BanyanClimber (talk | contribs) →WP:SEAOFBLUE: no personal attacks please Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit |
BladeJogger2049 (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 159: | Line 159: | ||
Jonmaxras. I do not know which literature course you took, but "WWII genocide" does NOT place any less emphasis on the genocide aspect of the Holocaust. Read the sentence to yourself and you'll see that the way the sentence flows means that the emphasis is naturally placed on "genocide" and not on "WWII". The only one trivialising anything is yourself, and you appear confused – the Holocaust was very much a WWII event, or an event which links to WWII. Your proposed sentence structure lends one to infer that this genocide should be categorised the same as any other genocides. It should not. There has been, and never will be, any other genocide quite like the Holocaust. This was THE WWII genocide of the European Jews. (I'd even so far so as to use a capital G in "genocide", but I understand if others find that petty. [[User:Durdyfiv1|Durdyfiv1]] ([[User talk:Durdyfiv1|talk]]) 22:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
Jonmaxras. I do not know which literature course you took, but "WWII genocide" does NOT place any less emphasis on the genocide aspect of the Holocaust. Read the sentence to yourself and you'll see that the way the sentence flows means that the emphasis is naturally placed on "genocide" and not on "WWII". The only one trivialising anything is yourself, and you appear confused – the Holocaust was very much a WWII event, or an event which links to WWII. Your proposed sentence structure lends one to infer that this genocide should be categorised the same as any other genocides. It should not. There has been, and never will be, any other genocide quite like the Holocaust. This was THE WWII genocide of the European Jews. (I'd even so far so as to use a capital G in "genocide", but I understand if others find that petty. [[User:Durdyfiv1|Durdyfiv1]] ([[User talk:Durdyfiv1|talk]]) 22:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
||
:{{ping|Durdyfiv1}} And I do not know who raised you but I'm sure they would have hoped you'd be kinder to people than you've been in this thread. If you want to try responding again [[WP:PA|without insulting my intention or intelligence]], then go ahead. Also, the word 'genocide' is not a proper noun, which is why it's not capitalized. [[User:Jonmaxras|Jonmaxras]] ([[User talk:Jonmaxras|talk]]) 01:00, 23 January 2021 (UTC) |
|||
Watchlonly {{rpa}} in claiming that there have been other genocides perpetrated against Jews. Please can he explain to the other readers why none of the other events have thus far been labelled a genocide? And by claiming "the" shouldn't be used, one could argue that he oddly believes those who perished in the Holocaust shouldn't be considered united in their collective suffering. [[User:Durdyfiv1|Durdyfiv1]] ([[User talk:Durdyfiv1|talk]]) 23:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
Watchlonly {{rpa}} in claiming that there have been other genocides perpetrated against Jews. Please can he explain to the other readers why none of the other events have thus far been labelled a genocide? And by claiming "the" shouldn't be used, one could argue that he oddly believes those who perished in the Holocaust shouldn't be considered united in their collective suffering. [[User:Durdyfiv1|Durdyfiv1]] ([[User talk:Durdyfiv1|talk]]) 23:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
||
Revision as of 01:01, 23 January 2021
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Holocaust was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 January 2021
In this section, please add the link for Children in the Holocaust next to "Jewish population by country" in the "See also" at the beginning. Like this:
In this section, please add "History of the Jews during World War II" to the list of "Main articles", like this:
Finally, in this section, please add a link to Holocaust survivors inside text where it says "Jewish survivors", like this:
....The government of Israel requested $1.5 billion from the Federal Republic of Germany in March 1951 to finance the rehabilitation of 500,000 Jewish survivors...
Thanks--Watchlonly (talk) 09:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- Done. François Robere (talk) 10:58, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
WP:SEAOFBLUE
What is the problem with this edit? It doesn't change the meaning of sentence in any way, and it avoids a WP:SEAOFBLUE of different links.--Watchlonly (talk) 20:34, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for opening a discussion about the first sentence. The difference is this:
- Current:
- The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews.
- Proposed:
- The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the genocide of European Jews during World War II.
- Both have lots of blue links, so that isn't a reason to change it; too much blue is a problem in general with leads. Apart from that, the current version is tighter, snappier, and it ends with (and therefore emphasizes) the European Jews. It also says "the" Jews, not Jews. In addition, the proposed version slightly gives the impression that there were other genocides of Jews. SarahSV (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know how is that relevant, but of course there were other genocides of Jews. Take a look at Genocides in history: Bar Kokhba revolt, Khmelnytsky Uprising, Pogroms during the Russian civil war.--Watchlonly (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Watchlonly, I support your proposed change here. The sea of blue created by placing the links World War II and genocide directly next to each other in the lead has confused me on multiple occasions, and I think "genocide... during World War II" is easier to understand than "World War II genocide" and flows better. SlimVirgin, the proposed wording could be changed to "the genocide of the European Jews," right? I agree with you that it's an important distinction to make. warmly, ezlev. talk 22:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- What's the difference between simply "European Jews" and "the European Jews"? It doesn't change the meaning and avoids repeating the word "the" in the same sentence several times.--Watchlonly (talk) 22:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ezlev, the current version is better writing. It's tighter, smoother, the cadence works, and the resolution is appropriate for the topic. The differences may seem slight but read it out loud. Imagine it's the first sentence of an academic lecture you're delivering about the Holocaust. Current version first, followed by the proposed:
- Watchlonly, I support your proposed change here. The sea of blue created by placing the links World War II and genocide directly next to each other in the lead has confused me on multiple occasions, and I think "genocide... during World War II" is easier to understand than "World War II genocide" and flows better. SlimVirgin, the proposed wording could be changed to "the genocide of the European Jews," right? I agree with you that it's an important distinction to make. warmly, ezlev. talk 22:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know how is that relevant, but of course there were other genocides of Jews. Take a look at Genocides in history: Bar Kokhba revolt, Khmelnytsky Uprising, Pogroms during the Russian civil war.--Watchlonly (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- The Holocaust was the World War II genocide of the European Jews.
- The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II.
- SarahSV (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- I literally can't see the difference. It means exactly the same, except that the first version makes a "sea of blue" with several different links.--Watchlonly (talk) 23:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, it could just be a dialect difference between you and me, but I still think the proposed version is smoother and more accurate. The Holocaust wasn't a "World War II genocide," it was a genocide which occurred during World War II - I would be in favor of the wording change for that reason even if WatchIonly wasn't right about the MOS:SEAOFBLUE guideline, which they are. It states that placing two wikilinks directly next to each other should be avoided, a goal which the proposed change accomplishes. With all that being said, if we can't reach consensus I think an RfC might be in order here. warmly, ezlev. talk 00:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- "The Holocaust wasn't a 'World War II genocide'". Yes, it was. Genocide is the attempt to wipe out an ethnicity. It was arguably the only genocide of the war (possibly the Roma too, although Nazi attitudes to the Roma differed). And it was directly tied to the causes of the war, the reason for the war in the first place. It wasn't simply "a genocide" that took place during the war. SarahSV (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, I agree with most of what you're saying there, but I think my point stands. After thinking about it more, I think this is mostly a grammar and style disagreement - I'm not sure of the proper terminology to describe it, but I personally prefer to place a definitional descriptor (like "genocide" in this case) before a contextual descriptor (like "World War II"). One example that comes to mind, although it might not be exactly comparable, is that I would describe the United States presidential debates as "debates (definitional) during a US election (contextual)" rather than "US election debates," although I think both are technically correct. Since my argument doesn't go beyond personal preference combined with a non-binding style guideline, though, I'm willing to drop it. Thanks for all the great work you do on Wikipedia. warmly, ezlev. talk 02:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- "The Holocaust wasn't a 'World War II genocide'". Yes, it was. Genocide is the attempt to wipe out an ethnicity. It was arguably the only genocide of the war (possibly the Roma too, although Nazi attitudes to the Roma differed). And it was directly tied to the causes of the war, the reason for the war in the first place. It wasn't simply "a genocide" that took place during the war. SarahSV (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, it could just be a dialect difference between you and me, but I still think the proposed version is smoother and more accurate. The Holocaust wasn't a "World War II genocide," it was a genocide which occurred during World War II - I would be in favor of the wording change for that reason even if WatchIonly wasn't right about the MOS:SEAOFBLUE guideline, which they are. It states that placing two wikilinks directly next to each other should be avoided, a goal which the proposed change accomplishes. With all that being said, if we can't reach consensus I think an RfC might be in order here. warmly, ezlev. talk 00:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- I literally can't see the difference. It means exactly the same, except that the first version makes a "sea of blue" with several different links.--Watchlonly (talk) 23:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- SarahSV (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Watchlonly: It's poor style to reinstate the change when the participants of the discussion haven't reached a consensus yet. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- FWIW I prefer the current: The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews...Modernist (talk) 18:36, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that the current version is ambiguous. It is not clear whether 'World War II' is intended to communicate the time period, a relevant socio-political context or a causal link. Once it has been decided what the intended communication is, a better unambiguous phrasing can follow. Jontel (talk) 14:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Why is that a problem? It communicates all three of those things, in just that order. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 17:34, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- We should ask ourselves, what is the purpose of the adjective? Presumably, it should be to define the subject of the article by distinguishing between this genocide of European Jews and other ones e.g. pogroms in Russia. Much of the detail to enable a definition is in the succeeding sentence, so there is unnecessary repetition (WWII/ occupied, six million/ occupied, genocide/ murder, genocide/ systematic, Jews/ Jewish mentioned three times, Europe mentioned three times). Combining the two sentences would enable one to say, more succinctly e.g.: 'The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah,[a] was a genocide between 1941 and 1945 by Nazi Germany and its collaborators, resulting in the deaths of some six million, or two in three, European Jews. Jontel (talk) 07:44, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Why is that a problem? It communicates all three of those things, in just that order. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 17:34, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that the current version is ambiguous. It is not clear whether 'World War II' is intended to communicate the time period, a relevant socio-political context or a causal link. Once it has been decided what the intended communication is, a better unambiguous phrasing can follow. Jontel (talk) 14:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Comment I much prefer the proposed
The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the genocide of European Jews during World War II.
It puts emphasis on the genocide and the victims (which is what this article is about), not the war. The genocide was an event that took place during WWII. It was not a WWII event, such as the Pacific Theatre or the Invasion of Poland. I feel like mentioning the war before even defining what the Holocaust is in the first sentence results in an enormous amount of undue weight, and can potentially be seen as trivializing both events. The proposal also breaks up the sea of blue, which is small but nice for readability. Jonmaxras (talk) 20:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
I have a slight preference for watchlonly's version. It isn't the most compressed sentence, but it feels simpler (and I like that). I also wouldn't include that "the" before European Jews. - Daveout
(talk) 20:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Agree with @Daveout:, removing "the" would be an improvement. Jonmaxras (talk) 20:48, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
THERE WAS PREVIOUS CONCENSUS ON A PREVIOUS TALK PAGE. WHY HAS THIS PAGE NOW BEEN DELETED? Durdyfiv1 (talk) 22:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Jonmaxras. I do not know which literature course you took, but "WWII genocide" does NOT place any less emphasis on the genocide aspect of the Holocaust. Read the sentence to yourself and you'll see that the way the sentence flows means that the emphasis is naturally placed on "genocide" and not on "WWII". The only one trivialising anything is yourself, and you appear confused – the Holocaust was very much a WWII event, or an event which links to WWII. Your proposed sentence structure lends one to infer that this genocide should be categorised the same as any other genocides. It should not. There has been, and never will be, any other genocide quite like the Holocaust. This was THE WWII genocide of the European Jews. (I'd even so far so as to use a capital G in "genocide", but I understand if others find that petty. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Durdyfiv1: And I do not know who raised you but I'm sure they would have hoped you'd be kinder to people than you've been in this thread. If you want to try responding again without insulting my intention or intelligence, then go ahead. Also, the word 'genocide' is not a proper noun, which is why it's not capitalized. Jonmaxras (talk) 01:00, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Watchlonly (Personal attack removed) in claiming that there have been other genocides perpetrated against Jews. Please can he explain to the other readers why none of the other events have thus far been labelled a genocide? And by claiming "the" shouldn't be used, one could argue that he oddly believes those who perished in the Holocaust shouldn't be considered united in their collective suffering. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 23:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Handicapped
Can we change handicapped to disabled? Disabled people, myself included, find it offensive Gracey72 (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the help page).