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== Randi == |
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In the Randi section of this article, there's a statement that reads "Randi concluded that Rabinoff's data were simply made up." I've read through that section of Randi's book twice and can't find where Randi concludes that. I even got out my reading glasses the second time to make sure I didn't miss something. : ) Could someone direct me to the page number where he says it? Thanks! [[User: |
In the Randi section of this article, there's a statement that reads "Randi concluded that Rabinoff's data were simply made up." I've read through that section of Randi's book twice and can't find where Randi concludes that. I even got out my reading glasses the second time to make sure I didn't miss something. : ) Could someone direct me to the page number where he says it? Thanks! [[User:TimidGuy|TimidGuy]] 12:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 12:08, 10 September 2006
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.
Previous discussions:
- Archive 1 (Pre Feb 2005):
- Archive 2 (Nov 28-30 2005) Disclosing Mantra:
- Archive 3 (Nov 30 2005 -Feb 10 2006)
- Archive 4 (Feb-10th May 28, 2006)
- Archive 5 (May-28th June 25, 2006)
- Archive 6 (25th June-19th July 2006)
hmm
As a newcomer to this article, I am amazed it has been allowed to get to this state: Surely the fact that the claims on the founders website quickly prove to be lies (I particularly loved the graphs of various cognative performance improvments which were basically meaningless, and the claim of 100s of scientific studies which, if properly examined, quickly dissappear!), is enough that wikipedia should dismiss the whole concept as "Scientology for gullible meditation-addicts". 128.86.161.242 21:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Biased
Simply the article can be termed as ATM antiTranscendental meditation.
For sure every thing has its own side effects .There will be a 10% ill effect in all stuffs existing in the world.I hope this article primarily focusses on the controversies ...i know more people who say they r benifited. We have to remeber that even jesus was crucified in this world.So obviously set of people will be always cristising their extent trying to critisise things.
But it is a shame that wikipedia hosts such writings.For sure the article has to be rewriten to capture best and ill of TM asap.
Mantras will they affect human nature
What i heard from other TM practioners that the mantra used in TM are basic mantras used in ancient vedic books.I dont think repetition of mantra is going to hamper anyones mental health. The thing for sure is that u must not compell and do meditation like a exercise .It will come naturally.It is a mental state without much tensions.Even we sit idle for quite some time we feel pleasantness Repetition of Mantra makes u stay focussed without any much efforts .
As per my opinion TM Meditation practice is simple and i have found lot of people benifited from it.Even i felt bit enregised for around 14 hours in my programming proffession.
Really iam not a supported of TM group but i wish to convey my words and experiences about TM. I have also experienced that iam bit focussed while playing cricket after practising TM.This is true. even iam not a regular practioned of TM.
Some of the rules of meditation 1.Deep sleep and enough sleep is a must and it is better than mediattion. 2.Dont compell urself to sit at Meditation.It will occur naturally like sometimes u may think of
going for a long pleasant walk.
3.Primary things--> rest for 5 mins before and after medittaion 4.Dont do meditation when stomach is loaded or after exercise.
Really meditation has lot of good effects if practised properly.There are lot of ways of meditation . I practised two and found myself comfortable with TM.
- Hi, 213.42.2.XX. It would be great if you'd create an account and sign your posts, because you keep coming in from different IPs and it's hard to know who's talking. Please note that you can sign posts on this page, even without having an account, by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~. When you save, that transforms to your IP, or your account name if you have one, plus a timestamp. But the main thing I wanted to tell you is that this is a page for discussing the article — not the subject transcendental meditation, your experiences of it, etc. It's only for discussing, and hopefully reaching some agreement on, how to make Transcendental Meditation better. Bishonen | talk 16:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC).
- Ditto. Also, when you edit the TM or any other Wiki article, please be more careful and always check the accuracy of what you add. The Archives of Internal Medicine (a montly specialty journal) is not the prestigious weekly Journal of the American Medical Association. And please try to make all changes consistent with Wiki style (including all footnotes, references, etc). Please see how I edited your additions. Thanks.Askolnick 12:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Bishonen, this IP address has been used repeatedly to vandalize Wiki articles and it has been blocked several times -- the most recent was just 3 days ago. Any idea what's going on with this IP address? Askolnick 13:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it's a shared proxy. Predictably, it's got a mix of good and bad edits, and apparently when you block it, you take out the entire United Arab Emirates. See in the block log how Nandesuka blocks it for a month in April, then unblocks four days later when he realizes the collateral damage is unacceptable? The person who used it to post here doesn't sound like a vandal to me. Bishonen | talk 13:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC).
- With all their wealth from oil, I would think they could afford more than one IP address!Askolnick 19:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Newsgroups as primary sources
While I agree that citing a newsgroup for Denaro's quote wasn't the best thing (I couldn't find the original online ANYWHERE, so I used the newsgroup reference "just because"), newsgroups CAN be a primary source of info. For instance, the first publication concerning Duff's Device was made by Mr. Duff in a newsgroup exchange. Additionally, the first public analysis that correctly identified the source of the Pentium Bug that I'm aware of was made in a newsgroup discussion. The guy was immediately hired by Intel to head up the team to identify and fix it. Sparaig 15:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- No, Sparaig, "newsgroups CAN (NOT) be a primary source of info" for Wiki articles. I wish you would pay attention to Wiki rules and guidelines before claiming what is or is not allowed. The fact that you were unable to find that information elsewhere is not relevant. Wiki's guidelines say posts to Usenet (newsgroups) should not be used as sources because there is no editorial oversight or third party fact-checking and that there is no way to know for sure who has written those posts.
- "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources. This is in part because we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them, and in part because there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking." Askolnick 15:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Original Research question
Currently, as a volunteer (to get hopefully professional-level experience), I'm doing some 3D animation work for TM researcher Fred Travis, based on the theory of how TM works first proposed in [1]. All I'm doing is creating a 3D illustration of the theory. Is this "original research" or does it fall under the illustration guidelines? Sparaig 16:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sparaig, I think you still don't understand what is meant by "original research" in Wikipedialand. Wiki's rule prohibits editors from adding any of their own opinions or information that is NOT supported by a credible published source. If your "3D animation work" is "published" by a reputable "publisher," then that information might be permitted. If not, forget about it.Askolnick 19:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- That's why I was asking for clarification. My 3D work is illustrating an already-published theoretical paper. I assume that animation falls under the Original images clause of the no original research guideline. Since you didn't make reference to this in your response, I don't think the matter is closed. Sparaig 19:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Here's what that Wiki guideline says:
- "Images that constitute original research in any other way are not allowed, such as a diagram of a hydrogen atom showing extra particles in the nucleus as theorized by the uploader. All uploaded pictures are subject to Wikipedia's other policies and guidelines, notably Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view."
- To put it another way, an illustration that helps to explain generally accepted information is permitted. However, an illustration that presents an editor's point of view about a controversial issue is not. So if you would want to add a picture of Maharishi that's not controversial, there would be no problem. But if you wanted to add a picture showing him with a halo of light around his head or floating in mid-air, forget it.
- Without seeing your images, I won't venture a guess whether they're acceptable or not. However, seeing that you're illustrating someone else's theory about how TM "works," you could indeed be trying to include pictures of "hydrogen atoms showing extra particles in the nucelus." If so, such illustrations of "Transmutation meditation" are not likely to lift off the ground here, let alone hover.
