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:All your argueing but that is not the important thing. The section as it is or as Mooretwin proposes it is not good enough, I could write all that myself. There's no direct background such as direct influence of the Hunt report or progessing views of British Army commanders. These are the things that are the background of the UDR. It would be further interest, and the only step toward making what is currently in the section appearing relevant. Why does the section end tantalisingly? You should start of saying "The UDR was formed as a result of the Hunt Report" and then you can go on to say "Hunt Report" many times not just at the end. Also the words UDR and even Defence are missing for the section. Who the heck are all these people mentioned, "Says this" or "Says that"? Let's have it what is a Joseph Ruane, a Jennifer Todd, a Senia Paseta and a Bernadette Fitzgibbon please. I think not to cut out the Catholic viewpoint but to add the Protestant and British ones please rather than a load of opinions from figures we might not recognise. <font size="2" face="Impact">~ [[User:RTG|R]].[[User_Talk:RTG|T]].[[Special:Contributions/RTG|G]]</font> 10:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC) |
:All your argueing but that is not the important thing. The section as it is or as Mooretwin proposes it is not good enough, I could write all that myself. There's no direct background such as direct influence of the Hunt report or progessing views of British Army commanders. These are the things that are the background of the UDR. It would be further interest, and the only step toward making what is currently in the section appearing relevant. Why does the section end tantalisingly? You should start of saying "The UDR was formed as a result of the Hunt Report" and then you can go on to say "Hunt Report" many times not just at the end. Also the words UDR and even Defence are missing for the section. Who the heck are all these people mentioned, "Says this" or "Says that"? Let's have it what is a Joseph Ruane, a Jennifer Todd, a Senia Paseta and a Bernadette Fitzgibbon please. I think not to cut out the Catholic viewpoint but to add the Protestant and British ones please rather than a load of opinions from figures we might not recognise. <font size="2" face="Impact">~ [[User:RTG|R]].[[User_Talk:RTG|T]].[[Special:Contributions/RTG|G]]</font> 10:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC) |
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::Feel free to re-write. It would be most welcome. [[User:Mooretwin|Mooretwin]] ([[User talk:Mooretwin|talk]]) 01:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC) |
::Feel free to re-write. It would be most welcome. [[User:Mooretwin|Mooretwin]] ([[User talk:Mooretwin|talk]]) 01:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC) |
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==New Editor== |
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Hello, I'm new here and I'd like to edit this article. I can see it's been fairly contentious for a while and it looks like a reasonably balanced article as a result of all the interventions and argument but in my honest opinion it does need a little tweaking to tidy it up. |
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I'd also like to find a mentor because I know how emotional any discussion involving the Irish Troubles can be and I don't want anyone accusing me of being partisan. |
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I'd like to start by addressing two specific issues. The first is that the section called "IRA Military Campaign" seems to be a misnomer and should be changed to reflect the fact that the IRA's splinter groups were also involved and to include any information on attacks by Loyalist organisations (surely there must have been some?). Perhaps it could be retitled "Paramilitary Attacks on the UDR"? The other issue is that there seems to be a lot of sentences beginning with the words "John Potter says" or "Potter says that". I have the Potter book and it is clear that he is the official historian of this regiment, appointed by the British Ministry of Defence and that he had access to all documentation. Some of it must have been very sensitive because the official history has not been released by the Ministry of Defence but they did give himand his publisher the right to release the book after examining it and editing it so it should be taken as properly sourced and edited by official sources. Perhaps a section could be added about Potter which details his military experience, UDR experience, appointment as official historian and anything else which could be explanatory and helpful. In any case the references for each piece of information sourced to Potter should be sufficient to comply with Wikipedia rules and stop a reader becoming confused as to the source. Then the sentences can be properly written without constant reference to him. |
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I'd really appreciate any help, advice and/or comment from any interested person. This is a record of a fairly unique regiment in terms of British and Irish history and I believe the information on it should be given to interested readers in an informative way which doesn't display the opinions of any of the Irish factions, past or present. |
Revision as of 14:54, 13 October 2010
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This page under article probation
All edits to this page by all editors are now under 1RR. See the link above for details. SirFozzie (talk) 20:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
- For those not familiar with the concept, see WP:1RR: No more than one revert in a 24hr period is permitted (and anyone who waits 24hrs and 1 minute before making the same revert will not be looked upon favorably). Rockpocket 02:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Background
This section has been edited in contravention of consensus. The version that preceded the current version read as follows:
- Disbanding of the Ulster Special Constabulary or "B Specials" was one of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association during the late 1960s. [1] The B Specials were an all-Protestant reserve police force, , whose membership heavily overlapped with the Orange Order, an exclusively Protestant religious and political organisation with structural links to and overlapping membership of the ruling Ulster Unionist Party.[2][3] Together, the B Specials and the RUC were viewed by many nationalists as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.”[4] As the Troubles began in the late 1960s, the RUC and B Specials were said to have looked on or actively took part in attacks by loyalist mobs.[5]
- Following the 1969 Northern Ireland Riots policing in Northern Ireland was reviewed by the Hunt Report.
It now reads:
- According to Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd, the ethos of the Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian. The Northern Ireland civil rights campaign which began in the mid-1960s attempted to achieve reform by publicising, documenting, and lobbying for an end to abuses in areas such as housing, unfair electoral procedures, discrimination in employment and the Special Powers Act. [6] Their main demands had been for measures to bring an end to the religious discrimination, their catch-cry being ‘one-man, one-vote.' [7] The summer of 1968 then saw the first of a series of civil rights marches while in Britain, concern was raised at these reports of gerrymandering, job discrimination and triumphalist use of British national symbols. The security forces were and remained disproportionately Protestant and frequently sectarian. [8]
- Internationally, there was concern with civil and minority rights with Northern Ireland part of this international trend. The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association therefore secured much wider international and internal support than traditional nationalist protest. [9] According to the authors of Northern Ireland: 1921/2001 Political Forces and Social Classes, the one area which exemplified the formation of the northern state was the constitution of the security forces. They say that the strategy pursued by the Unionist middle class along with the British governments diplomatic strategies were responsible for the establishment of a sectarian-populist flavour in the Northern Ireland.[10] With the formation of the Northern state, the establishment of an independent paramilitary force had been anticipated. This populist Protestant self-assertiveness and official endorsement would shape the Catholic attitudes to both the security forces and the state.[11]
- Disbanding of the Ulster Special Constabulary or "B Specials" was therefore one of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. [12] The security forces membership heavily overlapped with the Orange Order, likewise the ruling Ulster Unionist Party,[13][14] and were therefore according to Constantine Fitzgibbon, the armed branch of the Order, which he says controlled the new mini-state.[15] Together, the B Specials and the RUC were viewed by many nationalists as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.” [16] Many in the RUC, and virtually all the B Specials, were according to Ruane and Todd, defenders of the Protestant community first, defenders of the protestant state second, and normal policemen third. The clashes between marchers and loyalists they say, forced them to take sides, undermining any claims they had to be normal policemen. [17] As the civil rights campaign began it was attack by loyalist mobs, the RUC and B Specials looked on or actively took part in the attacks. [18]
- Following the 1969 Northern Ireland Riots policing in Northern Ireland was reviewed by the Hunt Report.
The objections raised about the new text were as follows:
- Generally, it is a nationalist interpretation of events with no allowance given for alternative perspectives.
- Selection of most extreme citations available, and absence of alternative perspective is contrary to WP:NPOV, e.g. "the ethos of the Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian" and
- Includes narrative only about nationalist opposition to B Specials, but doesn't mention unionist support for B-Specials as counter to IRA. Narrative also expands into wider civil rights issue rather than on B Specials.
Mooretwin (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- This section has been edited in contravention of consensus? Please show us were this contravention of consensus is? Generally, it is your cry of nationalist interpretation which results in edit wars. So stop crying and add alternative perspectives, just make sure that they are both WP:V and WP:RS. Please support your POV that only the most extreme citations available were used or drop the nonsense. --Domer48'fenian' 08:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please show us were this contravention of consensus is? ... Well, the absence of consensus is the contravention of consensus. There was a dispute about this section which was not resolved. You got me banned, and while I was banned, you went ahead and edited the section without gaining consensus for the changes. Mooretwin (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Generally, it is your cry of nationalist interpretation which results in edit wars. ... WP rules require NPOV, therefore an exclusively nationalist interpretation does not comply with this. Failure to seek or agree to consensus leads to edit wars. On this occasion, I have attempted to start a broader discussion in order to preclude an edit war.
- So stop crying and add alternative perspectives, just make sure that they are both WP:V and WP:RS. Please support your POV that only the most extreme citations available were used or drop the nonsense. ... I shall when I get the time (Unlike others, I don't have endless time to devote to WP). In the meantime, I would hope that other editors might contribute so as to bring new perspectives in. Maybe a RfC is in order? Mooretwin (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
So there was no contravention of consensus! End of story and your nonsense. To suggest that Ruane, Todd, Ryder, Kearney, Fitzgibbon Collier, Sambanis, Bew, Gibbon, Patterson, Moloney, Dillon, Coogan, McKittrick & McVea are all extremists is idiotic drivel. Any and every reference you don't agree with is an exclusively nationalist interpretation. You in a juvenile whimper also say I got you banned? Don’t be ridiculous, you got yourself blocked. The defence of they made me do it does not work here or have you not noticed. So I’ll not be pandering to your contrived disputes. Provide referenced sources which challenge these authors. Your only back and causing trouble on articles, and to think I declined to edit this article while you were away says alot about WP:AGF. --Domer48'fenian' 16:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please read WP:NPA. I'll not respond to personal abuse. I think a RfC would be useful. Mooretwin (talk) 16:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Knock yourself out. RfC is useful, but with only "I don't like it" to go on, seems more like time wasting. Why not, like I suggested get yourself some conflicting sources and add them? If you consider my remarks describing your comments as juvenile and idiotic drivel as a personal attack, I'll withdraw them when you lend something useful to the discussion. If I had described you as idiotic and juvenile you may have had a point. --Domer48'fenian' 17:59, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- First, there was a contravention of consensus because there was no consensus for your changes. Second, I didn't suggest that Ruane, Todd, Ryder, Kearney, Fitzgibbon Collier, Sambanis, Bew, Gibbon, Patterson, Moloney, Dillon, Coogan, McKittrick & McVea are all extremists. Third, I didn't get myself banned: you chose to report me - I wouldn't have been banned otherwise. Fourth, I already said I would provide sources when I have the time. Mooretwin (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
93.97.194.138 (talk) 18:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC) I have corrected the title given to Roy hattersley in 1969. At that time he was Minister of State for defence, not Secretary of State. Minister was the number two position in the Defence Department. The post of Secretary of State was held by Denis Healey the 1964-1970 Labour government.throughout
- There was no consensus for the above text, which (as noted above):
- Generally, is a nationalist interpretation of events with no allowance given for alternative perspectives.
- Selects the most extreme citations available, and disregards alternative perspective, which is contrary to WP:NPOV, e.g. "the ethos of the Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian" and
- Includes narrative only about nationalist opposition to B Specials, but doesn't mention unionist support for B-Specials as counter to IRA.
- is as much about the wider civil rights issues as it is about the B Specials.
- I attempted to restore the previous text, which is adequate and balanced, but the editor who imposed the contentious text above has reverted. Mooretwin (talk) 20:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- There was no consensus for the above text, which (as noted above):
I suggest following dispute resolution: get a WP:3O, an WP:RFC, or post at WP:NPOVN. Note: it is misleading to describe a reversion to a prior, shorter version as "blanking"[1] - please don't do that. Rd232 talk 09:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've gone for an RfC - hope I've done it correctly. I'll also post a notice on the WP:NI page. Mooretwin (talk) 23:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
So this is where the party has moved to now the PIRA intro is sorted out. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
RfC - Background section
There is long-running dispute over the Background section of this article. Domer48 wishes to include a long section as follows:
- According to Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd, the ethos of the Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian. The Northern Ireland civil rights campaign which began in the mid-1960s attempted to achieve reform by publicising, documenting, and lobbying for an end to abuses in areas such as housing, unfair electoral procedures, discrimination in employment and the Special Powers Act. [19] Their main demands had been for measures to bring an end to the religious discrimination, their catch-cry being ‘one-man, one-vote.' [20] The summer of 1968 then saw the first of a series of civil rights marches while in Britain, concern was raised at these reports of gerrymandering, job discrimination and triumphalist use of British national symbols. The security forces were and remained disproportionately Protestant and frequently sectarian. [21]
- Internationally, there was concern with civil and minority rights with Northern Ireland part of this international trend. The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association therefore secured much wider international and internal support than traditional nationalist protest. [22] According to the authors of Northern Ireland: 1921/2001 Political Forces and Social Classes, the one area which exemplified the formation of the northern state was the constitution of the security forces. They say that the strategy pursued by the Unionist middle class along with the British governments diplomatic strategies were responsible for the establishment of a sectarian-populist flavour in the Northern Ireland.[23] With the formation of the Northern state, the establishment of an independent paramilitary force had been anticipated. This populist Protestant self-assertiveness and official endorsement would shape the Catholic attitudes to both the security forces and the state.[24]
- Disbanding of the Ulster Special Constabulary or "B Specials" was therefore one of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. [25] The security forces membership heavily overlapped with the Orange Order, likewise the ruling Ulster Unionist Party,[26][27] and were therefore according to Constantine Fitzgibbon, the armed branch of the Order, which he says controlled the new mini-state.[28] Together, the B Specials and the RUC were viewed by many nationalists as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.” [29] Many in the RUC, and virtually all the B Specials, were according to Ruane and Todd, defenders of the Protestant community first, defenders of the protestant state second, and normal policemen third. The clashes between marchers and loyalists they say, forced them to take sides, undermining any claims they had to be normal policemen. [30] As the civil rights campaign began it was attack by loyalist mobs, the RUC and B Specials looked on or actively took part in the attacks. [31]
- Following the 1969 Northern Ireland Riots policing in Northern Ireland was reviewed by the Hunt Report.
I object to this for reasons noted above, and prefer a shorter version as follows:
- Disbanding of the Ulster Special Constabulary or "B Specials" was one of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association during the late 1960s. [32] The B Specials were an all-Protestant reserve police force, , whose membership heavily overlapped with the Orange Order, an exclusively Protestant religious and political organisation with structural links to and overlapping membership of the ruling Ulster Unionist Party.[33][34] Together, the B Specials and the RUC were viewed by many nationalists as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.”[35] As the Troubles began in the late 1960s, the RUC and B Specials were said to have looked on or actively took part in attacks by loyalist mobs.[36]
- Following the 1969 Northern Ireland Riots policing in Northern Ireland was reviewed by the Hunt Report.
It has not been possible to reach a consensus, so other views are welcome. Mooretwin (talk) 23:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- There has been no long-running dispute over the Background section of this article. You have removed referenced text three times since 2 September, text that has been stable up until then. --Domer48'fenian' 00:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- No-one, other than you, ever consented to your text. I objected to it. Only because I got bored with the edit-warring and temporarily gave up has it been "stable". Wikipedia is not supposed to be a edit-war of attrition, where one editor "wins" by being more persistent and determined than another. It is supposed to be about collaboration and consensus. It is clear that the views of other editors are required here. Mooretwin (talk) 09:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
There has been no long-running dispute over the Background section of this article. You have attempted to remove information which you simply don't like. While some editors may dislike certain kinds of information, that alone isn't enough by itself for something to be deleted.--Domer48'fenian' 13:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- As noted above, the article would benefit from the contribution of other editors. Your preferred text is, in my view, flawed for the reasons noted above and was inserted without consensus. You welcomed my suggestion for a RfC earlier, so I'm not sure why you are complaining now. Mooretwin (talk) 14:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I have previously listed my objections to the text you eventually inserted as a fait accompli largely over what seems to me to be rather selective treatment of sources. Unlike Morretwin, however, I think the main issue is taht there is insufficient context to allow people to understand the issues that were at stake at the time. The text wet right through a mediation process, and there was never susbtantive agreemtn on what it should be even at the end of that. David Underdown (talk) 14:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Generally, is a nationalist interpretation of events with no allowance given for alternative perspectives. Complete nonsense, backed up with nothing to support claims.
- Selects the most extreme citations available, and disregards alternative perspective, which is contrary to WP:NPOV, e.g. "the ethos of the Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian" Apart from the assumption of bad fait which I’ll ignore for now there is nothing stopping anyone from putting in alternative opinions. However, there is none to date that I have found which challenge or contradict them.
- Includes narrative only about nationalist opposition to B Specials, but doesn't mention unionist support for B-Specials as counter to IRA. The section does give the Unionist position on attitudes to both the security forces and the state.
- is as much about the wider civil rights issues as it is about the B Specials. The civil rights issues were as much about the security forces and the state as they were about the wider civil rights issues.
In May Mooretwin you said that only the most extreme citations available were used and said you would provide sources to support this, were are they?
As with the previous assumption of bad fait, the accusation of selective treatment of sources will be ignored, reminding editors that personal attacks are not considered to be alternatives in the absence of an alternative sources. The the suggestion of insufficient context is one area I am more than happy to address. By suggesting that there is insufficient context means expanding on what is there already not removing information which attempts to give context. --Domer48'fenian' 15:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- As Domer points out if Mooretwin has sources that can be used to counter any of the reliable sources used here then he is welcome to add them I don't like it is not a reason to start an RfC. BigDunc 18:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- If more sources were provided and more material, the section would get even bigger. This is an article about the UDR: not about the civil rights movement or the history of Northern Ireland. We need a basic background section, written from NPOV - not with the most extreme assessments available to one editor. Mooretwin (talk) 23:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
While your canvassing is unhelpful [2][3], it does illustrate the fact quite well that in the absence of a valid arguement you must do it. However, the to suggest bad faith of editors should stop. If this is the type of situation you wish to create, it will be very unhelpful. Now you opened a RfC and still insist on edit warring, making the same accusations again, while still not providing the sources you said you would. --Domer48'fenian' 09:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- I came across this page on the RfC page. I am very wary of stepping into this tiger cage as I am not an expert in this area. However, I feel that a couple of general comments can be made, which may (or may not) prove helpful.
- A background section is only useful if it summarises the key bits of information the reader needs to understand the rest of the article. I don't think this background section manages this. Primarily I think it fails because it needs to put the UDR into the context of The Troubles as a whole. It does mention the NICRA (which it Wikilinks twice), but needs to explain how the UDR contributes to the long-running distrust between communities. A "Main article:" tag would be useful here.
- A casual, and non-involved reader may easily be confused with the way the background section is written, in particular the first sentence which is very bold and provocative, but then is not fully explained. The opinion of Ruane and Todd should be put into some sort of context; is it an opinion of a consensus of critics, or is it one held by the majority, or even a significant minority (see WP:DUE)? A much more powerful way of using this citation would be to use it to explain what the opinions about the "northern state" were, say by the supporters of the NICRA, (assuming the origninal text supports such a use). In other words, use the information to support the text rather than being a point in itself.
- I'm aware that there is much controversy over events in Northern Ireland, and I am wanting to avoid offence both intentional and unintentional, but I'm not clear whether the opinions of all sides are being explained fully here. Mentioning authors in the text without context does limit their usefulness to the uninformed reader. Similarly it should be made clear which explanations or opinions of events, systems, organisations and governments are supported by a majority, and which are not (again WP:DUE should be a guide here.
- Best of luck! Major Bloodnok (talk) 22:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input. What do you think of the alternative text?:
- Disbanding of the Ulster Special Constabulary or "B Specials" was one of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association during the late 1960s. [37] The B Specials were an all-Protestant reserve police force, , whose membership heavily overlapped with the Orange Order, an exclusively Protestant religious and political organisation with structural links to and overlapping membership of the ruling Ulster Unionist Party.[38][39] Together, the B Specials and the RUC were viewed by many nationalists as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.”[40] As the Troubles began in the late 1960s, the RUC and B Specials were said to have looked on or actively took part in attacks by loyalist mobs.[41]
- Following the 1969 Northern Ireland Riots policing in Northern Ireland was reviewed by the Hunt Report.
Mooretwin (talk) 22:43, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- There is merit in it; the text seems straightforward and to the point. I think it can go further to put the UDR more into the context of events and the history of Northern Ireland (the current version mentions international pressure and fleshes out some of the grievances from one side). I don't think either version is there yet; try to think of what an otherwise uninformed reader would need to have explained in order for them to understand the article.
- I do not have enough expertise in the topic, or knowledge of the sources, to be able to critique them thoroughly.Major Bloodnok (talk) 07:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Well lets look at the facts as they stand:
- The Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian. This can be supported by quite a number of sources which can be added if required. If there are any sources which challange this they should be added. I have looked, and can't find them.
- The unambiguous sectarian nature of the state gave rise to the Northern Ireland civil rights campaign, which in addition to addressing the sectarian based abuses in areas such as housing, unfair electoral procedures, discrimination in employment, the Special Powers Act, gerrymandering, job discrimination and triumphalist use of British national symbols, the police were and remained disproportionately Protestant and frequently sectarian.
- With the formation of the Northern state, the establishment of an independent paramilitary force had been anticipated. The constitution of a sectarian security force was the one area which exemplified the formation of the northern state, and it's official endorsement would shape the Catholic attitudes to both the security forces and the state. Natural then than the B Specials and the RUC were viewed by nationalists as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.”
- It is obvious also that the Disbanding of the Ulster Special Constabulary or "B Specials" was therefore one of the demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. Likewise the responce of the state towards the civil rights campaign which began to be attack by loyalist mobs, with the RUC and B Specials looking on or actively taking part in the attacks.
What I think is missing possibly is, more context on abuses in areas such as housing for example. To give a Nationalist a house, was to give them a vote, therefore depriving them of political power was a must. For those who had a vote gerrymandering them out of it was the order of the day. This would all highlight the attitude of the Nationalist community to the state, and the state forces there to uphold it. When we look at the abuses carried out by the B Specials to then find this same group transfare wholesale to the UDR Nationalists knew exactly what to expect from the new force. Now this is all open to challange, so alternative views with sources would be welcome. --Domer48'fenian' 08:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid an article about the UDR is not an appropriate article to be discussing housing, and especially a strident and provocative (as acknowledged above) analysis, which the author admits is "open to challenge". This is largely the problem with the current background section, which was imposed without consensus, and continues to be imposed each time the new text is reverted.
- With regard to your other points, the shorter text already explicitly states that disbanding the USC was a civil rights demand, and also that the "Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment"! Mooretwin (talk) 10:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Please, I don't admit that the text is "open to challenge" it's a statement of fact. Now you indicated a number of times that you would provide sources which challange the current text, were is it? Now on the wider point, to understand the attitude of Nationalists to the establishment and actions of the UDR we must provide the context for it. Were Nationalists justified in their attitude towards the UDR, was there a valid basis for it? If there was a valid basis readers need to be aware of it. --Domer48'fenian' 10:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- The background section should explain what the attitude of the Nationalists were to the establishment as Domer48'fenian' has said, and I think in large part that is what is evident from the longer version. I think there are neater ways of writting it, but the overall thrust of the argument is obvious. I think the main part missing is any sort of explanation of why from their own POV the establishent (as its described) did these things (their view of the Nationalist community for example). If there are significant debates about scope, scale and direction of policy by the authorities then that should be explained too. If these two sides can be summarised then I think that would improve the section as it appears to be missing from either version.
- The other issue is of course how much detail to put. Examples for sure, but the reader should be directed elsewhere for an in depth discussion.
- Again - I intend no offence; if i have not mentioned important sections of the community in this analysis it is an inadvertent omission rather than anything more sinister.Major Bloodnok (talk) 11:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- The shorter text already does all that. It says that USC disbandment was a civil rights demand. It says the B Specials were all-Protestant and had overlapping OO membership, which in turn overlapped with the Unionist Party. It says nationalists viewed them as the “Protestant armed wing of the Protestant political establishment.” It says they were said to have looked on or actively took part in attacks by loyalist mobs. That seems like a pretty comprehensive explanation of why nationalists may have been justified in their attitude. Mooretwin (talk) 11:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
So what your saying is not that it lacks context, but in fact has too much context? Why was USC disbandment a civil rights demand? Why were the B Specials an all-Protestant force? Why would overlapping Orange Order membership be an issue? Why is overlapped with the Unionist Party, the Orange Order and the UDR not an issue worth mentioning? Why was there one party government? Reasonable questions to ask in my opinion, and questions a reader not aware of the issue to ask? --Domer48'fenian' 11:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't say that it lacked context. The objections are noted above. One could continue to add background ad infinitum by arguing that the reader may not understand everything, but this is an article about the UDR, not the civil rights movement, not a history of Northern Ireland. The reader can link to articles about civil rights, Orange Order, the Troubles, etc.
- In the shorter text, it actually - like the long one - also lacks a unionist perspective, which ought to be added. Mooretwin (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I have no intension of adding ad infinitum to the section, I was responding to two editors who suggested that it need more context. While I'm of the opinion that it covers it pretty well and gives a short overview, I'm open to suggestions if editors feel that it needs more. Your saying now that it does not lacked context, just that it lacks a unionist perspective, which ought to be added. I have a number of times now asked you to provide the sources which challange the text, which you said you would, obviously providing a unionist perspective and you have yet to do so. You keep saying this is an article about the UDR and not about the civil rights movement and I agree. This article only deals with the civil rights movement in the context of the establishment of the UDR and Nationalist attitudes to it in a short summary style. All editors here have said it needs context, to date your the only one suggesting removing clarifying context. Your proposed text provides hardly any and I'd suggest you offer an alternative proposal or expand on your current suggestion. --Domer48'fenian' 12:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
- The required context, as far as I can see, is that getting rid of the Specials was one of the civil rights demands, and the reasons for this. This context is provided in the short text. An additional line to say that unionists thought the Specials were OK would be useful.
- Your long text is written from a nationalist POV:
- It uses “provocative language”, by quoting the most strident assessments of NI available – “unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian”. If such an overall assessment of NI is necessary (which I do not believe), it would be preferable to have a more moderate one. You also wheel out your old favourite, Constantine Fitzgibbon, who provides the most strident criticism available of the Specials.
- It also goes beyond the issue of the Specials, and takes the opportunity to talk at some length about housing and the franchise –. You even want to add more in about housing!
Mooretwin (talk) 12:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, civility cost nothing and if you must revert to your personal attacks discussion is pointless. I've offered reasonable suggestions, and can do not more. If you wish to continue to discuss the issue avoide personal attacks on editors. --Domer48'fenian' 12:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
This RfC appears not to have worked as Domer48 is unwilling to budge on his imposed text. What is to be done, then - continual edit-warring, or give up and let Domer48 have his way? Neither is in the spirit of Wikipedia. What about 3rd opinion or mediation? Mooretwin (talk) 16:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
- Comment (from an uninvolved Englishman): the presetn text shows an excessively strong Nationalist (or even Republican) POV. I presume the quotations are accurate, but they need to be balanced by statements from Unionist authors emphasising the role that they were regarded as having by the Stormont government, which (I think) only deployed them when there was civil unrest. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Peter for your comments. Before we talk about "strong Nationalist (or even Republican) POV" we would first have to establish that the authors are or have strong Nationalist (or even Republican) views. While I'd welcome alternative views, I would not be prompted to describe them as statements from Unionist authors. That the UDR were not only deployed when there was civil unrest we may need to clarify, but it is my view that this is obvious from reading the article.--Domer48'fenian' 07:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- Are you prepared either to edit your text, or to accept edits to your text that reduce the nationalist emphasis contained within it, as acknowledged by two uninvolved editors? Mooretwin (talk) 08:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- What one of the uninvolved editors stated was ... but they need to be balanced by statements from Unionist authors... so up to you Mooretwin get alternate sources. BigDunc 08:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's an admission that Domer48 (and you) are content for articles to have a nationalist bias, and believe that the responsibility lies with others to achieve NPOV. Interesting. Mooretwin (talk) 09:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- What is needed is not so much a unionist view as a neutral view. Instead of the selection of Ruane and Todd's provocative statement, we need a neutral, more measured assessment. We also need to strip out the (what comes across as) soapboxing about irrelevant civil rights issues. My version refers to the relevant civil rights issues about the B Specials. If you want a unionist POV, however, then you may wish to insert say that the unionist community saw the USC as the defenders of Northern Ireland from an IRA terror campaign.[42]. Mooretwin (talk) 09:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- If you have sources which refute two respected academics in Todd and Ruane then add them to what you say is a biased addition. They are not the rabid Nationalist/Republicans that you are trying to portray. BigDunc 10:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- I have made no attempt to portray either Ruane or Todd as republicans, rabid or otherwise. The issue (or one of the issues) is the choice of that particular "provocative" assessment for use in the background section of this article. The issue is that, when seeking to provide a short summary, it is not NPOV to choose for exclusive use one of the most extreme or provocative assessments available rather than a more measured and less provocative assessment. Todd and Ruane's views may be interesting to add, among the views of others, into an article about the history of Northern Ireland, or the civil rights movement, but it is not appropriate to select this single source, and only that source, here. Mooretwin (talk) 10:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- If you have sources which refute two respected academics in Todd and Ruane then add them to what you say is a biased addition. They are not the rabid Nationalist/Republicans that you are trying to portray. BigDunc 10:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- What is needed is not so much a unionist view as a neutral view. Instead of the selection of Ruane and Todd's provocative statement, we need a neutral, more measured assessment. We also need to strip out the (what comes across as) soapboxing about irrelevant civil rights issues. My version refers to the relevant civil rights issues about the B Specials. If you want a unionist POV, however, then you may wish to insert say that the unionist community saw the USC as the defenders of Northern Ireland from an IRA terror campaign.[42]. Mooretwin (talk) 09:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's an admission that Domer48 (and you) are content for articles to have a nationalist bias, and believe that the responsibility lies with others to achieve NPOV. Interesting. Mooretwin (talk) 09:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- What one of the uninvolved editors stated was ... but they need to be balanced by statements from Unionist authors... so up to you Mooretwin get alternate sources. BigDunc 08:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
So we agree then that Ruane and Todd are not "strong Nationalist (or even Republican) authors, rabid or otherwise. You just find there view as a provocative assessment, and you would like it toned down. I note that you are not suggesting that what they say is untrue, just that you don't like the way that they say it? --Domer48'fenian' 12:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm unaware of anyone claiming that either was a "strong Nationalist (or even Republican) author". The issue, which has been articulated several times, is not my personal view on the veracity or otherwise of Ruane and Todd’s assessment, or even how they have chosen to express their view (my personal view on either irrelevant): it is the fact that this one view (described here as “provocative”, and certainly at the extreme end of the spectrum of criticisms of Northern Ireland), rather than a more moderate assessment, has been chosen to describe the situation in Northern Ireland. So, really it’s more a case of “I DO LIKE IT” from you: selecting an assessment which best fits with your own personal views on Northern Ireland, rather than one which is less strident and more balanced. The motivation behind the text which you imposed appears more to be about articulating a particular POV rather than about providing, in neutral terms, relevant and helpful information. Mooretwin (talk) 13:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Per my comments above. --Domer48'fenian' 17:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- It seems that Domer48 is unprepared to agree to any compromise on his text. Consensus has not been achieved, however, and so it will have to be reverted. Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Again if you have sources to refute notable academics put them in because you don't like it is not good enough. BigDunc 09:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above comment doesn't address the criticisms of Domer's text. The background section of an article about the UDR is not the place for a debate about the history of Northern Ireland. All that is needed is basic relevant facts. There's no consensus for Domer's text. Mooretwin (talk) 09:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Don't see any for it's removal. BigDunc 09:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above comment doesn't address the criticisms of Domer's text. The background section of an article about the UDR is not the place for a debate about the history of Northern Ireland. All that is needed is basic relevant facts. There's no consensus for Domer's text. Mooretwin (talk) 09:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Again if you have sources to refute notable academics put them in because you don't like it is not good enough. BigDunc 09:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- It seems that Domer48 is unprepared to agree to any compromise on his text. Consensus has not been achieved, however, and so it will have to be reverted. Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Were are the sources that dispute the text in the background section that Mooretwin keeps telling us they have, but never give? --Domer48'fenian' 13:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- A background section on the UDR is not the place for multiple sources to support differing views about the nature of Northern Ireland. Most of what you added, without consensus, is unnecessary. You have shown no willingness to take on board the views of others. You do not own this article, so please revert your text and collaborate with other editors to seek consensus. (Note that collaboration does not mean ganging up with other like-minded editors to force a partisan interpretation into the article.) Mooretwin (talk) 14:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've added in an opposing view to Ruane & Todd as requested. This merely demonstrates that a background section on the UDR is not the place for a debate about the nature of Northern Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 17:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- And I have added the bit that you forgot to add. BigDunc 18:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't forget to add it. I deliberately didn't add it since Ruane & Todd are not quoted as saying that unionists said discrimination was fictional, and you wanted an opposing view to Ruane & Todd. The article needs neither Ruane & Todd nor Paseta: this is an article about the UDR, not the history of Northern Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 22:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- And I have added the bit that you forgot to add. BigDunc 18:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've added in an opposing view to Ruane & Todd as requested. This merely demonstrates that a background section on the UDR is not the place for a debate about the nature of Northern Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 17:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- A background section on the UDR is not the place for multiple sources to support differing views about the nature of Northern Ireland. Most of what you added, without consensus, is unnecessary. You have shown no willingness to take on board the views of others. You do not own this article, so please revert your text and collaborate with other editors to seek consensus. (Note that collaboration does not mean ganging up with other like-minded editors to force a partisan interpretation into the article.) Mooretwin (talk) 14:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Nice addition Dun, as editors trying to force a partisan interpretation into the article should be discouraged. That Ruane & Todd are not quoted as saying "that discrimination was never as calculated as nationalists maintained" either but was added shows how one editor deliberately didn't add it because it did not support their partisan interpretation. --Domer48'fenian' 07:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- If Domer thinks that editors "trying to force a partisan interpretation into the article should be discouraged", why is he insisting on his partisan background section being forced into the article? I don't have a partisan interpretation. On the contrary, I am seeking to moderate Domer's partisan interpretation. I offered an alternative text, which Dunc 'n' Domer rejected (surprise), so I added in an alternative view on Northern Ireland (as requested). Is Domer saying that Paseta is "partisan"? Interesting.
- No-one said that Ruane & Todd were quoted as saying "that discrimination was never as calculated as nationalists maintained". If they were, why would I have added in Paseta saying the exact same thing?
- Ruane & Todd say that "the ethos of the Northern state was unashamedly and unambiguously sectarian". I was asked for an alternative perspective, and this was provided, since Paseta says that discrimination was never as calculated as nationalists maintained, which is clearly a different perspective to that of Ruane & Todd. Paseta's comments about unionists are not relevant, since the background section does not suggest that discrimination was fictional. On the contrary, it suggests that it was deliberate and unashamed.
- If you want a dog's dinner of a background section, though, put in the full Paseta comments. Do you want other perspectives to challenge the rest of the background section, too? Or would it be better to keep it simple and to-the-point? Mooretwin (talk) 12:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Since you want to be a dick, the source you cited Mooretwin doesn't mention Ruane and Todd, so you cannot use part of a sentence only under the belief that "nationalists" refers to them. BigDunc 08:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't see Domer48 being cited in the background section, but we did see an editor who deliberately didn't add part of a sentence because it did not support their partisan interpretations. --Domer48'fenian' 12:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- No-one said Domer was cited in the background section. Paseta's observation about unionists was not added because it was not relevant. I do not have any "partisan interpretations", therefore that could not have been a reason for not adding it. On the contrary, my interest is to remove partisan interpretations from WP: hence my concerns about this background section, which has been drafted deliberately to support a particular partisan viewpoint (see criticisms above). There is no question about unionists denying discrimination, therefore Paseta's views on such denial do not appear to be relevant. Her views, however, on discrimination are relevant because they indicate disagreement with the views of Ruane & Todd, which were deliberately chosen as the most strident and provocative available. Mooretwin (talk) 11:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- So its not mine but Ruane & Todd's views that you suggest are partisan interpretations. I can add equally or more determined points from additional authors if you wish, but you'd first have to be able to support your view that Ruane & Todd's interpretations are partisan. I can assure you they are not the most strident and provocative available, but having provided some supporting evidence to back up your opinion on Ruane & Todd I'll be more than happy to provide sources that are more strident and more as you say provocative. Now, on a final point, stop with the accusations and the assunptions of bad faith. You have more than illustrated your partisan views, and you ability to be slective in how you present information which does not support your POV. Paset does not contradict or challenge anything in the background, regardless of your removal of some of the sentence. I don't have to assume good faith with you, but at least I can be slective. --Domer48'fenian' 13:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- The criticisms of your text, which was added without consensus, are noted above and remain valid. I'm glad that you acknowedge that the view of Ruane & Todd that you have added is strident and provocative: that is progress. Please stop making accusations and assuming bad faith. I have not illustrated any partisan views. On the contrary, I am seeking to achieve NPOV. Unfortunately, so far you have shown no willingness to collaborate to achieve this. Mooretwin (talk) 13:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'll not be wasting time on your trolling. Your a POV pusher, plain and simple. --Domer48'fenian' 13:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
"Unambiguously" and "unashamedly" are low value descriptive adjectives that are discouraged on Wikipedia. They should not be in the article, and I have removed them. Irvine22 (talk) 04:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- All your argueing but that is not the important thing. The section as it is or as Mooretwin proposes it is not good enough, I could write all that myself. There's no direct background such as direct influence of the Hunt report or progessing views of British Army commanders. These are the things that are the background of the UDR. It would be further interest, and the only step toward making what is currently in the section appearing relevant. Why does the section end tantalisingly? You should start of saying "The UDR was formed as a result of the Hunt Report" and then you can go on to say "Hunt Report" many times not just at the end. Also the words UDR and even Defence are missing for the section. Who the heck are all these people mentioned, "Says this" or "Says that"? Let's have it what is a Joseph Ruane, a Jennifer Todd, a Senia Paseta and a Bernadette Fitzgibbon please. I think not to cut out the Catholic viewpoint but to add the Protestant and British ones please rather than a load of opinions from figures we might not recognise. ~ R.T.G 10:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
New Editor
Hello, I'm new here and I'd like to edit this article. I can see it's been fairly contentious for a while and it looks like a reasonably balanced article as a result of all the interventions and argument but in my honest opinion it does need a little tweaking to tidy it up.
I'd also like to find a mentor because I know how emotional any discussion involving the Irish Troubles can be and I don't want anyone accusing me of being partisan.
I'd like to start by addressing two specific issues. The first is that the section called "IRA Military Campaign" seems to be a misnomer and should be changed to reflect the fact that the IRA's splinter groups were also involved and to include any information on attacks by Loyalist organisations (surely there must have been some?). Perhaps it could be retitled "Paramilitary Attacks on the UDR"? The other issue is that there seems to be a lot of sentences beginning with the words "John Potter says" or "Potter says that". I have the Potter book and it is clear that he is the official historian of this regiment, appointed by the British Ministry of Defence and that he had access to all documentation. Some of it must have been very sensitive because the official history has not been released by the Ministry of Defence but they did give himand his publisher the right to release the book after examining it and editing it so it should be taken as properly sourced and edited by official sources. Perhaps a section could be added about Potter which details his military experience, UDR experience, appointment as official historian and anything else which could be explanatory and helpful. In any case the references for each piece of information sourced to Potter should be sufficient to comply with Wikipedia rules and stop a reader becoming confused as to the source. Then the sentences can be properly written without constant reference to him.
I'd really appreciate any help, advice and/or comment from any interested person. This is a record of a fairly unique regiment in terms of British and Irish history and I believe the information on it should be given to interested readers in an informative way which doesn't display the opinions of any of the Irish factions, past or present.
- ^ http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/norgan.htm CAIN Abstract on Organisations: entry under "Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association]
- ^ http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/publicrecords/1973/subversion_in_the_udr.htm Cain, HISTORICAL AND BACKGROUND]
- ^ Ruane & Todd, 2000
- ^ Collier & Sambanis, Pg.164
- ^ Moloney 2002,pg. 39,43,66,85,355, Dillon, 1991, pg.4,7-8, Bell, 1997, pg.293-4,355,364,366, Coogan, 2000, pg. 39,160-62, McKittrick & McVea, 2001, pg.11,14,48
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 121-125
- ^ Ryder & Kearney, pg. 45
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 121-125
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 126-127
- ^ Bew, Gibbon and Patterson, Pg.27
- ^ Bew, Gibbon and Patterson, Pg.19
- ^ CAIN Abstract on Organisations: entry under "Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association
- ^ Cain, HISTORICAL AND BACKGROUND
- ^ Ruane & Todd, 2000
- ^ Fitzgibbon, Pg.328
- ^ Collier & Sambanis, Pg.164
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 126-127
- ^ Moloney 2002,pg. 39,43,66,85,355, Dillon, 1991, pg.4,7-8, Bell, 1997, pg.293-4,355,364,366, Coogan, 2000, pg. 39,160-62, McKittrick & McVea, 2001, pg.11,14,48
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 121-125
- ^ Ryder & Kearney, pg. 45
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 121-125
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 126-127
- ^ Bew, Gibbon and Patterson, Pg.27
- ^ Bew, Gibbon and Patterson, Pg.19
- ^ CAIN Abstract on Organisations: entry under "Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association
- ^ Cain, HISTORICAL AND BACKGROUND
- ^ Ruane & Todd, 2000
- ^ Fitzgibbon, Pg.328
- ^ Collier & Sambanis, Pg.164
- ^ Ruane & Todd, Pg. 126-127
- ^ Moloney 2002,pg. 39,43,66,85,355, Dillon, 1991, pg.4,7-8, Bell, 1997, pg.293-4,355,364,366, Coogan, 2000, pg. 39,160-62, McKittrick & McVea, 2001, pg.11,14,48
- ^ http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/norgan.htm CAIN Abstract on Organisations: entry under "Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association]
- ^ http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/publicrecords/1973/subversion_in_the_udr.htm Cain, HISTORICAL AND BACKGROUND]
- ^ Ruane & Todd, 2000
- ^ Collier & Sambanis, Pg.164
- ^ Moloney 2002,pg. 39,43,66,85,355, Dillon, 1991, pg.4,7-8, Bell, 1997, pg.293-4,355,364,366, Coogan, 2000, pg. 39,160-62, McKittrick & McVea, 2001, pg.11,14,48
- ^ http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/norgan.htm CAIN Abstract on Organisations: entry under "Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association]
- ^ http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/publicrecords/1973/subversion_in_the_udr.htm Cain, HISTORICAL AND BACKGROUND]
- ^ Ruane & Todd, 2000
- ^ Collier & Sambanis, Pg.164
- ^ Moloney 2002,pg. 39,43,66,85,355, Dillon, 1991, pg.4,7-8, Bell, 1997, pg.293-4,355,364,366, Coogan, 2000, pg. 39,160-62, McKittrick & McVea, 2001, pg.11,14,48
- ^ Thomas Hennessey (1997) A History of Northern Ireland 1920 - 1996, p.15. Gill & Macmillan:Dublin. ISBN 0 7171 2400 2