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::Agree with R2 here: we should not use an opinion piece to cite facts. Besides, it's questionable whether the ODNI report "confirmed" what Steele was saying. The more likely explanation is that they both used similar language to describe activities picked up from the same leads. In other words, they came to the same conclusions ≠ the latter confirmed the former. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 02:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC) |
::Agree with R2 here: we should not use an opinion piece to cite facts. Besides, it's questionable whether the ODNI report "confirmed" what Steele was saying. The more likely explanation is that they both used similar language to describe activities picked up from the same leads. In other words, they came to the same conclusions ≠ the latter confirmed the former. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 02:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:::I also agree, particularly in light of [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/steele-dossier-mueller-report.html this NYTimes] article which states: {{xt|"— that while many Trump aides had welcomed contacts with the Russians, some of the most sensational claims in the dossier appeared to be false, and others were impossible to prove"}}. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D"><sup>Atsme</sup></span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Atsme|<small>Talk</small>]]</sub> [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 03:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC) |
:::I also agree, particularly in light of [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/steele-dossier-mueller-report.html this NYTimes] article which states: {{xt|"— that while many Trump aides had welcomed contacts with the Russians, some of the most sensational claims in the dossier appeared to be false, and others were impossible to prove"}}. [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D"><sup>Atsme</sup></span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Atsme|<small>Talk</small>]]</sub> [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 03:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:::: We have already discussed exactly that wording ("some of the most sensational claims in the dossier appeared to be false"), and that discussion is now archived [[Talk:Trump–Russia_dossier/Archive_17#New_NYT_piece,_part_2|here]]. We can't use a NY Times quote that is patently false on two counts: (1) the Mueller report does not say that, and (2) even the most sensational claim (the alleged pee tape) has not been "proven false". It is currently unconfirmed, but the Mueller Report does provide confirmation that Russians do possess compromising tapes, without letting us know if any of them is the "pee tape". We just don't know. Unconfirmed does not equal false. -- [[User:BullRangifer|BullRangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 05:12, 12 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== MOST of the dossier remains unverified (as of May 2019) == |
== MOST of the dossier remains unverified (as of May 2019) == |
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Gillette column
- Gillette, Robert (January 27, 2017). "My Turn: Inside the Trump dossier". Concord Monitor.
The question is whether this source is reliable for these facts. I believe the answer is no. In general, opinion sources published by newspapers, such as columns (btw, this is not an op-ed), are subjected to a lower level of fact-checking scrutiny by the editorial staff of the newspaper, in this case the Concord Monitor (not the LA Times). The fact that the author had been an LA Times reporter in the 1980s is pretty much irrelevant. The appropriate inquiry is whether his columns enjoy a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, e.g. if they've been cited for facts by other reliable sources. Without evidence of that, we must presume that the source is not reliable. R2 (bleep) 17:24, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- not for facts, but it would be for attributed opinion.Slatersteven (talk) 17:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- Right, we're talking about facts here. R2 (bleep) 17:30, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- It is being used for attributed opinion, we do not say in Wikipedias voice it is true.Slatersteven (talk) 17:33, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- No, whether a "factual assertion" has been "verified" is a matter of fact, not opinion. R2 (bleep) 17:47, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- And that is what we say "X has said" we do not say "X is the situation".Slatersteven (talk) 06:55, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- I think this response reflects a misunderstanding of how verifiability and neutrality work. If you agree that "whether a factual assertion has been verified" is a fact, then we can't magically turn it into an opinion simply by adding in-text attribution. Otherwise that would be an end-run around WP:V. Our neutrality policy specifically forbids us from treating facts as opinion or vice versa. R2 (bleep) 18:00, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- And that is what we say "X has said" we do not say "X is the situation".Slatersteven (talk) 06:55, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- No, whether a "factual assertion" has been "verified" is a matter of fact, not opinion. R2 (bleep) 17:47, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- It is being used for attributed opinion, we do not say in Wikipedias voice it is true.Slatersteven (talk) 17:33, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- Right, we're talking about facts here. R2 (bleep) 17:30, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
R2, I hope you're not trying to make a case against using attributed opinions at Wikipedia, because that is not policy. In this case, the opinion is unquestionably factual, so even though I believe it's good to attribute it, doing so can even undermine it to make the facts it states appear to be mere opinions the reader can question or ignore. In some cases, we don't attribute clearly factual opinions for that reason. This is plainly factual, so should be included, and with the attribution, I don't see a problem. It's a bit wordy, so stripping it of some of the fluffy attribution was a good idea. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- I think you're misunderstanding my position. I'm saying that the source isn't reliable. We usually don't treat newspaper columns as reliable, though there are exceptions to this general rule. Please explain why you think the source is reliable. R2 (bleep) 18:03, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, we do it all the time. Local newspapers are considered RS, just like the NYT and WaPo. We actually cover this subject in the article, but what's special about this is that he points out a proven fact: A major theme of the dossier was true and confirmed six months later by the ODNI assessment. It's that confirmation by ODNI that's interesting. Schiff makes a similar point about ODNI: "On November 15, 2017, Adam Schiff stated that much of the dossier's content is about Russian efforts to help Trump, and those allegations "turned out to be true", something later affirmed by the January 6, 2017, intelligence community assessment released by the ODNI.[107]"
- There is no doubt Gillette is correct. If there was some doubt about what he wrote, or that it was controversial, then one might have some sort of reason to question the use of the source, but I don't see it. I fully agree that there was too much fluff around it, and that's easy to fix. One way to fix that is to cut to the chase and state it as fact with no attribution. (We'd never do that with controversial content or just an opinion.) If we must have attribution, it can be added at the end (see the parantheses at the end of my version). Let me see if I can produce a better version.
- Current content:
Referring to the ODNI assessment, former Los Angeles Times Moscow correspondent Robert Gillette wrote in an op-ed in the Concord Monitor that the dossier has had at least one of its main factual assertions verified, that "Russia’s combined cyber and propaganda operation was directed personally by Putin, with the aim of harming Hillary Clinton’s candidacy and helping Trump." According to Gillette, "Steele's dossier, paraphrasing multiple sources, reported precisely the same conclusion, in greater detail, six months earlier, in a memo dated June 20."[1]
- New version:
The January 6, 2017, ODNI assessment confirmed one of the dossier's main assertions when it stated: "Russia's combined cyber and propaganda operation was directed personally by Putin, with the aim of harming Hillary Clinton's candidacy and helping Trump." The dossier had described these facts in greater detail six months earlier in a memo dated June 20, 2016. (,a fact pointed out by Robert Gillette.)[1]
- How's that? It's much shorter and does not present fact as opinion. Presenting factual opinions as mere "opinions" poisons the well and serves to undermine the factual nature of the content. It allows readers to feel they can just ignore the opinions, when in fact they should not because they are facts. Facts should not be presented as opinions. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:13, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Sources
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- You're still not getting my point. I'm saying that the source isn't reliable and shouldn't be cited for that point, no matter how we present it. I think you're confusing truth and verifiability. I'm not disputing the truth of what Gillette said. What I dispute is that we should be relying on Gillette to make that point. We should not be using unreliable sources to support factual content in our articles, regardless of whether that factual content is true or false. Period. It undermines the credibility of the article. Moreover, arguing that we should cite an unreliable source because its assertion is true is exactly what we (and you) tell
conspiracy theorists*cough* other editors not to do practically every day. R2 (bleep) 16:48, 10 May 2019 (UTC) - As for a solution, the Gillette quote is redundant with what we already have from ABC News. So I suggest we simply delete it. R2 (bleep) 16:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- Whoa! Now you're calling it an unreliable source. Where is that coming from? That's a pretty serious charge. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:57, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- You're still not getting my point. I'm saying that the source isn't reliable and shouldn't be cited for that point, no matter how we present it. I think you're confusing truth and verifiability. I'm not disputing the truth of what Gillette said. What I dispute is that we should be relying on Gillette to make that point. We should not be using unreliable sources to support factual content in our articles, regardless of whether that factual content is true or false. Period. It undermines the credibility of the article. Moreover, arguing that we should cite an unreliable source because its assertion is true is exactly what we (and you) tell
