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For this to be the best possible article I'll need to go through each book I have and extract information and once done it can be filed down to the most important points and some content moved into film articles or whatever. But it's going to take time and the article will likely get pretty huge during the process and some info will be added which might be better in the film article no his biography. But either way I still need to get the material onto here and find the best way to use the resources that I have. If this doesn't get too many changes, perhaps I should work on it in my sandbox. I'd like to overhaul a lot of the bloated sources and quote farms for a start.♦ [[User talk:Dr. Blofeld|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#aba67e">''Dr. Blofeld''</span>]] 21:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC) |
For this to be the best possible article I'll need to go through each book I have and extract information and once done it can be filed down to the most important points and some content moved into film articles or whatever. But it's going to take time and the article will likely get pretty huge during the process and some info will be added which might be better in the film article no his biography. But either way I still need to get the material onto here and find the best way to use the resources that I have. If this doesn't get too many changes, perhaps I should work on it in my sandbox. I'd like to overhaul a lot of the bloated sources and quote farms for a start.♦ [[User talk:Dr. Blofeld|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#aba67e">''Dr. Blofeld''</span>]] 21:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:As noted above, you are clearly overloading article sections with trivia along with quotes. The goal is to ''remove'' trivia and needless quotes. Now that Schrocat is joining your team, the problems noted with the Sellers article is now even more relevant. Rather than flood the sections with trivia that needs to be trimmed out, how about adding your section edits to [[Talk:Stanley Kubrick/sandbox2]], first. The idea of first adding minutia and ''then'' deciding what should be kept in, will not work, so kindly do your drafts in the sandbox. --[[User:Light show|Light show]] ([[User talk:Light show|talk]]) 08:04, 11 August 2014 (UTC) |
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Steadicam photo
The photo showing Kubrick and Brown at work with the steadicam, File:Steadicam-sm.jpg, was removed by User:Werieth as not having any supporting critical commentary. However, there are about seventeen mentions to the steadicam, with entire paragraphs discussing it and its significance to Kubrick's films. I'm assuming that the image was removed in error without the editor having taken the time to find or read the supporting text. --Light show (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- You could mention the steadycam 1000 times and it wouldn't be critical commentary. We dont need a non-free image of Kubrick and the inventor to know the two worked together at some point. There is nothing in the image itself that text alone cannot replace, and it serves little more than eye candy. Werieth (talk) 10:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree. It also shows Brown working with the Steadicam itself. Its use is discussed in the article and it is a rare image that benefits readers. It should be restored. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 19 October 2013
Please add David Barckhoff - Director to the section of "Film Director's influenced by Kubrick". "I owe my directing and acting style to Stanley Kubrick. I try to incorporate his style of directing movies and his unique way of relating to actors on set during numerous film takes just as he did". Reference quote as told to book author Jill Vanderwood for her book on "Hollywood celebrities and how they overcame the fear of public speaking". Book is being published end of Sept. 2013. quote also on my internet movie database biography.
NAVYMEDIC610 (talk) 19:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
- Please provide book info with publisher, page numbers, quotes, etc. after the book is released. Any links would also be helpful. --Light show (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
- Not done: directors mentioned in that section are "leading directors" and pretty much all of them are household names. Barckhoff's only directorial credits on IMDb are two episodes of a TV minseries, for which he served as "second assistant director: second unit". He has no Wikipedia article and it's doubtful that one would even meet the notability criteria. --Stfg (talk) 20:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
- Plus, end Sept 2013 has passed, and no book by Jill Vanderwood with a title like that is listed on Google Books. --Stfg (talk) 21:01, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 1 November 2013
Typo: Under the sub-heading "writing and staging scenes" in the last sentence. "cinematograpy" should be "cinematography".
Hudsonmd (talk) 04:59, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Done --Light show (talk) 05:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Stanley Kubrick/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 12:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
At 99715 characters of readable prose, this seems to be overly detailed, but I will take a look at this and see what advice I can give. I will take a look at policies and guidelines such as WP:SIZE, WP:SS, WP:CFORK. Of the 16717 WP:GAs as of February 1, 2013 only 5 were this long and less than 1% (164 to be exact) were longer than 61 KB of readable prose according to User:The ed17/Good articles by prose size. I am very likely to pursue scaling this back to a size that is not in the top 1%. However, I will take a closer look.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- As of April 19, 2014, there were 19873 GAs and only 8 of them were this long. Only 228 of the 19873 (1.147%) are longer than 60KB. Thus, if you wish to proceed with this GA keep in mind that I will hope to do for this what I did for Clint Eastwood, which was guide it from well over 90KB to around 60KB.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:05, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- P.S. to the best of my recollection, the longest WP:GAs I have passed are Chevrolet Volt (currently 85535 characters of readable prose, but 57858 when I passed it), Clint Eastwood (70000/60703) and Missouri River (64685/54953). BTW Eastwood was 93327 when the review began.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- By my count the article has 10 {{citation needed}} templates. That is about 1 per 10KB prose, which is very close to quickfail standards for me. However, due to the importance of the topic, I will not QF the article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- One of the first things that I notice is that the Career section is 41336 characters of readable prose. However 14 or 15 of the 18 subsections should all lead with {{main}} tags. I think we should examine the content in this section since anything here should also be included in a dedicated article. Since I want to cut about 40% overall, we should cut this section heavily and probably an above average amount because not all sections will have logical places to send forked content. I understand that since you are use to seeing so much here it may seem odd to do, but let's try to reduce this section by over 50% to under 20KB. It is very easy to do this without WP losing any content because every film has its own article where the removed content can be WP:PRESERVEd.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- WP:QUOTEFARM - even in the lead. No need for so much copyrighted material as most can be re-written to summarised the copy and pasted quotes. Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited. -- Moxy (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- I am FAILing this. The nominator have been quite active in recent days but has shown not interest in teding to any of these issues.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Kubrick's Odyssey: Secrets Hidden in the Films of Stanley Kubrick; Part One: Kubrick and Apollo
Dear Stanley Kubrick wiki editors,
Have any of you seen the above mentioned documentary? It may be of interest to his article, if anyone cares to view it and contribute:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1992167/
MerlynDanielMali (talk) 19:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- In Kubrick's Odyssey, Part I, Kubrick and Apollo, author and filmmaker, Jay Weidner presents compelling evidence of how Stanley Kubrick directed the Apollo moon landings.
- I have watched at least part of it. IMO, Weidner is a few cards short of a deck. Just my opinion, but I think it is widely shared. It is one of those home-made youtube style movies that manages to be both wacky and not very interesting all at the same time. I think there is a brief mention of Kubrick conspiracy theories on this page, but I don't think it deserves undue weight here. There is more discussion of it on the moon landing hoax page as well as at Puddytang (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- In the popular media, any producer who can somehow get the word "Secret" into the title, gets their film moved (pushed) up the ladder. Print media, especially tabloids, thrive on uncovering so-called "secrets," even trivial ones. Some producers, assuming that maybe the word "secret" isn't enough to promote their film to us average folk, will embellish the title, and throw in "hidden secrets," (as opposed to unhidden secrets?) In any case, it doesn't matter what wiki editors think, since their opinions are not usable. Only published reliably sourced neutral commentary could be added. --Light show (talk) 20:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Quotefarm
With around 60 quotations here, the article is creaking and looks like it was written by a 12-year-old who has just learned ctrl-C, ctrl-V. We are definitely in WP:QUOTEFARM territory. I have not looked at just how it got so bad (it wasn't always like this) but does anybody fancy helping to trim it back to something like an encyclopedia article? --John (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- While I think it's good to tighten many of the quotes into paraphrases, my only concern so far is that dequoting for sake of dequoting only, without considering color, variety, prose and authenticity, could ultimately bleach the article into dry choppy sentencing. Taking one paragraph as an example which, IMHO, has some of those problems:
- Before
- A friend of Kubrick's family notes that although his father was a prominent doctor, "Stanley and his mom were such regular people.
