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[http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/majority-of-russians-would-support-putin-re-election--poll/563138.html That 80% number is outdated], but indeed there is no need for a lot of anti-Putin pictures in this Wikipedia article. — '''[[User:Yulia Romero|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:orange">Yulia Romero</span>]]''' • [[User_talk:Yulia Romero|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:blue">Talk to me!</span>]] 21:21, 28 March 2016 (UTC) |
[http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/majority-of-russians-would-support-putin-re-election--poll/563138.html That 80% number is outdated], but indeed there is no need for a lot of anti-Putin pictures in this Wikipedia article. — '''[[User:Yulia Romero|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:orange">Yulia Romero</span>]]''' • [[User_talk:Yulia Romero|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:blue">Talk to me!</span>]] 21:21, 28 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:Well, I was actually referring to his approval ratings at the time of the protests. Yes, too many anti-Putin |
:Well, I was actually referring to his approval ratings at the time of the protests. Yes, too many photographs of anti-Putin marches. It needs to be sorted out. [[User:EtienneDolet|Étienne Dolet]] ([[User talk:EtienneDolet|talk]]) 21:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC) |
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::What are these "anti-Putin photographs"? Can you please enumerate them? I'm not seeing any. Is the lighting bad in some of the portraits or something? Even before your recent extensive, and un-discussed changes (say, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vladimir_Putin&oldid=712366769 this version]) all I can find is a SINGLE - as in one, the integer less than two and more than zero - photo of some anti-Putin demonstrators. Is that what you mean by "too many". Or do you just mean "even one is too many"? Not clear on this. If not... can you enumerate all these "too many anti-Putin photographs"? [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 23:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) |
::What are these "anti-Putin photographs"? Can you please enumerate them? I'm not seeing any. Is the lighting bad in some of the portraits or something? Even before your recent extensive, and un-discussed changes (say, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vladimir_Putin&oldid=712366769 this version]) all I can find is a SINGLE - as in one, the integer less than two and more than zero - photo of some anti-Putin demonstrators. Is that what you mean by "too many". Or do you just mean "even one is too many"? Not clear on this. If not... can you enumerate all these "too many anti-Putin photographs"? [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 23:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC) |
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::Hmm, yes, I'm also trying to figure out what "anti-Putin photographs" are. The picture with Medvedev, who still has his full head of hair, maybe that one. Please, let's not get silly. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC) |
::Hmm, yes, I'm also trying to figure out what "anti-Putin photographs" are. The picture with Medvedev, who still has his full head of hair, maybe that one. Please, let's not get silly. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Drmies}} by anti-Putin photographs I meant the photographs of anti-Putin marches. But I could see why it can be interpreted as such, so I updated my comment to clarify that. [[User:EtienneDolet|Étienne Dolet]] ([[User talk:EtienneDolet|talk]]) 04:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC) |
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==Ratings, polls, and assessments== |
==Ratings, polls, and assessments== |
Revision as of 04:12, 30 March 2016
Vladimir Putin was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Economic, industrial, and energy policies
Under Putin, the economic environment of Russia has changed, partly due to the attempted radical market-oriented reforms characterized as "shock therapy (economics)" under Yeltsin, to a State monopoly capitalism (stamocap) economy, where the state (under Putin), controls all major industries and the overall economy.
State monopoly capitalism (stamocap) theory, also referred to as crony capitalism, refers to an environment where the state intervenes in the economy under an autocrat, or authoritarian dictator, to protect large monopolistic or oligopolistic businesses from competition by smaller firms.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Enealk (talk • contribs) 23:32, 24 May 2014
Rfc regarding sentence in the lede
Is the sentence It entered a recession in mid-2014, and shrank by 3.5% in 2015. regarding the Russian economy appropriate for the lede, or is it WP:UNDUE? I would appreciate it if the regulars of this article were to let someone uninvolved comment before rushing in and turning this into the usual talkpage flamefest, for once. Athenean (talk) 05:05, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- Lol, sure SaintAviator lets talk 05:20, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- If we have a paragraph about economy, then, yes, the phrase should be included per WP:NPOV. Perhaps we should not have a paragraph about economy at all (I do not have opinion about it), but this is a different question. The idea that "regulars" should not comment is wrong. What frequently happens in such cases are comments by people unfamiliar with the subject.My very best wishes (talk) 12:58, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- Any sentence in the lead should be a summary of material in the body of the BLP. [1] represents "due weight" for what is in the body of the BLP, and the current lead is abominable in its stress of POV rather than letting readers read the more fully-formed sections in the body of the article. Collect (talk) 15:10, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- That's why such RfCs are useless. Should phrase "..." be included? Yes or no, please! Neither. It should usually be rephrased or whole paragraph rewritten (for example as in diff you provided). Saying that, I think that current version is much better and explanatory than version in your diff that tells "...only to see problems after that period due to Western sanctions...". Which problems? This is completely unclear. This is very poor summary. My very best wishes (talk) 18:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- Russia has not counted for anything since it lost the Cold War, and Putin is destroying its economy with his disastrous policies. (92.15.207.55 (talk) 17:28, 19 February 2016 (UTC))
- It is really not helpful for the consensus building process when certain users reinsert the questionable material into the article, especially after the initiation of the RfC. Also, dismissing a RfC as "useless" is also concerning. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:03, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- Gimme a break. The following is NOT how Wikipedia is suppose to work: 1) remove text per WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, 2) run very quickly to the talk page and start an RfC, 3) demand that the text be not restored until the RfC concludes. That's about as blatantly bad-faithed WP:GAMEing as one can witness on Wikipedia. Starting an RfC is NOT suppose to be some kind of immunity from edit warring restriction or some kind of magic spell one casts to make sure one's disruptive edits don't get reverted. Try something else.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:37, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- I commented in a number of RfC and believe that one is indeed useless (for the reason explained above), possibly even disruptive as waste of time. Many discussions on-wiki are useless even if started in a good faith. My very best wishes (talk) 20:40, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- Re Useless, can you elaborate? SaintAviator lets talk 23:37, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- It is really not helpful for the consensus building process when certain users reinsert the questionable material into the article, especially after the initiation of the RfC. Also, dismissing a RfC as "useless" is also concerning. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:03, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, this sentence is due, just as pointing out that Russia also experienced relative prosperity under Putin. Dorpater (talk) 20:14, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Where do the inclusions in the lede stop? Why not Syria? Hockey? Ukraine? Its a BLP not A Russia sum up. Also agree with Étienne Dolet SaintAviator lets talk 23:30, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- No This is a biography of a politician, not an article about the Russian economy. The lead should summarize the main events of his life. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think this is a reasonable suggestion, but it means that the entire paragraph about economy should be removed. Leaving only successes and removing well sourced failures would go against WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 14:35, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- No its edit war detritus SaintAviator lets talk 06:52, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- Include - sources explicitly link the performance of the Russian economy to Putin and his policies.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:40, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- No The inclusion of random facts to disparage subjects is undue, and context must always be included. For example we would need to explain how that compared with similar economies, how meaningful the rate is for describing the economy, the reasons for the fall and the track record in prior years. Considering the price of oil fell 75%, the economic performance may well have exceeded expectations. TFD (talk) 23:24, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- Here is the paragraph in question: Putin's first presidency was marked by high economic growth: the Russian economy grew for eight straight years, seeing GDP increase by 72% in PPP. This growth was a combined result of the 2000s commodities boom, high oil prices, as well as prudent economic and fiscal policies. However, it began to experience problems subsequently due to falling oil prices and Western sanctions imposed as a result of Russian annexation of Crimea and military intervention in Eastern Ukraine. It entered a recession in mid-2014, and shrank by 3.7% in 2015. There is no way to consider this as something disparaging the subject. To me, that sounds laudatory: assigning economic successes to Putin, whereas they had actually happened due to high oil prices. Removing the entire paragraph might be an option, but this is not the question asked at the RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 23:45, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- Absolutely yes As already pointed out by others, the lead can NOT explain how Russia had a strong economic growth under the beginning of Putin's leadership, and then pretend it doesn't have massive economic problems now. That would be a big violation of NPOV. It's possible to delete the whole paragraph, but I do think the economic status of the country somebody is leading is significant and has due weight in a lead. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:38, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes per OpenFuture. The economic downturn is relevant. Just as good record in early 2000s is. I remember checking statistics about ex-USSR average wages a couple of years ago: only Estonia had it better then. By now, not only Kazakhstan but even Azerbaijan seems to have a higher average wage than Russia. How could this possibly be irrelevant? Dorpater (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- No Noting my position that the lead should be a "bare summary", if we add year-to-year commentary, we will soon end up with a very long ephemeral series of statements. Collect (talk) 12:58, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- But that's a bit of a strawman - nobody wants to add "year by year commentary". General overview + latest year info should be sufficient.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Also, this is essentially your second !vote in this RfC, and then you vote for a third time below.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:46, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do not include sentence The lead should focus on the person, not the Russian economy. Aeonx (talk) 07:03, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- No The lead needs to follow the Wikipedia Policies put in place. Thanks, RFC Volunteer Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 17:33, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes The significant economic success in 2000-2008 is the key to Putin's popularity in Russia and so it is rightfully in the lede. We cannot mention the success and not mention economic losses in 2014..2016. I t will be dishonest Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:06, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Summoned by bot. Relevant to the subject of the article and not given undue weight. Coretheapple (talk) 00:25, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Summoned by bot. It's debatable (but probably not undue) whether the economic ups and downs are of the Russian Federation are essential to the lead, but to the extent this information is deemed to be necessary enough to explaining Putin's success and notability, clearly we need to present a complete picture of those economic fortunes. One (incredibly short) statement to bring that story up to date is not much of a feature. Even considering that there is a preceding statement about recession, I don't view it as excessive to bring the content a little bit more up to date. This seems like information readers might reasonably want to know, if being presented with the economic influences on the man's domestic popularity in the lead at all. Snow let's rap 12:44, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- No. Please remove the entire paragraph about Russian economy from the lede, per WP:UNDUE. This is just one aspect of Putin's life while there are so many more aspects to cover and it's really arbitrary to put so much emphasis on that one aspect. 12:57, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- No As is made clear by some interesting comments above, this "inclusion" is not from a desire to follow policy, but a desire to make a point. As such, the inclusion would require an actual positive consensus which it is quite clear is lacking. Lacking a clear consensus for inclusion, the default is exclusion from the BLP. Collect (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ummmm... you do realize that this is like your THIRD VOTE in this RfC? You might want to strike one or two of them. One !vote one editor.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. Given that his notability is contingent on his being a high-profile political figure, as already noted by other editors, a brief statement is DUE for the lead for the sake of context (the emphasis, however, being on brief). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:30, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment summoned by bot This is not a well-framed discussion. As the lede is currently written, yes, this sentence is quite necessary because we need a holistic picture of the economy is we present it at all. That's the real question, though; why is so much of the lede devoted to Russia's economy under Putin? The paragraph could be pared down to one sentence, methinks, and the lede given over to, you know, biographical material. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: Bios are contingent on the person's notability. Putin is notable as being a high-powered world leader, therefore the bio is not going to focus on trivia about his favourite hobbies, or whether he has pets. (Incidentally, you forgot to sign your comment). Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna Harpy, yes, he is notable as the president of Russia, and therefore a subtantial part of the lede should be about his presidency. Nonetheless, when the accepted norm for a good lead (see GAN or FAC) is still four paragraphs, an entire paragraph about the Russian economy (not even about his policy, which would be better) is entirely undue. I didn't forget; I typed an extra tilde, which meant that it was rendered as a timestamp, rather than a signature. I have fixed it; thanks for pointing it out. Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: Bios are contingent on the person's notability. Putin is notable as being a high-powered world leader, therefore the bio is not going to focus on trivia about his favourite hobbies, or whether he has pets. (Incidentally, you forgot to sign your comment). Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- I stongly agree with Vanamonde. In fact I couldn't agree more. It's about time someone pointed out the obvious. This is a bio article, not Economy of Russia. Athenean (talk) 05:17, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Whether something is UNDUE or not depends on how much it is covered in sources. If one of the main things that sources talk about when discussing Putin is the economy, then it is appropriate for us to do likewise - it is not undue. If you think the info should be shortened (while maintaining NPOV) that's fine. But obviously economic outcomes are important in regard to Putin and his government.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:26, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- No to any discussion of the economy in the introduction, but if there must be, then yes to this sentence. Summoned by bot. I don't really think information on the economy during part of his presidency is necessary for the introduction, as just looking at the sections throughout the article demonstrate that the Russian economy is only a relatively small part of the article, and therefore does not need to be reflected in the introduction. This seems like some editors really wanted to portray Putin in a positive light by including GDP growth figures. I'd leave the whole paragraph out, but would definitely include if we're listing info on GDP growth during previous years. FuriouslySerene (talk) 14:37, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- Strongly agree. You make a valid point that the Russian economy is a small part of the particle. Furthermore, a quick survey of other longstanding world leader articles, from Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, David Cameron, Xi Jinping, and Dilma Rousseff, shows that in none of these articles is the country's economic performance mentioned in the lede. I was also ok with just reducing the coverage of the economy to one sentence, however considering the stances of some of the users involved in this discussion, I think that may not be possible. Athenean (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is WP:OTHERSTUFF. For Rousseff and Jinping, economic issues SHOULD be in those articles and they SHOULD be summarized in the ledes. The fact that those articles don't do that means there is a problem with OTHER articles, not with this one. For Obama, Merkel and Cameron the situation is different because it's covered differently in sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- Strongly agree. You make a valid point that the Russian economy is a small part of the particle. Furthermore, a quick survey of other longstanding world leader articles, from Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, David Cameron, Xi Jinping, and Dilma Rousseff, shows that in none of these articles is the country's economic performance mentioned in the lede. I was also ok with just reducing the coverage of the economy to one sentence, however considering the stances of some of the users involved in this discussion, I think that may not be possible. Athenean (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
- No economic performance is bases on many factors inside and outside the country.....base more on international influences over one leaders actions in his term. -- 17:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Rapp quotations on Putin's Syria affairs
I think the opinion of the opinion of the current United States Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues about whether Putin's actions in Syria can lead his persecution in international courts is relevant for Putin's bio. Taylor's precedent belongs to Rapp not to any wikieditor, is somebody finds the comparison to be ridiculous the criticism should be send to Rapp, not to editors. If some notable source criticizes the comparison we can also mention it here Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:48, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sure, Rapp may be notable, but just because a notable person said something that could happen Putin, doesn't mean it should belong in the article. Should we add every quotation about something that could happen to Putin made by a notable person in this article as well? I don't think so. Besides, there's hardly any consensus for the civilian massacre bit to be added in this article, let alone all this Charles Taylor stuff. In fact, there's hardly any support for the Charles Taylor stuff from users who actually like the civilian stuff being added too. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:20, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- I really hate it when edits are made at a rapid-fire rate simply because it doesn't allow for an opportunity to mull over whether the content is significant, but perhaps being in need of better qualification. The fact that an editor pulled a large chunk of it as 'cut & paste' - more, indeed, than was actually cut & paste - made it even more difficult to ascertain what's significant and what's not. The brunt of Rapp's argument (as related by an RS secondary source), is directed at Putin's administration, but I don't think that the Taylor example/analogy is needed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
If some notable source criticizes the comparison we can also mention it here.
