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:::With respect, you have not been here long enough to see the civilised debate that went on before you. Nobody has "just harrassed everyone endlessly". The statement that "nobody uses them for anything" is demonstrably untrue. You may have a particular chip on your shoulder but making outrageous statements like that does your argument no favours whatsoever. [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
:::With respect, you have not been here long enough to see the civilised debate that went on before you. Nobody has "just harrassed everyone endlessly". The statement that "nobody uses them for anything" is demonstrably untrue. You may have a particular chip on your shoulder but making outrageous statements like that does your argument no favours whatsoever. [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::::I've been in the real world not the politics strewn microenvironment that is wikipedia. You Seem to forget thet WikiPedia keeps a log of all arguments.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 20:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
::::I've been in the real world not the politics strewn microenvironment that is wikipedia. You Seem to forget thet WikiPedia keeps a log of all arguments.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 20:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
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<s>'''Morwen'''</s> Owain: IanDavies says that the quote from a single person at one cricket club is insufficient to establish that the traditional counties are used by cricket clubs. I would like to add that the deductions you offered concerning cricket clubs constitute [[WP:OR|Original Research]] and a Wikipedia article may be the wrong place for that argumentation. --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 18:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
<s>'''Morwen'''</s> Owain: IanDavies says that the quote from a single person at one cricket club is insufficient to establish that the traditional counties are used by cricket clubs. I would like to add that the deductions you offered concerning cricket clubs constitute [[WP:OR|Original Research]] and a Wikipedia article may be the wrong place for that argumentation. --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 18:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:That is not the point. The claim was County criket is organised on traditional county boundaries. It is not, it does not have any boundaries or restrictionas on where players come from. It's just archaic name, nothing else.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
:That is not the point. The claim was County criket is organised on traditional county boundaries. It is not, it does not have any boundaries or restrictionas on where players come from. It's just archaic name, nothing else.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::Answer the question! Evidence provided above... [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 10:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC) |
::::::Answer the question! Evidence provided above... [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 10:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::::You haven't produced any evidence anywhere. Show me one single shred wich links Traditional COunties with COunty Cricket in any practicle way. There are non so you are wrong. Your edits stay out as the are a corrupt .--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 12:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC) |
:::::::You haven't produced any evidence anywhere. Show me one single shred wich links Traditional COunties with COunty Cricket in any practicle way. There are non so you are wrong. Your edits stay out as the are a corrupt .--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 12:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC) |
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⚫ | '''Owain''': Cricket clubs that were named after traditional counties, when these were in administrative use, and retain that name today do not represent an endorsement for the use of traditional counties by the cricket clubs. Your claim that this is the case is supported by a single quote and your own argumentation (which I consider [[WP:OR|Original Research]]). Did I miss anything relevant from your argumentation? --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 19:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
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⚫ | '''Owain''': Cricket clubs that were named after traditional counties, when these were in administrative use, and retain that name today do not represent an endorsement for the use of traditional counties by the cricket clubs. Your claim that this is the case is supported by a single quote and your own argumentation (which I consider [[WP:OR|Original Research]]). Did I miss anything relevant from your argumentation? --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 19:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
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: '''Owain''': Would you please answer the question? Do you acknowledge that your argumentation constitutes original research? --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 14:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC) |
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'''IanDavies''': Owain asked you to please answer his question: "Do you think Blackburn and Blackpool are in Lancashire or not?". It would be polite if you would answer the question, even if you consider it irrelevant. Of course you can explain why it is irrelevant, but please do so without aggressive language. Criticism is not constructive when the criticised party does not accept your criticism as well considered and justified. --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 18:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
'''IanDavies''': Owain asked you to please answer his question: "Do you think Blackburn and Blackpool are in Lancashire or not?". It would be polite if you would answer the question, even if you consider it irrelevant. Of course you can explain why it is irrelevant, but please do so without aggressive language. Criticism is not constructive when the criticised party does not accept your criticism as well considered and justified. --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 18:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::::Could you please repeat your answer here? I can't find it. --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 20:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
::::Could you please repeat your answer here? I can't find it. --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 20:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::It(Blackburn and Blackpool question) is not pertinent to this discussion as this discussion reveloves around the lack of evidence for the claim that county cricket is organised on traditonal county lines, that is the defintion of the area has an effect.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 21:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::The Blackburn and Blackpool question IS pertinent to this discussion as you seem to be of the opinion that there is only ONE area called Lancashire which has changed area over time. Further up the page, you wrote ''"The area covered changed over time. There is Lancashire as it is now and Lancashire as it has been in the past."''. I would like to know how you can justify that position given then changes in local government in Blackburn and Blackpool. [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 14:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC) |
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::::I was asking you that you, as a matter of politeness, provide an answer to the question Owain considers important. If you read my [[#fasten-note-to-owain-31-jan-2006|note]] addressed at Owain above you will find that I have expressed doubt myself whether this is relevant or not. Interestingly you responded to my earlier, similar [[#fasten-note-to-owain-29-jan-2006|note]] with the statement "That is not the point." only to then repeat your claim that cricket clubs do not have traditonal counties as their boundaries, which was what I thought my statement might have, if not confirmed, at least supported as a working hypothesis that needs refutation. Why do you dismiss an argument that supports your point without logically disproving it? --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 14:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC) |
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=== Reverts of this style aren't helpful === |
=== Reverts of this style aren't helpful === |
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:::I don't need to provide evidence for deletes. You need to provide evidence for inclusion. Your attempting to corrupt the Wikipedia and the princples of rational evidence based argument. What your attempting to do is make anyone that disagrees with your prove a negative, which is impossible. The entire basis of Wikipedia is positive proof, not disproof. The advice was from one editor. I beleive I am still waiting for your to give examples of my mas reverts. (Apparently a reply by '''IanDavies''', --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 19:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)) Sorry forgot to sign.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 20:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
:::I don't need to provide evidence for deletes. You need to provide evidence for inclusion. Your attempting to corrupt the Wikipedia and the princples of rational evidence based argument. What your attempting to do is make anyone that disagrees with your prove a negative, which is impossible. The entire basis of Wikipedia is positive proof, not disproof. The advice was from one editor. I beleive I am still waiting for your to give examples of my mas reverts. (Apparently a reply by '''IanDavies''', --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 19:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)) Sorry forgot to sign.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 20:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC) |
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'''IanDavies''': Could you please state your reasons for the mentioned edit ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Southport&diff=35813855&oldid=35811595])? It seems to me that you did not delete information because there was any factual inaccuracy or lack of evidence? --[[User:Fasten|Fasten]] 19:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC) |
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:A. The introduction should identify the location by removing Merseyide. It historial status should be tackled somewhereelse. B. The intro is still to long and would have been longer. C. Demoting Sefton from the location.--[[User:IanDavies|IanDavies]] 21:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC) |
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The Southport issue should be discussed at [[Talk:Southport]]. The issue here is whether the cricket clubs still use traditional counties. A compromise might be "For example, the county cricket clubs are still associated with traditional counties", leaving the issue of whether they use the boundaries in practice, out of it. [[User:JPD|JPD]] ([[User talk:JPD|talk]]) 13:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:42, 10 February 2006
Template:Featured article is only for Wikipedia:Featured articles. Template:Mainpage date Archive1
Wording - mere
Under the subhead, "The traditional counties movement" in the article, one of the bullet points is "to get Ordnance Survey and other map suppliers to mere and mark the traditional county boundaries". What is "to mere and mark"? If it's a typo, then fine, let's correct it; but if it's a proper usage, can we have an explanation please? The point to this latter being that I haven't heard of it and I very much hope I am not the only one, so it might, without a word of explanation, be too obscure for the encylopaedia. Thanks, --Nevilley 15:50, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- As I understand it, 'mere' means determine where the boundaries actually lie on the ground, on massive maps. The OS has a duty to mere the administrative boundaries. This is important because sometimes traditional boundaries will follow ancient hedges that have since been destroyed; or rivers that have been diverted or culverted. Morwen - Talk 15:54, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Golly. You learn something every day! Thanks. I have failed to find this definition anywhere - yet! Would you feel like adding a note explaining this usage? Also, if it's an OS duty, does it need to say "and other map suppliers" or do they do it too? Thanks, --Nevilley 16:09, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Well, dictionary.com has 'mere' as meaning a boundary (in the noun). I have to admit I am guessing quite a bit. There is a section of the Local Government Act 1972 which requires the OS to 'mere' the boundaries - and from context that is what it appears it means. The statutory requirement is only on OS. Morwen - Talk 20:42, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Blank map
For if this gets on the main page, I uploaded a suitable map, without the numbers. Morwen - Talk 12:24, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Past tense
The 'Traditional subdivisions' section contains a number of sentences with past tense references. "Some of the traditional counties had major subdivisions". "Of these, the most important were...". "Since Yorkshire was so big". "The second largest county, Lincolnshire, was also divided into three historic "Parts"". "Other divisions included...". The rest of the section deals with administrative areas that actually are historic, but the sentences above seem out-of-place in the past tense considering correct the use of the present tense elsewhere in the article. Owain 15:18, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Origin of Exclaves?
I think it would be interesting to add some detail about the origin of exclaves to the Authenticity and anomalies section (just their general origin, unless specific detail is interesting). I don't know if this information is known, but it was my first thought on reading - why are these areas contained wholly by one county part of a different county entirely? --HappyDog 00:39, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Vague statement
"Although it is quite possible that the ABC considers debate on this matter a minor priority compared to its more general campaign, so this comment should not necessarily be interpreted as the product of internal dispute."
I've removed this, again, as it has no fact in it at all ("it is quite possible"). As it is, it is POV and presumably could imply it is quite possible it is ripping the ABC group apart. That is not the case, so I've changed "dispute" to "disagreement" in the previous paragraph. I suggest more changes to that rather than reinserting this paragraph yet again. 143.167.77.5 19:47, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Although they no longer exist in any practical form.
How can this sentence remain in the article when it contratdicts other statements such as "The traditional counties have not formally been abolished"? Furthermore they exist in many partical forms such as Watsonian vice counties, &c. It is a POV statement and should be removed. Owain 20:51, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- What practical form do they "exist" as exactly. G-Man 21:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I think that the problem is that the sentence says nothing that it isn't covered adequately in the detail that follows. Indeed, Owain answered your question before you answered it; you don't acknowledge the answer — is that because you didn't notice it, or becasue you don't agree with it? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:18, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No it doesn't answer anything, lets put it simply:
- The traditional counties are not used for any local government purposes.
- The traditional counties are not used for any statistical or governmental purposes whatsoever.
- The traditional counties are not used for any ceremonial purposes.
- The traditional counties are not shown on any modern maps
- The traditional counties are not generally used for geographic purposes.
So I ask again in what practical form exactly do they "exist". Until I get a satisfactory answer I will restore the sentence. G-Man 23:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- But in all this you simply ignore Owain's point, and mine; why? Also, doesn't the need for 'generally' in your final point indicate a problem for you? Finally, your addition is in any case ungrammatical, not being a proper sentence — it's just a clause, needing either a preceding or a succeeding main clause. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:22, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What point exactly? G-Man 23:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Owain's point that “they exist in many partical forms such as Watsonian vice counties, &c.”; my point that there's nothing in your addition that isn't adequately covered in the rest of that section. Could anyone reading the article honestly gain the impression that the historic counties have administrative, ceremonial, or cartographical rôles?
- Incidentally, if you revert, please don't do so to the whole page just for your little addition; the last time you also reverted other edits of mine, which you were probably not even aware of. Use the page history, or edit by section. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:32, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Request for references
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 20:00, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Parliamentary Soverignty?
The offhand remark Furthermore, it is questionable whether Parliament could abolish many of them, given that many were not created by Parliamentary bill or Royal edicts, and, as such, could be argued to have an "untouchable" Common Law existence. should be removed or at least have the reference to Common Law removed. Parliament can do pretty much whatever it likes from a legislative point of view. The 19th and 20th centuries were full of examples of Parliament superceding Common Law with Statute - the Theft Act, numerous Land Law reforms, Offences Against the Person etc. It is certainly true that Parliament could not change history and stop people believing that they are in Berkshire when they are actually in Oxfordshire, but Common Law has nothing to do with that. Offhand, ill-considered comments like this devalue many otherwise excellent Wikipedia articles. --24.85.244.155 07:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
County cricket
User:IanDavies removed the sentence "County cricket continues to use historical counties" with the note "as only YOrskshire makes any comment". I restored the sentence noting that "Warwickshire, Lancashire and Yorkshire are all good examples here", but IanDavies subsequently removed it again with the note "Sating names isn't evidence. Please provide refernces".
My point is that the county cricket teams clearly continue to use the traditional counties. Warwickshire CCC's ground is in Edgbaston, Birmingham (Warwickshire); Lancashire CCC's ground is in Old Trafford, Manchester (Lancashire); Yorkshire CCC's ground is in Headingly, Leeds (Yorkshire) &c. There are plenty of other examples too — Glamorgan, Sussex, Middlesex, Gloucestershire (based in Bristol). I am intending to revert the removal of this information. Owain (talk) 15:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- You mean because they have kept the same club name. They are conciously opting to stick with the old county? I think not.--IanDavies 15:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- What DO you think then? Are the teams using the names and boundaries of traditional counties or not? Yes. Did they follow administrative changes? No. Was there any good reason to follow them? No. Is it a good job they didn't? Clearly! Owain (talk) 15:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- What changes would they have to have done to have followed the changes? Answer non. It is only Yorkshire that only picks only Yorkshire men. Georgraphy has nothing to do with Cricket clubs. Is it Perhaps that there isn't a West Midlands cricket club or that Lancshire didn't change it's name to Greater Manchester that you think shows the keeping of traditional counties? You seem to be very much in support of trditional counties.--IanDavies 15:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- I am not talking about team selection, I am talking about the territorial coverage of the clubs. Your argument about what didn't happen and why is pure supposition. I have pointed out the fact that the names and boundaries of the clubs' territories has not changed. Regardless of why that is — it is fact! Of course I am very much in support of traditional counties. I believe that knowing where we are from is important. Consistency is important. History is important. Local government can and should be separate from geographical identity. Owain (talk) 15:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- Were is the territorial coverage of the clubs the trditional counties do not exists. The used to but not any more. Now please stop you POV edits.--IanDavies 15:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sigh... Have you not noticed where I have pointed out where the country cricket grounds are? Have you also not noticed that the examples I gave are in the traditional county but not in the local government area of the same name? Of course traditional counties still exist. Local government legislation can redefine what ever local government areas it likes — the two are completely separate concepts. It was your PoV edit that removed the cricket reference in the first place. I was merely restoring it, after having had this debate for three years already. Owain (talk) 16:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- So you are suggesting that Because Warwickshire CC is based in the West Midlands but calls it's self Warwickwhire CC it is sticking with the old county. Perhaps because Lancashire Electric Light is based in Liverpool, does that mean the traditional counties apply in the electrical retail trade. The traditional counties do not exist, they have no more status than the territory that Bodica had as a country. Do you think that Arsenal being called Arsenall still means Woolwich Arsenal is in full production. You clutching at straws. We do the rules of COunty Cricket explicitly state that by 'county' they mean pre 1974 and what restrictions does it place upon them?--IanDavies 16:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- Were is the territorial coverage of the clubs the trditional counties do not exists. The used to but not any more. Now please stop you POV edits.--IanDavies 15:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- I am not talking about team selection, I am talking about the territorial coverage of the clubs. Your argument about what didn't happen and why is pure supposition. I have pointed out the fact that the names and boundaries of the clubs' territories has not changed. Regardless of why that is — it is fact! Of course I am very much in support of traditional counties. I believe that knowing where we are from is important. Consistency is important. History is important. Local government can and should be separate from geographical identity. Owain (talk) 15:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- What changes would they have to have done to have followed the changes? Answer non. It is only Yorkshire that only picks only Yorkshire men. Georgraphy has nothing to do with Cricket clubs. Is it Perhaps that there isn't a West Midlands cricket club or that Lancshire didn't change it's name to Greater Manchester that you think shows the keeping of traditional counties? You seem to be very much in support of trditional counties.--IanDavies 15:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- What DO you think then? Are the teams using the names and boundaries of traditional counties or not? Yes. Did they follow administrative changes? No. Was there any good reason to follow them? No. Is it a good job they didn't? Clearly! Owain (talk) 15:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This is utterly absurd. If there isn't a county cricket team for any of the new administrative counties, and people in "traditional Warwickshire" but "administrative West Midlands" play for Warwickshire rather than a hypothetical "West Midlands County Cricket Club", then clearly they use the traditional counties. That's self-evident, and suggesting otherwise is crazy. Proteus (Talk) 16:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- It your response that is absurd. Using the name is meaningless.--IanDavies 16:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- "Using the name is meaningless". I'm sorry, but that argument is meaningless. People using the name of a well-defined geographical area with hundreds of years of history is absurd, whereas they should be using the flavour-of-the-month administrative area which was designed for a completely different purposes... ohh kaaayy... If you keep reverting this article with no justification you are going to get banned. Owain (talk) 19:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- The area covered changed over time. You just want to claim a particlar configuration has some mystic significance. It is you that will be banned for attempting to corrupt Wikipedia by placing false information. The only thing that has continued are the names. There is Lancashire as it is now and Lancashire as it has been in the past. The term Traditional county is meaningless as counties are not a matter of tradition but of administration. If counties are reorganised again, will you regard the current bounderies as traditional? What will you use to describe those you currently define as traditional?--IanDavies 20:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- You still seem to be of the opinion that there is only one area that could be called Lancashire. As I have pointed out on your user talk page, there are at least three, and in the case of Lancashire, possibly a fourth. I am not suggesting that the areas of these do not change over time, but they are different areas. The administrative area has changed as recently as 1998 with the creation of unitary authorities. The ceremonial area was defined by the Lieutenancies Act 1997. Both of these are independent of the area of the traditional, ancient or geographic Lancashire. If either of the administrative or ceremonial Lancashires is reorganised again it will make no difference to the traditional Lanacshire. If you are so firm in your belief that there is a single entity called Lancashire, what do you make of this: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19961868_en_2.htm "6.—(1) Blackburn and Blackpool shall cease to form part of Lancashire. (2) A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Blackburn and shall be named the county of Blackburn. (3) A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Blackpool and shall be named the county of Blackpool.". You have to understand that these pieces of legislation use the term "county" in a way that is specific to that legislation. Local government acts amend local government areas that "are known as counties" in that specific legislation. The Lieutenances Act states that its areas are "Counties and areas for the purposes of the lieutenancies in Great Britain" — i.e. using the terms in a specific way in that piece of legislation. Neither of these things redfines the ordinary meaning of county in the English language, or changes the names and areas of traditional counties. This is not "corrupting Wikipedia by placing false information", this is well established by Government statements which are freely available. Owain (talk) 15:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- You haven't show what the traditional or anchcient counties areas are, you have just demonstrated that the counties change left right and centre. Now show me were it says that the county clubs use them, and what they use them for. You seem to like shooting yourself in the foot. The counties pre 1974 are not used accept for the names which have been used and reused throught history.--IanDavies 14:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I do not need to show you what they are - this article already does that! What I have shown you is that there are different things with different borders that could reasonably be called counties. Did you read the 'The Lancashire (Boroughs of Blackburn and Blackpool) (Structural Change) Order 1996'? What do you make of it? It says quite clearly that Blackburn and Blackpool shall cease to form part of Lancashire and that 'A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Blackburn and shall be named the county of Blackburn' and 'A new county shall be constituted comprising the area of Blackpool and shall be named the county of Blackpool'. Simple question - Do you think Blackburn and Blackpool are in Lancashire or not? Owain (talk) 14:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- The area covered changed over time. You just want to claim a particlar configuration has some mystic significance. It is you that will be banned for attempting to corrupt Wikipedia by placing false information. The only thing that has continued are the names. There is Lancashire as it is now and Lancashire as it has been in the past. The term Traditional county is meaningless as counties are not a matter of tradition but of administration. If counties are reorganised again, will you regard the current bounderies as traditional? What will you use to describe those you currently define as traditional?--IanDavies 20:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- "Using the name is meaningless". I'm sorry, but that argument is meaningless. People using the name of a well-defined geographical area with hundreds of years of history is absurd, whereas they should be using the flavour-of-the-month administrative area which was designed for a completely different purposes... ohh kaaayy... If you keep reverting this article with no justification you are going to get banned. Owain (talk) 19:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- It is the area that the club feels it represents, and the area containing the people that feel the club represents them that is important, and this is described by the old geographical county. It is a matter of "ancient loyalties" according to the following
- From Parliamentary Hansard:
- However, as my colleagues have pointed out in the past, local government boundaries are concerned essentially with administration, and changes, whether arising from the 1974 reorganisation or as part of the current review, need not affect ancient loyalties and affinities.
- I need hardly name some of these. Lancashire county cricket club was mentioned, and continues to have Old Trafford as its main ground and headquarters, and has managed to do quite well on it in the last season, despite being within Greater Manchester. Participants in the rugby league Lancashire cup are drawn from across the traditional county, and, as far as I am aware, the performance of the individual teams is unaffected by the fact that they come from the administrative areas of Halton, Wigan and so on. In fact, I recall a very well known Lancastrian--Tuigamala--who, I believe, plays for Wigan.
- The Queen's Lancastrian regiment continues to maintain its traditional affiliations with areas such as Warrington, Bury and Oldham, despite their incorporation into Cheshire and Greater Manchester.
- ...etc, at http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199596/cmhansrd/vo951204/debtext/51204-31.htm
- From Parliamentary Hansard:
- [Note the use of the phrase traditional county, the sentence about 1974 reorganisation being about administration...]. This "mass hallucination" of the concept of traditional county is surprisingly common, it would seem(!)
- That's a statment by an MP, I want the law as it is written down not just some bloke at some time.--IanDavies 15:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
The statement as given is evidenced; with just a little research, one finds the core of the last Lancashire squad was made up of Keiron Cunningham, [born St Helens], Andy Farrell, [born Wigan], Paul Deacon [born Wigan], Martin Gleeson [born Wigan], Gary Connolly [born St Helens], Danny Sculthorpe [born Oldham]. All born after 1974 in the metropolitan counties of Greater Manchester and Merseyside, and all played their first professional rugby for clubs outside the current administrative county of Lancashire [primarily their hometowns, but one for Warrington. In Cheshire]. Birthplace and first club are the two criteria for inclusion. If they aren't looking at the traditional county boundary, how else do you explain these plyer's inclusion? Occam's Razor leads to the conclusion most people would draw.
Of course I cannot refer you to legal legislation on this fact, however, because none has ever existed. Lawmakers have somewhat deeper matters to consider than whether Iestyn Harris is eligible for Lancashire.
- Quote - counties are not a matter of tradition but of administration
The construct of "county" exists outside legal frameworks for non-administrative purposes. The word has meaning outside administration. It exists in both spheres with slightly different meanings. Rugby is not an administrative matter, yet we have county matches. Your entire viewpoint appears to relolve on this one statement, and I suspect this may indeed be a minority viewpoint.
Because of this I have questioned the POV nature of the article publically (if you considered my edit POV, I can consider its omission POV) and I will call for mediation. Considerable discussion has already taken place in order to find consensus and it is not forthcoming, so it's the only constructive option at this point. Aquilina 20:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- What do they mean by "County match" or is it just an archaic term, kept for PR reasons. Do they have a statment which say "we use the county bounries as of xxxx", what restrictions are placed on the teams as far as selection goes, by the county restriction. Do they strick rigidly to that geography, with regard to exclaves/enclaves.--IanDavies 20:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Mediation
This is an informal attempt at mediation in the dispute 2006-01-22_Status_of_traditional_counties. --Fasten 14:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- The claim is that traditinal counties are still in use. The clearly are not. No organsiation uses the old peremiters. Some private companies like Ciricket Clubs still use the names they alsways have, and some seek to extend there Market area as far as possible by claiming every last bit of territory that may have been in Yorkshire. In the UK there are several groups that capaign for the reinstatment of what they call the traditional counties. They are mostly rather sad middle aged men who want the world back the way it was in thier childhood. Recently a couple of Essex boys drove around around Lancachire re arranging the county boundary signs, to what the wanted them to be. I think they have been charged with criminal damage.--IanDavies 14:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- You simply cannot make a statement like "They clearly are not". There are plenty of organisations that use traditional boundaries, in fact by mentioning Cricket Clubs you have already defeated your own argument! An argument, by the way, that isn't helped by categorising traditional county advocates as "sad middle aged men who want the world back the way it was in thier childhood". I am 31. I was born in July 1974, after the administrative changes of that year. Clearly I do not want things back the way they were in my childhood, I just want an acceptance that a general purpose geography and an administrative geography are two separate things. Owain (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I haven't defeated my argument at all. County cricket has no restraints on were players or members come from. They simply use the names that is all. You might aswell claim that Mercia is still around as some organisationas use it in there name. You haven't said what any of your users actually use these counties for. What is General Pupose geography people in the Met counties as a matter of course use the met counties to describe their location, that would seem to be the most general purpose, the BBC refer to various city as being in the Met counties.--IanDavies 15:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I could list dozens of organisations that use traditional counties as their borders, but what would be the point. You don't seem to think they exist, so what would it prove to you? General purpose geography is just what it says on the tin - identifying where places are. Whoever collects the tax or empties the bins is a complete irrelevance. I wouldn't say that ALL people in the "met counties" necesarily identify with them - just ask people in the Wirral or Wigan for example. But that point re-affirms my argument, general purpose geography in this country has become a mess of traditional, administrative and defunct administrative areas so that nobody quite knows where they are any more. This is the whole point in having a stable geography based on units that are hundreds of years old and well-understood. This has been acknowledged on Wikipedia for some time now. Owain (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Then list them and show your evidence. So now your saying there are a whole host of traditinal count boundaries, which one was it you want to keep. Does Yorkshire strech to the Irish sea? You simply mistake the use of a Brand name and assume it represents something.--IanDavies 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- For goodness sake man, you could do this research yourself, it's not difficult. I am NOT saying that there are a whole host of traditional county boundaries, what I am saying is that there are a whole host of different sets of boundaries that could reasonably be called counties. People, such as yourself, have become confused and mixed them up. I have been trying to get this point over the whole time. The definitive traditional county boundaries are the OS First Edition 1:2500 and 1:10560 maps in the series from 1841. I am not picking and choosing which boundaries to use, I am using the most recent set of boundaries that haven't changed! Just for the record, here is a small list of organistations that are based on my home traditional county of Monmouthshire Owain (talk) 10:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC):
- Monmouthshire Referees
- Monmouthshire Railway Society
- Monmouthshire Masons
- Monmouthshire Antiquarian Association
- Monmouthshire Show
- For goodness sake man, you could do this research yourself, it's not difficult. I am NOT saying that there are a whole host of traditional county boundaries, what I am saying is that there are a whole host of different sets of boundaries that could reasonably be called counties. People, such as yourself, have become confused and mixed them up. I have been trying to get this point over the whole time. The definitive traditional county boundaries are the OS First Edition 1:2500 and 1:10560 maps in the series from 1841. I am not picking and choosing which boundaries to use, I am using the most recent set of boundaries that haven't changed! Just for the record, here is a small list of organistations that are based on my home traditional county of Monmouthshire Owain (talk) 10:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC):
- Then list them and show your evidence. So now your saying there are a whole host of traditinal count boundaries, which one was it you want to keep. Does Yorkshire strech to the Irish sea? You simply mistake the use of a Brand name and assume it represents something.--IanDavies 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I could list dozens of organisations that use traditional counties as their borders, but what would be the point. You don't seem to think they exist, so what would it prove to you? General purpose geography is just what it says on the tin - identifying where places are. Whoever collects the tax or empties the bins is a complete irrelevance. I wouldn't say that ALL people in the "met counties" necesarily identify with them - just ask people in the Wirral or Wigan for example. But that point re-affirms my argument, general purpose geography in this country has become a mess of traditional, administrative and defunct administrative areas so that nobody quite knows where they are any more. This is the whole point in having a stable geography based on units that are hundreds of years old and well-understood. This has been acknowledged on Wikipedia for some time now. Owain (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I haven't defeated my argument at all. County cricket has no restraints on were players or members come from. They simply use the names that is all. You might aswell claim that Mercia is still around as some organisationas use it in there name. You haven't said what any of your users actually use these counties for. What is General Pupose geography people in the Met counties as a matter of course use the met counties to describe their location, that would seem to be the most general purpose, the BBC refer to various city as being in the Met counties.--IanDavies 15:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- You simply cannot make a statement like "They clearly are not". There are plenty of organisations that use traditional boundaries, in fact by mentioning Cricket Clubs you have already defeated your own argument! An argument, by the way, that isn't helped by categorising traditional county advocates as "sad middle aged men who want the world back the way it was in thier childhood". I am 31. I was born in July 1974, after the administrative changes of that year. Clearly I do not want things back the way they were in my childhood, I just want an acceptance that a general purpose geography and an administrative geography are two separate things. Owain (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Now all you need to do is show thay are using more than the name. Which you haven't done. Yet again depite many times of asking. The problem is your hell bent on forcing your POV through. One look at you Page convinced me that this is the bee in you bonnet.--IanDavies 12:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Eh? These organisations have always been called by their respective names, even when in the period between 1974-1996 there was no administrative area called Monmouthshire, and even now despite the area being different to the new unitary authority of the same name. I'm not sure what else you need as proof. You still haven't answered my Lancashire/Blackburn/Blackpool question! Owain (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- You have shown they used the names, but a county is an area of land show that they use that, show that the gerography effects the club or its supporters and it entry into competion. Simple using the name does not constitute using the county, it constitutes using the name. You haven't asked any questions that I could find, just provided a large amounts of waffle.--IanDavies 15:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Eh? These organisations have always been called by their respective names, even when in the period between 1974-1996 there was no administrative area called Monmouthshire, and even now despite the area being different to the new unitary authority of the same name. I'm not sure what else you need as proof. You still haven't answered my Lancashire/Blackburn/Blackpool question! Owain (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Now all you need to do is show thay are using more than the name. Which you haven't done. Yet again depite many times of asking. The problem is your hell bent on forcing your POV through. One look at you Page convinced me that this is the bee in you bonnet.--IanDavies 12:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this dispute can be solved with careful wording. Wikipedia has no policy not to mention things that ceased to exist (which would be silly, wouldn't it?) and the existance of a named geographic location, which doesn't have to end with the end of official use (e.g. Subdivisions of Ethiopia), is difficult to establish anyway. We could discuss if the names of traditional counties are still in everyday use, which might establish their existance against the official government non-use but maybe we can find a wording that is satisfactory to both sides without trying to decide (which could be OR) if the traditional counties do exist. I would say analyzing possible motivations of Cricket Clubs without further evidence could be seen as OR. --Fasten 15:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Here are the issues as I see it:
- The general consensus on this issue is that the newer counties are used for administrative and general use, and that the traditional counties are also used in general conversation and some specialised areas such as sports. This consensus was established last year after a long debate, including much input from Owain and Morwen.
This was enshrined in WP [[Naming conventions (places)], which encourages the use of constructions such as
- Coventry is in the West Midlands, and within the traditional borders of Warwickshire
- Most of the pigeons were found at Abingdon, then part of Berkshire
- Middlesex is a traditional county of England, now mostly covered by Greater London*
- Southwark is a village in the London Borough of Southwark in Greater London. It is in the traditional borders of Surrey
- Most of the edits reverted by IanDavies fell within these guidelines.
- Morwen (who seems the primary WP authority on this issue) has already asked IanDavies to desist on this issue on his talk page. [1]
- On county cricket in particular, afaik there is no official statement, because one is not required. Cricket teams are not decided by administrative areas. However, it is generally felt that the de facto situation is that the traditional counties are used, because no change was made when the counties changed. IanDavies' seems to be a somewhat minority POV, in the light of comments from myself, Owain, Proteus and Morwen.
- The main problem is with the style of edits: IanDavies has reverted wholesale when he has disagreed with one small part of an edit. Instead changing just one or two words (eg from 'is' to 'was' in most relevant cases) would be both more constructive and better wikiquette. This has caused the problem to escalate more than it ought.
- IanDavies has asked for extensive production of evidence. However, as we are dealing with the informal labelling of counties by definition no legislature is forthcoming (especially for sporting matters). Most tellingly however, is IanDavies complementary failure to provide any evidence to back up his deletions. An evidence free deletion should not necessarily hold sway over an edit with (albeit) circumstantial evidence (viz inclusion of rugby).
- Believing that traditional counties still exist is regarded on WP as a minority POV. However, there is also a majority POV that a debate really does exist here. IanDavies is holding a minority POV in saying that traditional counties do not exist in any sense because they no longer exist in an administrative sense.
- The word 'traditional' is being used for the explicit reason of showing that the county is not being used for modern administrative purposes. In saying that 'X is in a traditional county' there is a direct implication that 'X is now in a different administrative county'. Most of the time this implication is made explicit. Most editors seem content to use this convention.
- IanDavies' comments above about traditional county advocates indicate that his edits are being made in somewhat bad faith. I do not care if people's bins in Manchester are collected by Greater Manchester or Lancashire county council; in this sense I am not even one of these advocates. All I am interested in is a consistent application of consensus conventions, and I think this is being prevented at the moment. Aquilina 16:37, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Morwen made no comment on the validity of my argument, her comment read to me. That there are a bunch of nutters on Wikipedia who like to go around insisting that these traditional counties actually exist, and that I should not rattle wake them up because they'll just cause trouble, as you are doing now.
- Where is my wholesale revert?
- If you cannot define there area then the statement X is in a traditional county. Becomes meaningless.
- I don't need evidence to beck up a delete. The onus is on the person posting the stament to provide references.--IanDavies 16:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- The areas CAN be and ARE clearly defined! The gazetteer at http://www.abcounties.co.uk/newgaz/ is just one example. We have an agreed policy here that both 'sides' are happy with, so I'm not quite sure why this argument has to be re-opened again by a newcomer to the party. Owain (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- That
- The areas CAN be and ARE clearly defined! The gazetteer at http://www.abcounties.co.uk/newgaz/ is just one example. We have an agreed policy here that both 'sides' are happy with, so I'm not quite sure why this argument has to be re-opened again by a newcomer to the party. Owain (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
It's a pressure group that want to regress. It's not what most people think of in day today life. It's just wat a group of rectinaries want. It is not usefull as an argument. You just quoting propoganda. Where have the TCCB signed up for this def?--IanDavies 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Nobody wants anybody to regress. The gazetteer shows traditional county information alongside other information such as local authority, lieutenancy, health authority &c. Perfectly useful. Using traditional counties in a geographical sense is not regressing in any way. No-one is advocating any administrative changes that could be detrimental to anyone just that a historic and well-understood geographic framework should be used. Owain (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
IanDavies: There seems indeed to be a consent to refer to pre-1974 counties as traditional counties. I do not know if the consent includes referring to these counties in the past tense only or if the present tense is acceptable. If you are interested in swaying that consent I recommend that you discuss this on Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(places) and/or open a Request for comment on the matter. --Fasten 18:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a consensus the pro traditional counties have just harrased everyone endlessly. Refering to pre 1974 counties as being traditional is nopt the point but that doesn't mean that anyone uses them for anything. That is the crux of the matter. They are not used for anything by anyone. The number of references to the term traditional county is grossly disproportionate.--IanDavies 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- With respect, you have not been here long enough to see the civilised debate that went on before you. Nobody has "just harrassed everyone endlessly". The statement that "nobody uses them for anything" is demonstrably untrue. You may have a particular chip on your shoulder but making outrageous statements like that does your argument no favours whatsoever. Owain (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I've been in the real world not the politics strewn microenvironment that is wikipedia. You Seem to forget thet WikiPedia keeps a log of all arguments.--IanDavies 20:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- With respect, you have not been here long enough to see the civilised debate that went on before you. Nobody has "just harrassed everyone endlessly". The statement that "nobody uses them for anything" is demonstrably untrue. You may have a particular chip on your shoulder but making outrageous statements like that does your argument no favours whatsoever. Owain (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a consensus the pro traditional counties have just harrased everyone endlessly. Refering to pre 1974 counties as being traditional is nopt the point but that doesn't mean that anyone uses them for anything. That is the crux of the matter. They are not used for anything by anyone. The number of references to the term traditional county is grossly disproportionate.--IanDavies 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Morwen Owain: IanDavies says that the quote from a single person at one cricket club is insufficient to establish that the traditional counties are used by cricket clubs. I would like to add that the deductions you offered concerning cricket clubs constitute Original Research and a Wikipedia article may be the wrong place for that argumentation. --Fasten 18:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- That is not the point. The claim was County criket is organised on traditional county boundaries. It is not, it does not have any boundaries or restrictionas on where players come from. It's just archaic name, nothing else.--IanDavies 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- This argument is circular and absurd. It can be clearly seen that the current teams are named after what we call "traditional counties". If the name is archiac to you then so be it, but it is clearly the case. Owain (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Your argument is non existant and your claim of cirularity is just abusrd. What this shows is that you are not interest in the debate or what is said or data provided. You simply interested in stating and restating your opinion and attacking any that disagree with you, not by addressing the substance but by simply engaging in a slagging match.--IanDavies 20:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- This is pointless - my argument has plenty of substance and has been stated and explained with numerous examples of substance if you cared to check the history of the debate. I have no trouble with administrative areas and traditional counties peacefully co-existing, each providing a different function. Wikipedia itself is more than capable of providing both pieces of information simultaneously and has been doing so happily before you came along. You are the one that seems incapable of comprehending the fact that there may be multiple things that can be called counties in different contexts. Why have you not answered my Blackburn and Blackpool question further up this page? Owain (talk) 21:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Your argument is non existant and your claim of cirularity is just abusrd. What this shows is that you are not interest in the debate or what is said or data provided. You simply interested in stating and restating your opinion and attacking any that disagree with you, not by addressing the substance but by simply engaging in a slagging match.--IanDavies 20:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- This argument is circular and absurd. It can be clearly seen that the current teams are named after what we call "traditional counties". If the name is archiac to you then so be it, but it is clearly the case. Owain (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- No evidence provided again, just more rhetoric. By the look of it most people where beaten into submission. --IanDavies 21:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Answer the question! Evidence provided above... Owain (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- You haven't produced any evidence anywhere. Show me one single shred wich links Traditional COunties with COunty Cricket in any practicle way. There are non so you are wrong. Your edits stay out as the are a corrupt .--IanDavies 12:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- Answer the question! Evidence provided above... Owain (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- No evidence provided again, just more rhetoric. By the look of it most people where beaten into submission. --IanDavies 21:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Owain: Cricket clubs that were named after traditional counties, when these were in administrative use, and retain that name today do not represent an endorsement for the use of traditional counties by the cricket clubs. Your claim that this is the case is supported by a single quote and your own argumentation (which I consider Original Research). Did I miss anything relevant from your argumentation? --Fasten 19:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
IanDavies: Owain asked you to please answer his question: "Do you think Blackburn and Blackpool are in Lancashire or not?". It would be polite if you would answer the question, even if you consider it irrelevant. Of course you can explain why it is irrelevant, but please do so without aggressive language. Criticism is not constructive when the criticised party does not accept your criticism as well considered and justified. --Fasten 18:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- Fasten when has he answered a single question of mine? Whn have you tried to force him to do so? If you wish to be a mediator perhaps you should mediate. I, if you remeber am still waiting for an example of County Cricket being organised on Traditional COunty lines rather than being an anachronism. It(Blackburn and Blackpool question) is not pertinent to this discussion as this discussion reveloves around the lack of evidence for the claim that county cricket is organised on traditonal county lines, that is the defintion of the area has an effect. Now perhaps you would like to get Owain to produce even the slightest bit of evidence. You do seem to be missing the point rather a lot.--IanDavies 19:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- This is a misunderstanding IanDavies, I'm not in a position to force anybody to do anything. If you have any criticism of the mediation please be more concise. "If you wish to be a mediator perhaps you should mediate." is entirely destructive criticism. According to the Categorical Imperative you should aim for behaviour you wish to see yourself and not ask others to start showing that behaviour as a precondition. As a consequence I would kindly ask you to answer his question and I will try to motivate Owain to reply to your questions in a consise and polite manner. --Fasten 19:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I had answered his question. I have highlighted the answer.--IanDavies 20:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- This is a misunderstanding IanDavies, I'm not in a position to force anybody to do anything. If you have any criticism of the mediation please be more concise. "If you wish to be a mediator perhaps you should mediate." is entirely destructive criticism. According to the Categorical Imperative you should aim for behaviour you wish to see yourself and not ask others to start showing that behaviour as a precondition. As a consequence I would kindly ask you to answer his question and I will try to motivate Owain to reply to your questions in a consise and polite manner. --Fasten 19:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- Could you please repeat your answer here? I can't find it. --Fasten 20:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- It(Blackburn and Blackpool question) is not pertinent to this discussion as this discussion reveloves around the lack of evidence for the claim that county cricket is organised on traditonal county lines, that is the defintion of the area has an effect.--IanDavies 21:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- The Blackburn and Blackpool question IS pertinent to this discussion as you seem to be of the opinion that there is only ONE area called Lancashire which has changed area over time. Further up the page, you wrote "The area covered changed over time. There is Lancashire as it is now and Lancashire as it has been in the past.". I would like to know how you can justify that position given then changes in local government in Blackburn and Blackpool. Owain (talk) 14:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
- It(Blackburn and Blackpool question) is not pertinent to this discussion as this discussion reveloves around the lack of evidence for the claim that county cricket is organised on traditonal county lines, that is the defintion of the area has an effect.--IanDavies 21:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- Could you please repeat your answer here? I can't find it. --Fasten 20:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Reverts of this style aren't helpful
- Reverts of the style [2] aren't helpful. Even you wouldn't disagree with the fact that Southport and Bootle together make Sefton, or that public services are provided from Sefton council. You agreed to the inclusion of these statements later. Why did you make me pointlessly type it out three times?
- I seem to recall that Morwen suggested at the time the naming convention was decided that the 1847 borders for traditional counties are to be used (changes did occur after this, but like most changes in traditional county borders they were relatively minor).
- I strongly suggest that you read [3] (ie the discussions leading up to the naming conventions as well as the conentions themselves) before you make further edits; this is the very least amount of background knowledge to the debate that you should know beforehand. It's a complex issue that other people (principally Morwen and Owain) have a far deeper knowledge on than either of us, and you should heed their advice.
- Going against their advice, and editing articles where an (albeit unsteady) settled consensus has been found, like your recent one on Huntingdon, is going to lead you into edit war after edit war.
- Labelling people nutters because they have a contrary POV will cause conflict. Labelling people's edits as rubbish will cause conflict [4]. Furthermore, evidence-free deletes are strictly against editing guidelines. A delete is an edit, and edits should be evidenced. There is a burden of evidence on both sides - you should only make a delete if you can disprove the text yourself.
- It's far better to leave well alone on this topic. After repeated advice from several editors, further edits about this might be seen as wilfully obstructive. I'm sure there are many other areas on which you could contribute far more constructively. Let's try and aim for a quieter life Aquilina 19:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't need to provide evidence for deletes. You need to provide evidence for inclusion. Your attempting to corrupt the Wikipedia and the princples of rational evidence based argument. What your attempting to do is make anyone that disagrees with your prove a negative, which is impossible. The entire basis of Wikipedia is positive proof, not disproof. The advice was from one editor. I beleive I am still waiting for your to give examples of my mas reverts. (Apparently a reply by IanDavies, --Fasten 19:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)) Sorry forgot to sign.--IanDavies 20:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)