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:{{ping|Soupforone}}: What nonsense!! Can you edit-diff your allegation, "you told me elsewhere" about Jews and non-Jewish page infoboxes? I think you have me confused with some another editor? Also, neither you nor I own any wikipedia page. I see you have had [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=738553896 issues at ANI], including with @AcidSnow you mention above. You need consensus from others, as much as I do. Quit this BRD lecturing, and let us collaborate to improve this article. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 21:12, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
:{{ping|Soupforone}}: What nonsense!! Can you edit-diff your allegation, "you told me elsewhere" about Jews and non-Jewish page infoboxes? I think you have me confused with some another editor? Also, neither you nor I own any wikipedia page. I see you have had [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=738553896 issues at ANI], including with @AcidSnow you mention above. You need consensus from others, as much as I do. Quit this BRD lecturing, and let us collaborate to improve this article. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 21:12, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
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[[User:AcidSnow]] is actually not addressing me there, but rather the posting user (who has since been indefinitely blocked btw). Anyway, what you indicated was that Judaism was o/r [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shilha_people&type=revision&diff=747478616&oldid=747478490]. However, Minahan does actually indicate that some Shilha Berbers are Jewish adherents [http://www.google.com/books?id=pGClDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA379], so I assumed that you meant instead Jewish ethnicity. [[User:Soupforone|Soupforone]] ([[User talk:Soupforone|talk]]) 22:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
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Also, while the consensus process is indeed bidirectional, please note that the [[WP:BURDEN]] to obtain consensus is actually on the editor who wants to make changes. That's why I asked you to present any potential wordings first here on the talk page for discussion and consensus. [[User:Soupforone|Soupforone]] ([[User talk:Soupforone|talk]]) 22:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
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==Kinship== |
==Kinship== |
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@Soupforone: why remove kinship sub-section and the scholarly sources? Your edit summary alleges [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Somalis&diff=749526208&oldid=749514700 it is redundant], but how is it redundant? The old article never mentioned it. Kinship is a notable feature of Somali people, kinship is discussed in encyclopedic articles on Somalis published by Oxford University Press etc, there are numerous WP:RS on it. Lewis wrote a whole book on Somali kinship. Once again I am puzzled in another wiki article by your behavior of deleting sourced content. Please do not delete it. I think we should expand the kinship subsection. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 21:29, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
@Soupforone: why remove kinship sub-section and the scholarly sources? Your edit summary alleges [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Somalis&diff=749526208&oldid=749514700 it is redundant], but how is it redundant? The old article never mentioned it. Kinship is a notable feature of Somali people, kinship is discussed in encyclopedic articles on Somalis published by Oxford University Press etc, there are numerous WP:RS on it. Lewis wrote a whole book on Somali kinship. Once again I am puzzled in another wiki article by your behavior of deleting sourced content. Please do not delete it. I think we should expand the kinship subsection. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 21:29, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
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:I agree that kinship is important. However, this particular issue has been a bone of contention, particular the notion of which clans may have Arabian influence. AcidSnow and Awale-Abdi think it is uniform across clans, whereas your edit suggested it was concentrated among the coastal groups. Discussion and consensus is therefore necessary. Also, the passage indicated that the main kinship unit is the clan, which is already discussed under the clan area. It also notes that diyya is paid out, which is contextualized under the law area. [[User:Soupforone|Soupforone]] ([[User talk:Soupforone|talk]]) 22:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:05, 14 November 2016
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September 2014
Can you please stop Wadaad. AcidSnow (talk) 20:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Can you just accept science? AcidSnow http://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443 Wadaad (talk) 20:51, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Although the Rendille have managed to retain some of their original Y-DNA lineages, their autosomal DNA is largely not the same as Somalis. This is because many Rendille intermarried with the neighboring Nilotic Samburu. Tishkoff et al. make this clear in their older paper. Middayexpress (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- @ Middayexpress There are groups featured on the 'related' list that have received admixture exogenous to ethnic Somalis as well (Benadiri, Habeshas etc.). So, I don't see the big deal of listing the Rendille who are undeniably related to Somalis, even more so than Amharas (just compare the V12+T1 frequency of Rendilles and Amharas). As for the Samburu issue, it's mainly restricted to the Ariaal sub-clan of Rendilles. Other clans of Rendilles have not mixed much with the Samburu. Moreover, the Samburu are not even real Nilotes themselves. They are a Nilo-Hamitic ethnic group, so whatever Nilotic admixture they have given the Rendille it is already diluted from the get go. Lastly, listing the Rendille is of interest to those who are interested in the ancient history of Somalis.Wadaad (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Had this been the 1500s-1600s, I would agree with you. But the parameter is meant for present relations, and the Rendille of yesteryear aren't exactly the Rendille of today. The Ariaal seem have grown in size through intermarriage with the Samburu Nilotes. There's also a theory that the Rendille aren't really an ethnic group, but are instead a confederation of peoples originally united by a few influential, Somaloid-speaking migrants. Middayexpress (talk) 22:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- The most recent common ancestors of Somalis and the Rendille is significantly more recent than the vague more distant relation between Somalis and highland Ethiosemitic groups. I am not denying that Somalis are related to Ethiosemites, but it is plainly obvious from haplogroups and linguistics that the relation is more distant. I suggest you guys to be tolerant and just leave the Rendille on here as even the Benadiri and Tigre are tolerated.Wadaad (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Why on earth would the Benadiri be removed if they descended from ethnic Somalis and mix with other Somalis hence making them the closet group? As for the Semites in the Horn of Africa, they all descend from former Cushitic speaker; which you appear not to have know. AcidSnow (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am well aware of that fact. Don't take me for a novice when it comes to East African history. Ethiosemites descent from Agew speakers (Central Cushitic) not from Lowland East Cushitic peoples which Somalis and Rendilles belong to. The relationship between Rendilles and Somalis is significantly more recent than that between Somalis and Agews/Ethiosemites. Anyhow this discussion regarding Ethiosemites is pointless as I already accept that Somalis are related to them.Wadaad (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- More like the "Horn of Africa". I never said you were a novice. I pointed out in your replies you were using linguistics for genetic relations even though it means almost nothing. Anyways, it does not matter if one accepts a fact since it's a fact. Hence ones opinion meaning nothing. AcidSnow (talk) 23:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Rendille have a similar frequency of mtDNA L to M/N (I is a derivative of N) as Somalis (about 55-65% in both groups). See Somali mtDNA (SOURCE) and Rendille mtDNA. Notice the elevated levels of N1a, which only the Somali and Rendille share in the Horn of Africa. Among other Cushitic groups, N1a is a lot lower. As for Somalis being too different from Rendilles because of 'Nilo-Saharan' admixture, this is false as Nilo-Saharan admixture is very common in almost all Horn African ethnic groups see Hodgson et al. 2014.Wadaad (talk) 23:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- That's inaccurate. While the Rendille have managed to retain some of their original uniparental markers, their autosomal DNA is another matter. Due to considerable intermarriage with the adjacent Samburu Nilotes, the Rendille's autosomal DNA is today very different from that of Somalis and other northern Cushitic and Ethiosemitic Horn groups. See Hodgson et al. (2014) [1] and especially their Supplementary Text S1 [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:54, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- The 'light blue' cluster in Hodgson et al. (2014) is a Nilo-Saharan cluster. It is present in virtually all Horn African groups. The Afro-Asiatic migrants from the North apparantly mixed a lot with Nilo-Saharans, creating modern-day Horn Africans. So, Nilo-Saharan admixture is baked into all Horn African groups.Wadaad (talk) 17:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Not particularly. The Nilo-Saharan component in the Horn is a secondary admixture element found at low frequencies in all of the region's Afro-Asiatic populations. While this is the principal Sub-Saharan admixture element in Somalis (not exceeding on average ~20% per Hodgson et al.), the main SSA admixture element in the Ethiosemitic speakers is the Ari component, which is found at similar proportions. In all of the region's northern Afro-Asiatic speaking populations, especially Somalis, it's their own Ethio-Somali component that instead constitutes the majority of their ancestry. This foundational ancestry has West Eurasian affinities and is associated with the Afro-Asiatic family's origin. I refer you again to Hodgson et al. (2014) [3] and especially their Supplementary Text S1 [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- The point was that Nilo-Saharan admixture is common throughout the Horn. I am not saying it is their major component or whatnot. It has been present in Cushites for a long time. So, only a minor 5% to 10% or thereabouts that the Rendille probably have more than the Somali is not a major factor in genetic differentiation. Look at the Maasai in Hodgson et al. (2014), they have loads of the Ethio-Somali component. Remember the Maasai are significantly Bantu mixed compared to the Samburu. The Samburu would have a lot less Bantu admixture and would score more Ethio-Somali. From this you can see that the Rendille won't logically be very different from Somalis autosomally. Of course I have to wait until a study compares them one to one, but it is blatantly obvious already what the results will be.Wadaad (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. The Maasai do not have much Ethio-Somali admixture. Per Hodgson et al., that component is largely exclusive to the Horn's Afro-Asiatic populations. The Maasai are instead predominantly Nilo-Saharan like the Samburu Nilotes. Also, the Rendille have more than just a bit of Nilo-Saharan admixture; especially their Ariaal subgroup. They are basically a disappearing population. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Middayexpress, The Maasai have the highest amount of the Ethio-Somali component outside the Horn region in Hodgson's study. I would not say that isn't 'much'. PS. I stand by that the ethnic Rendille are not very different from Somalis autosomally. Pretty soon it will be confirmed once Somalis and Rendille are sampled in the same study.Wadaad (talk) 18:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, you can believe whatever you want. The fact remains that the Masaai, like the Ari, do not have much Ethio-Somali admixture; they are instead predominantly Nilo-Saharan like the Samburu Nilotes. Per Hodgson, the Ethio-Somali component has West Eurasian affinities and is largely restricted to the Horn's Afro-Asiatic populations. The Rendille probably have the component due to their Cushitic origins. However, given their intermarriage with the Samburu Nilotes, it is definitely present among them at lower frequencies than among the northern Cushitic and Ethiosemitic populations in the Horn. Middayexpress (talk) 19:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Somalis have about 60% of the Ethio-Somali cluster, while the Maasai have about 21% that is a substantial amount. In total this would make them over a third Somali-like in origin. The Rendille would score a lot more than the Maasai and would probably have more of the Ethio-Somali cluster than the Amhara.Wadaad (talk) 20:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, Somalis have an estimated 57% of the Ethio-Somali cluster (Hodgson et al.'s Table 2). The rest of their West Eurasian ancestry is from other components, mainly the Arabian one. For their part, the Maasai do not have much Ethio-Somali admixture (btw, even assuming that ~20% admixture figure were correct, it is a not a third). They instead largely have their own Nilo-Saharan component, consistent with their language family. Given the Rendille's intermarriage with the Samburu Nilotes, they almost certainly have less of the Ethio-Somali component and more of the Nilo-Saharan one. Whatever the Ethio-Somali component's frequencies among them, though, their overall West Eurasian ancestry will be less than Somalis, Amhara and other northern Afro-Asiatic groups in the Horn (who do not have any comparable relationship with a Nilotic population). I refer you again to Hodgson et. al (2014) [5] and its Supplementary Text S1 [6]. Middayexpress (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- With a 'a third Somali-like' I meant that it would require about a third Somali-like ancestry for pure Nilotes to have 21% Ethio-Somali. Since Somalis do not only have the Ethio-Somali cluster. The Dinka or South Sudanese sampled by Hodgson et al. 2014 have no Ethio-Somali ancestry. Neither do the Gumuz of Western Ethiopia.Wadaad (talk) 20:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Understood; but whatever was meant, the Maasai don't have a third Somali-like ancestry. They don't have the same paternal markers as ethnic Somalis. This in turn means that whatever Afro-Asiatic males introduced those low frequencies of Ethio-Somali admixture to the Maasai, they were not Somali. Those men instead probably belonged to an old South Cushitic population since the Maasai individuals who today carry haplogroup E1b1b have its M293 subclade. This subclade is associated with the original South Cushitic speakers, the southward spread of pastoralism, and the C-14010 lactase persistence allele [7]]. Somalis generally don't carry that LP variant. The most common lactase persistence alleles found amongst both Somalis and Bejas are instead C-13907 and G-13915, which are believed to have originated in Northeast Africa and the Middle East, respectively. On the other hand, the C-14010 allele is generally the only LP variant that the Maasai and other Nilotes in the Great Lakes have. The Dinka and other less mixed Nilotes in the Nile Valley for the most part do not carry any lactase persistent allele. For their part, the Rendille mainly carry the C-14010 variant like the Iraqw, a remnant South Cushitic speaking group in the Great Lakes [8]. Middayexpress (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- With a 'a third Somali-like' I meant that it would require about a third Somali-like ancestry for pure Nilotes to have 21% Ethio-Somali. Since Somalis do not only have the Ethio-Somali cluster. The Dinka or South Sudanese sampled by Hodgson et al. 2014 have no Ethio-Somali ancestry. Neither do the Gumuz of Western Ethiopia.Wadaad (talk) 20:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, Somalis have an estimated 57% of the Ethio-Somali cluster (Hodgson et al.'s Table 