- A while back, I added a photograph of my dog Argos (who, BTW, is still waiting for Peterklutz at our back door :-) to the Wiki article on Labrador Retrievers -- which was entirely appropriate because it helps to illustrate generally accepted information (that the color of yellow Labs also include "fox reds." That's not just my opinion or interpretation. That is information which was contributed by other editors and that is well-documented. I only provided an illustration to help readers visualize the appearance of a fox red yellow Lab. However, it would not be proper for me to add my unpublished illustration of what I think the Loch Ness monster looks like. If I had to guess, I'd guess that's figuratively what you would like to do. Correct me if I'm wrong.Askolnick 14:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think you're wrong, but not certain. Fred Travis asked me to create an animation illustrating a theory of how TM works that he and Keith Wallace published in Consciousness and Cognition, a reasonably respected mainstream journal, at least according to the Wikipedia entry. Obviously, its not a widely accepted theory in mainstream science, but given that the theory IS published in a well-known journal, how is an animated illustration of the theory a violation? The theory is based on the observation of fMRIs of meditators that shows that their thalamic activity reduces during TM even though the meditator is still alert according to other measures. All the animation is supposed to do is show the observed situation, followed by an illustration of the proposed mechanism for how this happens during TM and why it may be important. Fred will be using the animation in presentations and lectures. I just thought it would be fun to post a reference to it in the TM wiki article. Sparaig 19:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- We have not seen the illustrations you want to add to this article. So the question remains, are they your representation of what a "dog" looks like or what a "Loch Ness monster" looks like? Because your work is unpublished, it should not be used if it is your interpretation of something that many authorities don't believe is true. Why don't you provide us with a URL so that we can see those images and judge whether you've "added particles to the hydrogen nucleus" (as Wiki cites as an unacceptable example). Askolnick 22:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, for all *I* know, it IS a case of adding particles to the hydrogen nucleus. However, *I* am not the one adding the particles. The proposal to add the particles is found in a theoretical paper published in a mainstream journal. All I'm doing is illustrating what the authors claim the particles look like at the request of one of the authors. Sparaig 07:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sparaig, you just don't get it. No original research means no original research. Your adding unpublished information that you say was created "at the request of one of the authors," is doing original research. Wiki readers should NOT have to take your word for it that you got things right, that you didn't add a few "extra particles to the atom's nucleus" because you believe they belong there. Should I be allowed to add unpublished information that I've assembled into this article? Of course not. Wiki's rules barring original research forbids it. Should another editor be allowed to add unpublished information that I've assembled and want him to add? No, that's also not allowed. If Travis thinks your illustration adds to his work, get him to publish it in a reputable source. Then you may include it in a Wiki article. Askolnick 11:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Andrew, the Wiki guidelines for illustrations don't require that the illustration be previously published. Fred's asked me to animate the activity of the brain ala his proposed theory that's already been published. Your interpretation of things would require that no illustration could be created unless it were of something already observed, rather than theorized. That would forbid anyone adding illustrations or animations of Einstein's thought experiments concerning Relativity to a Wikipedia article, as a for example. No pictures of twins, etc. Sparaig 13:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sigh. The Wiki "no original research" guidelines we're talking about concern NON-published illustrations. But those guidelines say that such illustrations should not contain information that is dubious (such as including extra particles in the nucleus of an atom). It doesn't matter if the editor was told by a "researcher" to add those extra particles. Adding such illustrations is not allowed under Wiki's No Original Research rule.
- By your interpretation, an editor can sneak around the No Original Research rule by drawing instead of writing the information he wants to add - thus avoiding the Wiki requirement that all information be backed by a reputable source. It's not enough to claim that Travis thinks your illustrations accurately portray his theory. According to Wiki policies, an editor's word is NOT enough. It must be backed up by a credible source. And no, what I'm saying doesn't forbid anyone from adding illustrations of any of Einstein's thought experiments. Such illustrations may be added if they've been published in a reputable source, or if they have not been published, that they do not provide dubious or non-verifiable information. For example, throwing a few tachyons into an illustration of an Einstein thought experiment would be an obvious no-no. Without seeing the illustrations you've created, I don't know if they do that. But considering everything you've said, I suspect it may. If the information is not dubious or controversal, why not simply add it and let Wiki editors decide? Askolnick 14:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- They (we) will decide anyway. I'm still working on the stuff. Never claimed to be a professional animator, which is why I do volunteer stuff --to get experience so I can learn to do it fast enough to charge money. Sparaig 06:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- By your interpretation, an editor can sneak around the No Original Research rule by drawing instead of writing the information he wants to add - thus avoiding the Wiki requirement that all information be backed by a reputable source. It's not enough to claim that Travis thinks your illustrations accurately portray his theory. According to Wiki policies, an editor's word is NOT enough. It must be backed up by a credible source. And no, what I'm saying doesn't forbid anyone from adding illustrations of any of Einstein's thought experiments. Such illustrations may be added if they've been published in a reputable source, or if they have not been published, that they do not provide dubious or non-verifiable information. For example, throwing a few tachyons into an illustration of an Einstein thought experiment would be an obvious no-no. Without seeing the illustrations you've created, I don't know if they do that. But considering everything you've said, I suspect it may. If the information is not dubious or controversal, why not simply add it and let Wiki editors decide? Askolnick 14:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks andrew
I'm sure the rest of the wiki community appreciates your tireless efforts to discredit the postings of Peter. I mean, they can't possibly figure where he's coming from on their own... Sparaig 02:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- I can understand why you don't want newcomers to know that TMer Peterklutz was permanently blocked from contributing to Wikipedia because of his persistent disruptive conduct (in fact, he continues to waste the time of two administrators, who have to keep reverting his attacks). However, newcomers need some help navigating through this mind-bogglingly long talk page. You obviously resent my giving them this help. You should bear in mind that I wouldn't need to inform newcomers that TMer Peterklutz is blocked for persistently disruptive conduct if he had not been persistently disruptive. As I told TM monk and publicist Dean Drazin 15 years ago, I'm only the postman delivering people's kharma. Askolnick 14:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Do you really think that anyone but you cares at this point? His contributions are all on the TALK page now, where they will pass into archived form quite shortly. Sparaig 14:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Obviously, you care enough, or else you wouldn't have added a new subsection to this talk page to comment on this. Askolnick 14:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, Sparaig. You're incorrect that Peter's contributions are all on his, or any, talkpage. He's posted several times to Transcendental Meditation and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi today, from 213.112.235.89 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and edit warred to keep in a contribution of such barefaced POV (plus incidentally what looks like deliberately bad grammar changes) that he has to be aware that it'll never be kept in the article. I don't see any possible purpose other than to make work for admins, or to discredit TM. Or both. And he went right on after I held off blocking today in order to tell him he was only embarrassing his own side.[2] Looks to me like Askolnick is the wrong person to blame for Peter making TMers look bad. Compare my note here. Are you sure he is a bona fide TMer? Bishonen | talk 16:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC).
- I was referring to the "note to newbies" stuff that andrew put on THIS page to comment about Peter's comments on THIS page. He's removed them since. And Andrew, I was just being sarcastic. Peter obviously has problems that he deals with by making TM and MMY his religion in the strictest sense of the word. I think most people can figure that out without your commentary on his problems. Sparaig 19:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Archiving
All right, I think archiving round about now might be a good idea. I'm archiving all threads more than three days old in the usual way, same as archives 1-3, shutting my eyes firmly to the novelty of creating archive 4 and 5 by pointing to particular history revisions. Bishonen | talk 23:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC).
Footnote section problem
Bishonen or anyone else who can figure out what's wrong, please take a look at the footnote section of the TM article. I tried to fix the last footnote in the list, but in the editing mode, none of the footnotes are displayed. Askolnick 19:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Is that what you had in mind for the footnote? Dreadlocke 20:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
double-citing?
It seems a tad biased to cite the same court ruling in 2 sections: learning TM and TM controversy. Sparaig 08:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- In a lengthy article, about an organization with a thousand tm-entacles throughout the world, some repetition of information is obviously necessary - and citing sources is a Wiki necessity!
OK, let me contrive ways to include the phrase "founder of the award winning K-12 school in Iowa" in several places... Sparaig 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- If it's contrived, that would be spamming and will probably be removed.Askolnick 13:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
clarification
just clarified a few matters... Sparaig 22:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- Did you? Do you really think it is truthful to say the TM initiates only witness and do not particpate in their initiation ceremony? You know TM inititiates are required to particpate in the Hindu religious ceremony called a puja. They are REQUIRED to enter bearing fruit, flowers, and a clean handkerchief, to be handed as an offering to the teacher, who places them on the makeshift altar to the "divine" Guru Dev. They are invited to kneel before this "deity." At the end of the ceremony, they are directed to join the teacher in the chanting of the initiate's mantra - a short word associated with a Hindu deity.
- Everything you say is true. However, according to MMY, the most important part of the participation IS witnessing the cerermony. It's allegorical for the disinterested witnessing of someone who is enlightened. In the Hindu religion, the priest always performs the ceremony while the others watch, for the same reason: it's allegory. Even in the largest-scale Hindu literature, you find this theme repeated: In the Bhagavad Gita, Prince Krishna, who is God Incarnate for Hindus, drives the chariot for the hero Arjuna, who does nothing in the entire story save ask a few questions. BTW, "deity" is a slippry term here. "Deva" doesn't translate well into English as the Wikipedia entry shows. Sparaig 17:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- There is a curious reference in the anonymously-contributed "Steps of Initiation" on the minet.org site, which is a rather detailed step-by-step narration of how the initiation ceremony is supposed to be conducted, my emphasis added:
- "Teacher offers one of student's flowers back to student. The student must take and hold it for the ceremony to continue."
