ClueBot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 3 discussions to Talk:Stefan Molyneux/Archive 5. (BOT) |
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:Well said. I see no great harm in leaving it out, but this is the rare case where a Stefan Molyneux video could be used as a source. I do not think Salon is universally unreliable, but I avoid it whenever possible. "Molyneux was raised Christian. His mother was Jewish" or similar is good enough. If this becomes controversial as with Yiannopoulos, we can judge based on those hypothetical sources. For now, one/two sentences is plenty. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 08:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC) |
:Well said. I see no great harm in leaving it out, but this is the rare case where a Stefan Molyneux video could be used as a source. I do not think Salon is universally unreliable, but I avoid it whenever possible. "Molyneux was raised Christian. His mother was Jewish" or similar is good enough. If this becomes controversial as with Yiannopoulos, we can judge based on those hypothetical sources. For now, one/two sentences is plenty. [[User:Grayfell|Grayfell]] ([[User talk:Grayfell|talk]]) 08:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC) |
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::Have a listen to the video, if you fancy. What he says is "my mother came from a pretty Jewish clan..." -- nothing about her religion -- and then goes on to say how these folks lived openly in Dresden throughout the Nazi regime until the firebombing near the end of WW2. Extraordinary. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 15:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC) |
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Molyneux's Background
This article seems to be protected for disingenuous reasons as any entries about Molyneux's background are instantly deleted where the user who reverts will reject such entries for not being "Secondary Sources" yet will keep up entries about Molyneux's theories which are Primary Sources which are in themselves subject to a greater deal of nuance and interpretation by virtue of the fact discussions of politics are more abstract yet entries inserted of Molyneux himself detailing his ethnic/religious/cultural origin are very quickly deleted. So which is it? An article Molyneux writes about political theory can be cited and used to write up an entire section in 'Stateless Society' but his own religious background and upbringing as cited by himself on numerous occasions can not? When the former is morhttp://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/10E4169AE30BF068/0EB2D3A803A21E8C?s_lang=en-USe subject to change and the latter is grounded in reality and cannot?
Also, this specific user in question, SPECIFICO, wrote this in the article earlier this month:
"Cheap at half the price! Instantly delivered to your Kindle. Philosophy. SPECIFICO talk 00:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)"
What exactly was meant by this? And is this the calibre of a "Veteran Editor"? I now see it fit to report this user under the suspicion that their edits are motivated by some cause other than neutrality. Rìgh (talk) 19:41, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, you have it backwards. One's beliefs are whatever one says they are, hence we use self-described beliefs in limited circumstances. Facts about one's family, however, are nevertheless facts. Like any other facts, they may be misremembered, falsified, obscured, or fabricated. SPECIFICO talk 19:58, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- "Actually, you have it backwards. One's beliefs are whatever one says they are" This is highly dubious which is why when writing an article, a user should put "X claims Y" or "X states that they believe Y". Why is Molyneux's racial background (which has been confirmed multiple times by himself) removed but the fact he was born in Ireland is not questioned? Or the date at which he moved? Those two 'facts' are found in an article (Reference #9 as of now) that is stuck behind a paywall and therefore cannot be confirmed and whose reporters like the other articles are receiving that very information from Molyneux himself. I understand the position from which you come but I find this highly suspicious. No secondary sources can be found by myself at this moment pertaining to the information I entered into the article, so what happens? His background is essentially left bare and gives a false impression that Molyneux is ethnically Irish or grew up religiously Christian. Rìgh (talk) 20:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- This article would be better if all the self-sourced, primary-sourced, video, bloggo, youtube, self-published, and promotional content were removed. You'll get no objection from me if you delete it all. Just don't put the Jewish family stuff back in unless you have an independent, reliable source that verifies it. (There is none). SPECIFICO talk 20:38, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- I doubt there will be a Secondary Source in the near future. Would you accept an insert which says, "Molyneux has stated in previous podcasts that his mother was Jewish" or "Molyneux claims that his mother fled Dresden in fear of allied bombing" or something in that vain? That will be true in the sense that it has indeed been claimed by him but not true in the definitive sense of having been confirmed by a Secondary Source. Rìgh (talk) 22:08, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- No. He could be saying his mother was an antelope and his father was an ostrich for whatever reason. It's simply unverified and not sourced. There are all kind of reasons he might be saying this. That's why we don't use it. SPECIFICO talk 23:30, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- "There are all kind of reasons he might be saying this. That's why we don't use it." What the hell does that mean? That sounds like you only want to remove the statements made by him because the editors have some ideological bias in connecting him with Jewishness or Judaism. Very strange indeed. Rìgh (talk) 00:27, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- You've made your point. It's rejected. Save your breath. SPECIFICO talk 00:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- To quote the person in question, Not an argument. Rìgh (talk) 00:35, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Molyneux himself also really likes to insinuate things without saying them. Insinuating that the only motive for rejecting this utterly unreliable trivia is antisemitism isn't an argument either. Instead, it's casting aspersions while also missing the point. If there were some valid reason, supported by reliable sources, to include this, it could be included. So for, nothing, so it shouldn't be added. Being a prolific self-publisher doesn't justify expanding this article. WP:DUE weight means this article's length should be proportional to reliable sources. He is not reliable, and this article shouldn't be padded out with kibbles and bits for undefined reasons. Grayfell (talk) 04:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- I didn't insinuate anti-Semitism or pro-Semitism and to talk about insinuation is not something a Wikipedia editor should do. It is no matter, this article will not be edited by myself to include Molyneux's ethnic origin until a sufficient Secondary source is published. Until then, sayonara. Rìgh (talk) 08:10, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Molyneux himself also really likes to insinuate things without saying them. Insinuating that the only motive for rejecting this utterly unreliable trivia is antisemitism isn't an argument either. Instead, it's casting aspersions while also missing the point. If there were some valid reason, supported by reliable sources, to include this, it could be included. So for, nothing, so it shouldn't be added. Being a prolific self-publisher doesn't justify expanding this article. WP:DUE weight means this article's length should be proportional to reliable sources. He is not reliable, and this article shouldn't be padded out with kibbles and bits for undefined reasons. Grayfell (talk) 04:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- To quote the person in question, Not an argument. Rìgh (talk) 00:35, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- You've made your point. It's rejected. Save your breath. SPECIFICO talk 00:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- I doubt there will be a Secondary Source in the near future. Would you accept an insert which says, "Molyneux has stated in previous podcasts that his mother was Jewish" or "Molyneux claims that his mother fled Dresden in fear of allied bombing" or something in that vain? That will be true in the sense that it has indeed been claimed by him but not true in the definitive sense of having been confirmed by a Secondary Source. Rìgh (talk) 22:08, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- This article would be better if all the self-sourced, primary-sourced, video, bloggo, youtube, self-published, and promotional content were removed. You'll get no objection from me if you delete it all. Just don't put the Jewish family stuff back in unless you have an independent, reliable source that verifies it. (There is none). SPECIFICO talk 20:38, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- "Actually, you have it backwards. One's beliefs are whatever one says they are" This is highly dubious which is why when writing an article, a user should put "X claims Y" or "X states that they believe Y". Why is Molyneux's racial background (which has been confirmed multiple times by himself) removed but the fact he was born in Ireland is not questioned? Or the date at which he moved? Those two 'facts' are found in an article (Reference #9 as of now) that is stuck behind a paywall and therefore cannot be confirmed and whose reporters like the other articles are receiving that very information from Molyneux himself. I understand the position from which you come but I find this highly suspicious. No secondary sources can be found by myself at this moment pertaining to the information I entered into the article, so what happens? His background is essentially left bare and gives a false impression that Molyneux is ethnically Irish or grew up religiously Christian. Rìgh (talk) 20:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
SPECIFICO seems to hold a strange belief that I am a Stefan Molyneux supporter and wish to clear his name from White Nationalism or Racism. That is NOT the case. I care about one thing and one thing alone, proving the TRUTH for Wikipedia. Stefan Molyneux has stated in MULTIPLE podcasts (they have been referenced) from the past and lectures[1] that he was born to a Jewish mother. The user in question has stated that if I produced a secondary source that confirms this alongside the primary ones, the information would be allowed to stay. So I did this in producing an article from Salon. The user in question then REMOVES this and claims that Molyneux never states he is Jewish in the podcasts even though this is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE from actually checking the references and I will provide the EXACT minute and second he states it.
Truth above all. I believe this user has a political agenda, of what kind, I do not know. All I know is that I MYSELF have no political agenda but the facts and the facts are this; Stefan Molyneux was born to a Jewish mother and if he covers this up nowadays for whatever reason then I shall prove this also. Rìgh (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Don't personalize your talk page comments. I'll leave notice on your talkpage. SPECIFICO talk 19:17, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Check out WP:NOTTRUTH too. What secondary sources say is most significant/important here. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:29, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
References
Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2017
To include the statement that Stefan Molyneux's Freedman Radio is a cult, is preposterous. Dark Net is not recognized as a body with the authority to pronounce such things, nor was there evidence given, nor was there reason for including it on Stefan's page EXCEPT to slander him and promote a Leftist ideology. 144.208.110.105 (talk) 23:08, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
- Many sources, of which Dark Net is only one, describe Freedomain as being cult-like, and Wikipedia includes several of these sources. These sources are reliable according to Wikipedia's standards. Grayfell (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2017
Stefan Molyneux is a libertarian, not part of the alt-right. Also, he was not a big supporter of President Trump's campaign. He has been critical to Trumps actions on numerous occasions, while supporting a few of his actions that are more libertarian in nature, rather than conservative. He is constantly called alt-right, but in reality he is a libertarian. Libertarians have some views that are similar to conservatives on certain issues, but they also have views that are similar to liberal views as well. Eirik929 (talk) 08:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Terra (talk) 09:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Wikipedia uses reliable sources, with a preference for independent sources. Wikipedia editors like you and me are not reliable, and Molneux is not independent. If you know of a reliable source which discusses his Libertarianism, or how not-alt-right he is, bring it forth for discussion. This is not a forum for general discussion or original research, so your individual assessment of Molyneux, or of the views of libertarians, are not helpful in improving this article. Grayfell (talk) 09:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- User:Eirik929—you may be right but your suggestions should take the form of wording supported by sources. In other words, please be more specific. Is there an edit that you would suggest? Where in the article would the change be made? What source would support your suggested edit? Also, consider creating a WP:USERPAGE and a user Talk page. Also, feel free to avail yourself of the Teahouse for various and sundry questions that you might have. Happy editing! Bus stop (talk) 09:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
jewish redux again
SPECIFICO I see your revert on the recent addition of Molyneux Jewish ancestry. Salon seems to back his judaism. Salon is generally considered an RS. The anonymous blogger is not alone in being a Jewish person making common cause with racist anti-Semites, however. Many leading figures associated with the alt-right are also Jewish themselves including Ramsey, Cernovich, Breitbart writer Milo Yiannopoulos, libertarian vlogger Stefan Molyneux and publishing entrepreneur Ezra Levant.
. Additionally, I am surprised by your statement regarding extraordinary claims. While that is indeed wikipeia policy, I think this is not an extraordinary claim. Many people are jewish or have jewish ancestry. We generally take their own word for it in biographical articles. In this case we have both Molyneux's own words, and secondary sources stating it in their own voice. To be sure, I don't think this is a super important bit of information, but I think your reasoning for removing it are not correct.ResultingConstant (talk) 18:51, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Salon is a dicey source to begin with. I would not in general use it for anything very complicated or needing investigation, fact-checking, or research. The author of this particular piece is described on their website as everything but a journalist. And what are you claiming? That he has "Jewish" DNA or blood lines like a horse or a dog? SPECIFICO talk 19:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Im saying nothing other than he has Jewish ancestry. YOUR statements comparing things to a horse or dog are very out of line and I suggest you redact them. There are a great many biographies that mention or discuss the ancestry and ethnicity of their subjects or their families. There are a great many biographies that mention or discuss the specific jewish ancestry and ethnicity of their subject or family. Its a common point of interest. That some people wish to use that fact arguing for or against certain points is irrelevant (and I certainly agree with you that such arguments are not encyclopedic and should not be included). But because a fact could be illegitimately used in an argument does not suddenly make that fact untrue or encyclopedic. ResultingConstant (talk) 19:29, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- ResultingConstant I don't know whether you've listened to how Molyneux uses the "Jewish Clan" bit in his Youtube video or whether you've read the previous talk page discussions of this, but they both shed additional light on the matter. SPECIFICO talk 20:03, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Im saying nothing other than he has Jewish ancestry. YOUR statements comparing things to a horse or dog are very out of line and I suggest you redact them. There are a great many biographies that mention or discuss the ancestry and ethnicity of their subjects or their families. There are a great many biographies that mention or discuss the specific jewish ancestry and ethnicity of their subject or family. Its a common point of interest. That some people wish to use that fact arguing for or against certain points is irrelevant (and I certainly agree with you that such arguments are not encyclopedic and should not be included). But because a fact could be illegitimately used in an argument does not suddenly make that fact untrue or encyclopedic. ResultingConstant (talk) 19:29, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Salon is ok, although I'd rather see a better (or several) sources for this. Ive trimmed the mention of his religion to what the salon ref actually supports though. The broader discussion, sourced to his own podcast, was quite undue emphasis imo. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Look at the writer. This is not RS for an extraordinary claim. If it is true, the only mention of it would not be a weak writer in a weak publication. (from WP sourcing POV) More important, "Jewish" is a religious belief and Molyneux has never to my knowledge claimed to be of that religion. He talks at length about his Christian upbringing and his atheism. I hope these editors can find proper sources, but meanwhile we can't rush to put likely nonsense or worse into this BLP. SPECIFICO talk 19:32, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
He talks at length about his Christian upbringing and his atheism
Hm that does make describing him as "Jewish" problematic. Let me see if I can find any more/better sources on this - I agree it should stay out pending this discussion. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:36, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Look at the writer. This is not RS for an extraordinary claim. If it is true, the only mention of it would not be a weak writer in a weak publication. (from WP sourcing POV) More important, "Jewish" is a religious belief and Molyneux has never to my knowledge claimed to be of that religion. He talks at length about his Christian upbringing and his atheism. I hope these editors can find proper sources, but meanwhile we can't rush to put likely nonsense or worse into this BLP. SPECIFICO talk 19:32, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—why do you perceive the claim of Molyneux being Jewish to be an "extraordinary claim"? Bus stop (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- I believe you and I have been around the circle on that one, so I won't repeat it. Do you think WP should tag people "Jewish" as a racial or genetic attribute rather than as a matter of religious belief and observance? You're aware, I presume, of Molyneux' extensive discussion of his upbringing as a church coirboy and his subsequent abandonment of religion. SPECIFICO talk 22:50, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—do you have any sources suggesting that Molyneux might not be Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 23:57, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's not how it works. The WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN is on proving it should be included. This content has a WP:REDFLAG all over it. An Irish Christian who is actually Jewish, even though his own videos discuss his rejection of religion. And his Jewish family lived happily in Dresden until near the end days of WW2. This is an extraordinary claim, and the default is to exclude. Valid content will have many indisputably Reliable Sources to verify and establish the noteworthiness of such content. SPECIFICO talk 00:04, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if Molyneux meets your preconceptions of what a Jew is. It is the sources that matter. I think you are conceding that you have no sources suggesting that Molyneux might not be Jewish. You are reverting other editors (here and here). In my opinion it is preposterous of you to ask if he has "DNA or blood lines like a horse or a dog." Not only is that original research but it is reflective of an incomplete understanding of how a person comes to be identified as a Jew. Bus stop (talk) 00:47, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- You've made several false statements in that post, but the crux is that the burden is on the editor who advocates to include, and this bit is not well-enough sourced for the claim it makes. Yes, there are abundant sources that describe Molyneux background and religious upbringing as being not Jewish. Please review the links I provided above. SPECIFICO talk 00:54, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Let's discuss this. What source supports that Molyneux may not be Jewish? Please post that source right here so that we can discuss it. I thank you in advance. Bus stop (talk) 01:14, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- I've responded several times, sorry. Please review this and the previous thread from when we initially discussed this. I don't have a source that says he's not an elephant, but I wouldn't suggest we put that in the article. And he does appear to walk on two legs. SPECIFICO talk 02:04, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- OK, you concede that you have no sources suggesting that he is not Jewish, therefore we should go with the sources suggesting that he is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- I've told you why that's incorrect. I strongly advise against it. SPECIFICO talk 02:43, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Why do you "strongly advise against it"? You don't seem to understand that this is a Talk page. You have only demonstrated one thing: that you don't want to discuss this issue. That is a funny position to take as you have reverted material related to this issue twice ([1][2]). Bus stop (talk) 03:12, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Jewish isn't an extraordinary claim. Salon reports it, Molyneu confirms it, no sources dispute it. Good enough for us. D.Creish (talk) 03:45, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- I've told you why that's incorrect. I strongly advise against it. SPECIFICO talk 02:43, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- OK, you concede that you have no sources suggesting that he is not Jewish, therefore we should go with the sources suggesting that he is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- I've responded several times, sorry. Please review this and the previous thread from when we initially discussed this. I don't have a source that says he's not an elephant, but I wouldn't suggest we put that in the article. And he does appear to walk on two legs. SPECIFICO talk 02:04, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Let's discuss this. What source supports that Molyneux may not be Jewish? Please post that source right here so that we can discuss it. I thank you in advance. Bus stop (talk) 01:14, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- You've made several false statements in that post, but the crux is that the burden is on the editor who advocates to include, and this bit is not well-enough sourced for the claim it makes. Yes, there are abundant sources that describe Molyneux background and religious upbringing as being not Jewish. Please review the links I provided above. SPECIFICO talk 00:54, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if Molyneux meets your preconceptions of what a Jew is. It is the sources that matter. I think you are conceding that you have no sources suggesting that Molyneux might not be Jewish. You are reverting other editors (here and here). In my opinion it is preposterous of you to ask if he has "DNA or blood lines like a horse or a dog." Not only is that original research but it is reflective of an incomplete understanding of how a person comes to be identified as a Jew. Bus stop (talk) 00:47, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's not how it works. The WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN is on proving it should be included. This content has a WP:REDFLAG all over it. An Irish Christian who is actually Jewish, even though his own videos discuss his rejection of religion. And his Jewish family lived happily in Dresden until near the end days of WW2. This is an extraordinary claim, and the default is to exclude. Valid content will have many indisputably Reliable Sources to verify and establish the noteworthiness of such content. SPECIFICO talk 00:04, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—do you have any sources suggesting that Molyneux might not be Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 23:57, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- I believe you and I have been around the circle on that one, so I won't repeat it. Do you think WP should tag people "Jewish" as a racial or genetic attribute rather than as a matter of religious belief and observance? You're aware, I presume, of Molyneux' extensive discussion of his upbringing as a church coirboy and his subsequent abandonment of religion. SPECIFICO talk 22:50, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—why do you perceive the claim of Molyneux being Jewish to be an "extraordinary claim"? Bus stop (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
After looking into this some, I'm uncomfortable with it: Molyneux has gone on record himself as saying his mother was Jewish. But he's also said that he was raised a Christian. People on the far right appear to have run with the "Jewish mother = Jewish" assumption and characterize him that way regularly (though in places, and via sources, that aren't RS for our purposes) but after looking quite carefully, I don't see where Molyneux has ever said he practices Judaism. I do see videos and blog posts online where he talks about having been raised Christian, though, and where he is quite critical of organized religion in general. So the question really is: what is meant by "Jewish" - it can be used to refer to someone of Jewish ethnicity (which, given Molyneux's own statements about himself, seems like what the Salon writer meant), but in general use it implies that he's a practicing Jew, which (again, based on his own statements) is pretty unlikely. Problem is: outside of the Salon piece I can't find a single RS that talks about his religion or mentions his religious upbringing. So we have the Salon piece on one hand and his own statements (which contradict a simple statement of "Molyneux is Jewish") on the other. IMO, we should either state what Molyneux himself has said (that his mother was Jewish, but he was raised as a Christian), and source it to his own statements, or remain silent on his religion altogether. Otherwise we risk misleading the reader by saying "he's Jewish" when he's not a practicing Jew, and is simply of Jewish ancestry on one side. Given that it's the only RS I can find saying he's Jewish (outside of Stormfront-type fringe stuff) and that his own statements appear to contradict that, hanging an ambiguous statement like "Molyneux is Jewish" on the Salon piece is undue weight on that one source. Fyddlestix (talk) 05:08, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Well said. I see no great harm in leaving it out, but this is the rare case where a Stefan Molyneux video could be used as a source. I do not think Salon is universally unreliable, but I avoid it whenever possible. "Molyneux was raised Christian. His mother was Jewish" or similar is good enough. If this becomes controversial as with Yiannopoulos, we can judge based on those hypothetical sources. For now, one/two sentences is plenty. Grayfell (talk) 08:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Have a listen to the video, if you fancy. What he says is "my mother came from a pretty Jewish clan..." -- nothing about her religion -- and then goes on to say how these folks lived openly in Dresden throughout the Nazi regime until the firebombing near the end of WW2. Extraordinary. SPECIFICO talk 15:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Relevance
Here we have an editor, Volunteer Marek, removing material relating to Molyneux being Jewish, with the edit summary "why would this be relevant?" The provided source tells us why this is relevant. The source says that "The anonymous blogger is not alone in being a Jewish person making common cause with racist anti-Semites, however. Many leading figures associated with the alt-right are also Jewish themselves including Ramsey, Cernovich, Breitbart writer Milo Yiannopoulos, libertarian vlogger Stefan Molyneux and publishing entrepreneur Ezra Levant."[3] The relevance is that Jewish people—Molyneux, among others—are "making common cause with racist anti-Semites". Bus stop (talk) 08:08, 15 December 2017 (UTC)