2). The rest of their West Eurasian ancestry is from other components, mainly the Arabian one. For their part, the Maasai do not have much Ethio-Somali admixture (btw, even assuming that ~20% admixture figure were correct, it is a not a third). They instead largely have their own Nilo-Saharan component, consistent with their language family. Given the Rendille's intermarriage with the Samburu Nilotes, they almost certainly have less of the Ethio-Somali component and more of the Nilo-Saharan one. Whatever the Ethio-Somali component's frequencies among them, though, their overall West Eurasian ancestry will be less than Somalis, Amhara and other northern Afro-Asiatic groups in the Horn (who do not have any comparable relationship with a Nilotic population). I refer you again to Hodgson et. al (2014) [5] and its Supplementary Text S1 [6]. Middayexpress (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Somalis have about 60% of the Ethio-Somali cluster, while the Maasai have about 21% that is a substantial amount. In total this would make them over a third Somali-like in origin. The Rendille would score a lot more than the Maasai and would probably have more of the Ethio-Somali cluster than the Amhara.Wadaad (talk) 20:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Well, you can believe whatever you want. The fact remains that the Masaai, like the Ari, do not have much Ethio-Somali admixture; they are instead predominantly Nilo-Saharan like the Samburu Nilotes. Per Hodgson, the Ethio-Somali component has West Eurasian affinities and is largely restricted to the Horn's Afro-Asiatic populations. The Rendille probably have the component due to their Cushitic origins. However, given their intermarriage with the Samburu Nilotes, it is definitely present among them at lower frequencies than among the northern Cushitic and Ethiosemitic populations in the Horn. Middayexpress (talk) 19:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Middayexpress, The Maasai have the highest amount of the Ethio-Somali component outside the Horn region in Hodgson's study. I would not say that isn't 'much'. PS. I stand by that the ethnic Rendille are not very different from Somalis autosomally. Pretty soon it will be confirmed once Somalis and Rendille are sampled in the same study.Wadaad (talk) 18:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. The Maasai do not have much Ethio-Somali admixture. Per Hodgson et al., that component is largely exclusive to the Horn's Afro-Asiatic populations. The Maasai are instead predominantly Nilo-Saharan like the Samburu Nilotes. Also, the Rendille have more than just a bit of Nilo-Saharan admixture; especially their Ariaal subgroup. They are basically a disappearing population. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- The point was that Nilo-Saharan admixture is common throughout the Horn. I am not saying it is their major component or whatnot. It has been present in Cushites for a long time. So, only a minor 5% to 10% or thereabouts that the Rendille probably have more than the Somali is not a major factor in genetic differentiation. Look at the Maasai in Hodgson et al. (2014), they have loads of the Ethio-Somali component. Remember the Maasai are significantly Bantu mixed compared to the Samburu. The Samburu would have a lot less Bantu admixture and would score more Ethio-Somali. From this you can see that the Rendille won't logically be very different from Somalis autosomally. Of course I have to wait until a study compares them one to one, but it is blatantly obvious already what the results will be.Wadaad (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Not particularly. The Nilo-Saharan component in the Horn is a secondary admixture element found at low frequencies in all of the region's Afro-Asiatic populations. While this is the principal Sub-Saharan admixture element in Somalis (not exceeding on average ~20% per Hodgson et al.), the main SSA admixture element in the Ethiosemitic speakers is the Ari component, which is found at similar proportions. In all of the region's northern Afro-Asiatic speaking populations, especially Somalis, it's their own Ethio-Somali component that instead constitutes the majority of their ancestry. This foundational ancestry has West Eurasian affinities and is associated with the Afro-Asiatic family's origin. I refer you again to Hodgson et al. (2014) [3] and especially their Supplementary Text S1 [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- The 'light blue' cluster in Hodgson et al. (2014) is a Nilo-Saharan cluster. It is present in virtually all Horn African groups. The Afro-Asiatic migrants from the North apparantly mixed a lot with Nilo-Saharans, creating modern-day Horn Africans. So, Nilo-Saharan admixture is baked into all Horn African groups.Wadaad (talk) 17:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- That's inaccurate. While the Rendille have managed to retain some of their original uniparental markers, their autosomal DNA is another matter. Due to considerable intermarriage with the adjacent Samburu Nilotes, the Rendille's autosomal DNA is today very different from that of Somalis and other northern Cushitic and Ethiosemitic Horn groups. See Hodgson et al. (2014) [1] and especially their Supplementary Text S1 [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:54, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Rendille have a similar frequency of mtDNA L to M/N (I is a derivative of N) as Somalis (about 55-65% in both groups). See Somali mtDNA (SOURCE) and Rendille mtDNA. Notice the elevated levels of N1a, which only the Somali and Rendille share in the Horn of Africa. Among other Cushitic groups, N1a is a lot lower. As for Somalis being too different from Rendilles because of 'Nilo-Saharan' admixture, this is false as Nilo-Saharan admixture is very common in almost all Horn African ethnic groups see Hodgson et al. 2014.Wadaad (talk) 23:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- More like the "Horn of Africa". I never said you were a novice. I pointed out in your replies you were using linguistics for genetic relations even though it means almost nothing. Anyways, it does not matter if one accepts a fact since it's a fact. Hence ones opinion meaning nothing. AcidSnow (talk) 23:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am well aware of that fact. Don't take me for a novice when it comes to East African history. Ethiosemites descent from Agew speakers (Central Cushitic) not from Lowland East Cushitic peoples which Somalis and Rendilles belong to. The relationship between Rendilles and Somalis is significantly more recent than that between Somalis and Agews/Ethiosemites. Anyhow this discussion regarding Ethiosemites is pointless as I already accept that Somalis are related to them.Wadaad (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Why on earth would the Benadiri be removed if they descended from ethnic Somalis and mix with other Somalis hence making them the closet group? As for the Semites in the Horn of Africa, they all descend from former Cushitic speaker; which you appear not to have know. AcidSnow (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- The most recent common ancestors of Somalis and the Rendille is significantly more recent than the vague more distant relation between Somalis and highland Ethiosemitic groups. I am not denying that Somalis are related to Ethiosemites, but it is plainly obvious from haplogroups and linguistics that the relation is more distant. I suggest you guys to be tolerant and just leave the Rendille on here as even the Benadiri and Tigre are tolerated.Wadaad (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Had this been the 1500s-1600s, I would agree with you. But the parameter is meant for present relations, and the Rendille of yesteryear aren't exactly the Rendille of today. The Ariaal seem have grown in size through intermarriage with the Samburu Nilotes. There's also a theory that the Rendille aren't really an ethnic group, but are instead a confederation of peoples originally united by a few influential, Somaloid-speaking migrants. Middayexpress (talk) 22:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- @ Middayexpress There are groups featured on the 'related' list that have received admixture exogenous to ethnic Somalis as well (Benadiri, Habeshas etc.). So, I don't see the big deal of listing the Rendille who are undeniably related to Somalis, even more so than Amharas (just compare the V12+T1 frequency of Rendilles and Amharas). As for the Samburu issue, it's mainly restricted to the Ariaal sub-clan of Rendilles. Other clans of Rendilles have not mixed much with the Samburu. Moreover, the Samburu are not even real Nilotes themselves. They are a Nilo-Hamitic ethnic group, so whatever Nilotic admixture they have given the Rendille it is already diluted from the get go. Lastly, listing the Rendille is of interest to those who are interested in the ancient history of Somalis.Wadaad (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Although the Rendille have managed to retain some of their original Y-DNA lineages, their autosomal DNA is largely not the same as Somalis. This is because many Rendille intermarried with the neighboring Nilotic Samburu. Tishkoff et al. make this clear in their older paper. Middayexpress (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Language