- This sounds to me like the performance of the ritual is contingent upon that wall between simply watching and participating being deliberately broken; all such processes designed to wear down objections always start with very, very small requests like this one, to simply hold a flower. Mike Doughney 09:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- Mike, it is beyond question that without the initiate participating in the TM initiation puja, the religious ceremony would never take place. If the initiate doesn't participate, there is no ceremony. If he/she doesn't bring flowers, fruit , and a clean handkerchief for Guru Dev to blow his divine nose, the ceremony wouldn't continue. If he doesn't hand those gifts over to the teacher to be placed on the altar, the ceremony would not go forward. As you note, the ceremony won't continue unless the initiate takes a flower back from the teacher. And if the initiate doesn't begin chanting his mantra, the ceremony is all for naught. To claim that inititates don't participate in the TM initiation ceremony clearly is dissembling.Askolnick 14:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- Anyone who bothers to check that citation[[3] will see the comment that "deity" is a slippery term here" is spin. The article defines "deva" as "divine manifestations" and talks of deva as "gods," "goddesses," and other "divine manifestations" of forces of nature or moral principles. While obviously more complex than the monotheistic beliefs of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, Hinduism - including the TM variety - involves belief in supernatural beings, including deities and demons. Using the complexity of these beliefs to hint otherwise is spinning. So is claiming that someone is not a participant who also watches. The argument that TM initiates aren't participating in the ceremony because they also witness what the teacher does is like saying only the priest participates in a Roman Catholic mass. All the bible page turning, hymn singing, money donating, amening, and "eating" of "Jesus' flesh" and "drinking his blood" is NOT participating in that religious ceremony. In other words Sparaig, you appear to be arguing that watching the TM teacher perform the religious ceremony "transmutates" the initiate from a participant into just a witness. Now that's what I call a miracle - the miracle of transcendental spinning. Can I have a Jai Guru Dev?. Askolnick 14:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
- The student brings the flowers and whatnot and gives them to the teacher, who then uses them. If this is "participation" in your book, then fine. Not everyone feels that way. The *presence* of teh student is required. My recollection is tht even if the student fails to bring flowers and whatnot, at least some teaachers have been willing to provide their own to complete the ceremony, though its been 30 years since I started so I certainly can be wrong there.
- BTW,, the typical daily Yogic Flying figure in MUM is said to be more like 500-600 morning and evening. The "nearly 2000" figure apparently refers to the people who have learned the Sidhis who live in Fairfield. It may or may not include a large number who have turned to other gurus over the years and ar no longer allowed to participate in the group hopping thing. [4]. Sparaig 19:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
interesting reference on history of Maharishi and TM organization
As an aside, Dr. Coplin says MMY was born in 1912, so now we have a THIRD date.
This is from this guy's PhD dissertation in Sociology.
Socio-Historical Context for SRM's Emergence
SRM as Cultural Revitalization
Sparaig 17:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Sanitizing Maharishi's biography
An anonymous user has tried to sanitize this article by removing all material concerning allegations of Maharishi's sexual misconduct, which was well-documented. I therefore replaced it. (He/she had even removed the part about the most famous of all of Maharishi's past and present followers - the Beatles!). For the record, here is the rule he/she claimed justified his/her deletion:
- "Articles about living persons require a degree of sensitivity and must adhere strictly to Wikipedia's content policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page. Responsibility for justifying controversial claims rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim."
Because the information he/she removed was well-sourced, that deletion was improper and needed to be restored.Askolnick 12:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Peterklutz range-blocked
Crossposting. Sorry guys, I wasn't watching very closely. I have now blocked Peterklutz's entire IP range for a month to give you a bit of peace. I'm hoping it won't cause a lot of collateral damage to innocent anons. And if he starts riding the open proxies again, I suppose I'll semiprotect Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Transcendental meditation if you give me a shout. Mind you, MMY is such a mess anyway... anybody feel like cleaning it up a bit? Bishonen | talk 02:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC).
Poor sourcing: I may remove these claims
The Maharishi University of Management which is invoked as a source for the early 1970s research at UCLA and Harvard in the section "Procedures and Theory" is a really bad source in such a context. (By contrast, it might well be a good source for, say, TM teachings and doctrine.) If you click on the link to the MUM website, it turns out to refer in turn, vaguely, to publication "from 1970 to 1972 in the respected journals Science, American Journal of Physiology, and Scientific American." Bah. What we need for the TM article are direct references to those published studies in those (indeed) respected journals. If those references exist somewhere on the MUM site, I haven't found them. I request that somebody takes the time to look up the 1970 to 1972 issues of the original journals and produces real references. The dream would be web versions of the articles in question, of course. If this is not done within a reasonable space of time, say four weeks from today, I'm going to remove the whole thing as unsourced. Talking about Harvard and Scientific American, while actually only having access to MUM's selected and rephrased version of what's in them just doesn't fly. Bishonen | talk 16:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Pager&DB=pubmed
keyword: wallace RK
22: Wallace RK, Benson H, Wilson AF. Related Articles, Links A wakeful hypometabolic physiologic state. Am J Physiol. 1971 Sep;221(3):795-9. No abstract available. PMID: 5570336 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 23: Wallace RK. Related Articles, Links [Physiological effects of transcendental meditation] Rev Bras Med. 1970 Aug;27(8):397-401. Portuguese. No abstract available. PMID: 5487313 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 24: Wallace RK. Related Articles, Links Physiological effects of transcendental meditation. Science. 1970 Mar 27;167(926):1751-4. No abstract available. PMID: 5416544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Sheesh. Earliest published research, all the ducks right in a row. That you don't trust MUM to get the references by their founding president right speaks volumes about you...Sparaig 17:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW, for some reason, the 1972 Scientific American study doesn't show up in medline, but Herbert Benson has photos of it as well as the charts taken from it on his website Relaxation Response homepage:
[5] Sparaig 17:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- If you think our readers are supposed to take such things on trust, I don't know what to tell you. It's nice that you were able to locate that information easily when challenged; I'm a bit surprised you didn't try before. Why put it on the talkpage, though? {{sofixit}} yourself. And please review WP:CIVIL and take a shot at using some other tone than a sneer. Bishonen | talk 19:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC).
- You're right, sorry. And I didn't notice the non-citation, so I never put it in. If you haven't, I will. Sparaig 00:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Subjunctive - neutral expressions
I am just trying to understand Bishonen's earlier reverts about my heading changes. In fact I had applied what any German (I am german) Journalist would do, not being aware of the use of subjunctive in English. You might want to read this [6]:'By using the special subjunctive, the newspaper is asserting its own neutrality concerning the claim's veracity. English does not provide so elegant a means. "He said that he was an honest person" - as opposed to "He said that he is an honest person" - is a kind of modified subjunctive that provides some distance, but it cannot be sustained over longer passages as easily as German's special subjunctive. Instead, English must rely on words like "allegedly" and frequent repetitions of "he said...."' I am glad you left my second suggestion, even though I don't think its optimal..But let me just make a few points: That something is said to be claim, doesn't mean that one has to leave a 'neutral voice', the claim can be cited in a self-distancing voice and should be so in WP for NPOV. According to the article [7] the english subjunctive would be something like this: 'He said that he was an honest person' In our case the headings would be:
- "The TM movement was a religion"
- "The TM movement was a cult"
etc. instead of
- "The TM movement being a religion"
- "The TM movement being a cult"
etc. As I am no native English speaker, its hard for me to decide which one is more neutral. I would also be interested in the opinion of Spairag
- I did understand what you were trying to do; "would" would work nicely in my mother tongue too. I reverted the headings because English doesn't have that feature, as you say, and thus your version didn't make sense to an anglophone. IMO "being" has a fair chance of being understood (though it doesn't sound any too idiomatic), while "was" has no chance at all, it just sounds strange. Bishonen | talk 19:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC).
- "He said that he was an honest person," implies that the person was honest in the past, but may have stopped being honest. If you want to convey that the person claims he was and continues to be honest, then you need to say, "He said that he is was and is an honest person." If you mean he's honest now, without commenting about the past, then you'd say, "He said that he is an honest person."
- Verbs in English don't quite behave the way they do in German. Verstehen?
- Saying "The TM movement was a religion," means that it was a religion and implies that it is no longer a religion.
- Saying "The TM movement being a religion," is not grammatical; it's actually an incomplete sentence. "Being a religion" stands as a explanatory clause in this sentence; it is not the verb and predicate.
- Two verbs which are identical in writing do not have to be the same case. In this sense there seems to be a limited subjunctive case in english, which is different from past sense - and still are identical. If you say: 'he was and is an honest person' was is past sense, what is not implied here. Its not my language, but one word can, according to context, mean different things.Or, do you mean to say there is no subjunctive in english language? 'The TM movement being a religion' is not a complete sentence, but then its a heading, as such it doesn't have to be a complete sentence; as it is, it is the only compromise we have for the moment. -- hanumanॐ^ 23:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Yes, there is a subjunctive mood in English. But English is moving away from its use, as the Wiki article states [8]. The point I was trying to make is that just the words, "The TM movement being a religion," makes no clear sense in English. Those words need additional words to make sense - for example: "The TM movement, being a religion, may not be taught in public schools in the United States." But just the words, "The TM movement being a religion," makes no clear sense. I'm not sure what you want to say with those words so I can't even suggest a fix.
- As for what TM's critics say, they say TM is a religion. TMers vehemently deny this, but that's what the movement's critics say (and U.S. Federal Courts basically agree with the critics: the courts declared that TM is too relgious to be taught in public schools). So I think the proper heading for this section should reflect what the critics allege: TM is a religion.Askolnick 03:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- Too bad you don't understand, I thought I was clear. I certainly disagree with you that WP should reflect the critics opinion without a distance. If the phrase is not a complete sentence, it can be extended,for example: 'The question of the TM movement being a religion' instead of WP owning the position of the critics in its phraseology. That would be a more neutral way of expression, consistent with NPOV. -- hanumanॐ^ 13:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, Hanumandas, you were not clear. "The TM movement being a religion," makes no sense at all. That combination of words has no meaning. And I stand by our duty to accurately reflect the view points of TM critics, as well as defenders, and not to sanitize them or make them more neutral sounding.
- I didn't write those headlines and I have any need to defend them. But I am opposed to replacing them with unintelligible words, such as "The TM movement being a religion." If you can come up with a better replacement, I'd be all for it. In my opinion, placing quotation marks around each of the headings would make it clearer that those are the critic's opinions, not Wiki's.Askolnick 15:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, quotation marks are surely one means, which we already applied. IMO headings don't require to be phrases or sentences, simply a word like 'Religion' or 'Religous Nature' would be sufficient to indicate the topic. Then in the text underneath, which is not in bold, the postion of critics can be stated, while the sentence will contain that this is the belief of critics. In this context its okay of course. Just like it was before, the context, that these are claims of critics, which was written in not-bold, and underneath in bold the actual claims with lots of text inbetween the context sort of got lost. The heading (its actually a list element) Religion, which is in bold does not have to be in Quotation marks, but the word "Cult" should be, as it is usually regarded as an emotionally negative word.What do you think?--hanumanॐ^ 11:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- In my opinion, use of the quotation marks solves the problem. It tells the reader that the quoted words are not (necessarily) the opinion of any Wiki editor, but are the opinions of critics, as the precedeing text clearly indicates. I believe good writing should be as clear and informative as possible. I think those list elements help the reader locate and identify the context of the text that follows -- much more so than saying "Religion" which could mean virtually anything. I think "Religious Nature" would be misleading, because critics say TM is a religion, not that it has a "religious nature." If your problem with the the list element titles is that you don't want readers to think Wiki editors are saying those words, then I think the quotation marks solve the problem. I'd be happy to agree to better wording, but in my opinion, the wordings you've suggested so far are not better. Askolnick 14:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Comentators on Malnak v Yogi have often pointed out that the door was left open to allow TM in public schools in a substantially different form than it was used in NJ. The fact that there are public charter schools in the US where kids practice TM during class hours under school supervision certainly suggests that this was a decent call. Americans United for Separation of Church and State was one of the plaintiffs in Malnak v Yogi, IIRC, and they apparently haven't called for a new day in court. Sparaig 03:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sparig, this is spin based on the opinions of nameless, faceless "commentators." The opinion that matters here is the ruling of two federal courts that decided the TM initiation ceremony is a Hindu religious ceremony. Now if Maharishi would like to offer meditation instructions stripped of the initiation ceremony and other Hinduism-based content, then he would be allowed to teach TM in public schools. But he's not going to do that. His life-long plan is to see the entire world governed by his Hindu theocracy. The judge's ruling rested on three legs, and one of those legs was the observation that TM's mandatory initiation ceremony called a "puja," is by definition a religious Hindu ceremony. No amount of spin and obfuscation can change this. Askolnick 15:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- The "nameless, faceless comentators" are often the authors of articles in mainstream legal journals, and we already have evidence that there are ways of teaching TM in public schools that don't trigger lawsuits since entire public charter schools (at least one or two) have been setting aside time for TM practice at the start and end of the school day. Thus far, I haven't heard of any lawsuits coming to trial, and these school programs have been in existence for some time now. BTW, the TM puja was made up by MMY to honor his teacher. It is NOT a traditional Hindu ceremony, although it incorporates elements of various Hindu ceremonies. One could claim that it is a "TM religious ceremony" because one claims that TM is a religion, but logically speaking, regardless of what the courts said, its not proper to claim it to be "Hindu" in the religious sense. It didn't exist before MMY started teaching TM. Similar ceremonies are done for a variety of reasons in India by secular as well as religious Indians. That doesn't say that the courts were wrong (or right) to claim it religious, only that it is NOT part of any mainstream Hindu religious practice. It's a TM-specific ceremony. Double-BTW, even in the original Malnak v Yogi case, TM was taught OUTSIDE the physical school property (or such is my understanding), so that by itself wasn't an important issue. It was the combination of factors that lead to the decision. Any single factor, by itself, may or may not have led to the same decision, and as I said, there's evidence that the TMO has found a way around the decision since TM IS practiced in public school systems in this country using private funding, sans theoretical discussion and I haven't heard of any lawsuits. Sparaig 23:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sparig, this is spin based on the opinions of nameless, faceless "commentators." The opinion that matters here is the ruling of two federal courts that decided the TM initiation ceremony is a Hindu religious ceremony. Now if Maharishi would like to offer meditation instructions stripped of the initiation ceremony and other Hinduism-based content, then he would be allowed to teach TM in public schools. But he's not going to do that. His life-long plan is to see the entire world governed by his Hindu theocracy. The judge's ruling rested on three legs, and one of those legs was the observation that TM's mandatory initiation ceremony called a "puja," is by definition a religious Hindu ceremony. No amount of spin and obfuscation can change this. Askolnick 15:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- It's fascinating how you respond to my argument that what you posted was spin based on anonymous, faceless commentators by offering only more spin based on anonymous, faceless commentators. Unless Maharishi is now teaching TM without his mandatory Hindu ceremony for all initiates, it continues to be a violation of the U.S. Constitution to teach TM in public schools. There has been NO change in the Federal Court rulings that teaching TM in public schools violates the Establishment Clause of the Constitution - in large part because of TM's religious initiation ceremony. Frankly, I'm getting dizzy from all this spinning: That the mandatory initiation ceremony is "a TM-specific ceremony" which is "NOT part of any mainstream Hindu religious practice" is nothing but red herring spin apparently to confuse issues. The issue addressed by the courts was not how unique or how traditional TM religious practices are. The issue is that the TM iniatiation procedure is clearly a thinly disguised religious Hindu ceremony. Although told that TM is not religious, initiates are compelled to take part in the TM puja to offer gifts and thanks to Guru Dev and other Hindu deities. And that's only the start of the TM movement's deceptions. Until the TM movement goes to court and obtains a new opinion, the ruling in Malnak v Yogi stands: TM is too religious to be taught in public schools. And no amount of TM spinning is going to change that fact.Askolnick 14:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- One man's spin is another man's attempt at clarification. BTW, I note that you don't adress my points but simply wavse your hands a lot as though this addresses them: TM *IS* being practiced under school supervision in at least one or more public charter schools and the people who brought lawsuits last time apparently haven't bothered to bring lawsuits this time, at least as yet. Double-BTW, the federal courts upheld a state court ruling. The specific case of Malnak v Yogi is NOT binding on the rest of the USA. There may have been other cases since then that I'm not familiar with. Sparaig 00:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- It's fascinating how you respond to my argument that what you posted was spin based on anonymous, faceless commentators by offering only more spin based on anonymous, faceless commentators. Unless Maharishi is now teaching TM without his mandatory Hindu ceremony for all initiates, it continues to be a violation of the U.S. Constitution to teach TM in public schools. There has been NO change in the Federal Court rulings that teaching TM in public schools violates the Establishment Clause of the Constitution - in large part because of TM's religious initiation ceremony. Frankly, I'm getting dizzy from all this spinning: That the mandatory initiation ceremony is "a TM-specific ceremony" which is "NOT part of any mainstream Hindu religious practice" is nothing but red herring spin apparently to confuse issues. The issue addressed by the courts was not how unique or how traditional TM religious practices are. The issue is that the TM iniatiation procedure is clearly a thinly disguised religious Hindu ceremony. Although told that TM is not religious, initiates are compelled to take part in the TM puja to offer gifts and thanks to Guru Dev and other Hindu deities. And that's only the start of the TM movement's deceptions. Until the TM movement goes to court and obtains a new opinion, the ruling in Malnak v Yogi stands: TM is too religious to be taught in public schools. And no amount of TM spinning is going to change that fact.Askolnick 14:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sparaig, if you don't bother to get your facts correct, please don't bother the rest of us with this constant drumming of false and misleading statements. Malnak v Yogi was decided in the 2nd District FEDERAL court in New Jersey - NOT a state court. A FEDERAL 3rd Circuit appeals court upheld the ruling in 1979. And you are wrong to suggest that those rulings are not binding in other jurisdictions. Unless and until a higher FEDERAL court (ie. the U.S. Supreme Court) reverses the ruling, Malnak v. Yogi has served and will continue to serve as legal precedence in other state and federal court cases. Unlike state court rulings, Federal court rulings carry weight in all state and federal courts throughout the country. Whether some schools are teaching TM is not evidence that teaching TM is public schools is constitutional. We all know that preaching the Godspell of Jesus Christ in public schools and public-funded military academies is unconstitutional. Yet it continues to be done. The fact that some people ignore the law is not evidence that their conduct is legal. The parties that sued Maharishi Mahesh Yogi were parents of New Jersey school children. You apparently don't know that a party cannot sue unless he or she has lawful standing before the court. So unless Malnak et al has children -- 30 years after Malnak v. Yogi -- and that those children are in the school districts that you claim are offering TM instructions, they would have absolutely no standing for filing a suit. Finally, I am not surprised that you don't know the difference between spin and clarification. You should look up the meaning of these terms before trying to clarify anything more for us. Askolnick 04:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- The case was a lawsuit brought in New Jersey against a New Jersey school system and the TMO. The original ruling and every subsequent ruling was concerning that lawsuit. The lawsuit explicitly says that TM/SCI may not be taught in New Jersey. If some other court wishes to use Malnak v Yogi as precedent, they certainly can, but it is NOT a legally binding ruling anywhere save in the jurisdiction of the 3rd Circuit Court and the court specifically only ruled on its teaching in NJ. And, as I have pointed out, the specifics of the New Jersey case may not apply elsewhere where TM is taught. Specifically, in the public charter school case, TM is not funded by public money, and no SCI or other theoretical class relevant to TM is taught by the school. These were important issues in the original ruling, which I have a copy of. The court was careful to rule that "TM/SCI" could not be taught in the public schools in New Jersey. The practice of TM by itself was NOT discussed by the Meanor court save to point out that it was not the sole focus of the class--SCI teaching and discussion took up far more time than the practice of TM did. TM+SCI+puja was examined by the original court and the appeals courts. TM+puja was NOT considered by themselves and a ruling that explicitly examines all three at once and makes a decision on this basis cannot be used be used to make a decision on 2 out of 3. Sparaig 15:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sparaig, if you don't bother to get your facts correct, please don't bother the rest of us with this constant drumming of false and misleading statements. Malnak v Yogi was decided in the 2nd District FEDERAL court in New Jersey - NOT a state court. A FEDERAL 3rd Circuit appeals court upheld the ruling in 1979. And you are wrong to suggest that those rulings are not binding in other jurisdictions. Unless and until a higher FEDERAL court (ie. the U.S. Supreme Court) reverses the ruling, Malnak v. Yogi has served and will continue to serve as legal precedence in other state and federal court cases. Unlike state court rulings, Federal court rulings carry weight in all state and federal courts throughout the country. Whether some schools are teaching TM is not evidence that teaching TM is public schools is constitutional. We all know that preaching the Godspell of Jesus Christ in public schools and public-funded military academies is unconstitutional. Yet it continues to be done. The fact that some people ignore the law is not evidence that their conduct is legal. The parties that sued Maharishi Mahesh Yogi were parents of New Jersey school children. You apparently don't know that a party cannot sue unless he or she has lawful standing before the court. So unless Malnak et al has children -- 30 years after Malnak v. Yogi -- and that those children are in the school districts that you claim are offering TM instructions, they would have absolutely no standing for filing a suit. Finally, I am not surprised that you don't know the difference between spin and clarification. You should look up the meaning of these terms before trying to clarify anything more for us. Askolnick 04:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sparaig, you continue to misrepresent the meaning of these Federal court rulings. They do NOT apply only to New Jersey. Unless and until a higher court reverses Malnak v. Yogi, the ruling, upheld by the 3rd Circuit Appeals Court, remains the guiding case law throughout the United States. What violates the U.S. Constitution in New Jersey violates the U.S. Constitution in every state. You also misrepresent the judges ruling, which also prohibited the U.S. Department of Education (then called the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare) from further funding TM instructions through educational grants - in ANY state. I won't bother addressing the rest of the spin and obfuscation, because I don't want to tear a surgical stitch from laughing. Askolnick 00:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- Andrew, as I have pointed out, the injuction is *binding* only in the jurisdiction of the 3rd District Court. And careful reading of the ruling shows that it refers to funding and facilitating by the federal government and the state and local governments of New Jersey. It says NOTHING about the teaching of TM using private funding while the PRACTICE of TM, by itself, not "TM/SCI," is facilitated in public schools outside of New Jersey:
- Sparaig, you continue to misrepresent the meaning of these Federal court rulings. They do NOT apply only to New Jersey. Unless and until a higher court reverses Malnak v. Yogi, the ruling, upheld by the 3rd Circuit Appeals Court, remains the guiding case law throughout the United States. What violates the U.S. Constitution in New Jersey violates the U.S. Constitution in every state. You also misrepresent the judges ruling, which also prohibited the U.S. Department of Education (then called the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare) from further funding TM instructions through educational grants - in ANY state. I won't bother addressing the rest of the spin and obfuscation, because I don't want to tear a surgical stitch from laughing. Askolnick 00:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- IT IS on this 12 day of December, 1977, hereby Ordered and Adjudged that judgment be entered, declaring:
- 1. That the Science of Creative Intelligence/Transcendental Meditation and the teaching thereof, the concepts of the field of pure creative intelligence, creative intelligence and bliss consciousness, the textbook entitled Science of Creative Intelligence for Secondary Education--First Year Course--Dawn of the First Year of the Age of Enlightenment, and the puja ceremony, are all religious in nature within the context of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and the teaching thereof in the New Jersey public schools is therefore unconstitutional.
- 2. That Defendants World Plan Executive Council--United States; Jerome W. Jarvis; Robert B. Kory; Janet Aaron; Board of Education of Maplewood-South Orange, New Jersey School District; Board of Education of West New York, New Jersey School District; Board of Education of Union City, New Jersey School District; Board of Education of Patterson, New Jersey School District; New Jersey State Department of Education; New Jersev State Board of Education; Fred G. Burke, as New Jersey Commissioner of Education; Charles Wilson; State of New Jersey and Joseph A. Califano, Jr., Secretary of the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare; and the respective officers, agents, employees or any other person or entity acting for or at the behest of any of the foregoing, be and hereby are permanently enjoined:
- (1) From the teaching, aiding in the teaching (including but not limited to the providing of teaching materials), and the solicitation of any municipality, school board or other political subdivision or governmental agency of the State of New Jersey or of the Federal government, for the purpose of promoting the teaching of any course of study which embodies and advocates any one or more of the Science of Creative Intelligence/Transcendental Meditation, the concepts of the field of pure creative intelligence, creative intelligence and bliss-consciousness;
- (2) From the use of the textbook entitled Science of Creative Intelligence for Secondary Education--First Year Course--Dawn of the First Year of the Age of Enlightenment, (or its substantial equivalent) and;
- (3) From the practice of Transcendental Meditation or of the puja ceremony as heretofore practiced or performed (or the substantial equivalent of either), in any public school in the State of New Jersey;
- 2. That Defendants World Plan Executive Council--United States; Jerome W. Jarvis; Robert B. Kory; Janet Aaron; Board of Education of Maplewood-South Orange, New Jersey School District; Board of Education of West New York, New Jersey School District; Board of Education of Union City, New Jersey School District; Board of Education of Patterson, New Jersey School District; New Jersey State Department of Education; New Jersev State Board of Education; Fred G. Burke, as New Jersey Commissioner of Education; Charles Wilson; State of New Jersey and Joseph A. Califano, Jr., Secretary of the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare; and the respective officers, agents, employees or any other person or entity acting for or at the behest of any of the foregoing, be and hereby are permanently enjoined:
- 3. That costs shall be allowed to Plaintiffs.
- This Court retains full jurisdiction as to all matters relating to the above-captioned case, subject only to the effect of any appeal from this judgment.
- I can't believe I have to explain this AGAIN: If Federals Courts rule that teaching TM in New Jersey public schools is unconstitutional then it is unconstitutional in public schools throughout the United States. The U.S. Constitution protects the citizens of every state, not just people who live in New Jersey. The case before the court involved the New Jersey school system, so the court decision barred the New Jersey school system from continuing to teach TM. If other states were also violating the Establishment Clause of the Constitution, the courts would have also named them in the decision. It shouldn't take a legal scholar to understand that what violates the U.S. Constitution in New Jersey would also violate the U.S. Constitution in any other state that tries to teach Hindu or other religious doctrines to public school students. And yes, I know, some schools continue to do this, whether it's teaching the Godspell of Jesus Christ or the Godspell of Mahesh Yogi, it is still unconstitutional. Court battles continue today because too many school board members still won't accept the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 215 years after it was ratified.
