→SPLC no longer on FBI page: Do not remove wording or link |
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Okay, I do not see what the issue is. The reference fails verification plain and simple. SPLC is '''no longer''' listed under "Resources" on http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/hate_crimes. It ''was'' listed in the resources section, as seen [http://web.archive.org/web/20140209112737/http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/hate_crimes here], but no longer is. Thus the statement is no longer true and should be removed. We do not need a press release from the FBI saying it was removed. Please explain why a false statement should be kept in the article. [[User:EvergreenFir|EvergreenFir]] ([[User talk:EvergreenFir|talk]]) 19:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC) |
Okay, I do not see what the issue is. The reference fails verification plain and simple. SPLC is '''no longer''' listed under "Resources" on http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/hate_crimes. It ''was'' listed in the resources section, as seen [http://web.archive.org/web/20140209112737/http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/hate_crimes here], but no longer is. Thus the statement is no longer true and should be removed. We do not need a press release from the FBI saying it was removed. Please explain why a false statement should be kept in the article. [[User:EvergreenFir|EvergreenFir]] ([[User talk:EvergreenFir|talk]]) 19:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC) |
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:Because there are MANY sources that state the FBI works with the SPLC to combate hate crimes. Also, SPLC is still listed as an outreach partner for investigating hate crimes listed as cold cases. You absolutely have to have a statement from the FBI to remove the link AND the wording. Period. Even if it was true up until today and they really are not working with the SPLC anymore, they have worked with them before so the wording would just be changed. NOT removed. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 19:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC) |
:Because there are MANY sources that state the FBI works with the SPLC to combate hate crimes. Also, SPLC is still listed as an outreach partner for investigating hate crimes listed as cold cases. You absolutely have to have a statement from the FBI to remove the link AND the wording. Period. Even if it was true up until today and they really are not working with the SPLC anymore, they have worked with them before so the wording would just be changed. NOT removed. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 19:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC) |
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::Complete nonsense. Take a brief moment to read the edit. I removed ''"The Southern Poverty Law Center is listed under the resources section of the [[Federal Bureau of Investigation]] web page on hate crimes."'' because it's no longer true. The reference given for the statement fails verification because '''IT'S NOT ON THE WEBPAGE'''. The statement is '''false'''. The other page of the edit is the removal of that same reference from the statement ''"The FBI has partnered with the SPLC "to establish rapport, share information, address concerns, and cooperate in solving problems". Due to legal limitations on the FBI, it relies on the SPLC and other civil rights organizations in collecting data on hate groups."'' The reference does not support that claim. SPLC is not mentioned on the linked webpage. The other references remain and thus the statement itself remains. |
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::Frankly I have no clue what you are talking about. I am '''not''' arguing that the FBI no longer uses SPLC. I am saying SPLC is no longer linked on its webpage. We cannot use the FBI webpage as a source for the claim that they rely on SPLC because it's not there. Again, please read the actual edit contents before jumping to some wild conclusion and demanding a press release. [[User:EvergreenFir|EvergreenFir]] ([[User talk:EvergreenFir|talk]]) 20:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC) |
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SPLC as a Hate Group?
Just wondering how widespread the notion that the SPLC is itself a hate group? They certainly seem to have a tendency to deem groups that conflict with their own ideological viewpoint as hate groups. In some cases this is definitely not universally accepted! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.35.25.165 (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- The viewpoint that "the SPLC is a hate group" can really only be considered widespread among groups like Stormfront, WAR, Christian Identity, etc. - that is, openly racialist groups that the SPLC targets for lawsuits. As an anglo parent in a mixed-race family, I actively seek out information from activist groups that I consider a threat to my children, and I do encounter this characterization of the SPLC in racist hate literature. --Charlie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.153.180.229 (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- Look for reliable, third-party sources supporting your opinion. That will answer your question. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 17:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Our article doesn't say or imply that the SPLC's listing of hate groups is "universally accepted." Criticisms of it are found in the "Controversy" subsection and (at least indirectly) the "Academic assessment" subsection of the article. As for the SPLC itself being considered a hate group, you would have to find that opinion expressed in a couple of reliable sources before expecting it to find a place in our article. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Controversy
Why is the sub-section Controversy under "tracking of hate groups and extremists". It should have its own section and the section needs referenced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scatach (talk • contribs) 08:27, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:Criticism - Integrated throughout the article. That Controversy sub-section is specific to SPLC's hate group listings. Other criticisms and controversies are included in other sections, as appropriate. El duderino (abides) 08:11, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Study: Southern Poverty Law Center Ignores Liberal Hate
Has this academic study on SPLC's alleged liberal bias already been integrated into the article? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, it has not. Be bold. If you aren't feeling bold, suggest a proposed addition here at talk. Capitalismojo (talk) 13:32, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Not a good idea to be bold right now as it would be a good idea to discuss it first - if we are going to add it, it has got to be in a way that meets NPOV, we can't just add what it says. I had an edit conflict with your post, which I'm glad happened. The link shows that it's published by the National Association of Scholars, a conservative advocacy group.
- Also take a look at [1] from Media Matters for America.
- It's being promoted by anti-gay Austin Ruse, president of the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute which the SPLC has called an anti-LGBT hate group .
- Mediamatters charges the claim that it's a study, and says it really concentrates on attacking the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. Yancey's main interest seems to be anti-Christian activity, and as this group seems to have been very successful, it's an obvious target. Yancey has "denounced what he called the often "downright hateful" views of cultural progressives, asserting that many liberals' views are "born out of fear and irrationality." Dougweller (talk) 13:40, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- That's anti-gay, anti-contraception, anti-UN, anti-international law Austin Ruse. — goethean 14:26, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Also, Academic Questions, the journal this is in, is the journal of the National Association of Scholars, which sounds like a real educational organization but is actually a conservative pressure group which has as its goal opposition to multiculturalism. I'm sure no one in that journal/organization would ever say anything bad about anti-racist groups. /sarcasm –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- On the other hand, the author, George Yancey, is a serious and respectable scholar. We often let the reputation of the author override the reputation of the publisher as in, e.g., the extreme case of WP:SPS. Does anyone actually have a copy of the article?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Link to Yancey article here: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12129-014-9411-x#page-1 Defensor1956 (talk) 15:43, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- That's paywalled, but it turns out Breitbart put it on docstore here. Is that even legal? Who cares, I guess.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- He's a serious scholar, but he is also quite clearly an opponent of anything that smacks of atheism or anti-Christianity (specifically conservative Christianity from reading his essay). This doesn't seem to be a serious study - which is presumably why it isn't in an academic journal. I've downloaded that, you have to go through a lot of hoops. It's an essay and Yancey doesn't call it a study. Dougweller (talk) 16:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Read it over quickly (to summarize for you all) and his points seem to be these: 1. FRC isn't really a hate group because maybe gays are child molesters, Regnerus and other anti-gay activists say that gay parenting is bad, and NAMBLA exists; 2. SPLC's failure to identify the Military Religious Freedom Foundation as a hate group discredits all its work and disagreeing with the tactics of fundamentalist Christian proselytizers, in language that is hyperbolic but specifically identifies them as fundamentalists, is the same thing as hating all Christians; 3. Christians are a persecuted minority in the US. Seems like it's a pet cause, nothing else. I don't think this justifies an IAR (the R being WP:RS) here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'll read it. I wasn't arguing for its inclusion, but just against its automatic dismissal based on the crap journal it was published in given that Yancey is an actual serious sociologist given where else he's published.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Not even sure why this is a debate. The SLPC self acknowledges that they don't cover liberal hate groups. "“We’re not really set up to cover the extreme Left.” " Though anyone that knows anything about them would see this as quite obvious. Arzel (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- You make a good point. On the other hand, Yancey would be far from the first academic to publish an article proving something that everyone already knew anyway.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:20, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- "The SLPC self acknowledges that they don't cover liberal hate groups" - Uhhh, that is some kind of logic there. They "acknowledge" no such thing. Dave Dial (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- It seems they they do acknowledge that here:
- He felt the need to keep explaining, so I let him. We only ever cover left-wing groups when they have a right-wing component, he told me. For example, “when anarchist groups are infiltrated by those on the right; Neo-Nazis, that sort of thing.”
- It seems they they do acknowledge that here:
- Not even sure why this is a debate. The SLPC self acknowledges that they don't cover liberal hate groups. "“We’re not really set up to cover the extreme Left.” " Though anyone that knows anything about them would see this as quite obvious. Arzel (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'll read it. I wasn't arguing for its inclusion, but just against its automatic dismissal based on the crap journal it was published in given that Yancey is an actual serious sociologist given where else he's published.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- I asked whether this was a little like the way the French do masculine and feminine plurals; that if there are a thousand women and one man, it becomes masculine. In other words, that the SPLC covers a group if there is even a minute “right-wing” component. “Yes, I suppose so,” he said.
- — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- A blog or op-ed piece in the National Review reporting an interview with an anonymous person at the SPLC? Nope, that isn't the SPLC acknowledging anything. Dougweller (talk) 19:08, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)For Pete's sake. No, "they" do not. A quote from an anon source in a opinion blog is not some kind of evidence that the SPLC doesn't cover "liberal hate groups"(which is defined by what anyway?, and how is the extreme left being defined as "liberal"?). Far be it from me to state that someone has a bias, but if I saw some anon source being quoted from an organization that I didn't already have a bias against, I would not take that as 100% proof of that organizations policies. Far from it. Dave Dial (talk) 19:16, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
The NR is not a reliable source and this appears to be a misrepresentation. The SPLC monitors hate groups, regardless of political orientation. Hate involves racism, anti-semitism, islamophobia, anti-semtism, homophobia, etc., attitudes not typical of left-wing groups. Furthermore, there are far fewer left-wing groups in the U.S. than right-wing groups, and violence by left-wing groups today is minimal.
Yancey's opinion might be mentioned provided we use reliable secondary sources such as MediaMatters. But at this point it appears to be just an isolated comment, more relevant to his article than to this one.
TFD (talk) 19:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ha that is laughable. MMfA is reliable and NR is not?!? Seriously, let us take our heads out of the sand here. You can only piss on someone for so long and still have them believe it is raining. Arzel (talk) 19:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- After reading Yancey's article, I'd have to say it's not relevant. It's hyperspecific, and compares the SPLC's listing of FRC as a hate group with their nonlisting of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. It draws general conclusions from this, but Yancey doesn't claim it's social science. Its an opinion piece, seemingly consciously so. So I guess, per Dougweller, I don't see any reason to discuss this in here.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 19:45, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- I must agree. It is more than possible that their are left wing groups that could designated as hate groups. But how can the Military Religious Freedom Foundation be a hate group. It fights for everyone (that's right everyone) to have religious freedom in the military. And none of its policies are attacking one group in particular and not all religious groups. If you can actually find a left wing group that is attacking very specific groups then feel free to call the SPLC and talk to them about it. Just make sure they are actually anti-_______ and you are not just trying to stir up the pot.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- You know a great example of a true organization the SPLC would list as an extreme left hate group could be one that wants to make employment discrimination against conservatives legal or maybe those that do an active witch hunt and hunt down conservatives to kill them. These would be great organizations to talk to the SPLC about.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:21, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Removed from lead
I removed from the lead:
The SPLC's hate group list has been the source of some controversy.[1] [2]
It's not worded well, weaselly? Looking at this page it's likely this has come up before so maybe there is already agreement on what might work there? Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:31, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is a summary of the body. You don't neeed to have special concensus to follow basic wp guidelines and procedures. If you don't like the way is worded then consider re-wording it, however it is a good sized topic in the body, so it should be summarized in the lead. Arzel (talk) 13:36, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Also, this is in the lead and no one has a problem with it "Its fundraising appeals and accumulation of reserves have been the subject of some criticism." Defensor1956 (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Second Arzel's statement. It summarizes the body of the article. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- The sources show that the hate group list has been the source of some controversy among groups listed as hate groups and their supporters. The current wording implies that there is controversy of the listings in the mainstream, which there is not. TFD (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Mainstream example. Dana Milbank, syndicated columnist at the Washington Post.Defensor1956 (talk) 18:23, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
"Human Rights Campaign isn’t responsible for the shooting. Neither should the organization that deemed the FRC a 'hate group,' the Southern Poverty Law Center, be blamed for a madman’s act. But both are reckless in labeling as a “hate group” a policy shop that advocates for a full range of conservative Christian positions, on issues from stem cells to euthanasia...I disagree with the Family Research Council’s views on gays and lesbians. But it’s absurd to put the group, as the law center does, in the same category as Aryan Nations, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Stormfront and the Westboro Baptist Church." -Dana Milbank, "Hateful speech on hate groups," The Washington Post, August 16, 2012.
- One comment from Dana Milbank ≠ a controversy. — goethean 18:27, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Try the NYT [2] In a statement on the law center’s Web site, Mark Potok, a senior fellow there, called Mr. Perkins’s statement “outrageous.” “Perkins and his allies, seeing an opportunity to score points, are using the attack on their offices to pose a false equivalency” between the law center’s criticisms of the Family Research Council and the council’s criticisms of gay men and lesbians, he wrote. looks like the NYT considered it a "controversy" with the SPLC defending its position.
- [3] has The liberal advocacy group People for the American Way has called on the presidential candidates, and especially Mr. Romney because he will share a stage, to publicly disassociate themselves from Mr. Fischer and what it called, in a statement on Wednesday, his “unmitigated bigotry.” The Southern Poverty Law Center has made similar appeals to the candidates. The Family Research Council and the American Family Association have both been labeled “antigay hate groups” by the law center, a private advocacy organization, for spreading misinformation about homosexuality. also appears, by adding the rationale given by the SPLC to acknowledge that labelling is controversial"
- [4] has an editorial piece by a student saying A $250 donation to the Family Research Council – an extremist group that vehemently opposes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and asserts that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia – earns the credit card company about $7.50. seems on its face to use the NYT to label the FRC an "extremist group" which might also be of interest.
- In short, the labeling by the SPLC is reasonably considered by people on all sides to be "controversial" and clearly that controversy is spoken of by both sides of the controversy. It is not our job to decide which side of any controversy is correct, but that does not mean we can not call it a "controversy" cited to reliable sources. Collect (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- A columnist's opinions are only significant if other writers mention them. Please provide a source that mentions Potock's views. Otherwise we would have to include the views of the Southern Avenger in articles about every single subject he decided to mention. BTW the SPLC does not group hate groups and the KKK. The KKK is a white nationalist violent group, while hate groups need merely engage in hate speech. While hate speech is legal in the U.S., it is illegal in most Western countries. Violence against people based on ethnicity is illegal under U.S. federal law. TFD (talk) 06:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- What's the debate here? A substantially referenced subsection of the article is devoted to the controversy surrounding the SPLC's hate group list. It includes both sources that directly criticize the list and sources that report on the criticism and response by the SPLC. Of course this is worth a brief mention in a lead that is supposed to provide an overview of the article. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, Badmintonhist is correct. It is worth a mention. Capitalismojo (talk) 00:40, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- What's the debate here? A substantially referenced subsection of the article is devoted to the controversy surrounding the SPLC's hate group list. It includes both sources that directly criticize the list and sources that report on the criticism and response by the SPLC. Of course this is worth a brief mention in a lead that is supposed to provide an overview of the article. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
SPLC no longer on FBI page
Okay, I do not see what the issue is. The reference fails verification plain and simple. SPLC is no longer listed under "Resources" on http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/hate_crimes. It was listed in the resources section, as seen here, but no longer is. Thus the statement is no longer true and should be removed. We do not need a press release from the FBI saying it was removed. Please explain why a false statement should be kept in the article. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Because there are MANY sources that state the FBI works with the SPLC to combate hate crimes. Also, SPLC is still listed as an outreach partner for investigating hate crimes listed as cold cases. You absolutely have to have a statement from the FBI to remove the link AND the wording. Period. Even if it was true up until today and they really are not working with the SPLC anymore, they have worked with them before so the wording would just be changed. NOT removed. Dave Dial (talk) 19:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Complete nonsense. Take a brief moment to read the edit. I removed "The Southern Poverty Law Center is listed under the resources section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation web page on hate crimes." because it's no longer true. The reference given for the statement fails verification because IT'S NOT ON THE WEBPAGE. The statement is false. The other page of the edit is the removal of that same reference from the statement "The FBI has partnered with the SPLC "to establish rapport, share information, address concerns, and cooperate in solving problems". Due to legal limitations on the FBI, it relies on the SPLC and other civil rights organizations in collecting data on hate groups." The reference does not support that claim. SPLC is not mentioned on the linked webpage. The other references remain and thus the statement itself remains.
- Frankly I have no clue what you are talking about. I am not arguing that the FBI no longer uses SPLC. I am saying SPLC is no longer linked on its webpage. We cannot use the FBI webpage as a source for the claim that they rely on SPLC because it's not there. Again, please read the actual edit contents before jumping to some wild conclusion and demanding a press release. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Jonsson, Patrik (February 23, 2011). "Annual report cites rise in hate groups, but some ask: What is hate?". Christian Science Monitor.
- ^ "Dana Milbank, Washington Post Writer, Slams LGBT Activists, SPLC For FRC's 'Hate Group' Label". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2014-03-13.