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Currently all sources for "commodity status" are radical vegans
There are only three viable sources to begin with and only one of them, Francione, actually defines ethical veganism to be about commodity status, but in an other instance above he wrote that ethical veganism is about not wearing or using animal products. And in another instance he wrote that the commodity status is on the periphery of the debate. The other two merely define themselves as ethical vegans and also state that they oppose commodity status. In addition all three sources seem to be radical vegans even if they are academics. Completely biased and untrustworthy sources.
In addition, like Sammy wrote:
"Regarding Francione, he completely equates abolitionism with veganism and favors phasing pet species out of existence - I can provide numerous sources for that if you want."
Currently commodity status is completely unsourced in relation general veganism and has more to do with Abolitionism, Animal rights and Veganarchism.
My suggestion for the lead was:
"Veganism is both the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that opposes the exploitation and harming of animals. A follower of veganism is known as a vegan."
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:33, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, I'm trying to be as respectful as possible, but you've written a great deal on this talk page (over 100 edits in the past two days) and it's apparent you have a basic misunderstanding of the subject matter. You also seem to be suggesting that we Wikipedia editors are all veganarchists or otherwise radical vegans who are trying to hijack veganism from regular milk-drinking vegans. This makes the conversation very difficult. --Sammy1339 (talk) 03:45, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- That's just a bunch of untruths and a personal attack. You have nothing in your sleeve against the claims in this section so the only trick you can pull anymore is attack me personally. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:48, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'll refer to 4V's opinion from Talk:Veganism/Archive_12#Academic_sources_and_.22Property_status.22:
That's a wide range of different perspectives on different aspects of veganism, and I think it shows the current definition (and lede in general) is just fine. You're right that the "commodity" language only comes up in animal ethics literature, but almost all sources try to describe the associated philosophy in the definition, and it makes sense to use philosophers' words to describe the philosophy part.
--Sammy1339 (talk) 03:55, 1 February 2016 (UTC)- In your link provided only one of the 6 provided definitions mentioned commodity. Guess who wrote that definition: Gary Francione. In fact it is THE source I'm talking about. You are basing commodity on a single source.
- I'll refer to 4V's opinion from Talk:Veganism/Archive_12#Academic_sources_and_.22Property_status.22:
- That's just a bunch of untruths and a personal attack. You have nothing in your sleeve against the claims in this section so the only trick you can pull anymore is attack me personally. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:48, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Two of the ones in the link mention exploitation:
- Veganism is a practical philosophy oriented toward living without directly or indirectly harming or exploiting animals, and actively seeking to end that harm and exploitation where it exists. Veganism is most commonly associated with eschewing foods of animal origin.
- Vegans eat no animal products at all. While not eating meat, this also means excluding [etc etc]. Most also choose to avoid animal products in other areas of their lives….There are ethical, compassionate, environmental, and health reasons for veganism. Some people believe that all animal exploitation is wrong, no matter how well the animals are treated.
- --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:58, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Smulewicz-Zucker. --Sammy1339 (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing to do with veganism let alone definition of it. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:03, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- This one identifies vegan philosophy as being opposed to the "existing property status of animals" and argues against this position. --Sammy1339 (talk) 04:15, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't really. It identifies people having "personal vegan philosophies". Even added is "It must be realized by all that there is a key difference between personal philosophy and political reality." It doesn't identify all of veganism. And the person who wrote that bit is David Favre. Even though he disagrees and owns a farm with "sheep, chickens and the usual assortment of dogs and cats" he's still an animal rights activist... --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- In addition I found an interview featuring him with a clearer description of his view of veganism:
- This one identifies vegan philosophy as being opposed to the "existing property status of animals" and argues against this position. --Sammy1339 (talk) 04:15, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing to do with veganism let alone definition of it. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:03, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Smulewicz-Zucker. --Sammy1339 (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:58, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Veganism can create a lot of debate. When this topic comes out in the class how do you control this debate in a way that anybody will feel like is being judged, while at the same time respecting the different point of views of your students?
- If somebody brings it up I try to not let it become personal, and make it a public policy question and say that veganism is sometimes a very appropriate outcome and sometimes not. That really it’s not whether or not you’re a vegan, it’s what do you think about the killing of animals for food and the conditions under which the animals lived and died? That’s where there’s a great big schism, because some people believe that there should not be any killing of animals ever, regardless of their life. Other people believe that if animals have a good life, then the death might be justifiable or acceptable for purposes of eating. I asked the students when we do the chicken stuff, the question I always ask is well “do you know where that came from?” and if you don’t, aren’t you worried that bad things were imposed upon these animals to get them to the food store? And maybe you should be more selective in what you can do, and if you’re not maybe you shouldn’t eat that meat.
- To him veganism seems to be about not harming animals. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:50, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Mr Magoo and McBarker, I asked you to provide evidence to support your claim that the academics Helena Pedersen, Vasile Staescu, Gary Steiner, Gary Francione (who is explicitly contrasted with veganarchism in the only RS discussing both, your assertions notwithstanding), Kathryn Gillespie, Rosemary-Claire Collard, Gregory R. Smulewicz-Zucker, Rhoda Wilkie, and David N. Cassuto are "all radical vegans"; and to support your claim that "commodity status of animals" is "more partisan" than "animal exploitation". Could you please do that? FourViolas (talk) 20:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- I wrote Francione is an abolitionist. Veganism =/= abolitionism. And Pedersen & Vasile also state that they are vegan because they oppose capitalism. Pedersen&Vasile are absolutely, 100% confusing veganism with veganarchism. Kathryn Gillespie, Rosemary-Claire Collard, Gregory R. Smulewicz-Zucker, Rhoda Wilkie, and David N. Cassuto are about animal rights in general and not about veganism, like the mention above them says. I tried cutting them out because they are completely unusable as sources in this article. Steiner defines ethical veganism to be about products so that's about it for him. And lastly, you yourself provided definitions which were about exploitation. Did you have anything else? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Mass deletion/mass revert -apologies
I would like to explain a mass revert of mine yesterday.[1] I re-instated a mass deletion made by @TonyClarke:. I made 2 mistakes in my revert. First, I said Tony made deletions on the Talk Page; He had not - I apologise for making an incorrect statement. Perhaps we/I can get an admin to change that edit summary. Second, when I made the mass revert, I did this because I believed the mass deletion was all visible content related to a statement which is currently under (heated) discussion. I did not at the time understand much of this was invisible content/code deleted by Tony. I still don't know whether this deletion should be allowed to stand or not, but my own reasons for making the deletion were incorrect and I apologise for that. Tony, I am in no way trying to shift the blame to you here, but perhaps in the future, it might be easier for others if you made deletions of visible content and invisible content in two separate edits with 2 edit summaries. Just an idea. It might help editors like me who carry on working way past their bed-time! Sorry to all for any inconvenience.DrChrissy (talk) 13:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Hi DrChrissy, no need to apologize. Tony removed the sentence part that is the subject of the RfC, plus its academic sources, swapped it for a phrase used by the British Vegan Society, and added an embedded link to their website. He also removed the second paragraph of the lead, which explains that there are different kinds of veganism. None of what he removed was invisible. SarahSV (talk) 00:49, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Civil discussion - Let us do it!
30 days elapsed
17 threads created
Winston Churchill famously said 'To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war'. How about we try to discuss (yes again!) the issues that we disagree on?
- Aparently, he really said, 'Meeting jaw to jaw is better than war'. Same idea though. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Please, would one of those who insist on having the phrase 'commodity status of animals' in the lead tell me, in a sentence or two, what they intend that phrase to mean. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:55, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Viriditas, rather than adding a quote box would it not be easier to just anwer the question. It is a very simple question, obviously relevant to improving the article, to which I have never got a straight answer. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)As I wrote earlier:
- The boxed quotes I typed above show that most high-profile pro-vegan philosophers reject animals' status as property (=legal nonpersons under the control of legal persons). The sources in the footnote [2] show that some vegan philosphers more specifically object to animals' status as commodities (=property which can be bought and sold), and one RS argues that some who say the former really mean the latter. In any case they all agree on the latter. Therefore [vegan philosophy] can be described as
...an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals.
This is sufficient to define it as well, because (except for blanket anticapitalists), only ethical vegans have a philosophical objection to the fact that animals can be commercially traded.
- The boxed quotes I typed above show that most high-profile pro-vegan philosophers reject animals' status as property (=legal nonpersons under the control of legal persons). The sources in the footnote [2] show that some vegan philosphers more specifically object to animals' status as commodities (=property which can be bought and sold), and one RS argues that some who say the former really mean the latter. In any case they all agree on the latter. Therefore [vegan philosophy] can be described as
- The basic idea is this: commodity status of animals, as explained in the article you wanted to delete, refers to the fact that animals are objects of trade, things which can be bought and sold as property. People who try never to buy animal products on principle obviously have some kind of problem with animals as objects of trade; that's tautologically true.
- As has been discussed, we could get at very similar ideas by referring to an objection to "animal exploitation" instead. This would be easier to understand, but in my opinion has minor problems. It has less WEIGHT in the academic literature, being instead the preferred terminology of animal-rights advocacy groups; and, while the fact that animals are commodities is indisputably factual, per the UN and all kinds of people, the idea that they are "exploited" is more subjective, and the last thing we need here is an opportunity for more subjective disputes.
- Speaking of which, I must respectfully decline to continue conversation unless you begin, finally, to propose alternative wordings supported by adequately weighty RS. FourViolas (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- FourViolas, thank you for your response but it is not quite what I asked for, which I think is quite reasonable. I asked, 'in a sentence or two, what they intend that phrase to mean'.
- Are you saying that 'commodity status of animals' means simply that animals are 'objects of trade, things which can be bought and sold as property', or is there more to it than that?
- I see no reason for me to provide sources just to ask what the phrase is intended to mean. Once that is clear we can discuss possible alternatives, with sources. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:31, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
That quote box seems like it's uncivil to me. Sometimes things do indeed take a lot of discussion. This does not feel like Martin is being onerous or is filibustering, or drowning us in a sea of words for the sake of drowning us. It seems like it's a subject with many fine points and it's worth discussing. I do understand what Martin is getting at here. It seems like a good question for the purpose of collectively editing the article. SageRad (talk) 14:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think the problems with this conversation are amply illustrated by this edit of TonyClarke's, which inserted an inline external link to the Vegan Society website. Some vegans would prefer this article described their favorite brand of veganism, in the manner in which activist groups like to describe it. "Animal exploitation" is a common phrase. But if a group declares that it is for "the liberation of the Abkhazian people" (I made this phrase up) Wikipedia might describe it as an Abkhazian separatist group.
- The irony of this is that Martin has been promoting the completely unsupported and frankly silly idea that commodity status of animals is somehow vegan rhetoric. Actually it's the most neutral way to describe what vegans are opposed to. It describes exactly what's written in the stub linked, and no one was confused about its meaning before Martin told them they were.
- The necessity of using this phrase, and not the charged "exploitation" language, is further illustrated by Mr. Magoo's confusion. Vegans may know which practices are "exploitative," but non-vegans may not.
- I think this is clearly illustrated in the case of insects. Many vegans do not use honey, because they oppose the exploitation of honeybees. Yet I recall seeing Bruce Friedrich ask a packed room full of vegans how many ate only organic food. I believe one hand went up. How can all the no-honey vegans present justify consuming food made with insecticides, which kill mind-boggling numbers of insects every year? It makes no sense until you consider what vegans are actually about: the bees are used, deliberately, for human purposes; this is permitted because of their commodity status. For the same reason, vegans do not typically refrain from throwing things in the garbage because rodents are crushed in landfills. Commercial use of animals might be close to the mark, but vegans also oppose hunting, which is also covered by commodity status of animals (see Pierson v. Post.)
- That, and it's well supported by the sources, as has been explained at length. --Sammy1339 (talk) 15:38, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sammy, in order to make progress, all I and doing at this stage is to ask a question. What exactly is 'commodity status of animals' intended to mean. FourViolas has given me the answer, 'animals are objects of trade, things which can be bought and sold as property'. Is that what you take the phrase to mean? Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:50, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Martin Hogbin: I think it means exactly what it says in commodity status of animals, a stub which I'm sure you have already read. --Sammy1339 (talk) 15:52, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Are you saying that the meaning of the phrase is complex and that it cannot be described in one sentence? Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Martin Hogbin: I think it means exactly what it says in commodity status of animals, a stub which I'm sure you have already read. --Sammy1339 (talk) 15:52, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sammy, in order to make progress, all I and doing at this stage is to ask a question. What exactly is 'commodity status of animals' intended to mean. FourViolas has given me the answer, 'animals are objects of trade, things which can be bought and sold as property'. Is that what you take the phrase to mean? Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:50, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
I am really happy to see good dialog here. I see this as a complex and useful question. Because the phrase is linked to an article, that does provide a definition of the term. However, the term may have other connotations as plain language. Links are read as both text and as the content of the link, by various readers. Another example would be the use of the phrase fad diet (which was a real question at Paleolithic diet) -- wherein the words "fad diet" may differ to the common reader from what is defined in the article itself. I do hear in "commodity status of animals" mainly the property status and the selling and buying of animals, but i also do hear the objectification, you might say commodification, of animals as objects that can be used without ethical qualms (or with less than if they're viewed as beings). So... i hear both meanings in there, and i think both actually apply. I don't hear it as "vegan rhetoric" though i do hear it as sort of academic language in the philosophy of oppression field. Anyway, i like the term but i don't want to deny that there is more to the term than simply that animals are seen as property that can be bought and sold. There are implications about objectification in that, to me. SageRad (talk) 18:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- I recall that this was why prefer "commodity status" to "commodification". But to the extent that you feel it still carries connotations of objectification (which I don't hear in this phrase, personally) I wonder if this is POV or just fact. Aren't commodity animals literally objectified - "treated as an object or thing as though they were a possession of another"? The POV issues don't really concern whether we present this fact - animals are indeed "objectified", pretty unequivocally, I think - it has to do with perceptions of whether animals should be objectified. Nothing in the phrase "commodity status of animals" indicates anything for or against that proposition. (By the way, in case anyone accuses me of sneakiness, I did just now add animals to the definition of objectification, which is well-supported in the literature on human-animal relations.) --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:08, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- The phrase "commodity status of animals" is neutral. Most people agree with this status, and we've shown that academics who have nothing to do with veganism discuss animals as commodities. The United Nations discusses animals as commodities. The markets discuss animals as commodities. The fuss that has been generated here is fake. SarahSV (talk) 23:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- The phrase "commodity status of animals" is not the least bit neutral, neither is is clear in meaning. As Mr. Magoo and McBarker has pointed out above it is used almost exclusively in extreme animal rights literature. The UN does not ever use the term 'commodity status' it merely classifies animals as a type of commodity for shipping and similar purposes. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:51, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- The phrase "commodity status of animals" is neutral. Most people agree with this status, and we've shown that academics who have nothing to do with veganism discuss animals as commodities. The United Nations discusses animals as commodities. The markets discuss animals as commodities. The fuss that has been generated here is fake. SarahSV (talk) 23:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sammy, so why do we not say 'Veganism is both the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and rejection of the legal status of of most non-human animals as property, particularly farmed animals, working animals and animals in sport, and their use as objects of trade'? Then our readers would know what we mean. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:09, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Better still would be: 'Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet. Some vegans also reject the legal status of of most non-human animals as property, particularly farmed animals, working animals and animals in sport, and their use as objects of trade'? Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- I find it amazing how you can take so many different positions simultaneously. As we have been through many times, veganism is identified by many, many RS as a "philosophy" - a missing word in your solution, and your attempt to separate ethical veganism as though it were just a fringe group within regular veganism is, again, not supported. I'll return to an analogy I made before: how about we define Judaism by saying "Jews are an ethnic group. Some Jews also believe in God." It obfuscates the origin and the main point of the topic. I reiterate that most vegans are ethical vegans, veganism is often used synonymously with ethical veganism, and veganism had its origins in this "philosophy". --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Can we stick to discussing the article content please. How about 'Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet. Some vegans also have a philosophy that rejects legal status of of most non-human animals as property, particularly farmed animals, working animals and animals in sport, and their use as objects of trade'?
- We would, of course, need a good quality source that clearly indicates that vegans do have the stated philosophy.
- You also need a source to support your claim that, 'most vegans are ethical vegans' and that 'veganism is often used synonymously with ethical veganism'. If that is indeed true I find it somewhat puzzling that no major vegan orgaisation describes veganism that way. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- As for the first claim, this study found 82% of people following a vegan diet did so for ethical reasons, and this one found 81%. As for the second, here are a few papers discussing "veganism" which really only apply to ethical veganism: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. FourViolas (talk) 13:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- I will have a look at your sources but even 82% is not enough to write the article as if all vegans are ethical vegans. We could certainly say 'Most vegans also...' though. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- As for the first claim, this study found 82% of people following a vegan diet did so for ethical reasons, and this one found 81%. As for the second, here are a few papers discussing "veganism" which really only apply to ethical veganism: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. FourViolas (talk) 13:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Hoffman et al
I have had a quick look at the Hoffman paper. I agree that it is a good quality RS but I do not think it can be used to say that 82% of vegans object to the commodity status (as defined above) of animals. The problem is that, although the reasons for becoming vegan are given as 'ethical' it is not clear exactly what 'ethical' means. One example question that they asked was whether, ‘‘I eat this way for the animals’’. That is certainly an ethical reason but it is a far cry from a 'philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals' (as defined above). It could just be that the respondents objected to some intensive farming practices.
General discussion
Even with your interpretation, the one thing that the sources do make clear is that not all vegans are ethical vegans and not all vegans reject the so called 'commodity status of animals'. I am perfectly happy that vegans discuss amongst themselves exactly what proportion of vegans are what I will call 'full on ethical' and whether we should say 'Some vegans also...', 'A few vegans also...', or 'Most vegans also...'. What is clear though is that we cannot say, or imply, that all vegans have a philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals, as defined by Sammy above. Your own sources clearly show that that assertion is false. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:11, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- Don't misrepresent my opinion. I never said we should imply that "all" are ethical vegans. See my comparison to Judaism above.
- Please also read WP:REHASH and stop creating new sections and subsections to discuss the same issues. --Sammy1339 (talk) 15:22, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- I create subheadings to make editing easier and to separate topics.
- I agree that this seems to be a rehash. Remember my six encyclopedia definitions demonstrating that veganism should be defined as a practice and an associated philosophy? You accepted that conclusion above.[8] FourViolas (talk) 18:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- FourViolas, your own sources just above clearly show that all vegans are not ethical vegans. I have never accted that all vegans are ethical vegans. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sammy, I am not representing anything. The first sentence of this article implies that all vegans are ethical vegans, that is why I and many other want to change it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
So, what is wrong with, ' 'Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet. Most vegans also reject the legal status of of most non-human animals as property, particularly farmed animals, working animals and animals in sport, and their use as objects of trade'? It is your suggested wording from your chosen reliable sources but it also makes quite clear to the general reader exctly what is meant and does not suggest that all vegans are ethical vegans, which your own sources show to be the case. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:52, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Martin, the first sentence says that veganism is (emphasis added) "both [both denotes two things] the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals."
- That is, veganism is not just one kind of thing. It is at least two kinds of thing. The next paragraph goes into more detail. The first and second paragraphs should be read together.
- The puzzling thing is that when Sammy noticed that someone had inadvertently removed the word both, and he restored it, you removed it again, which suggests that you wanted the lead to imply that veganism was only one kind of thing.
- Ditto when an SPA removed "particularly in diet" and inserted the British Vegan Society definition, and Flyer reverted the SPA, you restored the SPA's version. The British Vegan Society are ethical vegans, and arguably represent a particularly purist version of it.
- Yet now you argue that you do not want the lead to represent only ethical veganism.
- If you want the first sentence to say that there are (broadly) two approaches to veganism – those who focus on avoiding animal products, particularly when it comes to food, and others who adhere to a broader philosophy about the status of animals – that is what it currently says. SarahSV (talk) 17:16, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- SV, as you will see from the response to the RfC the sentence, 'Vegamism is both the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals', is clearly ambiguous. You know what you mean to say but many readers understand it differently.
- What exactly do you object to in my wording? Not only is it perfectly and unabiguously clear that not all vegans are concerned about, 'the commodity status of animals' but it also explains, in clear and agreed language from sources what that phrase means. What possible objection could there be to that? Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:30, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Good source for "Becoming mainstream" section
I came across this NY Times article. I think it could be a good source for a little more development in the "Becoming mainstream" section. Wonder if others agree and if so, what's the main point to be gleaned from it for content? In general it supports the claim that veganism has become more attractive and has a better image of late. i also note that some in the article prefer to say "plant-oriented" to avoid "the V word". Many elements about veganism as a social phenom. SageRad (talk) 11:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- I cannot see how an article on a new cookbook supports the assertion that veganism is becoming mainstream. I am not sure what thate term means anyway. When does a minority activity become mainstream? Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- If the source is RS, it does not matter whether the subject matter is a cookbook or an article on the diet of astronauts. Is the author reliable? Is the publisher reliable? Those are the questions we should be asking. As for "When does a minority activity become mainstream?" - it become "mainstream" when we have an RS which says that. We might disagree, but to state that in a WP article we must provide an RS. It is not up to us as editors to decide these things.DrChrissy (talk) 16:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- There is much, much more in that article than a new cookbook. There is relevant cultural commentary. SageRad (talk) 16:31, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that there's encyclopedic information in the article. Leaving aside all the sparkly anecdotes, I'd suggest the main point is something like:
In recent years, proponents of veganism in America have promoted a welcoming and "glamorous" image to counter common impressions that veganism involves puritanical self-deprivation.
I don't think the source supports the stronger claim that these efforts have necessarily succeeded: "veganism has been edging into the mainstream for years now" and "nonvegans seem less likely to be dismissive" are the closest I can find to that, and that's not much to go on. FourViolas (talk) 21:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)- That sounds good to me. SageRad (talk) 15:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- ' In recent years, proponents of veganism in America have promoted a welcoming and "glamorous" image to counter common impressions that veganism involves puritanical self-deprivation', is strictly factual and would be fine with me. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:32, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Done then. FourViolas (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- FV, I hope you can see why I was happy to agree with that wording but strongly object to other things. That sentence was roughly of the form, 'Proponents of veganism say X, opponents of veganism say Y'. It does not try to state the vegan view in WP's voice. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- Done then. FourViolas (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- ' In recent years, proponents of veganism in America have promoted a welcoming and "glamorous" image to counter common impressions that veganism involves puritanical self-deprivation', is strictly factual and would be fine with me. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:32, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- That sounds good to me. SageRad (talk) 15:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that there's encyclopedic information in the article. Leaving aside all the sparkly anecdotes, I'd suggest the main point is something like: