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*[[/Archive 2|Archive 2]] (2008–2010) |
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({{Findsources|Snooker}}) |
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==Ball sizes?== |
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With so many different sizes of tables, balls come in many sizes even in children's sizes. |
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What are the sizes? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/115.70.29.185|115.70.29.185]] ([[User talk:115.70.29.185#top|talk]]) 08:54, 5 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==Snooker variants== |
==Snooker variants== |
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{{Unresolved|1=Consensus has been to put them in a variants section, but it remains undeveloped.}} |
{{Unresolved|1=Consensus has been to put them in a variants section, but it remains undeveloped.}} |
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:If there are many variants of the game described in this book, maybe best resolve will be to write a [[Variants of snooker]] article. And to write there what of these variants are the most popular--[[User:Якушев Илья|Якушев Илья]] ([[User talk:Якушев Илья|talk]]) 21:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC) |
:If there are many variants of the game described in this book, maybe best resolve will be to write a [[Variants of snooker]] article. And to write there what of these variants are the most popular--[[User:Якушев Илья|Якушев Илья]] ([[User talk:Якушев Илья|talk]]) 21:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC) |
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{{Resolved|Fixed.}} |
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The article states that a snooker table is 12ft X 6ft but the rules of snooker say that it should be 11ft 8.5in X 5ft 10in. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.185.46.97|86.185.46.97]] ([[User talk:86.185.46.97|talk]]) 09:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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⚫ | Text added by IP: {{tq|Snookerpool is also a commonly played variant especially within the casual or amateur community, which is full snooker played on a standard 9-ball table; the larger pockets make shots somewhat easier and players are able to torch the cueball into the pack much more easily for a better spread of reds.}} The edit was reverted as unsourced. I still think there might be something in this so I've appealed to the IP on their [[User talk:217.155.44.114#Snookerpool|Talk page]] for clarification. But without any sources, there's not really a lot we can do with it. [[User:Rodney Baggins|Rodney Baggins]] ([[User talk:Rodney Baggins|talk]]) 14:16, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== Pronunciation == |
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⚫ | :I'm sure there are people who call it that, but I've searched a lot, and they almost always say it's just an old name for snooker. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 14:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
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I don't know why Haldraper insists on removing this but it seems he won't stop. So I would like to start a conversation to get consensus to back or forbid a pronunciation. It is clear to me that there needs to be a pronunciation; the pronunciation is unclear and we frequently include such pronunciation guides. [[Special:Contributions/67.164.156.42|67.164.156.42]] ([[User talk:67.164.156.42|talk]]) 03:25, 27 June 2013 (UTC) |
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*I agree, we should keep it in. [[User:Ged UK|<span style="color:green;">Ged</span>]][[User talk:Ged UK|<span style="color:orange;">'''''UK'''''</span> ]] 11:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Retain in lead''' Pronunciation is a valuable addition to any article (when cited to a reliable source, which this is) where the topic's name is not either extremely obvious to any native speaker, or a phrase composed of common English words. It usually appears in the lead sentence by convention unless a more expansive treatment is needed (and it feels right to me there). This is reflected at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Placement]]. I don't agree that it is "undue", "unecessary" or that removing it is needed to "declutter [the] opening para[graph]", which have been cited in the edit summaries accompanying the removals. If there was a lot to say here I would agree it would be better in the body as noted in the MOS, but <code>(UK /ˈsnuːkər, -kə/[1] or US /ˈsnʊkər/)</code> has a minor footprint--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 23:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC) |
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:::A bit unclear here. You've got "two" pronunciations in there, but they appear to be identical: 'Snooker pronounced UK: snuker, pronounced US: snuker. What's the difference? And is the correct pronunciation really "shuk" (rhymes with "duck")? I've always heard it pronounced "snook" (rhymes with "book"). <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.89.176.249|70.89.176.249]] ([[User talk:70.89.176.249#top|talk]]) 23:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Decade == |
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{{Resolved|1=Fixed.}} |
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The caption under the picture of Ronnie O'Sullivan says: |
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<blockquote>Ronnie O’Sullivan won most titles in the last decade (2001, 2004, 2008, 2012 and 2013).</blockquote> |
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A decade is 10 years whereas these dates span 13 years <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.158.140.93|81.158.140.93]] ([[User talk:81.158.140.93|talk]]) 13:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::Thank you for mentioning this. It has now been {{done|fixed}}. --[[User:BlueFire10|BlueFire10]] [[User_talk:BlueFire10|<sup style="color:#E3A857;">Let's talk</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/BlueFire10|<sub style="color:#008000;">about my edits?</sub>]] 18:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC) |
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Hmmmm, technically speaking it's been half fixed. The last decade, in World Championship terms, is surely 2003 to 2013. Probably best to change the phrase to "Ronnie O’Sullivan has won the most World titles in the 21st Century" or similar, I would think..? |
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:Fixed that, too. You don't need to establish consensus to fix obvious errors like this. Be [[WP:BOLD]]. :-) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 23:23, 6 May 2014 (UTC) |
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== Needs a sourcing overhaul == |
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In 2017 terms, the sourcing in here is pretty embarrassing – lots of random websites by nobodies ([[WP:SPS]]), and lots of dead links that needs to be replaced with Web archive snapshots (<code><nowiki>{{cite web | ... |dead-url=yes |archive-url= https://... |archive-date=...}}</nowiki></code>}} so they work and so this stops categorizing as having dead links in it. There are way better sources available on this history of snooker, anyway, than things like fcsnooker and titansports, which are not reputable publishers. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ><sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>< </span> 20:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC) |
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== Talk page, but no article == |
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There is [[Talk:List of snooker players by number of ranking titles/Archive 1]] but no article [[List of snooker players by number of ranking titles/Archive 1]] now. Please fix.--[[User:Dthomsen8|Dthomsen8]] ([[User talk:Dthomsen8|talk]]) 13:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Dthomsen8}} It's an archive page of that talk page. The talk page itself is at [[Talk:List of snooker players by number of ranking titles]]. [[User:Ged UK|<span style="color:green">Ged</span>]][[User talk:Ged UK|<span style="color:orange">'''''UK'''''</span> ]] 13:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC) |
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== Nomination of [[:Portal:Snooker]] for deletion == |
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<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether '''[[:Portal:Snooker]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]]. |
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The page will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Snooker]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. |
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Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page.<!-- Template:mfd-notice --> <span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Northamerica1000|North America]]<sup>[[User talk:Northamerica1000|<span style="font-size: x-small;">1000</span>]]</sup></span> 04:32, 9 June 2019 (UTC) |
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{{Talk:Snooker/GA2}} |
{{Talk:Snooker/GA2}} |
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== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == |
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: |
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* [[commons:File:Snooker table selby.JPG|Snooker table selby.JPG]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2020-09-05T21:21:47.660032 | Snooker table selby.JPG --> |
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the [[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Snooker table selby.JPG|nomination page]]. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 21:21, 5 September 2020 (UTC) |
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== Miscellaneous Notes == |
== Miscellaneous Notes == |
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{{Sources-talk}} |
{{Sources-talk}} |
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== A game and a frame are not the same (thing) == |
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We've been working on the assumption that ''game'' and ''frame'' are interchangeable but this is not actually the case. According to the official WPBSA Rulebook (page 10), "''A game is an agreed or stipulated number of frames.''" and "''A match is an agreed or stipulated number of games.''" So the only time when a "game" and a "frame" could be treated as the same thing is if we say each game consists of just one frame. Do we need to address this anomaly in the article or just avoid it altogether? |
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I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that a game might be seen as a mini-session (a "best of 3 frames" or a "best of 5 frames") and then you play these a number of times to make up an entire match. Has this format ever been used historically? Modern snooker matches do tend to be split across sessions, but as each session normally contains an even number of frames there's not necessarily an outright winner so it doesn't quite tally up with that idea. |
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The anomoly was up front in the first paragraph until Lee removed it yesterday. So shall we agree to just reserve the word "game" for the phrase "the game of snooker"? [[User:Rodney Baggins|Rodney Baggins]] ([[User talk:Rodney Baggins|talk]]) 18:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:The only time I can think of was one of the challenge world championship matches was played this way. When we say "the game of snooker" we aren't saying "a game of snooker", we are saying that snooker is a game (past time), rather than saying snooker games. These are two meanings to the same word. I don't see an issue with how it is worded currently. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 18:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::Oh yes, I meant "''the game'' of snooker" when referring to snooker as a game that one might play (recreation, pastime), rather than "''a game'' of snooker" (as in a "frame"). The only place I can see where it might be misconstrued is the first sentence of the last paragraph in the [[Snooker#Scoring|Scoring]] subsection, which says: {{tq|One game of snooker, beginning with the balls in their starting positions and ending when the last ball is potted, is called a "frame".}} Is that OK? [[User:Rodney Baggins|Rodney Baggins]] ([[User talk:Rodney Baggins|talk]]) 19:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Perhaps a synonym like "a contest of snooker", or just say "one frame" Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 19:44, 15 February 2021 (UTC) |
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⚫ | Text added by IP: {{tq|Snookerpool is also a commonly played variant especially within the casual or amateur community, which is full snooker played on a standard 9-ball table; the larger pockets make shots somewhat easier and players are able to torch the cueball into the pack much more easily for a better spread of reds.}} The edit was reverted as unsourced. I still think there might be something in this so I've appealed to the IP on their [[User talk:217.155.44.114#Snookerpool|Talk page]] for clarification. But without any sources, there's not really a lot we can do with it. [[User:Rodney Baggins|Rodney Baggins]] ([[User talk:Rodney Baggins|talk]]) 14:16, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
