Musical Linguist (talk | contribs) →Life Prolonging Procedures: Appeal to FuelWagon |
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The crap about "fighting like hell" assumes Terri was conscious and aware, it's out. The crap about Adamson is comparing apples to oranges. It compares a consciously aware person with someone who was PVS. It's a nice tearjerker argument for the conspiracy theorists, but it doesn't belong in a wikipedia article. If you want to put it on your personal blog, go for it. This is turning into nothing but emotional arguments. and it all needs to get cut. [[User:FuelWagon|FuelWagon]] 16:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
The crap about "fighting like hell" assumes Terri was conscious and aware, it's out. The crap about Adamson is comparing apples to oranges. It compares a consciously aware person with someone who was PVS. It's a nice tearjerker argument for the conspiracy theorists, but it doesn't belong in a wikipedia article. If you want to put it on your personal blog, go for it. This is turning into nothing but emotional arguments. and it all needs to get cut. [[User:FuelWagon|FuelWagon]] 16:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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FuelWagon, could I request that you please stop your foul language and your abusive tone. You are giving Wikipedia a very bad reputation. Wikipedia policy asks for courtesy. You seem to violate it on a regular basis. Other people seem to be able to revert edits and to discuss disagreements without being so aggressive and insulting. Ever since I joined Wikipedia, I have been struck by the hostility, aggressiveness, and sometimes revoltingness of many of your contributions. Leaving aside some of your disgustingly graphic mentions of body parts, I have to say that I consider your edits with phrases like "Listen you little punk", "Listen jerk", "Listen you moron", "You're and idiot" to be completely contrary to Wikipedia policy on [[Wikipedia:Civility|Civility]] and [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette|Wikiquette]]. The Terri Schiavo subject is a very controversial one. We need to be able to keep calm in order to work together. I am seriously requesting that you try to change your behaviour. [[User:Ann Heneghan|Ann Heneghan]] 17:27, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:27, 17 June 2005
Archives
- Archive 1: bit-by-bit changes
- Archive 2: Michael estranged? Greer's affiliations
- Archive 3: POV, Michael as cause?, external links
- Archive 4: Baden's assessment, Euthanasia vs Right-to-die, POV, George Greer, why remove tube, Catholic-influenced decision?, condition wording, open adultery statute, $10M offer, feeling pain, potential abuse, first names, external link quality
- Archive 5: NCDave conduct, link cleanup, biography request, S686 text, Sun Hudson, Ms./Mrs.
- Archive 6: court decisions, legal implications, family members' character, wording of condition, pundits, S686 vote, Iraq, Sun Hudson
- Archive 7: Ms. or Mrs., photo usage, initial collapse, insurance, feeding tube, pronunciation, legal costs
- Archive 8: cause of collapse, Larry King transcript, Hammesfahr's credentials, Michael's role, nurse's affidavit, the Vatican, page protection
- Archive 9: photo inclusion, alleged GOP memo, mentioning the money, bulimia as cause, pro-life/anti-abortion, role of the church
- Archive 10: feeling pain, cleanup of additions, proposed addition of Lieberman analysis and vocalizations
- Archive 11: poll on terminology ("pro-life" or other), including public opinion, wording on Mr. Schiavo's role, overlinking
- Archive 12: sources for external links, date correction, "Culture of Life"/"Culture of Death", ABC poll, CAT Scans
- Archive 13: authority to report condition, NPOV tag, pain speculation in lead?, Catholic category, edit warring, Reuters cite, brain scan, nurse Iyer affidavit
- Archive 14: disability rights, Ms./Mrs. again, Hammesfahr update, POV issues, Michael an RN, poll on stating pain status
- Archive 15: summarizing televised statements, LA Times, cremation?, weight, Mr. Schiavo's girlfriend, "life support", Dr. Maxfield, 1994 hospice care, parents sent out before death?, who is "family", relevance of early life, fork article?
- Archive 16: still "current event"?, family in room, lead section, pronunciation, Last Rites, NYT, list of neurologists, TOC, copyediting, talk archiving and refactoring, "recent developments", affidavits
- Archive 17: "fact"/"alleged"/"disputed"/"claimed", Martinez talking points memo, HTML entities, Dr. Cranford, Zogby poll
- Archive 18: Mr. Schiavo living will?, GAL question, NPOV tag, article refactor, medical lodgings, wikithanks, cause of death, other articles
- Archive 19: short or long intro?, splitting article, relevance test, URL test, Tropix sock puppet?, Perry Fine quote
- Archive 20: Terri's weight discrepency, unusually stiff neck, length, web accessibility/definition of life-prolonging procedure, paraphrase v. quote, legal grist, re: Patsw rv., uncited statements?
- Archive 21: Valentine's Day rewritten, splitting article, to Ann Heneghan, the NCDave situation, Natural means
- Archive 22: NCdave troll?, NCdave vandalism / Prof. Ninja 3RR, Malpractice Suit, Reference links, Pecarek report, To Tropix, Consensus, Abuse, Factual Accuracy v. Neutral Point of View, issues of dispute
- Archive 23: POV tag, lead section, Bernat Senate Testimony, NCdave editing from IP, "formal vs. journalistic" style, LRod please create an account, Changes by JYolkowski
- Archive 24: Name formats, burial, FuelWagon vs GordonWatts, 'wacky edits', links - crackpot or not?, general squabbling
- Archive 25: POV again, Iyer affadavit again, Michael Schiavo and AStanhope hate cats, opening paragraph discussions, name format again, links, 'singling out Hammesfahr'
Please Use This Talk Page Correctly
From Wikipedia:Wikiquette
- Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis.
- You can always take a discussion to e-mail or to your user page if it's not essential to the article.
- Sign and date your posts to talk pages (not articles!).
Please bear these items in mind when posting to this talk page. This article is controversial and somewhat high traffic. Mis/overuse of the talk page makes it difficult for this page to serve its intended purpose.
Fox1 11:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have a suggestion
Why don't we start another article that can be accessed from the "See Also" link at the bottom of the page (or possibly referenced by a link somewhere in the main article) that would lead to an article that covers all of the theories and opinions from the Michael-killed-Terri-and-bought-the-judiciary school.
Both the Project Apollo and Earth articles have similar separate pages to cover the Flat Earth theories and Apollo moon landing hoax accusations and they are the perfect analog to the dichotomy we are seeing in the talk page concerning the Terri Schiavo article.
In the main article we would pretty much follow what we already have, which is mostly supported by cites to court orders, affidavits, transcripts, reports, and articles, and in the subsidiary article we could lay out all the alternative theories and whatever support they can provide.
That way, the anti-Terri people could advance their POV that Michael must have killed Terri because Judge Greer has the same first name as Attorney Felos or whatever their theory is. The rest of us who attempt to practice NPOV (we all have a POV—the trick is to try and minimize it) can polish up the article and eliminate some of the convoluted narrative that POV pushers have forced us to contrive.
Note that the comments on the peer review page have found the article to be generally quite NPOV. The suggestions that were made were primarily form and not more or less POV. Duckecho 23:29, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If you think my pages are conspiracy theories, then put them at that link. Here are some links you may find helpful, Duck:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Terri_Schiavo/archive24#Here_are_some_links_that_you_may_find_helpful --GordonWattsDotCom 10:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Holy crap. There is a major difference between putting up a flat-earth conspiracy article on wikipedia and a "Michael-killed-Terri-and-bought-the-judiciary" conspiracy article on wikipedia that you're forgetting: Wikipedia can't get sued for libel/defamation for saying the earth is flat, but it can get sued for saying Michael murdered Terri. At some point, the Iyer affidavit has to be tossed out as utter crap. Wikipedia should report it as Iyer's POV, but wikipedia should also report all the surrounding pieces around it that show a complete lack of any supporting evidence. To allow wikipedia to start reporting on every crackpot conspiracy theory that any jerkoff puts on his blog is (1) asking for serious legal trouble and (2) giving credence to utter crap conspiracy theories. Any idiot with a blog can put his conspiracy theory on his blog. Wikipedia can add nothing to that other than to give such a blog free advertising. I also imagine that every single sentence will have to start with the phrase "so and so said" followed by a URL. if "so and so said" is ever dropped, wikipedia becomes open to libel. At which point the only safe way to report some crackpot conspiracy theory on wikipedia would be to quote the site verbatim and you might as well let people find it on their own when they google "Michael murdered Terri". This is a really, really, bad idea. FuelWagon 15:03, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Your personal attacks are very tiresome, Duckecho & FuelWagon. If you want a "flat-earther" type conspiracy article, then it should be about those who think that Terri's mother, father, brother, sister, best friend, etc., who fought to save her life, were "Anti-Terri" (rather than the estranged husband who she had wanted to divorce, and who sought her death and forbade that she receive any kind of meaningful therapy for more than a dozen years, and who was quoted in sworn testimony by a disinterested caregiver as complaining, in her presence, "when is that bitch gonna die?").
- If you want a "flat-earther" type conspiracy article, then it should be about those who actually claim to believe that literally dozens of physicians, nurses, nurse, family members, and friends, most of whom had no plausible motive for dishonesty, conspired to lie about Terri's condition, falsely claiming that she was responsive, that she tried to talk, that she ate and obviously enjoyed Jell-O, etc., etc..
- If you want a "flat-earther" type article, then it should be about those who think that the legal team which consistently fought to prevent medical tests for Terri was confident in the diagnosis they advanced, and that the legal team which consistently fought to obtain more sophisticated and comprehensive medical tests for Terri was trying to conceal her true condition; that Felos/M.Schiavo/Greer were certain that Terri really couldn't swallow food, yet wouldn't permit the tests that would have proven it; that Felos/M.Schiavo/Greer were certain that Terri really had no brain activity in her cerebral cortex, yet wouldn't permit the PET and fMRI tests that would have proven it; that Felos/M.Schiavo/Greer were certain that Terri really was in a persistent vegetative state, yet wouldn't permit the comprehensive evaluation by independent neurologists that would have shown her true condition.
- If you want a "flat-earther" type article, then it should be about those who think that Michael's contradictory stories about the night/morning of Terri's injury were all true.
- If you want a "flat-earther" type article, then it should be about those who think that Michael only cared about Terri's wishes (and not about the hundreds of thousands of dollars he would inherit) when he tried to prevent her from being treated for a UTI, when he denied her parents and siblings access to her, when her euthanized her cats to facilitate moving in with his girlfriend, when he forbade that she receive therapy, when he denied her Holy Communion, etc., etc..
- If you want a "flat-earther" type article, then it should be about those who think that Michael Schiavo really did suddenly remember Terri telling him that she wouldn't want to be kept alive like that, approximately eight years after her accident, despite the fact that he had been telling people until then that he had no idea what she would want, despite the fact that his supposed recollection was contradicted by the sworn testimony of four witnesses and was inconsistent with his own sworn testimony in the malpractice trial; and despite the fact that his hiring of lawyer Felos, who knew the legal necessity for such an utterance, had nothing to do with his sudden, convenient memory of that utterance. NCdave 11:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with FuelWagon that an alt.Terri Schiavo-type article has the potential to create huge legal issues for Wikipedia. That said, the idea is a noble effort on the part of Duckecho to reach some sort of compromise. NCDave, you may want to note that your name was never mentioned in this suggestion and that Duckecho is actually trying to give you space to air your views. Of course to so that you might have to give credence to another person's suggestion; something you've had an abysmal record of in the past. Let's do this: NCDave, you're more than welcome you to use the Terri Schiavo/sandbox to show us what you think should be presented. Duckecho, how would we submit this idea to the Wiki Gods? I support the idea being reviewed, even if I don't support it's implementation.--ghost 15:59, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
email quote
Thanks, FuelWagon. I thought the email quote was suspect, myself. Moreover, although the editor's contribution stated the email was from Schindler to the governor, the article cited makes clear that the email was forwarded to the governor through a third party. It may not have been addressed to the governor in the first place. Although this might be nit-picky, the edit is plainly not an accurate portrayal of the event. And further, who's to say the email actually said that and that Schindler was the author? Are there sources for the claim? Duckecho 00:21, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Archived
All threads that haven't been touched for a week, plus one really big one that was more recent (last touched 2 days ago) but was going in circles - if anyone really does feel a burning yearning to revive it, please don't post it all back on here, because the talk page was over 300k again. Proto 12:02, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There was a formal request for mediation filed. It remains open. I copied my discussion of the need for mediation below, sans the arguements in the section, as they veered way off subject.
- Proto, thank you very big for doing an otherwise thankless job. FuelWagon 19:01, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Let's settle this
I took a break for a few days, came back, and found out things were at least has bad as they had been. *sigh* Rather than argue with the various parties involved, I move that we collectively ask a third party to get involved. I just read through Wikipedia: Requests for mediation, and I believe that both the article and the talk page have gotten to that point. All of us have opinions; most of us at one point or another have failed to respect the opinions of others (myself included); the article suffers for it. Enough. I move that a mediator examine the following:
- POV issues surrounding Ms. Schiavo's condition (PVS, MVS, etc.)
- POV issues surrounding the legal status Ms. Schiavo's family (legal guardianship of Terri; Michael's relationships; etc.)
- POV issues regarding terminology discussing the judge's ruling(s)
- Behavior on the Talk Page
Is there anything else? I personally would like to see some other issues addressed, but I would rather reach a consensus first on what we should ask a Mediator to help us resolve. I would like to achieve some type of baseline that the vast majority can agree to stand behind, even if we don't agree with the particulars. Failing that, I want to establish grounds for the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee getting involved. Wikipedia, the article and the Talk page should not places for people to grind their personal axes.--ghost 16:20, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
...
It appears to me that both of you (NCdave and FuelWagon) are at some level correct. NCdave is partially correct that some of the controversies may not be provided in the Wiki format of: Fact, document/link, fact about controversy, document/link. Rather, long and circular arguments are provided about one or both sides. This is suboptimal.
FuelWagon is correct in that NPOV is not served by inserting dissertations on one or the other POV. The reader should be allowed to reach their own conclusions, not be led of on a tangent. And unfortunately, the passion and detail of NCdave's arguments undermine his position on this point. So I submitted for mediation.
- I think you are generally correct on one important point, ghost: Namely, I think that at least the two main opposing views be presented on each subject, be it the feeding tube, what Terri's wishes were, how much rehab & theroapy should've been done, or even (for example) whether there should've been more examination of Terri. That is, you provide a good format: "Fact, document/link, fact about controversy, document/link." For example, The court ruled A (link), but the family (or other principals) said B (link). The court finally ruled C (link). Dave's passion (or lack therof) neither supports nor undermines his views. The fact stand or fall on their own merit (or lack therof). I was one of those users who both became frusterated with the rancor and argument --as well as the time spent that resulted in reverts. Resultantly, I am expected to limit my participation, but I mean no offense by this. Ann has a good point. As an example of rancor, let me point out that on the point of whether my court cases were "notable," I still haven't seen an answer as to why the court simply didn't deny my rehearing petition immediately by a 7-0 vote. History records that they reviewed the petition (case SC03-2420) from before Jeb file dhis petition until after his petition (SC04-925) was denied. Also, they denied it 4-3. Governor Jeb Bush was denied 7-0. See e.g., http://jweb.flcourts.org/pls/docket/ds_docket_search%20 I may have lost, but I was more "notable" than the good Governor, and I discuss this point in other places. Suffice it to say that the vanity page guidelines allow a NONfamous person to post his own pages, a fact that is not only rejected by some but also with rancor and poking fun at me. Next time you've done notable work, you might not get mentioned, and when one is cheated, all feel pain, particularily the readers who are cheated. I also refuse to get caught up in WIKI edit wars. In conclusion, let's argue less and follow GHOST's suggestion more: Put on the main points of view -and their respective documentation; don't worry about what order it is, or the details: It would be bad for your health to stress out. Now, is there any reason not to so do? --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:29, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
We CAN make this work. As a group, it requires that we choose too. We have a moral obligation to do so that started when we hit the 'edit' button. Let's see what a 3rd party has to say about what Wikipedia's position(s) should be.--ghost 13:26, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
NCDave is simply pushing a POV. Each edit he makes is founded in a particular theory he has. Okay, I don't have a problem with that POV's being represented but it may not be put forward as "neutral" or as "the facts". I've suggested to him and I suggest to you, ghost, that he puts his suggested edits here on the talkpage, with short justifications, and sources where appropriate, one by one. Allow each to be fully discussed. Accept a compromise. We can go through the entire article in that manner. I don't know why you expect a mediator to say anything different. They're not simply going to say "let's just take a middle course". Most editors will, I think, agree that FuelWagon represents something like the neutral view and NCDave an extreme POV. A middle course would be somewhere slanted towards Dave's view. But articles should represent controversies quite separately from facts, not represent each side as though its "facts" had equal validity. Dave's facts are all too often interpretations ex post facto or what you might call "negative facts": Mr Schiavo did not do this, the judge did not do that, and conclusions he draws from those omissions (it would be slightly more acceptable if Dave restricted himself to others' commentary and didn't seek to interpose his own thinking on it. Grace Note 23:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- Your insults notwithstanding, Grace Note, my POV is that the article should be balanced and accurate. If you think that's "extreme" then you may call me an extremist, but I think that says more about your POV than mine. NCdave 02:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I actually do have a problem with NCdave's pov being represented. The POV's that deserve representation in teh article are Michaels and the Schindlers. NCdave's pov is irrelevant. The POV of some blog in tim-buck-two is irrelevant. MY pov is irrelevant. The point is to report the POV's of the main players who were actually involved, not some armchair Don Quixote who can inflate his self ego by declaring himself to be on the side of the "culture of life" and waging war against whatever delusions of evil he might have. FuelWagon 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
To all: Please voice your support, or lack of support, for mediation at Wikipedia: Request for mediation (Terri Schiavo and the Talk:Terri Schiavo pages).--ghost 14:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In keeping with fairness, I shall take my own advice. As far as "extra" stuff, I usually will NOT say something should go: I am a true "inclusionist." Now, are there things missing? Yes, I would add more links to both "Advocacy/Commentary" pages --and also to "Court documents/References-type" pages. (I myself manage websites that both have opinion AND court document compilation on board, including videos, but I am speaking in the broader sense: I would include many other pages that are NOT my own: In fact, when my friend GAVE me a website called GordonWatts.com, I was very reluctant to use it because I thought having a self-centered name would detract from my credibility, but I later "came around." Reasoning: If I have GordonWatts.com as a site, it makes it easier for folks to find me on the web.)--GordonWattsDotCom 23:13, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Now, GHOST raises a good point: What about "other" theories about what really happened (case and facts) --or opinions on whether the courts' ruling were legal (strictly "legal" arguments, not arguments about facts?? I have said it once (I think?), and I shall say it again: When looking for that elusive gold standard, we need to look at other articles, such as the slavery article, in which it not only mentions the court ruling against Mr. Dred Scott (the African-American man who was ruled a slave by the courts), but ALSO the article mentions the sentiments and feelings of others contemporary --and most likely mentions the "arguments" both "for and against," at, for example:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Reparations (which gives coverage of the views of some who DISAGREE with slavery; thus, coverage of those who disagree with the way the courts ruled in re Schiavo deserve equal treatment)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Apologies (which shows more coverage of "opposing view," and again, is a good example from which we can follow in the SCHIAVO article). And...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Definitions , which opines that "Many left wing thinkers have also discussed the idea of "wage slavery", although it is also generally accepted that payment of a wage signifies "free labour", with the quite different disadvantages experienced by such workers" (This shows one view of slavery, which is NOT accepted by the courts' recent rulings, BUT is included to make the article complete; Thus, Schiavo' article should include mention of the major views, without taking a stance of support on any one of them; The major criteria should be "is this view held by many people?" If this it is a "fact" that many people believe it (whether they are right or wrong; whether the courts' current agree or NOT), then this "fact," as in the slavery articles, should likewise be reported in relation to Theresa Schindler-Schiavo.
Additionally, it probably does (and should) list LINKS to document critical and key assertions. So, in SUMMARY, the Schiavo article, (like all other good articles), should list "fact 1" (link), courts' ruling (link 2), opposing view on disputed facts (link 3), opposing view on legality of courts' ruling (link 4), and lastly arguments used to support BOTH sides (links 5, 6, and 7, or whatever). Order is NOT important. Including all the elements and differing views and arguments/links supporting the respective views IS important.--GordonWattsDotCom 23:13, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Gordon, I read thru your links on Slavery. I see your point, although I don't agree with them (Do I ever? ;-) ). However, you miss the fact that the Slavery article is VERY POV. As it should be. Slavery has been found to be illegal and immoral not only in the court public opinion, but in the courts thruout the world. So what was Abolitionist POV in 1861 has become fact. What will the standard of fact be regarding Terri in 10 years? In 20? The Dred Scott case is interesting, in that it's Judicial activism at its very worst. But how the article handles it illustrates a standard of dealing with minority POV that I've championed before: State the mainstream fact, state the conflicting POV with link, state the mainstream rebuttal (if needed), move on. No Doctoral dissertations. Two sentences + link. If this is the format you want to suggest for handling the more fringe material in the article, take it up with Uncle Ed. I maintain it's a Pandora's box.--ghost 02:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree that Dred Scott was judicial activism. I argued this once before (here, I believe). You have to look at the decision in the context of the 1850s. There was no Emancipation Proclamation, there was no 14th Amendment, slavery was widespread. Two of the precedents that the Court had to consider was the 3/5ths Compromise at the Constitutional Convention which specifically dealt with slavery and citizenship (Supreme Court decisions are frequently decided based on the intent of the framers, which come from proceedings of the Convention and also, Hamilton, Madison, Jay's, The Federalist Papers), and a citizenship issue under Articles III and IV of the Constitution. In the context of the 1850s there wasn't the hindsight and cultural enlightenment of our modern day for them to use in their decision. While it's now regarded as bad law, the decision certainly wasn't legislating from the bench. Some people persist in throwing the case up as an example of the fallibility of the courts, but that argument fails on two points—that amendment(s) to the Constitution and Executive Order have negated its effects, and as I've shown above, it may not have been a wrong decision in the context of the law of the time. Duckecho 04:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- (Fixing font to Times New Roman so the "I" (capitol "i") and the number "1" and the "l" (little "L") don't all look the same!) "I disagree that Dred Scott was judicial activism." Well, I think it was, because there are absolutes as far as rights and wrongs go, or so I think; however, the rightness and/or activism that ghost and I allege is not relevant. Wikipedia's job is NOT to take sides but merely to present facts, points of view, arguments, and references, such as website links and any other proof that need be (such as a book, an interview, a law of physics, etc.), but to REGRESS (cf digress) ... "...amendment(s) to the Constitution and Executive Order have negated its effects" this too is moot. That would be like saying that it's OK to steal -so long as you "negate" the effect by later giving it back. "...and as I've shown above, it may not have been a wrong decision in the context of the law of the time." Wrong: That "time," as you so eloquently put it was only a hundred and forty or so years ago -not Cave Man "Og" times of the prehistoric: The people of Abe Lincoln's era DID have just as much conscience and knowledge of "right and wrong" as do we nowadays. (Lack of technology is no excuse.) Duck's disagreement with me is moot: It probably will not affect negatively the editing of the article. Duck and Wagon have been pretty good about not letting their point of view get in the article, which I think is good.
- In addition, I would like to bring up a point that (I think it was) Fangz had said a long time ago, namely that if my involvement was "notable," that someone else would mention it -and that I should not make such edits myself. Well, I was quite happy (and surprised) when I saw the link to the court's decision of one of my lawsuits in the "Activism_and_protests" section of the Schiavo article here. I later discovered that Duck was the one to have made this edit, and I wanted to give him credit for his fairness here. While I don't like people to disagree with me, they have a right to. When people make fair and balanced edits, they even more so have a right to a diverging point of view or opposing opinion. OK, that being said, in answering you, Ghost, we may address the differing points of view and make everyone "happy." (Now quoting Ghost:) State the mainstream fact, state the conflicting POV with link, state the mainstream rebuttal (if needed), move on. No Doctoral dissertations. Two sentences + link. If this is the format you want to suggest... Ghost, this seems about right: I don't know why you think I disagreed with you. By the way, I elaborated on your method here, and I see you moved my comments to this page. Therefore, you may like a few paragraphs above for my proposed format of POV#1 - link - court ruling - link - POV#2 - link .... various arguments - various links, etc.--GordonWattsDotCom 06:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sandbox created
I created a subpage to make a sandbox. Terri Schiavo/sandbox. I took the liberty of doing my own restructure of the article to better follow the timeline, as others had suggested. There were a few redundancies that could then be removed. The ToC makes a LOT more sense in this version. Thoughts?--ghost 21:28, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
- I think that order of topics definitely makes the article more comprehensible. --L33tminion (talk) 16:24, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Political Animal
Just a heads-up, but a couple of commentators on Kevin Drum's "Political Animal" blog have singled out this article for praise: original blog post and comments 1 and 2. Good work! --Calton | Talk 08:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Wow. Folks this is a feather in the cap of all here. You all deserve praise. (And I do mean all of you.)--ghost 19:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- That's pretty cool having our work acknowledged by someone. FuelWagon 19:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yep, cool. Must be we got it right. Duckecho 22:11, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Third Party
Ghost asked me to take a look. Actually, the article seems fairly well balanced, and has a "matter of fact" tone.
There is no way the reader can miss the conflict between the parents' views and the prevailing views. They thought their daughter was alive enough that she should be helped to recover. The others said, no, it's time to let her die.
Naturally this would be just as divisive an issue as abortion, gay rights, deprogramming, Iraq invasion, gitmo, etc. - with the added media bonus of an impending deadline: save my child before the courts kill her!
The key here, now that much of the uproar has died down, is to recognize and cherish each major POV - as opposed to, say, rejecting certain POVs as "not worthy of mention because they're obviously wrong-headed or biased". (My favorite excuse is: leave out this person's POV because it's POV - as if fairly describing all major points of view in a controversy were somehow a violation of NPOV policy rather than the heart and soul of it.
So let's all calm down and take up the task of identifying and describing the major points of view about the key facts and issues of the topic. Ghost, can you lay out the main points of contention? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 00:06, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
- I was unaware you had been invited to mediate regarding the article. We editors have had to stay alert for three months or more as various less than optimum edits were made by either known POV pushers or drive-by, hit-and-run contributors. That's why I reverted your edit, not ever having seen you before. Having said that, however, I am not in favor of the edit you made for the following reasons: Duckecho 01:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- It's in the introduction. The introduction is already too long. It's time to pare it down, not add to it. All of the issues of who decided what and why really belong further down in the article (and are there already). To get where we are (were, before your edit) we had to settle for some clutter in the intro to mollify some editors. Now, three months later, we should refine it by trimming it. Duckecho 01:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- In our justice system trials are held to determine facts. Both sides present their evidence, elicit testimony, and cross examine the witnesses. A judge then makes a ruling, called a finding of fact. Yes, the judge determines the facts of the case based on the evidence. Those facts are then NPOV. There's no need to dance around with passive language about NPOV facts. Duckecho 01:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I feel your wording is inelegant in this paragraph,:
- The court issued a ruling opposing the dignosis of the parents' doctors and siding with the doctors who said Schiavo was in a PVS. This ruling was upheld on every appeal, by 19 different judges, both in state courts and later in federal courts, which seemed to settle the issue.
- for at least a couple of reasons. First is the POV/fact point made in my preceding paragraph. Secondly, "siding with the doctors" strikes me as sounding POV. It's certainly not a well turned phrase, in my opinion. Finally, the phrase "which seemed to settle the issue," not only has a POV sound to it, but is demonstrably not the case. Witness the numerous appeals by the Schindlers and check the archives of the talk page (and more convincingly, the blogosphere). In many minds, the issue is not settled now. Duckecho 01:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- For the most part, even the most rabid editors claiming the article was either not accurate or not NPOV, had already accepted the wording of the intro and had their problems elsewhere in the article. While I appreciate your presence and interest in the article, I suggest that this edit is not in the best interests of the article or the many contributors who had a hand in forging it, and I ask that you revert it. Duckecho 01:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I confess ignorance as to the mechanics of the mediation process. I wouldn't have guessed that coming in and making an edit in the article right off the bat before even discussion of purpose or intentions on the talk page was the standard methodology. Still, I'm glad you're here, now ask away. Duckecho 01:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Points of Contention
First, I'd like to apologize to the group for the late arrival of 3rd party mediation. I appear to have missed a step. (The need to personally request a Mediator was not spelled out at the time of my original request.) 8-/ Anyway, Ed asked that I layout points of contention. Please edit them gently, so that we can develop a list we (mostly) all agree on.--ghost 01:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hot button items
- What is Fact?: Several of us feel the best NPOV standard is to assume that all rulings of the courts, not overturned, are considered fact for the purposes of this article. Others feel that the courts are not infallible, therefore we must adhere to a "higher" standard.
- If a "higher" standard is to be used, how do we deal with Terri's condition, etc.?:
- How does that impact the status of the Micheal & the Schindlers?:
- What is the status of Micheal, the Schindlers & other family members?: This sets the tone for topics such as guardianship.
- How do we handle repetious, extreme POV insertions from specific individuals?:
- What is Fact?: Several of us feel the best NPOV standard is to assume that all rulings of the courts, not overturned, are considered fact for the purposes of this article. Others feel that the courts are not infallible, therefore we must adhere to a "higher" standard.
Commentary on the items
Okay, let me address the fact thing. I may have misstated slightly when I asserted that facts are NPOV, while Ed said that court rulings (findings of fact; my words, not his) have a POV. Of course he's right. However, once that ruling (or finding of fact) is made, it is the same as one of the immutable laws of physics. Sure, there's a POV about it, but because it's a fact, it is indisputable and therefore neutral. That's what I was getting at. Facts are neutral. The court ruled that Terri was in a PVS. Any argument or assertion that she was not in a PVS is biased against the finding of fact that she was. That's where we kept getting into trouble with people. They didn't know what the court had ruled, or they didn't like what the court had ruled, or they didn't understand how the legal system works. They objected when we said "Terri was in a PVS" because from their POV (based on one of the three aforementioned failings) she might not be, which changes everything that followed. But the fact is, the court had so ruled, and although one can certainly say that it is the POV of the court, it is also the law of the land and any POV apart from that ruling cannot be neutral. Does that make sense? Duckecho 02:16, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Of course the courts are not infallible, but they are the best we have. Whether there's a higher standard or authority is a theological question not germane to the discussion, because the courts are the only arena in which we can resolve disputes. Not satisfy the litigants, necessarily, but resolve, nonetheless. We can certainly assume that when the ruling of a judge survives not one, not two, not three, but many appeals, it approaches infallibility. The one thing to remember about the Terri Schiavo situation is that it had enormous emotional baggage. At the end of the day, however, the resolution of the conflict surrounding her situation, was a legal one. And the findings, with respect to the legal system, are therefore neutral points of view once they are made. Duckecho 02:16, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Uncle Ed, I tend to agree with Duckecho on the concept that the court's ruling give us as close to a bulletproof-standard as we're ever going to have in this article. That said, alot of people disagree with the courts on this one. And I can see where the "higher-standard" POV folks would read a POV tone into what is an attempt at an NPOV statement of fact about a ruling. And tone can be just as damning to the article. The only way I can see of presenting contrary POV regarding a ruling is to meticulously go thru each statement of fact, provide a rebuttal with a link, and move on. The problems I have with that are: 1) That's a tremendous amount of work. 2) The history of this article shows that is likely to get unwound the next time an extremist shows up. 3) It leads to "article creep" as more and more point/counterpoint is added. Any ideas?--ghost 02:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- A court ruling does not become an immutable law of physics. That's nonsense. Science works on continuous re-examination of evidence that's open to anyone. The meta-POV that the court's POV is the neutral POV is wrong. patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Pat, please reread my comments above. I'm not saying that the court's POV is the neutral POV. I don't know that there truly is a neutral POV when people have differing opinions. I'm saying that the court's ruling is a finding of fact. Facts are neutral, whatever POV one asseses of them. Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The fact that the Schindlers before and after Terri's death disputed the rulings of Greer's court is not an appeal to an undefined "higher standard" but to editors here to accurately reflect what was disputed: i.e., Terri expressed wishes to die of thirst... patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Pat, so long as you persist in couching the case in inflammatory terms you undermine your purported position as seeking of truth. The question (as I've pointed out before) was Terri's expressed wishes to not live on prolonged life support. Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- ...should she suffer a severe but non-terminal injury to her brain, patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Again, in the state of Florida, a feeding tube is life support therefore, according to the statutes, she was in a terminal condition, your inflammatory wording notwithstanding. Read the statutes. Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- ...her state of being unaware and unable to communicate from February 1990 and thereafter, etc.patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- So, we are in agreement then on this point, that she was unaware and unable to communicate? Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't help get this article completed to label people like myself who want the Schindlers' disputes with the court presented in the article as well as Michael's victorious POV as extremists.patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- But their dispute is presented in the article. The mediator himself said, "[t]here is no way the reader can miss the conflict between the parents' views and the prevailing views." The only conclusion one can draw in your argument is that the conflict isn't couched in the inflammatory terms such as you used above, and that is extremist. Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not carrying out a vendetta but on the same side as Duckecho and ghost if they are seeking an accurate article rather than a one-side presentation of Michael's victorious POV.patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- In my mind, there are three classes of items that are making the pro-Michael cabal hit the delete key:
- An assertion made by the Schindlers' without evidence: i.e. that Michael may have strangled Terri to cause the loss of oxygen to her brain.
- An assertion made by the Schindlers' with evidence: i.e. that Terri would not have sought to die of thirst should she suffer a severe but non-terminal brain injury.
- An argument made by the Schindlers' against Michael's credibility using a fact not in dispute: i.e. that Michael sought Terri's death by attempting to allow her bladder infection to go untreated.
- I'm not an advocate of speculative items in the first group. The second and third group on the other hand reflect the compelling parts of the story which a truly neutral article would present. patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- In my mind, there are three classes of items that are making the pro-Michael cabal hit the delete key:
- Again, had you phrased part two, for example, as Terri would not have sought to discontinue life support while in a terminal condition (straight out of the statute), that part of the story becomes neutral, and worthy of inclusion. In fact, I think it's prima facie that the Schindlers did contest that and is represented in the article. Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, with that wording, that part of the story becomes doubly inaccurate:
- 1) Terri wasn't on "life support" as that term was universally understood at the time of Terri's 1990 injury. So even if Terry had written and signed and had notarized a document in January, 1990, saying that in some circumstance she would not want to be kept on "life support," that would still have said nothing about whether she would have wanted to be kept alive with a feeding tube, because in 1990 nobody considered a feeding tube to be "life support."
- 2) Terri's condition wasn't terminal. Michael Schiavo admitted as much during the 1992 malpractice lawsuit, when he testified under oath that he intended to care for Terri for the rest of his life. The fact that her condition was not terminal was the reason they killed her. If she'd been terminal, they'd not have had to wage a 7 year legal battle to end her life, they could have just waited until she died. NCdave 13:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sometimes I think some editors miss the reason why Terri's story is important: it is the first case in the U.S. where a dispute over substitute judgment ended with a court order to remove nutrition and hydration from a human being and directly cause her death, not otherwise at risk of death. patsw 15:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Patsw, guardians have had to make these kinds of decisions for decades. The difference here is that the guardian, Michael, was vehemently opposed by non-guardian family members, the Schindlers, to the point of dragging it through the courts and before the public eye over the course of several years. Guardians have had to make these sorts of painful decisions for decades. The only reason the courts got involved was because Terri's parents wanted to override the guardian's decision. And the court sided with the guardian. So, no, I don't think it's important because of a "substitute" judgement ended life support. That's what guardians have had to choose now for decades. The only difference here is that the courts had to step in and hear the parent's claims that Michael shouldn't be Terri's guardian and that Terri would want to remain on life support, before ruling both claims out. So, back to Ed's comment above that we cherish the different POV's, I can clearly get the pain the parents were going through in wanting to keep their daughter alive at all costs, but I also get that from Michael's point of view that he was doing what many guardians do in deciding for a spouse or someone under their care that there's nothing more that can be done. And there is the rub, because the guardian gets to decide. Had the parents been teh guardians, then Terri might spend the next 4 decades saying "wa", hooked up to a feeding tube, and that would be that. But Michael was her guardian. And while I can understand and empathize with the Schindler's pain of watching her daughter die, I don't hear a lot of Schindler supporters saying they understand and empathize with Michael's decision to end life support, like so many other guardians have done over the years. FuelWagon 17:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- not otherwise at risk of death. That's like saying a person died of dehydration in the desert, but wouldn't have if they only had water. She was at risk of death. Without a feeding tube she would die. Even if she had some swallowing capability, she could not ingest enough nutrition to sustain her life (that's not my opinion; it's in the testimony and is quoted in one of the court orders). Therefore, she was at risk of death without artificial support and was consequently in a terminal condition. Have you read the statute that defines terminal condition? Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, the importance of the story is that (as Wolfson points out in his report) two well intentioned families could not agree on the circumstances in which Terri existed and could not agree on the path to be taken. No matter what decision the court might have made there would be an equally compelling and vigorous challenge (and POV) to the contrary as there was in the event. Duckecho 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Only one family was well-intentioned. They were trying to protect her. The other "family" was the estranged husband who wanted her dead, who, at the time of her 1990 injury, she had wanted to divorce, who killed her cats and assaulted her siblings, who wanted "that bitch to die" (his words, according to sworn testimony), who refused her treatment for a painful and dangerous UTI, and who had been seeking to cause her death for more than a decade (the last 7 years of which by legal means). He testified under oath that he would not permit her family to care for her because they made him miserable. If Michale Schiavo was "well-ententioned" then you are the Pope, Duckecho. NCdave 13:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- For the record, I don't view patsw, or most others, as being in the extremist camp. And it these are views that I'd like to see brought into the article's mainstream. The vast majority of us desperately want as neutral and accurate an article as possible. That way, when one of the true extremists raises their head, we can respond as a community. Also, the group that defends the court's POV usually does so without regard to Michael's POV. Michael's POV is only relevant in that he happened to win. That said, of Patsw's three points:
- Like Patsw, I am vehemently opposed to group #1. Heresay has zero place in Wikipedia.
- The only evidence of Terri's supposed desire to die was hearsay evidence (and it was 7-1/2 year belated hearsay testimony, which was colored by conflict of interest and contradictory to previous testimony of the same witness). Would you support removing that from the Wikipedia article? NCdave 13:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- With group #2, why is the onus for this on the editors defending the court's POV? I have suggested repeatedly that those that wish to see these types of items included are welcome to do so provided it is brief and properly referenced. Writing for the enemy is a fine idea. But why do I have both write for the enemy AND do hours of work to hit moving target?
- How can we amateurs possibly establish Michael's, or anyone else's, credability? We can't. That's the court's job. Therefore, lacking proper evidence, this becomes heresay. The only midpoint that makes sense is where credability has been questioned by reliable sources. Not blogs, etc. Then it could provide background, and would fall into the 2nd group.--ghost 17:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Autopsy results announced
I suggest we discuss here before someone enters text into the article. patsw 15:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree... no need to get into another edit war. --Lord Voldemort 15:37, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- What's the big deal? The only reason there would be an edit war is if someone insists on holding onto their conspiracy theories in the face of autopsy evidence. FuelWagon 15:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
LARGO, Fla. - Terri Schiavo did not suffer any trauma prior to her 1990 collapse and her brain was about half of normal size when she died, according to results released Wednesday of an autopsy conducted on the severely brain-damaged woman.
Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that there was no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse. He also said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.
Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after Schiavo's death ended an internationally watched right-to-die battle that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.
She died from dehydration, he said.
He said she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth as her parents' requested.
"Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," Thogmartin told reporters.
Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.
"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
- I've heard stuff from the press conference that sounds like Thogmartin was asked to speculate and he speculated. What should be entered into the article should not include his speculation but his findings. In terms of what was a surprise from the autopsy report, "she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack" is an example. patsw 15:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I haven't been able to read the PDF (although I've downloaded two versions of it; must be a local problem). I'd be interested in what the context of the "she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack" quote is. Lay people often interchange heart attack and cardiac arrest. They are not synonymous. If you're surprised at the quote because you're thinking of the initial medical crisis which included cardiac arrest, don't be, because the lack of heart attack doesn't rule out cardiac arrest. A heart attack (myocardial infarct) frequently leaves markers discernible at autopsy (and certainly in an EKG while the subject is alive). Evidence of a previous cardiac arrest may not. Duckecho 19:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- This Terri advocacy site has the pdf of the autopsy. patsw 15:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Some of the autopsy press accounts (including the one that was added to the article) are sloppily written. The report has conclusions about 1990, the period from 1990 through 2005, the time of her death, and speculation about her future medical condition in the event that she had not died from dehyration in March 2005. I see some accounts blended all these time frames together. patsw 16:26, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "the article should not include his speculation". The doctor who actually performed the autopsy, who actually examined the body, shouldn't speculate? That's convenient. I think there is a fundamental difference between some knuclehead watching TV and speculating what was wrong with Terri and the doctor who performed the autopsy speculating beyond the specifics of teh autopsy. This is just attempting to keep the conspiracy theories alive. FuelWagon 18:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'm making the distinction that you would make - what's actually in the report as opposed to a oral speculative comment made at the press conference in response to a reporter's question without a context for what time frame the answer relates to. My motivation is accuracy not "keeping conspiracy theories alive". patsw 20:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Autopsy results to be released today
Terri's autopsy report is to be released today. So now's the time to ask: Does anyone hear really believe that Terri's cerebral cortex was "missing" or "replaced by spinal fluid" or "scar tissue?" NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I doubt it. I think we all know that those claims by Felos/Cranford et al were just plain lies. The truth, as I think almost everyone here at least suspects, is that Terri's cerebral atrophy was moderately severe, but her cerebral cortex was far from "missing." As radiologist Thomas Boyle, M.D. (host of the award-winning CodeBlueBlog web site), who has interpreted over 10,000 brain CT scans, wrote, "I have seen many walking, talking, fairly coherent people with worse cerebral/cortical atrophy. Therefore, this is in no way prima facie evidence that Terri Schiavo's mental abilities or/or capabilities are completely eradicated. I cannot believe such testimony has been given on the basis of this scan." NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, the infinite, all-knowing, and wise (and fundamentally neutral) Dr. Boyle. Give me a break. The guy is a right wing nut job who has a blog that gets money for writing outrageous stuff like "why are all the Democrats in the US trying to MURDER Terri?" Yeah, there's a real winner. Go away. FuelWagon 18:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Good grief. Dr. Boyle is a highly respected and credentialed specialist, who agreed with every other radiologist that I know of who has offered an opinion about Terri's radiological studies (and their paucity), and whose conclusion that Terri's crebral cortex was not "replaced by spinal fluid" or "missing" has now been confirmed by autopsy. He was justifiably outraged at the murder of an innocent, handicapped person, based on obviously false medical claims. That does not make him a "right wing nut job." NCdave 21:10, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Or is there someone here who will go out on a limb and predict that the autopsy report will say what Felos et al were claiming, that Terri in effect had no cerebral cortex? NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If there is someone here who actually believes that Felos, Cranford et al were telling the truth, then I have a modest proposal for you. This is our opportunity to end the argument over Terri's condition, by finishing the argument over the veracity of the doctors chosen by Felos/M.Schiavo/Greer (who variously claimed that Terri was either probably or definitely in a PVS), vs. the veracity of the doctors chosen by the Schindlers and by the Florida DCF (who believed that Terri was at least minimally conscious). Here's my offer (good if any of the frequent pro-Michael contributors here will take me up on it BEFORE the autopsy results are released): NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If the autopsy report indicates that Terri's cerebral cortex really was missing, then I will cease arguing that she wasn't in a PVS. NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "I will cease arguing" Oh, if only that were true, it would be a happy day, indeed. FuelWagon
- Of course, the autopsy showed that her cerebral cortex was not missing. NCdave 21:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- And of course, I knew you will never cease arguing until this article says the "truth" about the Felos propaganda machine, the murder attempts by Michael, and the coverup by Greer. So, we're back where we started, aren't we. FuelWagon 22:15, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Of course, the autopsy showed that her cerebral cortex was not missing. NCdave 21:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "I will cease arguing" Oh, if only that were true, it would be a happy day, indeed. FuelWagon
- But if the autopsy report indicates that Terri had significant remaining cerebral cortex, then y'all will cease arguing that she was in a PVS, and will concede that Felos and his hand-picked doctors (who claimed she had no cerebral cortex) were not credible, and will support changing the article to say that Terri "was variously diagnosed as either 'minimally conscious' or 'vegetative.'" NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon? Neutrality? Duckecho? Grace note? Astanhope? Preisler? Mike H? Lankiveil? SS451? Anybody? Who'll take me up on it? NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Neutrality said, "That Schiavo's cerebral cortex is destroyed and replaced by spinal fluid is a medical fact." If you really believe that, then now's your chance to shut me up about Terri's condition! How about it? NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
SS451 said, "Added information about Schiavo's loss of cerebral cortex--I've heard no dispute over that." Do you really believe it, SS451? NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My prediction is that none of the M.Schiavo supporters here really believes that Terri had no cerebral cortex, at least not with sufficient certainty to "put their money where their mouths are." I predict that no one here really believes that the M.Schiavo legal/medical team was trustworthy and telling the truth about Terri's condition, and no one here really believes that Terri had no cerbral cortex, and so none of you will say "yes" to this offer. NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Prove me wrong, please! NCdave 15:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Whoops, the autopsy was released before I finished typing, and Patsw was apparently editing while I was editing, and posted first. Oh, well. NCdave 20:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, you're wrong. Terri's brain was half the weight of a normal brain. Her cerebral cortex really was gone. Your accusations that Felos rigged the CT image is a crock. THe coroner said Terri was BLIND, which means that video tape by the schindlers where it APPEARS that Terri is looking at her mother REALLY WAS just random motions in Terri's body that synced up with the location of her mother. The only way for you to continue your assinine behavioiur on this page would require that you include the coroner on the massive conspiracy. Perhaps he was paid by Felos and Greer? FuelWagon 18:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Half the weight of a normal brain is not "gone," of course.
- Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that Felos "rigged" the CT image. I said that he selected one shallow slice from the CT scan, to maximize the apparent atrophy. Then he compounded the sin by juxtaposing that carefully selected slice with a much deeper slice from a normal brain to exaggerate the apparent difference. It was was a grossly dishonest propaganda stunt. NCdave 21:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The fact is well-known that Terri was partially (but not completely) blind. There was no mistaking the fact that she turned and looked at people, tracked moving objects with her eyes, and recognized and responded to family members. When Dr. Cheshire (of the Florida DCF) first met her, she turned and looked at him, and maintained eye contact for about 30 seconds. If the autopsy report actually says that she was completely blind, then that is a plain error. But my guess is that the press misreported a statement about her being partially blind or legally blind or some such thing. NCdave 21:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- You are mindless, you know that? You will ignore anything that disagrees with what you want to believe. I'm in the process of reading the autopsy report and found an interesting footnote on page 16 of 39: FuelWagon 22:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Brain weight is an important index of its pathological state. Brain weight is correlated with height, weight, age, and sex. The decendent's brain was grossly abnormal and weighed only 615 grams. That weight is less than half of the expected tabular weight for a decendent of her adult age of 41 years. By way of comparison, the brain of Karen Ann Quinlan weighed 835 grams at the time of her death, after 10 years in a similar persistent vegetative state.
- Whether there was no cerebral cortex or not really was never the issue. That she was in a persistent vegetative state was the issue. That you would argue that one point in the face of all of the following evidence from the autopsy report serves to illustrate why your theories have met with so very little support. -Duckecho
- Say WHAT?? Thogmartin offered no opinion about whether or not Terri was in a PVS. But the Felos/Cranford/etc. claim that Terri had no cerebral cortex, and the fact that their claim was a lie, is very important, for two reasons:
- 1) It proves that Cranford, Felos, are untrustworthy. They were were flat-out lying when they claimed that she had no cerebral cortex. They had the CT scan (the one that they released one carefully select slice from), and they knew better. They are liars, and nothing they say can be trusted. It is now proven that they lied about that to justify ending Terri's life, so it there is no reason to say that anything else they said for that purpose was true.
- 2) It demolishes one of their key arguments. They argued (and their supporters argued here on Wikipedia) that it was impossible that Terri could be helped by rehabilitative therapy or other treatments, because she had no cerebral cortex.
- But there's a world of difference between 50% and 0%. Many people get along remarkably well with only 50% of their brain intact (Christina Santhouse,for example). (I'll refrain from making political jokes.) Some people even get along with much less than 50%, in fact.[1]
- The fact that Terri's brain was 50% intact means that, contrary to what Felos/Cranford/M.Schiavo claimed, it was reasonable to hope that she could be helped by therapy. NCdave 20:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Terri Schiavo did not suffer any trauma prior to her 1990 collapse. -Duckecho
- The radiological evidence from her bone scan (I think it was in 1991) showed that she did suffer numerous traumas. The argument wasn't over whether or not she had such traumas, it was over when and how. The autopsy could not possibly have determined whether the traumas observed 14 years ago occurred before or after her 1990 injury. However, in 14 years cracked and bruised bones do heal. According to an April article, "Schiavo's husband has denied harming his wife. His lawyer said the fractures resulted from osteoporosis caused by the woman's years of immobility and complications of her medication."[2] Of course, there had been only about one year of immobility (not "years") when the bone scan was done. Fifteen years of bedrest is terrible for the bones, but she should have been on a bisphosphonate to forstall osteoporosis. NCdave 20:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- there was no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse. -Duckecho
- Thogmartin said that he could not determine the cause of her collapse. That is consistent with what I've been repeatedly lambasted for saying here on Wikipedia.
- "Thogmartin said the investigation was unable to determine what caused Schiavo's collapse." [3]
- When I put into the article that the cause of her collapse was undetermined, I got blasted for "POV-pushing." I await the apologies. NCdave 20:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.
- she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth as her parents' requested.
- Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not. -Duckecho
- The question of whether or not Terri could have been sustained by natural feeding will forever remain a matter of speculation. It could have been settled if the Greer/Felos/M.Schiavo had permitted the swallowing tests and therapy that at least three speech pathologists (the experts on such matters) and the GAL all recommended. From the FoxNews article, it appears that Thogmartin was baited into commenting on her swallowing ability in response to a reporter's question, the article doesn't say whether the autopsy report has anything to say about it. A coroner is not well qualified to engage in such speculation, certainly not as well qualified as a speech pathologist. The fact that she could and did eat Jell-O and take Holy Communion suggests that Thogmartin might have been wrong about that. NCdave 20:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The report does make the conclusion on page 34 that she could not have been nourished by mouth. Posted below -O^O
- Could Mrs. Schiavo eat by mouth? The neuropathologic findings, oropharyngeal anatomic findings, and medical records clearly indicate that Mrs. Schiavo would not have been able to consume sustenance safely andlor in suffkient quantity by mouth. In fact, the records and findings are such that oral feedings in quantities sufficient to sustain life would have certainly resulted in aspiration. Swallowing evaluations and speech pathology evaluations repeatedly record that Mrs. Schiavo was a high risk for aspiration and not a candidate for oral nutritionhydration. Although in her early rehabilitation, she received speech pathology services, she was later repeatedly evaluated and determined not to be a candidate for speechldysphagia therapy. According to medical records, she had been treated in the past for aspiration pneumonia. Thus, Mrs. Schiavo was dependent on nutrition and hydration via her feeding tube. Claims from caregivers of past oral feedings are remarkable, and, based on the autopsy findings and medical records, these feedings were potentially harmful or, at least, extremely dangerous to Mrs. Schiavo's health and welfare. Mrs. Schiavo's postmortem lung examination had findings that could be considered consistent with aspiration of secretions; however, her decline and dehydration over almost 2 weeks could also have played a role in these findings.
- This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons. -Duckecho
- No one has ever suggested that she could have fully recovered. That's a strawman. But many doctors said that she could be helped, and could improve with therapy. The fact that Thogmartin found that her brain was 50% intact supports that possibility. Felos/Cranford/M.Schiavo (and their supporters here) said that such improvement was impossible because she had no cerebral cortex. I said that was nonsense, which the autopsy report has now confirmed. NCdave 20:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Read the autopsy report. He didn't say the brain was 50% intact. The mass of the brain was about 50% of normal, but it, too, was atrophied. Duckecho 05:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- These are all definitive rebuttals of the many claims you have made. Please just stop. Duckecho 16:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Rubbish. The only thing on that list that resembles a "rebuttal" of any "claim" I have made was his opinion, stated to reporters, that she could not have been sustained with oral food and hydration. I said it was undetermined; he thinks that she could not have. But let's see if he was sure enough of that opinion to put it into the autopsy report. The weight of her brain is something that a coroner can determine with certainty, her level of impairment with half a brain is not. NCdave 20:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Oops, caught you not having read the autopsy report. He absolutely did say she absolutely could not have been sustained with oral food and hydration. When's your report coming out? Duckecho 05:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- One thing the autopsy absolutely proves is that Felos, Cranford, et al were flat-out lying when they claimed that Terri had no cerebral cortex. But we all already knew that, didn't we? NCdave 20:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'd be willing to take you up on that. Terri Schiavo no longer had a functioning cerebral cortex. Not every neuron was removed, but the conclusion that the functionality of that brain reigion was destroyed can be made with confidence beyond any reasonable doubt. -L33tminion
- Most of the human brain is cerebral cortex. She had about 50% of the brain mass of a normal adult. 100-50=50. That means that half of her brain was not destroyed. Lots of people function reasonably well with less. NCdave 20:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I do think M. Schiavo's legal and medical team were trustworthy. I also think that all doctors involved in this case were mmaking honest efforts to correctly diagnose Terri's condition. -L33tminion
- You know that she had only 50% atrophy, and you know that Felos/Cranford/etc. had CT scans showing them that fact, and you know they nevertheless claimed she had no remaining cerebral cortex -- a flat-out lie. That's proof positive that they were dishonest. NCdave 20:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- You haven't read the autopsy report. It does not say she had 50% atrophy. She had severe atrophy. She only had half the normal brain mass, but it, too, was atrophied. So, let's see, you claimed that the 1991 bone scan proved that Michael abused Terri, and we now know that the autopsy report thoroughly debunked that report. That's proof positive that you are dishonest. Duckecho 05:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- All the autopsy reports I've seen say nothing about the cerebral cortex specifically because that information was already obviously clear from brain scans taken well before Terri was dead. However, the autopsy also weighed and measured Terri's brain and found that it was only half the size and mass of a normal human brain. If someone is missing half of their brain, the chance of them remaining conscious seems just about nil. As Dr. Stephen Nelson, an examiner present at the autopsy, said, "There's nothing in her autopsy report that is inconsistent with a persistent vegetative state." --L33tminion (talk) 17:00, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Nor is there any proof that she was in a persistent vegetative state, because, as almost any doctor knows, 50% atrophy does not mean that a person cannot be conscious.
- Lots of folks function quite well with half a brain, or less. That's why Cranford/Felos et al lied, and claimed that Terri had no cerebral cortex: because every doctor is aware of cases like Christina Santhouse, and most have heard of much more severe cases. NCdave 21:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I can tell by the above that you have not read the autopsy report. First, Terri Schiavo did not have half a brain. The mass of brain tissue that she had remaining was less than half of a normal adult of her age, but I'm not saying that to quibble over half or less than half. The half that was left was also severely atrophied. There were few neurons left. She was unable to do the things that we said she was unable to do, whether it was half a brain, less than half a brain, or no cortex at all. She didn't have the brain power to do them. Duckecho 05:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- As for your Christina Santhouse (I don't know whether she's the apples or the oranges in your argument) example, there are a number of differences, but the principle one is that the removal of the hemisphere was done when she was a child and she was able to compensate. The article that I looked at cited doctors as saying that couldn't be done as an adult. Duckecho 05:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- John Lorber? Well, I looked all through that search for something remotely resembling a legitimate source of information and couldn't find one. I did read the article from the alternative science website but couldn't stop laughing once I got to the part about someone living a regular life with 1mm of brain tissue atop the spinal cord. I couldn't finish the article. Duckecho 05:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The section on the autopsy is not a section for arguing for or against the credibility of the litigants. patsw 17:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I started this section, with a prediction that the autopsy report would show that Felos/Cranford et al blatantly misrepresented Terri's condition. I didn't realise that it was being released as I was typing, but that is the topic of this section, and the autopsy report does prove that Felos/Cranford/etc. lied about Terri's condition. NCdave 21:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Took the coroner long enough didn't it? I'm not glad that Shaivo suffered so much damage, but I do hope the findings of the autopsy put all this nastiness to rest once and for all. Wjbean
- The autopsy was conducted in early April, I believe. There are probably legal and prcedural reasons for why the results were not released until today. Khanartist 17:24, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, the delay was at the request of Michael Schiavo.--ghost 17:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The autopsy report includes many subreports from various specialists and laboratories. The subreport from the neuropathologist wasn't finished until June 8th. The coroner wrote his summary on June 13th, and it was released two days later. Blame the day on the neuropathologist, who wrote a detailed nine page summary with fourteen references. -O^O
The autopsy has an internal inconsistency: "complications of anoxic encephopathy" (i.e. loss of oxygen to the brain) on one page and on another page "dehyrdation". I guess we get to pick apart what "mechanism of death" and "cause" mean and why they are not one and the same. patsw 17:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- This is my understanding of the legal distinctions:
- Cause of Death = the underlying injury or disease that ultimately led to death.
- Manner of Death = Natural, Suicide, Homicide, Accident, Unknown.
- Mechanism of Death = the actual biological or chemical process that led to death.
- Hope this helps -O^O
Suggestions on Wording
- Add "(loss of oxygen to the brain)" to Anoxic Encephalopathy
- Remove "The only medical evidence..." -- here the autopsy report is talking about what they didn't find, or neutrally reword it to "No evidence was found to indicate an eating disorder". patsw 18:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say "No evidence was found" because there was some, it was just minor. Her post-resuscitation potassium level and history of remote weight loss appear to be the only evidence that indicate that she may have had some type of eating disorder. -O^O 18:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- That wasn't a finding of the autopsy, it was to explain why among all the possible things they didn't find, they mention they sought but didn't find evidence of an eating disorder in the autopsy. The same reasoning could be applied to say, for example, there was 'just minor' evidence of strangulation, namely it provides another explanation for the undisputed loss of oxygen to the brain. patsw 19:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'm taking a break for a few hours to let the page solidify. You should make your changes if you think the improve the article, after all, everyone is an editor here. I think that maybe we are trying to say different things. The coronor's report summarizes both the autopsy itself, as well as her complete medical record. It is correct to say that no evidence whatsoever of an eating disorder or strangulation were found in the autopsy itself.
- However, looking at the report, we can see how the coroner treats the two separate questions. He does mentione that her medical record gives very weak support to the idea that she had an eating disorder, with the only evidence being the potassium level and history of weight loss. He seems to basically reject the eating disorder, but he does make a point of mentioning the above evidence, and to point out that it is weak.
- For strangulation, he makes a stronger case for the answer being "no". He points to all the examinations and radiographs that were done immediately after her collapse, and points out that they found nothing. He also points out that the autopsy would be unlikely to find anything this far down the line.
- So, I guess my point is, you could honestly say that the "autopsy" found no evidence of either. But when you read the complete report, he seems to give a more resounding "no" to strangulation than he does to bulimia. However, even the bulimia he seems very reluctant to accept. -O^O 19:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- That wasn't a finding of the autopsy, it was to explain why among all the possible things they didn't find, they mention they sought but didn't find evidence of an eating disorder in the autopsy. The same reasoning could be applied to say, for example, there was 'just minor' evidence of strangulation, namely it provides another explanation for the undisputed loss of oxygen to the brain. patsw 19:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
NCdave thrashing the talk page
Cripes. NCdave is in his death throes over this autopsy report, and has vomitted up just about every old conspiracy theory he's come up with since this whole thing started. Can we start deleting his crap on sight? Give him a sub-page to rant on? It is impossible to get anything productive done when he's dumped a bucket of crap on the talk page and I can't read anything by any of the real, working editors. FuelWagon 22:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- It's pretty obvious that he won't accept any evidence that doesn't support his POV, isn't it? -- ChrisO 22:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, but it don't make it any easier having to put up with his assinine self. FuelWagon 23:12, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Cardiac arrest
At least twice in her life she had a heart stoppage which is called Cardiac arrest, and this is sometimes also called a "heart attack" by nondoctors. The first time may have been due to throwing up or caffein. The second time was caused by lack of water. Both times damaged her brain to the point of some thinking she was legally brain dead. the second time, keeping the body alive in spite of being brain dead was not done 4.250.198.67 20:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)\
- Do you have a cite for that? The autopsy found no evidence of it. patsw 21:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- 4.250.198.67 is exactly right. No cite needed. His (or her) statement is based on Terri's well documented history. He's saying the first cardiac arrest was when she collapsed in 1990. The second cardiac arrest was on 30 March when she died. He (or she) just sort of went around the horn to state it. Evidence of the first arrest is in the Humana Hospital Discharge Summary. Evidence of the second arrest is that an autopsy was performed. They don't autopsy live people. Duckecho 00:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The brain damage is from lack of oxygen to the brain. The lack of oxygen is from a lack of blood flow. The lack of blood flow is from the heart stopping. Read up on the relevant nouns and verbs. Its like a set of dominoes falling with one causing the other. 4.250.198.67 21:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Also exactly right. Duckecho 00:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- 4.250.l98.67 your speculation about "may have been due to" isn't part of the record -- But since it is a obvioiusly biased statement in favor of Michael's POV, you have found a cheerleader in Duckecho and perhaps the others who are determined to introduce that POV to the article. If you have a cite that she was medically determined to be "brain dead" in February 1990, that would be useful to add here. patsw 12:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Whoopsie. Let's not paint me with that brush. Although I may not have been as clear as I could have been, I was referring to the instances of cardiac arrest as being correct. I don't and haven't ever used or countenanced the phrase brain dead. And I wasn't rising in support of the may have been, either. Duckecho 13:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "Her cardiac arrest was a consequence and not a cause of the loss of oxygen to the brain." Your edit summary. You couldn't have it more backwards. Cardiac arrest is a stopping of the heart. When the heart stops, the blood flow stops. When the blood flow stops, oxygen isn't carried to vital organs, such as the brain. What caused the heart to stop is the hypokalemia (low potassium). What isn't known is how the potassium level got to be that way. Duckecho 13:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Autopsy and oral feeding
from page 34 of 39 of the autopsy report: FuelWagon 22:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Could Mrs. Schiavo eat by mouth? The neuropathologic findings, oropharyngeal anatomic findings, and medical records clearly indicate that Mrs. Schiavo would not have been able to consume sustenance safely andlor in suffkient quantity by mouth. In fact, the records and findings are such that oral feedings in quantities sufficient to sustain life would have certainly resulted in aspiration. Swallowing evaluations and speech pathology evaluations repeatedly record that Mrs. Schiavo was a high risk for aspiration and not a candidate for oral nutritionhydration. Although in her early rehabilitation, she received speech pathology services, she was later repeatedly evaluated and determined not to be a candidate for speechldysphagia therapy. According to medical records, she had been treated in the past for aspiration pneumonia. Thus, Mrs. Schiavo was dependent on nutrition and hydration via her feeding tube. Claims from caregivers of past oral feedings are remarkable, and, based on the autopsy findings and medical records, these feedings were potentially harmful or, at least, extremely dangerous to Mrs. Schiavo's health and welfare. Mrs. Schiavo's postmortem lung examination had findings that could be considered consistent with aspiration of secretions; however, her decline and dehydration over almost 2 weeks could also have played a role in these findings.
Autopsy and brain condition
from page 16 of 39 of autopsy report: FuelWagon 22:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Brain weight is an important index of its pathological state. Brain weight is correlated with height, weight, age, and sex. The decendent's brain was grossly abnormal and weighed only 615 grams. That weight is less than half of the expected tabular weight for a decendent of her adult age of 41 years. By way of comparison, the brain of Karen Ann Quinlan weighed 835 grams at the time of her death, after 10 years in a similar persistent vegetative state.
Bulimia (again)
I thought we had pretty well resolved that identifying bulimia as a cause of the hypokalemia was undocumentable. I know we had, because I took the lead in changing the article to reflect that (by taking it out). The autopsy report further proves that bulimia as a cause isn't supportable. That's not to say it wasn't the cause, but the only evidence to support it, says the ME, is the serum potassium levels on admission to Humana, and they could very well have been depressed due to other causes, particularly in Terri's resuscitation and treatment. User:Neutrality has put it back in. I'm going to wait a bit for others' thoughts on it, and if no one strongly disagrees with me, I'm taking it back out. Duckecho 00:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Appropriately qualifying it would make more sense since it's the best theory going and big bucks were paid on evidence that it was the case. And if bulimia normally wouldn't have left evidence, a lack of evidence can't now be counted against a conclusion reached earlier by experts in front of judge and jury. 4.250.168.126 07:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Big bucks were paid on evidence that it was the case. Can you cite a source that confirms this? I couldn't. The only material extant from the malpractice trial that I could find is a brief snippet purporting to be from Michael's testimony that supports his reason for studying nursing (and it's a suspicious source). There is nothing available that indicates bulimia was found as fact at that trial. This is exactly why we editors agreed to leave it out in the first place. Duckecho 13:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- For the sake of accuracy, "long thought to have been induced by bulimia" should be "incorrectly thought to have been induced by bulimia", (if this appears in the introduction at all). patsw 12:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- (in response to Patsw) I don't think that's any better. Throgmortin didn't rule it out—I believe he said the evidence to support it isn't conclusive. Duckecho 13:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thogmartin ruled myocardial infarction out: Mrs. Schiavo's heart was anatomically normal without any areas of recent or remote myocardial infarction. Overall, the cause of her loss of oxygen to the brain is undetermined but myocardial infarction is ruled out, as most major newspapers are reporting today, including the New York Times[4]. If there is another means by which bulimia could lead to a loss of oxygen to the brain without causing a myocardial infarction, it isn't discussed in the autopsy. patsw 13:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "You end up with a 26-year-old that used to be heavy, that now lost the weight, is reveling in her thinness now, enjoying her life, and doesn't want to gain the weight back," Dr. Thogmartin said. "And if that's a bulimic, there's a lot of bulimics out there. It's just not enough." patsw 13:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- You're going to have to learn the difference between myocardial infarct (heart attack) and cardiac arrest. This is now the third time I have pointed this out to you. It was cardiac arrest that caused the loss of oxygen to the brain. She did not have a heart attack. I don't recall anyone ever claiming she had a heart attack. Please drop the heart attack angle. Take some time to learn the difference. Overall, the cause of her loss of oxygen to the brain is undetermined. That isn't correct. It's been known from the beginning that she was in cardiac arrest and that was what caused the lack of oxygen. It's even known what caused the cardiac arrest—hypokalemia. What isn't known is how she came to be hypokalemic. That's where the speculation about bulimia comes in. But myocardial infarction is ruled out. That's true. I don't know of anyone claiming she had a heart attack, except you. Why is that? Duckecho 13:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since the bulimia theory and quotes from the autopsy report are mentioned later in the article, my preference would be just to leave out bulimia from the opening statement, and just to have "caused by cardiac arrest". "Suspected of having been induced by an eating disorder" raises the question "who suspected this?" The coroner's report seems to discourage that theory. I'm not an advocate of the Michael-strangled-Terri theory, but that was also "suspected" by some people, including at least one medical doctor. I imagine there would be an uproar if someone put in "suspected of having been induced by attempted strangulation". Surely it's more neutral to omit speculation from the opening, especially when we don't identify the people who held these suspicions? I recall reading somewhere that Wikipedia policy doesn't really favour agentless passives. The theories and documents can be dealt with adequately later. Any objections if I take it out? Ann Heneghan 17:13, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I was refering to "In 1992, Mr. Schiavo, on behalf of Mrs. Schiavo and himself, brought a medical malpractice lawsuit against the obstetrician who had been treating Schiavo for infertility, claiming that the doctor's failure to diagnose Schiavo's eating disorder caused her current condition. At the conclusion of the trial, the jury found that Schiavo had been bulimic and that the obstetrician's failure to diagnose this condition had caused her hypokalemia and subsequent cardiac arrest." and someone's later comment (whether true or not I don't know) that bulimia would not have been expected to leave evidence to be found at this autopsy. So if big bucks were paid based on a jury's findings after hearing experts and further evidence wasn't expected to be found in the autopsy, then finding no evidence neither adds to nor subtracts from the jury's conclusions that the doctor's failure to diagnose her eating disorder was contributory to her cardiac arrest. Am I missing something? 4.250.201.181 18:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Scare quotes around "undetermined"
Can the person who added the scare quotes explain why they are there? It looks like editorializing on the cororner's verdict. patsw 12:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- They're now gone. Duckecho 13:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1991 Bone scan report
That whistling noise you hear is the sound of one of the blogosphere's pet talking points in their Michael-abused-Terri theory crashing and burning after a thorough debunking by the autopsy report. At best the bone scan report likely started from a false premise (probably a misunderstanding of the description of the brain injury) that there had been head trauma and devolved from there. Key word: osteoporosis. Duckecho 00:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If only we could be so lucky. My guess is that at least some of the more extreme knuckleheads will claim the doctors who performed the autopsy are in on the conspiracy with Felos and Greer. Never underestimate the power of a moron with a conspiracy theory. FuelWagon 13:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "Never underestimate the power of a moron with a conspiracy theory." LOL. That's classic. I'm having that printed as a bumper sticker...want one?--ghost 22:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Autopsy Report
So now that the autopsy report has been published/released, is there anyone that still disputes the findings asserted therein? Or can we actually get a few of the constantly-disputed issues settled? Proto 13:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The biggest problem I see right now is volume. After more than two months of judicious tinkering to get to a pretty decent article we have now been subjected to a barrage of edits (> 60 as of the time in my sig since the autopsy report came out less than 24 hours ago), most of them drive-by with no participation in talk or consensus from others. And a lot of the edits have recklessly undone some careful work previously arrived at by some excellent colloquy. It's going to take weeks to undo the mess that's been left. One moron thinks we need to leave broken links in the article. Another placed an "update" tag on the article less than 30 minutes after the release of the autopsy report. Most of the editors have not been seen before on this article in the more than three months I've been involved with it. Duckecho 14:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Proto, that would be nice. I won't hold my breath though. Never underestimate the power of an idiot with a conspiracy theory. Duck, I think we're seeing a bunch of the "murder" conspiricists rage against the report, fight it, deny it, anything to hold onto their belief that Michael was an evil dragon to be slain and they were on the side of good and just and right. I'd say give it another couple of days and maybe it'll calm down. In the mean time, just revert any driveby crap that gets put in. FuelWagon 14:22, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Problems that we've already seen: using the autopsy report to attack or speculate on the credibility of statements of witnesses or medical personnel, and reading into the report conclusions that lack the context of a time frame. For example, we don't know the rate of the degeneration of Terri's ability to see. All the autopsy reports is that she was blind at the time of her death, so it cannot be concluded anyone who reported Terri's ability to track motion with her eyes is "a liar". The report doesn't "prove" Terri was in a PVS, but shows the condition of her brain was consistent with a diagnosis of PVS, etc. Going forward, the problem will be understating/overstating what's in the report. Frankly, at this point I'd just as concerned with the POV-pushers from Michael's side as I am from the Schindler's side. patsw 14:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- patsw, that's a bit of a persecution complex. the history since the autopsy report came out shows two edits that refer to credibility,
- "This meant that Schiavo was physically unable to respond to visual stimuli, despite assertions to the contrary." [5]
- "He also said that she would be unable to eat or drink if given food by mouth as was requested by her parents." [6]
- The first is a stretch to say that it attacks credibility when it follows right after teh sentence that Terri was ocipitally blind. Hey, whaddya know, she is blind. Crying "we don't know she was that way when so and so examined her" is really a stretch. 90 minute exam, 30 seconds of eye contact. Could just as easily be random motions. You completely ignored my Ouija board analogy, I noticed.
- The second is quoting Thogmartin at his press conference. cries of NPOV violation for that are just plain silly. Of course you removed both comments. [7] with the explanation "Just the autosy report in this section, refrain from speculating on how it affects anyone's credibilty". Uhm, yeah, a doctor who examined terri's body can't be quoted at a press conference, we really need to stick to what's strictly in his autopsy report. Yeah, right. Nice try.
- Meanwhile, we've had at least two direct attacks of vandalism by folks who think Terri was murdered. "pinko commie freaks ===SCUMBAGS MURDER CHRISTIANS=== and scumbnag "doctors" condone genocide of the christain race and all the hard working blue color americans there pinko freaks further alientate themselves from" [8] and "who was murdered by Florida's Judge George W. Greer" [9]
- So, we've got two edits that vaguely refer to credibility issues, but one is quoting a doctor at a press conference and the other is expanding on the facts in the autopsy report. And we've got two vandalism attacks by people who are obviously unhinged and think we're all out to murder Terri. Yeah, somehow, I'm not feeling these are equivalent. FuelWagon 15:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I would say that the autopsy report doesn't so much prove Terri Schiavo was in a PVS; it confirms she was in a PVS. At some point you have to accept a document as being correct. The autopsy writers were very careful not to commit themselves to anything that wasn't 100% verifiable and accurate, they stated facts rather than theories (as an autopsy report should). I think anyone who disputes the official auopsy's findings automatically gains themselves the title of crank. Once the furore over the release of the report has calmed down and the page has been edited by consensus to reflect the autopsy findings, we'll see if anyone other than the cranks disputes the article then (and - praise Allah - the POV tag being removed). I'm probably being a big dumb idealist, though. Proto 15:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There's a POV tag? Actually, it's been gone for a while. The one crank who kept lobbying for it (and edit warring over it) pretty well neutralized his argument when he said, "the article [was] far from neutral" and "far from accurate" but his idea of a compromise was to settle for the POV tag. Hmmm, so it's inaccurate but we're not going to label it as inaccurate? Wow. You can't argue with that kind of logic. The best, though was when the peer review found it reasonably neutral and outside readers called it 1337 (I had to look that up; I guess I'm just not hip, but apparently it's a good thing). Even the mediator said you couldn't miss that both sides of the question were represented in the article. Duckecho 16:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The autopsy report pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin that contains "kill Terri" conspiracy theories. Praise the...whatever. I think that once the conspiracy theorists have calmed down a bit and/or have a new conspiracy theory to scramble after this article will attain front-page status. Though I'm in no position to pass out kudos I'd like to just the same. This has been a monumental effort requiring patience rivaling Job's. Wjbean 16:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The autopsy found no evidence of strangulation and no evidence of bulimia. People emotionally committed to either explanation for her collapse are therefore disappointed. Although completed long before the autopsy was made public, Silent Witness : The Untold Story of Terri Schiavo's Death by Mark Fuhrman ISBN 0060853379 is going to be another source of theories regarding her collapse. patsw 18:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Weight of Terri's Brain
I'm wondering what the relevance is of the comparison of Terri's brain weight with Karen Ann Quinlan's. I don't claim any medical expertise, but wouldn't the brain of someone who had gone for nearly two weeks without any food or water lose a lot of weight regardless of what it weighed the day the tube was removed? Karen Ann Quinlan died of pneumonia, not of starvation and dehydration. I wonder why the autopsy report didn't compare weight with for example Nancy Cruzan. I appreciate that it was part of the published report, but since it seems to be an unfair and irrelevant comparison, I don't really think it should figure in the article, unless the following sentence clarifies that Karen Ann Quinlan had not had food and water cut off for thirteen days. Ann Heneghan 17:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not a medico, either, but I'm pretty sure that when a highly regarded pathologist puts it in the report it has relevance. Moreover, while a case might be made for some small reduction in weight due to dehydration, the effect of dehydration has more to do with electrolyte imbalance that ulitmately leads to final cardiac arrest than with loss of any significant body mass. A death by starvation would have been more likely to result in loss of body mass (possibly some brain), but the report is clear that she didn't die of that—that there was evidence of fatty tissue contraindicating malnourishment. More to the point, arguing about the different manners of death masks the true significance of the brain weight. It was less than half normal. The vast majority of that loss did not occur in the last thirteen days of her life. That's verified by earlier CT scans (and also rebuts speculation by Patsw that maybe she had a lot of vision right up to the end). In any event, one certainly cannot try to attribute more than a few grams (if one can at all) of the 220 grams difference between Quinlan and Schiavo to the different mechanisms of death. Even more to the point, the issue of the brain isn't even about that difference. It's about severe atrophy. It was significantly more severe than Quinlan who everyone acknowledges was in a PVS. It's about not only the size in comparison to a normal adult of that age (even accounting for 13 days of no nourishment or hydration), but the state of the remainder; think neurons. Finally, I'm going to ask you what I'm asking everyone who raises these questions—have you read the autopsy report? Duckecho 18:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I think I made it clear that this was just a query. I don't claim any expertise, but just feel, based on common sense, that one would lose a lot of weight in all parts of the body if one did not eat or drink for thirteen days. Yes, I know she died of dehydration, not starvation, but in she did undergo both, and both would have caused a weight loss. I would have felt more comfortable if the report had either made a comparison with the brain of Nancy Cruzan, or had specifically stated that the thirteen days of starvation and dehydration would have had little effect on the weight of the brain. I don't think Patsw said or implied that she had "a lot of vision". All that he seems to have said about her vision on this page is, "we don't know the rate of the degeneration of Terri's ability to see . . . . it cannot be concluded anyone who reported Terri's ability to track motion with her eyes is 'a liar'." And yes, I have read the report. Of course. Ann Heneghan 20:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "it seems to be an unfair and irrelevant comparison" Why? Because the doctor performing the autopsy made the comparison? Perhaps we should go fishing for a doctor who DIDN"T examine the body and keep fishing until we find one that compares brain weights with the one YOU want. FuelWagon 18:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- FuelWagon, I am quite sure that the wording of my post was clear, and that unless someone was actually trying to be confrontational, he would understand that my reason for feeling that it might be an unfair and irrelevant comparison was not because the comparison was made by the doctor who performed the autopsy, but because Karen Ann Quinlan did not suffer the weight loss that would be expected from thirteen days of starvation and dehydration. Ann Heneghan 20:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I've spent some time since I first saw Ann's comment to find out how 13 days of dehydration affects the mass of the brain rather than arguing here, or if Terri's pre-dehyration weight is recorded so that can be compared to her post-dehyration weight. patsw 18:40, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I believe this is answered on page 13 of the PDF file, which says: "At autopsy, the brain weighed 615 grams. A total of 645 mililiters of cereobrospinal fluid (weighing 678 grams) were recovered upon opening the skull and exposing the brain." This would fit with the 2002 CT scan, which showed that a large area of brain tissue had been replaced by fluid. Note that the weight of the brain and cerebrospinal fluid were close to being the same - that missing 50% of brain mass was presumably replaced by the fluid. -- ChrisO 20:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Ann, I'm no more of a Dr. than most of the other editors. That said, the body works to protect the central nervous system at the expense of all other parts of the body, including the heart. For examples of this, look into hypothermia. Although Terri's dehydration had an undeniable effect on her body, the brain is the last place where we should expect to see a reduction in tissue fluid. Thus, it makes sense that measuring the mass of the brain would give the pathologists a clearer picture of it's pre-dehydration condition than a similar procedure would for any other organ (for example the liver).--ghost 22:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nurses Law and Johnson
Ann Heneghan says in her edit summary of a recent edit, "[a]lso, Nurses Law and Johnson DID report (suspicions of) wrong-doing." They made reports? Can you provide a citation that confirms that? Duckecho 18:30, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The nurses' affidavits, including Nurse Iyer's, were available on Terrisfight.org and on Zimp.org. Both sites seem to be shut down now, although Terrisfight is due to reopen as an educational site at some stage. As I said in an earlier posting, many affidavits were originally available as a scanned pdf file, so that you could see that lawyer's stamp, etc. Some of them were later changed to html files. Although the websites are down, I have the three documents on my hard disk, as I saved them recently. Only the Johnson affidavit is in pdf format in the copies that I have, although I think that I saw the others in pdf format at some stage.
- Nurse Johnson's sworn affidavit is dated 28 August 2003. It is stamped with Patricia Anderson's official seal. Nurse Johnson says that she worked at Sable Palms Nursing Home for about two years, and she believed that the events she was mentioning took place around 1993. She says:
- I learned. . . that the husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terri. This surprised me, as I did not think a guardian could go against doctor's orders like that, but I was assured that a guardian could, and that this guardian had gone against Terri's doctor's orders. . . . Once I wanted to put a cloth in Terri's hand to keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted to do this, as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of rehabilitation.
- That last bit seems to back up a similar accusation made by Nurse Iyer. Nurse Johnson ends by saying that she became so disillusioned as a result of all this that she quit her job.
- Nurse Law's sworn affidavit is dated September 2003. She says she worked at the Palm Gardens nursing home from March 1997 to mid-summer 1997. She says:
- I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them. . . . On one occasion Michael Schiavo arrived with his girlfriend, and they entered Terri’s room together. . . . After they left, Olga told me that Terri was extremely agitated and upset, and wouldn’t react to anyone. When she was upset, which was usually the case after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours. We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left. . . . Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn’t trust Michael. When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and some times had a cold sweat. . . . Michael would override the orders of the doctors and nurses to make sure Terri got no treatment. . . . When Terri would get a UTI or was sick, Michael’s mood would improve.
- The copy of the Law affidavit on my hard disk is in html, not pdf. However, as I said before, I saw many affidavits in pdf form originally, before they disappeared from the websites. Also, we know from Greer's report [10] that such an affidavit did exist, that it was in favour of the Schindlers' case, and that Greer simply dismissed it as incredible, without calling as witness any of the people mentioned in the affidavit (Olga, or Ewan Morris) who might have backed up her testimony.
- I make no claims as to the truthfulness of these nurses, other than to point out that they had less motive for lying than Michael Schiavo, his brother, and his sister-in-law. My edit summary was simply to state that it was incorrect for the article to state that "none of the other workers at Palm Garden or any medical staff reported any wrong-doing." Ann Heneghan 23:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- You are partially correct. Such an affidavit(s) did exist. There was a total of 4 from staff members. So, the sentence is not fact.
- That said, Judge Greer addressed the issue of the affidavits being incredulous, in part because the contradicited one another and previous testimony. He noted numerous other problems with the testimony in the link Ann provided. Therefore, we should handle any reference to them with very large grain of salt. In fact, a salt lick may be more appropriate.--ghost 23:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I have to quibble with you, Ann. The statement in the article that you excised said, "..and none of the other workers at Palm Garden or any medical staff reported any wrong-doing." Report in this context and in the commonly understood sense of the word means to tell authorities in a timely manner that something is wrong. By your admission, one's idea of timely was five years after the fact and the other's was ten years after the fact. That is not reporting. That is something else. If they had reported (in the commonly understood sense of the word with regard to wrongdoing) within a reasonable period, e.g. the next day, the next week, maybe even within thirty days, I would agree that the statement is suspect. But a ten or even five year period means they didn't report any wrongdoing, nor did anyone else. I'm afraid your case for excising the referenced sentence doesn't pass muster. Duckecho 00:06, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I have looked up the verb "report" in the Oxford English Dictionary. There is absolutely nothing that implies that the verb "to report" means to tell authorities "in a timely manner". Can you find any dictionary that gives such a definition? The only justification for putting that bit in would be if you added something like "within a five-year period". If you state, without clarification, that none of the medical staff "reported" any wrongdoing, you are inserting something which is false, inaccurate, and misleading. It implies that there were no other statements to support Iyer's testimony. Think of a statement like, "My wife is a spinster" or "My sister is an only child". The meaning of "wife" contradicts the meaning of "spinster"; the meaning of "sister" contradicts the meaning of "only child". Both sentences startle you, don't they? Now think of this sentence: "She reported it twenty years later." That doesn't startle; there is absolutely no lexical contradiction. You may think that the nurses should have reported it earlier. You may think that the fact that they didn't do so undermines their credibility. Nevertheless, you cannot say that they didn't report it. Otherwise, you might as well state that Michael "never reported" Terri's end-of-life wishes. After all, that report was many years after the fact. Ann Heneghan 00:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Your linguistic experience serves you ill here. Perhaps the word is used differently in the UK, but here report in the context of reporting an act to the authorities absolutely does imply in a timely manner. For example, my Merriam-Webster source lists as one usage: "to make known to the proper authorities <report a fire>." It strikes me that there's quite the nexus between reporting a fire and in a timely manner as there's not much point in reporting time sensitive events if one doesn't do it early enough to intervene in the event. I would suspect that reporting a robbery, attempted murder (hmmm, that might have applied here), rape, would all be things that would be pointless if your version of its meaning were universal. "Oh, I meant to tell the police about that rape that happened ten years ago." In this country, believe it or not, there are many places that make "failure to report a crime" an unlawful act, so yes, there absolutely is an implied in a timely manner to our version of the word. Duckecho 02:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Take it out, leave it in, doesn't matter to me. We're looking at the last gasps of breaths of the great conspiracy. No one reported a problem until YEARS later, when the Schindlers went fishing for affidavits. (meanwhile, didn't Wolfson report the nursing home employees all said Michael was a great guardian?) And all those fishing affidavits read like the Salem witch trials, casting doubts, making accusations, but not a single shred of hard evidence. Iyer's affidavit is hilarious where it says "it could be medically possible that Michael was injecting Terri with insulin" 5 times. Not a hard accusation, just "possible". And not a single shred of hard evidence to back it up. Whatever. Some people want to chase ghosts. As a side note: The paragraph in the article mentions Law. But who the heck is Johnson someone mentioned above? The article says 4 speech therapists and two nurses, Law and Iyer. Is she a therapist, or did the article miscount nurses? FuelWagon 00:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Bulimia
I was refering in the previous bulimia section to "In 1992, Mr. Schiavo, on behalf of Mrs. Schiavo and himself, brought a medical malpractice lawsuit against the obstetrician who had been treating Schiavo for infertility, claiming that the doctor's failure to diagnose Schiavo's eating disorder caused her current condition. At the conclusion of the trial, the jury found that Schiavo had been bulimic and that the obstetrician's failure to diagnose this condition had caused her hypokalemia and subsequent cardiac arrest." and someone's later comment (whether true or not I don't know) that bulimia would not have been expected to leave evidence to be found at this autopsy. So if big bucks were paid based on a jury's findings after hearing experts and further evidence wasn't expected to be found in the autopsy, then finding no evidence neither adds to nor subtracts from the jury's conclusions that the doctor's failure to diagnose her eating disorder was contributory to her cardiac arrest. Am I missing something? 4.250.201.181 18:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, you are missing something. The jury found negligence on the part of OB/GYN in not ordering the tests which would have detected a potassium imbalance alleged to have been caused by bulimia. The jury did not need to find that Terri was in fact bulimic to find this liability. patsw 20:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- That may be true, but it doesn't mean they didn't. We don't know that they found that she was bulimic or that they didn't, since so far as I am aware, the transcript, order, or other results of that trial are not in the public domain. Duckecho 01:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Also, as far as I'm aware, the doctor who was found guilty of malpractice appealed and won the appeal. Ann Heneghan 20:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- From the Terri Schiavo Timeline Terri Schiavo is awarded $250,000 in an out-of-court medical malpractice settlement with one of her physicians. Michael brings a medical malpractice suit against the obstetrician who had been treating Terri for infertility. Jury finds the obstetrician had not properly diagnosed Terri's condition. The case is appealed. The medical malpractice suit against Terri's obstetrician is settled before an appeal is decided. Terri receives $750,000. Michael receives $300,000. FuelWagon 02:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Then where did the money come from? There was an out of court settlement with one doctor prior to trial, but I don't believe that's where the $750K/300K came from. My understanding is that the doctor who was found guilty at trial (to the tune of several million $) appealed and then settled with the Schiavo's before the appeal was heard. And it's my understanding that's where the $750K/300K came from. Do you have something different? Duckecho 01:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, this is more minutia. Yes, accuracy is important. But I can't fathom why anyone would spend so much time arguing against bulimia unless they wanted desparately to keep the "michael strangled terri" conspiracy alive. FuelWagon 02:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dead is a matter of definition
"Quill stressed that, despite a lack of evidence of any electrical activity in her cerebral cortex, Schiavo is not technically brain-dead.
"In brain death the cortex is not functioning -- as in Terri Schiavo's case -- but also the base of the brain isn't functioning," he explained. Neurologists agree that shutdown of both the cortex and the base of the brain constitutes "a medical reason to stop treatment," he said.
However, the base of the Schiavo's brain still functions, and although "there's still a lot of discussion, there's no consensus at all [among experts] that this constitutes death," Quill said.
This means patients like Schiavo hover in an ideological and medical limbo, somewhere between life and death." [11]
On the other hand here is a case of a brain dead woman being kept alive "A 26-year-old pregnant woman with cancer whose brain function ceased last month is being kept alive with a respirator in hopes she can have a very premature baby who has a chance to survive. Susan Torres, a researcher at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), lost consciousness May 7 when an undiagnosed brain tumor caused a stroke while she dined at home. Her husband, Jason Torres, says doctors told him Susan's brain functions have stopped." [12] 4.250.201.181 19:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The autopsy report referenced in the article near the end says
"8. What was the cause and manner of death? Mrs. Schiavo suffered a severe anoxic brain injury. The cause of which cannot be determined with reasonable medical certainty. The manner of death will therefore be certified as undetermined."
Am I the only one that sees this as saying medically speaking maybe she died 15 years ago? After all, if she was alive till killed by dehydration, then where is the uncertainty? 4.250.201.181 20:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, you're not. You've come to the crux of one of the tragic paradoxes surrounding this case for many of us. If Terri did "die" 15 yrs ago, then why the controversy? If she didn't "die" until March 31st, 2005, then was the removal feeding tube truely the cause of her death? You may have to answer that one for yourself. BTW, you may wish to become a registered User.[edit] Your questions add value.--ghost 23:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please don't pressure people to become logged-in users. Doing so or not doing so doesn't make anyone more or less a participating "member" in the editing of Wikipedia--the principle of which is that anybody can edit it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Please don't make this page a discussion board for what defines death. As Tony just said anyone can edit it but Death already has a page. patsw 12:22, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I don't see why we can't handle this question with a little more compassion than that, Patsw. This Anon user is asking a legitimate question for which there may never be an answer. All I suggested is that we all need to answer such things for ourselves. But there's no need to slam the question.--ghost 13:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Life Prolonging Procedures
The long quote which appears in the article from Perry Fine which denies that Terri did not feel pain as she was dying of dehydration is not balanced by a opinion from a expert who holds the opinion that Terri did feel pain with his or her reasons for holding this opinion. I will add some balance to this section. patsw 12:22, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I could be wrong, but I've read that paragraph five times now and each time I read it I come away with the impression that Fine didn't deny that Terri did not feel pain, he denied that she did feel pain. I would be grateful if someone would help me out with my understanding of it. Those double negatives can be tricky for comprehension. He also implies that people shouldn't assume that because their own stomach growls when they haven't eaten in a few hours that someone in a terminal condition has the same experience. Duckecho 15:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that with Patsw that it's not balanced. I also question the relevance of what Fine's patients told him. One of the questions about this whole tragic case is whether or not Terri Schiavo really was in Persistant Vegetative State. (Bear in mind that many doctors disagreed, and also that a 1996 article in the peer-reviewed British Medical Journal claimed that diagnoses of PVS are wrong 43% of the time.[13]) Anyway, let's assume for the moment that she was. So then the question is whether or not PVS patients experience pain, hunger, or thirst. Percy Fine said, "What my patients have told me over the last 25 years is that when they stop eating and drinking, there's nothing unpleasant about it. In fact, it can be quite blissful and euphoric." Was he actually talking about PVS patients? Hardly, since they were able to talk to him and describe their sensations. So their experience has nothing to do with what Terri would or would not have felt during those thirteen days. If Terri was not in a PVS, the removal of her tube would have been illegal, as far as I know. If she was in a PVS, the testimony of Percy Fine's non PVS patients is irrelevant. (It's like saying, "Patients with measles don't have sore throats. And just to prove it, many of my chicken pox patients have told me that they had lovely sensations in their throats.") Ann Heneghan 13:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Correction—[o]ne of the questions...is whether Terri...really was in a PVS. I don't see how it's a question at all. It was medically diagnosed by at least three attending physicians (not walk-through observers or distant reviewers of four minutes of suspect video), it was legally adjudged as such in a court of law with evidence, direct testimony and cross examination, and the autopsy report said its findings were consistent with a diagnosis of PVS. What alternative answer are you holding out for? That's a rhetorical question. Your own POV shreiks the answer. Duckecho 15:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Please make sure you put 'expert' in parenthesis, as every non-crank, unbiased expert worth their salt held the same opinion as Fine. Proto 12:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, as I said above, I don't see the relevance of Fine's evidence concerning patients who can't have been severely brain damaged (since they were able to make statements to him) but who may have reached a stage where their bodies could no longer digest food. In any case, isn't it a bit POV to make a statement that any experts who think Terri might have suffered are cranks, biased, and not worth their salt? Such a statement seems to rule out the possibility of discussion. (Anyone who says the emporer has nothing on is either a liar or unfit for his office?) Ann Heneghan 13:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Of course it's relvant. It's well known in medicine that patients in a terminal condition do not experience discomfort once hydration and/or nutrition is discontinuted. If fact they often discontinue it themselves. What Fine's patients reported is an elegant analog to Terri Schiavo's condition and an effective rebuttal to those who attempt to project the hunger pangs experienced by a normal healthy individual after a few hours to what a patient in a terminal condition must feel after several days. Duckecho 15:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Hm, so Perry Fine said his patients told him they experienced euphoria. therefore they were conscious. And Terri, who was PVS, and completely unaware, would experience.... what? Assuming Terri WAS conscious (a shout out to all my conspiracy peeps out there, word) then Perry Fine's quote directly applies because his quote was refering to conscious patients, and if Terri was conscious, she'd have the same experience. So, if Terri had a hundred grams of neurons and wasn't aware of anything, then this is all moot. If she did have some sense of consciousness, then Perry's quote should apply. And from that line of reasoning, Perry's quote actually represents the point of view of the Schindlers, since Percy is talking about aware patients. If we want to have BOTH points of view, the PVS point of view would say "since Terri was PVS, she was unaware of any sensations at all". This is grasping for straws. Did you read the autopsy report? half the mass of a normal brain, and many sections had NO NEURONS. What was left of her brain was degenerated, non-thinking, tissue. And we're STILL arguing that she was aware? SHE WAS BLIND, for pete's sake, and people still want to argue that she made eye contact? What a load of bunk. Some people still insist that the emporer really is wearing clothes, even after the rest of the world is finally admitting that he's naked as a jaybird. FuelWagon 14:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if you intend it as a rhetorical question when you ask if I've read the autopsy report. In case you missed it, I have already answered that question on this page. [14] You seem also to have missed my point, but perhaps I didn't make it clearly enough. I'll try again. Terri Schiavo had severe brain damage, but her body was healthy. She was forty-one. She was not terminally ill. If her nutrition and hydration had not been cut off, she could have lived for years. The basis for the claim that she couldn't feel pain or hunger or thirst was that her brain was damaged, not that her body was nearing the end, and shutting down. Therefore, if we had evidence of what other PVS patients (assuming that she was PVS) felt or didn't feel while being starved and dehydrated to death, it would be relevant. (If you're interested in what a patient diagnosed as PVS felt when the tube was taken out, try a Google search for "Kate Adamson" + PVS or have a look here.[15]) We have doctors who dispute that a PVS patient would feel nothing. We have doctors who dispute that Terri was in a PVS. And we have the British Medical Journal saying that 43% of PVS diagnoses are wrong.[16] But the question of what she would or wouldn't feel has always been based on the existing damage to her brain, not to her body. I am assuming that Percy Fine's patients who told him about these blissful experiences were not in PVS. I am assuming, however, that they did have damage to their bodies. Otherwise, why were they his patients, and why did they stop eating? Now it is possible that when the body is in its final stages, it may become impossible to digest food. That was not the case with Terri. Such patients may stop eating, but still not be brain damaged. That was not the case with Terri. They may then be able to tell the doctor what it feels like. That was not the case with Terri.
- I do not think that Dr Fine was talking about physically-healthy, young or middle-aged people who stopped eating - and saying that they felt no pain, hunger, or thirst. Do you think he was?
- I do not think he was talking about PVS patients, since he claimed that they later described their feelings to him? Do you think he was?
- I am assuming, therefore, that he was speaking of people whose bodies were damaged so that they were physically dying. Terri was not dying. She died because her food and hydration were cut off, just as you would die if yours were cut off.
- So - and I'm trying to make this as clear as possible - my arguments above were that the experiences of people with damage to their bodies but not their brains can not be used to prove something about what people with damage to their brains but not their bodies would experience. Ann Heneghan 15:01, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The case of Kate Adamson is fascinating, and thought provoking. Thanks for the material, although I think her website is a much better link. I started doing a complex logic chain, and realized that it was silly. Kate is your counter-expert. Quote her, or better summarize her, and provide a link to her site. 'Nuff said.--ghost 15:37, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Good grief. Kate Adamson may have been diagnosed in a PVS, but clearly she was not in a PVS since she would have been unable to recover had she been. It's a tautology. So any experience she claims to have had as a PVS patient cannot be applied to someone in a PVS because she wasn't. Given a severely atrophied brain less than half normal size and few neurons, is it your (Ann's) serious contention that Terri wasn't in a PVS? Further, Terri was in a terminal condition. See the relevant Florida Statute for the definition. Your (Ann's) assertion that she could have lived for years is not only the same kind of speculation you (Ann) frequently carp about, but in the face of the terminal condition definition, isn't even true. And as I said above, Fine's patients' experiences are a perfect analog to Terri's case. Duckecho 15:50, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I found a short mention of Adamson discussing her period when she was diagnosed PVS and felt pain during dehydration ('tourture' she called it) and added it to the article. patsw 16:22, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, and I just cut that bullshit out. Could you be any more emotionally loaded? un-fucking-believable. Go advocate somewhere else. keep this shit off wikipedia. FuelWagon 16:32, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that did it. I'm cutting any emotional tear-jerker crap on sight. I just cut the Schindler's comment that Terri was "fighting like hell", since that's assuming she friggen consciously aware, and I cut Felos's comment that she was "peaceful". This is all bullshit. We're sticking to the facts. No more he said, she said crap. And if you pull another stunt like that patsw, I'll cut it on sight, so knock it off. You want to tell a tear-jerker story, you do it on your own personal blog or something. we're not doing it on wikipedia. FuelWagon 16:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The crap about "fighting like hell" assumes Terri was conscious and aware, it's out. The crap about Adamson is comparing apples to oranges. It compares a consciously aware person with someone who was PVS. It's a nice tearjerker argument for the conspiracy theorists, but it doesn't belong in a wikipedia article. If you want to put it on your personal blog, go for it. This is turning into nothing but emotional arguments. and it all needs to get cut. FuelWagon 16:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon, could I request that you please stop your foul language and your abusive tone. You are giving Wikipedia a very bad reputation. Wikipedia policy asks for courtesy. You seem to violate it on a regular basis. Other people seem to be able to revert edits and to discuss disagreements without being so aggressive and insulting. Ever since I joined Wikipedia, I have been struck by the hostility, aggressiveness, and sometimes revoltingness of many of your contributions. Leaving aside some of your disgustingly graphic mentions of body parts, I have to say that I consider your edits with phrases like "Listen you little punk", "Listen jerk", "Listen you moron", "You're and idiot" to be completely contrary to Wikipedia policy on Civility and Wikiquette. The Terri Schiavo subject is a very controversial one. We need to be able to keep calm in order to work together. I am seriously requesting that you try to change your behaviour. Ann Heneghan 17:27, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)