Flyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs) |
ArnoldReinhold (talk | contribs) →Slate critique: reply |
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:If you want to note that the vulva is hairless in the caption, feel free. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 04:58, 27 April 2016 (UTC) |
:If you want to note that the vulva is hairless in the caption, feel free. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 04:58, 27 April 2016 (UTC) |
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[[User:Flyer22 Reborn]], thanks for pointing out the previous discussion. I'm less concerned about what images to show. My main issue with this article is based on our guideline [[WP:TECHNICAL]] (“Strive to make each part of every article as understandable as possible to the widest audience of readers who are likely to be interested in that material.” and in particular [[WP:EXPLAINLEAD]]: “Readers need to be able to tell what an article is about, and whether they are reading the correct article, even if they don't already know the topic in detail.“ |
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This article is based a technically correct but commonly misunderstood meaning of its title. Almost every english speaker old enough to read knows the word “vagina”. Far fewer know the word “vulva.” In common usage the former includes the later. Indeed, our article on the [[human penis]] states in the second paragraph “The penis and many of its associated structures are homologous to the [[vagina]] and its associated structures.” It never mentions “vulva.” As this article http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lets-clear-up-the-vagina-vs-vulva-debate-once-and-for-all_us_562f99dfe4b06317990f73c8 points out “Meaning shifts as people use words in new contexts, and those new usages sometimes become widely adopted.” |
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All I am suggesting is that the lede make crystal clear to non-technical readers what the article is and is not about. WP:TECHNICAL says simply linking the word “vulva” in the lede is not enough. I would suggest the following hatnote: |
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:''This article is about the largely internal female body part. For the external human female genitalia see [[vulva]]. For other uses, see [[Vagina (disambiguation)]].'' |
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or maybe |
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:''This article is about the birth canal. For the external female sex organs see [[vulva]]. For other uses, see [[Vagina (disambiguation)]].'' |
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Note that [[penis]] already has an extensive hat note. I don’t see any downside to adding clarity to our hatnote. |
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We already discuss the colloquial use of the word in the intro. I would move the last sentence of the intro to the end of the first paragraph, changing it to “[[Colloquialism|In common speech]], the word ''vagina'' is often used to include the vulva.” Usage correctness and its implications are best covered in the Etymology section, which may need other voices for balance. |
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I also think the lead for [[vulva]] could be improved but that discussion belongs on its talk page. This article gets a lot of traffic and so it is worth some effort to make its subject clear to everyone.—[[User:ArnoldReinhold|agr]] ([[User talk:ArnoldReinhold|talk]]) 16:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC) |
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Proposed acknowledgement of C-V distance and significance during penetrative sex
the distance between the clitoris tip and the vaginal canal has a significant impact on a womans ability to orgasm during penetrative sex according to Princess Marie Bonaparte's studies in the 1920's, women with shorter C-V distance (clitoris closer to the vaginal opening) are much better able to orgasm from penetrative sex alone without manually simulating the clitoris. ideally women would have small round vulvas with clitoris's right near the edge of the vaginal canal allowing both male and female to orgasm during penetrative sex
http://www.latimes.com/health/la-hew-ordistance11feb11-story.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/09/g-spot-vaginal-orgasm-myth_n_5947930.html
The5thForce (talk) 10:44, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- update: a more in depth discussion about C-V distance (with additional sources) and its potential implications has occured here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Flyer22_Reborn/Archive_21#C-V_distance.2C_this_is_right_up_your_alley The5thForce (talk) 19:12, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Is the "Edit" option for sections currently not showing up for anyone else?
It's currently not showing up for me at this article. Instead, the "Edit" option at the top of the article is still there, and I see an "[edit on Wikidata]" option in the infobox. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:26, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Note: The Edit option for sections reappeared for me after I made this edit (or seemingly after that edit). So everything's back to normal. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
The "[edit on Wikidata]" option wasn't working for me at the time either (an error message would show up), but it now is. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Article name
Please change this article's name to human vagina. Like the article human penis. Or do animals have no vagina? Or must vagina be considered human per definition? Then why not the penis. 2001:1C06:504:3300:4A5B:39FF:FEEF:A18D (talk) 22:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- See Talk:Vagina/Archive 5#Human-centric. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:59, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, if we care about consistency I'd rather see the penis article put back as it was to match the naming here. --Nigelj (talk) 07:57, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Concerning the photo
The model on this photo has removed body hair. Please either make a note about that, or remove the note about "removed body hair" for the penis photo. Be consistent please! 2001:1C06:504:3300:4A5B:39FF:FEEF:A18D (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would hate to think there was some confused young person somewhere checking online if all the hair growing around their genitals is normal, and we didn't help make it clear that it is, and that these photos show an altered state. That applies to both sexes. --Nigelj (talk) 08:03, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Slate critique
Slate currently has an article Why Are More and More Teen Girls Getting Cosmetic Genital Surgery?[1] that comments on our article's lack of representative imagery of the human female external genetillia:
Even when a girl looks outside the realm of porn for clues about her place on the labial spectrum, she’ll probably find only a narrow selection of vulvas to compare with her own. In 2014, Slate asked Vagina author Naomi Wolf to analyze the Wikipedia entry for vagina. “Why is there only one image?” she wondered. “I’ve never seen a labia like that. Not outside of porn. It’s not showing a true range.” Indeed, the entry’s featured photo is a completely shaven pubic area with a barely there labia minora and a small clitoris—the size and shape preferred by porn films and increasingly desired by teen girls (many of whose labia are well within the normal range) who ask their doctors for genital modification. (The Wikipedia entry for vulva, a lesser-understood term that gets far fewer views than vagina on the site, features a tremendous collage of labial and clitoral configurations.) Meanwhile, the penis entry features an entire paragraph on size range in the header and a dedicated section further down the page.
Our article does note at the end of the intro "In common speech, the word vagina is often incorrectly used to refer to the vulva, which can impact knowledge of the female genitalia." But many readers won't get that far and may also miss the vulva link that occurs earlier. A couple of possibilities i see for improvement include:
- Moving the last comment earlier in the intro, perhaps with a live link
- adding a hat note
- Adding a note to the main caption,perhaps including the hairless issue discussed above.
- Including more images in this article.
Any other ideas?--agr (talk) 00:56, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- ArnoldReinhold (agr), we addressed Naomi Wolf commenting on this article before, back when this article was drastically different than it is now. See Talk:Vagina/Archive 5#Article reviewed in media. When it comes to images, back then I stated, " As for the [lead] image, yes, see what is currently stated above on this talk page about that (if you haven't already) and this removed observation/threat by an IP; some people think that it's a prepubescent child porn image (I don't because, with regard to that image, I see what clearly appears to be skin that used to contain hair and what looks like razor bumps areas). [...] It is a matter of selecting good vagina images from WP:Commons (by 'good,' I mean the quality of the image and images focusing on the vagina instead of on all of the female genitalia and buttocks); once that is done, they can go in an Additional images section, per Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Anatomy. There used to be an Additional images section in this article; I'm not sure how it got removed. [...] Also, I haven't yet read Wolf's book on the vagina, but judging by the criticism it has received (whether mostly from feminists or not), and that she is not an anatomist, sexologist or sex educator, I won't be putting much stock into her views with regard to the vagina. [...] About the images aspect again, just in case anyone thinks that I am stating that every additional image should be placed in the Additional images section, I'm not. The Additional images section should not be overpopulated anyway, per Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Anatomy. Of course there should be more than one image (including diagrams) of the vagina higher in the article (meaning not just in the Additional images body of the article). Once this article is significantly expanded in size, there will also be more room to do so without WP:Sandwiching images. However, we should look for images that clearly display the variation of the vagina; redundancy should be avoided. It's easier to display the variation of the penis, but the vagina is often obscured by the labia, which is why there are some images, like the current (and debated) lead image, where the vagina is being manually spread for view. Variation is more likely to be seen by the labia minora ('vaginal lips') in this case."
- In other words, showing different vaginas is different than showing different vulvas, and we need to be sure we are showing different vaginas if we are going to include more female genitalia images in this article. The images should not be of the vulva in general or redundant to what is already in the article. This article also already has enough images.
- As for the lead noting that the vagina is commonly confused with the vulva, that is a summary of what is lower in the article...per WP:Lead. I don't see how we can go into more detail on that in the lead without the lead recounting most of what is in the Etymology and definition section. And based on the level of importance of what should be noted in the lead of this anatomy article, I don't think it should be moved higher than where it is.
- As for making sure that readers get to the Vulva article; it is linked in the first sentence. So I see no need to link to the Vulva article via a WP:Hatnote.
- If you want to note that the vulva is hairless in the caption, feel free. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:58, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
User:Flyer22 Reborn, thanks for pointing out the previous discussion. I'm less concerned about what images to show. My main issue with this article is based on our guideline WP:TECHNICAL (“Strive to make each part of every article as understandable as possible to the widest audience of readers who are likely to be interested in that material.” and in particular WP:EXPLAINLEAD: “Readers need to be able to tell what an article is about, and whether they are reading the correct article, even if they don't already know the topic in detail.“
This article is based a technically correct but commonly misunderstood meaning of its title. Almost every english speaker old enough to read knows the word “vagina”. Far fewer know the word “vulva.” In common usage the former includes the later. Indeed, our article on the human penis states in the second paragraph “The penis and many of its associated structures are homologous to the vagina and its associated structures.” It never mentions “vulva.” As this article http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lets-clear-up-the-vagina-vs-vulva-debate-once-and-for-all_us_562f99dfe4b06317990f73c8 points out “Meaning shifts as people use words in new contexts, and those new usages sometimes become widely adopted.”
All I am suggesting is that the lede make crystal clear to non-technical readers what the article is and is not about. WP:TECHNICAL says simply linking the word “vulva” in the lede is not enough. I would suggest the following hatnote:
- This article is about the largely internal female body part. For the external human female genitalia see vulva. For other uses, see Vagina (disambiguation).
or maybe
- This article is about the birth canal. For the external female sex organs see vulva. For other uses, see Vagina (disambiguation).
Note that penis already has an extensive hat note. I don’t see any downside to adding clarity to our hatnote.
We already discuss the colloquial use of the word in the intro. I would move the last sentence of the intro to the end of the first paragraph, changing it to “In common speech, the word vagina is often used to include the vulva.” Usage correctness and its implications are best covered in the Etymology section, which may need other voices for balance.
I also think the lead for vulva could be improved but that discussion belongs on its talk page. This article gets a lot of traffic and so it is worth some effort to make its subject clear to everyone.—agr (talk) 16:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC) ___
References
- ^ [http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/04/26/why_is_cosmetic_genital_surgery_on_the_rise_among_teen_girls.html Why Are More and More Teen Girls Getting Cosmetic Genital Surgery? Christina Cauterucci, Slate, April 26, 2016