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⚫ | :I'm sure there are people who call it that, but I've searched a lot, and they almost always say it's just an old name for snooker. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 14:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== is snooker pool? == |
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just a question. |
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[[User:Keelanscanlan|Keelanscanlan]] callidus 18:31, 4 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:No, snooker and [[Pool (cue sports)|pool]] are just two of many different [[cue sports]]. [[User:Rodney Baggins|Rodney Baggins]] ([[User talk:Rodney Baggins|talk]]) 18:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC) |
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::We do have [[Comparison of cue sports]], but it really need some work. Snooker has a lot of similarities to pool (bare in mind pool is a series of several games), but not the same, and played with significantly different equipment (balls, table, cues etc.) than that of pool. It's also got a completely different style of play. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 19:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== Possible Snooker Origins== |
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(Just a few thoughts): |
(Just a few thoughts): |
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:Thank you. [[User:Reddog78|Reddog78]] ([[User talk:Reddog78|talk]]) 17:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
:Thank you. [[User:Reddog78|Reddog78]] ([[User talk:Reddog78|talk]]) 17:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::It may not be encyclopedic (i.e., it may be [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]]) to attempt to catalogue every minor variant of ancestral versions of the game that were informally played among some British officers in India. Not feeling strongly either way about it, just suggesting it needs consideration. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 17:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
::It may not be encyclopedic (i.e., it may be [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]]) to attempt to catalogue every minor variant of ancestral versions of the game that were informally played among some British officers in India. Not feeling strongly either way about it, just suggesting it needs consideration. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 17:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Thank you. Of course I know what you mean with regards to cataloguing every minor variant of the game. I just find it interesting that's all, to compare the variants to modern snooker and find the similarities. [[User:Reddog78|Reddog78]] ([[User talk:Reddog78|talk]]) 18:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Back in the day, when I was collecting rulebooks, I considered doing a "History of eight-ball" article that was going to cover all the rule changes over time, but gave up on it as a difficult task and of questionable "encyclopedic-ness". For snooker, it might be more pertinent to cover the origin variations, without poring over all the rule changes in the later game. But someone might disagree and want to cover all those, too. Not trying to impose my will. Just kind of asking the question. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 18:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Thank you. Yes origin variations might be better rather than rule changes. And generally all I have been typing about about above is the game of pyramids, and then different coloured balls were introduced to the reds down the centre of the table at various times. Regards. [[User:Reddog78|Reddog78]] ([[User talk:Reddog78|talk]]) 18:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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⚫ | ::::::Right. Overall I lean toward it being pertinent, though I'm wondering whether the history section might not better split out to a [[History of snooker]] side article. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 19:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::Or it could just be summarised in the history section of this article, maybe something like: |
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:::::::''"By 1884, four coloured balls had been added to the fifteen red balls: In the order of sequence of yellow, green, brown and blue, each ball was placed on one of the four spots down the centre of the table, beginning with the yellow on the middle of the D spot which was worth two points. And ending with the blue on the billiard (black) spot, which was worth five points. A variation was played in 1886, whereby the black took the place of the blue ball."'' |
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:::::::The only reason I quoted the 1884 rule (which by the way are the earliest rules of snooker I can find on the internet), is because I find it interesting regarding the fact that the yellow, green, brown, and blue are all each worth exactly the same amount of points that they are in today's game. And the highest numbered ball was the one on the billiard spot as it is today too. |
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:::::::Thank you. [[User:Reddog78|Reddog78]] ([[User talk:Reddog78|talk]]) 06:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 10:20, 10 March 2024
Snooker is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Snooker variants
Volunteer snooker
Suite101.com says that "Volunteer Snooker is a variation of snooker that was alive and popular in the late 1950's". www.suite101.com/article.cfm/cue_sports/24540 Якушев Илья (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- This needs its own Volunteer snooker article, or a section here. Or see below for third option. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 21:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Other variants
The small book "Snooker Games" by Mike Stooke (1988, ISBN 9780951297704) documents more snooker variations, "chase the green", "crash" and "cricket", that either need articles or should have short coverage here. Or maybe there should be a Variants of snooker article with all of these as well as volunteer snooker, sinuca Brasileira, etc. Needs to be resolved one of these three ways. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 21:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- If there are many variants of the game described in this book, maybe best resolve will be to write a Variants of snooker article. And to write there what of these variants are the most popular--Якушев Илья (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Snookerpool
Text added by IP: Snookerpool is also a commonly played variant especially within the casual or amateur community, which is full snooker played on a standard 9-ball table; the larger pockets make shots somewhat easier and players are able to torch the cueball into the pack much more easily for a better spread of reds.
The edit was reverted as unsourced. I still think there might be something in this so I've appealed to the IP on their Talk page for clarification. But without any sources, there's not really a lot we can do with it. Rodney Baggins (talk) 14:16, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sure there are people who call it that, but I've searched a lot, and they almost always say it's just an old name for snooker. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Snooker/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 13:56, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Comments
What a fine article. I shall have only small comments to make.
- Sir Neville Chamberlain: Perhaps provide his dates (1856–1944) as he isn't the better-known chap of this name (and yes, I saw the footnote).
- Wasn't sure which place this is suitible, so I added the dates to the lede. I can also add to the prose if suitible (but, there is already a note, as suggested above). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Ooty: suggest we have at least one of the city's real names in parentheses (Udagamandalam, Ootacamund).
- Specifics added to prose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- "from a pastime activity to a professional activity". Suggest "from a pastime to a professional activity".
- I thought I'd already changed this one. Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- "United Kingdom,[22] Ireland and much of the Commonwealth," add a comma after "Ireland".
- WP:SERIAL says you can use either a serial comma or not, so long as it is consistent. If I've used a serial elsewhwere, I'll update. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Objective: remove "Figure A" from image caption.
- reworded Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Equipment: I see there is already an excellent Glossary of cue sports terms. I suggest we remove all the duplication with that glossary, i.e. the equipment discussion is made not to contain a list of terms at all. I suggest that there should remain the top 2 paragraphs and the paragraph on "Cloth" (but without the heading). You might wish to keep some of the citations from the list, or move them to the Glossary article. The first word "Accessories" links to the section itself, so please remove that link too.
- Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Variants: same again really; there is a right-and-proper link to Snooker variants, which should be a "Main" link, followed by a single-paragraph summary but no list in this article.
- Actually, the link is simply to Category:snooker variants, and not an article, or I would have taken the section out in it's entirety. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- See also: Perhaps the Ladies World Snooker Championship deserves a short cited paragraph in the article instead of a see also link?
- There is a bit that I added about women's and seniors in Governance and tournaments. It could be expanded, sure, but outside of the professional game, the women's game is barely covered. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- See also: I don't see the logic in including the 2019/2020 season here as it's in the navbar below and we certainly don't want to include all the other seasons here.
- Removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Image "Ronnie O'Sullivan": Suggest add "The English player ..."
- Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Burroughes & Watts: please wikilink.
- Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Heading "Notable players": the term "notable" is a risky one as all Wikipedia subjects are by definition notable (or ripe for deletion). The intention here seems to be "The game's most famous champions" so perhaps a short heading with that sort of meaning would be better here.
- Changed to "important". I can't think of a better names. Maybe "important figures", but they are all players, so it's a little bit more suitable Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- You might want to put a photo of the pioneering and exceptional Joe Davis in the "Famous champions" section (and left-align it).
- I'm not a fan of left align, but adding a photo of Joe is a great idea. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Gadsby and Williams 2012: as there is just one use of this "Source" I suggest you merge it with the ref and remove the "Sources" section. You could therefore also remove the "Citations" heading.
- Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- External links: Is "Cuesports club" there for good reason? It looks a bit like advertising. The "History of Billiards in Brazil" also looks somewhat misplaced; if it's notable that history should be described briefly in the article and cited to that source, but at a glance the page doesn't say a lot (so maybe remove it).
- Removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:49, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Chiswick Chap, I've replied to all of the above. There's a couple things I haven't changed, as per comments above. Else, everything else is covered. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:04, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Well I think we're all done here, in record time. Like an O'Sullivan break, or something. Great work. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Miscellaneous Notes
The BACC "eventually agreed to stage the first Professional Championship of Snooker's Pool in the 1926-27 season. It was a season-long tournament; the first world championship game was between Melbourne Inman and Tom Newman at Thurston's Hall, played between November 26 and December 6, 1926 ... The final, which Davis won, was held at one of Camkin's Billiard Halls in Birmingham, and started on May 9, 1927."[1] Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:56, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for that Benny. I can see that the championship is labelled 1927 because that's when the all-important final took place, but it was actually spread over the 26/27 season. I'm thinking we can probably cover the confusion using a carefully worded footnote, which itself could carry your citation. I'll look at it later. Rodney Baggins (talk) 09:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
"During the 1880s rumours of this new game reached England, and when John Roberts went to India on one of his tours he had it in his mind to find out the rules. One evening in 1885 in Calcutta, Chamberlain was dining with the Maharajah of Cooch Behar when Roberts was introduced to him. Roberts duly brought the game back to England. It was many a long day before snooker became widely played. Not every hall nor every club could afford a snooker set of 22 balls although it was not long before the manufacturers appreciated snooker's superior commercial possibilities."[2]
"The rules of snooker, which had been subject to many variations, were codified in when the Billiards Association and Billiards Control Club amalgamated in 1919. The drawn game was abolished when provision was made for the black to be respotted at the end of a frame if the scores were equal. The free ball was introduced to supersede the BCC rule that if a player was snookered he could have the snookering ball(s) taken up so that he could play onto the 'nearest ball playable' ... The penalty for going in-off a red was still only one, the four point minimum penalty still being a few years away. The touching ball rule was introduced in 1927."[3]
Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:22, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
"Unfortunately, there are no contemporary accounts of the invention of the game, and the preceding story [i.e. about Chamberlain in India] was not related until the 1930s. No description of snooker before that time contains any mention of its genesis, and news articles concerning Chamberlain make no reference of any role he may have had in its invention."; "The game was introduced into Australia in 1887 by Frank Smith Sr."[4] On page 229, Shamos lists the following variations, each of which have their own entry in the Encyclopedia: American Snooker, Canadian Snooker, Devil-among-the-tailors, four-handed snooker, Golf, Liability, Nine-hole snooker, Pay ball, Penalty game, Pink pool, Savile snooker, Short snooker, Snooker billiards, Snooker golf, Snooker plus, Snooker roulette, Snookerette, Volunteer snooker. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:57, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
In August 1924, Tom Dennis wrote to the BA&CC asking them to organise an open professional snooker tournament. BA&CC Secretary A. Stanley Thorn replied "The suggestion will receive consideration at an early date but it seems a little doubtful whether snooker as a spectacular game is sufficiently popular to warrant the successful promotion of such a competition."[5]
"Camkin was also very much involved in instituting the professional snooker championship. As a proprietor of billiard halls, he knew full well how popular snooker was; and a conversation with Joe Davis, who had played snooker since his youthful days of managing billiard halls around Chesterfield, led to Davis's writing to the B.A. and C.C. drafting the conditions under which such an event could take place. The association gave their consent and issued conditions."[6]
"It is regarded as highly unlikely that anyone will ever dominate the game to [Joe Davis'] level again" - I had a browse through Everton's 1986 book looking at pages where the index had entries for Davis, and couldn't find a suitable source for this. It's now 35 years since that book was published, so I'm not sure that it could still be used to support such a statement (unless qualified) anyway. FWIW, I believe that it is highly unlikely; and it's the sort of thing that I think Everton (who remains in awe of Davis) could have written about. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:49, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Sources
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Possible snooker origins
(Just a few thoughts):
Peter Ainsworth argues that the game evolved more from the game of pyramids (called "shell-out" when more than two players were involved), rather than from the game of black pool. This is because in pyramids the players shared the same cue ball as snooker does, and the 15 reds were placed in a pyramid formation, in the same position as in modern snooker. But in black pool, no single cue ball is used, and it does not have a pack of reds. -
Ainsworth, Peter (10 October 2017). "The Origin of Snooker: The Neville Chamberlain Story" (PDF). p. 2.
Page 5 of above also gives reference to the game of pyramids and added were "the other coloured balls", and the simple rules for the game then prepared in 1882 at Ootacamund.
The following article gives 24 rules relating to "a new game called snookers". It was printed in a newspaper on 10 October 1884. Rule no.2 is interesting (at least to me anyway):
"Billiard players have been promised a new game called "Snookers", which we are assured is to supplant Pyramids and Pool ere long.
The rules are given below: ...
2. - 15 red balls are placed on the table as in "Pyramids", and four "coloured" balls shall be placed, thus:
the yellow ball on the centre of the D, the brown ball on the centre spot, the green ball on the pyramid spot at the apex of the triangle of red balls and the blue on the billiard spot. The player plays with the white ball and from the D when in hand.
The value of the balls shall be: Red 1, Yellow 2, Green 3, Brown 4, and Blue 5.... -
"A New Game of Billiards". Civil & Military Gazette. Lahore: E. A. Smedley. 10 October 1884. p. 6 – via British Newspaper Archive.
Reddog78 (talk) 16:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- In a letter written by Captain F. Sheldrick from Calcutta, dated 2 February 1886, he describes playing a game called "snookers" at Rangoon. It had 15 reds as above, and the Yellow, Brown, and Green in the same places as above "put on the spots up the centre of the table." But instead of the blue ball being on the billiard spot, the black ball was, as it is in snooker today. -
- {{cite web |last=Ainsworth |first=Peter |url=https://snooker-forum.com/TheOriginofSnooker.pdf |title=The Origin of Snooker: The Neville Chamberlain Story |date=10 October 2017 |page=1}}
- Thank you. Reddog78 (talk) 17:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- It may not be encyclopedic (i.e., it may be WP:INDISCRIMINATE) to attempt to catalogue every minor variant of ancestral versions of the game that were informally played among some British officers in India. Not feeling strongly either way about it, just suggesting it needs consideration. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. Of course I know what you mean with regards to cataloguing every minor variant of the game. I just find it interesting that's all, to compare the variants to modern snooker and find the similarities. Reddog78 (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Back in the day, when I was collecting rulebooks, I considered doing a "History of eight-ball" article that was going to cover all the rule changes over time, but gave up on it as a difficult task and of questionable "encyclopedic-ness". For snooker, it might be more pertinent to cover the origin variations, without poring over all the rule changes in the later game. But someone might disagree and want to cover all those, too. Not trying to impose my will. Just kind of asking the question. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. Yes origin variations might be better rather than rule changes. And generally all I have been typing about about above is the game of pyramids, and then different coloured balls were introduced to the reds down the centre of the table at various times. Regards. Reddog78 (talk) 18:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Right. Overall I lean toward it being pertinent, though I'm wondering whether the history section might not better split out to a History of snooker side article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Or it could just be summarised in the history section of this article, maybe something like:
- "By 1884, four coloured balls had been added to the fifteen red balls: In the order of sequence of yellow, green, brown and blue, each ball was placed on one of the four spots down the centre of the table, beginning with the yellow on the middle of the D spot which was worth two points. And ending with the blue on the billiard (black) spot, which was worth five points. A variation was played in 1886, whereby the black took the place of the blue ball."
- The only reason I quoted the 1884 rule (which by the way are the earliest rules of snooker I can find on the internet), is because I find it interesting regarding the fact that the yellow, green, brown, and blue are all each worth exactly the same amount of points that they are in today's game. And the highest numbered ball was the one on the billiard spot as it is today too.
- Thank you. Reddog78 (talk) 06:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, that is kind of interesting, actually. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Right. Overall I lean toward it being pertinent, though I'm wondering whether the history section might not better split out to a History of snooker side article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. Yes origin variations might be better rather than rule changes. And generally all I have been typing about about above is the game of pyramids, and then different coloured balls were introduced to the reds down the centre of the table at various times. Regards. Reddog78 (talk) 18:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Back in the day, when I was collecting rulebooks, I considered doing a "History of eight-ball" article that was going to cover all the rule changes over time, but gave up on it as a difficult task and of questionable "encyclopedic-ness". For snooker, it might be more pertinent to cover the origin variations, without poring over all the rule changes in the later game. But someone might disagree and want to cover all those, too. Not trying to impose my will. Just kind of asking the question. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. Of course I know what you mean with regards to cataloguing every minor variant of the game. I just find it interesting that's all, to compare the variants to modern snooker and find the similarities. Reddog78 (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- It may not be encyclopedic (i.e., it may be WP:INDISCRIMINATE) to attempt to catalogue every minor variant of ancestral versions of the game that were informally played among some British officers in India. Not feeling strongly either way about it, just suggesting it needs consideration. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC)