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:The claim that what Miller has said is "false" is an opinion (a point of view). There is no proof that millions of people who are registered in multiple states did not in fact do so. There is no proof that dead Americans that are still registered to vote did not, in fact vote. Therefore, we cannot yet say that his statement (again, [[WP:CLAIM]] provides helpful guidance with the language, here) is false. The problem is that if Miller or another administration official does in fact produce evidence of widespread voter fraud, then this article will need to be altered to read "The statements first appeared to be false, but were then proven to be correct." The current verbiage does not allow for the possibility for production of the aforementioned evidence. While I'm sure {{u|Neutrality}} is in fact a brilliant individual, his opinion is still just that. An opinion. |
:The claim that what Miller has said is "false" is an opinion (a point of view). There is no proof that millions of people who are registered in multiple states did not in fact do so. There is no proof that dead Americans that are still registered to vote did not, in fact vote. Therefore, we cannot yet say that his statement (again, [[WP:CLAIM]] provides helpful guidance with the language, here) is false. The problem is that if Miller or another administration official does in fact produce evidence of widespread voter fraud, then this article will need to be altered to read "The statements first appeared to be false, but were then proven to be correct." The current verbiage does not allow for the possibility for production of the aforementioned evidence. While I'm sure {{u|Neutrality}} is in fact a brilliant individual, his opinion is still just that. An opinion. |
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:Whether or not left-wing reporters are eligible for “buckets of Pulitzers” I believe is not particularly irrelevant in this case. The Washington Post is generally accepted as a quite liberal newspaper (I don't think anyone would dispute that), and thus it would benefit the article to include material from centrist and conservative sources to avoid the appearance of POV. If the text from the Post is in fact true, then non-liberal sources will echo the same facts. [[User:The Patriot Way|The Patriot Way]] ([[User talk:The Patriot Way|talk]]) 18:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC) |
:Whether or not left-wing reporters are eligible for “buckets of Pulitzers” I believe is not particularly irrelevant in this case. The Washington Post is generally accepted as a quite liberal newspaper (I don't think anyone would dispute that), and thus it would benefit the article to include material from centrist and conservative sources to avoid the appearance of POV. If the text from the Post is in fact true, then non-liberal sources will echo the same facts. [[User:The Patriot Way|The Patriot Way]] ([[User talk:The Patriot Way|talk]]) 18:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC) |
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::Nope, that's not how the world works, much less Wikipedia. The [[WP:BURDEN|burden of proof]] is on the person asserting the claim to prove its truth, not on everyone else to prove its falsity. It is, among [[WP:RS|mainstream reliable sources]], undisputed that the claim is false — that there is no evidence that "millions of people who are registered in multiple states" voted illegally and that there is no evidence that voter fraud meaningfully affected the election. This is what reliable sources say, and [[WP:V|Wikipedia content is based upon what is verifiable in reliable sources]]. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 19:11, 14 February 2017 (UTC) |
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Article needs rework
Puff piece. Wikipietime (talk) 08:17, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Father's donations
Probably this is his father, though we need to have a source. But the article says "Miller grew up in a liberal-leaning Jewish family in Santa Monica, California.[2] Though his parents were Democrats,..." This is what reliable sources (WSJ and Politico say). The early donations are to Democrats Bill Bradley and Berman. This donation history is consistent with his father switching from D to R over time (maybe under his son's influence?) Also, it says nothing about his mother's opinion or the rest of the family's. Until reliable sources dispute the 'liberal FDR Democrats' claim, we can't put this in. NPalgan2 (talk) 00:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Mother is equally supportive https://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search.php?name=miller%2C+miriam&cycle=All&sort=R&state=CA&zip=&employ=CORDARY&cand=&submit=Submit+Query
This obituary and WSJ article demonstrate linkage between parents and Stephen http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?pid=174041987 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-midcentury-modern-malibu-retreat-for-8-million-1438787014
Asdfqwerzcxv (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, but no reliable secondary sources seem to have referred to this - so we can't put it in, following WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:OR. NPalgan2 (talk) 02:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, a section on these invisible threads would be acceptable. Wikipietime (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
About the Spencer connection
So, Mother Jones/Duke Chronicle are not enough to show ties between Miller and Richard Spencer because, among other reasons, Mother Jones is considered by some an unreliable liberal tabloid. But Spencer himself (who is... not liberal, to say the least) saying "Yes, it's true, I really told Mother Jones that" is also unreliable, so we don't put anything? We have X telling "I heard this from Y" and Y saying "Yes, I told X this" and it's not valid... why? Because reliable media like the New York Times weren't there to hear the conversation? I don't get it. LahmacunKebab (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
- There's WP:WEIGHT to consider - if only a few borderline sources cover something, the wikipedia article isn't supposed to include it. And while it is true that Spencer makes these claims, he could be lying - in fact other reliable sources seem reluctant to pick up this story, suggesting skepticism. Wikipedia doesn't indiscriminately include every dubious claim. NPalgan2 (talk) 10:08, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Is The News & Observer considered reliable? Now it's mentioned there too: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article130428894.html LahmacunKebab (talk) 19:45, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
- I was going to say I was surprised The News & Observer didn't come up in my search but I see it was just published today. News & Observer is a credible outlet, I have no objections to including the now-well-sourced content. Thanks for finding it. James J. Lambden (talk) 22:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Page title
Hi. I changed the page title from "Stephen Miller (political operative)" to "Stephen Miller (aide)" as I didn't really find the term political operative fitting or appropriate. Using "aide" seems marginally better, though it's certainly possible there's even better parenthetical we could use. I also looked at Stephen Miller (disambiguation) to assess the state of the Stephen Millers on the English Wikipedia. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:55, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- It did need to be changed, however, the man is the Senior Policy Advisor to the President of the United States. "Aide" is a demotion and wholly inaccurate in relation to his position. "Senior Advisor" is what the article title should contain, not "Aide". -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:25, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- I think you may be overstating the meaning of the word "aide." Here's an example article, albeit out of South Korea, that uses the term "former senior aide." Aide is also apparently used with this subject as well, for example this piece from USA Today and this piece from Reuters, both from February 12, 2017. This piece refers to Clinton's campaign communications directory as a "top aide." Given the evidence, I'm not sure why you think it's wholly inaccurate. That said, I'm not opposed to an article move, though I'm not sure "(senior advisor)" would be an improvement. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- He is simply not an aide. He's a senior advisor to the president. That's a hefty position, much more so than an aide ever would be. There's even an article on the position. You can see it here: Senior Advisor to the President of the United States. Please note that nowhere in the article does it state the Senior Advisor to the POTUS is an aide position. My suggestion is that the parenthetical title be changed to (Presidential advisor). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:58, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Ben Rhodes' article is at Ben Rhodes (White House staffer). So Stephen Miller (White House staffer) would be fine with me. (I don't object to either "aide" or "adviser" either—both are commonly used terms). Neutralitytalk 03:52, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Nothing wrong with it. But... is a senior advisor to the most powerful individual in the world really just a political advisor (since it's not politics he's only advising on)? He's actually a policy advisor, not a political advisor. I vote for presidential advisor. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:12, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Why is it even there? None of the people who held the office prior to him have (Aide, or Senior Advisor, or Political Operative) a parenthetical title after their name? Why not just leave it blank? Synapse001 (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Removed text, he was 16...
I removed this part (see diff below):
The person was (as the article states) at that time 16 years old. I think its way outside what an encyclopedia biography should mention, details about what a kid did in high school is just not interesting. The short sentence about him starting to appear on conservative talk radio is ok, but detailed descriptions about high shool meetings is not. Ulflarsen (talk) 19:08, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- Have replaced it per WP:BRD. The content gives background to his rise as a Conservative from a young age to where he is now (also at such a young age). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:17, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- To WV: I see no basis for your revert in WP:BRD. You state that the content "gives background to his rise as a Conservative from a young age". It is already in the article that he started to appear on "conservative talk radio". That meeting is simply a boring detail that tells me (and possibly many other reader's) nothing.
- I am not trying to get this removed as a fan of Miller, on the contrary I am deeply worried about the president he serves. But if we like a person or feel disgust, we should try our best to distance ourselves, pick out the essential material so anyone wanting to check out who this person is can get a correct a picture as possible. Ulflarsen (talk) 09:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
What do some of the others that have contributed think of this: NPalgan2, Wikipietime, James J. Lambden, MZMcBride, Neutrality, NorthBySouthBaranof, Lasersharp? Are detailed descriptions of what a 16-year old kid did in high school the new norm for biographies in Wikipedia? Ulflarsen (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- As an indicator of later activity, well, maybe. Compare Rush Limbaugh#Early life, which describes at some length the high school and college activities of that individual. It can be seen as an indicator of his early involvement in the field of politics, which seems to be his career area, and that could be seen as relevant. John Carter (talk) 22:19, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- That reasoning is precisely why the content belongs in this article, John Carter. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:24, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- In the ordinary case, I would say no, high-school-age activity should be omitted. But given (1) that this is something that Miller actually wrote for publication; (2) that it was actually published; (3) that other secondary sources have discussed it at some length; and (4) that it relates to his later career in politics, I think a short, well-sourced mention is OK. Neutralitytalk 01:35, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- OK to include, but I think the quote needs more context for NPOV. Reading the source, the quote is made in criticism of his school administrators' stance against the war in Afghanistan post 9-11. Lasersharp (talk) 01:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- I added context. My concern is not his age but due weight. The only source I can find is politico. Are there others? If not, I don't think the one article is sufficient (surfsantamonica.com is not RS.) James J. Lambden (talk) 03:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Unexplained edit by Thunderclap reverted
I have reverted this unexplained edit by Thunderclap (talk · contribs). The edit removes descriptive identifiers ("open-borders activist" and "anti-immigration website") and replaces them with, respectively, "liberal" and nothing at all. This is not a constructive or useful edit, obviously, as both of the prior descriptors are entirely necessary to define the boundaries of the debate — Peter Laufer is in favor of open borders and Peter Brimelow founded a website which is vehemently anti-immigration. Furthermore, it is without question that the National Policy Institute is both anti-Semitic and white supremacist, and those identifiers are clearly necessary to define the terms of the debate. In addition, weasel words are added to the section about Miller's purported relationship with Spencer — "unconfirmed reports" is not a phrase found in any of the cited reliable sources. For these reasons, the edit is unacceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:05, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps it's time to protect this page?
I've noticed that this article has been the target of significant vandalism (often from anonymous users) in the last few days -- and I mean, multiple acts of vandalism per day. Do you think it's time to request semi-protection at WP:RFP? Werónika (talk) 21:11, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Note on false claims
Claims that reliable sources unequivocally identify as false should be described as such. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: "Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice." We don't engage in false balance: "Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. ... We ... include and describe these ideas in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world."
Miller's claims about "voter fraud" are unambiguously and universally described by the reliable sources as false:
- Washington Post: "Stephen Miller’s bushels of Pinocchios for false voter-fraud claims";
- Washington Post again: "Stephen Miller ... advances false voter fraud claims");
- PolitiFact: "Miller went on to .... false talking points ... We rate the claim Pants on Fire.");
- NBC News: "Miller and Stephanopoulos] got into a heated exchange over Trump's false claims that millions illegally voted in the election";
- CNN: "debunked voter fraud claim" .. "repeated Trump's unsubstantiated claims ... But he provided no evidence to support that claim or other claims of widespread voter fraud.").
The claims should should be simply described as such. We certainly should not replace "false" with "controversial," which fails to accurately reflect the sources (the statements are controversial because they're false; we can mention that they are controversial, but that information must come in addition to, not in place of, the baseline reality that they are false). Nor should we even improperly distance ourselves by saying they were "described as false by mainstream sources." That's akin to hedging the statement "the moon is not made of green cheese" with a clause that says "according to scientists..." or "according to NASA." We should just give the truth, as reflected by the reliable sources, plainly and simply. Neutralitytalk 04:07, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- We're dealing with someone's bio, it's wikipedia's policy to be as npov as possible. as it stands, it's simply not npov, you're taking out even "according to wapo and politifact" part. There are various reliable sources that do not use unambiguous language regarding this matter, hence it is not "universally described" as you claim. Lasersharp (talk) 05:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- I've explained above exactly how our policy works. We don't give in-text attribution for plain facts ("according to..."), and in fact doing so is usually not desirable.
- Can you point to any significant, mainstream reliable sources which don't characterize the claim as false? Neutralitytalk 14:48, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- As the adage goes, Assert facts! jps (talk) 16:20, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- The claim that there was significant voter fraud is certainly unsubstantiated and probably false. The claim that there was some voter fraud must be true. Washington Post and CNN are highly partisan sources and I don't think we can report their opinions as facts. The claims are unsubstantiated but we don't know if they are false. NBeale (talk) 10:16, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- The many sources that have described these claims as "False." Not "probably false" but "false," "unsubstantiated," and "pants-on-fire false." And there is no evidence whatsoever that the "Washington Post and CNN are highly partisan sources." And these statements are not their "opinions"—they are reported facts. Neutralitytalk 14:48, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Neutrality, the factual falsity of these claims is basically undisputed by any mainstream reliable source. NPOV does not require us to say that "some people believe the sky is blue," because the sky is blue. Lasersharp, if you have found significant mainstream reliable sources which don't characterise the claim as false, I invite you to present them here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:23, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- WP:GEVAL is the relevant point here. The most WP:NPOV way to say this is the following: "Stephen Miller made unsubstantiated accusations of tens of thousands of fraudulent voters being bused in to vote in New Hampshire. Investigation into such claims have determined them to be false." jps (talk) 16:00, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- I also agree with user Neutrality. We have an overwhelming number of independent reliable sources that unambiguously call Miller's claim false so WP:ASSERT is completely appropriate. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:35, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
- Another vote in support of the position outlined by Neutrality. We are not in the business of equivocating in favor of a forced, "equal time for both sides" point of view. What Miller said was false. Not, "some media outlets reported that it was false while others disagreed". Not, "after an investigation performed by the Blah Blah Times, it was determined that..." etc. etc. What Miller said was false, period. And that is the way it should be presented. -- Hux (talk) 07:27, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Considering that there may be BLP issues involved here, I have added a note to the BLPN regarding this discussion. John Carter (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Neutrality, the problem with those sources, though, is that they're all loyal to the Democrats. Remember, NBC News people are openly liberal, with a long-standing tradition of pumping money into the DNC[1][2]. CNN can't be used here, due to the problem that their parent company, Time Warner, had a vested interest in getting Hillary Clinton into office, consistently breaking the top 10 of her largest financial backers[3]. The Washington Post, aside from hiring a crack-team of 20 reporters to perform opposition research on the then-candidate Trump (but not Clinton), has always been a very liberal publication, just as much as the Washington Times is conservative.[4]. Poltifact, of course, isn't a reliable source. That's a left-leaning blog, which chooses to call itself a "fact-checker." Do you have any moderate or conservative-leaning sources that we can use to make sure that the article maintains neutrality? The Patriot Way (talk) 00:36, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not even going to try to break this down because of the many, many flawed assumptions and statements in it. I'll only note that site-wide consensus, as established through an exhaustive RfC (MrX began that RfC, so I'm tagging him), is that Politifact is a highly reliable source. Neutralitytalk 01:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- Isn't it a tad premature to refer to allegations of voter fraud as "false"? If I say I have an apple, but have not yet pulled it out of my lunch pail, is my statement that I have an apple "false"? We could say, "I believe you do not have an apple," before I have produced it. But to say "You are falsely claiming that you have an apple" is erroneous and a logical fallacy. Therefore, the opinion/belief/point of view that I do not have an apple is all that remains.
- Let's find a way to rephrase this line regarding the voter fraud allegations: "...independent investigations into such claims have determined them to be false." Additionally, I note that the "independent investigations" referred to in the article are in fact derived from The Washington Post and Politifact (The Tampa Bay Times). Both are widely regarded as left-wing news outlets, which makes any label insinuating non-partisanship or bias-free reporting disingenuous[5][6]. I suggest we change the text to read either 1) "has not yet produced definitive evidence supporting his statements" or 2) "...Miller has been criticized by progressive news organizations for not providing hard evidence for his statements." We should also be mindful of WP:CLAIM while including material, here. Thoughts? The Patriot Way (talk) 00:50, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- No, just no. Your suggested "rewording" is not source-based or reality-based. He didn't "not yet produce definitive evidence" - he produced zero evidence at all. As for "left-wing": If you come at this from the premise that Washington Post and Tampa Bay Times reporting is "left-wing" then we are not going to get anywhere. Those sources are highly reliable, with buckets of Pulitzers. Neutralitytalk 01:10, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
So have any RS said there was wide spread voter fraud?Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
As has been brilliantly put by Neutrality, the claims by Miller are plain false.The abundance of mainstream WP:RS sources that describe his claim as unsubstantiated simply makes the utter falsity of his claim to be stated as a fact in Wikipedia's voice.Further, he didn't "not yet produce definitive evidence" - he produced null evidence at all.And please don't oppose the proposal with the BS claims of Washington Post, CNN etc. all being left-biased!Winged Blades Godric 13:25, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- The claim that what Miller has said is "false" is an opinion (a point of view). There is no proof that millions of people who are registered in multiple states did not in fact do so. There is no proof that dead Americans that are still registered to vote did not, in fact vote. Therefore, we cannot yet say that his statement (again, WP:CLAIM provides helpful guidance with the language, here) is false. The problem is that if Miller or another administration official does in fact produce evidence of widespread voter fraud, then this article will need to be altered to read "The statements first appeared to be false, but were then proven to be correct." The current verbiage does not allow for the possibility for production of the aforementioned evidence. While I'm sure Neutrality is in fact a brilliant individual, his opinion is still just that. An opinion.
- Whether or not left-wing reporters are eligible for “buckets of Pulitzers” I believe is not particularly irrelevant in this case. The Washington Post is generally accepted as a quite liberal newspaper (I don't think anyone would dispute that), and thus it would benefit the article to include material from centrist and conservative sources to avoid the appearance of POV. If the text from the Post is in fact true, then non-liberal sources will echo the same facts. The Patriot Way (talk) 18:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
- Nope, that's not how the world works, much less Wikipedia. The burden of proof is on the person asserting the claim to prove its truth, not on everyone else to prove its falsity. It is, among mainstream reliable sources, undisputed that the claim is false — that there is no evidence that "millions of people who are registered in multiple states" voted illegally and that there is no evidence that voter fraud meaningfully affected the election. This is what reliable sources say, and Wikipedia content is based upon what is verifiable in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:11, 14 February 2017 (UTC)