Euh, no. From WP:NEUTRAL: If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article. This BLP is certainly not an ancillary article (it has been listed as a level-4 vital article). We shouldn't mention anything about this ridiculous claim. — 37 (talk) 03:57, 8 March 2016 (UTC)- Taylors gone, never discussed before, no consensus now. Get consensus to put it back SaintAviator lets talk 04:02, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- I really hate it when edits are made at a rapid-fire rate simply because it doesn't allow for an opportunity to mull over whether the content is significant, but perhaps being in need of better qualification. The fact that an editor pulled a large chunk of it as 'cut & paste' - more, indeed, than was actually cut & paste - made it even more difficult to ascertain what's significant and what's not. The brunt of Rapp's argument (as related by an RS secondary source), is directed at Putin's administration, but I don't think that the Taylor example/analogy is needed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- EtienneDolet, you keep saying "just because something is sourced, it doesn't need to be in the article" and now "just because something is notable, it doesn't need to be in the article". After awhile it becomes pretty clear that what you're really saying is "if I don't like it, it's not going to be in the article". And when it's pointed out that yes, things which are notable do indeed belong in the article, you fall back on the "no consensus! no consensus! no consensus!". This is THE textbook definition of WP:TENDENTIOUS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:00, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Nope, you're claiming that just because something is sourced and notable, it should be added to the article. However, there's millions of things that are sourced or notable about Putin, but we can't add it all. For example, we can add a longer and more detailed section about his dog Buffy, but we don't, even though it's notable and there's a lot of sources about him. That's why we have Buffy's own article to place such information there. It's all just an attempt to remain in scope of the subject. That's just how things work around here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Tridek Sep, no. IF we were stating Rapp's view as fact then you'd be right. But we're not - which you of course know very well. All we're doing is saying "Rapp, who is notable, said this and this". That is precisely how it should be done. WP:NEUTRAL has nothing to do with it, the only question is whether Rapp is someone who is notable or not, and as EtienneDolet above says, he is.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- EtienneDolet, you keep saying "just because something is sourced, it doesn't need to be in the article" and now "just because something is notable, it doesn't need to be in the article". After awhile it becomes pretty clear that what you're really saying is "if I don't like it, it's not going to be in the article". And when it's pointed out that yes, things which are notable do indeed belong in the article, you fall back on the "no consensus! no consensus! no consensus!". This is THE textbook definition of WP:TENDENTIOUS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:00, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Just so we're clear, Iryna Harpy, are you actually criticizing me for removing copypasted material? Material which you went on to restore, knowing it to be a copyright violation? You are also accusing me of pulling "more, indeed, than was actually cut & paste". In fact, it was only two or three (insignificant) words more:
Removed text: According to Rapp there is a precedent for holding a head of state criminally responsible for aiding forces in another country that are committing war crimes. Taylor was sentenced to 50 years in a British prison for, among other things, “aiding and abetting” the Revolutionary United Front as it massacred civilians. However here’s no forum to even litigate allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity being committed in Syria right now and none in the foreseeable future, which mirrors allegations against the USA in Iraq.
Bloomberg: Rapp[...]said that there is precedent for holding a head of state criminally responsible for aiding forces in another country that are committing war crimes. Taylor was sentenced to 50 years in a British prison for, among other things, “aiding and abetting” the Revolutionary United Front as it massacred civilians. There’s no forum to even litigate the war crimes and crimes against humanity being committed in Syria right now and none in the foreseeable future.
Copypasted or not, I agree the Taylor analogy is problematic and should remain out. --Hillbillyholiday talk 04:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna Harpy, I understand your concerns regarding paraphrasing, but this case is different. Copyvios are taken very seriously in Wikipedia, and it is Wikipedia policy (per WP:DCV in fact) to remove copyright material right then and there. Restoring copyright material, as you did here, is a big no-no, even if you promise to eventually paraphrase it (and I had no doubt that you were going to do that). In other words, the text that should be restored should not be the copyright version (even if it's for a second), but a paraphrased version. I know your edit was in good faith though, and I appreciate that you went out of your way to paraphrase the material, so I really don't want to sound too critical here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) No, Hillbillyholiday, I was not criticising you. It simply put me in a position of having to make a quick decision as to retaining the brunt of the text by paraphrasing it as this article has been subject to some heated debate (let's just call that an understatement) with content being removed, restored, re-jigged, reconstituted, and liable to be lost somewhere between the rapid-fire editing... so I paraphrased it enough to remove blatant plagiarism long enough for other editors to considered the value of the content, knowing full well that it would be eliminated within a very, very short period of time as has now occurred. I should have expressed my thanks for your having spotted the cut & paste, but was busy with my blustering here on the talk page. Thanks, also, for weighing in on the discussion. The more fresh eyes on the content, the better. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:41, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- BTW Iryna, you are known for your high grammar skills SaintAviator lets talk 04:46, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- She is also known for many other good things, not only that SaintAviator. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:48, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- But of course. SaintAviator lets talk 06:08, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- She is also known for many other good things, not only that SaintAviator. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:48, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- BTW Iryna, you are known for your high grammar skills SaintAviator lets talk 04:46, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, no worries. Copyright problems aside, with material as contentious as that paragraph, I think it best to provisionally remove it, and if needs be, copy it over to talkpage for discussion. Anyway, thanks for explaining. --Hillbillyholiday talk 04:52, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Hillbillyholiday: Unfortunately, I tend to work on about 5 articles simultaneously (which was what was happening at the time), and I do know better than to restore COPYVIO. I'd only taken a cursory glance, and didn't realise the extent of the copy/paste. Loopy Harpy brain tends to be convinced that it's attached to a superwoman so, once I'd started, I just rushed through changing the text instead of popping it into my sandbox and/or here. Apologies to all for biting off more than I can chew. Moral of the story: don't copy edit one article while translating refs in another article, leaving comments on a TfD, an AfD, simultaneously cleaning up 'ethnic group' and 'country' infoboxes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:11, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is just random speculation/commentary from someone with an axe to grind that has been barely noted in the real world other than in passing. It no more belongs here than what someone with a similar post in Russia might have idly said about any US military escapade. As ever, adding yet more material on top to counter it is not an answer; nor is accusing people opposing its inclusion of tendentious or biased editing (especially when the hat might better fit the accuser, who happily removes perfectly well-sourced and arguably relevant material they happen not to like, loudly citing "NPOV" or "RS", while reverting removal of material that is genuinely weakly sourced or screamingly biased and trivial, just because they happen to like it). N-HH talk/edits 09:34, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Could we please just draw the line here on GRUDGE, ASPERSIONS, and general SYNTH diffs (I can attest to at least one of your diffs pointing to a genuinely disruptive editor, so don't just pluck anything that suits out of context). So many of these controversial article talk pages are absolutely toxic because the same editors rub shoulders on multiple articles. It's detrimental to the project to make talk pages so intimidating as to put off any new editors from involving themselves in the consensus process. Please drop all weapons before entering the arena when the going gets hot under the collar. It may be difficult to assume good faith when everyone genuinely feels as if they've been banging their heads against a brick wall, but it's still the best way to approach the most sensitive of subjects. Naturally, my interest lies in having the last word because I'm so brilliant and terrific that I can't get enough of listening to me! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:57, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- The "Syria section" [2] is terrible. By supporting the discredited regime of Assad, Russia openly acts against the "coalition". That somehow get lost. Yes, the atmosphere is very bad, but this is not just the talk page. One of participants around here recently submitted a 3RRNB report (about VM), an ANI report (about VM), an WP:AE report (about Galassi), and an arbitration request (about VM and me), all of which were left without action. That is toxic and prevents improvement of the page. So, yes, please drop the "weapons".My very best wishes (talk) 03:21, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- MVBW you made three points. In response. 1. The UN is against the Jihadists. Russia is doing the most by far to kill them, under the UN mandate, in Syria invited by the legitimate Govt. Forget US regime change propaganda. You say Russia is against The Coalition. The Coalition who supplied IS / Nusra / Ansar? That one? Or the Saud one which promotes the warped Wahhabism doctrine which birthed beheaders of non believers? You have got to be kidding. (BTW Moderate beheaders dont exist) 2. After all this, you say drop your weapons. Left alone this article would afaik turn into anti Rus POV. Its turns Toxic when people fight to insert toxic POV stuff. Thats the reality here. Editors are willing to listen and compromise, I have found, to sensible suggestions. But they are not prepared, imho, to give up their discernment, or be gamed. 3. Personally I agree with those investigations 'that' editor got up. I sure learned a lot reading those statements, including that some admins dont see it as over. SaintAviator lets talk 05:04, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- The "Syria section" [2] is terrible. By supporting the discredited regime of Assad, Russia openly acts against the "coalition". That somehow get lost. Yes, the atmosphere is very bad, but this is not just the talk page. One of participants around here recently submitted a 3RRNB report (about VM), an ANI report (about VM), an WP:AE report (about Galassi), and an arbitration request (about VM and me), all of which were left without action. That is toxic and prevents improvement of the page. So, yes, please drop the "weapons".My very best wishes (talk) 03:21, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Could we please just draw the line here on GRUDGE, ASPERSIONS, and general SYNTH diffs (I can attest to at least one of your diffs pointing to a genuinely disruptive editor, so don't just pluck anything that suits out of context). So many of these controversial article talk pages are absolutely toxic because the same editors rub shoulders on multiple articles. It's detrimental to the project to make talk pages so intimidating as to put off any new editors from involving themselves in the consensus process. Please drop all weapons before entering the arena when the going gets hot under the collar. It may be difficult to assume good faith when everyone genuinely feels as if they've been banging their heads against a brick wall, but it's still the best way to approach the most sensitive of subjects. Naturally, my interest lies in having the last word because I'm so brilliant and terrific that I can't get enough of listening to me! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:57, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is just random speculation/commentary from someone with an axe to grind that has been barely noted in the real world other than in passing. It no more belongs here than what someone with a similar post in Russia might have idly said about any US military escapade. As ever, adding yet more material on top to counter it is not an answer; nor is accusing people opposing its inclusion of tendentious or biased editing (especially when the hat might better fit the accuser, who happily removes perfectly well-sourced and arguably relevant material they happen not to like, loudly citing "NPOV" or "RS", while reverting removal of material that is genuinely weakly sourced or screamingly biased and trivial, just because they happen to like it). N-HH talk/edits 09:34, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Hillbillyholiday: Unfortunately, I tend to work on about 5 articles simultaneously (which was what was happening at the time), and I do know better than to restore COPYVIO. I'd only taken a cursory glance, and didn't realise the extent of the copy/paste. Loopy Harpy brain tends to be convinced that it's attached to a superwoman so, once I'd started, I just rushed through changing the text instead of popping it into my sandbox and/or here. Apologies to all for biting off more than I can chew. Moral of the story: don't copy edit one article while translating refs in another article, leaving comments on a TfD, an AfD, simultaneously cleaning up 'ethnic group' and 'country' infoboxes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:11, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
The Rapp stuff is out currently, and I don't see a strong desire to reinsert it here, so this debate is probably done for now. As for flagging up the recent contributions and more distant history of some editors here, it has more to do with transparency than "grudges" or "aspersions". If they are going to loudly proclaim their purported dedication to NPOV and proper application of WP's sourcing policies and accuse others of bias and tendentious editing, there's nothing wrong with pointing out the rather glaring problems there. Especially to avoid third parties coming by, taking a cursory glance and falling for it. N-HH talk/edits 10:10, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
it fell into recession subsequently due to falling oil prices and Western sanctions
It's a selection of two reasons of many. The system is stiff, no reforms are possible. Low oil prices could have been expected. Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Are you referring to that sentence?--WatchingContent (talk) 20:32, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2016
Putin married Alina Kabayeva, Olympic gymnast, 2014. - Putinism: Russia and It's Future with the West by Walter Laqueur 2015[1] 2601:483:C300:64E0:29D4:7496:89CF:DC5C (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- BLP, rumours are not allowed. SaintAviator lets talk 03:17, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
References
- ^ Putinism: Russia and It's Future with the West by Walter Laqueur 2015
difficulty with editing this article
Anyone know - or can just confirm a similar experience - why when you try to edit this article it takes a long time to load and there appears to be some kind of lag/freeze? As in you type in a letter then have to wait three seconds for it to show, you type another, three more seconds, etc. I thought it was because the article was so long but this does not happen with even longer articles. It also happens regardless of computer, OS or browser. Weirdly enough, a similar thing happens on the Russian intervention in Syria article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Mines very fast. Its your PC or connection. Or maybe? No surely not.......... SaintAviator lets talk 23:24, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
"large scale protests"
Removed from the lede, as it is subjective and POV. A few thousand protesting liberals is not "large scale protests", not in a country of over 100 million. The rest of Haberstr's edits are an improvement as well, so I restored them. Athenean (talk) 07:26, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- What do the sources say? That's what matters, not your personal opinion. And no, Haberstr's edits were pretty much POV pushing and weaseling. Like adding the word "alleged" where it's not supported by sources (or even Putin) or removing links to articles he doesn't like. Might as well noted that Haberstr has been warned several times by admins about his editing on Russia related topics for this very reason.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- What do they say? They say that the demonstrations were typically of the order of a few thousand people, i.e. not "large-scale" for a country of over 100 million. I don't see anything about "large scale" in the sources. They also say there were large counter-demonstrations, which is conveniently ignored. Athenean (talk) 16:43, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek: Once again, for perhaps the 1000th time, please stop disparaging my character and good faith by calling my edits POV pushing and weaseling (and stop lying about what admins have said to me). If you disagree with the content of an edit just explain why and don't groundlessly attack others' good faith. As you know, several disparaged editors have repeatedly attempted in a civil manner to discuss this violation of WP policy (WP:GF) with you at the Admin Noticeboard [3]. You don't seem to 'get it' there, but I hope our persuasive efforts will help you eventually figure out what we're asking from you.Haberstr (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- In a nation of 145 million large scale would be 1 Million plus, minimum, in several locations. SaintAviator lets talk 23:21, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- There were large protests before and after the election because many people believed Putin had stolen millions of votes from his opponent. (217.42.27.219 (talk) 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
please explain
what exactly is POV or "weaseling" in this edit per the edit summary. Additionally, it's pretty obvious Athenean that you are purposefully "mimic-ing" my edit summaries which is obnoxious. Please stop.
Haberstr's edits were pretty clearly POV. Like adding in the word "alleged" for no reason. Or removing the link to the Russian financial crisis (2014–present) from the article. The fact that he's trying to sneak in POV changes under the guise of grammar fixes doesn't exactly help to inspire good faith.
Nznk's edit [4] was also a clear cut case of WP:WEASEL where they changed "reported" to "claimed".
- My* edits on the other hand did nothing of the sort.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:37, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your edit was a blanket revert of all my changes, which is highly disruptive and obnoxious. I have changed the "reported" and "alleged", but the rest of those edits stand. The claims by Zuyganov are not lede material, and the whole "electoral fraud" thing for the 2012 elections is more factually reported in Haberstr's version, not yours. And since when is the SOHR considered a reliable source? Last time I checked it failed the "reputation for fact checking" part of WP:RS. Athenean (talk) 16:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Anyway I re-instated the link to the Russian financial crisis (2014-present), and removed the "alleged". Anything else? Athenean (talk) 17:04, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for reinstating that link and removing the "alleged". However, SOHR is a reliable source - why wouldn't it be? If you got a problem with it I suggest taking it up at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is a marginal partisan group, essentially a one-man-enterprize run by a certain Rami Abdulrahman. Dorpater (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- SOHR, this “group” is nothing more than a one-man blogger operating out of one of the bedrooms in his two bedroom home in Coventry, England, reading and repackaging other peoples’ blogs and tweets. It gets better – “He also runs a clothes shop” SaintAviator lets talk 00:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Marginal? Must be why they're quoted so often by so many sources. New York Times calls them a "monitoring group". NPR says they "monitor the conflict". Yahoo News mentions them. Reuters says that they've been "cited by virtually every major news outlet since an uprising ... began". Also that they have "been a key source of news on the events in Syria"\. And of course they also use them as a source [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-shishani-idUSKCN0WC0N8. We can keep going: The Economist. Associated Press. BBC ("a watchdog group"). The Guardian. DW. Etc. etc. etc.
- Marginal my butt.
- Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- SOHR, this “group” is nothing more than a one-man blogger operating out of one of the bedrooms in his two bedroom home in Coventry, England, reading and repackaging other peoples’ blogs and tweets. It gets better – “He also runs a clothes shop” SaintAviator lets talk 00:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is a marginal partisan group, essentially a one-man-enterprize run by a certain Rami Abdulrahman. Dorpater (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for reinstating that link and removing the "alleged". However, SOHR is a reliable source - why wouldn't it be? If you got a problem with it I suggest taking it up at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- So while ya'll's opinions are appreciated they aren't really relevant since they contradict a wide array of sources and boil down to nothing more than a WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You always can, if you want to, bring it up at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Lets get a consensus going (counting) 3 : 1 against the bedsit blogger. But bigger than that you are starting edit warring behaviour again (will we soon see MVBW?) by adding POV minor stuff not suited to a BLP. I suggest you go edit the linked article to vent your enthusiasms on minor points on the Syrian War topic (shakes head mutters 'I knew he'd try again') SaintAviator lets talk 01:32, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- No. That's not "consensus". That's vote stacking and tag teaming. Consensus is build on reliable sources. Local "consensus" does not trump general consensus on reliable sources. And this is a reliable source as shown by my links above. Again, please feel free to bring this up at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- (ec) Per WP:RS "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." A self-published blog by an clothes-seller with no journalistic credentials (or even a secondary education) fails this criterion [5]. Athenean (talk) 02:16, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Nonsense. They DO have a "reputation for fact checking and accuracy" which is EXACTLY why they're used as by NY Times, BBC, The Guardian, Reuters, etc. etc. etc. I've provided links above. All you've done here is let us know what your personal feelings about the matter are. That's not how this works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Here's another vote against the one-man PR operative in the used clothing shop. No way his "SOHR" can be seen as a WP:RS Santamoly (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Again. Reliable sources disagree with your particular opinion. Your characterization of the organization does not inspire confidence either.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- And you guys really should drop the false "it's a blog by a cloths maker" narrative. Here is an extensive profile of the organization from a reliable source [6]. Let's see what THEY (as opposed to some Wikipedia accounts with battleground attitudes) have to say about them:
- "The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights has emerged as a prominent campaign group amid the country's revolt against President Bashar al-Assad, releasing daily casualty figures for the international media" (oh, but supposedly they're "marginal" (sic))
- "The group of mainly professionals, many of them lawyers, monitored changes to the law and the judicial system, and worked to highlight cases of human rights abuses" (a clothes-maker running a blog? Riiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhtttttttt....)
- "It now has more than 200 members and affiliates, covering every province in Syria, with some volunteers aggregating and publicising information from the UK" (a single guy running a blog? Who are you trying to kid? Please stop)
- "The group says it is impartial in its reporting, recording the deaths of soldiers as well as civilians and protesters. The names of all those killed are carefully documented, along with the circumstances surrounding their death, including videos if they are available." (calling this source "partisan" makes sense only if you're hell bent on pushing a FRINGE POV to begin with)
- Seriously, how are we supposed to have a serious good faithed argument when the claims being made on this talk are so flagrantly false and against reliable sources? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Again. Reliable sources disagree with your particular opinion. Your characterization of the organization does not inspire confidence either.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- (ec) Per WP:RS "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." A self-published blog by an clothes-seller with no journalistic credentials (or even a secondary education) fails this criterion [5]. Athenean (talk) 02:16, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- No. That's not "consensus". That's vote stacking and tag teaming. Consensus is build on reliable sources. Local "consensus" does not trump general consensus on reliable sources. And this is a reliable source as shown by my links above. Again, please feel free to bring this up at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- There is so much y'all can do to help yourselves here. I've looked at the edits, and the biggest difference that I see is the "an announcement which led to large-scale protests in many Russian cities..." thing. If that's verified in the source, well, it probably should be in. The rest is mostly phrasing and not worth fighting over. The other thing, that y'all are discussing to death here, is about a report/claim by a blogger/press organization--a thing that has no place in this article, which is a biography. I'm almost tempted to really put my admin hat on and cut the whole "President Putin authorized Russian military intervention..." section as UNDUE and a BLP violation; the sources all go "Russia launches airstrikes..." or some variety thereof, not "Putin launches airstrikes...". This kind of metonymy is, in my opinion, not acceptable in BLPs. University administrators shouldn't get the credit for every graduate or every building, presidents shouldn't get all the credit for every job gained, and in this biography Russian politics shouldn't be completely subsumed. You already have 75k in Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil War and 147k in Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War--it should seem obvious that a link will do. Drmies (talk) 02:13, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Please do. Such action is long overdue. It's perhaps the only way to deal with the incredibly tenacious POV-pushers that plague this article. Athenean (talk) 02:17, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not to mention that the same applies to all that economic mumbo-jumbo in the lede. Athenean (talk) 02:20, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe so. But I said "almost tempted". I still hope that common sense will prevail and that the POV pushers on both sides will push toward the middle--like, the possibly GA-type article middle, in which case the White Whale and the Amur Tiger might also disappear from the article. And the "Under Putin, the Hasidic FJCR became increasingly influential" section. And any number of other sections. But this has to start with a serious discussion on what is relevant in a BLP and what is not--a discussion which here seems necessary, not so much in other articles. Look at, for instance, a similar very controversial issue: the Falklands War in Margaret Thatcher, a GA. Drmies (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- I dont know, look here below. Thatcher thrived in this war, and is even criticized for not doing enough. Its almost all about Thatcher, because it was (and theres more in the article).
- Maybe so. But I said "almost tempted". I still hope that common sense will prevail and that the POV pushers on both sides will push toward the middle--like, the possibly GA-type article middle, in which case the White Whale and the Amur Tiger might also disappear from the article. And the "Under Putin, the Hasidic FJCR became increasingly influential" section. And any number of other sections. But this has to start with a serious discussion on what is relevant in a BLP and what is not--a discussion which here seems necessary, not so much in other articles. Look at, for instance, a similar very controversial issue: the Falklands War in Margaret Thatcher, a GA. Drmies (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- On 2 April 1982 the ruling military junta in Argentina ordered the invasion of the British-controlled Falkland Islands and South Georgia, triggering the Falklands War.[159] The subsequent crisis was "a defining moment of her [Thatcher's] premiership".[160] At the suggestion of Harold Macmillan and Robert Armstrong,[160] she set up and chaired a small War Cabinet (formally called ODSA, Overseas and Defence committee, South Atlantic) to take charge of the conduct of the war,[161] which by 5–6 April had authorised and dispatched a naval task force to retake the islands.[162] Argentina surrendered on 14 June and the operation was hailed a success, notwithstanding the deaths of 255 British servicemen and 3 Falkland Islanders. Argentinian deaths totalled 649, half of them after the nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror torpedoed and sank the cruiser ARA General Belgrano on 2 May.[163] Thatcher was criticised for the neglect of the Falklands' defence that led to the war, and especially by Tam Dalyell in parliament for the decision to sink the General Belgrano, but overall she was considered a highly capable and committed war leader.[164] The "Falklands factor", an economic recovery beginning early in 1982, and a bitterly divided opposition all contributed to Thatcher's second election victory in 1983.[165] Thatcher often referred after the war to the "Falklands Spirit"; Hastings and Jenkins (1983) suggested that this reflected her preference for the streamlined decision-making of her War Cabinet over the painstaking deal-making of peace-time cabinet government.[166] SaintAviator lets talk 04:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Notice the focus on Thatcher, as opposed to focusing on alleged misdeeds by the British forces, and other off-topic stuff. Athenean (talk) 04:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Except for the sentence "Argentinian deaths totalled 649, half of them after the nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror torpedoed and sank the cruiser ARA General Belgrano on 2 May.[163]" which adds context. Likewise here, it'd be enough to have just one sentence in the article on the number of casualties.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:23, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Nope. In fact it should be the sentence about the casualties that should be removed from the Thatcher article, rather than adding more irrelevant crap here. Athenean (talk) 06:47, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- My take also is that the casualties belong in the linked article. SaintAviator lets talk 09:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Nope. In fact it should be the sentence about the casualties that should be removed from the Thatcher article, rather than adding more irrelevant crap here. Athenean (talk) 06:47, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Except for the sentence "Argentinian deaths totalled 649, half of them after the nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror torpedoed and sank the cruiser ARA General Belgrano on 2 May.[163]" which adds context. Likewise here, it'd be enough to have just one sentence in the article on the number of casualties.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:23, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Notice the focus on Thatcher, as opposed to focusing on alleged misdeeds by the British forces, and other off-topic stuff. Athenean (talk) 04:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposing removal of economy information from the lede
The main (and obvious) argument is that this material is not directly related to Putin, in fact it is only very tangentially related to him. To devote an entire paragraph of the lede to this sort of stuff is WP:UNDUE. There is not a single country leader article that contains this kind of detailed info on the ups and downs of a country economy in the lede. This article suffers from far too much material not directly related to Putin in it, it is time to clean up, starting with the lede. Proposed. Athenean (talk) 06:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Agree, remove all SaintAviator lets talk 08:59, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Given that it can fairly be said that his popularity rests in part on Russia's rebound from the economic chaos of the Yeltsin years, something should probably be said about this in the lead (see these pieces, for example, which cannot be said to be "pro-Putin" particularly). However, it does not need a blow-by-blow account of the ups and downs of the Russian economy during his leadership (much of the other lead content is also too detailed, including the ins and outs of individual elections and the stuff about "tandemocracy" – and is that phrase even widely acknowledged or used? Equally, it needs more summary information about what he has actually done as president, eg in foreign policy, economic policy, dealing with post-Soviet issues etc) N-HH talk/edits 10:56, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose - material related to economics is covered by any serious source which discusses Putin. For a good reason, both Putin's domestic popularity and Putin's foreign policy are closely related to Russia's economic outcomes. This proposal is a straight up WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT and it contradicts Wikipedia policy. And just to be clear - BOTH the positive and the not-so-positive need to be mentioned. In other words, this part of the current lede is fine (other parts have problems).Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:30, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Does it ever occur to you that how to concisely summarise germane content, especially in a lead, is a matter of judgment, and that people who happen to disagree with yours are not necessarily "POV pushing", "contradict[ing] policy" or trying to censor material they "don't like" but are just taking a different view about how best to select and present relevant information? The lead currently, in paras 3 and 4, goes into exorbitant detail about individual election results and economic statistics/trends respectively. By contrast, it tells us virtually nothing about Putin's actual policies or actions, including on the economy. I would argue that including the latter, in summary, in the lead is more important and more informative to a reader looking for information about Putin himself. Now, that's just my opinion of course, but – just like you – I would argue that my opinion is correct. N-HH talk/edits 17:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it does. Sometimes people I disagree with are acting in good faith and the difference is simply a matter of opinion. But other times - and very frequently on articles such as this - nah, it really is just dedicated POV warriors editing against policy. The fact that all the arguments boil down to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT rather than being policy-backed is sort of indicative of that. Believe it or not, I'd put you in the first group.
- So, in regard to the length of the lede. First note how several editors involved here were perfectly fine with a long lede that had information on economics as long as it was all positive info. Same thing with Syria, as long as it was pro-Putin puffery not a single one of them had an objection to it. It was only when the info was balanced and made neutral did these accounts suddenly discover the virtues of "shorter lede!" "too long!" "off topic!" etc. See what I mean?
- As to the substance, note how long this article is. A four paragraph lede for an article this size is perfectly appropriate. Yes, there probably is too much detail about individual elections - that part I agree with, but that's not the issue being discussed here. However, the info on the economy is pretty sparse. It's basically two sentences. There's nothing UNDUE about it. And it's supported by sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:54, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would remove from the lead the economic information as WP:UNDUE and out of WP:SCOPE with a biographical article. It's hard to attribute the booms and busts of the Russian economy to Putin himself. We've had similar problems elsewhere in this article and it has been resolved simply by its removal. I'd much rather see content in the lead that can be directly attributed to him, rather than indirectly influenced by him, or some other ambiguous premise. It's not as if the booms and busts of the Russian economy is authorized or set in stone by Putin. With that said, I agree with N-HH and think policy should be the main focus. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:19, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I removed it. There's very little support for its inclusion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- There's an ongoing RfC right above and tag-teaming is not consensus. I do think it ... funny, how all of sudden you've discovered the virtues of a shorter lede once it was made neutral. You were fine with the economic info being in there as long as it was all glowing and slanted pro-Putin. Whether or not the info should be in there depends on whether major sources which discuss Putin talk about the economy. And they do.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:54, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Again, we should focus on policy, rather than the booms and busts of the economy in Russia, which are almost like bad weather, and may have nothing to do with Putin. Just because sources say so, doesn't mean it should be inserted there either, especially in the lead. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:01, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- We should focus on what sources focus on, period. And if we don't base our articles on sources, what exactly are we suppose to base them on? Your own personal feelings and whims? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, we shouldn't. That's not how Wikipedia works. With that logic, we'd have to add information on his dog Buffy in the lead just because it's reliably and extensively sourced. In fact, I could safely argue that Buffy has more of a personal connection to Putin than a boom and bust economic cycle which has little to do with him personally. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Uh... so you ARE in fact saying that we shouldn't base the reliable sources??? Holy crap, that was a rhetorical question, I didn't think you actually believe that. So let's ask it again - if not reliable sources, then what? Whatever EtienneDolet says? Is that "how Wikipedia works"?
- Look. It's not that hard. If most serious sources on Putin talk about the economy so do we. Most serious sources do not discuss Buffy at length. Neither do we. There. Done.
- And just to state the obvious one more time, whether or not "Buffy has more of a personal connection to Putin than a boom and bust economic cycle which has little to do with him personally" is NOT up to you to decide (honestly, I doubt whether you're qualified to answer that question). It's up to the sources. All these problems on the talk page and 90% of the problems with the article stem from the fact that you and a few others refuse to actually follow policy/sources but insist instead on offering your own personal opinions and using those as a basis for this article. Which is why this article is still crap.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, that's not what I said. Do not use straw man arguments here, and stop putting words in my mouth. I simply said that just because something is reliably sourced doesn't necessarily mean it belongs in the article, and especially in the lead. Might as well add stuff about Buffy, Koni, and his favorite food in the lead too right? Aren't those things reliably sourced too? What I'm trying to say here is that it's effectively up to us, as Wikipedia editors, to decide that. This article has actually improved over this last couple of months. The Forbes information has been added. But besides that, without my guidance and opinions, we'd have analogies of warlord Charles Taylor in this article. And the civilian killings you have now backed off from is also a major improvement, which I had opposed as well. But that's besides the point. And please, don't personally attack me (i.e. "honestly, I doubt whether you're qualified to answer that question"). I am qualified to make observations and raise concerns just like any other editor here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, not right. Buffy and pals might be *mentioned* in sources about Putin but the economy under Putin is *discussed* in depth in sources about Putin. Are you seriously saying that how an economy does under its leader is as trivial as the leader's pets? Who's the one setting up strawmen? "You don't think useless trivia should be in the article therefore you also have to agree that very important stuff shouldn't be in there either" Huh? No, no, no. And no, it's not really "up to us" - it's up to editors who are actually following Wikipedia policy. An encyclopedia article is not a hodge podge of the editors' feelings and whims as you want to have it (as long as they are your feelings and whims of course).Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, there you go. This now goes back to what you have said yourself. We, as Wikipedia editors, are to decide what is meant by in depth coverage or relevancy. We are to decide what is more significant, and what is even less so. We decide, for example, whether articles should be deleted or created, whether material should be added or removed, whether it's due or not, and etc. etc. And once we have that established, we have another hurdle to jump, and that is if it's personally relevant to Putin's life. In that regard, Buffy is more personally relevant to Putin's life than a boom and bust cycle of a capitalist economy. So at this point, I have not seen any semblance of an argument from you that assesses either of these points. Therefore, I am sticking with my original opinion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, not right. Buffy and pals might be *mentioned* in sources about Putin but the economy under Putin is *discussed* in depth in sources about Putin. Are you seriously saying that how an economy does under its leader is as trivial as the leader's pets? Who's the one setting up strawmen? "You don't think useless trivia should be in the article therefore you also have to agree that very important stuff shouldn't be in there either" Huh? No, no, no. And no, it's not really "up to us" - it's up to editors who are actually following Wikipedia policy. An encyclopedia article is not a hodge podge of the editors' feelings and whims as you want to have it (as long as they are your feelings and whims of course).Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, that's not what I said. Do not use straw man arguments here, and stop putting words in my mouth. I simply said that just because something is reliably sourced doesn't necessarily mean it belongs in the article, and especially in the lead. Might as well add stuff about Buffy, Koni, and his favorite food in the lead too right? Aren't those things reliably sourced too? What I'm trying to say here is that it's effectively up to us, as Wikipedia editors, to decide that. This article has actually improved over this last couple of months. The Forbes information has been added. But besides that, without my guidance and opinions, we'd have analogies of warlord Charles Taylor in this article. And the civilian killings you have now backed off from is also a major improvement, which I had opposed as well. But that's besides the point. And please, don't personally attack me (i.e. "honestly, I doubt whether you're qualified to answer that question"). I am qualified to make observations and raise concerns just like any other editor here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, we shouldn't. That's not how Wikipedia works. With that logic, we'd have to add information on his dog Buffy in the lead just because it's reliably and extensively sourced. In fact, I could safely argue that Buffy has more of a personal connection to Putin than a boom and bust economic cycle which has little to do with him personally. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- We should focus on what sources focus on, period. And if we don't base our articles on sources, what exactly are we suppose to base them on? Your own personal feelings and whims? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Again, we should focus on policy, rather than the booms and busts of the economy in Russia, which are almost like bad weather, and may have nothing to do with Putin. Just because sources say so, doesn't mean it should be inserted there either, especially in the lead. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:01, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- There's an ongoing RfC right above and tag-teaming is not consensus. I do think it ... funny, how all of sudden you've discovered the virtues of a shorter lede once it was made neutral. You were fine with the economic info being in there as long as it was all glowing and slanted pro-Putin. Whether or not the info should be in there depends on whether major sources which discuss Putin talk about the economy. And they do.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:54, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I removed it. There's very little support for its inclusion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Against my better judgment I'm going to step in here occasionally as an outside observer. Closing out a proposal less than 12 hours after it was made is overly hasty. The world won't end if you wait a few days for people to respond. I also suggest that this be formally structured as a WP:RFC so as to include views from a wider range of editors. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:57, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose (keep this info in introduction). Economic successes and the current crisis of Russian economy are attributed by multiple RS personally to Putin. This is because the ungoing economic sanctions by Western countries against Russia resulted from the disasterous political decisions (annexation of Crimea, the military intervention in Donbass, etc.) taken personally by Putin. In addition, the so called economic "counter-sanctions" which harm the economy of Russia were also decided by Putin. This is not a democratic country. Therefore, the "leader" is a lot more responsible. That all was described in numerous recent sources, as well as in older sources, such as "Putin. Itogi", Putin. Corruption and Putin. War by Boris Nemtsov who was recently killed ... My very best wishes (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please, no looney fringe type arguments based on looney-fringe sources. Athenean (talk) 22:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is my judgement based on my knowledge of the subject. No one usually provides long list of refs in RfC voting. I only noted a couple of most notable books (ones that we have WP pages about). My very best wishes (talk) 16:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- The fact that you're calling Boris Nemtsov "looney-fringe" pretty much illustrates that your views are themselves WP:FRINGE and that you're purpose here is just to push a POV.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Given your ideological predilections and propensity to personal attacks, your comment comes as no surprise. However, you can seek an opinion on WP:RSN, but somehow I doubt you will like the result. Athenean (talk) 23:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but you have no idea what my "ideological predilections" are. All you know is that I disagree with your propensity to reflexively push pro-Putin POV by trying include only positive info and removing anything even mildly critical. And if you really think that one of the most prominent Russian journalists is "looney fringe" - which isn't surprising seeing as how you claimed earlier that BBC was not a reliable source - then you got no business editing a mainstream encyclopedia. I suggest other outlets which might be more conducive to your POV and will undoubtedly let you "publish" your original research all day, like Metapedia or Conservatopedia.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh no, your contribs and long and troubled history give me a very good idea of your predilections (West=good, Russia=bad). With which "Conservatopedia" (sic) is closely aligned. Athenean (talk) 23:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- My contribs are just fine, you might want to think about yours instead. And if you honestly think that you have described... "my predilection" with any degree of accuracy you need to rethink that. But hey, I understand where you're coming from. If you're a dedicated POV pusher then anything that doesn't agree with your point of view is "POV" or "looney fringe", even if it comes from the most respectable sources. If your intent on Wikipedia is to "win" battles and treat it like a WP:BATTLEGROUND then you quickly fall into the mindset that everyone else must be the same.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Accusing others of what you are yourself guilty of, as usual. Nothing new or original here. You block log and checquered history shows who is the one treating the encyclopedia as a battleground. Nothing you can do will change that. But we digress. Not that it was me who first personalized the discussion, but hey, if you want to go down that route...Athenean (talk)
- My contribs are just fine, you might want to think about yours instead. And if you honestly think that you have described... "my predilection" with any degree of accuracy you need to rethink that. But hey, I understand where you're coming from. If you're a dedicated POV pusher then anything that doesn't agree with your point of view is "POV" or "looney fringe", even if it comes from the most respectable sources. If your intent on Wikipedia is to "win" battles and treat it like a WP:BATTLEGROUND then you quickly fall into the mindset that everyone else must be the same.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh no, your contribs and long and troubled history give me a very good idea of your predilections (West=good, Russia=bad). With which "Conservatopedia" (sic) is closely aligned. Athenean (talk) 23:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep this information. As already said, I don't see any reason to remove this all from the lead. One of the reasons Putin enjoyed great popularity is simply the fact that his coming to power coincided with the recovery of the Russian economy (which actually already began when Primakov was the PM).Dorpater (talk) 18:32, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- An entire paragraph on Russia's economic performance is way too much, and the current version as it is phrased has nothing to do with Putin. For example, the article on Margaret Thatcher, a GA, devotes only one sentence to Britain's economic performance under Thatcher, and three sentences on Thatcher's economic policies. This is what we should be aiming for here: Putin's policies, not Russia's economic performance, which is affected by a large number of things, not just Putin. Athenean (talk) 22:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Two sentences is all we need. And again, what matters is sources not other Wikipedia articles, or personal opinions (we're getting way too much of that here).Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- An entire paragraph on Russia's economic performance is way too much, and the current version as it is phrased has nothing to do with Putin. For example, the article on Margaret Thatcher, a GA, devotes only one sentence to Britain's economic performance under Thatcher, and three sentences on Thatcher's economic policies. This is what we should be aiming for here: Putin's policies, not Russia's economic performance, which is affected by a large number of things, not just Putin. Athenean (talk) 22:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well right now we have more than two sentences on Russia's economic performance, and practically nothing on Putin's policies. Not sure about which sources you keep talking about, but pretty much none of the sources currently used to source that paragraph in the lede have anything to do with Putin. In fact, some don't even mention him at all. Which is the best proof that it needs to go. Athenean (talk) 23:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- We have more than two sentences - four to be exact - in one short paragraph because this is actually the "compromise version". Which you guys are now trying to remove completely. Which is why these discussions are so frustrating - we work on trying to compromise and then one of you (EtienneDolet, Athenean or SaintAviator) comes in and say "we're gonna do whatever we want to anyway, thank you for letting us waste your time".Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- And now it's
twothree sentences. Satisfied? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well right now we have more than two sentences on Russia's economic performance, and practically nothing on Putin's policies. Not sure about which sources you keep talking about, but pretty much none of the sources currently used to source that paragraph in the lede have anything to do with Putin. In fact, some don't even mention him at all. Which is the best proof that it needs to go. Athenean (talk) 23:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't recall any such compromise. The current version was imposed by brute-force edit-warring by you and your tag-team friends. That's not compromise. And copy-editing gimmicks are not a solution. Athenean (talk) 23:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe you don't, now that you've changed your mind. Sort of convenient. And this wasn't a "gimmick". Your objection was that supposedly the info shouldn't be in here because it was too long. So I shortened it. Now even that is not enough for you. So who's being unreasonable? Who's unwilling to compromise? Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't recall any such compromise. The current version was imposed by brute-force edit-warring by you and your tag-team friends. That's not compromise. And copy-editing gimmicks are not a solution. Athenean (talk) 23:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- User Dorpater is not my "tag-team friend" just because we happened to agree with him about this. My very best wishes (talk) 01:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh no, obviously I didn't mean Dorpater. But you already knew that, didn't you? Athenean (talk) 01:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- For the same reason I am not a "tag-team friend" of anyone else just because I happened to agree with someone else on a number of occasions and disagree on a few others. My point is very simple: you should really stop making such accusations. Well, I do not really mind if you make them on my talk page, but I strongly object when you make them on arbitration or article talk pages. My very best wishes (talk) 03:38, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I actually never mentioned you. But it's interesting you are reacting so defensively.Athenean (talk) 04:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, sure, I can see that you target another contributor. My very best wishes (talk) 12:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I actually never mentioned you. But it's interesting you are reacting so defensively.Athenean (talk) 04:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- For the same reason I am not a "tag-team friend" of anyone else just because I happened to agree with someone else on a number of occasions and disagree on a few others. My point is very simple: you should really stop making such accusations. Well, I do not really mind if you make them on my talk page, but I strongly object when you make them on arbitration or article talk pages. My very best wishes (talk) 03:38, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Agree - Putin and his policies should be the focus of the lead section, not the ups and downs of the Russian economy. Follow the guidance of the other GA articles on well-known national leaders.Haberstr (talk) 02:36, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think you mean "support"? The proposal is for removal of the economic material. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Wholesale deletions
Recent large number of deletions by VM are undiscussed. The sheer scope of deleting all this thought over hard work is IMHO a vandalism / edit warfare / revenge cocktail. Admin please. SaintAviator lets talk 01:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- You are not seriously asking for admin help are you? If it concerns VM, steer well clear of all of them. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- See, VM suggests you get a block, and an admin jumps in to boldly threaten you with one [7] without any intervening giving of advice. Have you really learned nothing from the recent cases related to VM? Given the impossibility of improving things and the inevitability of being blocked if you continue to try, I suggest leaving the article alone. Let it turn into even more of a joke article than it already is. It is not a serious article that anyone would use for research, and I doubt if Putin is loosing any sleep over it! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
SaintAviator I'd appreciate it if you didn't describe my edits as "vandalism". That will quickly get you blocked. They were good faithed and constructive edits which removed a whole bunch of stupid junk from the article. This whole article is pretty much shit. Part of the reason it's shit is because there's so much trivial, inane, irrelevant promo puffery in it (while certain editors choose to try and remove info which is actually important, relevant and of interest to the reader under the pretense that this article is "too long", while leaving all the crap that must've been added by a some junior high kids) I'm not the only one who has noticed this, just the latest one whom you guys haven't managed to drive off with your tag team edit warring and constant drama board attacks.
Removing junk from an article is not "vandalism". Putting it back in... well, that's not vandalism either, but it is pretty disruptive. And in this particular case it appears that the only reason you put it back in was... because it was myself in particular who removed it. That's even worse, as it's classic WP:BATTLEGROUND.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please explain (without ad hominems, if you can), how this material you removed is "shit". This wouldn't be the first time you removed material on bogus pretenses would it [8]? And of course, this doesn't apply to anti-Putin material, does it. Oh no, not at all. Athenean (talk) 03:57, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your accusation that I've EVER "removed material on bogus pretenses" is totally false. And you're trying to pretend that *I* am the one making "ad hominens"? Seriously?
- And why is it shit? Because it's inane trivia and puffery. Funny that in one discussion, on one issue, you're going on about how this article is too long so we should remove some text (the kind of text that doesn't agree with your POV). And on the very same talk page, in a different discussion, on another issue, you appear to think that ridiculous promo stuff that would look embarrassing on a high school graduate's resume is just fine and should be kept. Double standard much? Make-up-any-reason-no-matter-how-contradictory-to-get-your-way much? (and of course turn around and demand that others "assume good faith" even as you blatantly try to WP:GAME'em).Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Evasion, straw men, and ad hominems. Par for the course, in other words. Evasion: You were asked to justify this edit [9], you didn't (because you can't?). Straw men: I never said that the economics paragraph from the lede should be removed because the article is too long, but rather on the grounds of irrelevance to the topic of the article. Here again is my proposal for your convenience [10]. Can you point to where I said it should be removed because it makes the article too long? That's right, didn't think so. And yes, you did remove relevant info on bogus grounds (although I'm sure it was justified in your head) here [11]. You could have easily found a source for this, but no, it doesn't fit your POV, so out it goes. What else is new? Athenean (talk) 08:10, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
VM I know your modus op now. Its not time yet for your IDONTLIKEIT carpet bombing, that comes when people revert. But I see the WP:BATTLEGROUND is here. Ironic. No this is your 'Mass Deletion cycle'. Soon you will do the 'mass additions cycle'. Hoping to keep causing enough chaos to wear people down to get the article POV anti Putin. I dont believe anymore you are a team player. I gave you that faith early on. So did others. You destroyed it. Im not interested why. After all these dramas it always comes back to you. This article would settle down if you were topic banned, probably for your own good. Its not personal BTW. SaintAviator lets talk 04:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the frog you're talking about and all you're doing is putting your own WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality on display. I don't know if this article would settle down or not, but I am pretty sure that it would stay in its current sorry state or get even worse. And don't try to threaten me with some spurious topic bans which no one has even considered.
- Like I said - DON'T refer to my edits as "vandalism".Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- You know exactly what I'm talking about. You often do mass deletes / additions. What would you call it if someone came and deleted 9000 bytes in 7 sections in a short time? SaintAviator lets talk 05:34, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- An editor. You do realize that that is what actual editors do in real life, right? Remove crap from author manuscripts. The only difference is that the problems are even worse on Wikipedia, and they are even worse than Wikipedia-average on this article.
- Read WP:VANDALISM and then cut it out.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:44, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do you think all the fuss / boards / time wasted over the last month with you at the centre has not damaged Wikipedia? Do you think you are disruptive? The key thing is Good Faith. Do you have it or are you gaming the system? These are the questions that can cross over into vandalism. A good faith editor after all thats gone on would have discussed. You need to self revert and discuss SaintAviator lets talk 05:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do you think that you're neither a police interrogator nor a qualified psychologists? Do you think that asking bad faithed question of the "have you stopped beating your wife" variety is not actually dishonest? Do you think I went and filed those drama board discussions myself or something or are you just being daft? Do you realize that in none of these discussion was I actually sanctioned in any way and instead most of them WP:BOOMERANGed on the person filing them? Don't you think it wise to draw a lesson from that? Do you have something better to do than waste people's time with silly questions?
- Since you already reverted me and then your tag team friend jumped in and reverted some more just for the thrill of it, there's nothing I could "self-revert" is there? Stop. Calling. Other. People's. Edits. Vandalism.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- So No then on the remaining reverts? BTW I'm having trouble with your grammar SaintAviator lets talk 06:47, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Apropos nothing, there's little wrong with his grammar. And short of an issue of competence existing- and I do not think that is the case- statements such as "I'm having trouble with your grammar" constitute criticism of the editor, not content. However that's not the real problem here is it. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:11, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- So No then on the remaining reverts? BTW I'm having trouble with your grammar SaintAviator lets talk 06:47, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do you think all the fuss / boards / time wasted over the last month with you at the centre has not damaged Wikipedia? Do you think you are disruptive? The key thing is Good Faith. Do you have it or are you gaming the system? These are the questions that can cross over into vandalism. A good faith editor after all thats gone on would have discussed. You need to self revert and discuss SaintAviator lets talk 05:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- You know exactly what I'm talking about. You often do mass deletes / additions. What would you call it if someone came and deleted 9000 bytes in 7 sections in a short time? SaintAviator lets talk 05:34, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I was asked to throw random blocks around. Who wants one? OK--SaintAviator for false accusations of vandalism (the header here--now tweaked by administrative fiat), Athenean for failure to AGF such as in "Putin's reaction is relevant, and was removed on bogus grounds". Volunteer Marek, I'm having a harder time finding his violations than y'all's, perhaps surprisingly: Marek seems to be doing a better job than you all playing the ball, and not the man. However, there's "you're purpose here is just to push a POV", which is a lack of AGF and thus violates NPA, and "funny, how all of sudden you've discovered the virtues of a shorter lede once it was made neutral": no sarcasm on Russian topics, please. Plus, as understandable as it is, this and this is edit warring, whether broadly or narrowly defined and governed under two sets of discretionary sanctions. Finally, there's EtienneDolet, whose revert during an ongoing RfC is disruptive.
So, I have enough here to block four people, and if I look harder I can probably find more; I could finger Haberstr for this edit summary. I think the edit itself is fine, but the edit summary and the POV accusation is not. And Tiptoethrutheminefield, I removed that tasteless remark of yours. Now, against my better judgment and against the advice of such worthies as Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, I do not wish to hand out blocks like Easter candy, but this is to say that anyone can hand out those blocks with good reason. On the bright side, the article has been trimmed some, though VM has been doing much of the heavy lifting and, I have to say, from 220k to 213k, that's minor, though it's a good sign.
Cut down the snark, follow the accepted guidelines for RfCs. Y'all do NOT want to start reverting each other since just about every revert here is disruptive one way or another. But most of all, cut down the snark. Boris, I'm sorry. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:44, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Who asked you to hand out "random blocks"?Haberstr (talk) 02:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Heck - I do not like articles over 120K and would likely trim this one that much. <g> Collect (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just as you were writing this I jotted down the same number elsewhere as a target. Drmies (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- LOL - GMTA - see Joseph Widney for my scissors. 140K down to 34K Collect (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- How about this: leave the lede alone for now, since that really should be determined by what's in the article itself, so it makes sense to tackle it at the end. But focus on the text body and start cutting. I tried to get that going but I do have a feeling - whether this is assuming bad faith or not - that if I do it, it will be reverted simply because I'm the one making the changes, but if someone else does it, it might stick.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:32, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- LOL - GMTA - see Joseph Widney for my scissors. 140K down to 34K Collect (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just as you were writing this I jotted down the same number elsewhere as a target. Drmies (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Hi Drmies, I did not think this was a RfC at that time. It really wasn't obvious upon first glance without the RfC template. I thought it was a simple proposal followed by discussion. At that moment, my understanding was that there were 4 users, as opposed to 1 user, that demanded its removal. But your point is well-taken and perhaps I removed it too early. I'll have it better-timed in the future whenever it's deemed necessary. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thats the first target range in bytes thats been put up. Good. Its what we need. Discussion makes things go better. Lol. Considering the turbulent history here it honestly seemed to me like something else was going on. More of the same. A simple discuss on a target range by VM, being the reason for wholesale deletions, would have got me talking. There was also a period when people here, including VM, were adding a lot of stuff, bloating it out. @Drmies: BTW I never supported the TipToe aspersion, I disagree, I think you handled this well. I appreciate you seeing the Good Faith. This thread will be the catalyst that took the worst heat out of the editing. Seriously theres not been enough honest discussion, as it then morphs into snark. This is a good start. SaintAviator lets talk 23:23, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am happy to see these comments; good faith is like ... oh, come up with your own damn metaphor. If you have it, you'll get more of it from others. VM's suggestion about leaving the lead alone sounds like a good plan, and then you can fight over that lead later. (BTW, I saw some back-and-forths about this economic stuff, but there's a paragraph on that in the lead of the Thatcher article, so it shouldn't be entirely left out, I suppose--remember, Thatcher is a GA.) I seriously think that the more you all manage to cut that's not essential, the less opportunity there will be to fight over particulars. Only a few days ago there was a discussion about the reliability of a Syrian blogger or something like that; that shouldn't have to happen in an article on a Russian politician. Thank you all, Drmies (talk) 23:41, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Good Faith 'is' catchy. I now have a large store of Good Faith in you. Yes lets leave the lead till later. All the heavy fighting 'was' over these details, so your advice on reduction neatly solves it. I think that blogger too was a ref for just more non essentials. These points are wise points people SaintAviator lets talk 00:04, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
So. Can I remove the stuff I tried removing? It really was non-essential fluff.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:37, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not the stuff I re-added yesterday. I don't agree with the characterization of it as "non-essential fluff". Athenean (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Talk detail guys. Best to be like Étienne & Collect below, takes a minute to outline the removal in a thread to keep it all clear. SaintAviator lets talk 01:42, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- And this is how ideas that sound good in theory, end up dying in practice. Just not enough good faith to fuel that engine.
- Anyway - [12] this is restoring material that's obviously written in POV way. Gazprom was created "in national interest"? Really? Care to show me where it says that in the source? I'm pretty sure that's just a straight up POV misrepresentation of the source.
- This is also unnecessary and is an instance of special pleading. The source is not reliable either.
- And with regard to this I thought it was agreed to remove superfluous information about the election outcomes from the lede? Oh, wait, that's right, we can only remove anything that can potentially make Putin look bad (like the fact that there was voter fraud) from the lede, but not anything that makes him look good.
- Athenean, you said you were going to step back. So step back for a few days, then come back and evaluate the effort once it's had a chance, rather than just trying to short circuit it even before it can get started.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:13, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am willing to disengage, but I was hoping you would do the same or at least focus on something else instead of trying to remove my edits the minute I said I was willing to disengage. I certainly don't agree with your "special pleading" characterization. If we're going to imply that Putin is involved in Politkovskaya's murder, then we should at least include his reaction. If you feel that source is not reliable, it's not hard to find another one. Regarding this [13], I really don't see why we should remove the 64% of the vote (I assume that's what you mean and not the other part of my edit which is just a copyedit). That's just a neutral fact, and we mention the margin of victory for the other two elections, so I really don't see the case for removing the 64%. I'm ok with the removal of the OSCE sentence (see below), but not this. Athenean (talk) 02:30, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Guys Im not feeling the love! From Drmies above 'VM's suggestion about leaving the lead alone sounds like a good plan'. Lets do that. It is a good suggestion. BTW for non minor edits a new discussion thread like below, would be best. SaintAviator lets talk 02:55, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposal to remove OSCE opinions from the lead
I propose removing the excessive amount of information (don't know how it got there) regarding voting irregularities from the lead:
Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe observers evaluated election day voting positively overall but assessed the vote count negatively in almost one-third of polling stations because of procedural irregularities.
Reason being is that there's already criticisms mentioned in the previous sentence. Also, the lead can be shorter this way. Indeed, the OSCE is a notable organization, and its opinion counts. But such lengthy, and rather complicated, criticisms should not be in the lead. Instead, it should be elaborated somewhere in the body at best. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:12, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's fine to remove this from the lede.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:38, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes of course SaintAviator lets talk 23:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
typical possible editing style
Talk:Vladimir Putin/KGB shows a rough edit showing that there is no reason I can see why we should not quickly shrink this BLP by at least 25% without cutting any actual substance. Collect (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Good work. SaintAviator lets talk 23:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Collect: I think that'll be great. By the way, aren't there any FAs that are 200,000+ bytes? Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Collect: Okay, well your work on the KGB section is good. Do you have that ready to go? It will be helpful since we can reduce quite a few bytes from there. Once that's done, we can look into other sections and reduce them as well. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Collect: Sorry, keep pinging you here. How do you feel about the "Speeches abroad" section? It's one of the largest sections, and I doubt that the topic (Speeches abroad) is notable enough to merit its own section, especially one of that size. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is a tad like "reactions of foreign leaders"- type sections about notable deaths ... a very large amount of it is not of use to the reader much at all. Perhaps an RfC on its utter removal - allowing "really important stuff" too be moved into relevant sections, would be best. Collect (talk) 07:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Those sections are either not required or in need of heavy trim SaintAviator lets talk 22:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is a tad like "reactions of foreign leaders"- type sections about notable deaths ... a very large amount of it is not of use to the reader much at all. Perhaps an RfC on its utter removal - allowing "really important stuff" too be moved into relevant sections, would be best. Collect (talk) 07:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Collect: Sorry, keep pinging you here. How do you feel about the "Speeches abroad" section? It's one of the largest sections, and I doubt that the topic (Speeches abroad) is notable enough to merit its own section, especially one of that size. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Putin as fascist
An excellent RS to consult http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967067X16000039 .--Galassi (talk) 00:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Soooooooooo how is that you wanted to improve this article again? Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's a reliable source from an academic expert. So what is the problem? Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Might I suggest that consideration of this source be deferred until after the reorganization and trimming currently in progress is complete? Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sure we can wait, though we'll see how quickly this reorganization and trimming proceeds; I can see it getting bogged down in more petty reverts and sniping.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sure we can wait, though we'll see how quickly this reorganization and trimming proceeds; I can see it getting bogged down in more petty reverts and sniping.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- No problem.--Galassi (talk) 01:36, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is just one of many publications, and it is about country, not that much about Putin. One point many analysts agree about: Putin is unimportant. Almost nothing will change in the country if he disappears one day. The "ruling elite" are Chekists. According to Putin, the decision to take Crimea was made by "five men", and this is probably true. My very best wishes (talk) 08:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- No problem.--Galassi (talk) 01:36, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sure we can wait, though we'll see how quickly this reorganization and trimming proceeds; I can see it getting bogged down in more petty reverts and sniping.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's a reliable source from an academic expert. So what is the problem? Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's a speculative OPINION PIECE by an anti-Putin and Ukrainian nationalist ideologue. See WP:BIASED. From WP:RS: "Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that..." I hope the preceding guides your and our thinking when we consider using a biased source.Haberstr (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not a "speculative OPINION PIECE" but rather a scholarly article on the nature of Putin's government. Published in a peer reviewed well respected journal. By one of the top experts on the subject matter. From Rutgers University and Harvard. "Bias" is in the eye of the beholder.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your "top expert" has openly wrote about supporting Ukrainian nationalism, you can find this in both his publications and scholarly works on the subject.
- Motyl is a AMERICAN INTELLECTUAL and an ACADEMIC. You would need a major proof that he is a "nationalistic ideologue" of any sort.--14:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- John A. Armstrong’s myth-symbol paradigm of ethnicity by Anna Siewierska-Chmaj in SPRAWY NARODOWOŚCIOWE Seria nowa / NATION ALITIE S AFF AIR S New series, 46/2015: 64–71 DOI: 10.11649/sn.2015.034 writes about Motyl's open support for Ukrainian nationalism.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That source most certainly DOES NOT say that Motyl is a "nationalistic ideologue" or that there is "Motyl's open support for Ukrainian nationalism". In fact, Motyl is barely mentioned in that source. This is a reminder that WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well as articles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- John A. Armstrong’s myth-symbol paradigm of ethnicity by Anna Siewierska-Chmaj in SPRAWY NARODOWOŚCIOWE Seria nowa / NATION ALITIE S AFF AIR S New series, 46/2015: 64–71 DOI: 10.11649/sn.2015.034 writes about Motyl's open support for Ukrainian nationalism.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- His ideology is obvious on his World Affairs page[14], but what matters is that this new contribution is just another speculative opinion piece. There is a wide array of opinion on Mr. Putin, much of it by professors and intellectuals with various ideologies. Why not start a new subsection called "Putin as Russia's Savior" too? Because, like a "Putin as Fascist," it would be WP:UNDUE.Haberstr (talk) 01:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know what his "ideology" is and as far as the reliability of the source that's sort of irrelevant.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Here is what Per Anders Rudling writes about Motyl "The perhaps most intelligent denial of the OUN’s fascism and collaborationism is made by a political scientist, Alexander Motyl. Motyl’s argument differs from the crude denial of the OUN-affi liated historians. It is instead based upon the OUN’s failure to establish a state. While Motyl admits the OUN’s enthusiasm for a fascist Europe, its fascist intentions, he presents fascism is a model of organizing an existent state. This interpretation shifts the focus away from ideology to measurable achivement. Fascism, according to Motyl’s interpretation, becomes primarily an issue of whether a movement is successful in achieving its goal of controlling a state"(...)While Motyl’s stringent criteria for fascism disqualifi es the OUN, he defi nes contemporary Russia as an “unconsolidated fascist state." He presents himself as “a long-time critic of the Bandera movement,” yet his denial of
- I don't know what his "ideology" is and as far as the reliability of the source that's sort of irrelevant.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not a "speculative OPINION PIECE" but rather a scholarly article on the nature of Putin's government. Published in a peer reviewed well respected journal. By one of the top experts on the subject matter. From Rutgers University and Harvard. "Bias" is in the eye of the beholder.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's a speculative OPINION PIECE by an anti-Putin and Ukrainian nationalist ideologue. See WP:BIASED. From WP:RS: "Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that..." I hope the preceding guides your and our thinking when we consider using a biased source.Haberstr (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
the OUN’s fascism and collaboration has become an important component of the narrative of diaspora nationalists and pro-OUN intellectuals. It is diffi cult to escape the notion that a definition of fascism which includes Medvedev’s Russia, but not Bandera and Stets’ko, is tailored to fi t the self-image and ideological needs of a community which to various degrees identifies with the pro-OUN tradition"[15].--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC) The salient part appears to be:
- Fascism may be defined as a popular fully authoritarian political system with a personalistic dictator and a cult of the leader
Which appears to include the USSR for most of its existence in the first place, Castro's Cuba, Mao's China, Mugabe's Zimbabwe, Maduro's Venezuela and a host of other countries and eras. Are you sure you think this is a prudent course to follow? Especially since it offers a view:
- " Not being a type of group, disposition, politics, or ideology,
Which does not appear exactly congruent with the usual usage of the now-dysphemistic term. Collect (talk) 13:55, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, first that's original research. A reliable source gets to define "fascism" however it wants. Second, that's only the abstract. By virtue of it being an abstract, I'm sure it doesn't present the full definition and view of the subject.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:RS doesn't simply say "use any marginal piece of subjective opinion, commentary or speculation that happens to appear in a newspaper or even an academic publication", nor does it operate in a vacuum or as a trump card, however useful it might be for people trying to score points while suggesting they are simply following WP rules to pretend that it does. Just because a publication or author may be said to be "reliable" in a WP or even general sense, it doesn't mean everything recorded in it or by them becomes an encyclopedic fact or even particularly significant. Opinions, assessments and judgments, however reputable or otherwise the publisher and however eminent or otherwise the holder of them, remain opinions, assessments and judgments – and often heavily biased, minority or even fringe ones (yes, even among academics). Putin's Russia is not normally described as "fascist" as the term is formally understood. And as it happens, even the piece being cited, in its abstract, talks about a "reconstruction" of the concept of fascism, which in turn "may plausibly" allow the label to applied to Putin – which is all a bit flimsy. N-HH talk/edits 14:19, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not "opinion", it's scholarly work. It's not "marginal", it's a publication in a well respected, peer reviewed, journal, by one of the top experts in the literature. Who's a professor at Rutgers University. It's only "opinion, assessments and judgment" in the sense that ALL scholarly work is "opinion, assessments and judgment". As to how Putin's government is described in the literature - actually there's a good bit of the debate in the literature as to whether it's "fascist" or something else, like "neo-imperialist". So the term does actually appear fairly frequently as a description. This particular article represents one particular side in that debate ("Putin is not just another authoritarian neo-imperialist but actually fascist" vs. "it's crypto-fascism or quasi-fascism, but not quite there... yet") but that means that that view should be represented along with others (and of course attributed).Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Motyl openly wrote about his support for Ukrainian nationalism as construction myth of Ukrainian state. He is not a neutral author.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is not true. Please remember that BLP applies to talk pages as well as articles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Before trying to insert this variant definition of "fascism" here as a valid claim of fact, I suggest you see how far you get inserting this source into the Fascism article as a redefinition of the term found there, as a claim of fact. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's WP:OTHERSTUFF. Anyway, for the moment I haven't inserted anything in the article. Mostly because on its own, with just this source, that would indeed create a POV problem. This is because this is part of a larger academic debate and to balance it we would need to have the publications from the other scholars who are working in this literature. I do strongly object however to trying to dismiss this source out of hand.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Motyl openly wrote about his support for Ukrainian nationalism as construction myth of Ukrainian state. He is not a neutral author.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not "opinion", it's scholarly work. It's not "marginal", it's a publication in a well respected, peer reviewed, journal, by one of the top experts in the literature. Who's a professor at Rutgers University. It's only "opinion, assessments and judgment" in the sense that ALL scholarly work is "opinion, assessments and judgment". As to how Putin's government is described in the literature - actually there's a good bit of the debate in the literature as to whether it's "fascist" or something else, like "neo-imperialist". So the term does actually appear fairly frequently as a description. This particular article represents one particular side in that debate ("Putin is not just another authoritarian neo-imperialist but actually fascist" vs. "it's crypto-fascism or quasi-fascism, but not quite there... yet") but that means that that view should be represented along with others (and of course attributed).Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- What you said is all true and should be applied to attempts to introduce the figures and claims of the "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" as well.Dorpater (talk) 16:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
BTW, that article is from a special issue of a journal which is dedicated to scholarly assessment of Putin's government "Special Issue: Between Nationalism, Authoritarianism, and Fascism in Russia: Exploring Vladimir Putin’s Regime" [16]. I think that using scholarly works in this Wikipedia article would be a huge improvement upon its current state and sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I think this is valid source by a highly qualified historian, Alexander J. Motyl. However, some other historians are talking not about fascism, but about Corporatism. That's why Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky called their book (which describes the history of Putin coming to power) "The Corporation" [of Chekists]. Something about Corporatism in Russia, where Putin is allegedly the head of the "Corporation" should be included I think. My very best wishes (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Motyl is a supporter of Ukrainian nationalism so he is hardly a neutral author here(John A. Armstrong’s myth-symbol paradigm of ethnicity
- Yes, I think this is valid source by a highly qualified historian, Alexander J. Motyl. However, some other historians are talking not about fascism, but about Corporatism. That's why Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky called their book (which describes the history of Putin coming to power) "The Corporation" [of Chekists]. Something about Corporatism in Russia, where Putin is allegedly the head of the "Corporation" should be included I think. My very best wishes (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
by Anna Siewierska-Chmaj in SPRAWY NARODOWOŚCIOWE Seria nowa / NATION ALITIE S AFF AIR S New series, 46/2015: 64–71
DOI: 10.11649/sn.2015.034)--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That source most certainly DOES NOT say that Motyl is a "nationalistic ideologue" or that there is "Motyl's open support for Ukrainian nationalism". In fact, Motyl is barely mentioned in that source. This is a reminder that WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well as articles. This is in fact your THIRD reminder.
- Also, can you please format your comments correctly as they're pretty hard to read. Additionally I don't see the need to make the same comment three different times.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- As for the comment above – "It's not 'opinion', it's scholarly work. It's not 'marginal', it's a publication in a well respected, peer reviewed, journal, by one of the top experts in the literature" – academics like everyone else have and express opinions in their work, and sometimes those opinions are indeed marginal in terms of the mainstream consensus. This is a rather uncontroversial point, one would have thought. The wider point was simply that there is a difference between verifiable "facts", which expertise and research can help to establish, and broader assessments or opinions about more subjective issues. There is. I'm glad you also accept that the Motyl piece should not be used on its own, for NPOV reasons if nothing else – but there was none of that nuance when the link was initially posted here by someone else. Obviously academic works as a general rule are indeed preferred as sources, but the other risk with some of the cited material is that it is probably a little too esoteric for a generalist encyclopedia page. N-HH talk/edits 15:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, no. This whole issue published by Science (journal), including the publication by Motyl must be used on this page. There is absolutely no reason to dismiss mainstream academic research. My very best wishes (talk) 17:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not being "dismissed", people are just querying – with good reason – whether it is an "excellent", "mainstream" or definitive source that simply "must" be used on this page. Even if it is used, the question is how exactly, especially in terms of placing what Motyl and others might believe and say in a broader context and with any countervailing opinions. Nor, as it happens, is it "published by" the journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. It appears to be a volume of Communist and Post-Communist Studies, which happens to be available via a database called "ScienceDirect". N-HH talk/edits 18:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- In addition, you only have to read the introduction to the volume to see where it is coming from, when it talks of a "misplaced hope" that Russia was "in transition to a system that would come to eventually resemble Western democratic market economies"; and for an acknowledgement that the "Putin as fascist" theory specifically is not only very much not "mainstream" but not even being explicitly argued: "Putin's political system could evolve into what, still only a minority of scholars such as Motyl, 2007, Motyl, 2010 and Motyl [sic], 2016 argue increasingly resembles a fascist system". N-HH talk/edits 18:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, this is ScienceDirect, well known for publishing main stream academic research. Yes, these sources can and possibly should be used. Yes, a lot of info from the publications (there are several of them) is relevant to this page. This is all. No judgement what exactly should be included at the moment. BTW, the comparisons with other historical figures are abundant in publications. This is not just a slur, as might be with respect to some other politicians. Such comparisons are based on historical analogies with Germany before WWII and made by respected historians (as in this issue). This is actually a common place. Nothing special. My very best wishes (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- ScienceDirect.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Criticism of Motyl
I have found several scholarly sources that led me to cast doubt on assertion that Motyl is a reliable author in this regard. I quoted some above, but I think it is best to list them.
- Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe, Universität Hamburg; Per Anders Rudling, Universität Greifswald.
Review of Krytyka. Hefte 3-4; 7-8; 9-10 [17] "For his “correction” of Snyder Rusnachenko relies on Alexander Motyl, who since the 1980s has been an active denier of the fascist nature of the OUN (no. 9-10, p. 7)"
- The Carl Beck Papers in Russian & East European Studies Number 2107, Per A. Rudling The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust:
A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths[18] "Andreas Umland has taken Motyl to task over his use of this terminology. “If we would apply Motyl’s loose conceptualization of fascism to contemporary world history, we might fi nd so many ‘fascisms’ that the term would lose much of its heuristic and communicative value. . . . Motyl’s comment is in so far unconstructive as he deprives researchers of Russian nationalism of an important analytic tool.”
"Motyl elegantly, and implicitly, divorces the OUN from its ideological kin—the Ustaše, the Hlinka Guard, Mussolini’s Fascists, and Hitler’s National Socialists. Referring to Ukrainian Nazi collaborators would be impossible twice over, according to this line of reasoning" "While Motyl’s stringent criteria for fascism disqualifi es the OUN, he defines contemporary Russia as an “unconsolidated fascist state.”243 He presents himself as “a long-time critic of the Bandera movement,”244 yet his denial of the OUN’s fascism and collaboration has become an important component of the narrative of diaspora nationalists and pro-OUN intellectuals"
"By arguing that the involvement of the OUN in the Holocaust was minimal Dr. Motyl is absolving it of its participation in the killing of Jews."
"Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist: Fascism, Genocide, and Cult"
by Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe page 522
""In his evaluation of Bandera and the Ukrainian nationalism, Motyl did not discuss such aspects as fascism in the OUN or the pogroms in 1941. He called the ethnic cleansing in 1943-1944 the "Ukrainian-Polish violence in Volhynia", which, in his view had nothing in common with the ethnic violence conducted by the Ustasa and should be compared instead to the violence of the "Irish nationalists against the British". In addition to romanticizing the OUN-UPA's violence...""
The above leads me to conclude that he definitely is not a reliable author on this topic.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
The problem with inserts like Fascism and this guy Motyl is its like the SOHR or Autism argument. It should not be happening on a bio page. Its Tabloid crap. With denials and such its also a hell of a lot of 'bytes' not needed. 'Less and succinct' not 'what if and maybes' is whats required. SaintAviator lets talk 22:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- A peer reviewed academic journal is not a tabloid, and a paper in said journal by an academic from Rutgers and Harvard is not "crap". It's a reliable source. Likewise, an organization that is extensively cited as reliable by numerous prestigious media outlets isn't "tabloid" or "blog" or "marginal". It's a reliable source. You can, if you wish to, always bring up this issue at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Motyl is a respected academic published in a high profile, mainstream academic source. Stop pushing the Motyl WP:BLPVIO envelope here, MyMoloboaccount. And, SaintAviator, this is by no means 'tabloid' in any shape or form: it is undoubtedly an RS. The only question is whether it is considered to be DUE or UNDUE for Putin's bio. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- HI Iryna Harpy I always like what you bring. You said with style what I tried to say. I'll try again. One can ref loads of stuff, but should we? My current focus is trimming as talked about. So IMO, No. Even though Motyl be a Saint. SaintAviator lets talk 23:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Motyl's not a saint, a motyl is a butterfly. Which I guess, if you want to get poetic about it, is like a flying saint. A... saint aviator.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- HI Iryna Harpy I always like what you bring. You said with style what I tried to say. I'll try again. One can ref loads of stuff, but should we? My current focus is trimming as talked about. So IMO, No. Even though Motyl be a Saint. SaintAviator lets talk 23:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It has been suggested this be bracketed until the biography has been dealt with to some extent; that's probably prudent. However, I'm a bit concerned to see a few misunderstandings here and a few hasty judgments. "Tabloid crap" is nonsense, and not just demeaning but also showing a lack of something: this article is by an academic, in a peer-reviewed publication. It cannot be dismissed as an "opinion piece" or whatever. That doesn't mean it should be included, but criticism of the publication, or criticism of the author as supposably a nationalist or ideologue of this or that kind, that's really neither here nor there. This publication is an RS, and there's little that can be done about that. It cannot be wished away, even if the author is a nationalist--the fact remains that the publication was peer-reviewed and published in a reputable journal.
As for "this is not what fascism means"--if the author was far off the mark it wouldn't have been published; again, that's really sort of all there is to it. If y'all want to leave this for later that's fine, but don't pretend this can be wished/whisked away as partisan or unreliable or fringe. And yes, please don't go around accusing Motyl of things that the BLP won't allow. Drmies (talk) 03:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Way to many pictures in this article....
According to the Wikipedia guideline WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE Images should have significance and direct relevance to the topic, and not be primarily decorative. Currently this article has too many pictures that have no relevance to Putin. What is the relevance of having a picture of one of his friends? So we can recognise his friends if we happen to be in the same street? Also to many pictures of Putin meeting foreign politicians. He is the president of Russia; the president of Russia meeting foreign politicians is not significant. I rather have somebody with more insight then me which pictures are significant to delete these unnecessary pictures. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:03, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree about the picture of his best friend. So I removed it. There was three photographs of anti-Putin protestors up until recently (I removed one of them). That's WP:UNDUE, especially considering how popular he is (80%+ approval rating). Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- His very high ranking are probably fake. This has been explained in a RFE/RL publication by a Russian politician that you just removed from the page [21]. Did you actually read the publication you removed? My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's not my underlining point, and I don't think that was ever relevant to the topic of discussion here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- RFE/RL is considered a reliable source? Athenean (talk) 04:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Did you read this publication? My very best wishes (talk) 04:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, I updated the ratings image through commons. It was outdated. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Did you read this publication? My very best wishes (talk) 04:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- RFE/RL is considered a reliable source? Athenean (talk) 04:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
That 80% number is outdated, but indeed there is no need for a lot of anti-Putin pictures in this Wikipedia article. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:21, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, I was actually referring to his approval ratings at the time of the protests. Yes, too many photographs of anti-Putin marches. It needs to be sorted out. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- What are these "anti-Putin photographs"? Can you please enumerate them? I'm not seeing any. Is the lighting bad in some of the portraits or something? Even before your recent extensive, and un-discussed changes (say, this version) all I can find is a SINGLE - as in one, the integer less than two and more than zero - photo of some anti-Putin demonstrators. Is that what you mean by "too many". Or do you just mean "even one is too many"? Not clear on this. If not... can you enumerate all these "too many anti-Putin photographs"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hmm, yes, I'm also trying to figure out what "anti-Putin photographs" are. The picture with Medvedev, who still has his full head of hair, maybe that one. Please, let's not get silly. Drmies (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: by anti-Putin photographs I meant the photographs of anti-Putin marches. But I could see why it can be interpreted as such, so I updated my comment to clarify that. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Ratings, polls, and assessments
A very bulky and fractured, oddly obscure at times section was adding considerable bytes so it was trimmed down. SaintAviator lets talk 07:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Family
Wordy trivial trimmed SaintAviator lets talk 07:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Autism
Is it true that Putin was diagnosed with a high-functioning form of autism? See here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11392680/Vladimir-Putin-suffers-from-Aspergers-syndrome-Pentagon-report-claims.html (217.42.27.219 (talk) 13:44, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
- See wp:Talk page guidelines: article talk pages are for discussions about the article, not about the subject. - DVdm (talk) 13:53, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Since this US study says he has actually been diagnosed with the condition it should be mentioned in the article. (217.42.27.219 (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
- I suggest you check with your local shrink as to how valid a "diagnosis by looking at videos" is. Collect (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- The study from 2008, which was based only on videos of Putin, claimed that the Russian president’s mother had a stroke whilst pregnant with him that left lasting damage. Collect (talk) 14:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Did his mother suffer a stroke? (217.42.27.219 (talk) 14:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
- No RS source for that claim either AFAICT - but would any reputable shrink perform medical diagnoses based on seeing videos of people? Collect (talk) 22:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Autism round three, Roflmao SaintAviator lets talk 22:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- No RS source for that claim either AFAICT - but would any reputable shrink perform medical diagnoses based on seeing videos of people? Collect (talk) 22:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Did his mother suffer a stroke? (217.42.27.219 (talk) 14:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
- The study from 2008, which was based only on videos of Putin, claimed that the Russian president’s mother had a stroke whilst pregnant with him that left lasting damage. Collect (talk) 14:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I suggest you check with your local shrink as to how valid a "diagnosis by looking at videos" is. Collect (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Economy
The lede understates the severity of Russia's long-term economic problems. The country is actually now being surpassed by Spain. (217.42.27.219 (talk) 14:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
- Alas - we are bound by Wikipedia policy to follow WP:RS, WP:BLP and WP:NPOV which leave no room at all for editors to insert what they "know" is "truth." Collect (talk) 14:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Spain's GDP is now larger than Russia's. (217.42.27.219 (talk) 14:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
Need reliable sources here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- This report from 2014 says Russia's economy was almost as small as Spain's: http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-economy-gdp-v-spain-2014-12 (217.42.27.219 (talk) 14:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC))
- Removed lead bloat / distraction re this. Leads very important, as suggested we fix it later, but not with stuff that does not belong there. At this trimming rate, we take on lead in a few days SaintAviator lets talk 22:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Suggestions
Under 200k--that's progress. Well done. I don't know about balance and that's not for me to judge; I hope everyone is equally happy or unhappy, and at any rate there's a ways to go. Let me ask you all, for example, why this article needs 11 paragraphs of "Economic, industrial, and energy policies". The first two paragraphs are quite general and strike me as appropriate, but the moment we hear "Putin obtained approval for a flat tax rate" it seems to me we're into head-of-state-gets-all-credit territory again, and I do not see how the cited sources support that he personally gets to take credit for it. And may I add that the Heritage Foundation is clearly a partisan source, that it's not peer-reviewed neutral academic etc., that its publications are meant to influence policy, and that the article cited doesn't focus on Putin or Russia at all? All these things should be pretty obvious.
Now, that National champions program, that seems Putin-appropriate. Y'all should cut the rest--all the great economy! stuff of that section, and the three terrible economy! paragraphs of the next section, "2014 downturn". BTW, that "greatest improvement in corruption" award, I suppose that's notable, but it is really thrown in there completely at random. I also think the "public image" sections should be shortened to just a few paragraphs, since there is a main article. Just a few pros and cons or whatever will do. And why so much detail on so many things, but not a nice, juicy putinism in a little quotebox? Happy editing, Drmies (talk) 04:05, 30 March 2016 (UTC)