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*What I see is some revisions placing more emphasis on Lenin's purported use of the term, and then others claiming other coinages and usages. This is a classic example of a topic where information repeatedly conflicts, and also an article where it is a little difficult to place the correct weight on a particular part of the topic. It is important to represent all reliable sources. [[User:My name is not dave|My name is not dave]] ([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]) 08:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC) |
*What I see is some revisions placing more emphasis on Lenin's purported use of the term, and then others claiming other coinages and usages. This is a classic example of a topic where information repeatedly conflicts, and also an article where it is a little difficult to place the correct weight on a particular part of the topic. It is important to represent all reliable sources. [[User:My name is not dave|My name is not dave]] ([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]) 08:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC) |
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::I completely agree. Therefore, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Useful_idiot&diff=812058086&oldid=812056177 such edit] makes the page less WP:NPOV consistent by removing content sourced to multiple RS. In particular, phrase "The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union" ''in the lead'' refers to a single ''tertiary'' source, whereas there are multiple RS (removed during this edit) which tell exactly the opposite. This is very definition of a POV-pushing edit.[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 15:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC) |
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A latecomer to the discussion
I looked through and tentatively edited the article BEFORE seeing how much had been discused already here, on the Talk Page.
It's a key requirement, in writing about this elusive subject, to disentangle several related but separate issues (it is also rather important to know some Russian):
1. Did Lenin use or even invent this phrase? If he didn't write «полезные дураки», even in the missing letter to Klara Zetkin, why is the phrase so repeatedly attributed to him?
2. If the earliest usage in the West is immediately post-war, with one very striking Russian instance from 1941, then why has no one tracked the phrase through Stalin's work? Historically and psychologically, that seems a more probably context in some ways.
3. A third source, that no one has considered, apparently - though revelations in this quarter have appeared since the early 1990s - is the private, internal language of Communist Parties around the world. How did they discuss among themselves their occasional, always temporary, alliances with Social Democrats, Socialists and, latterly, the Peace Movement?
Despite Mr Upland's rejection of the example, the "Lenin quotation" about the West selling the Soviets the rope with which they themselves will later be strung up strikes me as a clear parallel with the simplification represented by the "useful idiot" controversy. Some would surely say, with approval, that these "pithy" quotations boost Lenin's reputation among those who admire his cunning and ruthlessness.
The Russian Reader website has recently promised to publish in translation the 1920s set of articles about Lenin's language by noted literary specialists and edited by Vladimir Mayakovsky.
I'm curious - was he really a great orator?
I never much enjoyed reading him, in Russian or in English.John Crowfoot (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks, John, for your comments. However, I think we need evidence. We can pontificate, postulate, prevaricate, and even procrastinate. But we need evidence. Sure, a lot of useless geniuses have said, decades after Lenin died, that he used the phrase, but none of them have provided proof. Maybe he said it in his sleep. Maybe he dreamed it. Maybe he said it in a language that has not yet been invented. Maybe he used semaphore in one of his speeches. Maybe he raised his eyebrow in a suggestive way. Maybe he transmitted it in Morse Code when he was using a urinal. Maybe aliens transmitted his message from Uranus. Or maybe he didn't say it. I don't know, I wasn't there, and Richard Nixon erased the tape. Maybe Bigfoot ate Nixon. Again, I wasn't there. Maybe the Loch Ness Monster ate Bigfoot and wiped its bottom with the US Constitution. I don't know. I wasn't a witness, despite those incriminating photos. Maybe President Trump's hair is a fuzzy logic bar code. I have never explored that possibility. I don't get paid enough moolah. Maybe the Loch Ness Monster was swallowed by a black hole that you were kind enough to bequeath to posterity. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But where's the evidence??? Set controls to the heart of Uranus.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:10, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
And someone has now put Lenin back at the top of this article as though the attribution is certain! That's not right.
The Safire article is good, but it's striking that it was written way back in 1987. Surely someone has tried again since then to find usage of the phrase (in English, Russian or German) before the Second World War, never mind a direct derivation from Vladimir Lenin (Ulyanov)?
FYI Jack Upland - the exchange between Lenin and Chicherin does contain some interesting conspiratorial instructions (translated below).