I see from CIA Arabic is an official language. It was reverted with a comment about "Native" Language. The talk box is not about Native Languages, it is for official or notable languages. (so let us be clear about that). In this article there is a clear reference to Arabic being spoken, the info box should reflect the languages spoken with notes if it is a tiny minority. Reverting without discussion is not how we make articles better.--Inayity (talk) 17:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Arabic is indeed an official language in both Somalia and Djibouti, where ethnic Somalis constitute a large percentage of the population. Middayexpress (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- So why is User:Wadaad and User:Bladesmulti deleting it?--Inayity (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know, but I don't think it's a big deal. Somali, which like Arabic is an Afro-Asiatic language, is after all the mother tongue of ethnic Somalis. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Inayity, I'd say more Somalis are fluent in English than Arabic, especially in Somaliland and Puntland. Should we add English as well? You get the point. Stick to native languages only on ethnicity pages.Wadaad (talk) 18:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Look at road signs, commercials signs etc in Hargeisa for instance. There are more English signs than Arabic ones. Clearly wouldn't be the case if Arabic was more dominant. Wadaad (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Arabic is on most government literature and buildings, is a language taught in many elementary schools, is a liturgical language, and is an additional broadcasting language. It is also an official language in both Somalia and Djibouti. As such, it can't be compared to English, which is only a working language in varying degrees. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Wadaad we are on Wikipedia and only need RS and Wikipedia rules. The info box recognizes Official language, according to the CIA fact book Arabic is an official language. Per Wiki info box it is NOT limited to what you just stated, that is your opinion not Wikipedia policy. I dont care either way, i rather not see Arabic up there, but I am also upkeeping Wiki standards.--Inayity (talk) 19:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- The template documentation is confusing on this. Its languages parameter indicates that it is reserved for "languages spoken by group". However, it also has native name and native_name_lang parameters meant for the "local language". Weird, but yeah, no big deal. Middayexpress (talk) 19:59, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am out here, if you want to include arabic with the reference, you can. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Middayexpress, English is an official language in Somaliland and Northern Kenya where many Somalis live. As for Ethiopian Somalis, census data from Ethiopia shows that Arabic is not recognized.Wadaad (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Somaliland is a region of Somalia, and English is only a working language for Somalis in NEP. Likewise, no Somalis have traditions of descent from English forebears, unlike Sheekh Darod, Sheekh Isaaq, Sheikh Ar-Rida, etc. Middayexpress (talk) 19:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Isaaq and Darod only carry local T1 and E1b1b lineages that aren't associated with the Arabian peninsula. It's a complete myth that the bulk of them descent from Arabian sheiks. These fables of Hashimite descent are common in the Islamic world and should be taken with a grain of salt.Wadaad (talk) 20:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Hodgson et al. has established that the West Eurasian ancestry in Somalis is ancient and not due to recent admixture from the Arabian peninsula. That ancestry is instead associated with the first Somali language speakers and the spread of the Afro-Asiatic family itself. Middayexpress (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- T is carried by all Somali clans and not just the Darod and the Isaaq. AcidSnow (talk) 20:42, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- @AcidSnow, I did not say that. What I said was that the Isaaq and Darood who have tested themselves on various genetic testing services only score T1 and E1b1b, nothing else from my knowledge. Pagani et al. who tested mainly Ogadenis also found that the vast majority of them only belong to T1 and E1b1b. Other common Horn African lineages like A3 and J1 were very low to nonexistant. This is in line with what I have observed. Wadaad (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- My bad, I read it as if you meant that only they carried it. 20:54, 28 September 2014 AcidSnow (talk) 20:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Haplogroup A3 is not associated with Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Horn; only haplogroups E1b1b, T and J are, with J having likely been introduced recently from the Arabian peninsula. When present, haplogroup A is instead indicative of Nilotic and/or Ari admixture. Middayexpress (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Haplogroup A3 is more frequent than T in non-Somali Ethiopians: source 1 & source 2. PS. Omotics have lower levels of A3 than Ethio-Semitic and Cushitic mainstream Ethiopians. The main Omotic haplogroup is E-M329 not A3 which is more Sudanese shifted and present in non-Somali Cushites because of early NS admixture in proto-Cushites who lived in Northern Sudan. Wadaad (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting, thanks. From that, it appears that the Ari don't carry haplogroup A3, but instead an E1b1a sub-clade. A3's presence amongst certain non-Somali Ethiopians is thus likely indicative of Nilotic influence alone. Assuming that the Omotic languages are indeed a divergent branch of Afro-Asiatic, this in turn suggests that most modern Omotic speakers likely adopted the Omotic languages at some time in their past since their mtDNA and autosomal DNA are also very different from those of mainstream Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians [9]. The Woleyta are unusual in that they are much closer both uniparentally and autosomally to mainstream Ethio-Semitic and Cushitic Ethiopians than are other Omotic speakers. Altogether, this suggests that either: a) the Woleyta are directly descended from the original Omotic speakers, having settled amongst and absorbed an autochthonous E1b1a-carrying population in Ethiopia who gradually adopted their Omotic language; or b) the first Woleyta settlers adopted a non-Afro-Asiatic, Omotic language from the aboriginal E1b1a-carrying population that they settled amongst and absorbed. Both would explain the divergent nature of the modern Omotic languages since a substratum influence would have been retained from the original language(s) of the E1b1a autochthones. It's the direction of language switching that is uncertain. At any rate, you'll probably be interested in the archaeological finds of Daniel Stiles; it substantiates some of what you suggested about the first Afro-Asiatic settlers in the broader region, as well as early documents and tradition [10] [11]. Middayexpress (talk) 18:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Haplogroup A3 is more frequent than T in non-Somali Ethiopians: source 1 & source 2. PS. Omotics have lower levels