Comment |
Cavalryman (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 40: | Line 40: | ||
:::{{reply to|Dwanyewest}} the AKC are notoriously unreliable when it comes to breed histories, and particularly so when it comes to the SBT, on their [https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/staffordshire-bull-terrier/ SBT breed page] they claim [[James Hinks]] was involved in the breed’s development, that is contradicted by literally every other source on the subject (but interestingly that page actually supports this merger saying {{tq|The Bull-and-Terrier, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Pit-dog, and the Brindle Bull are a few of the Stafford’s historical aliases.}}). The article you have linked here makes some other significant mistakes, the Bull Terrier and SBT did not diverge, the aforementioned James Hinks crossbred B&Ts/SBTs with [[English White Terrier]]s and [[Collie]]s to achieve the colour and head shape of that breed, whilst the SBT remained unchanged. [[User:Cavalryman|Cavalryman]] ([[User talk:Cavalryman|talk]]) 07:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC). |
:::{{reply to|Dwanyewest}} the AKC are notoriously unreliable when it comes to breed histories, and particularly so when it comes to the SBT, on their [https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/staffordshire-bull-terrier/ SBT breed page] they claim [[James Hinks]] was involved in the breed’s development, that is contradicted by literally every other source on the subject (but interestingly that page actually supports this merger saying {{tq|The Bull-and-Terrier, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Pit-dog, and the Brindle Bull are a few of the Stafford’s historical aliases.}}). The article you have linked here makes some other significant mistakes, the Bull Terrier and SBT did not diverge, the aforementioned James Hinks crossbred B&Ts/SBTs with [[English White Terrier]]s and [[Collie]]s to achieve the colour and head shape of that breed, whilst the SBT remained unchanged. [[User:Cavalryman|Cavalryman]] ([[User talk:Cavalryman|talk]]) 07:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC). |
||
* '''Oppose'''. A cursory look at [[Bull and terrier]] says B&T is part of the history of multiple different breeds. Breeds mentioned in B&T article with B&T as a progenitor: Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier, as well as Fox Terrier, Airedale Terrier, rat-working terriers, working black and tan terriers and most all other vermin-hunting terriers. The B&T article is a full blown article in its own right. There are a lot of 'overlapping' articles in Wikipedia and I don't think there is a guideline against that. Surely there is no downside to leaving B&T in an article of its own so it could be linked to from the history sections of those other breeds. Rather, if you merge the content, then other breed histories mentioning B&T will wind up with a link to Staffordshire Bull Terrier (which is ''not'' part of their history). [[User:Platonk|Platonk]] ([[User talk:Platonk|talk]]) 17:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
* '''Oppose'''. A cursory look at [[Bull and terrier]] says B&T is part of the history of multiple different breeds. Breeds mentioned in B&T article with B&T as a progenitor: Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier, as well as Fox Terrier, Airedale Terrier, rat-working terriers, working black and tan terriers and most all other vermin-hunting terriers. The B&T article is a full blown article in its own right. There are a lot of 'overlapping' articles in Wikipedia and I don't think there is a guideline against that. Surely there is no downside to leaving B&T in an article of its own so it could be linked to from the history sections of those other breeds. Rather, if you merge the content, then other breed histories mentioning B&T will wind up with a link to Staffordshire Bull Terrier (which is ''not'' part of their history). [[User:Platonk|Platonk]] ([[User talk:Platonk|talk]]) 17:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC) |
||
::Hello {{reply to|Platonk}} do you have any sources to verify what the article says? As articulated above, quality sources say they are one and the same? [[User:Cavalryman|Cavalryman]] ([[User talk:Cavalryman|talk]]) 11:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC). |
Revision as of 11:59, 19 September 2021
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Killer Breed
I'm really surprised that there are not many references in the article to the fact that this breed routinely kills people, particularly children. The internet is littered with articles about people being killed by Staffordshire Bull Terriers. It seems that there are a number of Staffordshire Bull Terrier enthusiasts on here who keep moulding this article with positive points as opposed to the truth that this breed is s killer. 146.90.15.7 (talk) 17:39, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
- Do you have any reliable sources to back up your claims? Cavalryman (talk) 22:19, 4 April 2021 (UTC).
Merger proposal: Bull and terrier
I am of the opinion that Bull and terrier should be merged into this page. Since rewriting the history section of this article two years ago, more and better sources have become available to me, and the vast majority consider the two one and the same, several stating explicitly the Bull and Terrier became the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.[1][2][3] The current breed name Staffordshire Bull Terrier was only adopted in the 1930s in order to gain recognition for the breed with the Kennel Club, but the article should very definitely retain this name. Cavalryman (talk) 10:38, 2 June 2021 (UTC).
References
- ^ Jones, Arthur F.; Hamilton, Ferelith (1971). The world encyclopedia of dogs. New York: Galahad Books. pp. 481–484. ISBN 0-88365-302-8.
the name "Bull-and-Terrier"
- ^ Morris, Desmond (2001). Dogs: the ultimate dictionary of over 1,000 dog breeds. North Pomfret, VT: Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 346–347. ISBN 1-57076-219-8.
The first recorded name of this dog was the Bull-and-terrier.
- ^ Wilcox, Bonnie; Walkowicz, Chris (1989). Atlas of dog breeds of the world. Neptune City, N.J.: TFH Publications. pp. 811–812.
This was the original "Bull-and-Terrier."
- Cavalryman, mostly I'm inclined to defer to your opinion – this is not an area I'm particularly (or really even marginally) familiar with. But given the second sentence of our Bull and terrier article ("It was a crossbreed that was the progenitor of several modern standardised breeds (Bull-type terriers), including the Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier"), are we really sure that this and no other breed descended from it? Should we not let these particular sleeping dogs lie? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- It is that last thought that has made me stop before now. I am unsure about the Dogs Argentino (it looks a little like romanticised OR) but the others definitely do descend from the B&T, but the overwhelming number of quality sources either imply or state explicitly that the Staffie is the B&T, just with a new brand; the history of the Staffie is that of the B&T until the 1930s. The B&T article has been on my to do list for some time (I think the Staffie’s history needs a little refresh also), but when I do the former we will have a bit of a CFORK. Cavalryman (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC).
- Fascinating position. Where does its nearest cousin, the English Bull Terrier, fit into this picture? William Harris (talk) 09:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- The English Bull Terrier was created as a refined version of the B&T by outcrosses with collies and English White Terriers, it was then widely shown under the name Bull Terrier and achieved Kennel Club recognition under that name. Having had their preferred breed name effectively stolen and copyrighted by an imposter, the breeders of B&Ts had to settle with the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Cavalryman (talk) 09:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC).
- This [1] also appears to be informative, with the "Bully" stated as coming directly from various crossings of bulldog with terrier - plus some more elegant breeds thrown into the mix. Therefore, there is no need for a "Bull & Terrier" dog type to be in between, which adds to your argument. William Harris (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- The English Bull Terrier was created as a refined version of the B&T by outcrosses with collies and English White Terriers, it was then widely shown under the name Bull Terrier and achieved Kennel Club recognition under that name. Having had their preferred breed name effectively stolen and copyrighted by an imposter, the breeders of B&Ts had to settle with the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Cavalryman (talk) 09:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC).
- Fascinating position. Where does its nearest cousin, the English Bull Terrier, fit into this picture? William Harris (talk) 09:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
- It is that last thought that has made me stop before now. I am unsure about the Dogs Argentino (it looks a little like romanticised OR) but the others definitely do descend from the B&T, but the overwhelming number of quality sources either imply or state explicitly that the Staffie is the B&T, just with a new brand; the history of the Staffie is that of the B&T until the 1930s. The B&T article has been on my to do list for some time (I think the Staffie’s history needs a little refresh also), but when I do the former we will have a bit of a CFORK. Cavalryman (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC).
- Support as per nom. William Harris (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: The Bull and Terrier was an important middle step in creating many bully breeds as noted in this chart. Certainly, NOT just the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It is often written up as it's own historical breed in books. There is plenty of room for this article at Wikipedia and allows room to expand the article over time. In addition, ten Wikipedia's in various languages have the Bull and terrier as a separate article. Blockhouse321 (talk) 09:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Struck comment from two time TBAN evading sockpuppet of the article’s creator. Cavalryman (talk) 21:23, 3 September 2021 (UTC).
- What I see provided here is a link to a chart taken from the internet of unknown origin, with no author nor references provided, depicting a collection of dogs referred to as "Bully". This is hardly providing a WP:RELIABLE source to support your position. Do you have anything else? William Harris (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
I oppose it the Bull and Terrier is clearly a separate breed of dog.Dwanyewest (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Dwanyewest: you say clearly these two are separate, can you provide any reliable sources to verify that statement? The Bull and Terrier page was created by a known disruptive Sockpuppeteer who has been topic banned from dog fighting breed articles because of their disruption in this area. Further, as shown above, a majority of reliable sources state they are one and the same. Cavalryman (talk) 22:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC).
- The AKC recognise the Bull and Terrier as progenitor of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier[2] Dwanyewest (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Dwanyewest: the AKC are notoriously unreliable when it comes to breed histories, and particularly so when it comes to the SBT, on their SBT breed page they claim James Hinks was involved in the breed’s development, that is contradicted by literally every other source on the subject (but interestingly that page actually supports this merger saying
The Bull-and-Terrier, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Pit-dog, and the Brindle Bull are a few of the Stafford’s historical aliases.
). The article you have linked here makes some other significant mistakes, the Bull Terrier and SBT did not diverge, the aforementioned James Hinks crossbred B&Ts/SBTs with English White Terriers and Collies to achieve the colour and head shape of that breed, whilst the SBT remained unchanged. Cavalryman (talk) 07:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC).
- @Dwanyewest: the AKC are notoriously unreliable when it comes to breed histories, and particularly so when it comes to the SBT, on their SBT breed page they claim James Hinks was involved in the breed’s development, that is contradicted by literally every other source on the subject (but interestingly that page actually supports this merger saying
- The AKC recognise the Bull and Terrier as progenitor of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier[2] Dwanyewest (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. A cursory look at Bull and terrier says B&T is part of the history of multiple different breeds. Breeds mentioned in B&T article with B&T as a progenitor: Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier, as well as Fox Terrier, Airedale Terrier, rat-working terriers, working black and tan terriers and most all other vermin-hunting terriers. The B&T article is a full blown article in its own right. There are a lot of 'overlapping' articles in Wikipedia and I don't think there is a guideline against that. Surely there is no downside to leaving B&T in an article of its own so it could be linked to from the history sections of those other breeds. Rather, if you merge the content, then other breed histories mentioning B&T will wind up with a link to Staffordshire Bull Terrier (which is not part of their history). Platonk (talk) 17:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Hello @Platonk: do you have any sources to verify what the article says? As articulated above, quality sources say they are one and the same? Cavalryman (talk) 11:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC).