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:::Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers isn't the official name of the restaurant chain. Wendy's ® is [http://www.wendys-invest.com/wendys.php]. That would be like naming Harvard University, "Harvard University, Veritas" just because there are words in the logo. Honestly, using the official name is more relevant in an encyclopedia that exists to discuss actual, factual topics, instead of generic stylized listings.--[[User:Gopple|Gopple]] 07:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
:::Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers isn't the official name of the restaurant chain. Wendy's ® is [http://www.wendys-invest.com/wendys.php]. That would be like naming Harvard University, "Harvard University, Veritas" just because there are words in the logo. Honestly, using the official name is more relevant in an encyclopedia that exists to discuss actual, factual topics, instead of generic stylized listings.--[[User:Gopple|Gopple]] 07:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' moving just to remove "the" from title is unnecessary [[User:Trödel|Trödel]]•<font color="#F0F">[[User_talk:Trödel|talk]]</font> 12:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
* '''Oppose''' moving just to remove "the" from title is unnecessary [[User:Trödel|Trödel]]•<font color="#F0F">[[User_talk:Trödel|talk]]</font> 12:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nomination, to make it in line with other universities and general usage. '''Note also''' that the incompetents making the move and all subsequent editors have so far failed to fix the category indexing by including the appropriate sort key, without "The". [[User:Gene Nygaard|Gene Nygaard]] 12:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 12:12, 15 March 2006
This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.
Why isn't the article titled "The George Washington University" with George Washington University being a redirect to it? Sycocowz 22:16, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
- I was about to accuse you of being a student but seems a bit early, but you are from the DC area... :) I figured only people who attended would know how rabidly they love the "The".
- My dad worked there for a long time. :) Sycocowz 00:37, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
- I was about to move it, but started pondering... apart from The Pentagon, how many articles of things like this (a university or institution) have "The" in the name? Or maybe GWU is unique BECAUSE it has the The, and nothing else does.
- Okay, never mind - Catholic U is at "The Catholic University of America" so that's a winner. I'll move it, thanks. :) --Golbez 22:30, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty dubious about the the being here. Also about the the in Catholic...I am also from the DC area, and my dad went to law school there, and I'd never heard of any special mania for the the until just now. And, as noted, we tend not to include "The" in article titles except a) for disambiguation and b) in titles of works. This doesn't seem to apply in either case. john k 06:40, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- "The" in the name was somewhat of a running joke when I was there (class of 2000), the school president went kind of rabid with it. --Golbez 07:37, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
The George Washington University → George Washington University OLD DEBATE
Take a look at the article's what links here. Neutralitytalk 05:40, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Support - "The definite article should not be used for universities, even if the the official name of the university uses the definite article". -- Netoholic @ 05:45, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)
- Oppose. Look at their website. All references – when an abbreviation is not offered – include the 'The'. Noisy | Talk 10:28, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
- I take issue with referencing Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name) and its six-week history, created and exclusively edited by (with one exception) a single user. The George Washington University is consistent in using the (capitalized) definite article when referring to itself, and I can't help but think that this was put forth in response to the article's citation in the Mormon debate lower on this page, but none of these factors leads me to support one title over another at this time. ADH (t&m) 10:59, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
- I also take issue with quoting this as "policy" - this all seems to be the work of one person. Jooler 11:05, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support. The link above (as Neutrality originally posted, and then curiously broke two minutes later) is quite informative: Wikipedia almost always links to George Washington University, not The George Washington University. My remarks below on official names hold: these organizations should not be able to force us to abandon common usage. I recognize that an article title beginning in ‘The’ does not equate to the preposterous capitalization of ‘the’ in the middle of a sentence, but it does encourage the practice. Like ADH, I reject these style guidelines, as they too are the product of individual editors (or, in this case, an individual editor); but I also reject reference to the organization’s own publications as definitive, and Lowellian’s proposal is a good guideline. Technically all universities named ‘University of X’ are ‘The University of X’, but we would not title the articles so. If — if — common usage supports it, we can use ‘the’ before the name in the text of the article, provided that it is only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence. Otherwise, we are allowing a private organization with a conflict of interest to dictate how we describe it. The insistence on ‘The’ by GW, OSU, and LDS is marketing and vanity. That I wholly reject. — Ford 13:33, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)
- Support. No one other than the university and lackeys commonly refer to it with the "The". There are dozens of other universities whose official names and logos include the The, and yet most of the titles do not include the The and most are not commonly referred to as such. This isn't even about "officialness" it's a matter of most commonly used name. I'd have a LOT more sympathy for the LDS change if it's proponents dropped the "officialness" argument and focused on demonstrating that it is commonly known and referred to with the The in its name. older≠wiser 17:11, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose - why do people have a problem with 'the definite articile'. Wikipedia isn't organised alphabetically, so it makes no odds. Jooler 18:29, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Definitely. Proteus (Talk) 18:42, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose - it struck me as well that this only popped up after it was cited in the LDS debate. Many universities use "the" as part of their name (and are even listed under "T" in the phone book). The address for the University of Aberdeen was (and I'm guessing still is) actually The University, Aberdeen, U.K." Guettarda 01:59, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose - Trodel 03:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC) - Changing a name to keep it from being quoted as precedent is not good policy - plus over 500 links to change - what a hassle. I don't understand why there is such opposition to naming articles according to the official name. That is the way I read the policy (quoted in entirety here (save new reference mentioned above):
- Avoid the definite article ("the") and the indefinite article ("a"/"an") at the beginning of the page name.
- Convention: Except in titles of works (The Old Man and the Sea, "The Lady or the Tiger?", A Clockwork Orange) or in official names (The Hague), avoid the definite ("the") and indefinite ("a"/"an") articles at the beginning of a page name. This applies even if the subject of the page is usually preceded by the definite article "the" in speech or writing: Thus, for example, White House is preferred over The White House and Middle East is preferred over The Middle East.
- Um, please read on that same page, where it discusses universities specifically as an exception. -- Netoholic @ 04:16, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)
- I again take issue with quoting this as "policy" - this all seems to be the work of one person and indeed that specific part of the policy was arbitrarily changed very recently. Look at the talk page. - Jooler 11:05, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- That standard seems to have worked well for a long time, and had good support before its addition. If you want to change that standard, in a broad sense, then bring it up on the talk page. Until a change to that standard has been accepted by consensus, it is not reasonable to apply it selectively and oppose movement of this article. When a standard has n% support, you do not apply it to only n% of articles. -- Netoholic @ 18:04, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)
- Um, please read on that same page, where it discusses universities specifically as an exception. -- Netoholic @ 04:16, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)
- And in response to the claim of “over 500 links to change”, the number of pages (not counting this one) linking ultimately to this article is one hundred sixty-one, by my count, of which only six are pages linking directly to The George Washington University. One hundred forty-seven are pages linking first to George Washington University and then being redirected. Four link first to GWU or Columbian College and are redirected; and four are the redirects themselves.
— Ford 04:26, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC) - Support. Consistency is good and the policy is reasonable, whoever wrote it. I probably wouldn't even think of linking to this with a "the" but just assume an article was missing if the link turned out to be red. / Tupsharru 12:26, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. Google news search shows that midsentence capitalization of "The" in the name is quite common (although not consistant). They appear unusually zealous about it as an official name. Cool Hand Luke 01:24, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support Initial "The" should only be there in exceptional circumstances. Eclecticology 18:38, 2005 Jan 21 (UTC)
- Support As I noted above, I'm from Washington and my father went to law school at GW, and I'd never heard of it as "The George Washington University" until this page. They do seem to be strangely rabid about it, but that just means we should bold "the" at the beginning of the article, not have the article be here. john k 19:22, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Otherwise we get into a tiring debate about The George Washington University or the George Washington University. Why is it never TGWU? (That was me Audiovideo on 00:53, 28 Feb 2005 )
- Oppose - As a grad student at The George Washington University, I assure you that everyone, when not calling it "GW", uses the "The" everytime. MicahMN | Talk 13:54, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose - Definitely with the "the"...I added the Alma Mater but didn't mention this: as an inside joke, the school's pep band (which plays the song at the end of every home game) strongly accents the "thee" in the last line as indirect emphasis for the "The" in the school's name. It's The George Washington University. TJ0513 12:12, 2005 Oct 24 (UTC)
DO NOT ADD ANY MORE VOTES HERE, ADD THEM BELOW
Tuition
I noticed somebody (172.155.230.98) posted a note about GW's tuition being the second-most expensive undergraduate tuition ($36,400 this year) in the US (which is true, it is second only to Landmark College ($37,738)) [1]. This edit was reverted by Bhadani - why? Maybe it wasn't placed appropriately, but I'm surprised this information wasn't already mentioned in the article and think it should be. If there's anything GW should be known for (besides its law school), it's its extremely high tuition. -VJ 05:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- VJ, Would you like to post an excerpt from the relevant article in the Chronicle? Not all of us have subscriber access. ALC Washington 15:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry - you can find the tuition listings for GW here - the chronicle figures are for students entering this year as full-time undergrads - while tuition for past and older continuing students fluctuates (i.e. raises) from year to year, the figures for freshmen are fixed so that they will retain the same yearly tuition as long as they remain full-time students at GW (up to 10 semesters). The list from the chronicle is reproduced here in a comment, and I'll repost it here for good measure:
1-year increase | ||
Landmark | $37,738 | 2.7% |
George Washington U. | $36,400 | 7.0% |
U of Richmond | $34,850 | 31.4% |
Sarah Lawrence | $34,042 | 5.0% |
Kenyon | $33,930 | 5.5% |
Vassar | $33,800 | 7.8% |
Trinity | $33,630 | 5.3% |
Bennington | $33,570 | 8.0% |
Simon's Rock College of Bard | $33,364 | 7.0% |
Hamilton (NY) | $33,350 | 5.2% |
- Figures represent tuition and required fees for first-time, full-time undergrads.
-VJ 23:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Advice: on-campus housing
If you're going to be paying all that money to go to GWU, you might as well take advantage of their facilities. GW’s dorms are definitely some of the cushiest in the country—the majority of them are converted apartment buildings or hotels, or recently-built facilities. Here's some advice from current students for incoming freshman...
About half of the freshman class will live in Thurston Hall, GW’s largest dorm. Because of its reputation as a “sexually active party dorm,” most students who live in Thurston either love it or hate it, with the majority loving every minute.
"HOVA is really nice because it’s an old Howard Johnson. The rooms were absolutely beautiful—you’re living in total luxury."
“I lived in Mitchell Hall by a fluke freshman year. It’s the only all-single hall on campus, but it’s not at all antisocial.
from College Prowler's campus guidebook; George Washington University: Off the Record
- What's the point of this section? Anyway, living on campus sucks, the university patrols and is crazy about busting kids for anything they can, especially alcohol. Awiseman 21:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't have that problem, but I was in Mitchell in 98-00, and for the last year it was a dry dorm. I lived off campus the first two years, so I never experienced the glory/horror of Thurston. --Golbez 12:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Student government presidents?
Does anyone really think a list of student body presidents belongs on this page? I feel fairly strongly that it should be deleted. ALC Washington 20:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, and I recenly deleted a similar list on the Old Dominion University page. Unless the people listed or list itself has some sort of encyclopedic significance it should be deleted. I have no problem with the paragraph preceeding it. I'm open to be convinced otherwise on this issue, but remember, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I'm going to remove the list for now. Masonpatriot 21:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Jeffrey J. Federico
The link to Jeffrey J. Federico has been removed for its irrelevance. Posting a hack as a "Notable Alumnus" does disservice to the actual Notable Alumni.
Clubs
I think we should trim or delete the sections about the College Dems and IAS. I'm sure there are lots of great clubs at GW, but this isn't an advertising page. What do you all think? Awiseman 18:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agree. A short sentence for each will suffice. ALC Washington 10:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Can we please, please move this?
I understand, I really do, that the administration of the George Washington University likes, for whatever, reason, to call it that. But we are most certainly not obligated to slavishly follow the dictates of the subject of an article. The press pretty much universally does not use the "the" (see this Google News search, for instance). Furthermore, there is not a single other university located with the article, even when the article is commonly used. For instance, we do not have The University of Virginia, even though this is how the school would normally be referred to in a sentence. That is to say, one would say "Sabato is a professor at the University of Virginia," but also "Smith is a professor at George Washington University." It is beyond pretentious to include "the" in the article title. john k 21:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Notice also that a search for The George Washington University yields many results which refer to things like "the George Washington University School of Law," or else generally come from either small news sources or press releases. And there are 237 hits for "the George Washington University" as compared to 2460 hits for "George Washington University" without "the". john k 22:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Also note Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)#Universities. During the previous debate, this convention was quite new, and was generally not seen as authoritative. However, at this point, the advice not to use direct articles in names of universities has stood for about a year and a half, without serious disagreement. Furthermore, articles on other universities with the definite article as an official part of their names, are pretty much always not located with the direct article. We have Ohio State University, not The Ohio State University. Once again, it is pretentious and absurd to leave the article at its current location. john k 22:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Requested move
The George Washington University → George Washington University – see above.
- Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
- Support, see above. john k 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose, Why not be as precise as possible? Ddye 22:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- What is not precise about "George Washington University"? It clearly indicates what university is meant. john k 23:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - GW Law requires its students to write "The George Washington University" on their resumes. That's the name of the school. Without a doubt. I'm going to propose adding 'The' to the The Ohio State University right now, too. The anti-article jihad needs to be reigned in. --Gopple 22:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Nobody is arguing about what GW's official name is. Wikipedia does not, however, have a "Use official names" policy. We use common names, and the university is generally referred to sans article. john k 23:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support GWU law (whatever that is) is not binding on Wikipedia. Many other universities have similar breast-thumping rules about their names that are disregarded for article names here, such as The Ohio State University, The Pennsylvania State University. older ≠ wiser 23:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support text-book case of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name). -- Netoholic @ 00:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support. As noted above, a textbook case of the Wikipedia naming convention that states, "If the definite or indefinite article article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not include it at the beginning of the page name." AjaxSmack 02:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. The school is quite clearly referred to as "The George Washington University." The hospital, too, is referred to as "The George Washington University Hospital." Perhaps it's pedantic or anal, but that is what the school uses to refer to itself, in all of its literature, buildings, etc. I actually live here, and spend a lot of time at GW. ... aa:talk 04:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
AbstainSupport - as the asshole who moved this originally,I will simply sit back and watch.Why the hell not. :) --Golbez 04:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)- Support Guettarda 06:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC) - to quote what Netoholic referenced:
- The definite article should not be used for universities, even if the official name of the university uses the definite article, as indicated on the website links below.
- That "convention" is not a consensus opinion. Referring to the arbitrary rule instituted by Lowellian is no more persuasive than if I carved out an exception for The George Washington University and posted on that page. Note that the main rule (and the logic in the entire "convention" article besides Lowellian's arbitrary university exception) requires the use of "The" when groups use it in their official materials (e.g. The Citadel, The Nature Conservancy). My point is that the "naming convention" for Universities, as invented by Lowellian, is arbitrary and out of sync with the rest of the convention. The title should be the official name of the university. If I might point out, the resistance appears to be related to certain people feeling that "The" is too pretentious - that view is POV and irrelevant to the discussion. --Gopple 07:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- The definite article should not be used for universities, even if the official name of the university uses the definite article, as indicated on the website links below.
- Oppose - part of the name. Lowellian is an evangelist when it comes to the removal of the definite article and has in the past suggested removing it from articles like The Who and The Beatles. Jooler 07:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't think the arguments have changed from last time, and neither has my opinion. I think that we should respect the organization's wish to identify itself as it wants, and not force our opinion of what 'common usage' is. In trying to define common usage of a phrase, aren't we taking a 'point of view'? Noisy | Talk 09:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Of course we're taking a point of view — the neutral point of view. ("As the name suggests the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.") Proteus (Talk) 10:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support. Proteus (Talk) 10:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Discussion
- Add any additional comments
- See above for my thoughts on this. john k 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- And please, do actually read my comments, and see also Wikipedia:Use_common_names#Examples. Why is The George Washington University any more acceptable than having Bill Clinton's article at William Jefferson Clinton would be? john k 23:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- I've notified everyone (I think) who contributed to the previous vote that I've started a new one. john k 23:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- The article should be named after what the university calls itself. We don't have Madonna's article at Madonna Ciccone. For that matter, we don't have McDonalds at The McDonalds Restaurant. We name articles after what the subject is named. GW could not be any more clearly The GW University. I would suggest that most of you voting here find out whether the article should be named after the university, regardless of whether you think it's correct. ... aa:talk 04:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- The standard for Wikipedia articles it not "what something calls itself" but how it is mostly commonly known, as the google news search demonstrates. Beyond this, the basic policy with use of "the" in titles is that it is only included if, when included in a sentence, it would be capitalized. I am quite dubious that one would refer to The George Washington University, rather than the George Washington University, or simply George Washington University, which is the name used in the vast majority of press reports. Current naming policy demands that we remove "the" from the title of this article. BTW, why is our article at Wendy's rather than Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers? The later is the name featured on the logo, and so forth. john k 05:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Google eliminates the word "the" from their searches.
- The standard for Wikipedia articles it not "what something calls itself" but how it is mostly commonly known, as the google news search demonstrates. Beyond this, the basic policy with use of "the" in titles is that it is only included if, when included in a sentence, it would be capitalized. I am quite dubious that one would refer to The George Washington University, rather than the George Washington University, or simply George Washington University, which is the name used in the vast majority of press reports. Current naming policy demands that we remove "the" from the title of this article. BTW, why is our article at Wendy's rather than Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers? The later is the name featured on the logo, and so forth. john k 05:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
... aa:talk 06:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers isn't the official name of the restaurant chain. Wendy's ® is [2]. That would be like naming Harvard University, "Harvard University, Veritas" just because there are words in the logo. Honestly, using the official name is more relevant in an encyclopedia that exists to discuss actual, factual topics, instead of generic stylized listings.--Gopple 07:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose moving just to remove "the" from title is unnecessary Trödel•talk 12:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support per nomination, to make it in line with other universities and general usage. Note also that the incompetents making the move and all subsequent editors have so far failed to fix the category indexing by including the appropriate sort key, without "The". Gene Nygaard 12:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)