of A3 than Ethio-Semitic and Cushitic mainstream Ethiopians. The main Omotic haplogroup is E-M329 not A3 which is more Sudanese shifted and present in non-Somali Cushites because of early NS admixture in proto-Cushites who lived in Northern Sudan. Wadaad (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- @AcidSnow, I did not say that. What I said was that the Isaaq and Darood who have tested themselves on various genetic testing services only score T1 and E1b1b, nothing else from my knowledge. Pagani et al. who tested mainly Ogadenis also found that the vast majority of them only belong to T1 and E1b1b. Other common Horn African lineages like A3 and J1 were very low to nonexistant. This is in line with what I have observed. Wadaad (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- T is carried by all Somali clans and not just the Darod and the Isaaq. AcidSnow (talk) 20:42, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Hodgson et al. has established that the West Eurasian ancestry in Somalis is ancient and not due to recent admixture from the Arabian peninsula. That ancestry is instead associated with the first Somali language speakers and the spread of the Afro-Asiatic family itself. Middayexpress (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- The Isaaq and Darod only carry local T1 and E1b1b lineages that aren't associated with the Arabian peninsula. It's a complete myth that the bulk of them descent from Arabian sheiks. These fables of Hashimite descent are common in the Islamic world and should be taken with a grain of salt.Wadaad (talk) 20:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- Somaliland is a region of Somalia, and English is only a working language for Somalis in NEP. Likewise, no Somalis have traditions of descent from English forebears, unlike Sheekh Darod, Sheekh Isaaq, Sheikh Ar-Rida, etc. Middayexpress (talk) 19:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Middayexpress, English is an official language in Somaliland and Northern Kenya where many Somalis live. As for Ethiopian Somalis, census data from Ethiopia shows that Arabic is not recognized.Wadaad (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am out here, if you want to include arabic with the reference, you can. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
- The template documentation is confusing on this. Its languages parameter indicates that it is reserved for "languages spoken by group". However, it also has native name and native_name_lang parameters meant for the "local language". Weird, but yeah, no big deal. Middayexpress (talk) 19:59, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Wadaad we are on Wikipedia and only need RS and Wikipedia rules. The info box recognizes Official language, according to the CIA fact book Arabic is an official language. Per Wiki info box it is NOT limited to what you just stated, that is your opinion not Wikipedia policy. I dont care either way, i rather not see Arabic up there, but I am also upkeeping Wiki standards.--Inayity (talk) 19:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Arabic is on most government literature and buildings, is a language taught in many elementary schools, is a liturgical language, and is an additional broadcasting language. It is also an official language in both Somalia and Djibouti. As such, it can't be compared to English, which is only a working language in varying degrees. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Look at road signs, commercials signs etc in Hargeisa for instance. There are more English signs than Arabic ones. Clearly wouldn't be the case if Arabic was more dominant. Wadaad (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- So why is User:Wadaad and User:Bladesmulti deleting it?--Inayity (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Arabic
It seems to me, there's a couple stubborn individuals. As we know, Arabic is an official language in Somalia and Djibouti, many Somalis are fluent in Arabic yet it keeps being deleted from the "languages" section of the infobox. For the reasons, I'm hearing excuses about English, Italian and French. Yet, funny because those languages aren't even part of Somali culture, not as Arabic is and the far-reaching influence the Arabic media has. Now for whatever reason, I don't know why there are even Arabic translations if Arabic supposedly isn't spoken by Somalis. This is just sad an pathetic. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 00:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
- Arabic is widely spoken by Somalis and is an official language in both Somalia and Djibouti. It's just not the mother tongue of ethnic Somalis; Somali, another language from the Afro-Asiatic family, is instead. The Arabic script is there because as Wadaad's writing, it was traditionally used to write both Somali and Arabic. Middayexpress (talk) 16:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- It is not natively spoken by Somalis. It is merely used in some formal or religious occasions and not in day-to-day life.Wadaad (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- No one said it was a mother tongue. It is also not merely a liturgical language, as shown above. Middayexpress (talk) 19:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
- It is not natively spoken by Somalis. It is merely used in some formal or religious occasions and not in day-to-day life.Wadaad (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Number of Somalis in Sweden
The number of Somalis in Sweden is based on Statistics Sweden's figure for persons in Sweden born in Somalia. This does not account for 1) non-Somalis from Somalia (according to WP, 85% of the population are Somali) and 2) children of Somali immigrants that identify as Somali. How can this be noted? ✎ HannesP · talk 12:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've replaced it with a Global Migrant Origin Database figure for residents of Somali ancestry. Middayexpress (talk) 16:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately that figure is outdated; since 2007 the number of Somalia-born residents in Sweden has almost tripled. ✎ HannesP · talk 13:54, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is somewhat dated, but this page isn't on Somalia-born residents; it's on ethnic Somalis. At any rate, I've replaced it with a more recent OSS figure. Middayexpress (talk) 16:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Quite a few of the figures in the infobox refer to the Somali-born population of the countries listed, not the number of ethnic Somalis in those countries. Could some sort of system be devised to indicate which figures refer to which? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think so. The page is on ethnic Somalis, but the official population figures are mainly per country of origin. Middayexpress (talk) 18:10, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps the ones that are based on country of origin rather than ethnicity could have an asterisk next to them, with a note at the end of the infobox explaining this? It's just that at the moment, there's no explanation of what the figures represent, or that they represent different things. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- That wouldn't work, as most are based on country of origin. That's unfortunately the middle ground here. Middayexpress (talk) 18:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- In that case, you could say that the figures are for country of birth, and then asterisk the ones that aren't. One way or another, there should be an explanation of what the figures actually represent. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Properly labeled links are sufficient for that. Middayexpress (talk) 19:06, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- In that case, you could say that the figures are for country of birth, and then asterisk the ones that aren't. One way or another, there should be an explanation of what the figures actually represent. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- That wouldn't work, as most are based on country of origin. That's unfortunately the middle ground here. Middayexpress (talk) 18:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps the ones that are based on country of origin rather than ethnicity could have an asterisk next to them, with a note at the end of the infobox explaining this? It's just that at the moment, there's no explanation of what the figures represent, or that they represent different things. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think so. The page is on ethnic Somalis, but the official population figures are mainly per country of origin. Middayexpress (talk) 18:10, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Quite a few of the figures in the infobox refer to the Somali-born population of the countries listed, not the number of ethnic Somalis in those countries. Could some sort of system be devised to indicate which figures refer to which? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is somewhat dated, but this page isn't on Somalia-born residents; it's on ethnic Somalis. At any rate, I've replaced it with a more recent OSS figure. Middayexpress (talk) 16:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately that figure is outdated; since 2007 the number of Somalia-born residents in Sweden has almost tripled. ✎ HannesP · talk 13:54, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm just revisiting this issue and note that the names of the reference don't identify what the figures refer to in most cases. Middayexpress appears to have retired from editing, but I don't want to use that situation to force through my own preference (not that I have a strong one anyway), so I'm opening an RfC on this. The question is, how should we differentiate between figures based on country of birth and figures based on ethnicity in the infobox of this article? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Wadaad and Soupforone, I notice that you've recently edited these figures. Do you have any views on this issue? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:10, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I was just updating data on Somalis in other European countries. Didn't touch the Swedish data.Wadaad (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- The issue isn't specific to the Swedish data, Wadaad. The question is whether and how we should explain that the figures for different countries are based on different definitions. Some are figures for ethnic Somalis and some for people born in Somalia. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter. They are rough estimates. Many ethnic Somalis are counted under the statistics of Ethiopia and Kenya or are lost in data collection as soon as they hit the 3rd generation and hence these figures may even underestimate the Somali population in various Western countries.Wadaad (talk) 11:25, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- The issue isn't specific to the Swedish data, Wadaad. The question is whether and how we should explain that the figures for different countries are based on different definitions. Some are figures for ethnic Somalis and some for people born in Somalia. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I was just updating data on Somalis in other European countries. Didn't touch the Swedish data.Wadaad (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Haji Bashir Ismail Yusuf
5.107.229.108, I have reverted your addition of the description of Haji Bashir Ismail Yusuf as "speaker of the Somalia Act of Union", because that description doesn't make sense in English. What does it mean to say that someone is the "speaker" of an act of parliament? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:05, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Infobox parameters
On the coding, please see Infobox parameter. Soupforone (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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Genetics for ethnic groups RfC
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. This has been set up to determine the appropriateness of sections such as the "genetics" section in this article. I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. --Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
IP vandalism
An IP has spammed falsities. Haak et al. did not genotype this population [12]. Likewise, Trombetta et al. (2015) [13] did not test any specific clans for this or any other ethnic group, much less associate it with "Samaale" or the Land of Punt - see Supplementary Table 7 [14]. Soupforone (talk) 00:18, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
- Soupforone has deleted sourced information repeatedly. Soupforone reports falsities. Haak et al. 2015 are using Somali samples for autosomal analysis. Plaster et al. 2011, not Trombetta as wrongly reported initially, did test Somalis from Dire Dawa belonging to Dir clan. Other studies on Djibouti also found the same pattern. Land of Punt is inhabited by Dir clan members. Dir clan is the most accepted descendants of Samaale according to all known sources on this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.14.247.234 (talk) 14:25, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for finally deciding to respond. However, you messed up the comment chronology in your remark above, which I have now fixed [15]. With that said, Haak et al. (2015) [16] don't even allude to Somalis, let alone associate the presence of haplogroup T with "Eurasian physical traits" (Oh? Aeta "Eurasians" too?). They also don't suggest that Somalis inherited "dark skin... from their E1b ancestors". This is soapboxing. Lastly, it's good that you admit that you made a mistake and that it is actually Plaster et al. (2011) which found the 82.4% (not "more than 70%") of haplogroup T among Somalis inhabiting Dire Dawa, and not Trombetta et al. (2015) as you initially claimed. Nevertheless, as can clearly be seen here, Plaster et al. indicate nothing vis-a-vis any specific clans, much less link the high presence of haplogroup T in that area with "Samaale" or the ancient Land of Punt. They only assert that their Dire Dawa sample is ethnically Somali ("both the Afar province and the Chartered City of Dire Dawa (CC2) are ethnically uniform, with all samples belonging to the Afar (AF) and Somali (SM) ethnic groups respectively"). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this too was an "error". Regardless, I've fixed it as well. Soupforone (talk) 16:32, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
There are several claims that you had never edited. We can start to clean all of this one to one. You said that "don't even allude to Somalis" this is because you have not read the peper. Somalis are used for autosomal analysis in this study. Dire Dawa as Djibouti are mostly inhabited by the Dir clan, this is a fact according to all sources. Dirs are the most accepted descendants of Samaale, this is another fact supported by all sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.14.247.234 (talk) 10:26, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- As demonstrated and can be seen here [17], Plaster et al. (2011) only indicate that their Chartered City of Dire Dawa sample is ethnically Somali. They don't indicate that it belongs to any specific clan, though it may indeed mostly consist of Dir individuals given where it was culled. However, as the distribution map shows [18], this clan also inhabits northwestern Somalia and northern Ethiopia, where T lineages appear to be at a lower frequency. So it cannot be said for certain that the northern Dir or the Dir as a whole are associated with haplogroup T. Also, Haak et al. (2015) didn't analyse Somalis - please see here [19]. With that said, just because Trombetta et al. (2015) detected only 25% of E1b1b-M215 lineages in their Djibouti sample doesn't necessarily mean that the rest were haplogroup T bearers. They are instead more likely to be carriers of haplogroups that are related to but more upstream than E1b1b since Trombetta et al. observed 50% of non-E1b1b clades in their Ethiopia sample, whereas most of Plaster et al.'s Somali Region sample consisted of E*(xE1b1a) carriers. E*(xE1b1a) here means all E clades excluding E1b1a. Thus, it pertains to E1b1b, but not exclusively. Trombetta et al.'s Table 7 indicates the E1b1b-M215 sublineages only [20]. Soupforone (talk) 16:56, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
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Somalis ethnically are not Arabs
Somalis are ethnically not Arabs. Somalia Business Law Handbook: Strategic Information and Laws. International Business Publications, USA. Aug 1, 2013. p. 48. ISBN 1-4387-7104-5.
According to CIA FactBook there are 10 million people in Somalia but there are only 30,000 Arabs in the country. "People and Society Somalia -". CIA Factbook.
Libanguled (talk) 23:37, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, Somalis are instead of Hamitic ancestral origin.[1] That they aren't ethnically Arab is not particularly meaningful, though, since the Arab world is chiefly comprised of Arabized populations. Most Maghrebis and Egyptians are of related Hamitic stock, and many Near Easterners are descended from various local Semitic speaking populations rather than from the peninsular Arabs. All speak languages from the Afro-Asiatic (Hamitic-Semitic) family. Soupforone (talk) 02:46, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
References
- ^ Lewis, I. M. (1999). A Pastoral Democracy: A Study of Pastoralism and Politics Among the Northern Somali of the Horn of Africa. James Currey Publishers. p. 11. ISBN 0852552807.
Somalis are not Arabs. The Read Sea and the Gulf of Aden. Brill Academic Publishers, Inc. 1982. p. 88. ISBN 9789024725014.
Who Intervenes?: Ethnic Conflict and Interstate Crisis. Ohio State University Press. 2006. p. 76. ISBN 9780814210130.
Libanguled (talk) 13:00, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Many Somalis have Afro-textured hair while Arabs don't
Almost half of Somalis have Afro-textured hair like the somali singer knaan and you will never see an Arab person with Afro-textured hair. The fact that many Somalis have Afro-textured hair like the rest of black Africans proves that Somalis are not Arabs because there are no Arab person with Afro-textured hair. 174.24.209.207 (talk) 09:21, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:No original research. If there are reliable sources that make this argument, fine, but otherwise it just appears to be your opinion. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Somalis are not Arabs. The Read Sea and the Gulf of Aden. Brill Academic Publishers, Inc. 1982. p. 88. ISBN 9789024725014.
Who Intervenes?: Ethnic Conflict and Interstate Crisis. Ohio State University Press. 2006. p. 76. ISBN 9780814210130.
Libanguled (talk) 12:29, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
Ip, trolling aside, you are actually not entirely wrong. According to phenotypic analysis by the anthropologist Nella Puccioni, ethnic Somalis come in three distinct physical types: an original Hamitic northern type (Heggi/Haji), a Negroid-influenced riverine type (Sab/Rahanweyn), and an intermediate southern type (Haouia/Hawiye). The northern type is tall, lithe, fine-featured, lighter-skinned and wavy-haired. The riverine type is much shorter, stockier, less fine-featured, darker-skinned, and often has afro-textured hair due to admixture with freed slaves. The southern type is intermediate between the two in all measurements [21]. Also see I. M. Lewis for a summary of these phenotypical differences [22]. Soupforone (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- As I have pointed out before, Bantus never lived in the Horn of Africa prior to the 1800's. There's also few cases of inter marriage between these two groups as doing so would result in exile [23]. So to claim a whole clan as such is highly absurd. More importantly, Somalis poses a common origin which is not only supported by genetics but also Somali culture and history[24]. The features pointed out by Soupforone aren't prominent nor exclusive to one clan since they can be found in all of them. This shouldn't come as surprise since Somalis are often reported for looking similar to one another[25]. But this necssarily true as we have already shown. As for the Afro itself, you can find it all across Egypt by people who aren't Nubian but rather individuals whom also possess the Arab belief. Not only this, but many Somalis have wavy and straight hair. So does that make them Japanese? Maybe. AcidSnow (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- That's true. Actually, notwithstanding any extraneous influence, afro-textured hair is rare among Somalis and related populations. What is instead generally found are wavy, straight and other varieties, all of which are microscopically distinct from actual ulotrichous hair [26]. Soupforone (talk) 02:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Somalis look-alike regardless of their clan. It is impossible to know what clan a person is by the way they look. For example the former governor of northern region of Bari who is Majerten of Darod clan has Negroid-features [27] [28] . When the civil war happened many Somalis survived by identifying with other neutral clans, this would have impossible if it was possible to tell a persons clan by the way they look. Also sometimes members of minority clans identify with majority clans. "Most of the minority groups have assimilated into other Somalia clans with whom they live. For example, the Galgala have assimilated into the Abgal in Jowhar and Mogadishu. However, they identify themselves as Nuh Mohamud, a sub clan of the Majerten clan. Some Gaboye, Tumal and Yibir assimilated into the Isak in Somaliland, while others yet have assimilated into the Darod in Puntland and central regions. There are also other Gaboye, Tumal and Yibir who assimilated with Hawadle, Murasade and Marehan clans in Galgadud region. With the exception of the Bantu, Rerhamar, Bravanese, Bajuni and Eyle who have distinct "non-Somali" physical appearance, all other minorities have physical appearances similar to that of the dominant clans, as well as having ethnic and cultural similarities. What distinguish the assimilated minorities are their distinct economic livelihoods." http://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia
Libanguled (talk) 21:34, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's impossible to guess a persons clan passed off their appearance. This is one of the few things that we seem to agree on. AcidSnow (talk) 22:25, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
AcidSnow, that phenotypical analysis was from the turn of the 20th century, when there was less assimilation and clan lineages were more stringent. The anthropologist L. Royblicka-Bernat also observed something similar [29]. Anyway, your point is well taken. Soupforone (talk) 02:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Mota Cave
The genetic study on the Mota Cave specimen and the estimate based on it are faulty. The scientists published an erratum indicating as much [30]. It has also since then been discovered that Levantine rather than European farmers are actually a better fit for the Neolithic settlers from West Eurasia in the Horn [31]. Soupforone (talk) 16:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
- According to a DNA study Somalis and Ethiopians can trace more than 30% of their DNA to Eurasian immigrants that came to horn of Africa about 3,000 years ago.
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-ancient-ethiopian-dna-eurasia-20151008-story.html
. Somalis have admixture.Guled2016 (talk) 00:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- According to a DNA study Somalis and Ethiopians can trace more than 30% of their DNA to Eurasian immigrants that came to horn of Africa about 3,000 years ago.
- Well, as explained, that study was based on a bioinformatics error; the scientists indicated as much. The estimate is also inaccurate because it is now understood that the West Eurasian Neolithic settlers in the Horn were more akin to Levantine populations than to Sardinians as had previously been assumed [32]: "Migrations from the Near East also occurred towards the southwest into East African populations which experienced West Eurasian admixture ~1,000 BCE. Previously, the West Eurasian population known to be the best proxy for this ancestry was present-day Sardinians, who resemble Neolithic Europeans genetically. However, our analysis shows that East African ancestry is significantly better modelled by Levantine early farmers than by Anatolian or early European farmers, implying that the spread of this ancestry to East Africa was not from the same group that spread Near Eastern ancestry into Europe" Soupforone (talk) 03:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Figure
The 10,000 figure attributed to Tripodi appears to be incorrect, as he does not indicate this [33]. Soupforone (talk) 02:30, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Clans
AcidSnow, I think perhaps we should note the main anthropological differences between the northern clans and the southern Sab (nasal index, cephalic index, pigmentation, hair form, somatotype, prognathism, stature, etc.). Because like in the Indian peninsula, there are considerable dichotomies between the northern and southern areas as far as differing admixtures and ancestries [34]. Soupforone (talk) 16:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
source checks, WP:BRD and WP:TAD
- (@Soupforone message copied from my talk page for context ...)
- Greetings! I have restored the original headers on Somalis, as the page was honed through a laborious consensus process between myself and AcidSnow and Awale-Abdi. Per WP:BRD, please therefore do not append or remove any potentially contentious material without discussion and consensus. Also note that WP:TAD does not circumvent the consensus process, and applies to stub pages specifically. Kind Regards-- Soupforone (talk) 17:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Soupforone: You have a weird understanding of WP:BRD. Unsourced OR is not allowed in any article, and your past consensus with someone on unsourced content is irrelevant and a puzzling misinterpretation of wikipedia community accepted content guidelines. I encourage you to not edit war with me, but collaborate with me and add sources to support paragraphs that have no source. The Lewis source is misrepresented in this article, please check pages 51 and 52 again. Let us discuss this here, instead of my talk page. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
The consensus was obviously not over original research. These discussions also mainly took place on AcidSnow and Awale-Abdi's respective talk pages, as well as with AbwaanRooble. I'm telling you this because you told me elsewhere that there was some existing consensus to exclude Jews from the religion parameter on non-Jewish ethnicity page infoboxes. Also, please note that the compensatory diyya-paying system is already discussed under the xeer customary law, and the Arab lineage traditions are likewise already noted under clan (all clans have Arab lineage traditions btw). Anyway, please heretofore discuss for consensus. Regards-- Soupforone (talk) 20:34, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Soupforone:: What nonsense!! Can you edit-diff your allegation, "you told me elsewhere" about Jews and non-Jewish page infoboxes? I think you have me confused with some another editor? Also, neither you nor I own any wikipedia page. I see you have had issues at ANI, including with @AcidSnow you mention above. You need consensus from others, as much as I do. Quit this BRD lecturing, and let us collaborate to improve this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:12, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
User:AcidSnow is actually not addressing me there, but rather the posting user (who has since been indefinitely blocked btw). Anyway, what you indicated was that Judaism was o/r [35]. However, Minahan does actually indicate that some Shilha Berbers are Jewish adherents [36], so I assumed that you meant instead Jewish ethnicity. Soupforone (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC) Also, while the consensus process is indeed bidirectional, please note that the WP:BURDEN to obtain consensus is actually on the editor who wants to make changes. That's why I asked you to present any potential wordings first here on the talk page for discussion and consensus. Soupforone (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Kinship
@Soupforone: why remove kinship sub-section and the scholarly sources? Your edit summary alleges it is redundant, but how is it redundant? The old article never mentioned it. Kinship is a notable feature of Somali people, kinship is discussed in encyclopedic articles on Somalis published by Oxford University Press etc, there are numerous WP:RS on it. Lewis wrote a whole book on Somali kinship. Once again I am puzzled in another wiki article by your behavior of deleting sourced content. Please do not delete it. I think we should expand the kinship subsection. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:29, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that kinship is important. However, this particular issue has been a bone of contention, particular the notion of which clans may have Arabian influence. AcidSnow and Awale-Abdi think it is uniform across clans, whereas your edit suggested it was concentrated among the coastal groups. Discussion and consensus is therefore necessary. Also, the passage indicated that the main kinship unit is the clan, which is already discussed under the clan area. It also notes that diyya is paid out, which is contextualized under the law area. Soupforone (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC)