→Great Replacement: new section Tag: Reverted |
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I am certain of future readers' gratitude if they knew what they were spared. [[Special:Contributions/69.251.152.73|69.251.152.73]] ([[User talk:69.251.152.73|talk]]) 05:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
I am certain of future readers' gratitude if they knew what they were spared. [[Special:Contributions/69.251.152.73|69.251.152.73]] ([[User talk:69.251.152.73|talk]]) 05:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{Done}}, that did make for a needlessly complicated sentence structure. '''[[User:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#6363ed">Angry</span><span style="color:#a863ed">Harpy</span>]]'''<span style="visibility:hidden; color:transparent; padding-left:2px">{{zero width joiner}}</span><sup><small>[[User talk:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#63a8ed">talk</span>]]</small></sup> 05:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
:{{Done}}, that did make for a needlessly complicated sentence structure. '''[[User:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#6363ed">Angry</span><span style="color:#a863ed">Harpy</span>]]'''<span style="visibility:hidden; color:transparent; padding-left:2px">{{zero width joiner}}</span><sup><small>[[User talk:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#63a8ed">talk</span>]]</small></sup> 05:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== Great Replacement == |
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You know that time when Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote Jordan Peterson's philosophy into the mouth of The Red Skull? |
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Imagine if you will the reaction when people realize that Tucker Carlson's new writer (who replaced the one sacked for being a white supremacist) has been working elements of white supremacist mass shooter manifestos into his monologues. https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1381236305514860546 '''[[user:JzG|Guy]]''' <small>([[user talk:JzG|help!]] - [[User:JzG/Typos|typo?]])</small> 19:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:47, 11 April 2021
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 July 2020 and 28 August 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): HBS 9 (article contribs).
Political Party
Although he is registered a democrat, I do not think we should list it in his infobox as Democrat because:
1 his Political beliefs do not reflect the current political beliefs of the Democratic Party
2 Political party box is really only used for people who are not just registered for political party but who actively support that political party
3 It is mentioned in the section about his political views that the only reason why he is registered a democrat is that he can vote “ for the status quo candidate vs the more progressive candidate” essentially picking in his mind the worse of two evils.
Therefore I don’t think we should have it in his infobox. That’s not to say it should not be mentioned at all, I think we should get rid of Political party section in his infobox and keep the part in the Political view section were it explains why he is registered a Democrat. BigRed606 (talk) 02:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- Who says the infobox field is supposed to be used that way (2)? Removing it does no good; someone reset it to "Repoublican", which is incorrect and WP:OR]. I have reset it with a citation and quote from the cited source. No one should be confused. If infoboxes are to be used at all, they should contain the truth, not opinion. JustinTime55 (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- The source you are trying to use is an opinion piece. If it is both factual and relevant enough for an infobox, we should be able to find a non-opinion source. I would also say that it's an WP:EXCEPTIONAL thing to say about him given the rest of the article, so particularly for putting it in an infobox (where we cannot provide any context), it is necessary to have a high-quality source unambiguously stating his political party is Democratic. Regarding how it ought to be used, that's based on what it says. It says merely "political party" with no clarifications, so to avoid confusion it ought to only be used when it is unambiguous that someone is affiliated with a political party in every reasonable interpretation of those words. --Aquillion (talk) 20:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, to prevent confusion, I'm okay with removing it. But the parameter should be completely removed rather than being left blank, so that no one is tempted to re-add it, or worse, add the incorrect "Republican". JustinTime55 (talk) 20:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the rationale at the top of this comment section. Joining a political party does not require an ideological test and ongoing fealty to the positions of the party leadership. If it's true that Carlson is a registered Democrat, then this fact should be in the article, in the info box. Anything other than that, and we are picking and choosing facts to shape a narrative - and that's not encyclopedic writing. Tondelleo Schwarzkopf (talk) 01:11, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
He's a Republican. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.208.226.214 (talk) 00:17, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Any RS to confirm that? Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 00:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Trinity College: Specify
To add clarity, suggest modification on Education citation in Bio Summary Box:
Education: Trinity College (Connecticut) (BA)
[Note: A quick search of Trinity College on Wikipedia yields numerous colleges: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_College. The suggested change, adding "Connecticut," is consistent with Wikipedia's own reference of the school.] 64.38.186.125 (talk) 17:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
George Floyd
Rhododendrites with the addition of other sources Daily Dot shouldn't have been added back to the article. DD isn't considered reliable for political claims. Since we have other sources to support the statement DD should be left out. Would you object to removal of only DD? It does appear that a number of sources have picked up on Carlson's claim. I'm not sure if any have noted that this is a defense claim made by Derek Chauvin's defense team [[1]]. This Salon article is a more balanced take [[2]]. It quotes Carlson who gave himself a bit of a hedge, "There was no physical evidence that George Floyd was murdered by a cop. The autopsy showed that George Floyd almost certainly died of a drug overdose, fentanyl." This is a statement that is hard to label as "actually false" even if it can easily be labeled as misleading. A charge of murder would be hard here since that would include proving intent to kill vs something more like reckless/negligent homicide. Since he said "almost certainly" it's false to say "Tucker said he did die of..." That basically makes the DD story inaccurate. The Salon article better and probably what we should be citing. Note that neither Salon nor The Independent use the term "falsely". How do people feel about replacing DD with Salon and removing the claim of "falsely"? Springee (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- My mistake. I intended to remove DD, but only removed the citation at the end of the paragraph rather than both instances of it. Done now. No objection to wording tweaks or the addition of Salon. I just saw an addition removed due to sourcing that I thought I could find better sources for. :) — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:48, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- You still haven't removed the Daily Dot reference. Springee, can you replace it with Salon? JustinTime55 (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Facepalm gone now — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:06, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- You still haven't removed the Daily Dot reference. Springee, can you replace it with Salon? JustinTime55 (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think "falsely" belongs on the list of words to watch, because it tends to imply deliberate lying. "Incorrectly" denotes the same thing, in a much more NPOV way. Since the autopsy COD seems to contradict the fentanyl claim, I would favor replacing "falsely" with "incorrectly". JustinTime55 (talk) 23:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think the salon article says Carlson's claim conflicts with the corners report. I think there were reports that said Floyd had OD levels in his blood. We should probably wait for the courts to decide if the claim is false and just stick with what it conflicts with. Springee (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Makes perfect sense. JustinTime55 (talk) 00:09, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- WP:FRINGE seems like a problem for just saying "conflicts with the medical examiner's report". We have four sources, two of which explicitly say that Carlson's claim was false or "mostly false", and all of which say that he's making the claim about cause of death contrary to the cause of death. "Incorrectly" implies a good faith mistake, which seems like the minimum description here. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:44, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that "mistakenly" isn't a good choice in this case. That could imply he was unaware that his claims conflicted with for example the coroners report. Salon's quote was, "The claim that Floyd actually died of a fentanyl overdose has been made by lawyers representing the police seen kneeling on his neck for almost 10 minutes while he begged for air — something his family and attorney fiercely disputes. The medical examiner's report also confirms that Floyd died not from a drug overdose but from "homicide."". I would rather say something like that since it gets to the heart of the matter. The Independent said, "Despite claims by Mr Carlson about Floyd's death, the autopsies carried-out on Floyd’s body, showed that he died following his restraint by a Minneapolis Police officer, Derek Chauvin, from either compression of the neck or heart failure. While fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system at the time of his death, the drugs were not listed as a cause of Floyd’s death, as claimed by Mr Carlson." Either summation or a mix of both is better than "falsely" as it says what information is in dispute and who disputes it. Springee (talk) 02:01, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think the salon article says Carlson's claim conflicts with the corners report. I think there were reports that said Floyd had OD levels in his blood. We should probably wait for the courts to decide if the claim is false and just stick with what it conflicts with. Springee (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Is "speculation of a presidential run" section WP:CRYSTAL?
Carlson has repeatedly denied intentions to run for president thus far, and I'm aware of the constant speculation by both mainstream sources to amatuer politicos, but is this not WP:CRYSTAL considering he hasn't shown major signs of someone gearing up for a presidential run like going to Iowa and such? Additionally, the election would be about three years away, or two years when factoring in primary seasons, so isn't it best to wait for more further confirmation before applying this to the article? CaliIndie (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I tend to think it is. If he announces a run we can mention it then. If thing becomes of this talk then it shouldn't have been in the article in the first place. I would support removal. Springee (talk) 21:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. I hate these. No long-term encyclopedic value. These days, everybody and their mother has some text about how someone somewhere speculated that they were running for president. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
6 Jan Storming of the Capitol
While I think Carlson's overall views on the Capitol riots are likely due, this recent addition looks like yet another example of Carlson says something that some reporter doesn't like thus we have to add it to the article.[[3]] WashPo is a reasonable enough source but if the only other source is Mediate should this be here? It appears that the WP's concern is mincing words vs something grossly offensive that is resulting in protests from advertisers or such. How much impact do we expect before we say something is actually significant and thus DUE? Springee (talk) 03:22, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Soibangla:, can you explain why this is more than the typical run of the mill criticism of Carlson? Springee (talk) 19:40, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
- Your updated sources are still not sufficient to justify including this material. The CNN source is an off hand mention. The Austin American Stateman isn't a major paper. Again, given the volume of criticism directed at Carlson this is a minor thing and fails the 10YT. Springee (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
- The wording seems to be synthesis. Carlson said, "There’s no evidence that white supremacists were responsible." We rebut him with the statement, "There is extensive evidence of involvement by white supremacists...." The Mediate opinion article's complaint was not that Carlson's statement was wrong but that he misrepresented Attorney-General designate Merrick Garland. "Garland did not say white supremacists were solely responsible. He said they stormed the Capitol, amongst others." The Washington Post analysis article says, "Some of this is an effort [by Carlson] to blur lines between “being involved” and “being responsible for.” TFD (talk) 00:09, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- What happened here is a classic "pivot to a strawman." By pivoting to the term "responsible for," he misrepresents what Garland says, thereby creating a strawman he can then claim to knock down, but he actually knocked down what he said Garland said, not what Garland actually said. Oldest trick in the book, his credulous viewers don't notice/care and, by design, walk away thinking Garland lied about white supremacist involvement. Now circle back to 2019 when he said that white supremacy is a "hoax" and a "conspiracy theory used to divide the country and keep a hold on power" to see this is not an isolated incident.[4] I included Mediaite for the video so readers can see for themselves, though it does contribute to DUE. soibangla (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why is this due? Carlson says many things that result in noise from the other side of the isle. What makes this particular example something that would pass the 10YT. Absent some justification removal as UNDUE is inevitable. Springee (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why are we even discussing this issue on this talk page? This topic is not germane to an encyclopedic article about a media personalty with such a lengthy career. Carlson himself is not material to this topic. And that being true, it naturally follows that this entire section does not belong here or in this article. Tondelleo Schwarzkopf (talk) 22:59, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Soibangla, please address the questions related to this content. Springee (talk) 19:53, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- While the Mediaite and WP articles criticize Carlson for using a strawman argument, that's not what the text conveys. It makes it look as if Carlson was denying white supremacist involvement. As soibangla points out, this it typical of Carlson and we could probably find countless examples, many of which have been reported on. While we should explain Carlson's questionable arguments, i don't see why this particular example should be in the article. TFD (talk) 20:04, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- The text does say that, actually, and the primary if not exclusive reason that there are countless examples of this but they are not represented in the article is because there has been a determined effort to exclude them, such that the consistent pattern cannot be seen and thus every successive example can be challenged as an outlier and undue. WP:GAMING. soibangla (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Soibangla, if this is meant to represent an example of Carlson double speak then it should be in a section about that. If there are a number of examples then I think it would make sense to include them as criticism of his rhetorical style. However, as presented it isn't clear that is the reason why this example is important. Instead it comes across as if Carlson said something that was universally condemned. Zooming out, this is a problem with this article, editors add an individual event that they rightly feel is an example of a wider behavior but the source only supports discussing the specific thing. Other editors look at that thing in isolation since that is all the text and sourcing provide and, rightly, say this stand alone thing doesn't pass the 10 year test. The problem is finding sources that would discuss Carlson's rhetorical methods rather than just stand alone examples. Springee (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- The text does say that, actually, and the primary if not exclusive reason that there are countless examples of this but they are not represented in the article is because there has been a determined effort to exclude them, such that the consistent pattern cannot be seen and thus every successive example can be challenged as an outlier and undue. WP:GAMING. soibangla (talk) 20:17, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- While the Mediaite and WP articles criticize Carlson for using a strawman argument, that's not what the text conveys. It makes it look as if Carlson was denying white supremacist involvement. As soibangla points out, this it typical of Carlson and we could probably find countless examples, many of which have been reported on. While we should explain Carlson's questionable arguments, i don't see why this particular example should be in the article. TFD (talk) 20:04, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why is this due? Carlson says many things that result in noise from the other side of the isle. What makes this particular example something that would pass the 10YT. Absent some justification removal as UNDUE is inevitable. Springee (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- What happened here is a classic "pivot to a strawman." By pivoting to the term "responsible for," he misrepresents what Garland says, thereby creating a strawman he can then claim to knock down, but he actually knocked down what he said Garland said, not what Garland actually said. Oldest trick in the book, his credulous viewers don't notice/care and, by design, walk away thinking Garland lied about white supremacist involvement. Now circle back to 2019 when he said that white supremacy is a "hoax" and a "conspiracy theory used to divide the country and keep a hold on power" to see this is not an isolated incident.[4] I included Mediaite for the video so readers can see for themselves, though it does contribute to DUE. soibangla (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Austin American Stateman ref is from Politifact, which should probably be cited directly. --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- I used the Statesman republished version first because the Politifact link was broken for hours, they later fixed it, so then I swapped it in. soibangla (talk) 01:02, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
I think the question regarding including illustrative examples was interesting. That is, even if this event isn't stand alone due, it may be due as part of a section talking about issues with his rhetorical style. To that end I posted a hypothetical based question to NOR [[5]]. Springee (talk) 21:28, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- The WaPo source does provide broader context:
There’s another effort propagated by Fox News’s Tucker Carlson, in which he attempts to diminish the idea that white nationalists had a significant presence — or, perhaps, any presence — on that day. His motivations for doing so are complicated. Carlson is sensitive about people being labeled as “white nationalist” after he himself was targeted with the label following various members of his staff being outed for using white nationalist rhetoric and for his own comments about immigration and race. He’s also heavily invested in the idea that allegations of white nationalism are being used as a fraudulent predicate to attack Republicans broadly.
That larger context would (combined with other sources that cover Carlson's opinions on white nationalism) fit into a larger section on the topic without being synthesis, since the connection is made in the source. --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)- That seems like a more reasonably way to keep this content or at least the source. Springee (talk) 22:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Springee, if you, quote, "think Carlson's overall views on the Capitol riots are likely due", why are you removing any info on this from the article? If you think it should be presented in a different way that's fine but that's an entirely different thing than just removing it completely. Volunteer Marek 00:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)The material in the article is not a summary of his statements or views on the capitol riots. The riots are simply a backdrop in this case. We have a few sources that felt he pulled a verbal slight of hand (responsible for vs participated in). If we had a section on misleading rhetoric this material would fit. If we wanted to create a section on his views on the capitol riots this material might be useful. However, as is, this simply doesn't rise to the level needed for inclusion. This is, by Carlson standards, a trivial "controversy" and thus UNDUE for inclusion. Even if we take your comment as a support for inclusion there still isn't consensus for inclusion. Springee (talk) 01:57, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Springee, if you, quote, "think Carlson's overall views on the Capitol riots are likely due", why are you removing any info on this from the article? If you think it should be presented in a different way that's fine but that's an entirely different thing than just removing it completely. Volunteer Marek 00:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- That seems like a more reasonably way to keep this content or at least the source. Springee (talk) 22:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Telling falsehoods about the storming of the U.S. Capitol, as well as about white supremacy in the US (which Carlson has a track record doing[6][7][8] and fraud in the 2020 election (which Carlson has a track record of doing), is DUE. This already fits within broader themes that are in the article. The only issue is whether this belongs in the 'Claims of fraud in the 2020 election' subsection or the 'Immigration and race' subsection. I think the latter. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:55, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Your argument relies on synthesis. 01:57, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I have added a shorter version of this information to the 2020 election section (WP:BOLD). It may pass muster in that context. Llll5032 (talk) 07:40, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- I still have issues with this. Again, what does this say about TC's view on this subject? The reason to mention this material is if we want to talk about how TC uses rhetoric. This simply hasn't caused enough fuss to mention it as a controversy nor does it tell us anything about his views of Jan 6th. As an aside, this article illustrates yet another case of Politifact being less than factual. In this case PF essentially does the same thing TC is guilty of. TC is criticized for changing the argument of Garland from "supremacist involved" to "supremacist caused" yet PF does the exact same thing! PF evaluates the claim "supremacist involved" and concludes they were thus Carlson's claim is false. If it was misleading for Carlson to falsely summarize Garland's claim then it's just as wrong for PF to do the same to Carlson. PF could have been more clear and said Carlson's claim is misleading and while there is no evidence that this was planned or caused by white superracist groups members of those groups did participate. Thus it is misleading to respond to a comment about participation with one about planning. If this were a one time thing for PF I would be more inclined to let it slide. Instead this is a frequent problem with the source. PF seems to decide the outcome then builds the narrative to fit it. I do acknowledge this is a RS issue but since this PF opinion was included I think it's relevant to the current discussion. Springee (talk) 13:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Springee, would it be more contextual then to put this into the Immigration and Race section, because it illuminates TC's views on white supremacy in American political discussions? Also (putting aside your RS question about Politifact), how many sources should mention a controversy to be "enough fuss to mention it"? I agree with you if you're saying that a section on Carlson's rhetorical strategies would be valuable, but I don't know that it would be the best context for this controversy. Llll5032 (talk)15:45, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- No, that would be OR to imply this reflects his views on white supremacy. I'm going to do some speculative OR regarding what I think Carlson is thinking. I'm not claiming this is correct or this is my own opinion. Zooming out this looks like Carlson is concerned that people are going to use this event and the fear of a violent white supremacist movement to expand federal powers similar to what happened with 9-11 and the Patriot Act etc. Hence when someone is testifying that Jan 6 was a "dangerous insurrection" and white supremacist were involved, Carlson sees these as justifications that will be used to justify a "domestic Patriot Act" and attacks on conservative free speech. Assuming Carlson's intent is to undermine the arguments he argues that Jan 6th wasn't a dangerous insurrection, rather it was protesters expressing their "concerns" (and draw a BLM protest parallel here). He also tries to argue that Jan 6th was not "planned" or motivated by white supremacist ideas/thinking etc. That is, the motives of the protesters were things other than racism/trying to terrorize non-whites. Thus I see this not as his views on white supremacy since he doesn't see these as related rather he sees it as an excuse to expand federal power. To use a 9-11 parallel, some people were concerned about the Patriot Act not because they felt 9-11 didn't happen or they were sympathetic to the terrorist. Rather they were concerned about the powers the law itself. Again I emphasize this is my OR regarding what I think Carlson is thinking. I'm not claiming it is right or wrong. As for inclusion, I don't see this as enough of a controversy to merit inclusion and it seems we have a roughly even split between those that see this as just another minor controversy for a controversial figure (ie not DUE) and those who want inclusion. It would be nice to have a good RS aggregate some of these things together for us. As I said before, I think a section of his rhetorical style would be good but I also asked the NORN if creating such a section would pass muster. I think the answer was a consensus NO. Springee (talk) 16:23, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Your NORN question [9] was "Can we combine examples to suggest a pattern even if no RS notes the pattern?" The answer is no, we shouldn't do that. But obviously it's fine to say that a RS notes the pattern! As the Washington Post did. Llll5032 (talk) 16:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- I may have missed it but I don't see that the WP article sets this up as a pattern or discusses this as an example of Carlson's rhetorical style. Rather they just say that is what he is doing in this instance. That was my NORN question. In effect if I have a dozen sources that say, "Carlson twisted an argument" can I then have a section on "Carlson has a habit of twisting arguments". By my read the answer was no. Springee (talk) 17:16, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Well the Washington Post article says that Carlson was using a strawman argument.[10] But even if we accept your point here, then that would be a point against including this incident in a section on Carlson's rhetoric -- it could still be germane to a section about his views on white supremacy or on the Capitol incident. Llll5032 (talk) 17:28, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- But a single example of using a strawman isn't worth including. To include a discussion of Carlson using strawman arguments we need a source that says (in effect), "Carlson frequently uses strawman arguments". I don't think we have a section that talks about Carlson's use of rhetorical devices in his arguments thus we can't create one. This is why I keep circling back to this content is UNDUE. Springee (talk) 18:03, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Well the Washington Post article says that Carlson was using a strawman argument.[10] But even if we accept your point here, then that would be a point against including this incident in a section on Carlson's rhetoric -- it could still be germane to a section about his views on white supremacy or on the Capitol incident. Llll5032 (talk) 17:28, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- I may have missed it but I don't see that the WP article sets this up as a pattern or discusses this as an example of Carlson's rhetorical style. Rather they just say that is what he is doing in this instance. That was my NORN question. In effect if I have a dozen sources that say, "Carlson twisted an argument" can I then have a section on "Carlson has a habit of twisting arguments". By my read the answer was no. Springee (talk) 17:16, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Your NORN question [9] was "Can we combine examples to suggest a pattern even if no RS notes the pattern?" The answer is no, we shouldn't do that. But obviously it's fine to say that a RS notes the pattern! As the Washington Post did. Llll5032 (talk) 16:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- No, that would be OR to imply this reflects his views on white supremacy. I'm going to do some speculative OR regarding what I think Carlson is thinking. I'm not claiming this is correct or this is my own opinion. Zooming out this looks like Carlson is concerned that people are going to use this event and the fear of a violent white supremacist movement to expand federal powers similar to what happened with 9-11 and the Patriot Act etc. Hence when someone is testifying that Jan 6 was a "dangerous insurrection" and white supremacist were involved, Carlson sees these as justifications that will be used to justify a "domestic Patriot Act" and attacks on conservative free speech. Assuming Carlson's intent is to undermine the arguments he argues that Jan 6th wasn't a dangerous insurrection, rather it was protesters expressing their "concerns" (and draw a BLM protest parallel here). He also tries to argue that Jan 6th was not "planned" or motivated by white supremacist ideas/thinking etc. That is, the motives of the protesters were things other than racism/trying to terrorize non-whites. Thus I see this not as his views on white supremacy since he doesn't see these as related rather he sees it as an excuse to expand federal power. To use a 9-11 parallel, some people were concerned about the Patriot Act not because they felt 9-11 didn't happen or they were sympathetic to the terrorist. Rather they were concerned about the powers the law itself. Again I emphasize this is my OR regarding what I think Carlson is thinking. I'm not claiming it is right or wrong. As for inclusion, I don't see this as enough of a controversy to merit inclusion and it seems we have a roughly even split between those that see this as just another minor controversy for a controversial figure (ie not DUE) and those who want inclusion. It would be nice to have a good RS aggregate some of these things together for us. As I said before, I think a section of his rhetorical style would be good but I also asked the NORN if creating such a section would pass muster. I think the answer was a consensus NO. Springee (talk) 16:23, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
- Springee, would it be more contextual then to put this into the Immigration and Race section, because it illuminates TC's views on white supremacy in American political discussions? Also (putting aside your RS question about Politifact), how many sources should mention a controversy to be "enough fuss to mention it"? I agree with you if you're saying that a section on Carlson's rhetorical strategies would be valuable, but I don't know that it would be the best context for this controversy. Llll5032 (talk)15:45, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Springee, when you mentioned a hypothetical section on TC's rhetoric and argument style, I thought it was a very good idea, so I began one here. I hope you can help edit it and maybe expand it. Llll5032 (talk) 06:31, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- I will take a look. In particular I need to look over the sources. I think the section is a good start but I would change a number of things. First, I think I would change the section title to something less confrontational sounding. I understand "argument" often is just a neutral term but other times it suggests a negative/heated verbal discussion. Next, I think the section is a bit long and uses too many direct quotes. We really should be summarizing those sources and trying to paint a single coherent picture of how Carlson debates with opponents. Also, some of this may be how the TV show producers set things up. For example, is it Carlson or the producers of his show that keep the camera on both at the same time. Also, is that anything unusual (I think most shows do that now that widescreen is the standard). That said, I'm pleased that you found sources that can work as a foundation for this material. Do any of them mention strawman arguments? If they do we could add the recently debated Garland content in as an example. Note that I would have that as a short the text simply saying sourced noted the strawman, not the rest of the debate associated with it. Springee (talk) 14:02, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Springee. I shortened the section a little, and paraphrased some quotes. Feel free to change the section title. I agree with you that more sources could be added to paint a picture in Wiki voice. Also the section could be expanded to sum up more patterns in Carlson's use of logic or fallacies (as you mention), a summary of what fact checkers have said about him and how he has responded, and maybe more about his rapport with his viewers. Llll5032 (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Why?
Why are we even discussing this issue on this talk page? This topic is not germane to an encyclopedic article about a media personalty with such a lengthy career. Carlson himself is not material to this topic. And that being true, it naturally follows that this entire section does not belong here or in this article. Tondelleo Schwarzkopf (talk) 23:02, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- At some point we're going to have to make a separate "Political views of Tucker Carlson" page, like we have with Political views of Bill O'Reilly who he replaced. CaliIndie (talk) 01:47, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Does anyone think we have a consensus to include at this time? It appears to be a 50/50 split among editors expressing support vs not supporting. Springee (talk) 15:04, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- No one except Volunteer Marek and Snooganssnoogans, and he certainly doesn't count. --Malerooster (talk) 03:23, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I have just approved this article: Political views of Tucker Carlson
Editors interested in this subject may wish to review this new article. --Salimfadhley (talk) 17:59, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- While this article is getting pretty long, I don't agree that this section should be just cut and moved. [If the new article is to exist] the material needs to be properly summarized here, not just moved over. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 03:17, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites: I think the bulk of the edit preserved the contents that the lead of the article calls back to, being the former libertarianism, the isolationism and the immigration and racial comments. I agree it should be summarized, but the idea of my edit was to cut the fluff (we don't need to know his views on GOP/Dem here, it's commonly agreed he's a Trump Republican who hates the majority of the Democrats; nor do the incendiary comments on whatever is in the news at the time contribute to the understanding of him either, it's better for the other article basically) and keep the remainers so it would be summarized later, if you catch my drift, the edit was basically to establish their independence from each other and not a permanent design choice. It's a big move, I understand, and I'm aware it's going to be a big shift since most edits on this article pertains to his views, but it's grown big enough to hold it's own weight which is my reasoning for the splitting off, similar to political views of Bill O'Reilly, who Tucker did replace after all. CaliIndie (talk) 04:00, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- I have mixed feelings about spinning it out in general. My main objection is
summarized later
. In an article like this, where every sentence seems to require multiple talk page discussions, by just cutting it all and saying "summarize it later," that puts a huge burden on anyone trying to re-add a summary later. As this is the status quo version (more or less), it would be best to have this version here until consensus emerges on a summary (through editing or through discussion). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:51, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- I have mixed feelings about spinning it out in general. My main objection is
- I tend to agree with Rhododendrites here. I think shunting this content to a child article will make it a bit of a POV fork. The problem can be fixed here (if an editor is willing to take on the task and can handle the inevitable arrows). As was just said, the issue seems to be that this isn't a summary so much as a laundry list edited each time Carlson says something that gets the press up in arms. Also, this content often doesn't summarize Carlson's political views so much as provide small moments in time. As a hypothetical analogy, Carlson might be highly against a new school funding law. Does that mean he is against school funding or is it just that I'm against that bill. That bill might have some sort of poison pill buried in it or a questionable long term union guarantee. It might have some sort of "school safety" that caused alarm. The fact is, what Carlson says about a particular topic might not reflect his general view of the topic. Another example would be opposition to the ACA vs opposition to healthcare reform. Anyway, if this is meant to be a summary of his views it shouldn't read like a list of criticisms of things he has said or advocated. That would be a summary of criticisms. Springee (talk) 04:33, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Springee:@Rhododendrites: I disagree. There are numerous examples of Wiki articles where the 'Political Views' section is composed mostly of controversies or statements that have received media attention. Take the article on Laurence Fox as an example. This has done so well to meet the site's editorial standards that it has been deemed a "Good Article". This is all relevant information and will be appreciated by readers who want to know more about the figure. If the media covers these views, surely Wiki should as well? Cut some fat but keep the meat. Cosmopolismetropolis (talk) 19:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- What do you disagree about? I have mixed feelings about spinning out in general, but restored the material to ensure it's properly summarized [at least] rather than just cut. What you're saying doesn't sound contradictory. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:13, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think the most important set of facts about a political commentator are his opinions on political issues. Having reviewed this discussion, (and despite being the person who approved the new article), I think the material would be better on this page. It's literally his job to have opinions about political issues, so putting it on the main subject page would seem appropriate to me. --Salimfadhley (talk) 21:33, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- What do you disagree about? I have mixed feelings about spinning out in general, but restored the material to ensure it's properly summarized [at least] rather than just cut. What you're saying doesn't sound contradictory. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:13, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Springee:@Rhododendrites: I disagree. There are numerous examples of Wiki articles where the 'Political Views' section is composed mostly of controversies or statements that have received media attention. Take the article on Laurence Fox as an example. This has done so well to meet the site's editorial standards that it has been deemed a "Good Article". This is all relevant information and will be appreciated by readers who want to know more about the figure. If the media covers these views, surely Wiki should as well? Cut some fat but keep the meat. Cosmopolismetropolis (talk) 19:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites: I think the bulk of the edit preserved the contents that the lead of the article calls back to, being the former libertarianism, the isolationism and the immigration and racial comments. I agree it should be summarized, but the idea of my edit was to cut the fluff (we don't need to know his views on GOP/Dem here, it's commonly agreed he's a Trump Republican who hates the majority of the Democrats; nor do the incendiary comments on whatever is in the news at the time contribute to the understanding of him either, it's better for the other article basically) and keep the remainers so it would be summarized later, if you catch my drift, the edit was basically to establish their independence from each other and not a permanent design choice. It's a big move, I understand, and I'm aware it's going to be a big shift since most edits on this article pertains to his views, but it's grown big enough to hold it's own weight which is my reasoning for the splitting off, similar to political views of Bill O'Reilly, who Tucker did replace after all. CaliIndie (talk) 04:00, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Having seen material like this [[11]] added as an example of Carlson's "political views" on defense I think it's clear that article will become a dumping ground for the controversy of the week. As such it should be merged back into this article. A true summary of his positions, as opposed to a collection of things he has said that triggered the outrange media, shouldn't be too long to have in this article. Springee (talk) 12:47, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with the material used on that page as opposed to its usage here. As explained by another user that page is used for material not suitable for a WP:BLP but otherwise valid for documentation thanks to RS. I wouldn't call it WP:NOTNEWS. CaliIndie (talk) 20:06, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- @CaliIndie: You seem to be misunderstanding BLP policy, which applies to material about living people on any Wikipedia page, not just biographies. Volteer1 (talk) 22:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Volteer1: No, you don't seem to understand what I mean by that. WP:BLP dictates WP:BLPBALANCE, being material is presented . . . conservatively, as mentioned earlier, the section has grown far too large and too forthcoming for any minor controversy to come and take pride of place in it. Just recently Tucker Carlson's article has received a big bump thanks to the maternity flight suit comment and John Oliver video, take a look at how many edit have been made to this article compared to my new one, and you'll see why having this new article is very benefical. CaliIndie (talk) 22:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- No, again, WP:BLPBALANCE applies to information about living persons in any Wikipedia article. We can't split BLPs into separate articles and then throw away the more stringent sourcing and NPOV policy guidelines in those articles, we still need to cite reliable secondary sources and give due weight to praise and criticism in both articles, it shouldn't become a WP:POVFORK.
- @Volteer1: No, you don't seem to understand what I mean by that. WP:BLP dictates WP:BLPBALANCE, being material is presented . . . conservatively, as mentioned earlier, the section has grown far too large and too forthcoming for any minor controversy to come and take pride of place in it. Just recently Tucker Carlson's article has received a big bump thanks to the maternity flight suit comment and John Oliver video, take a look at how many edit have been made to this article compared to my new one, and you'll see why having this new article is very benefical. CaliIndie (talk) 22:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- @CaliIndie: You seem to be misunderstanding BLP policy, which applies to material about living people on any Wikipedia page, not just biographies. Volteer1 (talk) 22:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with the material used on that page as opposed to its usage here. As explained by another user that page is used for material not suitable for a WP:BLP but otherwise valid for documentation thanks to RS. I wouldn't call it WP:NOTNEWS. CaliIndie (talk) 20:06, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding quantity, that's just a question of what is due. Given Carlson's job is to give his political opinions, that's kind of what makes him notable in the first place, so it's fine for there to be a large chunk of the article dedicated to his political views (and not for say, the Political views of H. G. Wells). If the political views section becomes as big as Political views of Bill O'Reilly I would support the split, but as it stands I think it's fine as it was. Volteer1 (talk) 23:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Volteer1: Clearly your issue stems from the content already present, if you have a problem with the wording as it stands that's present both there and in this article. There is no WP:NPOV violations present and reliable secondary sources are obviously present. Praise in this context is not one that holds much weight, how much praise can Carlson possibly achieve from simply expressing his political views, it's not our job to communicate the level of support present for his position on abortion.
- Regarding quantity, that's just a question of what is due. Given Carlson's job is to give his political opinions, that's kind of what makes him notable in the first place, so it's fine for there to be a large chunk of the article dedicated to his political views (and not for say, the Political views of H. G. Wells). If the political views section becomes as big as Political views of Bill O'Reilly I would support the split, but as it stands I think it's fine as it was. Volteer1 (talk) 23:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Carlson is a political commentator but he's not a legislator, and considering how he's especially known for his controversial and headline-grabbing statements on current events and not exact political stances, it's preferrably apt the "Commentary" section be dedicated to that, but no consensus has officially come oto say one way or another. CaliIndie (talk) 00:54, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think the article needs to be deleted. I get the good faith thinking that created it but it's just going to become a dumping ground for questionable content. It currently exists not because this topic needs it but because it provides a place for the rejected content to live. Additionally, there is a huge overlap between the content their and here. Anytime you have a parent/child article relationship the parent article should only summarize the content of the child article. Here we have a great opportunity for the article to get out of WP:SYNC. Springee (talk) 01:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Does this represent Carlson's "view" of the military?
Starship.paint added a new subsection to Carlson's political views basically saying that he criticized something related to women in the military[[12]]. That got pushback and 3 sources are cited. Is this really DUE? This again raises the concerns regarding what level of "outrange" is needed before we add something to this article. Even if this is DUE I'm not sure how we can say this qualifies as Carlson's view on the military. I will also note, this same content was added the Political views of Tucker Carlson article which strikes me as nothing more than a POV fork where editors feel more freedom to pack a laundry list of things like this. Springee (talk) 05:56, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- (1) If three sources aren’t enough then how many would you want, Springee? I was about to remove one source for OVERCITE in the parent article but seems like you wouldn’t like it? (2) This is Carlson’s political view on Defense. (3) May I remind you that the outrage has risen tot the level of the Defense Secretary. (4) I recognise that this is the parent article so less detail was included here. starship.paint (exalt) 06:03, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think you missed the point. This is a RECENT and thus far very minor controversy for a public figure who has been involved in many controversies. Thus what makes this one significant enough to be DUE for inclusion at all? Do we see a loss of advertisers or dozens of articles criticizing him? Will people look back on this even a year from now and think this is a significant example of Carlson's views towards the military/defense? The difference in levels of detail here vs the POV fork article are small. If that is all the difference is ever going to be the other article should be merged back into this one as even this one is in danger of just becoming a laundry list of minor controversies. Springee (talk) 06:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- You may claim that I have missed the point, but I think I am on a different point altogether. You frame this as a
very minor controversy
, but this section is not entitled Controversies, it is entitled Political positions. Carlson probably has thousands of political positions, but how many will receive as much coverage? I don’t think the BBC or Al Jazeera regularly cover Carlson, so when they do, it’s because this issue is important. starship.paint (exalt) 10:02, 12 March 2021 (UTC)- So what political position is this? Wikipedia is meant to summarize, not provide every detail. So, we can assume he is against something specific to a new maternity policy in the military. Does that mean he is anti-military, anti-extension of various maternity policies, something else? If we are interested in his political positions it's more helpful to provide examples that show his general stances on issues even if expressing those general stances doesn't cause controversies. In most cases the controversies, which is what your sources are covering, are because he expressed a general stance in a way that offended a group. Look at the Rittenhouse example, his general position could be summed up as the police and government have a responsibility to protect citizens and their property. That is a general stance (and one I assume Carlson would have). My interpretation of his Rittenhouse comments is the government (local, state, federal etc) wasn't providing that protection and thus he didn't think it was surprising that armed citizens would fill the void with the sort of result we saw. If we covered the Rittenhouse material in the mold of your added content we would say Carlson's political position is "17 year olds should shoot take up arms and shoot rioters". Of course that is a ludicrous position but so is the idea that this added content somehow is a summary of his views on defense. It in now way could be considered a summary of is position. Springee (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- You may claim that I have missed the point, but I think I am on a different point altogether. You frame this as a
- This is why political views of Tucker Carlson is nessecary, as a political commentator his views are important but news events such as this, not to mention statements by Carlson which get reported on like this are all too frequent, shouldn't take pride of place on the mainline article. I'd say move to the aforementioned article. CaliIndie (talk) 09:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- But this isn't a "political view", its a specific complaint and reply. It doesn't tell us about his feelings on how our military should be used, equipped, funded, deployed etc. A comment that we should avoid entanglements that don't directly impact us is a political position on defense but perhaps doesn't generate a bunch of click baity outrange articles. This sort of low value content being called a "political position" is why that article needs to go. Political positions are high level and knowing them should allow someone to understand how the subject will react to various specific circumstances. Knowing that a person is prone to violent outbursts might help us understand how they would respond to someone trying to pick a fight in a bar. Knowing that someone was in a bar fight doesn't tell us if they are prone to fighting or if they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Springee (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- There's room for specifics but you can't tell him Carlson considering funding for women's maternity flight suits wasteful isn't a position of some kind, in our modern age it certainly is. I agree with you it shouldn't be here, but I do think it deserves placement elsewhere, being on the other article. I don't think Rittenhouse is nessecary on either, but you're using a false equivalency in that case. CaliIndie (talk) 20:09, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- But this isn't a "political view", its a specific complaint and reply. It doesn't tell us about his feelings on how our military should be used, equipped, funded, deployed etc. A comment that we should avoid entanglements that don't directly impact us is a political position on defense but perhaps doesn't generate a bunch of click baity outrange articles. This sort of low value content being called a "political position" is why that article needs to go. Political positions are high level and knowing them should allow someone to understand how the subject will react to various specific circumstances. Knowing that a person is prone to violent outbursts might help us understand how they would respond to someone trying to pick a fight in a bar. Knowing that someone was in a bar fight doesn't tell us if they are prone to fighting or if they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Springee (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I think you missed the point. This is a RECENT and thus far very minor controversy for a public figure who has been involved in many controversies. Thus what makes this one significant enough to be DUE for inclusion at all? Do we see a loss of advertisers or dozens of articles criticizing him? Will people look back on this even a year from now and think this is a significant example of Carlson's views towards the military/defense? The difference in levels of detail here vs the POV fork article are small. If that is all the difference is ever going to be the other article should be merged back into this one as even this one is in danger of just becoming a laundry list of minor controversies. Springee (talk) 06:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- This reflects his view of women in the military. This is not rocket science. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Why do you think that? Do we have any other examples of Carlson saying things about women in the military? It seems this is specifically about maternity issues and women in the military. So based on this how would we summarize his views? If we can't then this isn't good content for a "views on" section. Springee (talk) 14:18, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- He disapproves of changes to accommodate women in the military. 10 words. starship.paint (exalt) 14:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Carlson does not need to have published a treatise on women in the military for his views on the subject to be delineated. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Why do you think that? Do we have any other examples of Carlson saying things about women in the military? It seems this is specifically about maternity issues and women in the military. So based on this how would we summarize his views? If we can't then this isn't good content for a "views on" section. Springee (talk) 14:18, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Here below we have a wide range of sources, from news agencies, major newspapers, television outlets, news websites, and military-related publications. I'm sure this level of coverage would be more than enough to qualify as a notable political view. starship.paint (exalt) 14:39, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Sources
|
---|
- Your list of sources doesn't address several issues. First is RECENT, which in a world of click to pay based add revenue means a cheep to write story like this is going to get a lot of short term press. Is this going to have any staying power or any long term impact on Carlson? Likely no, just another thing he said that causes a controversy the next morning. The second issue is that this is a controversial statement/claim. You haven't said how this reflects is his views on defense. If you can't summarize the point then it shouldn't be in an article that is meant to be a summary, not a laundry list. Certainly we can take this to BLP and ask people there. Springee (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- First, media don't write about Carlson like this every week. If they did, this wouldn't be special. Second, I've said above:
He disapproves of changes to accommodate women in the military
. That is one of his views on Defense. starship.paint (exalt) 14:56, 12 March 2021 (UTC)- I just did a Google news search for "Tucker Carlson". It says 11,800,000 hits. If we assume he has been on the air for 22 years that works out to be 1/2 million hits per year or about 1470 hits per day. I get that many of those are Tucker's own articles or Google's phantom hits but seriously, that's a lot of hits. At some point we have to decide which aren't DUE. Perhaps a way to do that is at the end of each year we cull the list but we certainly can't keep them all. Springee (talk) 15:14, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- First, media don't write about Carlson like this every week. If they did, this wouldn't be special. Second, I've said above:
I agree that this material is UNDUE and shouldn't be in the encyclopedic entry for this BLP. BLP's are not a collection of tabloid news stories carrying the topics of the day. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- If we are presenting views we wouldn't phrase it, "In March 2021, Carlson criticized changes being made to the U.S. military to accommodate female soldiers, calling it a "mockery of the U.S. military"." It would be something like Carlson disagrees with changes made to U.S. military policy regarding...." And it would be useful to know what changes he objected to and why before launching into criticism about his criticism. Does he think women should not serve in the military or that their numbers should restricted or that they shouldn't fight when pregnant? Is there any support for his position? Since it's his position, why do we care that others disagree with it? It seems more likely that this is one of numerous controversial things Carlson has said and we can't list them all. TFD (talk) 22:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Recentism and the Texas blackout
Soibangla, your change of the section heading to "views" doesn't make this content DUE.[[13]] We really need a better way to deal with sorting out which provocative statements of the day should/should not be included. Regardless, this comment on Texas's power grid issues is not a "view" on the environment. Springee (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- The whole addition violates WP:NPOV, it doesn't give any explanation into Carlson's view and instead segways into why his view, whatever it may be, is wrong. I'd remove purely for that reason alone. CaliIndie (talk) 20:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Agree with this, non-encyclopedic content that should not be in the article. What, exactly, is the "view" and how is that not just the journalist's opinion? Mr Ernie (talk) 01:19, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- Same, agree with Springee, CaliIndie & Mr Ernie. Seems like WP:RECENTISM. What I've been saying on similar posts that deal with this exact same problem is just give the content in question the 10 year test ( WP:10YT. If nobody will care in 10 years , it doesn't belong in an article. We always have to remember this is an Encyclopedia which is different than a celebrity blog that WP:COATRACKs every single controversial thing somebody does. Thats my thoughts. EliteArcher88 (talk) 23:50, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Change subtopic Views to Notable Statements (or similar)
I'm not a fan of loading up the article with a laundry list of things Carlson has said that got someone beating away at the keyboard. Part of the problem is we have these items in a section titled "views" which would suggest we are going to summarize his views on major topics (we don't). What if we changed the name to what this section really is, a subtopic containing notable statements (and reactions). Those who have read my comments above will note that one of concerns with so many of the additions is even a DUE "controversy of the week" may not accurately or with anything remotely comprehensively summarize Carlson's view on any subject. A "shock statement" talking about say a new law to help minority owed businesses may only be a reflection of his opinion of that law, not the broader topic. So does it make sense to change the name from "Views" to "Notable public statements"? With such a structure the items could be sorted by their ostensible topic vs what underling view may be driving the comments. This wouldn't specifically a criticism section thus comments that got a lot of support could also be included. It also makes it easier to justify the current disconnected style of prose. The section really doesn't have a hierarchical structure, most paragraphs are all but unrelated to the next. "Notable statements" fits that sort of paragraph list format better. Springee (talk) 05:50, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- Springee, this sounds reasonable to me. Perhaps title it "Views and commentary" or "Views and reactions". Logical summaries of his views under this heading could include notable instances that set off a severe backlash or are seen as major departures from norms. Llll5032 (talk) 06:18, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- "Notable public statements" sounds better than "Views", which is just so monstrously generic and all-encompassing it's laughable it's been kept for as long as it has. But what would be left of the current section if we were to execute this? CaliIndie (talk) 06:50, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- Probably all of it. It would be more inclusive, not less. Llll5032 (talk) 09:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think the majority of what is here would fall under "notable public statements" though, and it's going to become difficult to decipher what is notable and what isn't notable. Until a deletion proposal occurs for political views of Tucker Carlson, it isn't proactive just ignoring it. We should ideally keep "notable public statements" to comments on widely reported incidents. CaliIndie (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- My intent would be the content stays the same, we just make the header more broadly inclusive. What about Notable Comments and Commentary? Commentary can include the comments of others about Carlson's statements. I mean this isn't an ideal solution since it seems like a category to create a list but since we have so many instances of content that aren't really "views" it seems like a realistic patch. If nothing else it makes for a better catch all. Springee (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I quite like the idea of "Commentary" or something along those lines as the header replacement, considering he is a political commentator, it works itself out rather nicely. CaliIndie (talk) 15:06, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'd agree with "commentary", as it's definitely more inclusive, and avoids some of the pitfalls of calling something "notable" in prose. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 15:19, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- My intent would be the content stays the same, we just make the header more broadly inclusive. What about Notable Comments and Commentary? Commentary can include the comments of others about Carlson's statements. I mean this isn't an ideal solution since it seems like a category to create a list but since we have so many instances of content that aren't really "views" it seems like a realistic patch. If nothing else it makes for a better catch all. Springee (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think the majority of what is here would fall under "notable public statements" though, and it's going to become difficult to decipher what is notable and what isn't notable. Until a deletion proposal occurs for political views of Tucker Carlson, it isn't proactive just ignoring it. We should ideally keep "notable public statements" to comments on widely reported incidents. CaliIndie (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- Probably all of it. It would be more inclusive, not less. Llll5032 (talk) 09:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2021
Add in "Tucker Carlson is a white supremacist" or " Tucker Carlson actively supports white supremacists" 2600:1014:B10A:42A1:E44F:AE4E:2CEB:DAD2 (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Do you have any sources?Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Volteer1 (talk) 12:13, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Is it accurate to call Carlson a conspiracy theorist or promoter of conspiracy theories?
Hi all
The article currently talks about Carlson promoting several conspiracy theories on his TV series (the most watched cable show in the US) including white supremacy, QAnon, COVID denialism, anti vaccination and conspiracies around immigration, muslims and white genocide. Is it accurate to describe him as a conspiracy theorist or promoter of conspiracy theories? What specific rules define describing someone as a conspiracy theorist or not?
Here are some additional references I wasn't able to find being used in the article which speak about his conspiracy theories including a few I didn't see in the article e.g President Biden and his wife's marriage being fake:
- https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/may/04/tucker-carlson/tucker-carlson-says-coronavirus-isnt-deadly-we-tho/
- https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/06/fox-news-host-tucker-carlson-qanon-followers
- https://edition.cnn.com/videos/media/2021/03/12/tucker-carlson-women-in-military-fox-news-roll-the-tape-keilar-vpx.cnn
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/12/tucker-carlson-conspiracies-fox-news-dangerous/
- https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/fox-news-has-brand-new-conspiracy-for-joe-biden-era
- https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/tucker-carlson-goes-full-conspiracy-044020213.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMkfYP5MhKoe2sHT-n4LXKqfyKCwebcXbtCw9ZBU4HZ8-Px04LAbDAQsNKe87NBTcWgSy4UzRiPerAf_0PelpjK-Lyq5OjpMPXvCdJgJz-F51EUouBu7sERhMMYJ1TXOwsqYihaYs0yyKTGKlJNEUbMUXJCDwU7uoP78OtPAm_7Q
- https://www.good.is/tucker-carlson-joe-jill-biden-marriage
- https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-tucker-carlson-defends-qanon-conspiracy-theory-movement-2021-1?r=US&IR=T
- https://www.thedailybeast.com/john-oliver-breaks-down-why-tucker-carlson-is-a-white-supremacist
- https://slate.com/culture/2021/03/last-week-tonight-john-oliver-tucker-carlson.html (the video linked in the piece)
Thanks
John Cummings (talk) 12:46, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Do RS say he does, if they do so do we.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with this. Make sure that we don't overstate it. Some of these sources say something more like "he defended a conspiracy theory", or that he speculated sarcastically, or they are opinion columnists who might not be entirely RS. In some cases it may be more appropriate to say he has defended conspiracy theorists. But if many RSs are using the phrase "conspiracy theorist" to describe him then so should we. Llll5032 (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- It's OR to gather examples of where someone has repeated conspiracy theories and conclude that they are a conspiracy theorist or that they promote conspiracy theories. We would need to show that this is how one is normally described in reliable sources. We don't say for example the Dick Cheney is a convicted criminal who served as VP of the U.S. because that would not be seen as an impartial tone. Normally the description is used for noted conspiracy theorists such as Alex Jones and David Icke. TFD (talk) 13:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks The Four Deuces, a couple of questions:
- I don't understand why collating examples of his numerous promotions of existing conspiracy theories and his creation new ones cannot accurately be summarised as 'promoter of conspiracy theories' or 'conspiracy theorist'. Why do you think this would be original research and not Wikipedia:Summary style?
- How to deal with his promotion of conspiracy theories within the main body of the article. Currently the fact he promotes conspiracy theories is partially included within the 'Commentary' section and also described in the article Political views of Tucker Carlson, however it jumps between personal views e.g he described himself as conservative and conspiracy theories he promotes eg climate change denial. Its unclear which are personal views and which are talking points for his TV show. Would it be better to create a specific section on promotion of conspiracy theories? I'm aware of at least 15 he has promoted and even a few which appear to be his creations e.g "there was no physical evidence that George Floyd was murdered by a cop".
- John Cummings (talk) 21:09, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks The Four Deuces, a couple of questions:
- "Conspiracy theory" seems to have become a catchall term among some left-wing media outlets for "a view we disagree with". So, for example, the view that snowfalls will still happen 50 years from now is spun into some sort of conspiracy theory. I haven't seen a single actual conspiracy theory that Carlson has promoted - only standard conservative political views, plus even more anodyne stuff like "QAnon supporters seem to be well-behaved people". Korny O'Near (talk) 21:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- When you call Carlson a conspiracy theorist or promoter of conspiracy theories you are implicitly stating that there is a pattern or that he has attained notoriety from this. While that may or may not be true, you should have an expert source that reports this conclusion. In fact Exceptional claims were require more than a few isolated examples. If reliable sources don't routinely refer to Carlson as a conspiracy theorist, then I would ask why we should.
- Most Republican politicians believe and promote many of the same conspiracy theories that Carlson does, yet we don't routinely call them conspiracy theorists. Maybe that is what they should be called, but policy requires us to follow descriptions generally used in reliable sources, rather than our own.
- As I said above, instead of a rap sheet that leads readers to inevitable conclusions, we should use reliable secondary sources that describe Carslon in general terms and use a select number of his statements to illustrate that. If the sources don't exist, the solution is to wait until they are available, if ever.
- To answer the last editor, the term conspiracy theory is overused in corporate media, so that the reliability of their claims is sometimes dubious. I would only use the description if it was sourced to an expert. Articles about conspiracy theories such as Q-Anon can be sourced to experts and they also provide us with information about the main proponents. That's why we are able to call Alex Jones and David Icke conspiracy theorists.
- TFD (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Not as of yet weighing in on this proposal itself, but in response to this specific comment, it's worth noting that Carlson is mentioned as having (directly or indirectly) fueled the White genocide conspiracy theory, the conspiracy regarding the Murder of Seth Rich, various COVID-19 conspiracy theories, as well as some of the conspiracies surrounding the 2020 Presidential election. All in reliable sources, including some academic ones. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- "Fueled a conspiracy theory" is quite a nebulous accusation. What specifically has he said? Korny O'Near (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- Not as of yet weighing in on this proposal itself, but in response to this specific comment, it's worth noting that Carlson is mentioned as having (directly or indirectly) fueled the White genocide conspiracy theory, the conspiracy regarding the Murder of Seth Rich, various COVID-19 conspiracy theories, as well as some of the conspiracies surrounding the 2020 Presidential election. All in reliable sources, including some academic ones. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- I appreciate that and there may well be a pattern, but policy requires that we can only say there is a pattern if that conclusion has been reported in reliable sources. Per Wikipedia:No original research, "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." Per Synthesis of published material, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." This is particularly important, since it is a Biography of a living person. It says, "Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that...is an original interpretation or analysis of a source, or a synthesis of sources." TFD (talk) 20:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
About Trump
Llll5032, I see you are putting a good bit of effort into the article. It looks like balanced work to boot. One small thing, this material[[14]] looks like something that is opinion/commentary on the part of the NYT. I don't mean it's an Op-Ed but it's the opinion of the writer. It might be good to attribute the view to the NYT or the article author. I don't think it's something that should be in wiki-voice. Springee (talk) 03:51, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- I noticed about the time I posted this you added a second source. I would still suggest we treat this as a shared opinion. Perhaps "sources saw Carlson as" or similar. Springee (talk) 03:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- Can we aptly summarize this in the article? As it stands, it just says he an exemplar "anti-anti-Trump" person, I don't know most readers are going to understand that at all. CaliIndie (talk) 13:45, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't read the sources so I'm just guessing but what about saying "Sources note [I think this is a good term but "note" is often contested] that Carlson frequently attack critics of President Trump" or "Carlson was seen as defending President Trump by attacking the President's critics". I don't see why we need to retain the confusing "anti-anti-Trump" term. That seems like kind of convoluted language. Springee (talk) 14:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Wife's maiden name and year of marriage
"Susan Andrews" is named twice in the article body, once in a sentence attributed to this source and again in a sentence attributed to this source. The former appears to refer to her only as "Susie" (implying but not directly stating that she now goes by Carlson, something stated in the sentence attributed to the other source, but not mentioning "Andrews" anywhere); the latter refers to her as "Susan Anderson" and very strongly implies they were married at some point after he graduated college in 1992. There is apparently a separate source, not linked, for the following sentence, which is presented as "Weddings/East: Andrews-Carlson". Detroit Free Press. August 28, 1991.
but if that source is available, couldn't it be referring to a different Carlson who married someone named Andrews in Detroit in 1991? This appears to be the worst kind of OR/SYNTH, but am I just mistaken?
This source (which seems much better than either the WP source or the CJR, as it is more in-depth and has at least been cited on Last Week Tonight) says they were married when he was a college senior
, so it's possible they were married in 1991, but we need to locate a source that actually says that the Tucker Carlson of Fox News fame (as opposed to some man or woman with the last name Carlson in East Detroit?) was married in 1991.
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:08, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm pretty confident the author the of CJR article miraculously bungled two bits of detail in a row, no source refers to her as "Susan Anderson" or attests that he married her in 1992 anywhere else. This profile in People says Carlson graduated in 1991 and asked for her father for her hand in marriage six months before graduation.[1] CaliIndie (talk) 14:15, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Dougherty, Steve (November 6, 2000). "Meet Mister Right". People. Retrieved March 16, 2021.
"Tucker"'s actual name
I know that "Tucker" is his stage name, and that US-ians are world leaders in inventing words and names, but what is his real name? "Tucker" isn't an actual name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.190.224.47 (talk) 14:00, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2021
RE: Tucker Carlson Television Career
Specifically, his lawyers argued that Carlson's statements were just "loose, figurative or hyperbolic." Carlson's use of the word "extort," was nondefamatory because it was only "rhetorical hyperbole, a vigorous epithet." Moreover, this means Carlson Tucker is not running a news program and is therefore an entertaining pundit and talk show host who's beliefs and comments are not to be factually or credibly believed by the majority of the American public. Carlson is therefore only clowning around and titillating his viewers with fantasy, fables and tall tales purely of his own making and viewpoint without need for unbiased or even factual journalistic integrity of any kind. 2603:6000:A346:76CE:E154:4671:CF72:5069 (talk) 15:07, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
- Well we go with what RS say.Slatersteven (talk) 15:09, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't actually see an edit requested here, so I'm closing it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
IP editor: If you have a source that supports that was his lawyer's argument then I think we should include it. However, we can't speculate and we need a source that is reliable per WP:RS guidelines. Springee (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Category:Trumpists has been nominated for discussion
Category:Trumpists has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 07:29, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Political views of Tucker Carlson article was created by a sockpuppet
CaliIndie[15] is a sockpuppet. Should the article they created be deleted? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:12, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- At least not under CSD. This edit by User:Starship.paint probably well meets the
no substantial edits by others
criteria of G5. GMGtalk 15:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC) - There was a lot of discussion and support in favour of deleting the article in the section above, though no one ever got around to it. It seems as well no one has yet attempted to remove the content from this article that is duplicated in the ancillary article. There just doesn't seem to be a need for it. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 15:47, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- I already favored deleting. My opinion hasn't changed. Springee (talk) 18:11, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yes to deleting. TC's views belong in this article, not a different one. Llll5032 (talk) 18:16, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- And we could bring the information added there by User:Starship.paint into this article.
- The article is now up for deletion. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 06:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Which is it??
The introduction contradicts itself pretty badly.
In one sentence, his brief "advertising boycotts" implied they destroyed his career, yet later on goes on to correct himself showing he hosts the most watched cable news show on television in the country. Which is it?
Fox News Beats MSNBC And CNN In Ratings
'Here Are the Top Cable News Shows of Q1 2021
"https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/here-are-the-top-cable-news-shows-of-q1-2021/475418/"
Fox News Beats CNN, MSNBC in Ratings
"https://www.thewrap.com/fox-news-beats-cnn-msnbc-in-ratings-for-biden-primetime-address/"
FNC Ranks as Top-Rated Cable Network Post-Inauguration to Date and Number One in all of Cable Year to Date in Primetime Total Viewers
"https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210302006022/en/FOX-News-Channel-Dominates-February-as-Top-rated-Cable-Network-in-Primetime-Total-Viewers" --173.61.90.144 (talk) 00:35, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Note: you wont find NYT, Wapo, NBC, CNN, or NRP (state run media.. ie Vox = a millennial watered down Wapo offsoot offered to Ezra Klein after getting fired for the the "journolist" scandal. "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList" while "woorking" for Wapo. - Not to mention the #2, Jeff Toobin involved here - who refused to admit to an affair and pay child support - still both held as a reliable sources? wikpiedia for you. When 90+% of these left-wing Journolo-listsers" and most liberal arts pros(the most noble people on earth to the average wikiepdian editor) are all registered Democrats who voted for Obama, Hillary, and Biden in that exact order.. why hide it unless you have bias yourself and show your true colors? Keep abusing wiki.
- It does? it seems to be saying that whilst advertising left, viewing figures went up, advertisers and viewers are not synonymous.Slatersteven (talk) 11:10, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2021
In the last paragraph of the section entitled "Tucker Carlson Tonight (2016–present)." please,
change
"between him and Fox News for him to host"
to
"with Fox News to host"
I am certain of future readers' gratitude if they knew what they were spared. 69.251.152.73 (talk) 05:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Done, that did make for a needlessly complicated sentence structure. AngryHarpytalk 05:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Great Replacement
You know that time when Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote Jordan Peterson's philosophy into the mouth of The Red Skull?
Imagine if you will the reaction when people realize that Tucker Carlson's new writer (who replaced the one sacked for being a white supremacist) has been working elements of white supremacist mass shooter manifestos into his monologues. https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1381236305514860546 Guy (help! - typo?) 19:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC)