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*I hate it just so much when we have to descend into [[political correctness]] and use certain language/wording because it's simply 'uncontentious'. Our extensive use of the term 'practitioner' is already an appeasement to FLG because they eschew the concept of membership, despite the fact that many many articles I have read use the term 'member'. But of course, you're right that such a discussion doesn't belong here but in the main article. I can see the argument for simplifying it here, for expediency. [[User:Ohconfucius|<span style="color:Black;font:bold 8pt kristen itc;text-shadow:cyan 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Ohconfucius</span>]] [[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>¡digame!</sup>]] 10:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) |
*I hate it just so much when we have to descend into [[political correctness]] and use certain language/wording because it's simply 'uncontentious'. Our extensive use of the term 'practitioner' is already an appeasement to FLG because they eschew the concept of membership, despite the fact that many many articles I have read use the term 'member'. But of course, you're right that such a discussion doesn't belong here but in the main article. I can see the argument for simplifying it here, for expediency. [[User:Ohconfucius|<span style="color:Black;font:bold 8pt kristen itc;text-shadow:cyan 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Ohconfucius</span>]] [[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>¡digame!</sup>]] 10:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Actually, we shouldn't use "practitioner" as an "appeasement to FLG," but because the term has textual support. I think Falun Gong's self-reference should count for something, but mainly, I suppose it should be RS. My understanding is that often, in any kind of discourse, certain words will become standard to refer to certain people. I thought for Falun Gong that this has come to be the word "practitioner." I just did some quick searches now (for "falun gong practitioner" and "falun gong member") and "member" is far more common on google ordinary search, but "practitioner" far more common on google books and google scholar. Amnesty defers to "practitioner" (192 instances to 6), so do all .gov sites (263 to 136), .gov.au sites 330 to 6, and NYtimes is 91 to 83 for practitioner. It's actually not as clear cut as I thought, but there's a definite trend. However, better sources carry greater weight, like Tong's recent book, which uses "practitioner," (I just did a very non-scientific test, saw three instances and none of "member") and Ownby's 2008 text. I guess those count for relatively more. Anyway, "member" is obviously fine for a bit of variety sometimes and if that source prefers it or (obviously) in quotes. Just my thoughts. I think in the lead though, or in general, maybe "practitioner" is a simple default.--<font style="bold">[[User:Asdfg12345|'''Asdfg''']]</font><font color="black" style="bold">[[User_talk:Asdfg12345|'''12345''']]</font> 13:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC) |
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== "Falun Gong and self-immolation" -- an original synthesis == |
== "Falun Gong and self-immolation" -- an original synthesis == |
Revision as of 13:38, 16 February 2010
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I don't think the new section titles are at all helpful. First of all, the 'Beyond the Limits of Forbearance' title got changed to Falun Gong and self-immolation, now it disappears altogether into a section called 'The dispute'. Let's not forget that Falun Gong disputes the who thing, but to get into a sensible analysis of it, we need to separate the story into two main discrete elements - that is to say the identity of the self-immolators and the video footage. The 'Dispute' section really needs to be changed back into the 'victims', self-immolators, or somesuch to bring the focus back on the individuals involved. Then, I think the role played by 'Beyond the Limits of Forbearance' is not insignificant, and needs to be reinstated as a section in its own right and not a sub-section of 'Dispute'. I know we are going through a thought process here, and I believe it will end up full circle again. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree there needs to be a section on the people involved (not "victims" but people) - and that section should include the two who have been tried for their involvement in the incident but were not there on the day. The section that was named "The self-immolators" was about the dispute rather than the people involved - and (as I indicate above) not all those involved in the incident were self-immolators - so seems appropriate to give it a more specific title. Also, there are two main threads to this incident and article - the self-immolation itself, and the dispute arising from it. As the dispute is a major aspect of the incident, it seems not just appropriate but necessary that we have a section which deals with the dispute. The question is how we deal with it. After I read and then retitled the Dispute section I considered that the Falun Gong and self-immolation section is actually part of the dispute - Falun Gong are disputing that the self-immolation was done by Falun Gong practitioners "because" of what is said in the Falun Gong and self-immolation section.
- My thinking at the moment is that the large chart, a very helpful and clear device to explain who is who, should be placed in a new section, possibly named "People involved", and that section should go into detail about those people already mentioned in the chart and the two others. There is additional information about them that is not currently in the article (such as their preparations for the self-immolation - visiting the site in advance, etc), and it would be helpful to trace them through from "planning" to trial/hospitalisation.
- If the chart is to be called "people involved" perhaps the police close to the incident and those who video taped the original footage should be listed as well. Surely they were instrumental in the entire incident and were "people involved". Actually, I personally would rather see the section renamed with the use of the word "victims", e.g. "victims involved", as someone suggested early on. "People involved" is a sweeping statement.
- In addition, the dispute section should be revisited to see if it can be presented in a clearer manner. Those of you who have been involved in this topic for years know what is going on, and what the arguments are - but as someone new to this I have been struggling to make sense of who says what and why. The dispute section should indicate clearly the claims made by the Chinese government, the counter claims by the Falun Gong, and then outside commentary on these claims - and advising readers of the stance and involvement of outside commentators. For example, Schechter is mentioned by name four times in the article, the first time we are told he is a "journalist", but then we are left to work out for ourselves who he is and why he is being quoted so much. In the dispute section it might be useful to explain who some of these major players actually are - especially if they have been named in the lead.
- The aim is not just to make this a clear, readable, helpful and neutral article, but to bring it up to FA status, and at the moment an outsider who has worked closely on the article for a few days and been doing a considerable amount of background reading still feels a bit lost! The nature of the incident, and the awkwardness of the sources, means this is a trickier article than normal to work on, and I have a lot of admiration for those of you who have worked on this for years - especially Ohconfucius, who seems determined to be as fair, accurate and neutral as possible. SilkTork *YES! 09:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I see where you are headed with this. Yes, I've been involved with this article faaaar too long, and I saw the challenge to get it to FA was not only for the article itself, but with a mind to creating a modus operandum for all the FG articles (which, incidentally, have all been heavily conflict-ridden), but I realised that I am so heavily invested in this that I take many things for granted, which is where you come in, thank you. Trust has also been an issue: FG editors are like what you have read in, for example, Ownby and Kavan. Their defenses are at DEFCON4 if not 5. There have been belligerent FG opponents as well as FG supporters who have always made matters worse, as I have ended up fighting off both sides until I decided one day that I had had enough, but I digress.
Anyway, to underline how the dispute runs right through this article, if we were to just talk about the CCTV footage, it is clear that False Fire deconstruction is a key opposing element. As to the individuals involved, the govt supplies history and background and epilogue for most of them, but FG doesn't really have much solid evidence that they were not practitioners (hardly surprising, the nature of the amorphous and diffuse FG 'beast'), thus they tend to fall back on the video evidence. Then, there are the third party comments/views. I for one have always shuddered at the overuse of Schechter, but it is a source which the FG editors insist upon, and I can see why: he is a journalist with some HR credentials, and, from having read everything I can obtain for free that he has written, he seems to regurgitate the Falun Gong line, whilst always adding his own flourish. For FG, he is highly credible spokesmen for their cause. However, I don't find Schechter particularly insightful (because everything he says appears in some FG publication or website somewhere) his flourishes send the WP:NPOV red light. I can cite, for example how Philip Pan wrote that Liu Chunling was "troubled", but after Schechter got hold of it, she became someone "with mental problems". Ohconfucius (talk) 10:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I see where you are headed with this. Yes, I've been involved with this article faaaar too long, and I saw the challenge to get it to FA was not only for the article itself, but with a mind to creating a modus operandum for all the FG articles (which, incidentally, have all been heavily conflict-ridden), but I realised that I am so heavily invested in this that I take many things for granted, which is where you come in, thank you. Trust has also been an issue: FG editors are like what you have read in, for example, Ownby and Kavan. Their defenses are at DEFCON4 if not 5. There have been belligerent FG opponents as well as FG supporters who have always made matters worse, as I have ended up fighting off both sides until I decided one day that I had had enough, but I digress.
FAC commentary post promotion
I think it is a bit premature to state that the current version of the article is of FA class since there are still statements like: "Female, music teacher, practitioner since 1997". This things are serious, because those people who jump to the table will take for a fact the PRC version of the events. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 07:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The only thing I could think of to address your concern would be to add after "State media gave the participants' details as follows:", or after the table itself, something like "Falun Gong denies the participants were movement members". While I think the article gives sufficient context as it is, I would not object to adding something like this before or after the table. JN466 14:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, for now I think I need to go back to /sources, as I know Karen (from UN) is not included and I suspect that there quite a few more sources out there. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you look back at an earlier version, you will see that another Falun Gong single purpose account decided to do away with the table of people involved because he considered it unreliable propaganda/slander. The fact that it was utterly pertinent, properly sourced and attributed mattered little to him, however, he hypocritically used the same rationale (ie properly sourced and attributed) when it suited him even when the relevance of his insertions were more problematic; he forced and bullied his way - I am not suggesting you, Happy, are like him in the latter respect. SilkTork perceived there was much in the article which 'forced views upon the reader' at every turn that FLG was not involved. Following his advice, I was emboldened to remove quite a few instances of FLG denials or similar which I had previously been reticent to touch for fear of adversely affecting the the neutrality that I perceived in the article at the time. Now I realise that it created an excessively convoluted article structure, with constant backwards and forwards. Neutrality does not mean truth, it just means views presented in an objective fashion. Please be reminded that we are writing for Wikipedia - this is not about 'truth, compassion and forbearance', validating or defending the Fa. Wikipedia is about verifiability and attribution over truth. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- As for the past we can bring up too many things (quick sample) but I don't think that we want to live in the past. Do you agree? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you look back at an earlier version, you will see that another Falun Gong single purpose account decided to do away with the table of people involved because he considered it unreliable propaganda/slander. The fact that it was utterly pertinent, properly sourced and attributed mattered little to him, however, he hypocritically used the same rationale (ie properly sourced and attributed) when it suited him even when the relevance of his insertions were more problematic; he forced and bullied his way - I am not suggesting you, Happy, are like him in the latter respect. SilkTork perceived there was much in the article which 'forced views upon the reader' at every turn that FLG was not involved. Following his advice, I was emboldened to remove quite a few instances of FLG denials or similar which I had previously been reticent to touch for fear of adversely affecting the the neutrality that I perceived in the article at the time. Now I realise that it created an excessively convoluted article structure, with constant backwards and forwards. Neutrality does not mean truth, it just means views presented in an objective fashion. Please be reminded that we are writing for Wikipedia - this is not about 'truth, compassion and forbearance', validating or defending the Fa. Wikipedia is about verifiability and attribution over truth. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with what Ohconfucius says. Wikipedia is not like many other forms of publication - we do not originate material, nor argue nor persuade nor investigate nor do many of the things that people often associate with published articles. The aim is to reflect material that has already been published. We do not wish to comment on that material, either directly with editorial comments, nor by presenting it in a manner that implies we support or disagree with the material. What we want to do with this article is say: this event has been reported - this is what sources have said happened. And in doing that we want to be sure we are giving proportionate and balanced space to what sources have to say. In the process of presenting information on what happened, it is inevitable that we will present material that a Falun Gong member would object to as well as material that the Chinese government would object to. But we are not deciding who is right and who is wrong - we are letting the reader make up their own mind by giving the reader the information. Now, if a government source says that a person comes from a certain town, has a certain name, and belongs to a certain group, we report that. And then we report that some aspects of that information is contested. But we do need to first report what has been said. We cannot pick and choose which of the government information not to report. That would be wrong. SilkTork *YES! 09:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well said SikTork, I definitely agree. That is why I started to work on /sources. Right now I believe that this is a powerful way to map out what is WP:DUE. What do you think? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I can see the fallacy straight away: we all know how prolific both Falun Gong and the Chinese authorities are on the subject... Playing arithmetic, except for mainstream media possibly weighted by the respective readdership (and even that is problematic), means very little. Ohconfucius (talk) 11:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- In the /sources list, I tried to deal with that from the start, placing sources into WP:SPS, secondary sources and high reliable sources. That is basically an attempt to give the source some kind of weight and categorization. Now if we have 100 links from one source saying 1 thing, that will still give it a weight 1, not 100, right? Anyway, for the moment, I think it's best to list all that we think are relevant. After that we can decide how to include them based on their WP:DUE. At this point I'm not sure why you claim fallacy over this. Maybe I understood something wrong? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I can see the fallacy straight away: we all know how prolific both Falun Gong and the Chinese authorities are on the subject... Playing arithmetic, except for mainstream media possibly weighted by the respective readdership (and even that is problematic), means very little. Ohconfucius (talk) 11:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well said SikTork, I definitely agree. That is why I started to work on /sources. Right now I believe that this is a powerful way to map out what is WP:DUE. What do you think? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with what Ohconfucius says. Wikipedia is not like many other forms of publication - we do not originate material, nor argue nor persuade nor investigate nor do many of the things that people often associate with published articles. The aim is to reflect material that has already been published. We do not wish to comment on that material, either directly with editorial comments, nor by presenting it in a manner that implies we support or disagree with the material. What we want to do with this article is say: this event has been reported - this is what sources have said happened. And in doing that we want to be sure we are giving proportionate and balanced space to what sources have to say. In the process of presenting information on what happened, it is inevitable that we will present material that a Falun Gong member would object to as well as material that the Chinese government would object to. But we are not deciding who is right and who is wrong - we are letting the reader make up their own mind by giving the reader the information. Now, if a government source says that a person comes from a certain town, has a certain name, and belongs to a certain group, we report that. And then we report that some aspects of that information is contested. But we do need to first report what has been said. We cannot pick and choose which of the government information not to report. That would be wrong. SilkTork *YES! 09:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Just quickly, after a brief scan, it appears that there are serious NPOV concerns with parts of the article in its current form. One thing that strikes me as particularly odd is the large table, drawn from CCP propaganda, which attempts to sum up the people involved and their alleged Falun Gong credentials, along with thumbnail pics etc. This totally violates WP:DUE. Chinese state media is not a reliable source on the topic of the persecution of Falun Gong, or on Falun Gong. The addition of propaganda from CCP sources should be done with circumspection, and done carefully, and be clearly labelled. Having a giant table gives the opposite impression, and makes these sources appear much more authoritative than they are. Suggest summarising the information in prose form, noting all discrepancies with other research (which are also sidelined in this format).--Asdfg12345 01:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I read SilkTork's and OhConfucius's comments. Understood. A key point is still that CCP mouthpieces discussing this topic are not reliable sources. At the moment the way things are presented in the article gives the impression that the information is authoritative. This isn't an opinion, since there is a huge amount of literature about China's extensive propaganda and censorship system. Discussing this topic, one of the most sensitive for propaganda and public security officials in China, outside the context of the repression of Falun Gong and the propaganda war waged against it--all totally verifiable etc.--would be to warp the discussion and give undue weight to unreliable sources. Anyway, I think the devil is in the detail, really. When we talk about anything in the article, like the people involved, it should be with a mind to including all relevant information. We shouldn't present as authoritative the official account of the people, then group all the third party comments about the incident and the people and other issues together. Know what I mean? Every aspect of this is disputed, and on every point the range of views that have been circulated need to be conveyed (in accordance with to what extent they've been adopted by the various sources of course). So what I mean is, I suggest the part about the people involved not just take the CCP info, but be based on all the information available from various sources. Failure to do this would be to elevate an unreliable source as presenting facts, which violates wikipedia policies.--Asdfg12345 01:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I am unable to find the actual context for the phrase "At the same time, though, Li repeated many times in his post-1999 writings that practitioners were good and moral people who "obey the law and the government."" added by this edit, in that I cannot verify whether it is indeed in relation to his post-1999 scriptures. Can anyone help verify this, please? The only bits in the book I can access through Google states "He insists over and over that practitioners are good people who obey the law and government. Their hearts are pure, and they have something to offer..." I think that regardless of this, Li clearly expects his followers to pay greater heed to his word rather than that of the authorities, so its place in this text is rather irrelevant and bordering on synthesis. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- Page 190 is about the 1999 demonstration in Zhongnanhai: [1] You can read on from there to page 191. I have a hardcopy of the book too, so if you need anything further that isn't in google books, just ask. --JN466 21:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- The long speech quoted on page 191 is from a news conference in Sydney on May 2 1999. If you have an amazon customer account, the book has a fully searchable preview in amazon. --JN466 21:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
- I cannot access the online sources. It would be great if you could email the scan of the two pages to me. Ohconfucius at hotmail. Cheers, Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:33, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
section changes
Hello, I think since over 9 years have gone by, it has become clear that self immolation is not a part of Falun Gong. There has been a lot (more than a lot) of evidence that Falun Gong is severely persecuted by the Chinese government and that he self immolation was more than likely a staged event. Western journalists have gone to investigate and found that several people involved were not "practitioners" of Falun Gong. This is noted in the Wiki entry but buried below. Can we put that up closer in the introduction? (This isn't really a disputed issue anymore) Also, I think with so many Chinese media sources being cited, it is not an unbiased review of the event. As most know, Chinese media is state run. CCTV and Xinhua news are not "reliable sources" as required by Wiki. There have been books and articles published more recently that cast more than a serious doubt on the self immolation being a something related to Falun Gong but more likely something related to the Chinese government's attempt to create propaganda to use in banning the movement. As noted in the Wiki article already (but buried below), western journalists were not allowed to investigate immediately after the incident and most articles published right after that period mimic CCTV and Xinhua news sources which again, are not "reliable" as they are state run by the Chinese dictatorship.
Further, there is no evidence that any of the the people/victims involved where Falun Gong practitioners other than this is what was reported by Chinese run media sources. A couple of them being called practitioners in the Center Table with Photos, while several clearly were not does not make sense. Claiming that the victims were "practitioners" should be removed. In fact, if several were proven not to be practitioners by western journalists, the article should be revised.
Lastly, I am just getting the hang of using Wiki so please be patient with my attempts to edit. I hope to be able to find your messages if you send them. Thank you!
AnnaInDC (talk) 10:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- Your changes were distinctly non-NPOV. It is by no means clear they were not FLG practitioners, although this is what FLG organisation maintains. Although you cited Pan, mainly, the changes you made are straight out of The Epoch Times. Just because FLG is persecuted by the Chinese regime does not mean that FLG are always right, either - those two are independent. I have once again reverted you. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Please explain why you reverted the changes, each change at a time. I did not use Epoch Times. For example, I added a direct link to NTDTV and provided my reasons for doing so. It is in line with the trend set up of directly linking to the media source, as done with Xinhua, CCTV and Washington Post. Please explain why you reverted this change. I also replaced the link to New Religion with qigong. Would you like to have both links exist in that sentence? Falung Gong is a know qigong. Please explain why you reverted this. Also, checking Falun Dafa Information Center, a respected source, they claimed that 2 of the self immolators where investigated and were not seen practicing Falun Gong, as investigated by journalist Philip Pan: http://www.faluninfo.net/article/837/ This investigation is a basis of their bebuking the incident, not merely that it is "considered a sin" which is a hookie and weak claim. I've read the neutral point of view policy and it says Wikipedia requires that "significant views" be published. The point of view of the Falun Dafa Information Center is a significant view and should be included in the intro in an abbreviated but complete form, not just cherry picking the weakest points (e.g. killing is a sin). Please see above link for all complete points rebuking self immolation incident listed. AnnaInDC (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's very disturbing to see, years after trying to mediate these pages, that new editors are still inserting exactly the same language. It's enough to make one think that there is off-site direction happening, down to which references to use. 76.102.12.35 (talk) 04:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- "As most know, Chinese media is state run. CCTV and Xinhua news are not "reliable sources" as required by Wiki." By the same logic NTDTV and faluninfo.net are FLG-run media outlets, ergo not reliable sources, ergo should not be included (hey, it's your own logic!). "there is no evidence that any of the the people/victims involved where Falun Gong practitioners" There is no (solid) evidence that they aren't either. It's a matter of China says yes, FLG says no, and this is exactly what this article conveys. "Falung Gong is a know qigong." citation needed (and no, just because FLG say it is doesn't mean it is). If for once you FLG practitioners could actually be fair and apply the same principles to both sides it wouldn't be such a pain to deal with these conflicts. --antilivedT | C | G 05:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Antilived, "by the same logic", should the references to Xinhau and CCTV be removed? Why is it alright to extensively refernece Xinhau and CCTV with direct links on the page to them and not alright to reference NTDVT? Also, you wrote for reasons for reverting to the old version that I was refering to "a dead woman to be a whore... really?" This is not the content I added. Lui's profession was of someone who worked in a nightclub, which is what I added. See: "The mother was a quiet woman who kept to herself, the daughter a lively fifth-grader who never failed to smile and say hello. Neighbors recalled there was something both strange and sad about Liu Chunling, that she sometimes hit her child, that she drove her elderly mother away, that she worked in a nightclub and took money to keep men company." [P.Pan,"Washington Post: Human Fire Ignites Chinese Mystery," Washingtion Post, 2001] This article is a 3rd part investigation and was not referenced in this long Wiki entry. I have added it. Please leave it as it is a 3rd party source. AnnaInDC (talk) 05:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think you have missed my point there. By your logic NO sources would be allowed since it's mainly a battle between Chinese and FLG propaganda. I have not said anything about NTDTV other than applying your own logic on yourself, and indeed it is cited extensively in the FLG sections of the article. There has been extensive coverage on the doubts of the victims being practitioners, there is no need to relentlessly repeat what is basically the same thing (other than the allegation of Liu Chunling being a prostitute, which is bad taste for a deceased woman and although it no longer applies, I still think WP:BLP has some good points on this). Also, all of the allegations in your article are hearsays by neighbours. Don't know about you but I definitely wouldn't trust my neighbours to do my biography. Wikipedia does not REQUIRE the inclusion of every single third party source (it'd then be something WP is not). If it's redundant (doubts of practitioner-ness? Check. And that's probably it), why include it? --antilivedT | C | G 05:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Since yesterday, this article has come under "concerted" attack from a single-purpose account and other IP editors with an obvious FLG perspective. Wikipedia is about verifiability and not truth. It is accepted that there is little possibility of objective reporting in this situation. Nowhere is it claimed that Chinese state media or Falun Gong-controlled media, both cited in abundance in this article, are reliable sources, but these sources merely advance the position of two opposing sides. How fresh it is to see use of a nine-year-old source as the main piece of evidence to show that "it has become clear that self immolation is not a part of Falun Gong". As to you saying "I was refering to 'a dead woman to be a whore... really?' This is not the content I added" – thanks to the transparency of wikipedia, that comment can easily be shown to be a lie. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 10:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for leaving the link to NTDTV. This is in line with the other direct links to the other media companies mentioned in the article. As you pointed out, most sources on this issue are 9 years old. Your first reference is not from FDI (though attribute to FDI) but from a Falun Gong practice website. That killing is "condisered a sin" is not a FACT, yet you have picked this as a main reason FDI rebuked the self-immolation incident. After the incident was extensively investigated, other reasons are now the main premise attributing it to being staged or not related to the burning of Falun Gong pracitioners and you have not presented those upfront. See bullet points herein:http://www.faluninfo.net/article/837/ Also, WP:BLP requires senstivity toward living people and that the same common sense can be applied to the deceased. However, "nighclub worker" as Lui worked in a night club was her profession, "that she worked in a nightclub and took money to keep men company." [P.Pan,"Washington Post: Human Fire Ignites Chinese Mystery," Washingtion Post, 2001] I have not added the more subjective observation that she took money from men to the caption.
Also, I am perceiving a high degree of obvious OWNERSHIP attribute to this article by past editors such as OhConfucious wherein reason for reverting all the additions or changes made are not even given. A request for citation of a reliable source is also being ignored and reverted. The references cited are 9 years old, even outdated and the more updated references on this subject are ignored and should be included. AnnaInDC (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- See my response to Asfdg for the prostitute issue. In short, Washington Post didn't say she's a prostitute, Washington Post said it heard from her neighbour that she works in a night club and is a prostitute (big difference there!). Now before you start accusing people of owning the article, edit-warring is a bigger no no. Two wrongs do not make a right (just like just because CCP engages in propaganda doesn't justify FLG to do the same). --antilivedT | C | G 07:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The section Falun Gong and Self Immolation should be deleted. It references an Institue of Cultic Studies based in China as a primary reference and cites this link which is not for said "Institute" nor a RELIABLE source:http://www.facts.org.cn/Feature/hand/Cases/200904/t90507.htm This anti-Falun Gong propaganda and not VERIFIABLE. Also the section reads like an ORIGINAL SYNTHESIS. Self Immolation practices in Buddhism are irrelevant here. After 9 years self immolation as related to Falun Gong is has been disproven. In otherwords, there is no such thing as "Falun Gong and Self Immolation" which this section as synthesized based on an obscure website used by the Chinese Government to spread anti-FalunGong propoganda. AnnaInDC (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, thus far, I've obvserved blind reverting of new contributions. Instead of reverting the changes without consideration for other points of you, why don't you help incorporate the additional information or views (such as those note above) in a way you feel is appropriate and would benefit readers seeking balanced and updated information on this subject. For example, this article by P. Pan is not cited or discussed, [P.Pan,"Washington Post: Human Fire Ignites Chinese Mystery," Washingtion Post, 2001] also, the book by Proffessor David Ownby published in 2008,"Falun Gong and the Future of China" (an updated source) where he researches and discusses extensively about the self immolation incident is not cited or discussed.[edit: sorry, you did cite it briefly to say that "Professor David Ownby of the University of Montreal[11] remarked it was possible for misguided practitioners to have taken it upon themselves to demonstrate in this manner." This is by no means a conclusion of the 200+ page book or the points he makes therein, yet you have cherry picked this statement to support what appears is a personal point of view. I suppose if more statements from the book are added, you will revert those?]. In summary, this article appears to rely extensively on old sources including those generated and copied from Chinese media around 2001/2002 and are given UNDUE WEIGHT, independent western media investigations cited herein are few and new sources for citation on this topic have been ignored and should be incorporated. AnnaInDC (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC).
- The burden is on you to provide why it should be included, not on me for why it shouldn't be included. Also, who is this "you" you are talking about? Me? Ohconfucius? Before you start accusing us non-FLG practitioners of malice and lumping us together, read WP:AGF and WP:ETIQUETTE please. --antilivedT | C | G 07:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
section changes
Hello, I think since over 9 years have gone by, it has become clear that self immolation is not a part of Falun Gong. There has been a lot (more than a lot) of evidence that Falun Gong is severely persecuted by the Chinese government and that he self immolation was more than likely a staged event. Western journalists have gone to investigate and found that several people involved were not "practitioners" of Falun Gong. This is noted in the Wiki entry but buried below. Can we put that up closer in the introduction? (This isn't really a disputed issue anymore) Also, I think with so many Chinese media sources being cited, it is not an unbiased review of the event. As most know, Chinese media is state run. CCTV and Xinhua news are not "reliable sources" as required by Wiki. There have been books and articles published more recently that cast more than a serious doubt on the self immolation being a something related to Falun Gong but more likely something related to the Chinese government's attempt to create propaganda to use in banning the movement. As noted in the Wiki article already (but buried below), western journalists were not allowed to investigate immediately after the incident and most articles published right after that period mimic CCTV and Xinhua news sources which again, are not "reliable" as they are state run by the Chinese dictatorship.
Further, there is no evidence that any of the the people/victims involved where Falun Gong practitioners other than this is what was reported by Chinese run media sources. A couple of them being called practitioners in the Center Table with Photos, while several clearly were not does not make sense. Claiming that the victims were "practitioners" should be removed. In fact, if several were proven not to be practitioners by western journalists, the article should be revised.
Lastly, I am just getting the hang of using Wiki so please be patient with my attempts to edit. I hope to be able to find your messages if you send them. Thank you!
AnnaInDC (talk) 10:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- Your changes were distinctly non-NPOV. It is by no means clear they were not FLG practitioners, although this is what FLG organisation maintains. Although you cited Pan, mainly, the changes you made are straight out of The Epoch Times. Just because FLG is persecuted by the Chinese regime does not mean that FLG are always right, either - those two are independent. I have once again reverted you. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Please explain why you reverted the changes, each change at a time. I did not use Epoch Times. For example, I added a direct link to NTDTV and provided my reasons for doing so. It is in line with the trend set up of directly linking to the media source, as done with Xinhua, CCTV and Washington Post. Please explain why you reverted this change. I also replaced the link to New Religion with qigong. Would you like to have both links exist in that sentence? Falung Gong is a know qigong. Please explain why you reverted this. Also, checking Falun Dafa Information Center, a respected source, they claimed that 2 of the self immolators where investigated and were not seen practicing Falun Gong, as investigated by journalist Philip Pan: http://www.faluninfo.net/article/837/ This investigation is a basis of their bebuking the incident, not merely that it is "considered a sin" which is a hookie and weak claim. I've read the neutral point of view policy and it says Wikipedia requires that "significant views" be published. The point of view of the Falun Dafa Information Center is a significant view and should be included in the intro in an abbreviated but complete form, not just cherry picking the weakest points (e.g. killing is a sin). Please see above link for all complete points rebuking self immolation incident listed. AnnaInDC (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's very disturbing to see, years after trying to mediate these pages, that new editors are still inserting exactly the same language. It's enough to make one think that there is off-site direction happening, down to which references to use. 76.102.12.35 (talk) 04:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- "As most know, Chinese media is state run. CCTV and Xinhua news are not "reliable sources" as required by Wiki." By the same logic NTDTV and faluninfo.net are FLG-run media outlets, ergo not reliable sources, ergo should not be included (hey, it's your own logic!). "there is no evidence that any of the the people/victims involved where Falun Gong practitioners" There is no (solid) evidence that they aren't either. It's a matter of China says yes, FLG says no, and this is exactly what this article conveys. "Falung Gong is a know qigong." citation needed (and no, just because FLG say it is doesn't mean it is). If for once you FLG practitioners could actually be fair and apply the same principles to both sides it wouldn't be such a pain to deal with these conflicts. --antilivedT | C | G 05:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Antilived, "by the same logic", should the references to Xinhau and CCTV be removed? Why is it alright to extensively refernece Xinhau and CCTV with direct links on the page to them and not alright to reference NTDVT? Also, you wrote for reasons for reverting to the old version that I was refering to "a dead woman to be a whore... really?" This is not the content I added. Lui's profession was of someone who worked in a nightclub, which is what I added. See: "The mother was a quiet woman who kept to herself, the daughter a lively fifth-grader who never failed to smile and say hello. Neighbors recalled there was something both strange and sad about Liu Chunling, that she sometimes hit her child, that she drove her elderly mother away, that she worked in a nightclub and took money to keep men company." [P.Pan,"Washington Post: Human Fire Ignites Chinese Mystery," Washingtion Post, 2001] This article is a 3rd part investigation and was not referenced in this long Wiki entry. I have added it. Please leave it as it is a 3rd party source. AnnaInDC (talk) 05:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think you have missed my point there. By your logic NO sources would be allowed since it's mainly a battle between Chinese and FLG propaganda. I have not said anything about NTDTV other than applying your own logic on yourself, and indeed it is cited extensively in the FLG sections of the article. There has been extensive coverage on the doubts of the victims being practitioners, there is no need to relentlessly repeat what is basically the same thing (other than the allegation of Liu Chunling being a prostitute, which is bad taste for a deceased woman and although it no longer applies, I still think WP:BLP has some good points on this). Also, all of the allegations in your article are hearsays by neighbours. Don't know about you but I definitely wouldn't trust my neighbours to do my biography. Wikipedia does not REQUIRE the inclusion of every single third party source (it'd then be something WP is not). If it's redundant (doubts of practitioner-ness? Check. And that's probably it), why include it? --antilivedT | C | G 05:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Since yesterday, this article has come under "concerted" attack from a single-purpose account and other IP editors with an obvious FLG perspective. Wikipedia is about verifiability and not truth. It is accepted that there is little possibility of objective reporting in this situation. Nowhere is it claimed that Chinese state media or Falun Gong-controlled media, both cited in abundance in this article, are reliable sources, but these sources merely advance the position of two opposing sides. How fresh it is to see use of a nine-year-old source as the main piece of evidence to show that "it has become clear that self immolation is not a part of Falun Gong". As to you saying "I was refering to 'a dead woman to be a whore... really?' This is not the content I added" – thanks to the transparency of wikipedia, that comment can easily be shown to be a lie. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 10:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for leaving the link to NTDTV. This is in line with the other direct links to the other media companies mentioned in the article. As you pointed out, most sources on this issue are 9 years old. Your first reference is not from FDI (though attribute to FDI) but from a Falun Gong practice website. That killing is "condisered a sin" is not a FACT, yet you have picked this as a main reason FDI rebuked the self-immolation incident. After the incident was extensively investigated, other reasons are now the main premise attributing it to being staged or not related to the burning of Falun Gong pracitioners and you have not presented those upfront. See bullet points herein:http://www.faluninfo.net/article/837/ Also, WP:BLP requires senstivity toward living people and that the same common sense can be applied to the deceased. However, "nighclub worker" as Lui worked in a night club was her profession, "that she worked in a nightclub and took money to keep men company." [P.Pan,"Washington Post: Human Fire Ignites Chinese Mystery," Washingtion Post, 2001] I have not added the more subjective observation that she took money from men to the caption.
Also, I am perceiving a high degree of obvious OWNERSHIP attribute to this article by past editors such as OhConfucious wherein reason for reverting all the additions or changes made are not even given. A request for citation of a reliable source is also being ignored and reverted. The references cited are 9 years old, even outdated and the more updated references on this subject are ignored and should be included. AnnaInDC (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The section Falun Gong and Self Immolation should be deleted. It references an Institue of Cultic Studies based in China as a primary reference and cites this link which is not for said "Institute" nor a RELIABLE source:http://www.facts.org.cn/Feature/hand/Cases/200904/t90507.htm This anti-Falun Gong propaganda and not VERIFIABLE. Also the section reads like an ORIGINAL SYNTHESIS. Self Immolation practices in Buddhism are irrelevant here. After 9 years self immolation as related to Falun Gong is has been disproven. In otherwords, there is no such thing as "Falun Gong and Self Immolation" which this section as synthesized based on an obscure website used by the Chinese Government to spread anti-FalunGong propoganda. AnnaInDC (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, thus far, I've obvserved blind reverting of new contributions. Instead of reverting the changes without consideration for other points of you, why don't you help incorporate the additional information or views (such as those note above) in a way you feel is appropriate and would benefit readers seeking balanced and updated information on this subject. For example, this article by P. Pan is not cited or discussed, [P.Pan,"Washington Post: Human Fire Ignites Chinese Mystery," Washingtion Post, 2001] also, the book by Proffessor David Ownby published in 2008,"Falun Gong and the Future of China" (an updated source) where he researches and discusses extensively about the self immolation incident is not cited or discussed.[edit: sorry, you did cite it briefly to say that "Professor David Ownby of the University of Montreal[11] remarked it was possible for misguided practitioners to have taken it upon themselves to demonstrate in this manner." This is by no means a conclusion of the 200+ page book or the points he makes therein, yet you have cherry picked this statement to support what appears is a personal point of view. I suppose if more statements from the book are added, you will revert those?]. In summary, this article appears to rely extensively on old sources including those generated and copied from Chinese media around 2001/2002 and are given UNDUE WEIGHT, independent western media investigations cited herein are few and new sources for citation on this topic have been ignored and should be incorporated. AnnaInDC (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC).
Quick analysis of some reverts
- AnnaInDC is no sock of mine, just to be clear. I'm also not going to be a cheerleader for anyone who adds what appears to be "pro-FLG" content. But I am interested in this discussion, and I looked at one set of changes. I'll write what the edits were and whether I think they were appropriate per wiki content policies. Note that in italics are the edits or changes that AnnaInDC made; they were all reverted in this particular skirmish.
- Example 1 (where the new editor is called out as a possible "Falun Gong propagandist"):
- changing a description of Xinhua from "press agency" to "state media" -- probably not necessary, given it's already described as "official Chinese". But somewhere in the article a clarification that Xinhua is the CCP's official "throat and tongue" (mouthpiece) would be helpful to the reader, along with the background of the propaganda campaign that particular publication lead.
- changing Falun Gong from being described as a "new religious movement" to a "qigong movement" -- what's wrong with this? Ownby, Penny, and even Palmer subscribe to this view. I think it should be left. "Qigong" has far more scholarly support than NRM. If that's disputed, let's see some good sources.
- adding and at least two of the victims were never seen practicing Falun Gong, as reported by the Washington Post -- it's also unclear what's wrong with this.
- putting a citation tag -- unclear what's wrong with this.
- adding that "The video footage was deconstructed into slow motion"' -- unclear what's wrong with that
- removing the claims, used in the anti-Falun Gong propaganda campaign (and that description, "anti-Falun Gong propaganda," is given by scholars, not me), that the individuals were practitioners since 199x -- this is removing the bias from the table. It was a clear violation of WP:DUE to have those state media descriptions in a prominent, official looking table like that. That should be obvious
- adding an explanation that she "took money to keep men company" -- why should this be deleted?
- Okay, those were all the changes in italics, and my thoughts in plain font, for what it's worth. That was just for one edit. The changes do not seem tendentious. The hostile response, particularly to a newcomer, and willingness to edit war rather than discuss the changes are the actual problem, in my view, not these individuals edits.--Asdfg12345 05:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Example 2 (this time I will just explain what the revert was and a remark about it in brackets. Reason Antilived gives for revert is "because it's mostly irrelevant"):
- removes tags
- reverts that she was a night club worker in the caption
- changes "press agency" to "state media" (I think that's fine)
- changes "qigong" to "NRM" (violates V)
- removes that "at least two of the victims were never seen practicing Falun Gong, as reported by the Washington Post" (unclear why this should be removed? It's not explained.)
- removes the fact that the video was "deconstructed in slow motion" (is that a disputed or controversial description of the contents of the video in question?)
- adds that they were "practitioners since 199x" (obviously violates NPOV/DUE for including the propaganda claims in an official looking table, as noted above)
- deletes elaboration of the Post "took money to keep men company remark' (the reason for this is unclear)
These actually look like a very similar set of edits. As far as I can see, Antilived and Ohconfucius haven't made clear what is problematic or POV-pushing about AnnaInDC's changes. Instead she is told to take her "FLG propaganda campaign elsewhere," which strikes me as rather uncollegial.
Further remarks: The use of propaganda sources for factual information is troubling (such as that of Xinhua in the lead). There are also some original syntheses, and a general departure from WP:DUE in the article as a whole. I will elaborate on both those points in a later post. One point is the synthesis violations; the other is the WP:DUE violations. The second will take a bit longer to prepare, but to cut a long story short, refer to Ownby's treatment of the subject in Falun Gong and the Future of China pp. 215-218. That's fairly neutral. This wikipedia page is not.--Asdfg12345 05:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Finally, some of the explanations for removing the content are nonsensical by wikipedia's content standards. The explanation for excluding parts of Philip Pan's investigation, according to Antilived, is that "There has been extensive coverage on the doubts of the victims being practitioners, there is no need to relentlessly repeat what is basically the same thing (other than the allegation of Liu Chunling being a prostitute, which is bad taste for a deceased woman and although it no longer applies, I still think WP:BLP has some good points on this). Also, all of the allegations in your article are hearsays by neighbours. Don't know about you but I definitely wouldn't trust my neighbours to do my biography." -- the added information was a few sentences, I don't think that's "relentlessly repeating"; BLP is obviously irrelevant; and the "hearsay by neighbours" and the quality of neighbours as biographers is also irrelevant, since those were reported by Philip Pan in his article, which is a reliable source for the purposes of wikipedia. The information excluded was "and at least two of the victims were never seen practicing Falun Gong, as reported by the Washington Post" (from the lead) and that she "took money to keep men company". This appears to be sourced, relevant information, presented in a straightforward way. The reason for removing it does not stand up to scrutiny, in my estimate.--Asdfg12345 06:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Now before you start lawyering me about how BLP doesn't apply because she's dead, let me ask you: what is the purpose of WP:BLP? To protect someone's namesake from baseless slander and libel is the correct answer. In that regard, does it really make any difference if the person is alive or dead (other than Wikipedia's liability)? Don't you think spreading the rumour that a dead woman is a prostitute disgusting? Yes, they were reported by Philip Pan, but he reported the neighbours saying those things, and have been perfectly clear on that, giving the reader warning to apply a pinch of salt. "her neighbours say..." is VERY different from "she is... because we've investigated...". He does not personally endorse the comment, and gives big caveat before the quote. Take that out of context, and you make it sound like Washington Post said she's a prostitute, when it's merely Washington Post reporting her neighbours saying she's a prostitute. (hope you see the difference there). As for the "practitioner since.." thing, you seemed to be fine with it here... A big caveat is given before the table; we aren't presenting it as facts but as what Xinhua has said. As Xinhua is the only one to release information on the "victims", how is it undue to include what they have said about the centre piece of this whole incident, the victims? I personally don't care about the other edits, but in the face of Anna's repeated edit-warring (she has far exceeded WP:3RR) I've simply reverted her changes to promote discussion. --antilivedT | C | G 07:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- In my experience, discussion does not rely on reverting someone's changes. I don't know how that is supposed to work. About what you said, yes, I can see what you mean. Neighbours are just neighbours. But this is wikipedia, and WPost is a reliable source. It's very easy to have a few words in there "according to neighbours interviewed" or whatever it is. You could make a change like that rather than reverting, right? Wouldn't that be a nicer way of handling the issue? I think so. Regarding the table, please see this part of UNDUE: "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well." -- under the circumstance where the issue of whether they are practitioners or not is precisely what is in dispute, it's obviously biased to put that information in a table, making it look very neat and official. Xinhua's reports on this topic are anti-Falun Gong propaganda; not a reliable source. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I also don't see how presenting such propaganda claims that way is neutral. In fact, I disagree with having a table at all, as long as all that information if from Xinhua and has not been verified by any other source. Also, saying the editor has edit warred, and you are simply reverting him/her (I want to clarify that, it's annoying using the slash or calling "her" when not sure), is a cop out. The real issue is the subject of the changes. I numbered them above. Please feel free to respond, perhaps clearly explaining your objection in terms of relevant policy. I totally don't understand why you are bringing up BLP here. She's dead, apparently.--Asdfg12345 09:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- I told you I don't really care about the other edits since they are so minor, as 80% of the edit is the insertion of the nightclub thing. It is removed because I have the decency to not to baselessly cast a dead woman's name in negative light, and that it is completely irrelevant to the incident. Tell me, how does whether she is a prostitute or not matter? The view that she is a prostitute is of the neighbour's and neighbour's alone (ie. fringe view until it's proven to be more widespread), Washington Poste does not endorse it but merely reported such view exists. To put in such a serious claim as truth when it's merely hearsay is a grievous attack on her (deceased) person, and as it is completely unconstructive to the content it should be immediately removed. As for the table; as Xinhua is the only source of information on the victims and was a major player in creating the controversy, how is it undue to state what they have stated about the centre piece of this incident? The whole thing is a China vs. FLG fight, and that is reflected in the article with opposing views having their own sections. This is journalism, in the same vein that Philip Pan reported the neighbour's view, we are reporting both Xinhua's and FLG released information. We do not and should not judge whether it's true or not, whether it's propaganda or not, merely that it exists, can be traced to a significant party, and report as it came from that party. The rest should be left to the reader to decide. --antilivedT | C | G 09:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think at this point it would be helpful to get the views of outside editors. If you still dispute including that information about the woman from Pan, let's take it to a noticeboard and get another opinion. Same with including Xinhua propaganda in the table. I think it's obvious that that format of presentation violates the undue and NPOV policies, and I explained why. If we can't agree, let's take it to the NPOV board and see what others think. Agree?--Asdfg12345 10:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
About whether Falun Gong should be classified as "qigong" or not
I'd suggest "a form of qigong" or something along those lines. It's clear that Falun Gong differs from the forms of qigong that emphasise only healing, fitness or Extraordinary Powers, but describing it as "a form of qigong" or something similar has textual support. Quotes follow source. This is just from a quick trawl through some sources. There are many more. I'd be interested in how many sources the NRM claim has.--Asdfg12345 05:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Madsen, Richard. Understanding Falun Gong. Current History; Sep 2000; 99, 638
p. 244 Falun Gong is a form of qigong developed in 1992 by Li Hongzhi...
Like most qigong practitioners, Falun Gong members do not make a clear distinction between physical and spiritual healing. Thus, from a Western viewpoint, most forms of qigong look more like religion than medicine...
Lowe, Scott. Chinese and International Contexts for the Rise of Falun Gong. Nova Religio April 2003, Vol. 6, No. 2
p.263 Falun Gong is the form of qigong Li Hongzhi began teaching in 1992.
Ownby, David. A History for Falun Gong Popular Religion and the Chinese State since the Ming Dynasty, Nova Religio 6 2 (2003) 223-243
p. 235 In any case, however large Falun Gong now looms as an independent entity, it was at the outset no more than a variety of qigong.
Neither Li Hongzhi nor Falun Gong was controversial in the beginning. Instead, Li became an instant star of the qigong movement, celebrated at the Beijing Oriental Health Expos of 1992 and 1993.
Ownby, David. Falungong and Canada's Foreign Policy. 56 Int’l J. 183 2000-2001
p. 187 At the most basic level, Falungong is a variety of qigong, and Li Hongzhi emerged in 1992 to 'rectify' the alrger qigong movement, which in his view was rife with false teachings and greedy and fraudulent 'masters.'
- ...and so should Islam be described as "a form of Christianity Muhammad developed"? All of your quotes say FLG is a form of qigong at 1992, but what about now? Your third quote goes against your agenda, because if FLG is a separate entity it can't possibly be a form a qigong now can it (it can, however, originate from qigong). The very title of Ownby's paper, "A History for Falun Gong Popular Religion ...", further points it towards the religion rather than qigong. Let's now look at the definition of religion: A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe check, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances check, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.check I would say that's a good fit, do you? --antilivedT | C | G 07:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- We don't need to dispute such basic things as verifiability and reliable sources. If you can bring more sources, and more mainstream sources, supporting your POV, do so. If you can't, that's fine, too. At the moment we have reliable sources supporting the wording "form of qigong." Yes, they're not all unanimous, and it's not so clear cut, but it's obviously more sound than relying on your original research and quirky logic.--Asdfg12345 09:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- It is an absolute fallacy to play battle of the sources here - I'll match your Palmer and I'll raise you a Cheris. Of course, most scholars who believe the 'qigong' label is appropriate, because it is largely what FLG is. Due to the nature of FLG, though, it belongs to other categories. We all know the ACM refers to FLG as a 'cult'; there are many scholars who see religious traits within FLG; Cheris is only one of those who refers to FLG as a NRM, "with cult characteristics". These categorisations are not mutually exclusive. I note that FLG dislikes the NRM label, but that is not a reason not to use it. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 09:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, "playing the battle of sources" is probably the only reasonable way to resolve such issues. If you can think of another objective method, please share it. The best and fairest I can think of is to look at all the major, reliable sources on the topic, and see which forms of categorisation are most common. Otherwise it's just one person's word against another's, and that is never going to resolve anything. We need to submit to this kind of scrutiny, or it's all just opinions, right? There are far more reliable sources classifying Falun Gong as a form of qigong; of course it's more than that, or different, or whatever, but that's the subject for the main Falun Gong article, not for a single sentence that addresses the issue in passing on this page. We should defer to the simplest and least controversial description. These three or so above are only a drop in the bucket. I stopped searching after these.--Asdfg12345 09:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe add both! "five members of Falun Gong, a banned but popular new religious movement originating from qigong" Or maybe instead of "new religious movement" or "qigong movement" how about just "five members of Falun Gong, a banned but popular practice based on meditation"? --antilivedT | C | G 10:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Why not just "five practitioners of Falun Gong, a banned but popular form of qigong practice..." (I don't know what preceded that, presuming it fits in context. I believe the term "practitioner" is standard diction by now. If we want to find out which is more common ("member," "practitioner," "follower") across various sources, we can, but I think practitioner is the simplest and least disputed. The other terms should be used depending on the source etc., I guess. But let me know if we want to do the source test on "practitioner." Regarding combining them, at the moment I have only one source saying NRM. And I can put my hands on another half dozen good ones that use "qigong practice" or variation thereof. Yes, it's nice to compromise, but if it's compromising away from reliable sources, is that what we're meant to do? I think let's play this with a straight bat. If "members" was more common than "practitioners," I would submit to that, too.--Asdfg12345 10:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- I hate it just so much when we have to descend into political correctness and use certain language/wording because it's simply 'uncontentious'. Our extensive use of the term 'practitioner' is already an appeasement to FLG because they eschew the concept of membership, despite the fact that many many articles I have read use the term 'member'. But of course, you're right that such a discussion doesn't belong here but in the main article. I can see the argument for simplifying it here, for expediency. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 10:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, we shouldn't use "practitioner" as an "appeasement to FLG," but because the term has textual support. I think Falun Gong's self-reference should count for something, but mainly, I suppose it should be RS. My understanding is that often, in any kind of discourse, certain words will become standard to refer to certain people. I thought for Falun Gong that this has come to be the word "practitioner." I just did some quick searches now (for "falun gong practitioner" and "falun gong member") and "member" is far more common on google ordinary search, but "practitioner" far more common on google books and google scholar. Amnesty defers to "practitioner" (192 instances to 6), so do all .gov sites (263 to 136), .gov.au sites 330 to 6, and NYtimes is 91 to 83 for practitioner. It's actually not as clear cut as I thought, but there's a definite trend. However, better sources carry greater weight, like Tong's recent book, which uses "practitioner," (I just did a very non-scientific test, saw three instances and none of "member") and Ownby's 2008 text. I guess those count for relatively more. Anyway, "member" is obviously fine for a bit of variety sometimes and if that source prefers it or (obviously) in quotes. Just my thoughts. I think in the lead though, or in general, maybe "practitioner" is a simple default.--Asdfg12345 13:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
"Falun Gong and self-immolation" -- an original synthesis
This is just about the one section called "Falun Gong and self-immolation", which AnnaInDC removed. This section is a piece of propaganda; in wikipedia it's called a "Synthesis of published material that advances a position". The edict there is to "not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." and "If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources." This section hovers between legitimate commentary and quotes, and synthesis/propaganda in its descriptions. I will write sentence by sentence, referring to the text. I thought it would be easier to present the sentence in italics first, then a starred remark.
Falun Gong stated that there had been no incidents of self-immolation among Falun Gong practitioners in the world before 23 January 2001.
- Neutral statement.
However, the China Association for Cultic Studies published details of 3 instances of Falun Gong followers who they claim committed self-immolation prior to 2001, the earliest one in 1997, and 3 further instances said to have taken place subsequent to the incident in Tiananmen Square.
- Propaganda--making this juxtaposition is not okay. It's not a reliable source to begin with, anyway. facts.org.cn is the CCP's very own attack web site. If you know Chinese, check the virulent original. Want to know more? Try searching "凯风" "610" site:gov.cn. It's a propaganda website which has no credentials to discuss Falun Gong.
Academics such as Chang (1991), Rahn (2001), Lindsey (2001) and Li Cheng (1997) recognised that suicide is a traditional gesture of protest in China;[1] ter Haar (2001) postulated that former Buddhists may have brought with them the "respectable Buddhist tradition of self-immolation as a sacrifice to the Buddha".
- Next it refers to academics who talk about suicide as "a traditional gesture of protest in China" (no mention of Falun Gong?) and ter Haar who postulates that "former Buddhists may have brought with them the "respectable Buddhist tradition of self-immolation as a sacrifice to the Buddha"." -- this is also totally irrelevant. That link is dead now anyway so we can't check, but there's nothing here that indicates any relevance to Falun Gong, so it's all a subtle original synthesis. By referring to a "traditional gesture of protest in China" and "former Buddhists" etc., it kind of implicates Falun Gong without doing so explicitly. A form of original synthesis.
"The Guardian commented that Li Hongzhi's new scripture released on 1 January 2001, Beyond the Limits of Forbearance, had confused his supporters.
- Next paragraph. I know Gittings is an old China hand. This could be attributed better though, and mentioned alongside other pertinent commentaries. These are cherry-picked opinions designed to give an impression, not a full representation of what commentators have said regarding whether it's likely they were practitioners or not.
Matthew Forney in Time magazine believed the message had spread into China via the internet and informal networks of followers, and reached more radical practitioners there.
- Forney in Time; this seems okay, but what it's building to and the context it's placed in make it problematic.
Falun Gong headquarters in New York admitted ten days after the release of the scripture that "certain disciples had some extreme interpretations [and thought] we are going to resort to violence", and asserted that Li's message merely meant time had come to let the truth be known about China's atrocities.
- The "headquarters" "admitted" could be better attributed or ommited, since these aren't the terms used by the entity referred to. I would suggest that in this context, they are words to avoid, or weasely. If they don't add anything (do they?) then why not just say what the Falun Dafa Information Center said, rather than what Falun Gong "headquarters" "admitted"?
Jensen and Weston remarked it was clear from Li Hongzhi's messages that he advocated martyrdom over prudence, and that "if the Chinese authorities lit the fire, Li just as clearly fanned the flames."
- The use of this remark is misleading. The authors were not referring to self-immolation; in that remark they talk about "Li's speeches during the period" and how they are interpreted. They say that the incident itself "remains highly disputed", mention that Falun Gong thinks it a set up, and are inconclusive about whether they were "practitioners" or not ("Whatever the truth about the incident..."). But the way the remark is placed here, it makes it seem like the authors have come to the conclusion that the individuals in the immolation were Falun Gong practitioners. This is a distortion of the source.
David Ownby believes that the brief message was "difficult to interpret": it somewhat resembled a "call to arms" against what Li described as "evil beings who no longer have any human nature or righteous thoughts". Ownby said nobody he talked to had seen it as a "green light" for violent action;[2] "[b]ut a practitioner at the end of his or her rope in China could certainly see [the statements] as an endorsement for martyrdom, and perhaps choose his or her own means to achieve that."
- This is not all Ownby said about it. Using the final remark from Pomfret to give it the flourish of finality violates NPOV, which says that all points of view should be described fairly, and the article not try to lead readers down the garden path of which is true and which isn't. But in this section the readers are introduced to a series of specially chosen quotes, some of which are relevant, others not, to create the impression that the opinion of commentators is that those who apparently immolated themselves were Falun Gong practitioners. The reliable sources which dissent (Porter, Schechter, the remarks in Beyond the Red Wall) are left out, and the section is wrapped in the package of "Falun Gong and self-immolation" which itself violates synthesis. Google that phrase and you'll find it's not a subject of scholarly discussion, but appears only on wikipedia. In all the literature on Falun Gong, this does not appear to be a subject of discussion. All the material included under this section here relates to whether people think the individuals involved were practitioners or not, not how or whether Falun Gong is related to or includes self-immolation.
Suggestion: scrap the section as it is and reintegrate the material that's directly relevant to the matter at hand into a section which explicitly weighs up the question of whether the individuals involved in the event were practitioners or not. Something like "Disputed identity of individuals" or "Speculations on identity" or whatever, something that is neutral and has the breadth needed to be able to give all the opinions available (and there are more than what is just here) on whether the individuals were "practitioners" or not. The current section doesn't cut it, and provides a one-sided, cherry-picked set of quotes and syntheses to conclude that they were practitioners, which is not a reflection of the body of reliable sources available. Further, the section title is a synthesis, and half the first paragraph is propaganda/coatrack combo. For Ownby's view, his book would be the go-to place. He's decidedly inconclusive on the matter.--Asdfg12345 06:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Here's the archived copy of the link from the WaybackMachine. --antilivedT | C | G 07:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. What Haar wrote was not only non-synthetic, it was highly relevant and centred on his work on the Falun Gong. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 07:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- This does not seem to be a discussion, but mudslinging dressed up as rational argument. There are some pretty stiff allegations being rolled out to discredit the contents of this article, including a lot which is directly out of the Falun Gong playbook but using WP's own policies and guidelines. This comes as no surprise, as I have become used to seeing these sort of tactics in Falun Gong-related articles. I'm just surprised it hasn't come along sooner. I'm not saying the article couldn't be more NPOV, but the changes inserted by AnnaInDC were clearly from the blinkered 'Falun Gong is Good and we can believe everything they say but we can't trust anything which emanates from the Propaganda Department' school of thought - this is testified to in the comments she placed in this talk page. I may have the highest edit count here, but the coherence of the text with the underlying sources was scrutinised by several editors highly skilled in NPOV matters. If this were a sincere discussion, I would oblige. I won't do it today, but I will take a look at the sources in the next few days. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 07:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- And now I see that the section has been completely removed - going a lot further than even what asdfg suggested to rework the material into the rest of the article. This is all very sinister indeed. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 07:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, super sinister. I think the devil himself might be behind it. I do not mean to have slung mud. That's not what I was trying to do. I looked at each sentence there and tried to refer to policy in pointing out where problems were. I don't think it's controversial to change the title of the section, or include all such relevant information elsewhere, along with a fuller account of the difference views. And by "fuller account of the different views" I do mean, like, all the different views (per RS). I read the ter Haar thing, it adds a useful perspective. Unfortunately we only get a soundbite of it that fits into the master narrative. That won't do. Someone like that is a good source, and should get more play for their piece of insight to develop a bit more. Basically, all I suggest is that things be unwound a bit, and the discussion (on the page) opened up. I mean that the question of whether they were Falun Gong practitioners or not, as it is addressed in the form of speculation/opinion by reliable sources (I'm not talking about Falun Gong video deconstruction or whatever), is an interesting and relevant part of this whole debate. The section that deals with this needs to be 1) longer and make better use of the reliable sources and points of view available; 2) not use an originally synthesised title like "Falun Gong and self-immolation" (search that, see what you find); 3) give more space for the themes to unfold and be explored, showing different sides (and a number of points of view are conspicuously missing from this analysis, such as that of Porter and Schechter) while concluding none, and giving the reader something they can make up their own minds about, rather than a pre-wrapped package. My analysis of those sentences is not meant to be an attack on you. I don't know why it passed NPOV, I won't speculate. I just pointed out the problems I saw when reading that section.--Asdfg12345 09:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, I noticed this section basically repeated some of the same information in the "The dispute" section above (that's a good name for it!). This is my suggestion for the best way to resolve this: move what was not in "The dispute" up there and integrate it; purge the repetition; drop the original syntheses and coatracking (that is, remarks not explicitly mentioning Falun Gong, for starters); group the arguments by theme; give the big names more space to expound; bring in some more diverse viewpoints (I can think of four already: Porter, Schechter, the WSJ editorial called like "what is Falun Gong is a cult?" and Beyond the Red Wall. I'll paste three of those below); and call it a day. This is just a thought, I'm sure it's not perfect, but I think it avoids the danger of making a synthesis, repeating arguments, and presenting a one-sided view. Also, I believe all or at least most of the remarks, snide or otherwise, about the scripture, or whatever else, be put here, too, and given a chance to be aired. Including Ostergaard's "gift" remark later on seems a bit cheap. Those sort of comments need to stand up to scrutiny. (Look how Ownby presents the scripture, for example. He puts it in the section in his book before the one about the self-immolation, and makes clear that "the form taken by such apparent militancy, beginning later in the spring of 2001, was that of sitting in a meditative posture and "emitting righteous thoughts." He does not link the scripture with the immolation, and that is worth a lot. There should surely be a diversity of views, but wikipedia requires that editors take their cues from the best sources, and frame things in a way that reflects the most reliable sources; when there is a dispute about the interpretation of the scripture, I think all the disputes should be grouped, and aired in accordance with their prominence. Including an unusual or fringe interpretation of it outside the context of mainstream interpretations, for example, doesn't seem quite on point.) Just some extra thoughts. I am not trying to pick fights.--Asdfg12345 10:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Edits by 68.32.165.254
Please stop your attempt to introduce undue weight into the article. You claim the article relies on out-of-date information, yet you insist on repeated insertion of Pan's article as a citation - incidentally already cited in the article. FYI - which from dates from February 2001. Pan's article is but one of many used to achieve the balance of the current article which has been thoroughly reviewed and has been made a Featured article. If you have any fresh non-Falun Gong sources not already cited which you wish to cite, please discuss these here. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- I am sorry,68.32.165.254 is me. It's not clear why the computer is adding an IP address and not my account name.
AnnaInDC (talk) 15:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Warning, AnnaInDC, you've been persistently re-inserting your edit 4 times over the time period from 2010-02-15T15:41:19 until now. You have already violated WP:3RR which means you could be banned from editing for some time. Please refrain from edit-warring and talk before you act. Thank you. --antilivedT | C | G 07:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)