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false info in first paragraph
having a different gender expression doesn't make you trans. if a man is feminine, he isn't trans. and if a trans woman is masculine, she's still a woman. your gender identity determines whether or not your trans, not your gender expression. Kutgut (talk) 22:30, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- Do you have a proposed change you want to meet to the article? The lead doesn’t currently say that having a different gender expression makes you trans, so I’m not sure what you’re saying here. I see no false information in the first paragraph; you’ll have to be more specific. Mathglot (talk) 23:17, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, I think maybe it does, although I doubt that this is the intention. Currently it says
"A transgender person (often abbreviated to trans person) is someone whose gender identity or gender expression does not correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth."
I don't want to put words into the OP's mouth but I think they would like us to remove"or gender expression"
. If so, I think that this is a valid request. There is nothing in the article body to support it and it seems incorrect. I'm sure that gender non-conforming people often get mistaken as trans and hence suffer some of the same discrimination as people who are recognisably trans but they are not actually trans. DanielRigal (talk) 00:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)- I agree as the existence of cis GNC people disproves said definition. A Socialist Trans Girl 09:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. Cis people can vary their gender expressions too. Funcrunch (talk) 00:19, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- This has been discussed before, probably longest at [1]. It seems that this language reflects what sources have to say on the matter. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- The new WPATH 8th edition standards for care, which was released early fall 2022 defines transgender as:
- TRANSGENDER or trans are umbrella terms used to de- scribe people whose gender identities and/or gender ex- pressions are not what is typically expected for the sex to which they were assigned at birth. These words should always be used as adjectives (as in “trans people”) and never as nouns (as in “transgenders”) and never as verbs (as in “transgendered”).Source
- Perhaps we could alter the wiki definition to better fit this more up to date language? 71.247.61.216 (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek What reliable sources say that cis GNC people do not exist? A Socialist Trans Girl 09:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- @A Socialist Trans Girl I didn't imply that? Obviously, cis folks can be GNC. I think we're in a bit of an odd spot due to what the sources have to say. This is a categorization problem. Trans folks are GNC, but not all GNC are trans. I agree that we could probably do a better job clarifying that. My first stab at it was to match the WPATH language better, which uses "and/or", not just or. Wikipedia of course does not use and/or WP:ANDOR, preferring "or both", so I've added an "or both". CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek Well the sentence "A transgender person is someone whose gender identity or gender expression or both do not conform to that typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth." has the explicit meaning that someone who's gender expression does not match the AGAB but their GI does, is trans, which would mean there are no cis GNC people, which is not the case. I'd say should remove the gender expression from the definition, as there are reliable sources of the existence of cis GNC people, and we could also add "Transgender people are also all GNC, though not all GNC people are transgender." to the lede. The addition of and/or doesn't really removed the issue with the current wording suggesting that there are no cis GNC people, so while some sources may include cis GNC people in their definitions, we should do a WP:IAR and remove it from the definition because doing so improves Wikipedia. A Socialist Trans Girl 02:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- I am sorry that I will sound strident, but I'm seeing this same sort of linguistic shenanigans across a huge swath of articles right now. This entire conversation is WP:OR and so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning. I use the first descriptor because there is not one single source cited that supports this change, much less a preponderance of reliable sources. As for 'so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning'...
- @A Socialist Trans Girl I didn't imply that? Obviously, cis folks can be GNC. I think we're in a bit of an odd spot due to what the sources have to say. This is a categorization problem. Trans folks are GNC, but not all GNC are trans. I agree that we could probably do a better job clarifying that. My first stab at it was to match the WPATH language better, which uses "and/or", not just or. Wikipedia of course does not use and/or WP:ANDOR, preferring "or both", so I've added an "or both". CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- This has been discussed before, probably longest at [1]. It seems that this language reflects what sources have to say on the matter. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, I think maybe it does, although I doubt that this is the intention. Currently it says
- In the English language, there are two disjoint and collectively exhaustive terms: You have/express/live a gender corresponding to your sex assigned at birth (cisgender), or you do not (transgender). Terms like cisgender and transgender are also called complementary antonyms. The 'cis' and 'trans' prefixes are a Latin complementary antonymic pair for the concept of "on this side" and "on that side". The natural usage of both English terms conforms to that Latin root. There is no, there literally can be no "on both sides at the same time".
- Now to address the argument I see coming of "well, maybe not both; but how about neither?" Rejecting the binary shackles of male/female sex and gender is important. Rejecting the actual rules of logic and linguistics is not. There is no "it's not on any side at all" concept in a disjoint and collectively exhaustive pair. Cis and trans are not simple opposites or a contrasting pair of terms (like left : right, or up : down) that are mutually exclusive but not exhaustive. Something can be 'even with' or 'parallel to', and 'in front of' or 'behind'; thus neither left nor right, up nor down. By the very definition and nature of the terms in question here, however, a person cannot be neither cis nor trans. Like the terms odd and even for non-zero numbers, there isn't another option on the linguistic menu unless we're making [redacted] up. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Last1in So what are you suggesting as the action item here? The status quo? Or? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 02:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not precisely; there is a lot that needs improvement in both the lede and the article body. I 100% believe, however, that gender expression (or, more precisely, nonconformity in gender expression) is a vital part of the definition of transgender. I have been trying to compose a lede with better flow (and less source contradiction) for consideration on this Talk, but have not completed that. Pending a rewrite, I think the status quo is far, far stronger than any option that removes gender expression from the lese sentence. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- What do you mean gender expression non-conformity is a vital part in the definition? A cis femboy isn't trans, nor is a trans tomboy cis, we can still have "Transgender people are also all GNC, though not all GNC people are transgender." in the lede, but gender expression is not a part of the definition at all. A Socialist Trans Girl 03:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- Excellent info! Please post your WP:RS for "A cis femboy isn't trans, nor is a trans tomboy cis." Oh, wait... sorry; you don't have any sources for that. Not only are femboy and tomboy vague terms at best without a standard sociological definition, the (admitted horrible) articles on each term contradict at least part of each statement. Please return when you have sources that can be cited. Until then, I'll stand by the statement, "This entire conversation is WP:OR and so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning." The article as written needs help, but the burden of proof here is with people trying to redact valid, sourced information (that's you). Cheers, Last1in (talk) 12:11, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Last1in Transgender: An umbrella term encompassing those whose gender identities differ from that typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth.
- Cisgender: Used to describe an individual whose gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth.[1] Transgender and Cisgender are mutually exclusive antonyms, and is in relation to gender identity. Now you provide a WP:RS for your claim. The reason femboy and tomboy have no academic sociological definitions is because they are informal non-academic terms, but, Cisgender and Gender Non-Conforming ARE used in academia, and are the academic equivalent, and there is an explicit differentiation between being cis GNC being transgender.[2][3] (Note, we are talking about cisgender GNC people and GE GNC trans people. Tomboy and femboy are merely types of GNC, used as examples.) A Socialist Trans Girl 06:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- User:A Socialist Trans Girl, I am deeply confused. The sources you cite are literally the one I linked above, and they specifically say that what I wrote. I chose to link terms that you would obviously already recognise so that you could get to those sources. Did you read either of them? If so, and you still think that they refute my statement, I need to better understand before I can explain. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Last1in I don’t understand what you’re saying here, can you explain? A Socialist Trans Girl 06:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm having trouble keeping separate this conversation and the one on TS (scrapping that article and lumping it in here). Again, we might be saying the same thing! The definitions used above and below (thank you, @King keudo), show that gender expression should be used in the lede where we introduce this subject. I 100% believe that GNC deserves a better article that the current dismb to Gender variance (or at least a major rework on that page), just as I think that TS requires a separate article at this point in the evolution of sex/gender terminology. But I think both of those articles are directly and inextricably within the umbrella-term, transgender, and both should be in the lede of this article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 11:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Last1in did you put this on the wrong talk page? A Socialist Trans Girl 11:44, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm having trouble keeping separate this conversation and the one on TS (scrapping that article and lumping it in here). Again, we might be saying the same thing! The definitions used above and below (thank you, @King keudo), show that gender expression should be used in the lede where we introduce this subject. I 100% believe that GNC deserves a better article that the current dismb to Gender variance (or at least a major rework on that page), just as I think that TS requires a separate article at this point in the evolution of sex/gender terminology. But I think both of those articles are directly and inextricably within the umbrella-term, transgender, and both should be in the lede of this article. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 11:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- I want to point out, from your own offered source that you did leave out part of the definition of Cisgender and Transgender - which is important to the conversation of "gender expression" in the opening of this article. The definition for Cisgender and Transgender read, in full:
- Cisgender: Used to describe an individual whose gender identity and gender expression align with the sex assigned at birth. (emphasis mine)
- Transgender: An umbrella term encompassing those whose gender identities or gender roles differ from those typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. (emphasis mine)
- Additionally, the definitions offered by the APA source that you provided also use definitions of Gender Identity and Gender Expression that rely on each other:
- Gender expression: Clothing, physical appearance and other external presentations and behaviors that express aspects of gender identity or role. (emphasis mine)
- Gender identity: An internal sense of being male, female or something else, which may or may not correspond to an individual's sex assigned at birth or sex characteristics. (emphasis mine)
- I agree with your position; GNC isn't exclusive to transgender individuals. However, we are presenting this terminology the same way reliable sources do. To change it, we need reliable sources that reflect this change. A quick search online gives a couple of resources that also support the opening using the term gender expression. Sorry, I don't know how to put a ref list in a talk page yet, and for the wall of text. King keudo (talk) 11:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- @King keudo Yes, although the APA definitions still distinguish between transgender and GNC.
- Additionally, there are reliable sources which I provided saying that being transgender and GNC are different things, and I have not seen any reliable sources stating they are the same as the current text implies, and additionally the APA definition states GI or gender roles differing from typical associated AGAB, and that definition I am fine with, AND is also at a source more reliable than the currently cited sources (APA terminology takes presidence over current) and the additional ones you listed* (*NCTE doesn’t actually include GE in their definition just GI), so RS supports not having GE in the definition. FYI you just do it the same way as in an article, and I’ve already added a reflist at the bottom of this talkpage section. A Socialist Trans Girl 06:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- I would like to add one thing to your statement, @King keudo. "To change it, we need a preponderance of reliable sources [to] reflect this change." Just because a couple of academics have embraced this does not make it a consensus. I can find (and actually have) sources from peer-reviewed journals that posit the most preposterous things. It's part of the scientific journey for academics to "prove" a point, only to have it rejected or revised by the broader community. It's why we have to trail sources, not lead them. The preponderance of sources already in the article that address the split in terms acknowledge that they are overlapping but distinct concepts at this time. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 01:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- Excellent info! Please post your WP:RS for "A cis femboy isn't trans, nor is a trans tomboy cis." Oh, wait... sorry; you don't have any sources for that. Not only are femboy and tomboy vague terms at best without a standard sociological definition, the (admitted horrible) articles on each term contradict at least part of each statement. Please return when you have sources that can be cited. Until then, I'll stand by the statement, "This entire conversation is WP:OR and so semantically convoluted as to lose all meaning." The article as written needs help, but the burden of proof here is with people trying to redact valid, sourced information (that's you). Cheers, Last1in (talk) 12:11, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- What do you mean gender expression non-conformity is a vital part in the definition? A cis femboy isn't trans, nor is a trans tomboy cis, we can still have "Transgender people are also all GNC, though not all GNC people are transgender." in the lede, but gender expression is not a part of the definition at all. A Socialist Trans Girl 03:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not precisely; there is a lot that needs improvement in both the lede and the article body. I 100% believe, however, that gender expression (or, more precisely, nonconformity in gender expression) is a vital part of the definition of transgender. I have been trying to compose a lede with better flow (and less source contradiction) for consideration on this Talk, but have not completed that. Pending a rewrite, I think the status quo is far, far stronger than any option that removes gender expression from the lese sentence. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Last1in So what are you suggesting as the action item here? The status quo? Or? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 02:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Now to address the argument I see coming of "well, maybe not both; but how about neither?" Rejecting the binary shackles of male/female sex and gender is important. Rejecting the actual rules of logic and linguistics is not. There is no "it's not on any side at all" concept in a disjoint and collectively exhaustive pair. Cis and trans are not simple opposites or a contrasting pair of terms (like left : right, or up : down) that are mutually exclusive but not exhaustive. Something can be 'even with' or 'parallel to', and 'in front of' or 'behind'; thus neither left nor right, up nor down. By the very definition and nature of the terms in question here, however, a person cannot be neither cis nor trans. Like the terms odd and even for non-zero numbers, there isn't another option on the linguistic menu unless we're making [redacted] up. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- i agree 👍 88.109.191.212 (talk) 12:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@Last1in @King keudo @CaptainEek Could it be said we have consensus? The APA terminology definition is more reliable than the current cited sources, and the implication that there are no cisgender GNC people also has reliable sources disproving it. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- @A Socialist Trans Girl Consensus for which wording? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek "... whose gender identity or gender roles differ from those typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth.", The APA terminology definition. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- I admittedly don't love the current version, but my issue with the APA is that differing gender roles doesn't feel super accurate either. A stay at home father is breaking the gender roles of his society, but it could hardly be said that makes him trans. Perhaps the lesson of the APA and WPATH is that both agree on gender identity, but they also point out that there is clearly something else going on, and on that point they don't agree. So the solution could just be to limit the definition to gender identity? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek "... whose gender identity or gender roles differ from those typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth.", The APA terminology definition. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
@CaptainEek Sure, shall we implement it now? A Socialist Trans Girl
- Works for me :) CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 05:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- Nice, I've gone ahead and implemented the changes! (◕ᴗ◕✿) A Socialist Trans Girl 05:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm a bit late to the ping, apologies; I'm not against this change, thank you. King keudo (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- THAT is what I call perfect consensus building! Great edit, and thank you, A Socialist Trans Girl. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Last1in thanks! (=^ ◡ ^=) A Socialist Trans Girl 03:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- THAT is what I call perfect consensus building! Great edit, and thank you, A Socialist Trans Girl. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:17, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm a bit late to the ping, apologies; I'm not against this change, thank you. King keudo (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- Nice, I've gone ahead and implemented the changes! (◕ᴗ◕✿) A Socialist Trans Girl 05:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
references
- ^ "A glossary: Defining transgender terms". American Psychological Association. 49 (8): 32. September 2018.
- ^ Broussard, Kristin A.; Warner, Ruth H. (21 August 2018). "Gender Nonconformity Is Perceived Differently for Cisgender and Transgender Targets". Sex Roles.
- ^ Qiguo, Lian; Ruili, Li; Zhihao, Liu; Xiaona, Li; Qiru, Su; Dongpeng, Zheng (5 April 2022). "Associations of nonconforming gender expression and gender identity with bullying victimization: an analysis of the 2017 youth risk behavior survey". BMC Public Health. 22: 650.
Misleading wording at the end of the first paragraph
The definition ends with this?wording "...the sex they were assigned at birth." While actually it should state something like "biological sex" or "chromosomal sex". The current phrasing can suggest that a. someone is assigning a sex to each new born and b. That being a transgender depends in some way on this (third party's) assignment. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not done. Per WP:STICKTOSOURCE, the article defines transgender in terms of assigned sex at birth, as this is the phraseology preferred by reliable sources, including the three we cite. The AP Stylebook recommends using assigned over
biological sex, birth gender, was identified at birth as, born a girl and the like
. "Biological sex" is an empty and redundant term (sex is necessarily biological); see intersex to learn more about why "chromosomal sex" would be similarly problematic. Cheers, –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 18:53, 16 July 2023 (UTC)- So why not just "sex"? If anything it would stress the difference between gender and sex. For someone who is not an expert on this topic, using the recommended phrasing that includes the a verb can suggest that the action of assigning the sex includes choosing which one it should be (and not just documenting an observation). 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 21:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- @2A00, there are a number of reasons. RoxySaunders gave you just the most important one: The preponderance of sources use some version of 'sex assigned at birth', so that is the wording the we use in Wikivoice. Those authorities probably choose the phrase because more of them can agree upon it than anything else. Some consider 'sex' to be observable and changeable (hence the obsolete term, sex reassignment surgery). Others believe it is innate and 'medical' (e.g., endocrinological) and relatively permanent. What everyone agrees is that -- right or wrong, for good or evil -- someone makes a decision about the sex of the person at the time the baby is born in nearly all current cultures. Using 'sex assigned at birth' gives everyone a specific and agreed starting point (literally and figuratively) for conversations about sex and gender, whereas 'sex' simply invites yet another flaming row in the faculty lounge before the discussion even starts. Hope that helps. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ambiguity, for one. Sex can refer to a variety of traits, some of which aren't strictly binary or static. For various legal, medical, and practical purposes, a transgender or intersex person's 'sex' (in cases were it is insisted that we have a single binary sex) may be different from the one we were assigned at birth. Also some lay English speakers (and thus, some sources) are used to using sex and gender (identity) interchangeably, which certainly will not help them if they are encountering this subject for the first time.
- Readers who are turned around or offended by the phrase sex they were assigned at birth can follow the link through to Sex assignment. In general, confusing or ASTONISHing terms on Wikipedia are clarified through notes or more prose, rather than futzing with the terminology that one would expect to find in other references on the same subject. –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 01:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- So why not just "sex"? If anything it would stress the difference between gender and sex. For someone who is not an expert on this topic, using the recommended phrasing that includes the a verb can suggest that the action of assigning the sex includes choosing which one it should be (and not just documenting an observation). 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 21:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Seems like this is a perennial question here; the Talk page (and regular editors here) might benefit from creation of a FAQ that we can link or point to. Mathglot (talk) 08:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- A FAQ proposal came up on another Talk that I'm on. I volunteered to help there and will do so here as well. However, I've never worked with FAQs in WP so could use some guidance. Specifically, how do we determine the questions and negotiate the answers? Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- This is worth its own section; see below. Mathglot (talk) 20:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- certainly. Even after reading the replies I am still cunfused. On one hand "sex is always biological" but on the other hand "Sex can refer to a variety of traits, some of which aren't strictly binary or static.".
- I think the important point is that the moment in time when assigning the sex of a newborn is an agreed starting point. In other words the term "sex assignment at birth" meaning that point in time rather the action of sex assignment. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- As RoxySaunders suggested, you might want to read sex assignment and if that article does not answer all your questions, please state them on the talk page there so that the article can be improved.--TempusTacet (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies if my phrasing was unclear. Sex is necessarily biological, in that all sexual characteristics (hormones, gonads, chromosomes, etc.) are physical, biological traits. Hormonal and gonadal sex, and secondary characteristics like breast and hair growth, can of course contrast and change throughout one's life, so it is not accurate (or elucidating) to say that a trans person belongs to any single "biological sex" for their entire life or at any point therein. "Biological" sometimes appears in this context to distinguish from legal sex, or from gender, so maybe calling it "redundant" was too harsh. But the term is charged and ambiguous in ways that AGAB isn't, and should not be used here. –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 06:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- you're right. Some may use "genetic sex" but usually one doesn't really check that.
- Looking at the sources already supplied in this article I see that the American Psychological Association do use the term "sex assigned at birth".
- But in: [2]https://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/transgender.htm the definition is "Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity or expression (masculine, feminine, other) is different from their sex (male, female) at birth."
- [3]https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf "Trans is a general term for people whose gender is different from the gender assigned to them at birth." Which is a bit better than the current definition.
- [4]https://www.britannica.com/topic/transgender "transgender, term self-applied by persons whose gender identity varies from that traditionally associated with their apparent biological sex at birth." Which seems to me the most accurate.
- [5]https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/transgender-population-by-state "Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender or sense of personal identity does not match the sex they were born with. In other words, a transgender person may have been born as a male but identifies as a female or vice versa."
- [6]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3780721 "Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity or expression does not conform to that typically associated with the sex they were born as or assigned to at birth."
- All the above sources are from this wikipedia page andcall these definitions are more accurate and agreed basing on the sources they were published in. 2A00:A041:E080:1665:2154:FF81:5EA9:EC8 (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Personally, I still think more sources use 'sex assigned at birth' or the (less-ideal) 'gender assigned at birth' than any of the others, but it would take a lot of research to make a definitive statement -- I was wrong to do so above as there are 279 sources cited and I've read only a fraction of them. And there are good cases for each of the phrases that you chose. I am a grammar Nazi by nature, so I definitely see your linguistic points.
- There is an easy tiebreaker: Does the existing wording confuse or mislead the average reader? The average person from the UK or US comprehends written English at the level expected of a nine- to twelve-year-old. Can you honestly say 'sex assigned at birth' is harder for a pre-teen to understand than 'apparent biological sex at birth'? I just don't see it. I also think it's important to consider that you quoted six emmenantly respected sources and no two agreed on a phrase. That fact alone should warn us off the dangerous shoals of a debate that has been going on for decades in academia. This feels like a perfectly valid point that is also a needless distraction. Without a clear, unequivocal choice of one 'best' phrase amongst the preponderance of sources, I think the status quo should stay. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- This is worth its own section; see below. Mathglot (talk) 20:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Starting to get off-topic for this page; see WP:NOTFORUM.
