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watch out for brigades
this article was recently posted on a forum for terfs, so be extra careful and make sure all new edits have sources listed and facts checked.
OliviaEljest (talk) 22:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, that does explain the history. Jeez. Glad it got protected at least. LokiTheLiar (talk) 01:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Should the IPs comments be stricken and collapsed? My eyes hurt. Prinsgezinde (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Prinsgezinde: WP:NOTCENSORED. wumbolo ^^^ 09:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Huh? Prinsgezinde (talk) 10:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Prinsgezinde: WP:NOTCENSORED. wumbolo ^^^ 09:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
WP:NPOV
The reversion of my careful, small, edit to improve the neutrality of the opening para was in plain violation of WP:NPOV. Educres (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- The precise wording of the lede text of this article has been debated several times, see the above discussions. The change you made here was therefore highly controversial and WP:BRD is wholly appropriate.
- You appear to make a couple of edits each year from your account, with just 110 edits in total over many years before touching this article, and you have never edited this topic before. In the light of evidence of aggressive and recent on-wiki and off-wiki canvassing, it seems fair to ask how were you attracted to this article? --Fæ (talk) 16:54, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have now put the full weight of 1RR and 500/30 DS into effect. El_C 17:17, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) That is not a fair question, Fæ. Impugning the motives of other editors, especially in such a bitey way, is definitely in poor form. It might help to instead provide an actual substantive rationale for your revert, rather than doing this or pointing to a wall of text. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have "impugned" nobody. This article is being actively canvassed, today. Someone with a nearly dormant account and 100 edits, appears just after we see significant related disruption and, bang, goes right to the lede text and changes exactly the text that the disruption yesterday was all about. In that context it is perfectly reasonable to ask if in good faith they came to this article as a result of possible canvassing.
- We should not be frightened to ask about, and highlight, very obvious canvassing issues that are manipulating this article and this discussion page.
- Editors with LGBT+ interests are being actively targeted for harassment and scared off from contributing to this topic. That is not good for Wikipedia in anybody's book. Us long term Wikipedians should not be a tacit party to allowing that to happen regardless of our views about the article content. --Fæ (talk) 17:35, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reasonable or not, it's a violation of WP:AGF and impugning their motives as you continue to do is not the appropriate way to deal with the problem of canvassing. We have talk page guidelines. Please follow them. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- By definition, if the question is reasonable, and as you agree it is that's a given, then there is no bad faith in asking the question. There is no failure to assume good faith, as my assumption from the start was that Educres was likely to have been attracted here via canvassing elsewhere, and made the changes in good faith as they were unaware that the canvassing itself is counter to Wikipedia guidelines.
- Again, long term Wikipedians should not be scared off from discussing canvassing when we explicitly know it is happening. Thanks for your advice, but your own statements appear conflicted.
- Thanks --Fæ (talk) 19:08, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is not unreasonable for editors to raise concerns about canvassing for new and dormant accounts when we know canvassing is actually taking place. AGF is not a suicide pact. El_C 19:23, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:IAR is not a general invitation to breach our behavioral guidelines. If you're going to invoke IAR, then you should do so while articulating a clear and compelling reason why doing so helps the project. Both the guidelines and IAR should be used in order to further the goals of the project. So far, I've seen IAR used in this thread to avoid discussing the merits of a particular edit. Invoking IAR to justify an ad hoc investigation about whether canvassing has occurred at the expense of productive dialogue seems quite inappropriate to me. Perhaps you can fix this oversight. Or you can continue wasting time and energy justifying poor talk page behavior. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:49, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- I evaluate that behavioral guidelines have not been breached, due to known WP:CANVASS. El_C 21:55, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:IAR is not a general invitation to breach our behavioral guidelines. If you're going to invoke IAR, then you should do so while articulating a clear and compelling reason why doing so helps the project. Both the guidelines and IAR should be used in order to further the goals of the project. So far, I've seen IAR used in this thread to avoid discussing the merits of a particular edit. Invoking IAR to justify an ad hoc investigation about whether canvassing has occurred at the expense of productive dialogue seems quite inappropriate to me. Perhaps you can fix this oversight. Or you can continue wasting time and energy justifying poor talk page behavior. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:49, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reasonable or not, it's a violation of WP:AGF and impugning their motives as you continue to do is not the appropriate way to deal with the problem of canvassing. We have talk page guidelines. Please follow them. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Support Educres's edit. The current text isn't neutral. It picks a side. 24.252.174.130 (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
With regard to the removed contribution to this section, note that the blocked IP 24.252.174.130 is a highly likely user match to 98.162.170.103. By 'highly', statistically less than 0.01% that a different user would be using this IP address by random chance. A checkuser could probably pin that down much further. We may well see more IP hopping. --Fæ (talk) 15:16, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I restored IP's contribution of 14:38, 4 June. I realized you weren't the one that removed it, but it's a TPO violation, nonetheless. If someone believes the comment is invalid, belongs to a sock, or whatever, then raise it at WP:SPI, WP:ANI, or whatever you believe the problem is. You can state a good-faith reservation about the comment (as you did above). As a first step, one could (should) leave a (neutrally-worded, good-faith) comment on the IP's talk page, with diff links, stating their concerns about their editing, so future admins and others will have access to it. But what one cannot do, is just remove it without evidence based on their own (or someone else's) opinion; otherwise every controversial Talk page would devolve into a shoot-out. Mathglot (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I also lean pretty heavily towards favoring Educres's version. Anyone care to make an actual case against this version that focuses on content, rather than contributors? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:50, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Having looked at the lead now, it has some clear POV aspects that need adjustment. Then again, so did the attempted change which was POV in the other direction, as people with strong opinions on both sides of the issue lean, understandably, towards their own view of the situation. I'll have a more in-depth look at this and make a comment later, but for the time being, I'll just remind us all of some general principles: the lead summarizes the body, it doesn't introduce new information; the lead does not normally need citations, because the more detailed body should have citations for everything summarized in the lead. Having said that, citations are not prohibited in the lead, either, and in a controversial article like this one, this might be one of those cases where citations in the lead would be worth while.
- Besides POV, another general problem to watch out for in articles is WP:SYNTH, a type of WP:Original research. If the lead ends up saying, "these people believe X, and these other folks believe Y" then we have to be careful if we are saying that in Wikipedia's voice, that there are single sources that have that whole assertion, i.e.: "some X, and others Y"; if we have to resort to two (or more) separate sources where #1, 2, & 3 say "some X", and sources 4, 5, & 6 say "some Y" then if *we* say "some X, but others Y" then that is SYNTH. In an uncontroversial topic, one could be perhaps be a little bit more lax about this, but not here. Core principles of Verifiability, Original research, neutral point of view and Due weight need to be observed strictly in this article, and anything that doesn't, needs to be removed. Mathglot (talk) 18:45, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- The lede's second sentence says the word is "applied to a transphobic minority of feminists," however, the (cited) first paragraph of the article proper describes the views of the article's subject as "often considered to be transphobic" [emph. added]. This implies that the description of the "minority of feminists" as "transphobic" is not uncontroversial, and per MOS:LEADREL it should not be in the article lede. Test piggy (talk) 19:52, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Given that WP:NOTDIC prompts us to focus on things, rather than terms, it might make sense to do that here. If we focus on the referent that TERF applies to, rather than the referent itself, that might also help us find NPOV language when covering the topic. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]
- Consensus isn't achieved by recruiting a couple of buddies on some forums to stan each other and say exactly the same things. Meatpuppet's numbers doesn't count in a good-faithed consensus-building discussion. Everyone opposed to this so far are either new accounts or IPs, or accounts dormant for a couple months or years that suddenly flocked upon this obscure but highly contentious topic, plus at least one block evaders. Unless people are bringing up high-quality reliable sources, comments that merely express support with no content suggestions and no sources are nothing of value. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 21:11, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Haven't looked carefully at the content yet, but I will in the next couple of days, but in the meantime, just a response to remind us again, about some policy-related points, regardless how this shakes out: Tsumikiria's point about canvassed users or socks, or Meatpuppets not counting when trying to determine consensus is absolutely right; ditto for reliable sources, which are crucial in this article. At the same time, we have to remember that if 2 or 25 or 250 canvassed users or socks come here and all say X, that's not an argument against X either, it only means, they don't get to be part of a consensus. Finally, the burden of proof is on people making the changes, not on those that wish to remove them, which has a lower bar; see WP:BRD. Given that WP:1RR is in effect on this article, people should pay close attention to BRD and 1RR, as well as all the other policies involved. Given that that is the case and the nature of this article, it wouldn't hurt for editors to mention policy right in the edit summary, and/or a link to whatever Talk page section is discussing material relevant to their change. Very few editors have done this, lately (including me), other than Educres and Sandstein. It would help keep things stable, if we all did that. Sometimes, being forced to quote policy, and not finding one that fits, can make one stop and think whether this is really an improvement to the article or not, and every edit to the article should be an improvement, or it shouldn't be made in the first place. Mathglot (talk) 21:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Because of the recent canvass attempt, I would not support any major changes to the article for at least the next week or so. I don't think we can have a terribly useful discussion right now. (I would also like to strongly encourage anyone who came here because of the canvass to admit it. It doesn't mean you can't participate if you do, and it will at the very least make you look suspicious if you don't.)
- My short comment for now about the underlying issue is that it's possible to source that these feminists are transphobic using only reliable sources (for example). LokiTheLiar (talk) 22:11, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can’t agree with you there; “some editors” behaving badly does not mean good-faith editors should not edit. Otherwise, you hand over an article lockdown tool to anyone who wants to behave badly. Worse: it gives them a tool to attempt to establish bad faith WP:EDITCONSENSUS. On the contrary: we should ignore them, and carry on. Mathglot (talk) 23:15, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Haven't looked carefully at the content yet, but I will in the next couple of days, but in the meantime, just a response to remind us again, about some policy-related points, regardless how this shakes out: Tsumikiria's point about canvassed users or socks, or Meatpuppets not counting when trying to determine consensus is absolutely right; ditto for reliable sources, which are crucial in this article. At the same time, we have to remember that if 2 or 25 or 250 canvassed users or socks come here and all say X, that's not an argument against X either, it only means, they don't get to be part of a consensus. Finally, the burden of proof is on people making the changes, not on those that wish to remove them, which has a lower bar; see WP:BRD. Given that WP:1RR is in effect on this article, people should pay close attention to BRD and 1RR, as well as all the other policies involved. Given that that is the case and the nature of this article, it wouldn't hurt for editors to mention policy right in the edit summary, and/or a link to whatever Talk page section is discussing material relevant to their change. Very few editors have done this, lately (including me), other than Educres and Sandstein. It would help keep things stable, if we all did that. Sometimes, being forced to quote policy, and not finding one that fits, can make one stop and think whether this is really an improvement to the article or not, and every edit to the article should be an improvement, or it shouldn't be made in the first place. Mathglot (talk) 21:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I did not come here because "the canvass attempt", in fact I have no idea what you mean by this. I happened on the article by a series of coincidences too uninteresting to relate. I thought I could spend 2 minutes improving the article (as someone observed, editing Wikipedia is not something I do a lot, but I think it is important to have many people who make small contributions so I try to be one of them) and move on. Evidently this topic is too hot for that, and I am not up for a protracted discussion. Never mind, I tried.Educres (talk) 17:16, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- In the spirit of using the talk page to come up with better wording, let's hash out how we can reword the lede to get it more in keeping with an encyclopedic tone. Per WP:NOTDIC and WP:ISAWORDFOR, we would want to structure this lede (and accordingly tweak the article) to have its scope be primarily on the concept, rather than the term. Here's my stab at it:
Trans-exclusionary radical feminists or TERFs (also written "terf" and pronounced like "turf") are those feminists who exclude trans women from women's spaces or who do not consider trans women to be women in every sense. Coined in 2008, the acronym TERF is typically considered a slur by those it is applied to, who typically prefer the term gender critical instead.
- We should also probably change the redirect of gender critical to go here. Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- This wording just looks like trying very hard to appease the active TERF lobbyists who object to calling transphobes transphobes. By definition refusing to recognize that transwomen are women is transphobic.
- Note that it is factually wrong to say that TERFs do not consider transwomen to be women "in every sense", this is just wooly wording. --Fæ (talk) 21:37, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's not going to happen. "in every sense" means that this is more about POV editorializing rather than neutral content. TERFs don't just oppose a simple identification, they're actively against human rights. Writing their self-promoting "gender critical" in lead is obviously promotional and undue. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 21:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I can see merit in striking out "in every sense" since that might give undue weight to the idea that someone isn't a TERF if they consider trans women to be women in certain senses but not others. But I'm not sure if it's consistent with an encyclopedic tone to use the term "transphobic" as we currently do in the lede, especially when we indicate clearly how TERFs are transphobic in the rest of the sentence (there are, after all, other ways of being transphobic, so this isn't "by definition" transphobic). If altogether removing the term transphobic seems too politically correct, is there another way we can incorporate the term that's in keeping with an encyclopedic tone?
- Given that the term gender critical is the only alternative given in the article, and the article currently provides a lot of coverage over the controversy around the stigma attached to the term, perhaps someone can articulate with more clarity why it wouldn't be appropriate to mention this apparent synonym in the lede. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 01:22, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- there are, after all, other ways of being transphobic, so this isn't "by definition" transphobic -- Wow... just wow!
- Let's examine what you are stating as if it is "fact" by comparing "transphobic" with the word "racist".
- You are trying to write a Wikipedia article about the KKK where you want to avoid using "racist" in the lede. Your justification is that you should not call someone a "racist" unless they are a "full on" racist. You insist that because someone states they think non-whites are genetically inferior, we should not call them "racist" as some KKK members state they are definitely not "racists" because they are quoting "science" not that they hate black people for irrational reasons.
- Now, step back and reexamine how someone who argues that "TERF" is offensive and they are not transphobic, is definitely not "transphobic" because they are quoting "facts" when they say that transwomen are not women and do not hate transwomen for irrational reasons.
- How about not making contortions in interpreting Wikipedia guidelines about 'tone', to appease lobbyists who will endlessly state that when they make blatantly transphobic statements they are not being transphobic?
- Wikipedias "voice" is to stick to facts and state reality in a simple way, not a convoluted way. Transwomen are women. People who hate transgender people are transphobes. It's really, really, simple. Let's keep it simple and avoid letting this article be hijacked by obvious lobbyists, canvassers and meatpuppets. --Fæ (talk) 06:46, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- It seems as though you've misunderstood what I said. My point is that there are multiple ways of being transphobic. So saying that "by definition refusing to recognize that transwomen are women is transphobic" sounds too much like that's the only way of being transphobic, which would be incorrect. The KKK thought experiment with the term racist is a good example. If you look at the lede for the Ku Klux Klan, you won't find the word racist. Instead, we are told how the KKK is racist (because there are a number of ways one can be racist). They are a "white supremacist hate group" that "has advocated extremist reactionary positions such as white nationalism, anti-immigration and—especially in later iterations—Nordicism and anti-Catholicism." I suspect that whoever is behind this wording was not motivated by what you describe in your thought experiment.
- It's quite accurate to characterize the KKK as racist. It's also accurate to characterize TERFs as transphobic. No one is questioning either of those and avoiding either term in the lede is not an attempt to be neutral to whether they are or are not racist/transphobic. Rather, it seems to me that the encyclopedic tone we're striving for would prompt us to avoid wording it the way we have. Like I said, maybe there's a way we can still use the term transphobic in a way that is in keeping with this encyclopedic tone. There might also be something we can do say in the lede that would otherwise make it clear to readers how these people are transphobes. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Occam's razor × ("There might also be something we can do say in the lede that would otherwise make it clear to readers how these people are transphobes") = "transphobes" --Fæ (talk) 16:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's not really a response to what I've said. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 16:13, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Looking at Feminist views on transgender topics#Trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs), I see a slight variant on the wording here that might be helpful to us. The lede could read:
Trans-exclusionary radical feminists or TERFs (/ˈtɛrf/ also written "terf") are those feminists who exclude trans women from women's spaces or who do not consider trans women to be women. These feminists are a minority within feminism and are often considered transphobic. Coined in 2008, the acronym TERF is typically considered a slur by those it is applied to, who typically prefer the term gender critical instead.
- Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 16:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Occam's razor × ("There might also be something we can do say in the lede that would otherwise make it clear to readers how these people are transphobes") = "transphobes" --Fæ (talk) 16:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
It seems so far that the objection to my proposed wording is that it looks like it's just trying to appease "TERF lobbyists, canvassers and meatpuppets" which doesn't really do much to address any of the points I've brought up. The tactic of characterizing someone's efforts as pro-transphobia only goes so far. The wording as it stands has an unencyclopedic tone. Does anyone else wish to propose their own reword that might address this? Should we start an RfC to get a broader discussion? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree that the tone is not encyclopedic. So far it seems that your objection to the term "transphobic" is that it's rude. Well, sure, but it's also incredibly well documented. We have tons of sources on this, up to and including USA Today calling them transphobic in a glossary in their news section. LokiTheLiar (talk) 20:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- I said the wording of the lede as it stands doesn't have an encyclopedic tone. How you can get "it's rude" from anything I've said escapes me. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- What about the tone isn't encyclopedic, then? You keep saying this, but you've never said exactly why you think it is, and your proposed rewordings appear to indicate you think the current tone is too harsh. However, this is exactly backwards: Wikipedia articles are supposed to be as direct as can be supported by the sources, and moving the tone of the article away from direct language would be WP:WEASEL, and would therefore be making the tone less encyclopedic, not more. LokiTheLiar (talk) 04:14, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, let's see if I can break this down for you:
- We want our writing to be clear. Saying "so-and-so is transphobic" is not very clear, as there are many ways to be transphobic, some of them even mutually exclusive. For the sake of clarity, we want to say how TERFs are transphobic. We see this clarity in the phrasing "
feminists who exclude trans women from women's spaces or who do not consider trans women to be women
. Since Fæ brought up the KKK in an analogy, it might even help to consider how the term racist is similarly vague, as it can mean many things (subconscious bias, white supremacy, institutional bias, etc), which is why our article on the KKK doesn't use the word in the lede and instead opts for the clearer white supremacist. - We want our writing to be concise. Since we indicate how TERFs are transphobic, using both the vague phrasing ("transphobic") and the clear phrasing ("exclude trans women from women's spaces...") is redundant. It wouldn't be redundant if we could reasonably expect readers to not believe that e.g. excluding trans women from women's spaces to be considered transphobic, but it seems to me that this is an irrational belief on par with believing that white supremacy isn't considered racist. So far in this discussion, contributors have indicated that the transphobic nature of these TERF beliefs are so intrinsic as to be common sense.
- We want our writing to be unbiased. Our policy on WP:NPOV states that we want to strive to present material with "nonjudgmental language". Accurate or not, calling people "transphobic" is judgmental language. Saying that someone "displays logical flaws, makes factually inaccurate statements, and has an IQ of 75" is consistent with unbiased, nonjudgmental language. Saying they are "stupid" is not, even if it's accurate. This is the argument we find at WP:LABEL, which I think everyone here is familiar with.
- We want our writing to be clear. Saying "so-and-so is transphobic" is not very clear, as there are many ways to be transphobic, some of them even mutually exclusive. For the sake of clarity, we want to say how TERFs are transphobic. We see this clarity in the phrasing "
- And this is just about the term transphobic. The more dramatic changes that I've suggested have to do with changing the focus of the article from the term TERF to the topic of TERFs (consistent with WP:NOTDIC and WP:ISAWORDFOR), which no one seems to have addressed so far. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, "transphobic hatred" seems to be a clearer and better wording per the sources available on the topic. Otherwise, your personal objection to the sources should be addressed there. As this has been discussed at great, great length, you may consider WP:DROPTHESTICK. The article may expand to include more about the nature of TERFs, should the corresponding section on the parent article expanded to unacceptable lengths. Cheers. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 18:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think you might have me confused with someone else. What "personal objection to the sources" are you talking about?
- Can you clarify what you mean about "transphobic hatred"? This seems to me like a step away from the encyclopedic tone that we would want to use.
- And your link to WP:DROPTHESTICK is in poor form. This might be a tired discussion for you, but remember that it's much newer to me. If there's a previous debate where something similar was brought up, I'm willing to read your summary or even look over a thread that you link to to understand how previous discussions have gone. This specific thread and this specific conversation isn't even a month old and has generated merely a few dozen comments from a handful of editors, less than that from my explicit wording suggestion on June 11th, and much of it has been dismissive and vaguely antagonistic. So I hope you can forgive me when it seems as though the conversation hasn't even played out. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- 25 days later, this thread by itself is now a bitter unreadable 5,000 word essay, an undergrad third class due to a lack of sources. How is this still a thing? The exact subject, lobbying against daring to honestly call the "trans women are not women" campaign run by TERFs "transphobic", has been discussed at great, great length, and the chewed over dry bones have been respectfully buried. It's a new standard for a failure of WP:DROPTHESTICKINESS.
- Transphobic hatred is transphobic, get over it. --Fæ (talk) 07:43, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, "transphobic hatred" seems to be a clearer and better wording per the sources available on the topic. Otherwise, your personal objection to the sources should be addressed there. As this has been discussed at great, great length, you may consider WP:DROPTHESTICK. The article may expand to include more about the nature of TERFs, should the corresponding section on the parent article expanded to unacceptable lengths. Cheers. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 18:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, let's see if I can break this down for you:
- What about the tone isn't encyclopedic, then? You keep saying this, but you've never said exactly why you think it is, and your proposed rewordings appear to indicate you think the current tone is too harsh. However, this is exactly backwards: Wikipedia articles are supposed to be as direct as can be supported by the sources, and moving the tone of the article away from direct language would be WP:WEASEL, and would therefore be making the tone less encyclopedic, not more. LokiTheLiar (talk) 04:14, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- I said the wording of the lede as it stands doesn't have an encyclopedic tone. How you can get "it's rude" from anything I've said escapes me. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
There is a defence that WP:DROPTHESTICK is "poor form" because a user claims to not have been made aware of where "something similar" was brought up. Here are the links to other threads on this page which are about exactly the same thing, attempting to remove the word "transphobic" to describe a blatantly transphobic campaign attacking trans women:
- #Sentence_NPOV_and_run-on_length
- #Additional sources
- #Back to basics
- #Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2019
- #Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2019 (2)
It would be super great if folks could avoid repeating the same thread over, and over, and over again. At this point it has become lobbying for the sake of being disruptive. Just search for "transphobic" in each of the linked threads. Thanks! --Fæ (talk) 08:43, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- So I'm told this particular issue has already been discussed, and part of the evidence I'm given for this is very short threads that began weeks after this one, that don't answer any of the concerns I've brought up, and two of which are pretty much just statements that this has been discussed already. The third is about talk page guidelines, which is completely unrelated. Can you see how absurd this appears as an answer to the request to point to threads that indicate prior discussion?
- What's left are two threads that are tangentially related. Neither are about the wording of the lede. The first thread is about using anti-trans vs trans-exclusionary in a sentence deeper in the article. The second thread is the usage of TERF seemingly to adjudicate how neutral it is. These might more closely relate to what's been brought up here if I were arguing that TERFs are not transphobic. But I'm not arguing that. I'm really at a loss as to how one could think that any of these threads support the statement that "The precise wording of the lede text of this article has been debated several times" and at "great, great length". I think it might be a measure of good faith participation to simply address my concerns as I've raised them, rather than try to stonewall, ignore me, or depend on my ability to read answers to my questions between the lines of your posts in previous threads. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:51, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
I’m quite new to Wikipedia editing and don’t want to wade into a fistfight here, but FWIW I came across this article today by chance and think it sounds very un-neutral (I know that’s not a word!). I don’t know enough about the topic to have an opinion on the debate but the page itself doesn’t sound authoritatively written - sounds like an angry campaigner pushing one side of an argument without acknowledging an alternative view exists. Again, I’m not saying the view expressed isn’t right (or wrong) but it just reads very badly. If it was written about an individual it would be libellous I think. Maybe needs a link to an article with alternative view? Or at least more neutral language. Ducking out now as scared of a shitstorm coming my way. Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 12:15, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- Take a look at WP:BALANCE. Neutrality doesn't mean "equal column inches" for an opposing view.
- Also it's a weak argument to say, "This article is unfair!" without saying more specifically what the issue is. Do you see "transphobic hatred" as non-neutral? Trouble is, the very first citation right after that uses "hatred" specifically. Yes, this is an article heavily critical of TERFs – but then that's just reflecting what the substantial position of commentary upon them says. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:51, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- I point, again, to WP:LABEL, which explicitly prompts us to avoid "Value-laden labels" and WP:NPOV, which tells us in no uncertain terms that we should use "nonjudgmental language." It seems quite clear that "transphobic hatred" is value-laden, judgmental language. That a source uses this term isn't a real justification for going against our tone and bias guidelines. Reliable sources don't have to have the same tone and bias standards that we do; we can recognize these sources as authoritative while adjusting the language to fit our own guidelines on tone. If a source using particular phrasing were ipso facto enough for us to echo it in Wikipedia's voice, then we would just need to find sources that call pundits we don't like "shills" and "grifters." We shouldn't do that. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:57, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- This is an article on that value-laden label. You can't have one without the other. Also, to quote WP:LABEL, "Use these in articles only when they are in wide use externally" and that's just why we have these sources. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Andy, but that makes no sense. The most you can say is this is an article on the term TERF, not on the term transphobic hatred. The phrasing "transphobic hatred" didn't even appear in the article until Tsumikira added it last week, amid talk page objection. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- Could we try to limit the scope of our feuding before we start slinging edits and reverts back and forth (again)? "Transphobic" is a label applied to TERF ideology almost any time it is mentioned (or at least explained) in RS, and it would be inappropriate in the extreme to exclude or WEASEL (e.g. "sometimes called") the use of this term, which is not inflammatory in any way I can see. The use of "hatred" is less well-sourced (and seems to imply a motivation for TERF ideologues that is not universally accepted), so perhaps the latter should not be used in Wikipedia's voice? "Transphobic", however, must certainly remain. Newimpartial (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Andy, but that makes no sense. The most you can say is this is an article on the term TERF, not on the term transphobic hatred. The phrasing "transphobic hatred" didn't even appear in the article until Tsumikira added it last week, amid talk page objection. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- This is an article on that value-laden label. You can't have one without the other. Also, to quote WP:LABEL, "Use these in articles only when they are in wide use externally" and that's just why we have these sources. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- I point, again, to WP:LABEL, which explicitly prompts us to avoid "Value-laden labels" and WP:NPOV, which tells us in no uncertain terms that we should use "nonjudgmental language." It seems quite clear that "transphobic hatred" is value-laden, judgmental language. That a source uses this term isn't a real justification for going against our tone and bias guidelines. Reliable sources don't have to have the same tone and bias standards that we do; we can recognize these sources as authoritative while adjusting the language to fit our own guidelines on tone. If a source using particular phrasing were ipso facto enough for us to echo it in Wikipedia's voice, then we would just need to find sources that call pundits we don't like "shills" and "grifters." We shouldn't do that. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:57, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Back to basics
I am planning to respond to the NPOV issue, but in reading the section above, it's clear to me that the discussion has gone completely off the rails. I'm not talking about which "side" anybody is on, or why. I'm talking about the whole point of having a discussion here, and about how the points are being made. It seems to me a reminder of some basic principles of Wikipedia are in order here, because we need to get the discussion back on track, if we want to improve the article.
Talk page discussions that get away from how to improve the article, such as getting into debates of one editor's opinion about the subject versus another's, or advocacy for one's personal preference or point of view without reference to what reliable sources say, do nothing to improve the article, or to find consensus here; they are off-topic. Discussions that are purely off-topic debates of editor opinion may be collapsed as contributing nothing to achieving consensus. Controversial articles like this one are particularly liable to this kind of useless debate, so we need to make an extra effort to avoid that. One way to avoid it, is to deal with facts, which means, stick to what the reliable sources say. Our own opinions have no place here. As editors, we are here merely to find out what the reliable sources say, and summarize them in proportion to their position as majority or minority views, irrespective of what our own opionon happens to be. Mathglot (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
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Has been open long enough; collapsed as planned. Mathglot (talk) 16:26, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
TERF
The definition of ‘TERF’ needs to be identified as an opinion piece. It is fixed so editors can change it. For example, who ever wrote it said that a minority of women mind about people identified at birth as male using female only spaces. But there is no evidence cited to show the fear of mixed use or rejection of mixed use is a minority or majority viewpoint.
It is indeed a topic of concern in the community of people born female for the reasons which do not need to be restated here.
No consideration is given to the creation of third spaces or gender neutral spaces. Marilyn Leask (talk) 13:16, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
- This article currently covers terminology, rather than the topic of TERFs and their perspectives. I think it should expand to represent the topic (particularly per WP:NOTDIC), but we would need to find sources that cover the aspects of TERF perspectives that you're talking about. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 16:43, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2019
Change "transphobic" (a loaded and - I would argue - derogatory ignorance-implying term) to either "trans-critical" or "transphobic and/or gender critical" to be more objective in presentation of information. Do TERFS self-identify as "transphobic" in most cases? No, because their reaction is not inherently borne out of fear or disgust, many would argue, but simply over a disregard for the whole idea of 'gender identity'. This does not imply hostility or negative judgement toward trans individuals, nor are TERFs ubiquitously without compassion for individuals experiencing gender dysphoria.
A major argument is, rather, that the unease women may feel in female safe-spaces when encountering male-bodied people who identify as women is at least equivalent to the discomfort those male bodied individuals may feel in being excluded, and that one person's right to peace of mind does not outweigh the other. The individuals making these arguments may not personally feel any disgust, dislike or other negative sentiment toward the transcommunity at large, but can be primarily focused on protecting the safe spaces of women who have been abused by male bodied individuals, among other things. Corvidia (talk) 06:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- This has been a subject of extended lobbying and off wiki canvassing, mostly by accounts that are new, made very few contributions or created for this purpose. Refer to the prior discussions. The evidence, facts and definition of "transphobic" have not changed. This request provides no new reliable sources. There are obvious benefits to the page staying edit protected. --Fæ (talk) 07:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2019 (2)
76.67.172.12 (talk) 23:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
This article states, without evidence, that feminist who do not accept transgender people into women's only spaces, or spaces that have historically been women's only, such as sport, are transphobic.
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Equivamp - talk 23:42, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- This has been a subject of extended lobbying and off wiki canvassing, mostly by accounts that are new, IPs, or created for this purpose. Refer to the prior discussions. The evidence, facts and definition of "transphobic" have not changed. This request provides no new reliable sources. There are obvious benefits to the page staying edit protected. --Fæ (talk) 04:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- On that subject, "TERF" has just been removed from Julie Bindel, which is ridiculous. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:06, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would have guessed that the well known Julie "Gender Benders, beware" Bindel was the very definition of a TERF. However the category removal justification was technically correct, this needs to be stated explicitly in the body of the article, with some good reliable sources. Nice bit of research for someone to sort out... --Fæ (talk) 14:47, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- Read the edit histories, and see just how much POV stripping of references goes on, just to push a viewpoint. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:56, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would have guessed that the well known Julie "Gender Benders, beware" Bindel was the very definition of a TERF. However the category removal justification was technically correct, this needs to be stated explicitly in the body of the article, with some good reliable sources. Nice bit of research for someone to sort out... --Fæ (talk) 14:47, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- On that subject, "TERF" has just been removed from Julie Bindel, which is ridiculous. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:06, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Redirects and where they go
FYI, there is a discussion at Talk:Feminist views on transgender topics#Redirects_and_where_they_go regarding redirects which point to either this article or that article. -sche (talk) 06:14, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Severe NPOV breach?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This clause: "It is used to describe a minority of feminists who espouse transphobic hatred" seems to be a severe NPOV breach. The cited pieces are opinion pieces, and there are just as many opinion pieces who hold the opposite point of view. For instance:
- https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/09/what-terf-how-internet-buzzword-became-mainstream-slur
- https://www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2017/nov/19/bullies-everywhere-take-delight-in-coming-up-with-new-insults
- https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2019/05/welcome-age-ironic-bigotry-where-old-hatreds-are-cloaked-woke-new-language
- https://quillette.com/2018/10/18/trans-activists-campaign-against-terfs-has-become-an-attack-on-science/
- https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/29/philosophers-object-journals-publication-terf-reference-some-feminists-it-really
- https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/559907-queer-identified-women-jump-lesbian-outside-of-a-drag-show
- https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/graham-linehan-trans-activists-don-t-realise-the-damage-they-do-1.3765979
- https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12166957
- https://quillette.com/2019/06/14/its-time-for-progressives-to-protect-women-instead-of-pronouns/
- https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/terf/
- https://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/09/21/terf-isnt-slur-hate-speech/
- https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/04/01/terf-a-handy-guide-for-irresponsible-journalists-shady-academics-and-irate-men/
- https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/11/06/nazi-terf-misunderstands-fascism-ignores-brutal-truth-women-holocaust/
- https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/08/29/many-lgbt-organizations-caving-trans-activists-losing-lesbians/
And that's just from 5 minutes of googling and checking Feminist Current's "terf" tag. I could add more. I think I'll create an account and edit the page now. Let me know if you have an objection. 2A02:908:C70:52C0:103A:3D00:2611:1415 (talk) 10:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
So this is my account then. Apparently I can't edit the page yet, but that's OK. I guess I should wait for some feedback first, given how heated the discussion here seems to be. If I understand correctly, I'll be able to edit the article starting from August 2, 16:40 UTC. In the meanwhile, I'm open to explanations as to why this article seems to be taking such a one-sided point of view. Or if someone else who can edit the article does so, given the citations above, that would be great of course. Rhino (talk) 12:49, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
- How about you respecting consensus and reliable sources which are not transphobic editorials by well-known TERFs? Feminist Current and Quillette rely on ranting diatribes, deliberately offensive to attract social media reposts. This is not the Trump encyclopedia of bullshit. --Fæ (talk) 09:20, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- This might be that rare moment when I not only agree with Fae's principle, but also their phrasing of it. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:36, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Fae, thank you for this warm welcome! (/s) I've looked at some of the previous discussions on this page, and pondered a bit on the links I've listed above, and the only conclusion I can reach is that your judgment is being clouded by your strong personal opinions on the matter. I see that you think it's appropriate to compare so-called TERFs to the KKK, which is a very extreme position, and I'll just have to disagree on the strongest terms. I've listed many more links than Quilette and Feminist Current, but even those two are not any less "reliable" than sources like LQBTQ Nation or The Daily Dot which are currently used as citations for your position. It's mostly opinion pieces from strongly ideological people on both sides. Please tell me if I'm missing something, but as per Wikipedia's verifiability and notability guidelines it looks like the article is currently very biased in favor of your position, not against it. Is there any possibility that you will loosen up a bit on your stance here? Thanks in advance for your kind response. I'm not here to fight. Rhino (talk) 19:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- The Daily Dot is considered generally reliable by WP:RSP. So are USA Today and the New York Times, which are also cited to defend that claim. Feminist Current and Quilette aren't.
- Furthermore, many of the sources cited are not actually opinion pieces: the USA Today piece, the Outline piece, and the Daily Dot piece are all in the news domain of their respective websites. The fact that they all do voice an opinion is not evidence that they are unreliable; indeed, it's evidence that major news organizations say these sorts of things in their news voice instead of their opinion voice.
- And then even past that, whether a source is reliable and whether it's unbiased are things Wikipedia considers separately. The fact that all these sources have an opinion does not mean that their journalism is bad, and several of them including at least one fairly pro-TERF piece say that TERFs are a minority. And then the "transphobic" is from several news organizations saying "transphobic" in news voice, up to and including USA Today.
- This is frankly just a WP:UNDUE issue; you are perceiving that the page is "biased" because it conforms to the opinion of reliable sources, which is not some sort of weak "both sides" non-opinion like you might expect if you didn't know the sources or how Wikipedia works, but is in fact the shared opinion that TERFs are a transphobic minority of feminists. Sources can in fact share a strong opinion like this. It's not Wikipedia's job to "both sides" every fringe opinion. LokiTheLiar (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- This is sad part of wiki, but here I am anyway.
- The Daily Dot is considered generally reliable by WP:RSP Citation needed (to expand, RSP talks specifically about internet culture)
- Feminist Current and Quilette aren't. Citation needed
- Furthermore, many of the sources cited are not actually opinion pieces - Opinion piece isnt defined by the subsection it occupies on some website, but by its content. Daily dot piece is opinion piece, then again Daily Dot does not run anything but opinion pieces.
- Furthermore, many of the sources 6 sources given. Outline mentions minority zero times. NYT zero times. LBTQ Nation (which, sorry but assigning RS to that...you do you) zero times. USA Today zero times. Indy 100 zero times. Daily Dot one time, within opinion piece sourcing nothing but authors claim. Author themselves being Alex Dalbey is a writer and zinester currently living in Saint Paul, Minnesota via self-description on DD page. So not a scholar who does any scientific work with data or whathaveyou.
- And listen, I get it. Agenda is thing difficult to overcome. But at the same time MOS:LEADNO is pretty easy to comprehend. I generally encourage this whole subsection to do so because this is quite laughtable. You are here a new user, your ignorance of some rules is expected as there is a lot of them and not easy to catch on asap, but seeing senior editors as Fæ to fall into these tropes is sad thing to behold. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:48, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, Alex Dalbey is a journalist whose piece in the Daily Dot is analysis, not opinion. But by all means. EllsworthSK, you do you. The rest of the world knows that TERF positions are generally minoritatian within feminism, and it is "gender critical" folks outside feminist movements that work the hardest to see this reality obscured. Newimpartial (talk) 00:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that transphobes are, thankfully, probably a minority within feminism, but I'm also skeptical that we have solid sourcing for the claim. WanderingWanda (talk) 08:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Well, because there isn't one. But once you take the wikipedia as your ideological battlegroup, right Newimpartial?, then sources are suddenly not necessary. Also this will shock some to their core, but analysis are generally within Opinion sections of any proper reliable source (and here comes me again pointing to fact that RSP specifically refers to Daily Dot as RS within context of internet culture and if one would bother reading the RS attribution that it links to, you can see consensus on them not being one outside of that context), see CNN for instance. Also Alex Dalbey is a writer and zinester according to their own description on Daily Dot webpage and I detest the fact that I had to google what zinester means. If they don't refer to themselves as journalist, I really don't see why I should enforce such attribution on them. So, let's give it a ... week, let's say. That generally acceptable time frame to provide RS. If no RS appears until then, I am removing that wording. If you don't like it, you can bring it to ANI. This reeks of NPOV, LEADNO and other violations. Because I can't say that I am impressed by what rest of the world knows. If it knows it, it should put it in RS. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Since I prefer to write (and edit) what I know, I will talk about Canada. In Canada, the vast majority of official and unofficial feminist organizations are trans-inclusionary, with Quebec's most important feminist organization led by a trans woman last year. TERF organizing in Canada, on the other hand, is largely confined to a minority within British Columbia around 'Feminist Current'. That is what all the reliable sources for Canada would tell you, if you bothered to look. Actual RS are not hard to find, even if you have never heard of a zine (and queer politics, FWIW, derived largely from zines in the first instance - advertising your unfamiliarity with feminist and queer movements might not be the best credential to edit this page...) Newimpartial (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Canada is not the only country in the world, and is far from being the only English speaking country. Also, do you think Wikipedia is supposed to support queer politics? -Crossroads- (talk) 19:15, 30 July 2019 (UTC) updated -Crossroads- (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Crossroads1, my point is that in an article about a term used for a faction in a debate taking place within feminist and queer politics, editors need not support but should certainly be familiar with the terminology and sources for feminist and queer politics. If you don't, then you are largely disqualifying yourself from contributing here - TERF-related articles in particular are frequently brigaded on WP by editors who understand the "trans exclusionary" part but not the "radical feminist" part. Newimpartial (talk) 00:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Newimpartial, do you have any citations for the statement that "the vast majority of official and unofficial feminist organizations are trans-inclusionary"? I'm not sure what an "official" feminist organization even is. Does Vancouver Rape Relief & Women's Shelter count as an "official" feminist organization for example? It's one of the oldest and biggest women's shelters in Canada and very adamant in staying female-only. As far as I know they work with Feminist Current too, which is actually a very major feminist publication to my knowledge. Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Rhino, we have in Canada large feminist organizations led by elected officials, small feminist networks, and everything in between. The shelter you name in Vancouver would be part of the "in between", and if you have the impression that they and 'Feminist Current' have a large constituency within Canadian feminism, then you simply don't know the domain very well. Very few major feminist publications or organizations in Canada support Meghan Murphy's FRINGE positions. Newimpartial (talk) 00:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Did I understand this correctly that you are Canadian? Is that why you bring up Canada a lot? -Crossroads- (talk) 01:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Rhino, we have in Canada large feminist organizations led by elected officials, small feminist networks, and everything in between. The shelter you name in Vancouver would be part of the "in between", and if you have the impression that they and 'Feminist Current' have a large constituency within Canadian feminism, then you simply don't know the domain very well. Very few major feminist publications or organizations in Canada support Meghan Murphy's FRINGE positions. Newimpartial (talk) 00:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Canada is not the only country in the world, and is far from being the only English speaking country. Also, do you think Wikipedia is supposed to support queer politics? -Crossroads- (talk) 19:15, 30 July 2019 (UTC) updated -Crossroads- (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- @EllsworthSK: could you spell out exactly what wording you are now threatening to remove, presumably this threat includes deliberately ignoring the archives of past discussions, dispute resolution processes and so on, because you have some greater role here than the existing community consensus and do not subscribe to BRD? If I'm misreading your threat, do please correct me with some precise and accurate words.
- Thanks! --Fæ (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- I can't help but read this as an attempt to preemptively stop edits one does not like and to use past discussions and alleged consensus as a cudgel to lock down this article a certain way, even though consensus can change. -Crossroads- (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, some people think that BRD is censorship, because they disagree with what almost everyone else finds to be simple fact. TERFs are a self promoting small group of people that use the established banner of "feminist" to attack the rights of trans women, while simultaneously claiming that they fully respect trans women (while frequently calling them "male sex", TIM, or some other sly way of avoiding calling them women) so they literally cannot be transphobes. Logically, that's a nearly identical argument to Trump claiming today that "I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world", and somehow that being a valid reason to avoid calling out his racist comments as "racist" in the article about Trump. That's not how an encyclopaedic that puts knowledge first should work.
- BTW, Wikipedia using established cultural or historical queer publications as sources for information about Trans people is not "you think Wikipedia is supposed to support queer politics". Lay off the anti-queer politics spin, that's not what is being said here by anyone; see gaslighting. --Fæ (talk) 19:41, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think your comparison of so-called "TERFs" with Trump supporters and racists is very extreme and shows that you have a very strong personal opinion on this matter. I'm a bit baffled that you don't see this? I mean no disrespect, but it's irritating. Many of these women are life long feminist activists and radical feminists, who have nothing to do with conservatives at all except that they occasionally have very superficial agreements. I'm sure queer people also have superficial agreements with conservatives, which means nothing. (Association fallacy.) Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Threatening? Haha, you are a handful. As far as your gatekeeping is concerned, may I suggest thinking of a wikibreak? AGF went out of window some time ago, I wont bother trying to make it work in any possible way but this is not your article. Stop thinking about it in a manner as if you owned it. As for the content in question, for now I am looking at the lead with word majority that even this gatekeeping failed to source. I am not impressed by it and I am not impressed by someone with such an edit tally, and thus should know better behaving in this manner, throwing here off-topic nonsenses about all the Trumps and whatnot of the world. Pathetic. You know better than anyone here what the rules are given your seniority and you are willingly choosing to ignore them. EllsworthSK (talk) 23:40, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- I can't help but read this as an attempt to preemptively stop edits one does not like and to use past discussions and alleged consensus as a cudgel to lock down this article a certain way, even though consensus can change. -Crossroads- (talk) 19:18, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Since I prefer to write (and edit) what I know, I will talk about Canada. In Canada, the vast majority of official and unofficial feminist organizations are trans-inclusionary, with Quebec's most important feminist organization led by a trans woman last year. TERF organizing in Canada, on the other hand, is largely confined to a minority within British Columbia around 'Feminist Current'. That is what all the reliable sources for Canada would tell you, if you bothered to look. Actual RS are not hard to find, even if you have never heard of a zine (and queer politics, FWIW, derived largely from zines in the first instance - advertising your unfamiliarity with feminist and queer movements might not be the best credential to edit this page...) Newimpartial (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Wanda: Our sources are this, this and this (all with a definite anti-TERF bias), and this with a pro-TERF bias. I think two news articles (one with a direct quote from TERFs saying that they are a minority) and two opinions from professors is enough to say we've sourced this reliably even though we don't have precise statistics.
- (This is also basically my reply to the other discussion: these are the reliable sources, and if you don't like what they say, tough.) LokiTheLiar (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Loki. I don't see how the article you called "pro-TERF" is not neutral. It seems to give equal voice and credence to the opposing sides in the debate, and I don't believe that either side is better represented among society so I don't think a "due weight" issue would apply either. I would be interested if you have any citation that shows that so-called "TERF" positions are less represented among the general public than the "anti-TERF" positions or whatever they're called. For instance, I'm pretty sure that most people think transwomen shouldn't compete in women's sports, most people think transwomen are biologically male, and so on. Please correct me (with citations :-) if I'm wrong. Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Rhinocera,
most people think transwomen are biologically male
That's a little tautological. "biologically male" is another term for "assigned male at birth" (based on based on medical factors). So yeah, most transwomen were assigned male at birth. That does not establish that "most people" think transwomen are not women. Vexations (talk) 22:54, 30 July 2019 (UTC)- The two terms are not really equivalent. One is present tense, one is past tense. According to this 2017 Pew survey, 54% of American adults think being a man or woman is determined by sex at birth, and 44% think it can be different. And for the record, I think it can differ. -Crossroads- (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
- Rhinocera,
- Hello Loki. I don't see how the article you called "pro-TERF" is not neutral. It seems to give equal voice and credence to the opposing sides in the debate, and I don't believe that either side is better represented among society so I don't think a "due weight" issue would apply either. I would be interested if you have any citation that shows that so-called "TERF" positions are less represented among the general public than the "anti-TERF" positions or whatever they're called. For instance, I'm pretty sure that most people think transwomen shouldn't compete in women's sports, most people think transwomen are biologically male, and so on. Please correct me (with citations :-) if I'm wrong. Rhino (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- Well, because there isn't one. But once you take the wikipedia as your ideological battlegroup, right Newimpartial?, then sources are suddenly not necessary. Also this will shock some to their core, but analysis are generally within Opinion sections of any proper reliable source (and here comes me again pointing to fact that RSP specifically refers to Daily Dot as RS within context of internet culture and if one would bother reading the RS attribution that it links to, you can see consensus on them not being one outside of that context), see CNN for instance. Also Alex Dalbey is a writer and zinester according to their own description on Daily Dot webpage and I detest the fact that I had to google what zinester means. If they don't refer to themselves as journalist, I really don't see why I should enforce such attribution on them. So, let's give it a ... week, let's say. That generally acceptable time frame to provide RS. If no RS appears until then, I am removing that wording. If you don't like it, you can bring it to ANI. This reeks of NPOV, LEADNO and other violations. Because I can't say that I am impressed by what rest of the world knows. If it knows it, it should put it in RS. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that transphobes are, thankfully, probably a minority within feminism, but I'm also skeptical that we have solid sourcing for the claim. WanderingWanda (talk) 08:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)