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: Additionally, Taylor Swift's folklore is not a notable album in the history of the surprise album. There is no reason for it to be added in the history section. I get that if one really likes Taylor Swift they may want to write a lot about her where it may not be necessary or relevant, but we need this article to be [[WP:NPOV|neutral]] and for everything to be treated with [[WP:DUE|due weight]]. [[User:Bgkc4444|Bgkc4444]] ([[User talk:Bgkc4444|talk]]) 21:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444 |
: Additionally, Taylor Swift's folklore is not a notable album in the history of the surprise album. There is no reason for it to be added in the history section. I get that if one really likes Taylor Swift they may want to write a lot about her where it may not be necessary or relevant, but we need this article to be [[WP:NPOV|neutral]] and for everything to be treated with [[WP:DUE|due weight]]. [[User:Bgkc4444|Bgkc4444]] ([[User talk:Bgkc4444|talk]]) 21:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444 |
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:: It is your personal opinion that these other albums constitute a "grey area". All albums added here are well sourced as surprise albums. [[User:Fezmar9|Fezmar9]] ([[User talk:Fezmar9|talk]]) 01:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC) |
:: It is your personal opinion that these other albums constitute a "grey area". All albums added here are well sourced as surprise albums. [[User:Fezmar9|Fezmar9]] ([[User talk:Fezmar9|talk]]) 01:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC) |
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::: As the source I brought says, those albums had secret recording sessions and unconventional release strategies, not surprise releases. I personally agree that these other albums should be included in this article, but StatsFreak did have genuine concerns and it's best to gain consensus on this issue instead of edit warring with each other. Again, if we are to leave these albums in, we should be making it clear in what way they are surprise albums so readers can understand the evolution of the surprise album. [[User:Bgkc4444|Bgkc4444]] ([[User talk:Bgkc4444|talk]]) 09:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444 |
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::: According to how the lead defines "surprise album," there is no difference between an album that was announced ten days before release and an album that was not announced before release. {{xt|"refers to the release of an album with extremely minimal or no prior announcement, marketing or promotion."}} [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 05:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC) |
::: According to how the lead defines "surprise album," there is no difference between an album that was announced ten days before release and an album that was not announced before release. {{xt|"refers to the release of an album with extremely minimal or no prior announcement, marketing or promotion."}} [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 05:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:::: The ''Folklore'' paragraph might be a bit too long on detail for ''this'' article's focus - I'd ditch or condense the last two quotes. Otherwise, reliable sources seem to connect the release to the surprise-album phenomenon ([https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/taylor-swift-folklore-surprise-album-1033102/ "Taylor Swift Finally Abandoned the Traditional Album Rollout"], ''Rolling Stone''). [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 05:26, 4 September 2020 |
:::: The ''Folklore'' paragraph might be a bit too long on detail for ''this'' article's focus - I'd ditch or condense the last two quotes. Otherwise, reliable sources seem to connect the release to the surprise-album phenomenon ([https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/taylor-swift-folklore-surprise-album-1033102/ "Taylor Swift Finally Abandoned the Traditional Album Rollout"], ''Rolling Stone''). [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 05:26, 4 September 2020 hutch |
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:::: Isento! Curious to see you follow me to a third talk page discussion! Yes, that's what the lead said (before you changed it) but just because one editor added that doesn't mean that everyone agrees. Regarding folklore, the point of the prominent surprise albums section is to lay out the albums connected to the surprise-album phenomenon. This article should not contain puffery-filled advertisements for specific projects. I kindly ask you to stop making edits to material if we are in the middle of a discussion on that material. Thank you! [[User:Bgkc4444|Bgkc4444]] ([[User talk:Bgkc4444|talk]]) 09:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444 |
Revision as of 09:40, 4 September 2020
Albums C‑class | |||||||
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Beyonce & Definition of "Surprise"
With these edits[1][2][3] StatsFreak has edited or reverted to a previous edit that (a) cast a light on other artists suggesting their albums were not true surprises only "loose surprises" which is not supported by any source, (b) suggested Beyonce is the only artist to ever release a true surprise album, (c) suggested that her surprise album is the reason albums are now released on Friday (this has nothing to do with the surprise nature of the release, just that it was released on a Friday, making this a totally irrelevant fact) and (d) in a very Kanye West move StatsFreak completely deleted Taylor Swift's entire paragraph without explanation despite her album Folklore being widely considered to be a significant surprise release.
StatsFreak's edit comments suggest a true surprise has zero mention prior to release. This strict definition would actually exclude Beyonce's 2013 self-titled album because she began talking about it a year ahead of its release[4][5] then Ne-Yo gave an update on the album in June[6] then MTV started putting the promotional pieces together about what Beyonce was up to[7] and Vulture even guessed she might release a surprise album the week it was officially released.[8] That doesn't sound very surprise-y to me. Instead, I think this page should adopt a less strict definition where an album sees minimal promotion or announcement (not zero) and we should just stick to what reliable sources say are surprises or not surprises. The "Reception" section currently includes commentary about how the term is ill-defined. Fezmar9 (talk) 20:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- StatsFreak is correct. It is questionable whether these albums can be considered a true "surprise album". There is a difference between an album that was announced ten days before release (e.g. In Rainbows) and an album that was not announced before release (e.g. Beyoncé). As Lindsay Zoladz for Vulture wrote here, "Artists like Radiohead and David Bowie had previously toyed with secret recording sessions and unconventional release strategies, but the day the bubble truly burst was December 13, 2013 — when Beyoncé “changed the game with that digital drop” (as she later put it in her guest verse on Nicki Minaj’s “Feeling Myself”) and released her blockbuster self-titled visual album with no prior promotion". If we are to leave these more grey-area albums in this article, then it needs to be explained clearly how they are surprise albums, what their release strategies were and why they are considered notable albums in the history of the surprise album.
- Additionally, Taylor Swift's folklore is not a notable album in the history of the surprise album. There is no reason for it to be added in the history section. I get that if one really likes Taylor Swift they may want to write a lot about her where it may not be necessary or relevant, but we need this article to be neutral and for everything to be treated with due weight. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444
- It is your personal opinion that these other albums constitute a "grey area". All albums added here are well sourced as surprise albums. Fezmar9 (talk) 01:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
- As the source I brought says, those albums had secret recording sessions and unconventional release strategies, not surprise releases. I personally agree that these other albums should be included in this article, but StatsFreak did have genuine concerns and it's best to gain consensus on this issue instead of edit warring with each other. Again, if we are to leave these albums in, we should be making it clear in what way they are surprise albums so readers can understand the evolution of the surprise album. Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444
- It is your personal opinion that these other albums constitute a "grey area". All albums added here are well sourced as surprise albums. Fezmar9 (talk) 01:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
- According to how the lead defines "surprise album," there is no difference between an album that was announced ten days before release and an album that was not announced before release. "refers to the release of an album with extremely minimal or no prior announcement, marketing or promotion." isento (talk) 05:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
- The Folklore paragraph might be a bit too long on detail for this article's focus - I'd ditch or condense the last two quotes. Otherwise, reliable sources seem to connect the release to the surprise-album phenomenon ("Taylor Swift Finally Abandoned the Traditional Album Rollout", Rolling Stone). isento (talk) 05:26, 4 September 2020 hutch
- Isento! Curious to see you follow me to a third talk page discussion! Yes, that's what the lead said (before you changed it) but just because one editor added that doesn't mean that everyone agrees. Regarding folklore, the point of the prominent surprise albums section is to lay out the albums connected to the surprise-album phenomenon. This article should not contain puffery-filled advertisements for specific projects. I kindly ask you to stop making edits to material if we are in the middle of a discussion on that material. Thank you! Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444