- They had no airs about them."
- As a boy, he was considered "bookish" and generally uninterested in activities in his Bronx neighborhood.
- According to a friend, "When we were teenagers hanging around the Bronx, he was just another bright, neurotic, talented guy—just another guy trying to get into a game with my softball club and mess around with girls."
- Many of his friends from his "close-knit neighborhood" would become involved with his early films, including writing music scores and scripts.
- Revised
- A friend of Kubrick's family notes that although his father was a prominent doctor, Stanley and his mother were unpretentious.
- As a boy, he was considered "bookish" and generally uninterested in activities in his Bronx neighborhood.
- According to a friend, Kubrick was one of a group of talented people as a teenager.
- Many of his friends from his "close-knit neighborhood" became involved with his early films, including writing music scores and scripts.
--Light show (talk) 20:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- "color, variety, prose and authenticity" - we're an encyclopedia, the aspects of "color" and "variety" should only be there to keep the writing engaging, but not to try to put Kubrick on a pedestal, where it would be more appropriate for a biographical book. Quotes should only be used where paraphrasing is not possible to summarize the thoughts provided. --MASEM (t) 20:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- I prefer to go by suggested guidelines for using quotations:
Quotations are a fundamental attribute of Wikipedia. Quotations—often informally called 'quotes'—provide information directly; quoting a brief excerpt from an original source can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to explain them in one's own words. . . . Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit.
- Naturally, we're all for improving articles. But at least support dequoting with relevant guidelines. Using a thesaurus is kid stuff, unless it improves readability consciously. And there's no guideline that supports your rule: We should not use quotes unless absolutely necessary.
- In any case, what any of this has to do with "putting Kubrick on a pedestal," or why a WP bio can't have some of the same aspects of biographical books, is another issue, should you want to discuss them. --Light show (talk) 21:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Read all the way down that page, or click on this link. --John (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- You're obviously kidding, since none of the quotes used would remotely be plagiarism by any definition. One thing that's very clear from many of your dequotes, and the reason some of the paragraphs are now becoming choppy is that you're removing important transition words connecting one thought with a previous one. I'll add necessary ones back and assume you'll understand why when reading the context. --Light show (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- The issue with using too many quotes when what can be said can be summarized in simpler or paraphrased language is that it immediately gives the intent of favoritism for the person. We can talk about how important Kubrick's work in films was with a bit more dispassionate approaches; we want to be impartial in saying how important he was. Take for example the last current quote I see on the page, which is about director Refn talking about comparisons to Kubrick's work. The quote is "Of course if you put violence with classical music, people think it's obvious that's Clockwork Orange, because Kubrick used it very well and you always look at it as a reference. There are similarities between my Bronson and the Alex character from Clockwork Orange. There is kind of anti-authoritarian popculture iconish quality, but I stole every single thing from Kenneth Anger. Bronson is a mixture of [Anger's] Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome (1954) and Scorpio Rising (1964)." That can be stated, same reference, but w/o the quote, as "Refn commented that his character of Bronson was often compared to Alex from a Clockwork Orange due to similarities in style, but asserted that the character was really taken from Kenneth Anger's works..." There's quotes where the quotes are simply not needed. --MASEM (t) 21:58, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Not sure when or who added that one, but it's way too long and convoluted and clearly worth trimming. --Light show (talk) 22:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Read all the way down that page, or click on this link. --John (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
How Kubrick phrased his thoughts is of much more interest and value to me than the paraphrasing of someone else trying to re-word them just for the sake of avoiding using quotes. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:50, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- it does depend; there definitely are cases where Kubrick's own language is important; but we don't need full blockquotes for mundane recollections. Take, for example, this quote under Directing: "When Peter was called to the set he would usually arrive walking very slowly and staring morosely ... As work progressed, he would begin to respond to something or other in the scene, his mood would visibly brighten and we would begin to have fun. ... [At times] Peter reached ... a state of comic ecstasy.[102]:135" The better way is simply to say "Kubrick noted that Peter would start days of filming in a lethargic manner, but as days progressed he would brighten up and at times achieve "a state of comic escstasy"." Still quote but not quotefarming the article. --MASEM (t) 21:58, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Here's another good "bad example" that was just readded [1] - "Spartacus is the only film on which I did not have absolute control," he later said. absolutely does not need the quote. Kubrick stated that Spartacus was the only film he did not have absolute control over. does exactly the same job. --MASEM (t) 22:07, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but your earlier example promoting "in a lethargic manner" is your words. I would much rather see how Kubrick actually described the situation. And in several instances I get more from reading between the words, but I need the words to do that. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but still, you can even inject a partial quote from the above, instead of the full one. in that specific example, the "state of comic ecstasy" is extremely valuable as quote material for Kubrick in describing Sellers' acting, it's just getting the framing for it. The whole quote is not needed. --MASEM (t) 22:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- That example is reasonable if there was some benefit to a third-person statement vs. a first-person one. Almost the same number of words, but hearing Kubrick speak is better, IMO. A string of bone-dry declarative statements is never as good as hearing people in their own words, within reason. --Light show (talk) 22:22, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry guys but it isn't tenable to have 60 quotes in an article. It isn't what we do. You are welcome to set up your own quote collection or contribute to Wikiquote, but here we try to summarise. --John (talk) 06:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
That is rather condescending. The quotes have a purpose in context. The three quotes I restored were justified. I gave good reasons for them which you ignored. Instead of following WP:BRD you just reverted them back with your banal and in at least one case off-the-mark summaries, like calling one "surprise" when that quite missed the point. Your text is not engaging and in some cases badly written.
How can you replace
Today, many film critics and moviemakers regard it "as the most significant Hollywood breakthrough since Citizen Kane (1941), with some, such as Spielberg, calling it his generation's "big bang"
with
Today, many film critics and moviemakers regard it as the most significant Hollywood film of its generation, with some, such as Spielberg, calling it his generation's "big bang".
Why take out Citizen Kane? Did you even notice you're now repeating generation twice in the same sentence? You come rolling in here to enforce your view of how to correct WP articles, and you put in that kind of sloppiness. The quote you took out was not talking about a generation, but was using one frequently cited historically important film often used in film scholarship as a marker. But you lost that meaning.
You also restored one co-writer to the filmography I had taken out in a separate edit, even though as I said Kubrick had co-writers on nine of his films. Why name only this one here? The fact you put that back with no comment indicates you are using rollback with no discrimination.
As Light show said -
- I prefer to go by suggested guidelines for using quotations:
Quotations are a fundamental attribute of Wikipedia. Quotations—often informally called 'quotes'—provide information directly; quoting a brief excerpt from an original source can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to explain them in one's own words. . . . Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit.
You are going against WP:BRD. The three quotes I restored should have been left in absent discussion. You do not have consensus for this, as only one other editor agreed with dequoting in this thread, saying we are supposed to write more bone dry than this currently is. We can still make that type of text engaging.. Even if I agreed with that, you did not meet the second point there. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- There's no limit to quotes and I don't think anyone is saying "You can only have X quotations in this", but there are quotes being used for zero reason when they are simply iterating a fact or straight-forward opinion that can be easily restated in plaintext. There's certainly quotes or parts of quotes that should be kept, no doubt, when we have Kubrick's own thoughts or other people opining on Kubrick in non-standard but eloquent phrases that we can't restart without WP:NOR re-interpretation, just that there's a good number that can be restarted with ease. Consider the quotes a sugar topping on a dessert - in moderation it makes the article so much better, but too much and you'll get sick of it fast. --MASEM (t) 02:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- He does name a quote limit. My thing is they should be better chosen and summaries better written, if necessary. And as I said, the three quotes I restored should have been left in absent discussion. Citizen Kane should be restored as well. - Gothicfilm (talk)
Condensing
I have 4 or 5 books on Kubrick which I got through the grant and will be steadily going through each one and adding content either to this or his films. The problem is that this is already 185kb and although quite good in part is rather too long and not quite as focused as it should be. I feel that we need sister articles examining the various aspects of his work in detail and to begin condensing this main article. I think the first priority for this is to split into separate articles and begin condensing down. Nobody needs a personal life section that long for instance.I might be adding a fair bit of material which at some point can be reworked and split into different articles. It's very tough to write a fully comprehensive well written article on somebody as complex as Kubrick. This article should essentially though be a biography and a neat summary loosely outlining his major themes with sub articles covering them in detail. We'll see how it progresses anyway but I hope nobody gets offended by me doing what really needs to be done on this. I'll try to retain all material at least partly here and in sub articles. A raw effort is needed I think. so if I cock up sourcing or whatever please assist me during the transition! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- Remember - each of his films are clearly notable. Detailed discussion of his directing style specific to each film (not the broad overview, that's needed on its own) and each film's history should be left to the film's page, summarizing each with about 2 para-worth of content to place the film in context. For example, reading the Dr. Strangelove section, that's excessive on detail that is not specifically aimed at describing Kubrick, the person (for example, why do we need to know about the War Room set on Kubrick's page?). Of course, we are treating the movie timeline as his personal timeline as well, so details that reflect changes or happenings in his personal life should be brought up here, such as his moving to England for filming Lolita. The issue with excessive blockquoting is also leading to size issues here too, another reason to trim down and make sure this is focused on the biographical aspects and not so much about individual films. --MASEM (t) 13:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- And to note: in terms of what counts towards SIZE (prose only, no refs, tables, captions, etc.), this is at 125kb. It's large, as 100 kb is the recommended max, but I would avoid trying to split just it's there. I think if you fixed up the movie section to be more on the bio side as a starting point, that's going to help make it come to reasonable size.
- User:Dr. Blofeld, this sounds like an excellent plan. Moving material that is not specifically biographical to other articles should improve them, as well as improving the focus of this article. What is "the grant" that you refer to at the beginning of your message? Reify-tech (talk) 20:20, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the interest guys. The grant I got through WMUK here. To date I've done Althorp which is now at GAN from barely more than a stub. I have five books on Kubrick. I've begun going through the complete films book first. I've already added a fair bit to earlier life from it and some to his themes. Beautiful book, highly recommended for any Kubrick buff like myself. Yes, Kubrick was one of those rare directors who focused on quality rather than quantity and has few enough in which I think covering each one by section is appropriate. Every film of his for me was a masterpiece, even his first one, even if amateurish. However, I think we really need to be well researched and really concise in the coverage of each one and only stick to the most important points. As you say we don't want to really be over 100kb of prose at the end and we want to avoid unnecessary detail like in Dr Strangelove section and keep it focused. This is going to take some time but gradually I'll be adding material to this and his film articles. It might grow very big before we can cut it down again to ensure it is really comprehensive and well-written. Over time though I think we can much improve this and at least get it to GA. For me it's near enough to being the crown jewels of cinema, so let's do a good job!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- And yet another idea - even after condensing if the article is still far too large, then I would suggest: Directing style of Stanley Kubrick as the possible split article, since that itself is probably a notable topic on its own in addition to the life of Kubrick. I would try to avoid this if you can, and I think you can, but this to me would the most acceptable, non-controversial split. --MASEM (t) 20:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Oh yeah, and Themes of Stanley Kubrick etc. As I say now I've split the MASSIVE personal life section and the other and condensed down into something reasonable I do't think we need to worry too much about the size for the time being, although going through and condensing some of the info on his films and improving the flow of the directing section by removing or paraphrasing some quotes in part is recommended. I might do that tomorrow. The main focus now I think is quality of information and I think I can start working towards that from the books I have. Let's not split into Cinematic style of Stanley Kubrick etc yet anyway until it's really developed and we can then split and condense. I'm hoping to replace a lot of the existing sources we have and update it as we go along. Way too many quotes in the style section too, we need to be more selective and try to improve focus and flow. Some may be more important than others but some I think can be paraphrased or removed. Obviously we don't want to lose anything valuable though. I have a fair few quotes from my books which I'll be adding which I think are of better quality than some of the existing ones, so some might be replaced. I'm sure gradually it'll sort itself out as it is improved and not end up too much like a quote farm! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:45, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that the article is long and can be improved. However, some of the rationales for condensing it, beyond the word count, seem incorrect and somewhat worrisome. Worrisome, because the only other time an editor mentioned their having books on hand as a reason for wanting to edit an article, see Peter Sellers Talk, it devolved into a battleground: ( I've got a few other books knocking around, including a largely unread copy of the Lewis book (how much bile and hatred in one book can there be?!) so I hope we can get something fairly special out of it.) Since Kubrick and Peter Sellers worked together on a few films, it's worth comparing the two articles, IMO.
- Regarding size, Sellers' is about a third shorter, but according to those who reviewed the final article, it became ”incomprehensible”. And pointing out such problems was no easy task. But size, IMO, is not as important by far as an article's organization and readability. Taking Masem's reference to Dr. Strangelove, for example, which Sellers starred in, a comparison between the Sellers' article commentary with Kubrick's, some might understand my opinion.
- Size was also used as a rationale in Sellers for deleting his infobox, without discussion, which opened up a new front in the ongoing battle. In any case, comparing the TOC of Kubrick with Sellers, it shows a dramatic difference. Where Kubrick's article is a biography, only a portion of Sellers' is, with technique and his legacy not part of it. Where Kubrick has separate "Personal life" section, with easy-to-find details about his marriages, family, and residence, Sellers' has none, which makes finding similar information difficult.
- Another major difference is that for Kubrick's article, the sections devoted to his films focus primarily on Kubrick, including his motives, opinions, problems, philosophy, etc. about that particular film. Reading Seller's section for that film, finding such personal details is extremely difficult. As the article was being rewritten by some other editors, I pointed out what appeared to be a hodge-podge of often disconnected dry factoids which undermined readability and explained little about Sellers' thinking or his personal desires as an actor. Even the few personal opinions Sellers did give about his career, were moved to a nearly-hidden notes section without explanation.
- I think it would be best to first discuss major edits, certainly splits, before making them. However, in all honesty, after my experience on Sellers, despite it's GA/FA designation, I fear the worst. Sorry guys. --Light show (talk) 21:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's very sad don't you think? This has very little to do with Peter Sellers. And SchroCat or Cassinanto aren't going to be editing this one anyway, at least not actively. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think trying to compare Sellers to Kubrick, from the standpoint of an encyclopedic article, is apples to oranges, specifically that trying to summarize the life work of an actor from that of a director. They receive different focuses in the literature, and thus the approach to how they are built will be different. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- Kubrick's TOC structure would work for many actors, the one difference might be instead of "Directing techniques," for instance, it could be "Acting techniques," or "artistry," if that's known. Directors and actors all work on the same things, films, except from different sides of the camera. --Light show (talk) 22:34, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, first it will depend on director. For example, I doubt Michael Bay will have anything comparable to the amount of detail that Kubrick has had. But that said, directing a film is a much more extensive and broad job than just acting (this is not to trivialize the importance of actors to the result, though). There is a lot more study on how the world's best directors approach their films, compared to how the world's best actors approach their roles. --MASEM (t) 22:52, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- Kubrick's TOC structure would work for many actors, the one difference might be instead of "Directing techniques," for instance, it could be "Acting techniques," or "artistry," if that's known. Directors and actors all work on the same things, films, except from different sides of the camera. --Light show (talk) 22:34, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think trying to compare Sellers to Kubrick, from the standpoint of an encyclopedic article, is apples to oranges, specifically that trying to summarize the life work of an actor from that of a director. They receive different focuses in the literature, and thus the approach to how they are built will be different. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Given that you are likely to add many footnotes referring to the same set of reference books, I suggest that you consider using Template:RP to add page references. In its basic form, it extremely easy to add to a footnote. See also the articles on Arnold Orville Beckman and Frank Oppenheimer for examples of how it is used. Reify-tech (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I prefer sfn myself.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:15, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Progress on this will be slow over the next few weeks unless the weather suddenly turns miserable. It's very difficult editing a major article like this during this hot weather with a 28 inch monitor which gets hot as well! I prefer to work on an article like this on a cold rainy day when I can wear a nice cosy jumper and feel more comfortable!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Trivia
- By another very strange coincidence, and referring again to the Peter Sellers article, with its discussions, a problem I already see here is potentially overloading it with trivia. The first problem a recent peer review noted was the article's size along with being "overly detailed." Therefore, reading some new edits, most of these details are also trivia, ie. On 19 July 1949 he photographed movie star Montgomery Clift eating his cereal . . . . If the article is already potentially maxed out in size, such trivia is of little help and may do the article great harm.
- On Sellers' FA review, I wasn't joking when I said, It's ready to keel over with the dead weight of factoidal obesity [and] in its present state it resembles a beached whale, done in by trivia blubber. I assume that was one of reasons that readers who rated the article felt it was "incomprehensible." IMO, there is no simpler way to undermine the readability of a bio than by flooding it with useless trivia, and the fact that Sellers was a FA has not changed that opinion. --Light show (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
No it isn't. Being assigned to photograph a big movie star like Monty Clift was a major progression in his career. All of the Kubrick books discuss the "Glamor Boy in Baggy Pants" photos in fair detail and wouldn't write about it if it was trivial. Can't you just keep your opinions to yourself and forget your petty vendetta over the Sellers out of this until it is written and condensed??♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is, this article doesn't explain what's necessary about that. It reads as trivia "Oh, he took a photo of a famous person eating cereal". If there is importance to that, you need to give it context - was the photo something that helped his career due to the interesting subject? If this was just some event and you can't say more about it, then it does read as trivia.
- A part of the problem with this article remains that there is signifiant weight given to talking about each of the films with production details that should be on the film pages, and not here. Not that we dont talk about his films, but should be in very broad terms on Kubrick's role as a director in the spotlight, and not the little details about production that would be better suited for the film page. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
The idea is to write it in detail and then condense down at a later date. The very best articles are usually very comprehensive and have been cut down from something larger. The material I'm writing can be used in the films or sister articles of this and can be condensed down to the most important points once written. If you have experience as a writer you should know this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Certainly yes, no question, but we're also talking about a live version that anyone can read. Perhaps it might be better for doing the type of "mass expansion then trimming) that you are talking about in userspace, even dropping a link to that page here so others interested can help, but once cleaned up, to move back into mainspace (and there are plenty of admins that would be glad to help with the necessary history merge). It's when the changes are left "live" for a long time that can be a problem. If you were planning on an intense one-two day period of editing and trimming, that's reasonably but this appears to be process that might take several months (I'm discounting the weather problems that have limited your editing). --MASEM (t) 21:13, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
For this to be the best possible article I'll need to go through each book I have and extract information and once done it can be filed down to the most important points and some content moved into film articles or whatever. But it's going to take time and the article will likely get pretty huge during the process and some info will be added which might be better in the film article no his biography. But either way I still need to get the material onto here and find the best way to use the resources that I have. If this doesn't get too many changes, perhaps I should work on it in my sandbox. I'd like to overhaul a lot of the bloated sources and quote farms for a start.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- As noted above, you are clearly overloading article sections with trivia along with quotes. The goal is to remove trivia and needless quotes. Now that Schrocat is joining your team, the problems noted with the Sellers article is now even more relevant. Rather than flood the sections with trivia that needs to be trimmed out, how about adding your section edits to Talk:Stanley Kubrick/sandbox2, first. The idea of first adding minutia and then deciding what should be kept in, will not work, so kindly do your drafts in the sandbox. --Light show (talk) 08:04, 11 August 2014 (UTC)