- For nearly 30 years, the TM movement has tried to convince its members and the public that the decision in Malnik v. Yogi. That is nothing but spin. When the Federal courts decided that "the practice of Transcendental Meditation or of the puja ceremony as heretofore practiced or performed (or the substantial equivalent of either), in any public school in the State of New Jersey" is unconstitutional, they effectively established that it is unconstitutional to do so anywhere else in the United States - because every citizen of the United States is protected by the same Constitution and Bill or Rights. In its 1954 Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas decision, the U.S. Supreme Court declared the laws of Kansas that permitted public school segregation to be unconstitutional. In a unanimous decision, the justices ruled racially "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." That decision made it unconstituional to racially segregate students in every state of the union, because the U.S. Constitution protects students everywhere, not just in the Topeka, Kansas.Askolnick 14:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- Andrew, you need to look up the definition of binding vs persuasive precedent. Here, let Wikipedia help: Precedent. Also, look up the definition of Stare decisis. The case you site involving the Supreme Court is binding throughout the USA because the US Supreme Court trumps all lower courts. The US Circuit Courts do not and CANNOT issue judgements that are binding in the jurisdiction of any other circuit court. Aditionally, there are differences between the situation in New Jersey and the situation elsewhere that would require a new court decision to decide the issue. The Malnak v Yogi ruling left possible loopholes which the TMO obvioiusly is trying to take advantage of. The situations are different enough, to me at least (and I suspect to lower courts that might be handed any new case) that the decision of Malnak v Yogi may not apply. Certainly, Malnak v Yogi established a well-referenced test for religiousness, but that is my point: it is entirely possible that the new situation will pass the Malnak test. That doesn't mean the teaching of TM will be allowed to continue in the non-NJ school systems, only that the Malnak test, by itself, won't be sufficient to determine what to do. Sparaig 16:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- For nearly 30 years, the TM movement has tried to convince its members and the public that the decision in Malnik v. Yogi. That is nothing but spin. When the Federal courts decided that "the practice of Transcendental Meditation or of the puja ceremony as heretofore practiced or performed (or the substantial equivalent of either), in any public school in the State of New Jersey" is unconstitutional, they effectively established that it is unconstitutional to do so anywhere else in the United States - because every citizen of the United States is protected by the same Constitution and Bill or Rights. In its 1954 Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas decision, the U.S. Supreme Court declared the laws of Kansas that permitted public school segregation to be unconstitutional. In a unanimous decision, the justices ruled racially "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." That decision made it unconstituional to racially segregate students in every state of the union, because the U.S. Constitution protects students everywhere, not just in the Topeka, Kansas.Askolnick 14:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- While US Circuit Courts do not and CANNOT issue judgements that are binding in the jurisdiction of any other circuit court, they commonly issue judgements that become the standard used by all other courts. Such is the case of Malnak v. Yogi. For nearly 30 years, numerous courts have cited the landmark case as the basis for their rulings. Rather than being challenged before the U.S. Supreme Court, the ruling and three decades of case law which followed have essentially established the findings in Malnak v. Yogi as law of the land. But you are right when you say, if the "situations are different enough, the decision of Malnak v. Yogi may not apply." If Maharishi will remove his religious content from the TM initiation ceremony, then Malnak v. Yogi may no longer apply. But you know he won't. Therefore, unless Maharishi says it's O.K. to take this to the U.S. Supreme Court, the ruling in Malnak v. Yogi makes it clear that teaching TM in public schools violates the Constitution's Establishment Clause. (You probably know Maharishi won't do this since he wants his movement to continue claiming that the ruling only applies to New Jersey - as you do here), the ruling in Malnak v. Yogi makes it clear that teaching TM in public schools violates the Constitution's Establishment Clause. For 30 years, the TM movement has simply denied the court's conclusion, that the TM initiation ceremony is based on Maharishi's brand of Hinduism. It has not gone to the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the courts' ruling that TM is a religious practice and therefore may not be taught in public schools. Instead, it has its apologists scurrying about making false and misleading statements that TM is only considered a relgious practice by courts in New Jersey. Like the rumps of 7000 TM-Sidhas, that argument won't fly. As I've pointed out, courts in other states have used Malnak v. Yogi to guide their decisions in protecting the Constitutional rights of students throughout the United States.Askolnick 12:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, they generally have used the Malnak TEST to guide other rulings, not the case itself. The case is extremely limited in scope, and as I keep telling you, may not apply to how TM is used in other public schools in the country. And you sound very illogical here. If MMY's primary goal was stealth Hinduism, he would certainly be willing to cancel the use of the puja unless he agrees with what you apparently believe: handing fruit and flowers to soomone iat the beginning of a ceremony makes the TM student a Hindu. Likewise, if his goal was to sell TM for the sake of money, he'd be willing to forgo the puja. It seems very obvious that his stated reasons for requiring the puja are the ones he believes are true: 1) it honors his teacher and 2) he believes that TM doesn't work without the puja being performed first. The second is obviously HIS religious belief, but I don't think Malnak v Yogi was decided ONLY because MMY has hindu beliefs. Sparaig 16:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- While US Circuit Courts do not and CANNOT issue judgements that are binding in the jurisdiction of any other circuit court, they commonly issue judgements that become the standard used by all other courts. Such is the case of Malnak v. Yogi. For nearly 30 years, numerous courts have cited the landmark case as the basis for their rulings. Rather than being challenged before the U.S. Supreme Court, the ruling and three decades of case law which followed have essentially established the findings in Malnak v. Yogi as law of the land. But you are right when you say, if the "situations are different enough, the decision of Malnak v. Yogi may not apply." If Maharishi will remove his religious content from the TM initiation ceremony, then Malnak v. Yogi may no longer apply. But you know he won't. Therefore, unless Maharishi says it's O.K. to take this to the U.S. Supreme Court, the ruling in Malnak v. Yogi makes it clear that teaching TM in public schools violates the Constitution's Establishment Clause. (You probably know Maharishi won't do this since he wants his movement to continue claiming that the ruling only applies to New Jersey - as you do here), the ruling in Malnak v. Yogi makes it clear that teaching TM in public schools violates the Constitution's Establishment Clause. For 30 years, the TM movement has simply denied the court's conclusion, that the TM initiation ceremony is based on Maharishi's brand of Hinduism. It has not gone to the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the courts' ruling that TM is a religious practice and therefore may not be taught in public schools. Instead, it has its apologists scurrying about making false and misleading statements that TM is only considered a relgious practice by courts in New Jersey. Like the rumps of 7000 TM-Sidhas, that argument won't fly. As I've pointed out, courts in other states have used Malnak v. Yogi to guide their decisions in protecting the Constitutional rights of students throughout the United States.Askolnick 12:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, the landmark case was decided because the courts don't believe it's constitutional to have public school students participating in ceremonies that foster Mahesh Yogi's religious beliefs. What his religious beliefs are is irrelevant. What was relevant was that school children were unknowingly being exposed to those religious beliefs. Malnak v. Yogi found that the TM inititiation ceremony is a thinly disguised Hindu ceremony, in which the inititate is invited to bow before Hindu deities - including Maharishi's deified teacher. Here is the court's translation of just one part of the TM teacher's chant, which is spoken as he/she bows before the picture of the deified "Guru Dev":
- "The Unbounded, like the endless canopy of the sky, the omnipresent in all creation to Him, to Shri Guru Dev, I bow down, the Eternal, the Pure, the Immovable ... to Shri Guru Dev, I bow down."
- There are similar genuflections to other Hindu deities during the TM inititiation puja. This was one of the three reasons the courts cited for deciding that teaching TM is teaching religion and therefor prohibited by the U.S. Constitution. Imposing such religious worship on public schools students is unconstitutional in any American public school - not just in New Jersey as you continue to misleadingly suggest. Such disingeuous spin has not convinced anyone but Maharishi's followers, who view their guru's words as Godpell truth. The rest of us are not so easily persuaded. What is unconstitutional in New Jersey public schools is unconstitutional in every public school througout the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees all Americans equal protection under our federal laws. People in every state and territory of the United States are protected by the same Constitutioni that protects people in New Jersey. No amount of "SIMS shuffling" is going to change this fact. It is unconsitutional for the government to fund religious instructions in public schools throughout the United States. It doesn't matter if the instruction involves the Godspell of Jesus Christ or the Godspell of Mahesh Yogi. It's unconstitutional, period. That's why the decision of Malnak v. Yogi has stood for three decades and has served to guide American courts throughout the land. No amount of SIMS shuffling is going to change that fact. Teaching TM involves teaching religious beliefs. Therefore, it cannot be taught by any school run by national, state, or local government. That's been the law of the land for nearly 30 years. Get over it. Askolnick 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- As I said, there are differences between the public charter school and its involvement in TM touted on David Lynch's website and the Malnak v Yogi case, and these differences may be (or may not be) substantial enough to circumvent the Malnak test. Towit, the instruction is privately funded, and there is no classtime spent on theoretical discussions. Sparaig 22:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- There are similar genuflections to other Hindu deities during the TM inititiation puja. This was one of the three reasons the courts cited for deciding that teaching TM is teaching religion and therefor prohibited by the U.S. Constitution. Imposing such religious worship on public schools students is unconstitutional in any American public school - not just in New Jersey as you continue to misleadingly suggest. Such disingeuous spin has not convinced anyone but Maharishi's followers, who view their guru's words as Godpell truth. The rest of us are not so easily persuaded. What is unconstitutional in New Jersey public schools is unconstitutional in every public school througout the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees all Americans equal protection under our federal laws. People in every state and territory of the United States are protected by the same Constitutioni that protects people in New Jersey. No amount of "SIMS shuffling" is going to change this fact. It is unconsitutional for the government to fund religious instructions in public schools throughout the United States. It doesn't matter if the instruction involves the Godspell of Jesus Christ or the Godspell of Mahesh Yogi. It's unconstitutional, period. That's why the decision of Malnak v. Yogi has stood for three decades and has served to guide American courts throughout the land. No amount of SIMS shuffling is going to change that fact. Teaching TM involves teaching religious beliefs. Therefore, it cannot be taught by any school run by national, state, or local government. That's been the law of the land for nearly 30 years. Get over it. Askolnick 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Increasingly
I had erased increasingly from the sentence: Still, the link between TM and Hinduism, from where the movement's founder Maharishi Mahesh Yogi comes, appears to become increasingly evident as time passes. Askolnik commented If these were NPOV, they wouldn't be complaints of critics. The comment is already qualified by "appears": "increasingly" is important point of the critics.) But this seems to be a wrong use of language, because, either something is evident or not. Of course something can become evident, but once it is evident, it is simply evident. So the qualifier increasingly is really completely unnecessary, and is in fact just a phrase of rethoric to emphazise. Askolnik argues that this is what the critics say, but here critics is just a generic term without anybody specific being cited. In stating the opinion of critics - in fact in a general way - any aditional emphazis should be avoided because of NPOV. WP policies state that the reader of the article should have the impression that the whole article is written in one voice, and that he cannot make out at any point the opinion of the editor. Leaving off words like 'increasingly' is just one example of following this rule. In fact, I think one should avoidof making POV statements, by (only vaguely) disguising them as anonymous statements. You can always say: Critics say: and then say whatever you want, but even then you have to take care of the tone AFAIunderstand. As long as you don't have a specific quote, within quotqtion marks, one should follow a distanced style, and avoid any expressive or strengthening words. Otherwise its a minor thing to me, and I won't fight for it, but all these things tend to add up. Even words like Still, .. express opinion. You can look it up in the WP guidelines.So I tried to make a better suggestion -- hanumanॐ^ 19:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
- First, I find that sentence to be very awkward and I would welcome a better rewrite. Your suggestions are appreciated. However, the point that needs to be communicated is that TM's critics claim that TM is clearly based on Hindu religious beliefs and that this fact has become clearer over time, as Maharishi introduced more and more of his Hindu-based products and services around the world. This is a pretty safe point to make. I don't think anyone would say TM's critics don't argue this.
- No, "increasingly" is not used as a qualifier to emphasize or strengthen. It's used to point out that the Hinduism foundation of TM has become increasingly clear as Maharishi expanded the products and services his movement sells and hypes.
- When communicating the views and allegations of critics, one can hardly avoid expressing a point of view - because that's exactly what we're trying to do: communicate the point of view of TM's critics. If you think citing a critic is necessary, no problem. It would be easy to do so. But efforts to make the opinions of critics more neutral would be factually incorrect. So what is necessary is to describe the critics' views - which are certainly not neutral - in a neutral way.
- Being "evident" is not like being "pregnant"; There can be degrees. One condition can be much more evident than another. "Evident" means "apparent," "obvious," "easily seen," "easily understood." "When the fog lifted, the path through the jungle became more evident to the explorers." "The solution to the math problem became more evident to students after the teacher drew a diagram." Nicht wahr?
- Well, as you say Evident" means "apparent," "obvious," "easily seen," "easily understood." , 'easily seen' is either easily seen, or not easily seen (e.g. difficult to see), so you actually contradict yourself here. This is even more obvious when you say the point that needs to be communicated is that TM's critics claim that TM is clearly based on Hindu religious belief Really, its enough to say 'TM's critics claim that TM is based on Hindu religious belief', the clearly is unnecessary, just a word added in trying to strengthen ones position. But for that one should use facts und sources. Thats enough really. -- hanumanॐ^ 13:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- As Wiki editors, we shouldn't alter the arguments of critics say, to make them appear more neutral. Our job as editors is to accurately represent their opinions, not sanitize them or make them more neutral. As for contradicting oneself, you just did this by writing, "This is even more obvious when you say ..." Here you clearly recognize that there are different degrees of obviousness -- as there are different degrees of being apparent, easily seen, easily understood, and evident. More important, I don't think it is proper to be trying to tone down the views of critics or to make them more NPOV. TM's critics say the evidence for TM's religious nature is clear and has continued to mount. I do not understand your reasoning for wanting to substitute a weaker view.Askolnick 15:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- I think you have a major misunderstanding about WP:NPOV here, Askolnick. NPOV applies throughout the article. That means that both sides of an argument should be given, regarding its content, but that doesn't mean that polemics in tone or style should be repeated. You somehow seem to think that under the heading Critics the critics simply make their version of the article, but that is not true. What the critics say must be reported, but it also should be viewed according to its relevance. Reporting is not imitating in style, and that is all my argument. Its not about a weaker view, but about neutral, not emotionally enhanced expressions.And you are right, in more obvious the more is superfluous, so I correct myself, it is simply obvious.But here I was arguing with you on a discussion page, were our expressions will not be strictly NPOV. For example here I can say what I believe, while at the article, I am simply an editor, right?
- See here WP:NPOV:We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves.Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. It's important to note this formulation is substantially different from the "some people believe..." formulation popular in political debates. The reference requires an identifiable and objectively quantifiable population or, better still, a name.
- Besides that, just to give you some food for thought, the whole argument of the 'critics' (who are they, saying it that way? I think it was just some figure of speech you invented to say what you want to say) is totally illogical, because TM is either a religion, or has religious aspects, or is a religion to some, and not to some others, but that doesn't change because now Ayurveda or Stapathyaveda is an add-on programm. Every item of this list can be scrutinized for its religiousness, but it is irrelevant for any other item of this list. Ayurveda for example is a prescientific system of medicine, which may incorporate some superstitious beliefs, but its in no way Hindu, as the Hindu pantheon plays no part in it. That it is called 'Veda' is purely incidental, here Veda means only a body of knowledge, as these texts are all in Sanskrit, any Indologist would say that has nothing to do with the Veda. Hindu gods like Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva play no role in it. Its all about some elements like fire, water, earth, and about pranas and nadis. Same is true for Stapathya Veda, its just not Veda and Hindu in the same way. Its just a very poor and illogical argument, very uninformed. The other thing is, whatever Ayurveda or Stapathya Veda maybe, does have no resemblance of the nature of TM, as these are standalone programmes, that is both Ayurveda and Stapathya Veda don't necessitate TM practise nor does TM practise necessitate the later. So if you feel like citing a critic, do it, but then we need name and quotation marks and source. --hanumanॐ^ 11:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am recovering from surgery earlier this week, so it is not an exaggeration to say that sitting in my office chair responding to your comments is a pain. Acutally it is big pain, so I'm going to have to stop after this. If you bothered to check the history of the article, you would see that your insulting comment is false. I did not create the content of the critic's section of the article, nor its format. So your allegation that this is "just some figure of speech" I "invented to say what" I "want to say" is as false as it is insulting. Also false is your claim that Maharishi Ayurveda is "in no way Hindu, as the Hindu pantheon plays no part in it." The Hindu pantheon plays a big part in Maharishi Ayurveda. The TM movement offers yagyas as one of its Ayurveda treatments. And yagyas are ceremonies performed by Hindu monks to appease Hindu deities.
- If YOU feel the need for someone to cite a source for any of the criticisms in the article, then please ask. Simply add a <fact> to the text. I'm sure someone will obige you since it would be very easy to cite sources for these critical views. Askolnick 15:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Askolnick, I wish you well with your recovery. Try to give yourself some rest. I am also very busy. Sorry to hear you feel insulted. What I said applies to the content, whoever created it. If you say its an insult to say that you created it, then why do you defend it? Ayurveda is indeed not in any way Hindu, but yagyas are. Yagyas though are not part of Ayurveda, it's a different type of program and is usually connected to Jyotish, Vedic Astrology, which is just another type of astrology. So yes, yagyas are Hindu, but Ayurveda isn't. The word veda plays no significant role for Ayurveda or Stapathyaveda as I said. Lets say things clearly in the article and not spread wrong information.I know that the movement offers yagyas, but I am unaware that it does so under the title of Ayurveda. Anyway, it's not Ayurveda, and if they included it, it is wrong. We do not have to repeat that mistake by saying 'Ayurveda is Hindu' It is not! Actually Hinduism is post-Vedic, but Ayurveda is not even Vedic. -- hanumanॐ^ 21:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, please, you know it was a insult to say that I "invented" the critics arguments so that I could "say what I want to say." That charge is as false as it is insulting. And please stop misrepresenting my statements. What I said was insulting was your allegation that I "invented" the critics ruse in order to present my own views as theirs. Please do not make any more false and unjustified personal attacks.
- Also, please refrain from making obfuscating statements. The subject of the discussion was Maharishi Ayurveda (R) - the trademarked line of products and services marketed by Maharishi and his organization. No one was talking about Ayurveda. As I repeatedly pointed out, Yagyas are among the Hindu-based practices being prescribed by Maharishi Ayurveda practitioners. I agree that we should "say things clearly in the article and not spread wrong information." To to that, we need to avoid misleading readers with confusing statements or obfuscations. When we're talking about trademarked TM products and services, we should NOT substitute generic terminology and then make false statements, such as your claiming Maharishi Ayurveda "is in no way Hindu," when the record shows it clearly is. Askolnick 00:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Maharishi "Developed" the Technique
I don't think Maharishi has ever said he "developed" Transcendental Medtiation. He always seems to credit Guru Dev and the Vedic tradition. So I changed it to "introduced," which is more commonly used. TimidGuy 19:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
He refined the technique into its current minimalist form and developed the teacher training process. Sparaig 10:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
- Then that's what the article should say. Neither "refining the meditation technique" or "developing a tearcher training process" means the same as "developing the meditation technique." Askolnick 11:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I think I'll change it to "first introduced."TimidGuy 15:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I reverted. "First introduced" is redudant. Introduction means makes a first appearanced. Unless you're talking about "introducing" a person to someone, there can only be one "introduction" of something. Askolnick 16:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Changing the word "claim"
The Guideline on Words to avoid says that the word "claim" shouldn't be used because "it carries a very strong connotation of dubiousness." I'd like to change the lead to remove this word, and thereby foster a more neutral point of view. As I have time, I may change other instances in this article. I hope everyone will agree with this.TimidGuy 15:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Topic of entry
Apologies. I should have included an item on the Talk page about the change of "techniques" to "technique." My thinking was that Transcendental Meditation and the TM-Sidhi program are different tecnhiques. The majority of people who learn Transcendental Meditation don't also learn the TM-Sidhi program. Maybe we should consider focusing on Transcendental Mediation in this entry, and then have a separate entry for the TM-Sidhi program. And thanks for removing the redundancy in my earlier edit. I thought of that right after I posted it.TimidGuy 16:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's best to leave it plural in the introduction because it's the only accurate way to describe the movement's crackpot claims of having scientifically proven that they've discovered the certain and sure way to create peace, prosperity, and heaven on earth. They claim to be able to do by practicing their "yogic flying" technique, not just the introductory TM technique. And they're hawking other meditation techniques to the suckers, claiming that they too will give them health, peace, and prosperity, while emptying their pockets.Askolnick 16:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Strong words. I guess that's my official welcome. : ) TimidGuy 17:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
- I calls'em as I sees'em. However, those words were not directed in any way at you. I've been watching the Mahesh Yogi and his merry band of followers now for nearly a quarter century. And that's how I sees'em. That's not only how I sees'em, it's how I've described them in a number of published articles, including an investigative news and perspective report in the Journal of the American Medical Association. What's more, I'm in rather good company. Many prominent scientists, educators, journalists, and others have strongly criticized Mahesh Yogi and his organization for hoodwinking so many people. I wasn't aware that you're posting here for the first time. Now that I am, welcome. Askolnick 17:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I hope we can work together to create an excellent Wikipedia entry, one that satisfies both of our perceptions of the reality of the situation.TimidGuy 20:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Maharishi Effect
I'm new and am still trying to figure out how this works. I was just looking at the History, and it looks as if Askolnick added a section about Maharishi claiming that thousands levitate. Was this discussed in the Talk section? Do the Guidelines require that it be discussed because this has been flagged a controversial article? Thanks for patience with newbies. TimidGuy
(Wrote this before I saw your nice contribution, askolnick, on my talk page, which clearly explained that indeed it's necessary to discuss changes.) TimidGuy
- My view is that simple, well-sourced additions of information that are not likely to be challenged do not necessarily need to be discussed first. The information I added is straightfoward and well-sourced - the book Flim-Flamm by James Randi which was already listed in the article as a source for information. I took the statement right from the book. I've had enough experience editing contentious articles to know what information is not likely to start an edit war. When in doubt, I'll discuss a change first. However, it's certainly wise for a newbie to discuss before making any substantial change. That will help avoid making mistakes that can be disruptive and cause unintended animosity. Askolnick 02:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks much. This does raise a question in my mind, though, about the extent of the material that keeps getting added to this article.
I've skimmed the guidelines and feel that I have at least a vague understanding of NPOV, how to handle differing views, reputable souces, etc. But in my cursory look at the guidelines I haven't yet seen any related to the overall shape and scope of an article. For example, suppose I were to add well-sourced material in each of the sections that seem to me to be anti-TM so that both points of view are represented. It seems like the article will become impossibly long. In fact, it already seems a little shapeless and unwieldy. It's hard for me to imagine how this article could ever evolve to a point where it's on a par with some of the truly extraodinary Wikipedia articles that I've seen. No doubt as I get more experience I'll have a sense for how this could work, but right now it's hard to envision. TimidGuy 15:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Well, you kind of answer parts of your own question here. "Truly extraordinary Wikipedia articles" are just that - truly extraordinary. The rest of Wikipedia consists of less-than-extraordinary articles. Generally the most outstanding articles are on less contentious subjects and written primarily by a few editors who share a similar outlook - at least on how Wiki articles should be written.
- It is hard for a mob (or even less-contentious groups) of editors to produce a substantial article that's well "shaped." What's more, the CSICOP article is a work in progress, and as the templates on top indicate, its neutrality and factual accuracy are under dispute.
- I'm a little puzzled by your argument that a) the article needs a balanced POV; b) adding more information favorable to the TM movement will lengthen the article; and c) adding more pro-TM material will make the article "impossibly long." Putting all these suppositions together it seems to point to the conclusion that material unfavorable to TM should be removed and replaced wit pro-TM material. Is that what you're arguing? Askolnick 16:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Not at all. I'm just trying to imagine, given the way that things are headed, how we could ever arrive at an excellent article. But your comments are very helpful, and I realize that editors involved in contentious articles can have a more modest goal. I really appreciate your taking the time to respond. TimidGuy
- Thanks. I'm happy to be of help. Askolnick 17:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
New "Breaking Away" section
I see that David Spector added a new section, which was discussed during July. Since this material doesn't reference a reputable source would it be considered "original research" and therefore disallowed? Thanks. TimidGuy 21:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- No, it does cite two sources, which are primary sources for most of those opinions. This section needs some editing. And he should provide a link to the web site for MMY's broadcasts. But I don't have the time right now to look at it more closely. In addition, the information he added is pretty much common knowledge among people familiar with the TM movement. Do you see a problem with any of the statements? Askolnick 03:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Gradually I learn this. It's helpful to have this understanding of common knowledge not needing to be sourced. What I meant to say was that there seemed to be background information in his post that wasn't referenced on these pages, making it "original research." But truthfully, I had only glanced at them. And in any case, the common knowledge argument would make it acceptable. TimidGuy 11:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Randi
In the Randi section of this article, there's a statement that reads "Randi concluded that Rabinoff's data were simply made up." I've read through that section of Randi's book twice and can't find where Randi concludes that. I even got out my reading glasses the second time to make sure I didn't miss something. : ) Could someone direct me to the page number where he says it? Thanks! TimidGuy 12:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)