ. Because of that, I believe this to fall under WP:NOT#DIR or WP:GAMEGUIDE.
- That said, I would like to ask again, "why is a full roster of characters necessary?" Including a small amount of information on the roster would convey the idea that the game included real life and prominent wrestler stars. We had a similar problem with Kingdom Hearts (series)#Voice cast and the related game articles. We had to trim down the long list of voice actors into prose while still conveying the idea that the games had an all-star voice cast.
- In regard to your last statement. This seems like an attempt to discredit my earlier comments by discrediting my previous work. The page fits Wikipedia's definition of a stand alone list per WP:LIST. If you have a problem with List of Castlevania titles, I suggest you take it up on the appropriate channels like its talk page or FLC, and not on this talk page. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- I already answered your question. "That is information you would expect to find in an in encyclopedia article about a video game." Besides, who would the authority be in deciding who should be included and who should not? It's more thorough, and avoids conflict just including everyone. There are not so many people on the game roster that it detracts from the quality of the article. And if you want to talk about consistency of video game articles, I haven't come across one yet that selectively includes characters. Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel here? Angrymansr (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- So by your logic of "more thorough and avoids conflict", weapons lists, arena lists and so on... should be in the article as well? All of which fall under game guide content. Just because full rosters was what used to be in all articles, doesn't mean it should remain that way forever. This isn't "reinventing the wheel" as you state, this is making the article not violate policies and guidelines. We simply can't avoid conflict by violating policies, just because a select few are against change. An external link for a site that lists the full roster should be the solution here. Wikipedia isn't the place for everything, and that's a big reason why this site has policies and guidelines. If nothing was in place, every article would be flooded with clutter, trivial and just plain useless information. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is no policy that anyone has shown me that the list violates. Plain and simple. Angrymansr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You have been presented with policy, however the only argument you've presented back is that it does not explicitly states "no rosters in video game articles." The policies are meant to be interpreted and applied across a variety of situations. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
additional grammatical edit: (Guyinblack25 talk 00:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC))- You claimed it to be a directory (which this isn't even close to), and a game guide. If by listing the characters who appear in a game is game guide material then pretty much all of the Featured Articles you cited are in violation. I'm fairly certain the spirit of that policy pertains to walkthroughs, faq's and cheats. Why do I feel like I am repeating myself? Angrymansr (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I cited WP:NOT#DIR to simply point out that not every detail of the game needs to be included.
- With regard to the FAs, the various FAs I cited explained information about the characters in a concise manner using prose and citations/references. The were reviewed at WP:FAC as being of high quality and complying with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. So I unfortunately fail to understand what you mean by "If by listing the characters who appear in a game is game guide material then pretty much all of the Featured Articles you cited are in violation." (Guyinblack25 talk 01:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
- You claimed it to be a directory (which this isn't even close to), and a game guide. If by listing the characters who appear in a game is game guide material then pretty much all of the Featured Articles you cited are in violation. I'm fairly certain the spirit of that policy pertains to walkthroughs, faq's and cheats. Why do I feel like I am repeating myself? Angrymansr (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- You have been presented with policy, however the only argument you've presented back is that it does not explicitly states "no rosters in video game articles." The policies are meant to be interpreted and applied across a variety of situations. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
- With regard to "That is information you would expect to find in an in encyclopedia article about a video game." I've also already stated that I, and I believe others as well, have a different opinion about that. We do not believe a full roster for this type of game is necessary or encyclopedic.
- Who is we? 3 people? Give me a break. Angrymansr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- As far as deciding who should be included, use your best judgement. That's what's been done in other articles.
- Regarding consistency; Victorious Boxers: Ippo's Road to Glory is an article that does not list every playable character in the game. Kingdom Hearts II selectively includes Final Fantasy and Disney characters because including every single one cluttered the article. The same thing with the voice actors. Enough was mentioned to convey the idea without going into unnecessary details.
- I agree with RobJ about the external link. That is what they are for, to "provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." (Guyinblack25 talk 22:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- There is no policy that anyone has shown me that the list violates. Plain and simple. Angrymansr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- While I agree that the roster is sort of redundant to include in the article, because like many users said, Wiki is not a Game Guide, in this case the roster should be listed because their are many platform differences. Mayby for the previous SvR's they should be removed but for this one it should remain like this because of the platform differences, and the best way to present this information is in a formal/neat way, and a prose is not the answer. A list and/or table are made to present multiple information in a formal/neat organized way.TrUCo9311 22:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Roster differences can be mentioned, but they don't need to be listed in complete detail to show the games are different. A sentence such as "each console has exclusive characters" or something similar should be all that's needed. Why do we need to show that "this console has these people, but this console doesn't", when a sentence (or sentences) can make it simplier and neater overall? If people want to see which people are in each version, they can go to the external link. There is a platform differences section, add some sentences there. There is no need for a table (or list) just to show every roster difference. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I do agree on that. Then we should just get rid of the roster section entierly, and just mentioned that what you said in a section and that's it. But as I see by this poll, we might have to list it. Unless we all agree to just get rid of it entirely and just add that one or two sentences.TrUCo9311 22:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Per WP:CON, "Wikipedia decision making is not based on formal vote counting ('Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy'). This means that polling alone is not considered a means of decision-making, and it is certainly not a binding vote, and you do not need to abide by polls per se." (Guyinblack25 talk 22:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- This guy and his policies. Do I need to debunk this one too? Angrymansr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- While I appreciate the claim of ownership, I must be honest and say that they are Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- Yeah, let's keep trying to shoehorn them in whether they apply or not. I can cite all kinds of policy and gloss over the facts too, but that would be a waste of everyone's time. The real problem here is the disruptive editing. Two people who decided to hijack an article, at the ire of every other editor who has over and over again cried foul. Since we like guidelines and policies so much! Disruptive editing and Tendetious editing. If this wasn't going on, this article could actually move forward. Angrymansr (talk) 00:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- With all due respect, if you feel we fall under that category, the I suggest you go to WP:RFC or WP:RFM. You can also go to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games since this being a video game article, falls under their umbrella. Their talk page can be found here.
- Now, in regard to the problem you state. It seems to me that addressing the issue with the roster list will solve the edit warring. (Guyinblack25 talk 01:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
- Yeah, let's keep trying to shoehorn them in whether they apply or not. I can cite all kinds of policy and gloss over the facts too, but that would be a waste of everyone's time. The real problem here is the disruptive editing. Two people who decided to hijack an article, at the ire of every other editor who has over and over again cried foul. Since we like guidelines and policies so much! Disruptive editing and Tendetious editing. If this wasn't going on, this article could actually move forward. Angrymansr (talk) 00:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- While I appreciate the claim of ownership, I must be honest and say that they are Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- This guy and his policies. Do I need to debunk this one too? Angrymansr (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Per WP:CON, "Wikipedia decision making is not based on formal vote counting ('Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy'). This means that polling alone is not considered a means of decision-making, and it is certainly not a binding vote, and you do not need to abide by polls per se." (Guyinblack25 talk 22:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
- Ok this is getting out of hand, if you continue to edit war like this, an admin may be notified and you may be warned and/or blocked. So as I see this issue we should just get rid of the roster section to avoid sounding like a game guide, and we should just mention that with each system comes a different set of superstars/or many superstars are not available on (blah blah) etc.--TrUCo9311 01:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- By removing the entire deal, you sort of defeat the entire purpose of this article, or at least parts of it. Nothing else is stated in the article that cannot be found out by checking out the thing in question for yourself, which in my estimation is the biggest problem on Wikipedia - you remove all the parts (trivia, unsourced stuff and yes, rosters) that actually benefit a reader that has the object in question. I'd prefer we reach a consensus rather than removal. --Kaizer13 (talk) 01:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think there may be a misunderstanding. We don't want to completely remove the roster, information about the characters of the game is necessary for the article to be comprehensive. What we hope to accomplish is to integrate it into prose to comply with the guidelines Wikipedia and the VG Project. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
- By removing the entire deal, you sort of defeat the entire purpose of this article, or at least parts of it. Nothing else is stated in the article that cannot be found out by checking out the thing in question for yourself, which in my estimation is the biggest problem on Wikipedia - you remove all the parts (trivia, unsourced stuff and yes, rosters) that actually benefit a reader that has the object in question. I'd prefer we reach a consensus rather than removal. --Kaizer13 (talk) 01:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- So by your logic of "more thorough and avoids conflict", weapons lists, arena lists and so on... should be in the article as well? All of which fall under game guide content. Just because full rosters was what used to be in all articles, doesn't mean it should remain that way forever. This isn't "reinventing the wheel" as you state, this is making the article not violate policies and guidelines. We simply can't avoid conflict by violating policies, just because a select few are against change. An external link for a site that lists the full roster should be the solution here. Wikipedia isn't the place for everything, and that's a big reason why this site has policies and guidelines. If nothing was in place, every article would be flooded with clutter, trivial and just plain useless information. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- List - it's the best way to present this information. --Maestro25 (talk) 20:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- List - it's easier to understand and it has always been this way because it is BETTER. The guy who said something like "We just don't want to change it because we don't like change" or whatever. What is the point of changing it anyway? Lists are easier then stupid ass prose. And it looks like more people want a list so why are people still changing it to prose, just leave it you tools. Welshy —Preceding comment was added at 07:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Arbitrary section break
- So, Kaizer is basically telling everyone to ignore policies, just so a consensus can happen? That's what it sounds like to me. Consensus to violate a policy isn't going to work, so why are you insisting that this poll determines how the article looks? Wikipedia isn't an anarchy, with no guidelines. RobJ1981 (talk) 05:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, what I'm basically trying to say is that your guidelines are very corkheaded. Why haven't you been blocked yet anyway? --Kaizer13 (talk) 06:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Guidelines aren't going to be ignored just because you hate or don't agree with them. So either get over it, or just learn to follow them. I havent done anything to be blocked, and that's not even relevant with this current discussion. Stop being uncivil. RobJ1981 (talk) 06:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Look, it's obvious that you guys want what you think is best for the article. We all do. But we can't ignore the Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. We're playing in their playground, so we play by their rules. (Guyinblack25 talk 13:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
- Guidelines aren't going to be ignored just because you hate or don't agree with them. So either get over it, or just learn to follow them. I havent done anything to be blocked, and that's not even relevant with this current discussion. Stop being uncivil. RobJ1981 (talk) 06:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
soundtrack
wheres the soundtrack? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.226.24.105 (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I know, it was removed due to Wikipedia wanting to be a site of limited knowledge rather than the whole shebang. Or due to the fact that it is not a gameguide. You'd get better results by looking up another site or checking the history for the page, as it used to be included. Beats me which edit it was removed in though. --Kaizer13 (talk) 16:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Lists
Just for those who have the misconception that lists are unencyclopedic.
WP:LIST
Lists are commonly used to organize information in Wikipedia articles. Lists may be found within the body of a prosaic article, or as a stand-alone article.
Listed Items
Lists, whether they are embedded lists or stand-alone lists, are encyclopedic content as are paragraphs and articles, and they are equally subject to Wikipedia's content policies such as Verifiability, No original research, Neutral point of view, and others.
Types of lists
A list can stand alone as a self contained page, or it can be embedded in an article Angrymansr (talk) 00:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- No one ever said all lists were bad, so don't assume things. Just because lists are allowed, doesn't instantly make all forms of lists perfectly fine for every Wikipedia article. RobJ1981 (talk) 05:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- As RobJ stated, lists are a part of Wikipedia, but they too have their own guidelines and limitations. I would also like to point out that Wikipedia:LIST#Listed items tells editors to also see WP:NOT#DIR. This is because not all lists of information are encyclopedic and therefore not suitable for Wikipedia, which is what we've been saying from the start. (Guyinblack25 talk 13:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC))
RE-Roster
ok it may be encyclopedic but now you dont even know who is in the game it only says that these wrestlers are not in it so i think a list is better at least you can understand it or if you cant change this to a list than change all other wrestling game like this.--Fhassan (talk) 12:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to ask this question to RobJ1981 and Guyinblack since it appears this controversy won't go away as an edit war appears to be brewing over this yet again - why are the 2005/6 versions of the roster in list form, and not prose?
- Yes, we all want what is best for the article. It seems to me there was clear consensus not once, but TWICE for the roster to be in list form, which should have been enough to end the "war". But alas, it is not to be, so do we need a request for mediation here on this issue? ArcAngel (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- A consensus to break policies isn't the way Wikipedia works. See WP:NOT#DIR and WP:GAMEGUIDE. Also the other game articles havent been turned into prose yet, so that's why they are lists still. RobJ1981 (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh god, here we go with this shit again...Rob I respect you for trying to make this article encyclopedic, but if you want the roster to be prose then all wrestling games will have to have their roster in prose. But as I see now, you only want this article in a prose, are you showing some favoritism to this article? Fuck the voting, debating. Consensus must be reached here and I agree with maestro, a list of the roster is no way in hell a game guide like thing. Not event the damn SvR game guides tell you the damn rosters. Per WP:GAMEGUIDE, its says that it shouldnt show you "a style of how to", a roster is not in that format. You are implying use of WP policies in a wrong way. And per the many discussions in the past, you are the only one who opposes a list. Think about all this...--TrUCo9311 23:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
- I repeat: consensus to break a policy isn't going to happen. Numerous people can be for a policy violation, but that doesn't make the policy banned from the article. Swearing at me isn't helpful at all, and is just being uncivil. I'm not the only one against the list. Bulletproof, as well as Guyinblack are against it as well. Next time read the talk page more, instead of assuming. I've went through some wrestling game articles and turned them into proses already. I havent gotten to all the Smackdown/Smackdown vs Raw games yet. I don't have the time to just go through all articles and make them all proses in an instant. I do more with my life than edit here. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Rob, those two policies you keep referring to don't have anything to do with this situation and everyone knows it. Secondly you keep telling people to read the talk page, yet you ignore it. You continue to claim it is a policy violation, but the onus is on you to prove it and you have yet to do so. Your justifications that it is game guide content and/or a directory couldn't be more off the mark, and simply referring to the policy isn't going to get it done. If you can't prove it without some generic blanket statements, then it's not actually violating policy. This is all agenda, zero substance. Angrymansr (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- 1) Rob, I did not directly swear at you, I sweared in general, like where i said F the voting, I mean forget about the voting. That violates WP:VOTE.2) Well if you and the others (minus Bulletproof due to certain issues surrounding him) want to have a prose, work in your sandboxes to construct a prose for all the SvR games. You cannot go around making one article with the same format of others into prose. We should leave it as a list for now, and when you have all the proses for all wrestling articles then we you can present your idea here. Or if you don't like that idea, let me go back to my previous comment. Lets CROSS DISCUSS THIS ISSUE with WP:VG and WP:PW so both projects can have a say in this. Currently I am not favoring a side as this issue has gotten way to out of hand, and now I just want peace and this issue to never be brought up again. So Rob (and others) you decide?..TrUCo9311 20:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Rob, those two policies you keep referring to don't have anything to do with this situation and everyone knows it. Secondly you keep telling people to read the talk page, yet you ignore it. You continue to claim it is a policy violation, but the onus is on you to prove it and you have yet to do so. Your justifications that it is game guide content and/or a directory couldn't be more off the mark, and simply referring to the policy isn't going to get it done. If you can't prove it without some generic blanket statements, then it's not actually violating policy. This is all agenda, zero substance. Angrymansr (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I repeat: consensus to break a policy isn't going to happen. Numerous people can be for a policy violation, but that doesn't make the policy banned from the article. Swearing at me isn't helpful at all, and is just being uncivil. I'm not the only one against the list. Bulletproof, as well as Guyinblack are against it as well. Next time read the talk page more, instead of assuming. I've went through some wrestling game articles and turned them into proses already. I havent gotten to all the Smackdown/Smackdown vs Raw games yet. I don't have the time to just go through all articles and make them all proses in an instant. I do more with my life than edit here. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Are people waiting for protection to end, to edit war again or what? This issue needs to be solved, so edit/revert wars stop. Later today or tomorrow, I will be posting a section on the wrestling and video game project talk pages (if I see no one else has done it by then). RobJ1981 (talk) 14:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I guess it could be that everyone is tired of this war and doesn't have anything more to say on it. I honestly don't see your POV Rob in where you call a roster list a game guide, when I saw nothing in GameGuide to support your reasoning. ArcAngel (talk) 17:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- My point exactly. The game guide argument is crap. The best attempt to justify this was WP:NOT#DIR says Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed but blatantly ignored the fact that none of the 5 bullets listed under that caveat remotely fall into this argument.Angrymansr (talk) 01:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Choosing to assume bad faith because of article problems, isn't helpful. Page protection is used to help solve issues, not just ignore issues so you can edit war some more (once protection ends). Refusing to discuss things isn't going to help the article at all. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can't be serious. You're the reason for this edit war, and everyone IS discussing it except you. What a joke.Angrymansr (talk) 03:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- Choosing to assume bad faith because of article problems, isn't helpful. Page protection is used to help solve issues, not just ignore issues so you can edit war some more (once protection ends). Refusing to discuss things isn't going to help the article at all. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- My point exactly. The game guide argument is crap. The best attempt to justify this was WP:NOT#DIR says Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed but blatantly ignored the fact that none of the 5 bullets listed under that caveat remotely fall into this argument.Angrymansr (talk) 01:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I guess it could be that everyone is tired of this war and doesn't have anything more to say on it. I honestly don't see your POV Rob in where you call a roster list a game guide, when I saw nothing in GameGuide to support your reasoning. ArcAngel (talk) 17:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I think in cases like these the Smash Bros. solution works best. Is there something equivalent we can use here or no? Nifboy (talk) 04:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- My response to Angrymansr: it takes 2 or more people to edit war. And don't make up garbage. More than just me are for a prose. See the below section as one example. Your view of "it's only you that is causing the problems" and "it's only you that wants a prose" is completely wrong. People discussed nothing when the page was protected. You and arcangel just said you were sick of the edit war and had nothing else to say. That's not discussing things, that's just complaining. To respond to nifboy: the Smackdown/Smackdown vs Raw series has featured hundreds of wrestlers, a huge table listing them all, would be even worse. We don't need to list all for completeness sake. RobJ1981 (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, I didn't "just" say I was sick of the war. I actually didn't say specifically I was tired of it, simply everyone was, and that I disagreed with your POV regarding GameGuide content. And it wasn't complaining, as you put it, but simply stating what I saw as the current state of affairs with regards to editing of the article. ArcAngel (talk) 20:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- Really Rob? Why don't you go back and re-read what we have been talking about. The clear discussion that we have been having while you have been hiding is that your theory that listing a roster is a violation of policy is flawed. I have asked you once before page protection on your talk page (Feb 14), as well as here on February 20th (after page protection), to show us how. You have failed to do so. You are willing to point to the policy, and when challenged, you ignore it. Since you have not proven that it is a violation of policy, what is there to discuss? The reason we are involved in this is because you (mainly) have been patrolling this page and reverting the roster list to a stub of a paragrah that you wrote while accussing people of violating policy.Angrymansr (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- Angrymansr, could please provide a rationale why the list is within policy? Perhaps that will get all the relevant information to this discussion out in the open better. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC))
List versus prose
I've said this before in November 2007. The roster should be prose, because of the following logic:
- Lists do not allow for any discussion of the wrestlers.
- Presenting the roster without any discussion of the wrestlers themselves fails WP:GAMECRUFT and a whole lot of other policies where that guideline is based on. Key issue: this article is not for wrestling fans who know each and every name there is, but for a general audience who don't know anything about wrestlers. Articles specifically written for wrestling fans do not belong on Wikipedia.
- Prose does allow this. Also, it is not necessary to include each and every wrestler and discuss him: discuss a few important and notable examples of the roster.
User:Krator (t c) 09:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, let me see if I get this right. If we put it like this, to discuss the wrestlers themselves:
- WWE SmackDown! vs. Raw 2008 roster
- Triple H - Asshole backstage yet one of the best wrestlers/mic men of all time
- Bobby Lashley - Uncharismatic musclehead who lost his original head in an accident as a child and had to transplant one from a baby
- Chris Masters - The only one with enough free time on his hands to do any voiceover work. Was released before release of game
- _______________________
- That would work for everyone right? --Kaizer13 (talk) 14:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to assume good faith and assume the above comment was not meant to be sarcastic. Such formatting is a step in the right direction, though I feel it does not need to be bulleted. As Krator points out, a full roster is not necessary for a video game article to be comprehensive. Even if the characters are real-life people, full character lists, weapon lists, stage lists, and the like offer very little to an encyclopedic video game article. And while I can't deny that there are people that would like to know such information, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to emulate GameFAQs. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC))
Kaizer13, that indeed is a step in the right direction. When the description would amount to "just another popular and good wrestler", consider not including such a character in the list. Be minimal in inclusion standards. User:Krator (t c) 18:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- Krator, you said lists do not allow for any discussion of the wrestlers. My question is, why is there a need to discuss the biography of any WWE roster member in this article? This article is not about the WWE wrestlers themselves, it is about a video game. While most games with playable characters have their own storyline in the game, this one does not. If people need to know who each wrestler is, they would not come to this article for that information. It is inherently given that anyone in this game is a professional wrestler.
- The way I see this roster is in the same light that I see the roster of the New York Giants or any other sports roster and should be trated as such.
- I think one suggestion that might be a decent comprimise is to make a list of the roster on a separate page and put a link to it under the subheader for roster. In that paragraph, state something to the effect of SVR 2008 boasts (insert # of playable superstars) of the WWE's top superstars. Then go into how each wrestler was programmed with many of their unique move sets, trademark entrances etc. This way the article looks less cluttered but the information is still available within wikipedia. I don't think removing the information is the right thing to do, but moving it might be okay.Angrymansr (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)