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Just FYI: let's get this conversation back on track, which is to say, about how to improve supposed problems in the first paragraph of the lead. The discussion started out fine, but then started to diverge, roughly here, into general thoughts about the transgender topic, which is o/t for this page per WP:NOTFORUM. If you want to ask general questions about the transgender topic, you can try the Reference desk, or possibly one of the WikiProjects might be willing to host it, if it fits their goals. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 00:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Transmasculine
i sometimes see yhe term transmasculine, dhoild yhat not be added somewhere? 92.40.193.56 (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- "transmasculine" is already defined in the article's "Terminology" section.--TempusTacet (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
Two-Spirit
@Willbb234 The article sourced is pretty easy to read. The very first paragraph does, in fact, say:
- Activist Albert McLeod developed the term in 1990 to broadly reference Indigenous peoples in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) community. Two-spirit is used by some Indigenous peoples to describe their gender, sexual and spiritual identity.
That's pretty straightforward, and supports the sentence "Some two-spirit people may also identify as transgender." Could you explain why you think it doesn't? King keudo (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- It's complicated. Some do feel that way. Others feel another. From Two-spirit:
For early adopters, the term "Two Spirit" was a deliberate act to differentiate and distance themselves from non-Native gays and lesbians,[1] as well as from non-Native terminology such as "gay", "lesbian", and "transgender",[2]"
- Right now we're at a point where the RS sources document a variety of viewpoints. As for OR... um, it varies. My experience is that it was developed to be something to say to non-Natives as an English-language umbrella term instead of the traditional terms for ceremonial roles, and to replace offensive anthro terms. The ceremonial roles were based on gender-nonconformity, and existed before modern ideas of transgender. Some Elders say 2S is now a term for modern LGBT Natives, others say it's only for those who've been chosen from birth for a ceremonial role. We don't have great sources for this stuff because it's not generally written about. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Complicated is right, and you clearly are more knowledgeable about the subject than I, so I defer to you overall. That being said, the edit in question is to remove both a statement and a source, simply with the claim that the statement is not supported by the source. I am not arguing that it merits singular inclusion in the lead over the other information included in the Native American and First Nations section, but the source provided does indicate that some indigenous people who are two-spirit may also identify as trangender. From the article you linked, Two-Spirit;
- While initially focused on ceremonial and social roles within Indigenous community, as a pan-Indian, English-language umbrella term, for some it has come to have similar use as the terms "queer" (modern, reclaimed usage) or "LGBTQ" in encompassing lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Native peoples in North America.
- My point is only that the statement is supported by the source being used. The statement and source should not have been removed, and should be restored. King keudo (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- My 2p: The statement should never have been removed. The source is clear, and it corresponds to the source. There is neither WP:OR nor WP:SYNTH. IMO, to reinterpret the source in a way that supports removal would in itself constitute both OR and SYNTH. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- As long as it is qualified that only "some" use the term, it is technically correct to say that some individuals use both terms for themselves. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand how one can come to the conclusion that the statement "Two-spirit is used by some Indigenous peoples to describe their gender, sexual and spiritual identity" is the same as saying "Some two-spirit people may also identify as transgender". The word 'transgender' isn't even mentioned in the first sentence. Willbb234 09:46, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
- Also, the source isn't exactly "clear". In fact, it's quite the opposite. The statement "Two-spirit is used by some Indigenous peoples to describe their gender, sexual and spiritual identity" is vague in the sense that we don't have any figures and the source mentions "indigenous peoples" which seems like a bit of a generalisation. The source expands on this, but offers various definitions for different peoples:
Two-spirit commonly referred to gender identity, dress and traditional roles. The Cree terms napêw iskwêwisêhot and iskwêw ka napêwayat respectively reference men who dress like women and women who dress like men. The Siksika (Blackfoot) term aakíí’skassi described men who performed roles typically associated with women, such as basket weaving and pottery-making. Similarly, the Ktunaxa (Kootenay) term titqattek described females who took on roles traditionally characterized as masculine, including healing, hunting and warfare. One of the most well-known two-spirit people who identified as female was We’wha (1846–96) of New Mexico. She was referred to as lhaman or “mixed gender” in the Zuni language. In various Indigenous cultures, temperament, work roles, dress and lifestyle distinguished two-spirited individuals from men and women.
I find it hard to believe that this is all "clear". Willbb234 09:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)- I would not use the Canadian Encyclopedia as a source for Two-spirit issues. They cite a pretendian who has invented terms and misrepresented history, among other problems. For instance they imply that the Ojibwe term niizh manidoowag came first; it did not. "Two Spirit" was the chosen term, then it was translated into niizh manidoowag to honor the people whose land the conference was taking place on. They also misspell and mistranslate Lhamana, and, in my opinion, are over-simplifying We'wha's complex identity. I would instead recommend DeVries and Pember, both cited repeatedly in the Two Spirit article. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 18:03, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
- As long as it is qualified that only "some" use the term, it is technically correct to say that some individuals use both terms for themselves. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
- My 2p: The statement should never have been removed. The source is clear, and it corresponds to the source. There is neither WP:OR nor WP:SYNTH. IMO, to reinterpret the source in a way that supports removal would in itself constitute both OR and SYNTH. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Complicated is right, and you clearly are more knowledgeable about the subject than I, so I defer to you overall. That being said, the edit in question is to remove both a statement and a source, simply with the claim that the statement is not supported by the source. I am not arguing that it merits singular inclusion in the lead over the other information included in the Native American and First Nations section, but the source provided does indicate that some indigenous people who are two-spirit may also identify as trangender. From the article you linked, Two-Spirit;
References
- ^ Jacobs, Thomas & Lang (1997), pp. 2–3, 221
- ^ Pember, Mary Annette (Oct 13, 2016). "'Two Spirit' Tradition Far From Ubiquitous Among Tribes". Rewire. Retrieved Oct 17, 2016.
Non-Native anthropologist Will Roscoe gets much of the public credit for coining the term two spirit. However, according to Kristopher Kohl Miner of the Ho-Chunk Nation, Native people such as anthropologist Dr. Wesley Thomas of the Dine or Navajo tribe also contributed to its creation. (Thomas is a professor in the School of Dine and Law Studies.)
Revert
@Raladic: tell me how this edit is "non-constructive". Willbb234 14:12, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- The consensus is that it was a hate crime, which led to the day of remembrance to commemorate hate crimes committed against transgender people.
- The fact that police misgendered her and did not call for an ambulance for a hour showed they were not really interested in solving the crime [7], so the consensus on the article and the linked Transgender Day of Remembrance have established this as the consensus. You can also find more sources such as this one quoting the mayor of Boston that called it a anti-trans crime
“Rita Hester was a Black trans woman and beloved Allston community member who lost her life as a result of transphobia and anti-trans violence"
[8], which support the consensus on the article. Raladic (talk) 14:36, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- Please point me towards where this 'consensus' was reached. We also can't look at ambulance arrival times and police activity to determine a motive for this attack. In fact, the two are unrelated. Also, the mayor calling it an anti trans crime doesn't mean we can. Again, I ask you to tell me how my edit was "non-constructive" and why you reverted it instead of coming to the talk page. Willbb234 14:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- From this source:
Rita may have been killed because she was a man who lived as a woman.
emphasis mine.A few weeks before her death, Hester went on vacation to Greece. Right before she left, she punched someone in the face at the Model Cafe, another Allston bar she frequented, according to the friend from the neighborhood who spoke anonymously.
Evidence for another motive.Both the friend and Wynne have another suspicion: A man (or men) who couldn't face his attraction to a trans woman came home with Hester and killed her in a fit of shame.
Pure speculation.Diana Hester said that for the first several years, she called the Boston Police Department all the time for updates on the case. In 2006, it announced that it was reopening the case. She never heard much after that, she said.
appears there has been no progress in the case from at least 2006 to 2020.
- Clear pattern of evidence that suggests that we cannot determine a motive.
- From the boston.com source that you point towards [9]:
Her murder remains unsolved.
- Willbb234 14:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think there's enough sourcing for an attributed ... which some believe was an anti-transgender hate crime, as that is the necessary context for why her murder inspired TDOR. Edge Network: Some in the trans community believe Hester's murder was a hate crime, evidenced by the brutality of the assault and the fact that the assailant did not appear to have stolen anything from her apartment. [10] –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 18:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree. I don't see that there is "enough sourcing" here; you've only provided one source. It is also unclear as to whether this is a view held by "some" people. As far as I'm aware
Some in the trans community
would mean that this is a small minority view (the trans community is relatively small and 'some' would mean that the group who hold this view is even smaller). I don't see how this is due. It appears that the TDOR was more inspired by the nature of the murder or the attention it received, which might be a better line of approach. Willbb234 19:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- You are ignoring the other source in the mayor of Boston I have cited above, which also supports this. It is important context that was the reason for the inception of the TDOR.
- Again, multiple editors have given reason on why the current wording on the article is th established WP:CONSENSUS and have shown sources backing it.
- Why do you seem to have such a vested interest in trying to remove this context? Raladic (talk) 20:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Again, multiple editors have given reason on why the current wording on the article is th established WP:CONSENSUS and have shown sources backing it.
I'm really struggling to find out how you have come to this conclusion so links to other discussion would be appreciated. Please don't question my motives here. I have a right to oppose the content and tacit bad-faith accusations will get you nowhere. The boston.com source doesn't really support this as it only explains the view of the Mayor's Office as opposed to some general view by a group of people. Please explain how my edit was "non-constructive". Willbb234 20:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- I think that RoxySaunders' suggestions using the word "some" are the very furthest we can go to accommodate these objections. In fact, while I don't object to it, I think that it is probably a greater compromise than is really justified. To just reject that out of hand makes me wonder whether there is anything other than total acquiescence to your demands that will placate you. I think that consensus is against you here and that this is in danger of becoming a WP:1AM situation.
- We can't let this discussion continue to repeat indefinitely so what I propose you do, if you really do not feel that there is a consensus yet, is to start an RfC. That is a defined process, which ensures fairness, with an uninvolved arbiter determining the outcome. We can notify relevant WikiProjects to bring more people in to get more opinions. If you, or anybody else, chooses to do this then I'd recommend making it an RfC with three options: The status quo text, the text you want and the text that RoxySaunders suggested. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is there a reason why we couldn’t use the wording from the Boston.com article? Something along the lines of “She was killed in an act of transphobia and anti-trans violence” Hy Brasil (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- That comment was made by the mayor's office and so can't be stated as fact. Willbb234 15:42, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- It would have to be attributed to the mayor (e.g. according to the mayor….), and not in wikivoice. Sweet6970 (talk) 15:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, but then it would be a question of whether this was due as it doesn't appear to be the reason presented in sources why the TDOR was established (the comments were made a full 24 years after the murder). Willbb234 15:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is there a reason why we couldn’t use the wording from the Boston.com article? Something along the lines of “She was killed in an act of transphobia and anti-trans violence” Hy Brasil (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I disagree. I don't see that there is "enough sourcing" here; you've only provided one source. It is also unclear as to whether this is a view held by "some" people. As far as I'm aware
- I think there's enough sourcing for an attributed ... which some believe was an anti-transgender hate crime, as that is the necessary context for why her murder inspired TDOR. Edge Network: Some in the trans community believe Hester's murder was a hate crime, evidenced by the brutality of the assault and the fact that the assailant did not appear to have stolen anything from her apartment. [10] –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 18:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the material under discussion as, per WP:ONUS, the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.
The material should therefore be removed until some consensus on exact wording is reached, which I am more than happy to discuss further. I am going to comment here beforehand so that I'm not blocked for edit warring Thanks. Willbb234 12:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please don't. That would be seen as deliberately restarting the edit war which you were blocked for. The fact that you commented your intentions here will not count in your favour. If anything, it might be seen as proof that you are aware that you are edit warring and thus make things worse.
- You need to understand that nobody has supported your position here, at least, not so far. An RfC, which would bring in new people, is the only way that you can possibly hope to get anywhere with this. My primary recommendation is that you accept that your position is not persuading anybody and just drop the stick but, if you do not accept that, then you can legitimately put that to the test by starting an RfC. (Instructions are here: WP:RfC.) Edit warring against the status quo version is not a legitimate way forward. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- WP:ONUS is quite clear on who is responsible for gaining this consensus. My intention is not to start some kind of edit war but instead to enforce the policy set out at WP:ONUS. Participation in this discussion has been low so far so I don't understand why you are trying to discount my views based on the fact that people disagree with me. Please assume good faith, something you have consistently failed to do. Willbb234 13:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I would note that instead of using this talk page to talk about the content under scrutiny, all you have done is used it to make bad-faith accusations against me and demands that I should be doing certain things like starting an RfC and what not. Comment on the content, not on the editor, or leave the conversation. Your contributions here have been the least bit helpful. Willbb234 13:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
@Raladic: please don't add a source which appears to support the statement under discussion. It's quite clear that the source doesn't support the current wording. Willbb234 16:01, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I have added the source, and the attribution as was suggested by editors here and the mention that the murder remains unsolved, but has been described as an anti-transgender hate crime, which is supported by the sources with attribution.
- I believe this both satisfies the fact that it is questioned, as well as maintaining the existence of the content, which is important context since it was the cause for the inception of TDOR to commemorate hate crimes committed against transgender people.
- If you are still unsatisfied and want to seek more input from editors, then please follow DanielRigal's guidance and raise an RfC. Raladic (talk) 16:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)