I think this needs taking to RSN for a wider view.Slatersteven (talk) 17:13, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'll give other editors a bit more time to weigh in. R2 (bleep) 17:17, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with R2 here: we should not use an opinion piece to cite facts. Besides, it's questionable whether the ODNI report "confirmed" what Steele was saying. The more likely explanation is that they both used similar language to describe activities picked up from the same leads. In other words, they came to the same conclusions ≠ the latter confirmed the former. — JFG talk 02:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
- I also agree, particularly in light of this NYTimes article which states: "— that while many Trump aides had welcomed contacts with the Russians, some of the most sensational claims in the dossier appeared to be false, and others were impossible to prove". Atsme Talk 📧 03:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
- We have already discussed exactly that wording ("some of the most sensational claims in the dossier appeared to be false"), and that discussion is now archived here. We can't use a NY Times quote that is patently false on two counts: (1) the Mueller report does not say that, and (2) even the most sensational claim (the alleged pee tape) has not been "proven false". It is currently unconfirmed, but the Mueller Report does provide confirmation that Russians do possess compromising tapes, without letting us know if any of them is the "pee tape". We just don't know. Unconfirmed does not equal false. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:12, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
- I also agree, particularly in light of this NYTimes article which states: "— that while many Trump aides had welcomed contacts with the Russians, some of the most sensational claims in the dossier appeared to be false, and others were impossible to prove". Atsme Talk 📧 03:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with R2 here: we should not use an opinion piece to cite facts. Besides, it's questionable whether the ODNI report "confirmed" what Steele was saying. The more likely explanation is that they both used similar language to describe activities picked up from the same leads. In other words, they came to the same conclusions ≠ the latter confirmed the former. — JFG talk 02:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
MOST of the dossier remains unverified (as of May 2019)
As of this month, a large majority of the dossier still remains unverified. I attempted to correct the text in the lead but user VolunteerMarek claimed it was "original research". This is factually incorrect and backed up by reliable sources including the NYT. According to this article [1] : "the F.B.I. still could not vouch for much of the dossier" "Mueller’s report contained over a dozen passing references to the document’s claims but no overall assessment of why so much did not check out" Over the past two years reliable sources have shown most (a large majority) of the dossier has not been verified or corroborated. Just in the past month, David Ignatius and Bob Woodward, two highly-respected establishment journalists who are not fans of Trump, have also cast doubt about most or all of the dossier's contents. Woodward recently stated: "the dossier, which really has got a lot of garbage in it, and Mueller found that to be the case...real intelligence experts looked at this and said no, this is not intelligence, this is garbage and they took it out. But in this process, the idea that they would include something like that in one of the great stellar intelligence assessments as Mueller also found out is highly questionable." Also there is speculation that parts of the dossier came from disinformation planted by the Russians, according to the NYT.Circulair (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
- "Much" does not mean "most." Is there a specific source that supports "most?" R2 (bleep) 23:36, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Treatment of the dossier by the press
- There are many claims the Dossier makes that are impossible to disprove. When such claims are made by Trump or Trump supporters, the press reports it as "Trump claims, without any evidence, that..." or something along those lines. When there's a claim that is negative towards Trump, then the onus somehow shifts to someone trying to disprove that claim, instead of the claimer backing it up with any evidence.
- Steele claimed, without any evidence, that Cohen went to Prague, that Trump had prostitutes pee in a bed used by Obama, that Page was an intermediary with Russia, that Page met with the president of Rosneft, that Trump paid bribes and engaged in sexual activities in St. Petersburg (yes, our Wikipedia article states openly that Trump held sex parties in St. Petersburg), etc, etc, etc. There's not a shred of evidence for any of this, and there's really no way to disprove any of it.
- My favorite line in the article is "Jane Mayer said that this part of the dossier [referring to the Page-Rosneft meeting] seems true, even if the name of an official may have been wrong." So even though the claim was wrong, it is still true? How does that work? The Dossier claimed Page met with a guy named Igor Sechin. Well it turns out he didn't meet with Sechin, but actually other Russians officials. But that doesn't stop our cited source Newsweek calling this claim "verified."
- Steele himself intended the Dossier to be taken as raw, unverified intelligence to be used as opposition research, but here on Wikipedia it is treated as gospel, and that's unlikely to change any time soon. Think about this - Papadopolous' trouble started when he stated that he heard Russia had dirt on Clinton, but here we've got this whole big ordeal by non Americans (a British ex-spy and Russian sources) to generate dirt on Trump. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- "that Page was an intermediary with Russia, that Page met with the president of Rosneft" - if you want to be precise, he did meet with head of investor relations at Rosfnet as well as senior officials in Putin's government. Getting the details wrong while being right about the big picture is how it works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- The Dossier claims he met with Sechin. It turns out he actually didn't mean with Sechin, but with someone else. Therefore the claim is not true. I don't understand how Newsweek and therefore our article can say it is "verified." Mr Ernie (talk) 11:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Context matters. Remember that Page lied about all of this. That proves his consciousness of guilt. At first, he denied meetings at Rosneft, then denied meeting officials, then, under oath, he finally had to admit he did meet at Rosneft and did meet with Sechin's representative, and even had to admit that sanctions may have been discussed, as alleged. Even under oath he hemmed and hawed, making very hedged and incomplete admissions. That is the behavior of someone who is obviously trying to avoid admitting the full truth. The basic essence of several aspects of the allegation is verified, even though, as our RS make clear, the exact person may not be verified. The source was an actual witness to the alleged acts, and they seem to have gotten it right.
- We are taking Page's word for not meeting Sechin (his statement should not be taken as factual), and since he lied about everything else, the allegation that he did meet with Sechin may still be true. There is no evidence that his denial is factual. "Unverified" does not mean "untrue". Since the witness seems to have described events proven to have happened, I tend to give the witness the benefit of the doubt, rather than Page, a proven liar about this incident. Keep in mind that the one person who was nearly certain to have been a witness, as "in the room", was murdered. When dealing with Putin, witnesses die. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:58, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- The Dossier claims he met with Sechin. It turns out he actually didn't mean with Sechin, but with someone else. Therefore the claim is not true. I don't understand how Newsweek and therefore our article can say it is "verified." Mr Ernie (talk) 11:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- "here on Wikipedia it is treated as gospel" - is it? How exactly? I remember when it first came out, it was almost impossible to get ANY but the most vague general info about it into any article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:27, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Even the allegations that have no documented evidence are still somehow taken as true. The way the denials section is written make it appear that some of these claims are also still true. There's no where I can find where anything has been corroborated about any of the claims about Trump and St. Petersburg, for example. If Trump was throwing wild sex parties then surely someone could have found somebody who went to one. The article now painstakingly lays out just about every one of the Dossier's allegations, and offers little to no proof that any of them actually happened. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:18, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- "Steele claimed, without any evidence" - how do you know it was "without any evidence"? Actually, he did have evidence. Maybe it was faulty, or imprecise, or incomplete, but he didn't just make it up. Reporting what the evidence said was exactly what he did.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:29, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Did you see his evidence? He released the dossier, without providing evidence that the claims were true. It's just like when Trump tweets something, the press reports it as "Trump tweeted, without any evidence..." But they don't know why he was saying something, or what briefing he heard it from, or if he got it from Fox News. Just like the now infamous Spygate tweet - Trump obviously had something told to him or reported that caused him to tweet that. It could have been "faulty, or imprecise, or incomplete" but Trump is likely not smart enough to come up with something like that on his own. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:21, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- "yes, our Wikipedia article states openly that Trump held sex parties in St. Petersburg" - can you show me where? If this is true, I'll remove it. Somehow I doubt it though.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Section 3.4 - "That Trump has pursued real estate deals in St Petersburg, and "paid bribes there to further his interests". That witnesses to his "sex parties in the city" had been "'silenced' i.e. bribed or coerced to disappear." The proper way to handle claims such as this is to hang a sentence after it that there is until now no corroborating evidence of any of this. Currently the structure is claims, denials, veracity. I wonder if it makes more sense to go ahead and list the veracity or lack thereof directly with the claim, as not to mislead the reader. The lead says some of have been proven, some unverified, and one rejected by Mueller but it requires a lot of reading to figure out which claim goes in which category. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:22, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Wow! I think there is some confusion here. Wikipedia is not making that claim. Not at all. It is clearly just documenting the claims made by Steele's sources and is presenting them as allegations. That's what we do here. We even include the denials by the persons involved, if they have made denials. That's what WP:PUBLICFIGURE requires (thanks to my addition of that to the policy). -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- The idea of attaching the veracity to each claim, when possible, is not entirely unwarranted. We just need to figure a good way to do it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- I think this more accurately sums up what I was trying to communicate. At the moment I don't have many ideas about how to do it succinctly or accurate, but let me think about it. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- FWIW, I agree with the idea of telling readers the state of validity of each claim (proven/disproven/unclear) right at the point where we describe the claim. Of course we need a good recent source for each explaining such status. — JFG talk 00:42, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- As they say...wait for it...Atsme Talk 📧 01:36, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- In some cases we already know. There is also another matter, but I'll start a separate thread for it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:49, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- As they say...wait for it...Atsme Talk 📧 01:36, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- FWIW, I agree with the idea of telling readers the state of validity of each claim (proven/disproven/unclear) right at the point where we describe the claim. Of course we need a good recent source for each explaining such status. — JFG talk 00:42, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
- I think this more accurately sums up what I was trying to communicate. At the moment I don't have many ideas about how to do it succinctly or accurate, but let me think about it. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- The idea of attaching the veracity to each claim, when possible, is not entirely unwarranted. We just need to figure a good way to do it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Wow! I think there is some confusion here. Wikipedia is not making that claim. Not at all. It is clearly just documenting the claims made by Steele's sources and is presenting them as allegations. That's what we do here. We even include the denials by the persons involved, if they have made denials. That's what WP:PUBLICFIGURE requires (thanks to my addition of that to the policy). -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- Section 3.4 - "That Trump has pursued real estate deals in St Petersburg, and "paid bribes there to further his interests". That witnesses to his "sex parties in the city" had been "'silenced' i.e. bribed or coerced to disappear." The proper way to handle claims such as this is to hang a sentence after it that there is until now no corroborating evidence of any of this. Currently the structure is claims, denials, veracity. I wonder if it makes more sense to go ahead and list the veracity or lack thereof directly with the claim, as not to mislead the reader. The lead says some of have been proven, some unverified, and one rejected by Mueller but it requires a lot of reading to figure out which claim goes in which category. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:22, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
- "that Page was an intermediary with Russia, that Page met with the president of Rosneft" - if you want to be precise, he did meet with head of investor relations at Rosfnet as well as senior officials in Putin's government. Getting the details wrong while being right about the big picture is how it works.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Anonymous sources for each claim
Following the same principle we are discussing above, that of attaching the verification status of each claim immediately after the claim, there is also the matter of the anonymous sources for each claim. Right now one would think that Steele is making the allegations, when most of the time he is not. He was just collecting raw information he received, organizing it, and sending it to Fusion GPS. Where possible, and the dossier often mentions it, we should identify the source for each claim.
For example, the first allegation we list is from page one of the dossier. It is alleged:
- That "Russian authorities" had cultivated Trump "for at least 5 years", and that the operation was "supported and directed" by Putin.[44][111] (Dossier, p. 1)
Instead we could write:
- It is alleged by Sources A and B that "Russian authorities" had cultivated Trump "for at least 5 years", and Source B alleges that the operation was "supported and directed" by Putin.[44][111] (Dossier, p. 1)
How's that? -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:59, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
CNN town hall with James Comey
Comey was the guest, and Anderson Cooper (plus questions from the audience) was the host. There is some interesting discussion about vetting the dossier. He also mentions how the Mueller report connects the "stopped the flow of tapes" to the salacious allegation about the pee tape:
- Town Hall Meeting with Former FBI Director James Comey. Aired May 9, 2019
It also has discussion about how the "whole episode with Strzok and Page, that it damaged the reputation of the FBI." That may be useful in another article -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)