One rather innocent thought. Since everything good came from Lenin, and Stalin would rewrite his own works to suit the current situation, but showed a certain reluctance to touch his precedessor's immortal texts, it could be that the Soviet side also participated in giving the phrase an earlier origin and more illustrious source. I, for one, see NO conflict between the attitudes enshrined in this cynical phrase and the way Lenin thought, spoke and behaved.
John Crowfoot (talk) 03:07, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
The Lenin-Chicherin exchange of the early 1920s (quoted above, only in Russian) concerned the British Labour Party's proposal at the Genoa Conference to recognise Georgia's independence. It may give some indirect credence to two widely misattributed Lenin sayings, but to my mind the third paragraph opens with words that are just as pertinent:
"Next. Top Secret. It would suit us if the Genoa discussions broke down ... but not so that we get the blame. Think this over with L and Yoffe [L = Maxim Litvinov] and drop me a line. Of course, this must not be written down, even in classified documents. Return this letter to me and I'll burn it."
That document, however, was preserved and not burnt. John Crowfoot (talk) 03:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, we discussed this before. Sure, Lenin plotted to wreck the conference. However, the British Labour Party were not "useful idiots" for Lenin in the meaning of the phrase, rather they were a nuisance as the quote shows. Hence, this hardly seems relevant...--Jack Upland (talk) 11:52, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Lede
The lede mentions the Lenin theory for the origin of the term, but as the body of the article explains, there's no evidence for this theory actually being true. The Oxford English Dictionary, which I consider to be highly reliable, gives the earliest known usage of the term as coming from a NY Times article in 1948: "L'Umanita said the Communists would give the 'useful idiots' of the left-wing Socialist party the choice of merging with the Communist party or getting out."
. The lede shouldn't give so much prominence to a theory with so little evidence. The phrase appears to be a term used primarily in the West during the Cold War, and not to have originated from the Soviet Union. As the OED notes, "The phrase does not seem to reflect any expression used within the Soviet Union."
-Thucydides411 (talk) 18:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- Article says otherwise. Lede summarizes RS supported content in article. SPECIFICO talk 22:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't a source. You're welcome to fix problems in the body, but don't insert material that's directly contradicted by OED into the lede. I cited OED directly above - you can see it in green. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- Straw man. @BullRangifer: and @Sagecandor: and @Moscowamerican: cited RS in the article. SPECIFICO talk 07:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't a source. You're welcome to fix problems in the body, but don't insert material that's directly contradicted by OED into the lede. I cited OED directly above - you can see it in green. -Thucydides411 (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is the authority on English etymologies. It's much more authoritative than the similarly named, but very different Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms. The former is a major project to document the English language. The latter is a light-hearted work written by a single person. It may be a fun read, but when it's contradicted by the OED, it's almost certainly wrong. The OED says that:
- The phrase "useful idiot" is only documented from 1948 onwards, and
- The phrase doesn't correspond to anything used in the Soviet Union.
- The Lenin theory probably gets far too much space overall in this article. It's a dubious theory, and Lenin is almost certainly not the origin of the English phrase "useful idiot," which can only be documented from 1948 and didn't enter into wide usage until the mid-to-late 1950s. In other words, the Lenin theory is folk etymology, not scientific etymology. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:53, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is the authority on English etymologies. It's much more authoritative than the similarly named, but very different Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms. The former is a major project to document the English language. The latter is a light-hearted work written by a single person. It may be a fun read, but when it's contradicted by the OED, it's almost certainly wrong. The OED says that:
- Straw woman. The lede must summarize the article content. Find RS narrative that supports your POV. SPECIFICO talk 16:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- For the last time, the Oxford English Dictionary is my source. I don't even know what you mean by "straw man" here. What's the straw man I'm attacking? Just citing the name of a random fallacy doesn't mean you have a point. Now instead of stalking me on Wikipedia, go edit an article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:49, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- What you don't even know is irrelevant. What is relevant is WP guideline WP:LEDE. We are all responsible for knowing site policies and guidelines. Please see WP:LEDE and cut out the straw man arguments about your cherrypicked source that is at odds with the mainstream narrative in the article content. Once you've read the site guideline, perhaps you'll see why you should undo your insertion. SPECIFICO talk 21:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- For the last time, the Oxford English Dictionary is my source. I don't even know what you mean by "straw man" here. What's the straw man I'm attacking? Just citing the name of a random fallacy doesn't mean you have a point. Now instead of stalking me on Wikipedia, go edit an article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:49, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- Straw woman. The lede must summarize the article content. Find RS narrative that supports your POV. SPECIFICO talk 16:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
Actually, what I don't know is highly relevant. You see, there's this thing called language, and if you don't use it, other people don't know what's in your head. So if you just say the word "strawman" over and over again without explaining what you mean by it, then nobody but you will know what you're trying to say. In any case, pick some other article to disrupt. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
- I agree the OED should be cited saying that, "The phrase does not seem to reflect any expression used within the Soviet Union". I don't think it necessarily has to be in the lead. The OED is a reliable source, and this statement clearly fits in with the rest of the article. The phrase arose in the West in the 1940s, and doesn't seem to have any origin in the Soviet Bloc. I don't understand what the objection is. I think we need to mention Lenin, because it is famously attributed to him. In fact, the quotation probably wouldn't not have become famous if people had not attributed it to Lenin.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- In fact the expression was widely used in the Soviet Union. But this needs to be sourced of course. My very best wishes (talk) 22:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes. Some things are widely used but never put in writing (for good reason, e.g. the discussion on this page.) Moreover Safire the reformed Nixon-era pundit is not a scholar nor was he in on the diplomatic and intelligence circles that Spruille Braden inhabited during the post-WW2 period. SPECIFICO talk 23:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED says there was no corresponding phrase in use in the Soviet Union. As for Spruille Braden, I'm puzzled as to why you're holding him up as a reliable source for what Stalin said. He made the remark about Stalin once in a speech, while talking about people he (Braden) considered useful idiots. He didn't claim to have done any scholarship on the issue, and there's no indication he had any special knowledge about what Stalin said in private. Basically, you're saying that because one random person once attributed the phrase to Stalin, we should mention that attribution, regardless of the scholarship that says otherwise. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED is referring to published sources it may have accessed. Braden was at the highest levels of diplomacy and security clearance and has much more extensive knowledge of Stalin's internal communications. His conclusion was published and is RS, it is not a self-published after-dinner rumination or youtube meander and should not be misrepresented as mere speculation. SPECIFICO talk 01:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED says there was no corresponding phrase in use in the Soviet Union. As for Spruille Braden, I'm puzzled as to why you're holding him up as a reliable source for what Stalin said. He made the remark about Stalin once in a speech, while talking about people he (Braden) considered useful idiots. He didn't claim to have done any scholarship on the issue, and there's no indication he had any special knowledge about what Stalin said in private. Basically, you're saying that because one random person once attributed the phrase to Stalin, we should mention that attribution, regardless of the scholarship that says otherwise. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Do you have a source that makes any of those claims? Can you point to a source that says Braden was an expert on the internal dealings of the Kremlin? You're just making all of this up whole cloth. An American diplomat in Latin America once gave a speech in which he said, in passing, that Stalin called naïve liberals "useful idiots." You're building that up into some piece of scholarship by an expert on Stalin's private discussions. Really, just stop. You're turning this article into a battleground that it doesn't have to be. -Thucydides411 (talk) 05:47, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- I agree. You can't dismiss sources like the OED and the Library of Congress in favour of your own personal speculation.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- I believe that this concern has been fully addressed by @My very best wishes: in the thread at the bottom of this page "his sources...inconclusive", not to mention the Spruille Braden reference, so I believe we're ready to fix the lede. . SPECIFICO talk 17:59, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- No, it hasn't.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- I believe that this concern has been fully addressed by @My very best wishes: in the thread at the bottom of this page "his sources...inconclusive", not to mention the Spruille Braden reference, so I believe we're ready to fix the lede. . SPECIFICO talk 17:59, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- I agree. You can't dismiss sources like the OED and the Library of Congress in favour of your own personal speculation.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:55, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
"Cold War Usage" section
Since this term originated during the Cold War, there should be a section on "Cold War Usage." Currently, the article only discusses the origns of the terms and one example of modern usage. The term was used during the Cold War primarily by the political Right to attack liberals perceived as weak on Communism. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:16, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Popular Attributions
The term has been popularly attributed to Lenin, and sometimes to Stalin. These attributions are almost certainly erroneous, as the term "useful idiot" doesn't appear in any of Lenin or Stalin's writings, wasn't attributed to them during their lifetimes, and wasn't even used in the Soviet Union. The earliest documented usages of the phrase are by American publications discussing Cold-War Italian politics. The highly reputable Oxford English Dictionary gives a 1948 New York Times article on Italian politics as the first known publication to use the term "useful idiot," and notes that the term appears to have had no analog in the Soviet Union.
People misattribute quotations all the time. "As Lincoln once said, [insert something Lincoln never said]" is a common refrain. Just because various people introduce their usage of the word "useful idiot" by saying, "As Lenin used to say, [insert something Lenin is never known to have said]" or "As Stalin used to say, [insert something Stalin is never known to have said]," that doesn't mean that Wikipedia should repeat these misattributions. Spruille Braden said once used the phrase "useful idiots" in a speech and attributed the term to Stalin. Braden wasn't an expert on the Soviet Union, didn't present his scholarship on the origin of the term, and was almost certainly just repeating the popular misattributions of the term "useful idiot." It's not worth mention in the article every time some person introduces the phrase "useful idiot" with the popular misattribution.
What is worth mention in the article is simply the fact that the popular attributions to Lenin and Stalin exist, that reputable sources can find no evidence for those attributions, and that the earliest known usages of the term come from American publications discussing Italian post-War politics. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:08, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think the Braden sentence should go. I don't even know how reliable that citation is as it doesn't include a page number, and I can't find a reference to "useful idiots" via Google Books. Braden's book is a book of memoirs based on a speech. As you say, it's not a work of scholarship.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:05, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- I managed to track down the citation, although I don't have it handy now. The attribution to Stalin was just a throwaway line, mentioned in passing during a speech on a completely different topic. Braden didn't claim to have done any scholarship on the origin of the quote. It's entirely possible that Braden was simply confusing Lenin and Stalin, given that the phrase is more commonly misattributed to the former. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Well, it definitely shouldn't be in the article. We don't need a citation of every throwaway line that mentions the phrase.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Contemporary usage
There is widespread contemporary usage of this term with respect to the Russian interference in US politics and the Russians' American enablers. An editor has just removed mention of one such statement, despite WP:PUBLICFIGURE and despite the fact that the cited source is making the point that "useful idiot" is the most charitable term he could use, the alternatives presumably involving criminal intent. This well-sourced article text -- which reflects widespread and diverse other statements of the same analysis -- should be restored. If there are no other editors who disagree, I will do so. Otherwise, please open a WP:BLPN thread to test your interpretation of BLP vs. WP:KNOWNFACT. SPECIFICO talk 16:33, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- The "Contemporary usage" section should talk more generally about the modern usage of the term. If it just cites random usages of the term, it's no more than a trivia section. I haven't yet been able to find a source that gives a good overview of modern usage of the term, however. Having a "Cold War usage" section is just as or more important, though, since this terms originates from that time. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:21, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- The word "computer" dates from the early 20th century but contemporary usage is much more important. Same thing with useful idiots. There didn't used to be all that many of them, now they appear to be mainstream, according to RS sources, e.g. former heads of national intelligence agencies, major US press, and other notable individuals and organizations. Write whatever you think will improve the article. Positive contributions are needed here, not deletions of sourced content. SPECIFICO talk 19:42, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- Your removal of the well-sourced Stalin use is your 4th in just about 24 hours. I'm going to politiely ask you to reinstate that edit, in lieu of a user page warning. SPECIFICO talk 20:41, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- An individual case in which someone used the phrase "useful idiot" and then added on the mistaken attribution isn't notable. I've been trying to add good sourcing to this article, like the Oxford English Dictionary, and to cut out the extraneous trivia ("On May 1, 1970, so-and-so called so-and-so a useful idiot, and mistakenly attributed the phrase to Stalin/Lenin"). If you can find a good source that discusses use of the term "useful idiot" in general nowadays, that would be helpful. Random times someone has called someone else a "useful idiot" just clutter the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- I agree. We've been here before in this article, when it included a list of trivia. We need sources that talk about the phrase rather than just sources that use the phrase (of which there are many).--Jack Upland (talk) 07:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- An individual case in which someone used the phrase "useful idiot" and then added on the mistaken attribution isn't notable. I've been trying to add good sourcing to this article, like the Oxford English Dictionary, and to cut out the extraneous trivia ("On May 1, 1970, so-and-so called so-and-so a useful idiot, and mistakenly attributed the phrase to Stalin/Lenin"). If you can find a good source that discusses use of the term "useful idiot" in general nowadays, that would be helpful. Random times someone has called someone else a "useful idiot" just clutter the article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yup. Lots of people have used the phrase, and mistakenly added that it derives from Lenin or, sometimes, from Stalin. There are a lot of quotes floating around that are falsely attributed to various famous people, as the book "They Never Said It" documents. There are reliable secondary sources that specifically discuss the origin of "useful idiot" (the NY Times and Oxford English Dictionary are cited here already), and they say that the phrase cannot be traced to Lenin, and that there doesn't appear to have been a corresponding phrase in use in the Soviet Union. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Perhaps this should be rephrased to clarify that the term has been applied to a number of modern politicians (in certain specific context), but the term seem to be applied widely based on Google book search.My very best wishes (talk) 22:13, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh boy, a new dispute at a Sagecandor Special. My take is that The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union.
shouldn't be in the lede, but basically every disputed comment on the usage should be in the body. The fact that «while there are no reliable accounts that suggest Lenin or Stalin used the term (or its Russian translation), it has been widely attributed to them» is encyclopedically relevant, and the sources that attribute this to them should be mentioned in the appropriate section (but not the lede). power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- I don't see why there has to be a dispute here. The scholarship is pretty clear on the issue: there's no evidence supporting the popular attribution to Lenin, and the term appears to have its origins in the West during the Cold War, as a conservative epithet for liberals perceived as weak on Communism. I think the popular attribution to Lenin should be mentioned, maybe even in the lede, but the article should also note that the scholarship doesn't support that attribution, and that the earliest known usage of the term is in post-war articles about Italian politics. -Thucydides411 (talk) 01:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- As a general rule, the lede section of an article should say what the topic is, not what it is not. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:35, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think you're overcomplicating the issue. If we mention the attribution to Lenin, we should mention that this is not substantiated.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:34, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- As a general rule, the lede section of an article should say what the topic is, not what it is not. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:35, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
His reporting was inconclusive?
The article says:
- In a 1987 article for The New York Times, American journalist William Safire noted that a Library of Congress librarian was not able to find the phrase in Lenin's works, and his reporting on the matter was inconclusive.
His reporting on the matter was inconclusive. What does that mean? The book They Never Said It (p 76) cites the same article and concludes he never said it. What is inconclusive?--Jack Upland (talk) 07:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- Safire's reporting was only really inconclusive in as far as he wasn't able to find any evidence that Lenin ever talked about "useful idiots," and he Safire couldn't establish where exactly the phrase came from. What was clear from his reporting was that "useful idiot" (or an equivalent phrase in Russian) doesn't appear in any of Lenin's writings, and that there are no first-hand accounts of him having used the phrase. Safire was able to find a second-hand account where Lenin supposedly said something vaguely similar to "the capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them with," but couldn't find any such lead on "useful idiot." -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think the article should editorialise like that. Safire reports that the phrase couldn't be found in Lenin's writings. That's it.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:44, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- That's right. Safire was a journalist and amateur etymologist and this was the opinion of -- let's call him an informed dilettante. He was a notable writer and so it's OK to mention that he couldn't find printed use of the term. That's very different than proving that the term was not used by the Communists. SPECIFICO talk 01:41, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- Accordingly, let's get this weasel-worded UNDUE "The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union." out of the lede. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED is an excellent source. Stop this nonsense!--Jack Upland (talk) 08:29, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think the article should editorialise like that. Safire reports that the phrase couldn't be found in Lenin's writings. That's it.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:44, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
- If we are talking about tertiary sources, such as Oxford English Dictionary, one should use something more specialized on the subject. In particular, the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms (2008), tells on page 394 that "useful fool - a dupe of the Communists. Lenin's phrase for the shallow thinkers in the West whom the Communists manipulated. Also as useful idiot...". Now, looking at direct quotation here, there is no any doubts that Lenin and other Bolsheviks did call certain Western politicians "idiots" that are very useful for their communist cause (including another famous quotation about the "rope they will sell to us to hang them"). That's why this is widely attributed to Lenin and Radek. I do not see any problem with this. "A librarian was not able to find the phrase". And what does it prove? Apparently, he did very poor job, because it was there (the link to direct quotation above). My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- That ref is obviously fine. Apparently, this is something Lenin only said (and therefore attributed to him in other sources), but did not write in his official works. My very best wishes (talk) 18:52, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED is a reliable source. It's ridiculous to say that it's not. The quotation you link to has already been discussed, and doesn't use the phrase.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:19, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms is definitely an RS - I agree. And what does it tell? See here. My very best wishes (talk) 16:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- Now, speaking about that ref, it also qualify as RS, to source claim that someone could not find anything in his written works. But it should not be there. It is enough that he said it at some occasion and multiple RS written by other people attributed this to him. My very best wishes (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms is definitely an RS - I agree. And what does it tell? See here. My very best wishes (talk) 16:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED is a reliable source. It's ridiculous to say that it's not. The quotation you link to has already been discussed, and doesn't use the phrase.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:19, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED is a reliable sources which says that the phrase doesn't seem to have been used in the USSR. The Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms is just another source which attributes the phrase to Lenin. Sure you can add it to the others in the article, but what's the point? The question is how do people know Lenin said it if it isn't in any of his published works, or in the memoirs of someone who spoke to him etc??? In any case, this is purely original research. We go with the published sources, and that includes the OED and the NYT.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- You tell: "Sure you can add it [the source] to the others [other sources]] in the article". This is very definition of something to be described in multiple RS and being a majority [of sources] view. "how do people know"? It would be nice to know, but this not our business here to conduct any actual research. You tell it was not used in the USSR? No, I lived there, and it was used. Actually, these letters prove that at least the idea if not precise wording was used as early as 1920s. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: Actually, "
at least the idea if not precise wording was used as early as
" the 1600s in England. In the works of diplomat and author Sir William Temple (1628–1699), he uses the phrase, "They were other Mens Dupes, and did other Mens work" (I. 344, London 1731). Maybe we should include this as a first usage. -Darouet (talk) 19:51, 24 November 2017 (UTC)- If we had multiple source claiming that the expression "useful fool/idiot" came from Sir William Temple (as we have about Lenin), then your suggestion would be meaningful. But without such sources that would be your WP:OR, sorry. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: As discussed previously, the letters by Lenin do not prove the point. They do not use the phrase, and Henderson and Kerensky were not supporters of Lenin, so they can't be described as "useful idiots" in the sense described by this article. It is not significant that Lenin called other people "idiots". You say that we shouldn't do original research, but that's precisely what you're doing. You're digging into primary sources; you're citing your own personal experience; you're speculating about what Lenin might have said. There is no point in this.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- No, we do not do any WP:OR here. We simply quote Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms and other sources. This is all we do. This is reference work. My very best wishes (talk) 01:32, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- But Jack, the issue is whether WP can state categorically that the idea was not used in Russia, and this is clearly not supported by any RS and is in fact contradicted by many. Darouet, your bit is interesting if you have secondary RS discussion of this relating it broadly to the topic of this article, please share. SPECIFICO talk 23:19, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: Actually, "
- You tell: "Sure you can add it [the source] to the others [other sources]] in the article". This is very definition of something to be described in multiple RS and being a majority [of sources] view. "how do people know"? It would be nice to know, but this not our business here to conduct any actual research. You tell it was not used in the USSR? No, I lived there, and it was used. Actually, these letters prove that at least the idea if not precise wording was used as early as 1920s. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- The OED is a reliable sources which says that the phrase doesn't seem to have been used in the USSR. The Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms is just another source which attributes the phrase to Lenin. Sure you can add it to the others in the article, but what's the point? The question is how do people know Lenin said it if it isn't in any of his published works, or in the memoirs of someone who spoke to him etc??? In any case, this is purely original research. We go with the published sources, and that includes the OED and the NYT.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
WP:BRD
Given discussions above, I reverted page to the last stable version and included new section about modern usage. Please explain objections to the new section. And everyone is welcome to simply fix or expand this new section. My very best wishes (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, that was version which existed without changes from July to November. I am not telling this is "right version", but a number of changes made in November caused various objections, as clear from discussions above. So, please start from here and make further changes only per WP:Consensus. Thanks, My very best wishes (talk) 16:49, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- The revert was to a very recent version. It' disingenuous to claim "stable until November" when the reverts are to versions from last week. The stable version is the one without all the "current usage" nonsense while ignoring 80 years of constant usage. It's not a new term. --DHeyward (talk) 17:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- I am sorry, but why did you remove so much well sourced and relevant content? Why do you think that content should not be included? If you think that only "current usage" should not be included, why did you revert everything? It was precisely the purpose of my edit to restore valid content about "80 years of constant usage". My very best wishes (talk) 18:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- In my opinion, it's clear My very best wishes, that you reverted to the appropriate stable version for ongoing discussion. The subsequent edit was not helpful and removed stable valid content while reinstating the deprecated "never used in the Soviet" stuff that was initially edit-warred by a now-banned user. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- I am sorry, but why did you remove so much well sourced and relevant content? Why do you think that content should not be included? If you think that only "current usage" should not be included, why did you revert everything? It was precisely the purpose of my edit to restore valid content about "80 years of constant usage". My very best wishes (talk) 18:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- The revert was to a very recent version. It' disingenuous to claim "stable until November" when the reverts are to versions from last week. The stable version is the one without all the "current usage" nonsense while ignoring 80 years of constant usage. It's not a new term. --DHeyward (talk) 17:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- (parachuted in from IRC request) I can be of assistance for a third opinion if needed. My name is not dave (talk) 19:18, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- Hi, not Dave! What would you suggest? Normally, if we want to post an RfC about something (for example), we need to have a discussion to understand what the disagreement was about. This is needed to ask correct question on the RfC. But I do not even know why DHeyward made this revert. He said in edit summary: Uhh no, this is all being discussed. stop EW. What? What was the problem with this content that remained stable from July to November? He did not explain. This content looks pretty much sourced and relevant to me. My very best wishes (talk) 23:44, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- for the record: I requested full-protection due to the continuing edit war, but think it unlikely it will be applied; I also requested a third opinion on IRC. I do not plan to comment further on this topic until the current disputes are resolved. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:20, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- For the umpteenth time, the Oxford English Dictionary is a reliable source. It is not 'deprecated "never used in the Soviet" stuff that was initially edit-warred by a now-banned user'. How can we have a useful discussion if these claims keep being made? Also, the continued reference to the Lenin quotation that was dealt with in January 2016? The version that My very best wishes reverted the page to clearly favored a point of view — Lenin originated the phrase etc...--Jack Upland (talk) 23:47, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- If we have a disagreement about this, we need to keep last stable version of the page and post an RfC. But I would like to know opinion of user DHeyward because it was he who made these reverts. My very best wishes (talk) 23:55, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
- What I see is some revisions placing more emphasis on Lenin's purported use of the term, and then others claiming other coinages and usages. This is a classic example of a topic where information repeatedly conflicts, and also an article where it is a little difficult to place the correct weight on a particular part of the topic. It is important to represent all reliable sources. My name is not dave (talk) 08:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
- I completely agree. Therefore, such edit makes the page less WP:NPOV consistent by removing content sourced to multiple RS. In particular, phrase "The term does not appear to have been used within the Soviet Union" in the lead refers to a single tertiary source, whereas there are multiple RS (removed during this edit) which tell exactly the opposite. This is very definition of a POV-pushing edit.My very best wishes (talk) 15:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)