No edit summary |
somehow I"m still a noob |
||
Line 19: | Line 19: | ||
::Editors need to be cautious in citing the work of nationalist public figures originating from Balkan countries, including politicians or journalists. We have run into the same issue in the past, where editors have tried to cite the work of nationalist journalists from Croatia, Kosovo, Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia on sensitive articles, from Nazi regime in Croatia and the Srebrenica genocide, to the Macedonia Question. Certainly we do not need more of this. Don't we have another, better source that can confirm the historic person's death date? --<span style="color:#FF00FF">❤ [[User:SilentResident|'''S<small>ILENT</small>''']][[User talk:SilentResident|'''R<small>ESIDENT</small>''']] ❤</span> 18:10, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
::Editors need to be cautious in citing the work of nationalist public figures originating from Balkan countries, including politicians or journalists. We have run into the same issue in the past, where editors have tried to cite the work of nationalist journalists from Croatia, Kosovo, Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia on sensitive articles, from Nazi regime in Croatia and the Srebrenica genocide, to the Macedonia Question. Certainly we do not need more of this. Don't we have another, better source that can confirm the historic person's death date? --<span style="color:#FF00FF">❤ [[User:SilentResident|'''S<small>ILENT</small>''']][[User talk:SilentResident|'''R<small>ESIDENT</small>''']] ❤</span> 18:10, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
||
:I doubt that a guy who devoted part of his career to glorifying <small>(yes I am aware of the issue on that)</small> an Orthodox Albanian national hero supports ISIS (lol). But I can see how one could think he has < |
:I doubt that a guy who devoted part of his career to glorifying <small>(yes I am aware of the issue on that)</small> an Orthodox Albanian national hero supports ISIS (lol). But I can see how one could think he has <s>an anti-Greek</s> patriotic slant. Sadly a lot of scholars in the Balkans are uhh "patriotic" and he's one of the more overt ones. I'd probably get flack from the more nationalist Albanian editors (if they weren't mostly all banned, lol) for using Psomas on Albanian articles since he advocated giving the Sarande-Gjirokaster area to Greece in the temporal context, which is of course irredentism. But both are able to accurately report historical facts like the year someone died. |
||
: It's also true that when I first came to it, this article had some POV, with peacock and the word "patriot" everywhere. An article about a guy that was murdered by a (Vlach) Greek nationalist also can start to accrue anti-Greek POV if we aren't careful, but I've tried my best to keep it out. For example I chose to omit the details of how he was killed, as it's a small article and I don't want it taking up a large percent of the page. |
: It's also true that when I first came to it, this article had some POV, with peacock and the word "patriot" everywhere. An article about a guy that was murdered by a (Vlach) Greek nationalist also can start to accrue anti-Greek POV if we aren't careful, but I've tried my best to keep it out. For example I chose to omit the details of how he was killed, as it's a small article and I don't want it taking up a large percent of the page. |
||
: {{u|SilentResident}} the 1917 death date is basically in about half of the citations on the page, not just Mema, so any of them can be used to cite that, not just Mema. Similarly the stuff about his cheta shows up in many different sources. I think KTrimi told Vanja he had planned to work more on this article so he may have more sources on hand (or may not). |
: {{u|SilentResident}} the 1917 death date is basically in about half of the citations on the page, not just Mema, so any of them can be used to cite that, not just Mema. Similarly the stuff about his cheta shows up in many different sources. I think KTrimi told Vanja he had planned to work more on this article so he may have more sources on hand (or may not). |
||
: Also SR/Alexikoua I hope you didn't misunderstand and think on Western Europe I'm trying to exclude Greece there or anything. My view there is actually that Greece should be maintained in certain sections (economy, politics, not linguistics) and there should be better sourcing there rather than editors POVs. Sometimes I think my motives get misunderstood thanks to paranoid (esp Balkan) Wiki environment, and I know I myself can mistake peoples' motives so I wanted to explain that so I just wanted to make sure you understood that. Sorry that was long. --[[User:Kalinthos|Kalinthos]] ([[User talk:Kalinthos|talk]]) 19:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
: Also SR/Alexikoua I hope you didn't misunderstand and think on Western Europe I'm trying to exclude Greece there or anything. My view there is actually that Greece should be maintained in certain sections (economy, politics, not linguistics) and there should be better sourcing there rather than editors POVs. Sometimes I think my motives get misunderstood thanks to paranoid (esp Balkan) Wiki environment, and I know I myself can mistake peoples' motives so I wanted to explain that so I just wanted to make sure you understood that. Sorry that was long. --[[User:Kalinthos|Kalinthos]] ([[User talk:Kalinthos|talk]]) 19:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
||
::What do we do here then. Mema is cited alongside other sources which are scholarly for the same thing. Remove or keep then? On Melani's death, we have a strong source, the Pontificio Istituto orientale one. Best.[[User:Resnjari|Resnjari]] ([[User talk:Resnjari|talk]]) 19:21, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
::What do we do here then. Mema is cited alongside other sources which are scholarly for the same thing. Remove or keep then? On Melani's death, we have a strong source, the Pontificio Istituto orientale one. Best.[[User:Resnjari|Resnjari]] ([[User talk:Resnjari|talk]]) 19:21, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
||
::: Mema is reliable for his death. He just peppers his prose with patriotism, like many others. We can add the other one. Unless I misunderstand, this issue seems resolved. --[[User:Kalinthos|Kalinthos]] ([[User talk:Kalinthos|talk]]) 19:28, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
::: Keep and add. Mema is reliable for his death. He just peppers his prose with patriotism, like many others. We can add the other one. Unless I misunderstand, this issue seems resolved. --[[User:Kalinthos|Kalinthos]] ([[User talk:Kalinthos|talk]]) 19:28, 29 July 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:34, 29 July 2017
Albania Unassessed | ||||||||||
|
Inconsistencies
I wonder how can someone be "murdered" at 1917, as the article claims, but next year (1918) he traveled from USA to Albania to assist the national movement: [[1]].Alexikoua (talk) 16:56, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Another inconsistency is that according to this (http://www.shekulli.com.al/37603/ doesn't meet wp:HISTRS by the way) he was murder by "Albanian filo-greks" near Premet. No wonder during 1917-1918 the region was not under Greek control, so Greek gendarmes couldn't have him murdered.Alexikoua (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I wonder what makes a travelling journalist wp:rs in wikipedia. This counts especially when someone is banned in democratic countries due to endless nationalist activity [[2]]. The editor that restored this kind of 'historical' produced article may have some explanation for this.Alexikoua (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- The journalist works in a democratic country, i.e Albania. In the article it says "The Greek Foreign ministry was not reachable for a comment on Monday.". It was never elaborated why it banned the journalist apart from viewing him security threat which without other explanation is vague at best. The article also does not state it was due to nationalist activities which you seem to infer. What it does state though that he was doing news stories on the Chams, a sensitive matter in Greece.Resnjari (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Excatly as you said ... the journalist. There is nothing in wikipedia that makes tabloid journalism wp:rs. In fact there is a specific policy and such cases should be dealt with heavy precaution. In this case not only we have nothing close to academic & secondary, but just a product of a journalism thats popular among some nationalists that watch Albanian tv. You need to follow wp:rs and HISTRS and banned journalists do not belong here. Thus its up to you to prove that this person meets rs criteria else he is not part of this encyclopedia.Alexikoua (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- That is not what you were refering to before. Moreover, what constitutes as "tabloid journalism" in this' instance? What is your source/evidence to state that it has been determined as such? Wikipedia does not disqualify usage of news sources provided they meet the requirements of guidelines or other> WP:NEWSORG. On academic & secondary, the policy does note that "News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content". The onus is on you to show that it is not factual and the the news outlet in Albania does not meet requirements. So far you have not provided anything that shows Mema is a nationalist or a minor journalist in Albania, the reason given by you for deletion [3], yet alone something on the news outlet.Resnjari (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- The four times Mema article is cited in the article is relating to Melani's activates in a Ceta, the year and time of his death (not the perpetrators which i guess is the controversial part for non-Albanian editors) and in relation to the person who killed Melani that later was killed by another individual (the ceta and last bit is important outlines events related to Melani). How is this tabloid journalism ?Resnjari (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
That's yet another reason for removal: for being non sospecialist to the subject. Apart from being accused for spreading propaganda and banned for this reason, the same journalist is accused for sympathizing Islamic terrorism and ISIS [[4]] [[5]]. In general there is no rule in wikipedia that makes someone rs especially about history because he is simply.... a journalist. Even if he has good intention in a specific article as you may claim. For history articles we have wp:HISTRS and this reference doesnt meet the minimum requirements. Alexikoua (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ok, i read the Greek articles. Both say that Mema was working on a documentary on the historical Albanian presence (similar to Balkaninsight) in the Preveza area which the articles refer to as nationalist propaganda. It also says that Mema in one of his other reports talked to an imam who some years previously had prayed for fighters heading to Syria, which the article refers to as jihadists although Mema regretted the encounter with the imam thereafter. How did you get the conclusion that Mema is sympathizing with Islamic terrorism and ISIS, when even the article does not mention them? The Balkaninsight article on the other had states that "Mema, who was travelling to Greece with two friends for a short vacation, is only the latest in a number of Albanian citizens who have been denied entry into Greece for apparently political reasons." His disqualification from Greece was for political reasons. So two different views. Lets hear from others on this first. Mema after all is cited for non-contriversial matters relating to Melani's life.Resnjari (talk) 17:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Editors need to be cautious in citing the work of nationalist public figures originating from Balkan countries, including politicians or journalists. We have run into the same issue in the past, where editors have tried to cite the work of nationalist journalists from Croatia, Kosovo, Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia on sensitive articles, from Nazi regime in Croatia and the Srebrenica genocide, to the Macedonia Question. Certainly we do not need more of this. Don't we have another, better source that can confirm the historic person's death date? --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 18:10, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- I doubt that a guy who devoted part of his career to glorifying (yes I am aware of the issue on that) an Orthodox Albanian national hero supports ISIS (lol). But I can see how one could think he has
an anti-Greekpatriotic slant. Sadly a lot of scholars in the Balkans are uhh "patriotic" and he's one of the more overt ones. I'd probably get flack from the more nationalist Albanian editors (if they weren't mostly all banned, lol) for using Psomas on Albanian articles since he advocated giving the Sarande-Gjirokaster area to Greece in the temporal context, which is of course irredentism. But both are able to accurately report historical facts like the year someone died. - It's also true that when I first came to it, this article had some POV, with peacock and the word "patriot" everywhere. An article about a guy that was murdered by a (Vlach) Greek nationalist also can start to accrue anti-Greek POV if we aren't careful, but I've tried my best to keep it out. For example I chose to omit the details of how he was killed, as it's a small article and I don't want it taking up a large percent of the page.
- SilentResident the 1917 death date is basically in about half of the citations on the page, not just Mema, so any of them can be used to cite that, not just Mema. Similarly the stuff about his cheta shows up in many different sources. I think KTrimi told Vanja he had planned to work more on this article so he may have more sources on hand (or may not).
- Also SR/Alexikoua I hope you didn't misunderstand and think on Western Europe I'm trying to exclude Greece there or anything. My view there is actually that Greece should be maintained in certain sections (economy, politics, not linguistics) and there should be better sourcing there rather than editors POVs. Sometimes I think my motives get misunderstood thanks to paranoid (esp Balkan) Wiki environment, and I know I myself can mistake peoples' motives so I wanted to explain that so I just wanted to make sure you understood that. Sorry that was long. --Kalinthos (talk) 19:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)