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:::: ''The Independent'' interview a raft of experts - [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-plane-crash-shootdown-ukraine-boeing-latest-a9275051.html] - summary - no expert is willing to definitely rule either way, however the OPS group (aviation experts) stated: "We would recommend the starting assumption to be that this was a shootdown event, similar to MH17 – until there is clear evidence to the contrary". [[User:Zianon|Zianon]] ([[User talk:Zianon|talk]]) 19:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
:::: ''The Independent'' interview a raft of experts - [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-plane-crash-shootdown-ukraine-boeing-latest-a9275051.html] - summary - no expert is willing to definitely rule either way, however the OPS group (aviation experts) stated: "We would recommend the starting assumption to be that this was a shootdown event, similar to MH17 – until there is clear evidence to the contrary". [[User:Zianon|Zianon]] ([[User talk:Zianon|talk]]) 19:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::: The statement by [https://ops.group/blog/risk-assessing-iran-ops-the-uia-737-may-have-been-shot-down/ OPS] is perhaps the weightiest statement of that kind so far. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 19:50, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
:::::: The statement by [https://ops.group/blog/risk-assessing-iran-ops-the-uia-737-may-have-been-shot-down/ OPS] is perhaps the weightiest statement of that kind so far. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 19:50, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::The Western media will likely downplay the discussion over Iran possibly shooting down this airliner, because they've been trying to create sympathy for Iran due to their anti-Trump bias. [[Special:Contributions/155.19.91.37|155.19.91.37]] ([[User talk:155.19.91.37|talk]]) 20:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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==Survivor Count redundant?== |
==Survivor Count redundant?== |
Revision as of 20:07, 8 January 2020
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Aircraft on fire before crash
As there are claims that the aircraft may have been shot down, it is worth discussing the issue.
What is known, is that the aircraft was on fire before it crashed. A tweet from Ali Hashem shows this clearly. I think the article should at least state that the aircraft was filmed on fire shortly before crashing, referenced to the tweet. If reliable sources repeat the claim that the aircraft was shot down, then we should also mention that "it was claimed by (source) that the aircraft was shot down". If the claim is disproved then we should say so. Discuss. Mjroots (talk) 10:38, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Post 24 in the Pprune thread shows wreckage with damage indicative of a surface-to-air missil explosion. Not saying this means it was shot down, but the possibility needs to be considered and evaluated as more info comes to light. Mjroots (talk) 10:45, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Juxlos: the tweet has some credibility. Ali Hashem is a BBC Arabic correspondent. The tweet has been picked up by some mainstream media. Mjroots (talk) 12:08, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Unless I'm looking at the wrong tweet, the BBC correspondent is only saying that the plane was on fire before it crashed, but not saying anything about it being shot down. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 13:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Correct, the evidence for the shootdown is in post 24 of the Pprune thread I linked to above, and other images. I accept that said images may also be evidence of an uncontained engine failure. Time will tell. Mjroots (talk) 13:12, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's not just those sharp holes in the aircraft skin, of course. It's the apparent speed of the aircraft failure and the lack of any emergency call? Here's the latest from NYT. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Higher resolution images in the thread show the "shrapnel holes" are actually just pebbles and debris. There is no current evidence that the plane was shot down. 195.89.171.5 (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- It's not just those sharp holes in the aircraft skin, of course. It's the apparent speed of the aircraft failure and the lack of any emergency call? Here's the latest from NYT. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Correct, the evidence for the shootdown is in post 24 of the Pprune thread I linked to above, and other images. I accept that said images may also be evidence of an uncontained engine failure. Time will tell. Mjroots (talk) 13:12, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
We should not be conducting an investigation ourselves on what brought down this aircraft. See WP:NOTFORUM. I'm particularly concerned on how eager some of the contributors here are to declare this a shoot-down. We should report the investigation's findings when they are published. This talk page is not intended to discuss the accident itself, but to discuss improvements to the article.Tvx1 16:49, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Or before the investigation's findings are published, we might want to consider theories that are published in such sources as The New York Times? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Tvx1: we are not conducting our own investigation. We are discussing what has been reported elsewhere, and assessing the credibility of such reports. Better it is discussed here and a consensus reached, than crap appearing in the article. So far, evidence is inconclusive, and such mention that there is in the article is sufficient. Mjroots (talk) 18:37, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Iran will never admit that it accidentally shot down an airliner believing that it was an attack by the US, just as Russia has never admitted shooting down that Malaysian airliner, believing it was a Ukrainian military transport. Several reliable sources have started speculating on if this is what occurred, so we'll have adequate sourcing soon, if we don't have already. It's telling that Iran is refusing to release the Black Box. 146.14.45.36 (talk) 18:45, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Russia?? Surely you mean "an over-stretched and terribly threatened armed pro-Russian separatist insurgency in Donbass"? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:48, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 and Iran Air Flight 655 might be better analogs.Zianon (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Russia?? Surely you mean "an over-stretched and terribly threatened armed pro-Russian separatist insurgency in Donbass"? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:48, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Independent interview a raft of experts - [1] - summary - no expert is willing to definitely rule either way, however the OPS group (aviation experts) stated: "We would recommend the starting assumption to be that this was a shootdown event, similar to MH17 – until there is clear evidence to the contrary". Zianon (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- The statement by OPS is perhaps the weightiest statement of that kind so far. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:50, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Western media will likely downplay the discussion over Iran possibly shooting down this airliner, because they've been trying to create sympathy for Iran due to their anti-Trump bias. 155.19.91.37 (talk) 20:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- The statement by OPS is perhaps the weightiest statement of that kind so far. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:50, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- Iran will never admit that it accidentally shot down an airliner believing that it was an attack by the US, just as Russia has never admitted shooting down that Malaysian airliner, believing it was a Ukrainian military transport. Several reliable sources have started speculating on if this is what occurred, so we'll have adequate sourcing soon, if we don't have already. It's telling that Iran is refusing to release the Black Box. 146.14.45.36 (talk) 18:45, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Tvx1: we are not conducting our own investigation. We are discussing what has been reported elsewhere, and assessing the credibility of such reports. Better it is discussed here and a consensus reached, than crap appearing in the article. So far, evidence is inconclusive, and such mention that there is in the article is sufficient. Mjroots (talk) 18:37, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Survivor Count redundant?
The fatalities count already says "(all)" and the passenger and crew count total to the fatalities count so it seems like the survivor count doesn't need to be there. --MrMineHeads (talk) 14:21, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Cancelation reason
AFAIK, the missile attack on Iraqi airbase is the reason for the cancelation and rerouting of flights. This article, however, states that "Several airlines reacted to the crash by re-routing flights that flew over Iran, or cancelling flights to Iran". M4DU7 (talk) 19:16, 8 January 2020 (UTC)