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:: How so? CNN is a reliable source: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/21/us/new-york-police-officers-shot/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 2 NYPD police officers 'assassinated'; shooter dead]. [[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 17:41, 21 December 2014 (UTC) |
:: How so? CNN is a reliable source: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/21/us/new-york-police-officers-shot/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 2 NYPD police officers 'assassinated'; shooter dead]. [[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 17:41, 21 December 2014 (UTC) |
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== Cwobeel == |
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Cwobeel asserts that the "Shooting" now re-named "Chronology of incidents reported by police" violates NPOV and should not be in a section describing the shooting itself. Cwobeel seems to be indicating that this is "police lies" and says that undisputed records are "[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Michael_Brown&diff=639070170&oldid=639069697 pushing a POV]". Cwobeel as admitted a bias to Gaijin42 on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gaijin42&diff=prev&oldid=639008548 Gaijin42's talk page], but I fail to see why Cwobeel needs to continually push extremes and conspiracies as facts. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Michael_Brown&diff=prev&oldid=639070834 Cwobeel added this clarification tag] to this section |
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{{talkquote| The ''{{nowrap|St. Louis}} Post-Dispatch'' said that if the timing was accurate, between a witness's Twitter post<nowiki>{{clarify|date=December 2014}}</nowiki> and the police dispatch, it would mean "less than 61 seconds had passed after the dispatcher acknowledged that Wilson had stopped two men".}} |
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The St. Louis Post Dispatch is the one providing this, but is it not sufficient context? Do we need to link "Twitter"? The unnamed witness who became an unwitting data point in the timeline? Cwobeel seems more concerned with trying to advance these conspiracies and attacks against authority than actually reflect the situation or the sources covered. Cwobeel is actually reinserting the very tedious and confusing "chronology" aspect despite the existence of a page dedicated to it: [[2014 Ferguson unrest]]. Despite having previously discussed the reintegration of the timeline "Reactions" and the problems of this "by chronology" the article is becoming again very confusing and difficult to parse. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 18:32, 21 December 2014 (UTC) |
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POV Issues Regarding Controversy Section
The "shooting" section is way too difficult to follow. WHEN was the first shot fired? I mean, is there an actual time that Wilson says he first fired at Brown> Also, it says "an unidentified officer" arrived at the scene? How is this possible that after the grand jury proceedings this officer is STILL unidentified?
I pretty much agree with everything that TParis wrote at ani. This article has NPOV issues. The article relies too heavily on the opinions of non-notable commentators and their criticism. The article is also littered with weasel words and phrases like "some legal experts" and terms like "asserted" and "claimed", which are all discouraged by MOS. The controversy section for the grand jury hearing is a prime example of undue weight with the amount of criticism in that section. That table really needs to go too, what is the significance of having that, it's not even true. These jurors were a typical grand jury that were conducting typical grand jury business, doing exactly everything listed in the first column, before Wilson's case was given to them, there's no mention of that in the table. The criticism in Wilson's section has weasel phrases like "sources reported" and "other discrepancies" without defining who the sources are or what the other discrepancies are. It also provides no context at all either, like the fact that the grand jury was made aware of these inconsistencies before Wilson even testified. There just seems to be a lot of cherry-picking sources to negatively portray Wilson, law-enforcement officers, prosecutors and the grand jurors. Isaidnoway (talk) 02:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the reason for at least one occurrence of "some legal experts" is that the source says "some legal experts". Obviously we can't say it in Wikipedia's voice, so are you suggesting it should be left out of the article because the source declined to identify the legal experts? I would disagree. As for "other discrepancies", if those were elaborated it would be attacked as undue weight, so it appears there's no way to include such material at all. It's either undue weight or weasel words. I'll abstain from discussion about the table for lack of competence in that area. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 02:28, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- First, this has almost nothing to do with Gaijin42's post in #More terse summaries in the witness accounts and I've refactored it into a new section (if not, go ahead and undo it). I disagree that this article has NPOV issues. Notability does not apply to content, and we should instead be looking at due weight. In this case, it seems that the majority of opinions are biased against Wilson, the prosecution team and the grand jury, which is why it's reported so heavily in the article; unless it's out of proportion, there shouldn't be anything wrong with this. Sources that argue to the contrary are present; if there are others, they should be included to keep due weight. The "some legal experts" phrase is a leftover from the LA Times article, which provided a number of legal opinions. While out of context it may seem like a weasel phrase, the rest of the section references by legal experts mentioned in the source by name, so it really isn't a weasel phrase. Assertions and claims are only weasel words when implying a point is inaccurate, which is hardly the case here. The table is sourced to NYT, which is why we have it. I don't see what's the problem with having it here, maybe you could clarify? The other two instances are poorly paraphrased: the "sources reported" is actually the Huffington Post's analysis, but the analysis that went into their article was cut out of ours so that'll have to be reworked; there's only one discrepancy reported in the CNN article, so I went ahead and reworded that phrase. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be blatant cherry-picking of POVs as far as I can tell. --RAN1 (talk) 03:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Once you have summarized and presented information to the reader in an encyclopedic tone - following that up with an endless stream of cherry-picked opinions of non-notable commentators is undue piling on. I completely agree that the majority of the reporting is negative against Wilson and the other entities involved in this case, but that doesn't mean we pack as many negative opinions that we can into a section, or the article, and still claim it's NPOV, because that's not neutral. We should be summarizing and including the most notable opinions or academic opinions, instead of being a depository for negative opinions that don't really impart any encyclopedic information to the reader. The weasel phrases "some legal experts" and "sources reported" is exactly that - weasel phrasing - and should never be used in this article, especially when there are more than enough legal experts identified by name offering legal opinions. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- I really don't think the opinions are cherry-picked unless we're missing pro-Wilson/prosecutor references, and notability really doesn't matter for sources. I took a closer look at the article though, and I noticed that we're quoting a lot of the opinions directly, which is probably compromising impartial tone. We should neutrally summarize the arguments instead of quoting them, and I think that should fix the POV problem. Btw, "some legal experts" isn't a weasel phrase when used in the header or (especially) when the legal experts are clarified after the fact. Using that phrase should be ok. "Sources reported" is weasel phrasing, and I'll take the time to reword that sentence later today. --RAN1 (talk) 19:33, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
P.S. And now my refactoring's a moot point. Whoops. --RAN1 (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Once you have summarized and presented information to the reader in an encyclopedic tone - following that up with an endless stream of cherry-picked opinions of non-notable commentators is undue piling on. I completely agree that the majority of the reporting is negative against Wilson and the other entities involved in this case, but that doesn't mean we pack as many negative opinions that we can into a section, or the article, and still claim it's NPOV, because that's not neutral. We should be summarizing and including the most notable opinions or academic opinions, instead of being a depository for negative opinions that don't really impart any encyclopedic information to the reader. The weasel phrases "some legal experts" and "sources reported" is exactly that - weasel phrasing - and should never be used in this article, especially when there are more than enough legal experts identified by name offering legal opinions. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't think there was blatant cherry-picking of POVs, but I think there was a desire to represent a greater variety of opinions than was necessary. There are so many opinions from so many sources that it would be much more helpful to avoid arguing why a given source is acceptable despite having issues like weasel words and unnamed sources. We could simply choose sources that don't do that.
In general, I objected to the inclusion of journalists' opinions about the legal issues because there were also several published opinions from real lawyers about the legal issues. In the point where there was a formal statement from the ACLU and an analysis by the Huffington Post, the first source was a much better choice than the other. Roches (talk) 16:11, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
RFC
Since the above discussion keeps running around in circles :
The grand jury Controversy section currently* consists of 18 quotes/opinions plus the table.
- Should we keep quotes, or move to a more prose style summary
- If kept as quotes, should the number of quotes be reduced
- Or a summary plus a small number of representative quotes
- Should the table be kept, or moved into prose
* The current version may differ from the version when this RFC started.
Survey
- Move most quotes to summary style keeping only most 2-3 most notable/important voices as quotes.
Keep table.IF WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV is controlling, reduce number of quotes/opinions as currently WP:UNDUE Gaijin42 (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Convert table to prose per Bob's excellent point that doing so allows us to avoid the WP:SYNTH issue while presenting more accurate information. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- See the subsection Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 06:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Convert table to prose per Bob's excellent point that doing so allows us to avoid the WP:SYNTH issue while presenting more accurate information. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- This section needs an opening paragraph that gives a clear and concise overview of the nature of the controversy, convert table to text and summarize salient points, reduce amount of legal/academic opinions, remove all weasel phrasing. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Summary with representative quotes, keep table without charges row - Not most notable quotes, just representative of author opinions that can be included in as neutrally-worded as possible. We have people to attribute to, so undue doesn't apply. Table should be kept
with charges row removed since it isn't consistent with grand jury transcript.--RAN1 (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC) Summary with representative quotes, keep table as isConvert to prose - The summary does not need to represent a false balance as, if the prevalent opinion as repressed in its reporting is negative, we should not hide that fact per NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)- Use minimal quotes and emend the table to accurately state that the charges were presented to the grand jury. Collect (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Use minimal quotes and emend table as per Collect. Quotes in this case should not be "representative." Summarize material included in quotes instead wherever the exact word-for-word nature of the quote does not make such summary difficult. If there is clear reason for doing so, it would certainly be possible to include any quotations deemed truly necessary in the individual citations for the summarized material. John Carter (talk) 17:14, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Summarize the quotes and replace the table with text — See the subsection Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 06:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Summarize the quotes and replace table with text - Per: WP:QUOTEFARM and removing table fixes WP:UNDUE issue of the display. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:06, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Summarize the quotes and replace table with text - It will make things much easier for the reader to parse the text and understand the issues if we do these things. Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Replace with prose. Use as source material only quotes from notable people who have specific knowledge of the field, with an emphasis on those from MO. Clearly explain why this is different than the majority of grand jury hearings. Do not criticize the system by criticizing the way this case was handled, because it was not handled in an unusual way according to the legal practices in that jurisdiction. Roches (talk) 15:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Threaded discussion — POV Issues Regarding Controversy Section
Table Charges Row
- Here's the charges row of the table.[1]
Typical grand jury | Wilson's case | |
---|---|---|
Charges | Prosecutors presents a range of charges and ask grand jury to indict. | No recommendation to charge Wilson. |
It has the false implication that the Wilson prosecutor didn't present a range of charges. The NYTimes article [2] made the same false implication in its table. If it was intentional on the part of the NYT author, it would be a lie by omission. [Note added 16:45, 12 Dec:] If we intentionally keep it, it would be a lie by omission on our part. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:26, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- red herring. The sentence needs to be read in toto: "Prosecutors presents a range of charges and ask grand jury to indict". McCullough did the former, but not the latter, which is the point that NYT is making. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Then say that more explicitly, as the table reads as if they did neither. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Actually, as is we can't say it explicitly because the NYT article didn't. WP:NOR We would have to change the in-text attribution from "According to the The New York Times" to "According to the The New York Times" except as indicated", then give an inline citation at the item, for the source that said he presented a range of charges. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- BTW, we wouldn't have to go through these contortions if we summarized the table in text instead of using the table form, which takes up an excessive amount of space compared to a text summary. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:20, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Then say that more explicitly, as the table reads as if they did neither. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Table must state "Range of charges presented to grand jury which did not decide to charge Wilson" as being accurate here. Else we imply in Wikipedia's voice that the charges were not presented to the grand jury. The table currently inaptly implies that the Wilson grand jury was not typical, and by not mentioning that the charges were presented, implies that charges were not presented. Collect (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've modified the charges row so that it puts the emphasis on the word "ask". Here is a copy below [3]:
Typical grand jury | Wilson's case | |
---|---|---|
Charges | Prosecutors ask grand jury to indict based on a range of charges. | McCulloch did not recommend any of the charges against Wilson. |
- I'm thinking this should clarify the wording, looking for other opinions. --RAN1 (talk) 20:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Typical | Wilson's case | |
---|---|---|
Specific charge | A prosecutor usually provides a charge or range of charges, then asks the grand jury to indict based on those options. | The St. Louis County prosecutor, Robert P. McCulloch, did not recommend a charge or charges against Officer Wilson. |
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've replaced it with "McCulloch did not recommend any of the presented charges against Wilson." That should resolve the issue. --RAN1 (talk) 06:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Btw, I'm going to source vox as a matter of sourcing the charges presented. If this still looks like NOR, go ahead and suggest alternatives. --RAN1 (talk) 07:03, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- RAN1, It suggests that the charges were presented by someone else, or may be confusing because "recommend" and "present" are similar. That's one of the reasons why the source was a problem. Also, it's OR because the Vox article wasn't making a comparison with a typical grand jury. A possible improvement that is clearer for comparison in various ways is, "The prosecutor provided a range of charges for the jury to consider but didn't ask the jury to indict." However, without a source that uses this in a comparison with a typical grand jury, it would be OR too, although there is WP:IAR. In any case, note how this was easily handled in the Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, you're probably right on the OR part. That said, writing it in prose form would also be OR as it's mainly the synthesis of information that's violating OR, so ultimately this doesn't work out. --RAN1 (talk) 17:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- RAN1, No, the proposed version wouldn't be synth because it would only use the NYT article, not the Vox article. The proposed prose handles it by mentioning the differences, not the similarities. The differences between a typical grand jury and the Wilson grand jury was the point of the NYT's table. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, you're probably right on the OR part. That said, writing it in prose form would also be OR as it's mainly the synthesis of information that's violating OR, so ultimately this doesn't work out. --RAN1 (talk) 17:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- RAN1, It suggests that the charges were presented by someone else, or may be confusing because "recommend" and "present" are similar. That's one of the reasons why the source was a problem. Also, it's OR because the Vox article wasn't making a comparison with a typical grand jury. A possible improvement that is clearer for comparison in various ways is, "The prosecutor provided a range of charges for the jury to consider but didn't ask the jury to indict." However, without a source that uses this in a comparison with a typical grand jury, it would be OR too, although there is WP:IAR. In any case, note how this was easily handled in the Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
There is no mention of the prosecutor asking for an indictment in the NYT article, so it's OR as far as I know. I've made my best effort to focus on the difference in the table as well. Still, I decided to move the Vox sourcing to outside of the table since you were right about the synth. Let me know what you think. --RAN1 (talk) 18:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Could you clarify your comment, "There is no mention of the prosecutor asking for an indictment in the NYT article, so it's OR as far as I know."? Quoting the excerpt from NYT that you're referring to might help.
- In your latest version, "McCulloch did not recommend any charges against Wilson.", what is that supposed to mean? Does it mean that he didn't ask for an indictment, or that he didn't present any charges for the jury to consider, or what?
- BTW there were 5 charges, not 4. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- The only mentions of the prosecutor in the NYT is comments about the grand jury not indicting and which witnesses were "most credible", as well as his release of evidence and the grand jury leeway on evidence. Then it's the table. There's no mention of him not asking for an indictment, which makes that prose (if sourced to the NYT) OR in that regard. What I put in the table means he didn't ask the grand jury to indict on any charges, which seems to correspond to the implications provided in the article. The Vox statement clarifies that charges were presented. I've only seen four charges in media and in the released grand jury transcript, what was the 5th charge? --RAN1 (talk) 18:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Re "There's no mention of him not asking for an indictment, which makes that prose (if sourced to the NYT) OR in that regard. What I put in the table means he didn't ask the grand jury to indict on any charges.” — What’s the difference between “not asking for an indictment” and "didn’t ask the grand jury to indict on any charges”?
- The only mentions of the prosecutor in the NYT is comments about the grand jury not indicting and which witnesses were "most credible", as well as his release of evidence and the grand jury leeway on evidence. Then it's the table. There's no mention of him not asking for an indictment, which makes that prose (if sourced to the NYT) OR in that regard. What I put in the table means he didn't ask the grand jury to indict on any charges, which seems to correspond to the implications provided in the article. The Vox statement clarifies that charges were presented. I've only seen four charges in media and in the released grand jury transcript, what was the 5th charge? --RAN1 (talk) 18:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Re "I've only seen four charges in media and in the released grand jury transcript, what was the 5th charge?" — ABC and USAToday reported there were five charges. In the grand jury transcripts, Vol. 24, p133–134, there was 1) Murder in the first degree, 2) murder in the second degree, 3) voluntary manslaughter , 4) involuntary manslaughter in the first degree, 5) involuntary manslaughter in the second degree.
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're correct about the charge count. There was a page break in the grand jury documents that...um...disrupted my ability to count to 5. As for the other part, there is no difference, you're correct. If the survey keeps shifting toward text, your prose version should be ok policy-wise. There is a formatting issue I want to bring up: Can we drop the parentheses and rework the data into the sentence? Dropping in (A vs B) 3 times into a sentence makes for a really awkward display of data. --RAN1 (talk) 07:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Proposal to replace table
Replace this table that is currently in the article:[5]
Typical grand jury | Wilson's case | |
---|---|---|
Length of proceedings | One day or less. | Twenty-five days over three months. |
Charges | Prosecutors ask grand jury to indict based on a range of charges. | McCulloch did not recommend any of the charges against Wilson. |
Witnesses | Testimony by a few people, usually investigators who interviewed key witnesses. | Sixty witnesses called to testify, including extensive testimony from investigators. |
Defendant Testimony | Not usual for defendants to testify. | Wilson testified for four hours to the grand jury. |
Secrecy of proceedings | Grand jury activity is secret. Transcripts may be released at a court's discretion. | McCulloch released all grand jury transcripts, photographs and other evidence. |
with the following text:
According to The New York Times, the grand jury proceedings differed from typical ones in Missouri. For the Wilson case, they lasted much longer (25 days over 3 months vs 1 day), the prosecutor did not ask for an indictment, there were many more witnesses (60 vs a few), the defendant testified, and all of the evidence and testimony was released to the public after the defendant was not indicted, where in typical grand juries it is usually kept secret.[6]
--Bob K31416 (talk) 05:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Survey consensus seems to be to keep the table. If it changes though, this looks like a decent draft replacement. --RAN1 (talk) 06:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Replace the distracting table. There is much wrong with the assumptions being advanced, but we do not need a giant table drawing really inappropriate and WP:UNDUE attention. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:49, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Investigatory Grand Jury
If there is consensus to keep the table, then the header titled "Wilson's case" should be re-titled to accurately reflect that this was an "Investigatory grand jury", which is obviously why there are differences. We shouldn't be implying that Wilson's case was handled any differently than other investigatory grand jury proceeding. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- For all intents and purposes, there is no such thing as a investigatory grand jury under Missouri Statutes. Also, Missouri grand juries are usually kept secret and aren't described in that way. Because of both of these issues, the label "investigatory" is simply contentious and contributes nothing of value. --RAN1 (talk) 02:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a typical grand jury under Missouri statutes either. In Missouri, the citizens that are empaneled to serve are simply called a "grand jury".period. My comment is in relation to the labels describing the different tasks they were assigned. The source used for this table described it as a "grand jury investigation", so did other sources USA Today, WaPo. Sources are what we use on WP and that is what my comment was based on. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I used the wording typical because you used the wording typical, but if you're willing to discard it, I'm all for it. Also, the wording "grand jury investigation" is not synonymous with the wording "investigatory grand jury". One refers to the investigation of the grand jury, the other implies that the grand jury was of a different type. The latter is contentious wording (implying that the grand jury operated differently because it was of a different type) and should not be used. --RAN1 (talk) 20:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)- Actually, I never used the wording typical, so that doesn't even matter. --RAN1 (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Investigatory is nothing more than an adjective used to describe the conduct of the proceedings, which in this case was a "grand jury investigation" - per the sources. The table under discussion here is used to highlight how the grand jury operated differently in Wilson's case, which was an investigatory case vs. a typical case, so obviously there is nothing contentious about using an adjective to accurately describe their conduct of a "grand jury investigation". Isaidnoway (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- As noted below, investigatory isn't language that is rooted in Missouri state law or comparisons of grand juries there, since most proceedings are kept secret. Therefore, there's no way to use this language to compare Wilson's case with other grand jury cases in Missouri. Also, describing the grand jury as "investigatory" might be interpreted based on the laws of other states, so it's pretty contentious. This isn't even mentioned in any other survey opinions, so unless an RfC is made specifically for this, there is no consensus for this. --RAN1 (talk) 00:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- I never asserted that investigatory was rooted in MO state law or any other law, but rather it was an adjective in the English language used as a descriptor for purposes of labeling the differences in this table - based on reliable sourcing. So there is nothing contentious or inapppropriate about using a simple adjective in the English language as a term to label the differences in the table under discussion. Don't really care if it's mentioned in other survey opinions, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm certainly not going to open a RfC, and whatever the outcome of the survey is and the consensus is for the table, I'm OK with that as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- As noted below, investigatory isn't language that is rooted in Missouri state law or comparisons of grand juries there, since most proceedings are kept secret. Therefore, there's no way to use this language to compare Wilson's case with other grand jury cases in Missouri. Also, describing the grand jury as "investigatory" might be interpreted based on the laws of other states, so it's pretty contentious. This isn't even mentioned in any other survey opinions, so unless an RfC is made specifically for this, there is no consensus for this. --RAN1 (talk) 00:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Investigatory is nothing more than an adjective used to describe the conduct of the proceedings, which in this case was a "grand jury investigation" - per the sources. The table under discussion here is used to highlight how the grand jury operated differently in Wilson's case, which was an investigatory case vs. a typical case, so obviously there is nothing contentious about using an adjective to accurately describe their conduct of a "grand jury investigation". Isaidnoway (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I never used the wording typical, so that doesn't even matter. --RAN1 (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a typical grand jury under Missouri statutes either. In Missouri, the citizens that are empaneled to serve are simply called a "grand jury".period. My comment is in relation to the labels describing the different tasks they were assigned. The source used for this table described it as a "grand jury investigation", so did other sources USA Today, WaPo. Sources are what we use on WP and that is what my comment was based on. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Not to be a pain in the ass, but it was a sitting grand jury. Debating over this part of the fact seems a bit odd when they sit for terms and it was extended for this case, but no context illuminates this fact in the article. Also, that table is being used to support a major impropriety of all conventional comparisons. I'll not distract the point here, but comparing the mundane to the extraordinary and holding it up as evidence of wrong doing is hilarious when grand juries can take years. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:54, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Treatment of 2015 dates redux
[I pulled this out of the archives to avoid linking to it there. If we wait until this becomes an issue in a couple of weeks, a decision will have to made quickly, and sound decisions are not made quickly.] ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 02:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
For brevity we have omitted the year from most 2014 dates. When we start adding 2015 dates, should we include the year for clarity? Or will it be clear enough until August 2015? ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 15:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think within each section (or depending on length, perhaps paragraph) the first date mentioned should include the year. Subsequent events in chronological order, especially where the dates are within a month or so of the previous date, the year can be omitted, until you get up to 2015, then include the year, then go back to yearless. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- That will be a very tough system to maintain while content is being added, removed, altered, and reorganized. It will also be sufficiently complex that most editors won't understand it without first finding and reading the instructions (i.e., few editors will understand it). ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 16:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think that based on WP:REALTIME, we need to write this article as if it will be read by someone in the year 2025. —Megiddo1013 05:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- At this point I'm in favor of (1) continuing to omit year for 2014 dates except the few exceptions we already have, and (2) including year for all other dates (unless something dramatic happens, there shouldn't be many of the latter). I think a system like Gaijin42 described would be unworkable. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 02:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Real-time will not be an issue within a year or two, because the events will past into history and we can refer to context appropriate for that. Much of the timelines and other issues probably will be converted to prose or integrated and a chronology will take over the entire scope of the article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:01, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm not grasping this REALTIME thing and how it applies to this question. I do know that we can talk about things that happened 50 years ago without specifying a year on each date, provided we have established the necessary context, and I don't see why the 2014 context in this article would change with time. No matter what happens from this point forward, 2014 will always be the year that the shooting occurred. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 08:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'll give an example of WP:REALTIME. "Tomorrow the Grand Jury will convene..." is a WP:REALTIME issue, because "what is tomorrow" will change within 24 hours. Anything like "15 Years Ago Ferguson was" will be invalid because it could be 16 or 17 years ago by the time you read it. The article uses "recently" just once, but provides appropriate context ".... noting that an individual had recently, at 2:12 p.m., ...." which is appropriate per REALTIME. By giving the time, the context is preserved. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm not grasping this REALTIME thing and how it applies to this question. I do know that we can talk about things that happened 50 years ago without specifying a year on each date, provided we have established the necessary context, and I don't see why the 2014 context in this article would change with time. No matter what happens from this point forward, 2014 will always be the year that the shooting occurred. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 08:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
lede narrative
Currently paragraph 2 of the lede starts "Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson were walking down the middle of a street when Wilson drove up and told them to move to the sidewalk. An altercation ensued with Brown and Wilson struggling through the window of the police vehicle until Wilson's gun was fired. "
There is no mention of the robbery until paragraph 4. Since the robbery is confirmed and we now know that Wilson was specifically looking for the suspects in the robbery (though he did not initially recognize Brown & Johnson in that capacity) I think the context of the robbery needs to be moved into that paragraph.
Here is a version I propose, but I am entirely open to other versions that convey similar information
Shortly before the shooting, Brown stole several cigarillos from a nearby convenience store. Wilson had been notified by police dispatch of the robbery and the suspect's description and stopped Brown and Johnson while they were walking down the middle of the street. Wilson did not initially recognize Brown and Johnson as suspects and the initial encounter was for jaywalking. An altercation [...]
That could result in a trim of paragraph 4 where we can now just talk about the video of the robbery and not the robbery itself. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- AFAIK, Wilson's knowledge of the robbery and his identification of suspects is still disputed, as there are contradictions in Wilson's testimony. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with Gaijin42 - opening with "Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson were walking down the middle of a street..." doesn't provide context when Wilson who is not directly responding but in the immediate area of a reported robbery. His knowledge of the suspects is in dispute, but this is not happening in a vacuum. I find it dishonest for a "lead" to state:
"The shooting sparked unrest in Ferguson, in part due to the belief among many that Brown was surrendering, as well as longstanding racial tensions between the majority-black population and the majority-white city government and police.[7]
- Before getting to that whole "robbery incident" - Wilson's alleged knowledge that Brown was a suspect seems unproven and may be part of the federal investigation, but context is important. We do not even need to mention the "assault" (weak as it is) matter because that frames the situation more negatively. Balance in all things. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
FYI:
1. Jackson press conference
Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said six-year veteran Darren Wilson is the police officer who who shot 18-year-old Michael Brown on Friday. Wilson is from the St. Louis area, and has no history of disciplinary action. Jackson also said, in statements around 2 p.m. on Friday, that the Wilson did not know about the robbery at a gas station prior to incident with Brown that lead to his death. […] The Ferguson, MO police chief said the robbery "Was not related to the initial contact" between Wilson and Brown"
2. First interview hours after shooting, Wilson does not make a mention of the robbery, and said that Brown had passed "something" off to Johnson.
3. In grand jury testimony, Wilson referred to Brown's hands being full of cigarillos.
Without passing judgement on the competitive narratives and the chronology, we can't assert in the article as a fact that Wilson identified Brown and Johnson as the suspects in the robbery. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Jackson was not in charge of the investigation and that denial was itself refuted later. Wilson's claim to have identified Brown during the encounter is what is in the grand jury and other documents and is widely reported. It does not "make" it true, but is claimed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I don't believe anyone is suggesting to do so. Is there some tweak you would make to my wording to clarify the state (or not) of identification? I am merely saying that we should mention the robbery, and that Wilson was aware of the robbery and description, and was looking for the suspects. I agree absolutely that it is contested at which point (if ever) he recognized them as the suspects. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, so just make sure that we are not asserting Wilson's viewpoint as a fact. I would also would not want that in the lede using attribution. Best to leave that to the article's body were the competing viewpoints are presented. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I have made the change. I see your issue with initially. I left out recognition all together in the lede. He had the dispatch, he stopped them for jaywalking. there was an altercation. Further detail can wait for the body. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Mmmm. I am still not happy with the edit, because it implies something that is still disputed. Shortly before the shooting, Brown stole several cigarillos and shoved a store clerk at a nearby convenience store. Wilson had been notified by police dispatch of the robbery and the suspect's description, and later stopped Brown and Johnson while they were walking down the middle of the street. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe we should add that there are conflicting viewpoints about the identification of Brown and Johnson? - Cwobeel (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I think it should be re-worded to reflect why Wilson was even in that area in the first place, otherwise it implies he was specifically dispatched to the robbery, he wasn't. He was in that area on another call and according to his statements, he heard the dispatch of the robbery and the suspect's description, and then he encountered the two. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel I wouldn't say "conflicting reports" but saying "it is unclear if" or something I am fine with. I was trying to take into account your earlier issue, but I do note that my version dropped the "for Jaywalking" bit we used to have, which might help clarify. Isaidnoway Its more than his statements that he heard, we have recording of him specifically asking units 22 and 25 if they want help searching for the suspects. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I have made updates to paragraph 2 of the lede to address the concerns. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- I added clarification. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- I removed the sentence "It is unclear when or if Wilson associated the robbery suspect descriptions with Brown and Johnson". Wilson did make it clear "when" in a subsequent interview and in his testimony that specifically addressed this issue to the grand jury. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Isaidnoway Wilson's POV cannot be claimed as objective truth, we describe his claims in his section. The lede needs to be neutral and not relying on anyone's narrative. There are conflicting statements from the police about this. There are perhaps good explanations for those conflicts, but we cannot pretend they don't exist. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Indeed. The sentence needs to go back. We are not describing just Wilson's testimony (which by definition would be self-serving), but the entirety of the evidence and the known chronology of reporting from Ferguson police in the aftermath of the shooting. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- I totally disagree and it is not only Wilson's POV, and if that sentence remains, it will have to be sourced, because it is not neutral to say it was unclear, when it is clear through evidence presented to the grand jury, not only by Wilson, but through the testimony of other individuals as well. And what conflicting statements were there made by those who actually interviewed him and testified before the grand jury. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Indeed. The sentence needs to go back. We are not describing just Wilson's testimony (which by definition would be self-serving), but the entirety of the evidence and the known chronology of reporting from Ferguson police in the aftermath of the shooting. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- The discrepancies are reported in the sections "Darren Wilson's interview and testimony" and also in this source used in the article [7]. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- That source you provided was from August 15. We now know that Wilson did "clear" up "when" he recognized the two as suspects through evidence presented to the grand jury by officers who interviewed him, so even if you want to discard Wilson's testimony as being prejudicial and self-serving, what about the officers who testified as to "when" he became aware, are we just dismissing their testimony altogether. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- We can't re-write history. Surely we have testimony, but we also have media reports after the shooting reporting on police activities, press conferences and the like. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nope, sure can't re-write history. But it's not NPOV to solely rely on "media reports after the shooting", when we now have media reports after the testimony presented to the grand jury that shows a different perspective. So I guess the answer to my question is that we are just dismissing their testimony altogether in favor of "media reports after the shooting". Isaidnoway (talk) 00:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- We can't re-write history. Surely we have testimony, but we also have media reports after the shooting reporting on police activities, press conferences and the like. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- That source you provided was from August 15. We now know that Wilson did "clear" up "when" he recognized the two as suspects through evidence presented to the grand jury by officers who interviewed him, so even if you want to discard Wilson's testimony as being prejudicial and self-serving, what about the officers who testified as to "when" he became aware, are we just dismissing their testimony altogether. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- The discrepancies are reported in the sections "Darren Wilson's interview and testimony" and also in this source used in the article [7]. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Here is another source used in the article (ref #121):
Update at 3:20 p.m. ET: Police Chief: Officer In Shooting Was Unaware Of Robbery. Jackson, speaking at an afternoon news conference, said he wanted to respond to questions raised about the timing of the release of the tape. "This robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown," he said, adding that the "strong-arm" (unarmed) robbery occurred about 10 minutes before the stop that led to the fatal shooting. "It had nothing to do with the stop," Jackson said. Asked why Wilson stopped Brown, the police chief said because Brown and his friend "were walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic." Jackson said he had gotten numerous Freedom of Information Act requests from the media to release the video. "I had to release it," he said. "I had been sitting on it and too many people put in FOIA requests for it and I had to release it," he said."We needed to release that at the same time we released the name of the officer," he said.[8]
- Cwobeel (talk) 00:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Isaidnoway we aren't dismissing their testimony all together, we are saying it is unclear. We aren't taking the media statements as gospel, we are taking multiple unambiguous statements from the police to the contrary. It is unclear. the only person who can say for sure whether or not Wilson made the ID is Wilson, and as you say his own statements are self-serving. Its perfectly reasonable to think that the earlier statements were mistaken (the position I personally hold). But its also perfectly reasonable to think that people will adjust their statements to fit a more favorable set of circumstances (As seen in the AP analysis of the witness statements). You mention the other police reports/statements. Are any of those documented from PRIOR or current to the conflicting statements from the chief? Are any of them from prior to Wilson's first statements to that effect? In any case, how would those other people know what Wilson did or did not realize? Gaijin42 (talk) 00:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Using "unclear" captures this quite well. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- So you're saying that their testimony to the grand jury was unclear about "when" Wilson became aware? Because the way I read their testimony and the follow-up questions, they specifically addressed this issue - just for the sake of clarity - but you say it's unclear? And where are all these multiple statements from the police, as far as I can recollect, Chief Jackson was the only one who made ambiguous statements, and you all seem willing to rely on that source (Jackson) for that sentence, when that source (Jackson) conflicts with testimony given to the grand jury and conflicts with other sources about what Jackson stated when Wilson became aware. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not only Jackson, but Wilson too. Just read the commentary about the discrepancies between his early interviews and the GJ testimony. Note that Wlison had months of coaching by his lawyers before his unchallenged testimony to the GJ. So, any early comments by him or his superiors, is highly relevant. So all we can say now with the modicum of hindsight we have now, is that while it is clear from factual evidence of what he knew, and when he knew it, it is very unclear when he may have or not realize that Brown and Johnson were the robbery suspects. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson did not have months of coaching. The shooting happened on August 9, he testified on September 16. His testimony to the grand jury was challenged on this issue, and the other officers testimony about this issue was challenged as well - in order to provide clarity to the jurors about what Wilson knew and when he knew it. Thomas Jackson's factual accuracy concerning this case has been questioned and controversial from the start - and if you don't believe me, just read the damn article, it says so. At first he says Wilson didn't know, and then a couple of hours later he reverses himself and says Wilson did know. Now usually in cases of instances where there is contradictory statements like this put out, the latter statement (reversal) would supercede the previous statement, thereby making the latter statement Jackson's offical postion on the issue. And if that's true, then it stands to follow that Jackson's position is not "unclear" - Wilson did know. And I'd also add that Wilson testified that he did know and we don't know if the juror's found Wilson's version of the "When and if" of the robbery/suspects story to be credible or not, so we don't know if it was unclear or clear to them either. It should be removed and it's not necessary for the flow of that para and it's also not even relevant to Wilson's primary claim of self-defense. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not only Jackson, but Wilson too. Just read the commentary about the discrepancies between his early interviews and the GJ testimony. Note that Wlison had months of coaching by his lawyers before his unchallenged testimony to the GJ. So, any early comments by him or his superiors, is highly relevant. So all we can say now with the modicum of hindsight we have now, is that while it is clear from factual evidence of what he knew, and when he knew it, it is very unclear when he may have or not realize that Brown and Johnson were the robbery suspects. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
What is telling, is that in the first press conference, Jackson unequivocally said that there was no connection, and gave the excuse that the release of the video tape from the robbery was due to the FOIA request. Hours later he tells the media that Wilson made the connection with the robbery. So here you have it. If there was a connection, he could have said that in the first press conference that the entire country was waiting for, and without resorting to excuses, but he did not. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- You seem to not understand that is was reported as Wilson identified Brown as a suspect initially. This results in mass-hysteria. Jackson refutes this based on some undetailed reasoning, this itself is clarified soon after. While something may not be "proven" to any extent for you, you seem to be hung on the fact that Jackson, who does not appear to be in charge, is infallible and all attempts to explain and provide context are "framing" Wilson's defense. You have little objectivity to anything police related and assume conspiracy over ignorance and error. That is creating a clear problem. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:26, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- While I will refrain from drawing references to certain high-profile events, repeatedly altering your official story is something we have to report, regardless and irrespective of conclusions that may be drawn. This also has nothing to do with the actual discussion here, which is whether we should include the "unclear if Wilson drew the connection" sentence. In this case, I agree with Isaidnoway, we should dump the sentence since it's pretty much a weasel sentence in the lead (.....and I didn't think that was possible). --RAN1 (talk) 10:26, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Dorain versus Dorian
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/ calls the guy with Brown in a different vowel order than I see here, wondering if this is a common mistake and worth mentioning on the page.--Ranze (talk) 22:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's Fox News, I don't think that qualifies as a common mistake. For reference, https://www.google.com/#q=dorain+johnson&nfpr=1 --RAN1 (talk) 22:36, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not to mention that the same source says that Wilson suffered severe facial injuries including a bone fracture near one eye and was nearly beaten unconscious, which now we know was not the case. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson testified that he feared he would lose consciousness from the injuries sustained from Brown, which is not inconsistent with the physical evidence. However, the idea that his eye socket was fractured does indeed appear to be false; I've seen nothing corroborating it and it was not in any of the grand jury testimony. We should rely on latter-day, more accurate sources about the facts. Titanium Dragon (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- What we should do, and have done is to document the chronology of events, including the misleading leaks. It is part of the story, and new information does not release us from reporting prior information. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- No. Do not legitimize and give platform with a chronology of false allegations. Deal with major ones in proper context and do not defend them. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- For minor false allegations, we can disregard them as unreliable. Major ones reported by official sources should be included, but the bone fracture isn't one of em. It's a rumor perpetuated by "a family friend", which, if you're Fox News, can mean just about anything in this situation (for reference, Fox News says it's a source "close to the department's top brass"). --RAN1 (talk) 07:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- You do not know the source of Fox News or whether or not it was some purported "friend" at all. Given that it could have been an officer - a co-worker type - both could be legitimate and describe the same source without issue. It seems almost obvious where the credibility aspect would come from, but such claimants of these disputed factual reports are similar to witnesses who fabricated the entire thing. Well...save the fact that it is perjury to do so in legal context, but not to the news. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, if there's a source with outdated or inaccurate information, the encyclopedic thing to do is ignore it, not write about the fact that there was an article published at one time with outdated or inaccurate information. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- You do not know the source of Fox News or whether or not it was some purported "friend" at all. Given that it could have been an officer - a co-worker type - both could be legitimate and describe the same source without issue. It seems almost obvious where the credibility aspect would come from, but such claimants of these disputed factual reports are similar to witnesses who fabricated the entire thing. Well...save the fact that it is perjury to do so in legal context, but not to the news. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- For minor false allegations, we can disregard them as unreliable. Major ones reported by official sources should be included, but the bone fracture isn't one of em. It's a rumor perpetuated by "a family friend", which, if you're Fox News, can mean just about anything in this situation (for reference, Fox News says it's a source "close to the department's top brass"). --RAN1 (talk) 07:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- No. Do not legitimize and give platform with a chronology of false allegations. Deal with major ones in proper context and do not defend them. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- What we should do, and have done is to document the chronology of events, including the misleading leaks. It is part of the story, and new information does not release us from reporting prior information. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson testified that he feared he would lose consciousness from the injuries sustained from Brown, which is not inconsistent with the physical evidence. However, the idea that his eye socket was fractured does indeed appear to be false; I've seen nothing corroborating it and it was not in any of the grand jury testimony. We should rely on latter-day, more accurate sources about the facts. Titanium Dragon (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not to mention that the same source says that Wilson suffered severe facial injuries including a bone fracture near one eye and was nearly beaten unconscious, which now we know was not the case. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Fingerprinting
Watching the ABC interview, at around 5:30, Wilson says that after he pulled his gun that Brown grabbed the top of it and twisted it around to aim at the hip or leg of Wilson and then was trying to get at the trigger.
I do not see any mention of the word fingerprint on this article. I would like to know if any official reports mention whether the firearm was fingerprinted. This seems like a key issue in relation to the testimony of Wilson. --Ranze (talk) 22:55, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The detective acknowledged that he had been told that Mr. Brown might have struggled with Mr. Wilson for control of the gun while Mr. Wilson was seated in his police vehicle. So he swabbed the gun for DNA. He explained that he had to decide whether to check the gun for fingerprints or for DNA (other than Mr. Wilson’s), because doing one check would wipe out the ability to do the other. If there was a struggle between Messrs. Wilson and Brown for the gun, the detective said, it was determined they had a better chance of getting results from a DNA test than a fingerprint test. The prosecutor and the detective didn’t get into any results of the DNA testing. [...] There was also some questioning regarding the Ferguson Police Department’s handling of Mr. Wilson’s gun as evidence. The detective said he found the gun stored in an unsealed envelope. He indicated that this wasn’t the evidence-handling procedure used by his department and went into some detail about that. The detective said he couldn’t speak for the procedures of other departments."[9]
- we should add something about this to the article. Thanks for pointing it out. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Added new section Shooting of Michael Brown#DNA evidence - Cwobeel (talk) 04:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Analysis of blood of Brown on gun and on interior of car door
When they mention that the blood of Brown was found in these 2 spots this makes me think they must have DNA tested it to confirm, or at the very least made the assessment via comparing the blood types of the officer and suspect, I do not know if the blood type of either is mentioned in association with the case, could possibly be an interesting detail to include.
I am wondering if we might possible have a more detailed analysis of these blood locations, like a spatter analysis here a CSI could give an estimation of how it got there.
Like for example, when Wilson mentions trying to fire his gun in the ABC interview at 6:30, and he says that it jams, he says he thought it was because the finger of Brown was blocking the hammer from striking the slide. I have heard that sometimes people can cut their hands while firing a gun if holding it improperly so it made me wonder if that was possibly where the blood of Brown came from.
I would like to know if the coroner found any cuts on either hand of Brown which might have been caused from the gun, and if there is a way to know whether gun on the uniform or the gun or the inner door could have come from a bleeding hand that was cut by the moving parts of the gun as Wilson tried to fire it.
A second explanation (or perhaps both contributed, dunno) would be when Wilson mentions his third trigger pull finally resulting in a shot hitting the door and shattering the glass of the rolled-down window. I am wondering if we know whether the blood came from a cut from a shattered window or a cut caused by a finger caught in the moving parts of the gun, or some other explanation.
A spatter analysis (think Dexter) might presumably inform us if this or some other explanation is likely, based on whatever patterns the blood took when analysed in these 3 locations. --Ranze (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Wilson had scratches at his hairline and a bruise on his face, according to police and the doctor who treated him. Wilson’s DNA was not found under Brown’s fingernails or on his right hand. Wilson’s DNA was detected on Brown’s left palm. […] Brown’s DNA was found on the left thigh of Wilson’s pants. Brown’s DNA was also found on the gun. While inspecting the gun, a detective observed a reddish substance, consistent with blood, on the slide and frame of the firearm. Brown’s DNA was also found on the inside driver’s door handle of the police SUV. Investigators said they could swab for DNA or dust for fingerprints but not both. One test would destroy evidence from the other.[10]
- We ought to add some of his as well. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Blood spatter analysis is not useful for much, I kind of doubt it's going to tell us anything other than that Brown was more or less in the cruiser when the first shot hit. Also, slide injuries are basically like a ten pound mechanical shear slicing off part of your skin. Blocking the gun's hammer would not cause an injury. And I'm not aware of any slide injuries on the hand. So I don't think there is any basis for thinking that Brown's blood in the cruiser came from a phantom hand injury that that medical examiner somehow missed. Ditto for possible phantom glass cuts that I don't think any actual commentators have raised as a possibility. And of course inn any event we would need sources for any kind of speculation of this nature. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
External Links
Much of the External Links section would not survive at a Featured Article Candidates review and should not be included. First, with nearly 300 references - much of the material is just a "video link" to material already covered in the article. This includes the video of the robbery, the incident report, a compilation of witness statements by Huffington Post, 6 video interviews, social media posts, a statements and of course, the documents themselves. I really only think the "grand jury documents" really qualify here per WP:EL.
It is redundant to curate videos and other materials which are cited or included in the sources. Most of these sources are just an external links video gallery that does not provide substantial value to readers that is not covered in the text and its references. I think these should be cleaned up. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and got rid of the interviews and social media. The rest we should go link by link, I'm not entirely convinced we should ditch the observational videos or the press conference link but I haven't looked em over yet either so I'll take the time to do that now. --RAN1 (talk) 07:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Reactions
Timelines in articles as lengthy as this are often redundant and are better served by prose. Currently, many are useless and offer no additional insight that could not be better served in the article already. Do we really need a timeline with entries like:
- August 13 – A fundraising webpage was created for Michael Brown's family.
- A similar online fundraising drive for Wilson achieved its desired goal of US$235,000 within four days and was followed by one for Wilson in association with a tax-deductible charity.
- August 17 – About 150 people protested in downtown St. Louis in support of Darren Wilson....
- September 4 – Attorney General Holder announced that (redundant...)
The timeline is not even maintained and serves little more than a lengthy and segregated list of "statements" by date. It is not appropriate to duplicate and segregate details by time in this article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed, even the international reactions section is closer to what the other reaction sections should be. This'd also be a good chance to include any new reactions. as that timeline's been abandoned since August. --RAN1 (talk) 07:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the integration would be appropriate, it is better to give context without pulling out an independent timeline. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd support bringing that sub section closer to how the International reactions section is laid out. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The NYT table
The controversy section, despite all the fixing, is still the biggest BLP problem in this article, but let's fix the elephant in the room.
- "According to the The New York Times, differences between typical grand jury proceedings in Missouri and Wilson's" - Is a distracting and very biased use of facts that comes off as disingenuous and taken way out of context.
"In 2010, federal prosecutors sought indictments in about 162,000 cases, according to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics. Grand jurors declined to indict in 11 of these federal cases. On a state level, grand juries returned indictments in similar numbers."
"US police officers kill approximately 1,000 citizens per year in the line of duty. On average, four officers are indicted for causing gun-related deaths on duty every year, according to a study by Bowling Green State University in Ohio.
In one sample, grand juries in Harris County, Texas, haven't indicted a police officer in a decade. Grand juries in Dallas looked at 81 possible cases of police criminality between 2008 and 2012, but handed down only one indictment, according to the Houston Chronicle."[11]
With a little perspective you can see that grand juries rarely indict police officers. Combined with a little more information that grand juries can take years, the secret nature of grand juries with "public officials, officers" and such goes outside the realm of normalcy. With a lot more on the line, Giuliani's comments about using them to determine if it should go to trial makes sense. By many accounts, the grand jury was really normal given circumstances at play. The point by the NYT is being used to advance that the grand jury's length and actions were beyond compare. I have deep issues with that. I suggest that the context be given and the "controversy" table be removed entirely because it is grossly misleading. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 08:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Most of the controversy seems to root in the idea that this is not the way grand juries operate outside of cases in which police officers are charged. The evidence you cited above only goes to show that the controversy is well-justified. I would also like to remind you that there's an RfC open relating to this. If you'll look back at it, you'll see that we have a prose version ready to go up in case the RfC results in a prose consensus. You can help contribute changes to the draft there. --RAN1 (talk) 10:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Are you trying to legitimize an invalid comparison and use it an example as evidence of some wrongdoing? A grand jury is not a rubber stamp on the way to the court house and the entire process drastically changes when a police officer is the subject of the situation. A prosecutor typically does provide great detail and seeks to establish whether or not the case could be successful in court. What the actual section is doing is comparing apples to oranges because it is not a fair or justified representation of like cases. Giuliani mentioned he had a grand jury investigate for three years, I cited a two year one above - many go for months. The only difference is this one went "public". It is deceptive in its charges and witness proceedings. Instead of highlighting and explaining, the entire section is used to pass judgement that states McCullough was grossly abusing power when unbiased legal experts have conclusively rejected the notion that the prosecution would have ever been successful at trial. To show how far the "criticism" is twisted, statements which vindicate McCullough are pulled out of context to condemn. The process deserves criticism, not the result because it was damn typical and almost indisputable given the evidence. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:56, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Personally I am a huge hater of grossly misleading WP prose, especially if it does not track cited sources, or offers unsubstantiated opinions, or offers substantiated opinions of people who are non-notable or not experts on the given subject. Do any of the above apply? Does the disputed material imply that a living person has engaged in professional misconduct or dereliction of official duties? If so, please remove it without further discussion. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- It definitely gives that stance because the entire table is a undue and very misleading comparison being used to attack McCullough. It does have a BLP issue because of its use and structuring. Factual data is easy to abuse and this case is quite clear, many other New York Times pieces have gone to fair lengths to explain the situation. In fact the source I note above makes it obvious that this grand jury proceeding is actually not that unusual save its public release when it concerns officers. Actually, given everything it was quite expedited. I'll remove it because you do make a good argument that it is an issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please don't. We are still discussing this, and there is no BLP violation whatsoever. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is and was. I removed it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please follow WP:BRD, as you promised. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- You don't appear to be supported by consensus or by policy, why do you think you are justified in reverting? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please follow WP:BRD, as you promised. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is and was. I removed it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please don't. We are still discussing this, and there is no BLP violation whatsoever. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- It definitely gives that stance because the entire table is a undue and very misleading comparison being used to attack McCullough. It does have a BLP issue because of its use and structuring. Factual data is easy to abuse and this case is quite clear, many other New York Times pieces have gone to fair lengths to explain the situation. In fact the source I note above makes it obvious that this grand jury proceeding is actually not that unusual save its public release when it concerns officers. Actually, given everything it was quite expedited. I'll remove it because you do make a good argument that it is an issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- We ought to follow the sources. Any neutral observer would notice that the proceedings were nothing close to the norm. This aspect of the proceeding is widely covered and we should not have any problems establishing due weight. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a neutral observer and I didn't notice anything out of form. Actually one of the biggest complaints protesters had was that the normal process wasn't being fast-tracked for purposes of 24/7 news cycle coverage & because people were impatient for their pound of flesh. Anyway I would say that charges of grand jury manipulation or irregularity are going to require exceptional sourcing. And, as implied, we can't go around misrepresenting the sources or making up stuff to attribute to them. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- How exactly are we misinterpreting The New York Times? There is substantial coverage on the controversial manner in which the prosecutor's office handled the case, and not reporting that would be a violation of NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- If the table is being used to imply a conclusion that the source itself does not reach, then it is being used improperly, in violation of multiple core policies, and should be removed. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:43, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm something of a neutral observer too. I'm not American, and I don't follow the news about the story except with respect to this article. The process wasn't fast-tracked, BTW, because grand jury members are empaneled for a set period of time (3 to 6 months or so), and they continue working their regular jobs. That also explains why they weren't sequestered. It's also not being considered, in my opinion, that the jury is entirely responsible for making their decision, and that these people were already the county's grand jury before the shooting occurred. No matter how much anybody tried to influence them, the jury was still made up of adults who were completely free to make whatever decision they wanted to make. Roches (talk) 15:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with FCAYS - the situation was entirely normal and criticism that it a gross miscarriage of justice (as often it is put) is a fallacious argument. Just like the notion that McCullough to write off the whole grand jury or preliminary hearing choice, this out of context table is used to construct a narrative in direct contrast to established fact and push an agenda. Because it does this to a living person, it is a BLP issue. Essentially it was cherrypicking a NYT section and twisting as far as possible into a statement and banner to attack McCulloch. Ignorance is one thing, deliberate misrepresentation is another. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Clarify, I'm not saying it was entirely normal, just that I didn't notice any serious irregularity and IAAL. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with FCAYS - the situation was entirely normal and criticism that it a gross miscarriage of justice (as often it is put) is a fallacious argument. Just like the notion that McCullough to write off the whole grand jury or preliminary hearing choice, this out of context table is used to construct a narrative in direct contrast to established fact and push an agenda. Because it does this to a living person, it is a BLP issue. Essentially it was cherrypicking a NYT section and twisting as far as possible into a statement and banner to attack McCulloch. Ignorance is one thing, deliberate misrepresentation is another. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm something of a neutral observer too. I'm not American, and I don't follow the news about the story except with respect to this article. The process wasn't fast-tracked, BTW, because grand jury members are empaneled for a set period of time (3 to 6 months or so), and they continue working their regular jobs. That also explains why they weren't sequestered. It's also not being considered, in my opinion, that the jury is entirely responsible for making their decision, and that these people were already the county's grand jury before the shooting occurred. No matter how much anybody tried to influence them, the jury was still made up of adults who were completely free to make whatever decision they wanted to make. Roches (talk) 15:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- If the table is being used to imply a conclusion that the source itself does not reach, then it is being used improperly, in violation of multiple core policies, and should be removed. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:43, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- How exactly are we misinterpreting The New York Times? There is substantial coverage on the controversial manner in which the prosecutor's office handled the case, and not reporting that would be a violation of NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a neutral observer and I didn't notice anything out of form. Actually one of the biggest complaints protesters had was that the normal process wasn't being fast-tracked for purposes of 24/7 news cycle coverage & because people were impatient for their pound of flesh. Anyway I would say that charges of grand jury manipulation or irregularity are going to require exceptional sourcing. And, as implied, we can't go around misrepresenting the sources or making up stuff to attribute to them. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Also note that there is an RFC pending on this issue: Talk:Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#RFC. @ChrisGualtieri: I would expect that you would avoid edit warring, but it seems that you have forgotten the basics.- Cwobeel (talk) 15:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is there a specific policy or guideline (not an essay) that says that NPOV means including every opinion? I really don't interpret "neutral" that way. Roches (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, no personal attacks, don't comment on contributor, and especially don't do so unnecessarily. Also, NPOV requires that many opinions be excluded, especially ones that have not been published in a source. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, I did not break 3RR - I didn't even touch that before. Also, WP:BLP says it is to be removed immediately. As the person who added it - you are the last person to reinsert something pulled out of context to attack a person in an entire section dedicated to attacking McCullough. Roches, NPOV does mean providing balance and context, but WP:RSOPINION, WP:QUESTIONABLE, and WP:BLP give wide latitude for editors to analyze and discard sources with inherent bias in a sensational case. Being removed from the "drama reports" gives that neutrality much easier - there is actually significant issues with the law and the grand jury process which is made and being made - now that the Ferguson situation has moved on. Time gives most people perspectives. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, no personal attacks, don't comment on contributor, and especially don't do so unnecessarily. Also, NPOV requires that many opinions be excluded, especially ones that have not been published in a source. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is there a specific policy or guideline (not an essay) that says that NPOV means including every opinion? I really don't interpret "neutral" that way. Roches (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- On the RFC above, you !voted "Summarize the quotes and replace table with text". There is an emerging consensus on the RFC, so your action to remove the table without summarizing it is disrupting WP:DR. Why not let the RFC run its course, or act on the emerging consensus? - Cwobeel (talk) 15:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- If the table is being used to imply a conclusion that the source does not state, it is being misused. And if that conclusion has defamatory potential about a living person then it is being very seriously misused and no consensus is needed for removal. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:01, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- On the RFC above, you !voted "Summarize the quotes and replace table with text". There is an emerging consensus on the RFC, so your action to remove the table without summarizing it is disrupting WP:DR. Why not let the RFC run its course, or act on the emerging consensus? - Cwobeel (talk) 15:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Lots of policies and guidelines in play here, with room for trouting all around I think. NPOV requires "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". The POV that there was significant irregularity in the process certainly rises to that level. However, the table causes NPOV problems imo, because it unduly emphasizes that one particular analysis (NYTs) and makes it appear to be "official" or in wiki-voice. A paragraph saying "They NYT analysis said..." does not have that issue. The paragraph also allows us to deal with clarifying the facts without running into WP:SYNTH. There is a BLP issue here, and while I personally do not see it as being severe enough to require immediate removal until after the RFC, it has been removed on good faith BLP objections, and per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE should not be restored until there is clear consensus for it, as BLP issues are not subject to normal BRD restoration. As a reminder, we are under DS here, so warring and other issues can result in sanctions. Santa is watching people, be good! Gaijin42 (talk) 15:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for also highlighting the BLP issue, while not extremely severe I consider the misuse of the NYT to be also an issue. This makes three editors seeing the BLP issue. I did not remove it when I was solely of the opinion because I was not sure it was obvious to others. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- All innuendo is unencyclopedic, except for that exceedingly rare case where you've got notable innuendo cited in quotation marks, with textual attribution to both publisher and source. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:08, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for also highlighting the BLP issue, while not extremely severe I consider the misuse of the NYT to be also an issue. This makes three editors seeing the BLP issue. I did not remove it when I was solely of the opinion because I was not sure it was obvious to others. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Per Gaijin, we have agreement that BLPREQUESTRESTORE applies on the table presentation, but we have an RFC with emerging consensus about summarizing the table into a narrative. So, my point is that this can be very quickly resolved by just presenting the NYT viewpoints in narrative form. That would take just a few minutes of work. Any volunteers? - Cwobeel (talk) 16:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Converting it to prose does not resolve the problem, it requires proper context and a "Controversy" section doesn't do much when all you are doing is changing the formatting. Yes, the source says [X], but changing it to X still doesn't resolve the entire issue. If anything, the basic facts were illustrating that the release of public documents and the fact Wilson testified as a witness were clearly unusual elements. This most be conveyed without passing judgement. That's all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- While we in general need to rewrite the controversy section into a summary style per the developing RFC consensus, at the current time we have a collection of reliable sources and analyses. Adding the NYT into that collection is not an issue. You may disagree with the NYT, but they are certainly a reliable source, and representative of a notable POV, even if that POV has issues. I do not see a BLP issue with covering the NYT view as long as it is not unduly emphasized relative to the other views. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. We have an ongoing RFC with emerging consensus. Proposal below. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't object to your proposal below for now. But my interpretation is that the RFC is saying that the section needs to be compressed and further summarized by using less opinions, and combining paragraphs that are essentially saying the same thing. In that eventual state, the paragraph below would probably not survive as is, as it would be incorporated into the higher level summaries. My personal preference would be to resort to some WP:WEASEL wording, but back that wording up with Help:Footnotes that could include the detailed opinions that we have now - perhaps all of them. I'm thinking something along the lines of the example used in Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Bundling_citations Gaijin42 (talk) 16:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. We have an ongoing RFC with emerging consensus. Proposal below. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Conversion to narrative proposal
Here is a proposal to respond to the RFC emerging consensus to convert to narrative: - Cwobeel (talk) 16:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The New York Times presented what they report as differences between a typical grand jury in Missouri and the grand jury proceeding in Wilson's case, including that a typical case takes about one day vs. 25 days over three months, that grand jurors seldom hear testimony from the defendant vs. Wilson testifying for four hours, that grand jury activity is usually secret vs. McCgulloh releasing testimony and evidence, that the number of witnesses is usually a few witnesses, mainly from investigators vs. 60 witnesses being called in Wilson's case, and that prosecutors usually asks the jury to indict vs McCulloch not recommending charges against Wilson.[1]
References
- ^ "What Happened in Ferguson?". The New York Times. November 25, 2014. Archived from the original on November 29, 2014. Retrieved December 1, 2014.
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Feel free to improve upon. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are just further exacerbating the problem here. Instead of reflecting that grand jury deliberations and evidence are typically secret you highlight other "unusual" aspects first. This is improper because its criticism is based on two completely different situations that are run through the same process. In short, it does not provide any context on like cases. That is the problem. The paragraph actually looks even worse than the table because, the table reflected authority in its simplicity. It does not change that out of 1000 deaths approx police deaths, indictments return on average 4 times a year. Additional context into the normally secret world of grand jury proceedings against police officers puts big holes in this simple and misleading summary. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- The Christian Monitor's Bruinius makes quite a similar case to the NYT's presentation. See below. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Heaven's no. Bruinius does not make a similar argument, he makes a completely different and better one. Context is everything, the NYT source you use does not make a distinction between cases concerning police officers in the first place. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:31, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- The Christian Monitor's Bruinius makes quite a similar case to the NYT's presentation. See below. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are just further exacerbating the problem here. Instead of reflecting that grand jury deliberations and evidence are typically secret you highlight other "unusual" aspects first. This is improper because its criticism is based on two completely different situations that are run through the same process. In short, it does not provide any context on like cases. That is the problem. The paragraph actually looks even worse than the table because, the table reflected authority in its simplicity. It does not change that out of 1000 deaths approx police deaths, indictments return on average 4 times a year. Additional context into the normally secret world of grand jury proceedings against police officers puts big holes in this simple and misleading summary. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Replacement part
Given the issue, think it is time to resolve the issue without getting to wrapped up into the "he said X and he said Y" situation. So let's try to resolve it with basic facts from the The Christian Science Monitor source and insert things from there. I suggest something like:
State and federal grand juries overwhelmingly provide indictments except in cases which concern law enforcement officers. Harry Bruinius of The Christian Science Monitor stated that state grand juries returned indictment at similar rate to federal grand juries, citing the US Bureau of Justice Statistics that 11 out of 162,000 federal cases did not result in indictments. Bruinius refers to studies which state that "US police officers kill approximately 1,000 citizens per year in the line of duty [and on] average, four officers are indicted for causing gun-related deaths". Bruinius attributes the low indictments to numerous factors including the deeply held social compact stemming from the pressures of the job to the jurors bias to trust the word of the officers. Critics point out the close working relationship between officers and prosecutors in the legal system and have pushed for independent investigations in these cases.
Not a great starting point, but certainly gives a more balanced approach and new criticism that is not covered in the article while we deal with the NYT in proper context. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sources? - Cwobeel (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- If the source is this [12] there is material you have omitted from it that is quite close to what the NYT says: "But critics contend that this evidence did not undergo rigorous cross-examination by opposing counsel, giving the prosecutors sole control over the shape of the case. " […] "prosecutors took the unusual step of presenting nearly all the evidence to the grand jury – including the testimony of the officers. " […] "Typically, grand juries remain secret. The prosecutor controls the proceedings, and in most jurisdictions, no judge or defense counsel is present. And in the vast majority of cases, the prosecutor only presents one or two witnesses, as well as additional physical or forensic evidence if necessary. This normally takes place in a day or two." - Cwobeel (talk) 17:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Brunius also says that "Because of the close working relationship between prosecutors and police officers, many have called for independent investigations whenever a person dies in police custody." - Cwobeel (talk) 17:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- What I mean is that I don't object to providing context as you suggest, as that is always good practice. But we can't cherry-pick from a source, or avoid presenting viewpoints that seem to be in the majority. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I did point out the issues you highlight, I just summarized it without giving undue attention because other arguments and sources exist. Roughly 40% of this proposed section is describing, without excessive wording, that exact problem. However, you forget the reasons why a grand jury exists and that they can be legally used to see if it is proper to press charges in the first place. Your ordering goes from specific criticism to a broad comparison of all grand juries - it is not an honest comparison. You say do not "cherry pick" from a source, but conclude with such an improper "factoid" devoid of context. As if normal grand juries including deaths by police officers typically take one or two days to resolve - they do not. These issues can take months or years as noted. More importantly less than 1% of all officer-related deaths will be taken to a grand jury and result in an indictment. By even suggesting or allowing the assumption that cases of his nature are decided in 1-2 days by a grand jury is a gross misinterpretation and inexcusable if willful in my eyes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Look, it is quite easy, really. We can add general context for our readers, and your initial try is not a bad start. But we need to present not only the context, but the significant opinions about it. And as the source you provided is almost word by word of what the NYT is reporting, how can you say that the NYT and the Christian Monitor's opinions are not to be included? (if that is what you seem to be arguing for. If that is not what you mean, please clarify.) - Cwobeel (talk) 17:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I did point out the issues you highlight, I just summarized it without giving undue attention because other arguments and sources exist. Roughly 40% of this proposed section is describing, without excessive wording, that exact problem. However, you forget the reasons why a grand jury exists and that they can be legally used to see if it is proper to press charges in the first place. Your ordering goes from specific criticism to a broad comparison of all grand juries - it is not an honest comparison. You say do not "cherry pick" from a source, but conclude with such an improper "factoid" devoid of context. As if normal grand juries including deaths by police officers typically take one or two days to resolve - they do not. These issues can take months or years as noted. More importantly less than 1% of all officer-related deaths will be taken to a grand jury and result in an indictment. By even suggesting or allowing the assumption that cases of his nature are decided in 1-2 days by a grand jury is a gross misinterpretation and inexcusable if willful in my eyes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, could you please provide an example of this alleged cherry-picking or failure to include a majority viewpoint? Note, grand juries don't have cross examination, thus of course testimony before a grand jury has not been subjected to cross. Also, grand juries typically meet once a week and thus are not over after a couple days as this prose implies. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:31, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I am just following the sources, including the NYT and the source suggested by Chris. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, could you please provide an example of this alleged cherry-picking or failure to include a majority viewpoint? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I did already above. Here is the diff [13] - Cwobeel (talk) 17:38, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a talk page diff and I clearly referenced it with "Critics point out the close working relationship between officers and prosecutors in the legal system and have pushed for independent investigations in these cases." - It is suggested wording. But it is not an absolute and I do find faults with it still. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- So, Cwobeel, is it fair to say that your preferred version is also quite problematic because it cherry-picks from the source and fails to present the source analysis tending to suggest that there was, in fact, nothing improper about the grand jury proceedings? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Also it includes: "But critics contend that this evidence did not undergo rigorous cross-examination by opposing counsel, giving the prosecutors sole control over the shape of the case?" These critics do not know that evidence does not get cross-examined by the defense lawyers - that would be a preliminary-hearing and is really bad for prosecution because it allows the defense to do exactly that. It would be the worst choice for the prosecutor and be the worst possible option to take. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- So, Cwobeel, is it fair to say that your preferred version is also quite problematic because it cherry-picks from the source and fails to present the source analysis tending to suggest that there was, in fact, nothing improper about the grand jury proceedings? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:44, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a talk page diff and I clearly referenced it with "Critics point out the close working relationship between officers and prosecutors in the legal system and have pushed for independent investigations in these cases." - It is suggested wording. But it is not an absolute and I do find faults with it still. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I did already above. Here is the diff [13] - Cwobeel (talk) 17:38, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, could you please provide an example of this alleged cherry-picking or failure to include a majority viewpoint? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I am just following the sources, including the NYT and the source suggested by Chris. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Chris : You raise a good point about comparison of all GJ cases to GJ cases involving officer shootings, but that point is WP:OR unless made by a reliable source. I think that POV would be an excellent addition though, if you can find sourcing for it otherwise we have to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE Gaijin42 (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the source is this [[14]. Waiting for Chris to confirm. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, which is why it is not WP:OR. Also, in a response to Cwobeel I made an error. Not all 1000 related deaths by police officers go before a grand jury in the first place, but I do not have the source on hand directly make said distinction, but the source does state: " Q: How many police officers are indicted by grand juries? Very few. According to studies, US police officers kill approximately 1,000 citizens per year in the line of duty. On average, four officers are indicted for causing gun-related deaths on duty every year, according to a study by Bowling Green State University in Ohio." Though this says "gun-related" and has a fault because not all deaths are gun-related. So even still it is not without its faults. This does represent a problem and raise the issue with either untabluated/unknown information or a bias in the source. We need a more direct comparison to be ideal. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- So, are you retracting your proposal? I actually think it is a good start, but we should include both this and the NYT commentary in particular when they agree with each other. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Are you serious? They do not agree and I highlighted a possible source improvement because I found faults with part of the comparison. The comparison can be broken down for you to understand in this fashion.
- NYT = There are many cars but this was a Pagani Zonda R.
- Bruinius = Pagani makes supercars in small numbers and the Pagani Zonda R is one of them.
- That's how big of a difference there is. In this hypothetical, the number of Zonda R's is not given, but at least we know they are made in small numbers and they are distinguished from all other "cars". So it is not "perfect", but it provides a lot of context that NYT. And P.S. do not get me started on the analogy or sidetrack it - this was an illustrative example to show the disparity in your argument. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:08, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Are you serious? They do not agree and I highlighted a possible source improvement because I found faults with part of the comparison. The comparison can be broken down for you to understand in this fashion.
- So, are you retracting your proposal? I actually think it is a good start, but we should include both this and the NYT commentary in particular when they agree with each other. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, which is why it is not WP:OR. Also, in a response to Cwobeel I made an error. Not all 1000 related deaths by police officers go before a grand jury in the first place, but I do not have the source on hand directly make said distinction, but the source does state: " Q: How many police officers are indicted by grand juries? Very few. According to studies, US police officers kill approximately 1,000 citizens per year in the line of duty. On average, four officers are indicted for causing gun-related deaths on duty every year, according to a study by Bowling Green State University in Ohio." Though this says "gun-related" and has a fault because not all deaths are gun-related. So even still it is not without its faults. This does represent a problem and raise the issue with either untabluated/unknown information or a bias in the source. We need a more direct comparison to be ideal. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the source is this [[14]. Waiting for Chris to confirm. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, could you please provide an example of this alleged cherry-picking or failure to include a majority viewpoint? Note, grand juries don't have cross examination, thus of course testimony before a grand jury has not been subjected to cross. Also, grand juries typically meet once a week and thus are not over after a couple days as this prose implies. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:31, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Combining two proposals into one: - Cwobeel (talk) 18:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Harry Bruinius of The Christian Science Monitor stated that state grand juries returned indictment at similar rate to federal grand juries, citing the US Bureau of Justice Statistics that 11 out of 162,000 federal cases did not result in indictments. Bruinius refers to studies which state that "US police officers kill approximately 1,000 citizens per year in the line of duty [and on] average, four officers are indicted for causing gun-related deaths". Bruinius attributes the low indictments to numerous factors including the deeply held social compact stemming from the pressures of the job to the jurors bias to trust the word of the officers. Critics point out the close working relationship between officers and prosecutors in the legal system and have pushed for independent investigations in these cases. Bruinius and the New York Times also reported differences between typical grand jury proceedings and Wilson's case, including that the number of witnesses is usually a few witnesses, mainly from investigators vs. 60 witnesses being called in Wilson's case, that grand jury activity is usually secret vs. McCulloch releasing grand jury testimony and evidence, and that in the vast majority of cases, the prosecutor only presents one or two witnesses, vs. 60 witnesses being called in Wilson's case. The New York Time furthers that prosecutors usually asks the jury to indict, but that McCulloch did not.
- Way to drag Bruinius into statements and opinions that are actually just the basic factoids from the NYT. So not only have you stripped out context you've kept the BLP issues with the invalid comparison which was not okay as a table, but justify it by let's combine them and its "neutral" and somehow not a BLP matter? Compare like cases not the biggest disparity you can find. We can deal with the perception issue separately and without passing judgement. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- @ChrisGualtieri: I don't know where you got the idea that comparing apples and oranges is a logical fallacy, but unfortunately (disregarding the actual fallacy) that is a valid method of analysis. You haven't shown how this actually constitutes a fallacy, much less how the analysis is poorly-sourced. The analysis was pulled verbatim from the NYT with table and all. --RAN1 (talk) 19:26, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Chris, I am really not following your logic. Here are the similarities between NYT and Christian Monitor's Bruinius for clarity:
- NYT: grand jury activity is usually secret vs. McCgulloh releasing testimony and evidence
- Bruinius: prosecutors took the unusual step of presenting nearly all the evidence to the grand jury
——
- NYT: typical case takes about one day vs. 25 days over three months
- Bruinius: This normally takes place in a day or two.
——
- NYT: the number of witnesses is usually a few witnesses, mainly from investigators vs. 60 witnesses being called in Wilson's case. Wilson testifying for four hours.
- Bruinius: in the vast majority of cases, the prosecutor only presents one or two witnesses. Prosecutors took the unusual step of including the testimony of the officers.
——
- NYT: prosecutors usually asks the jury to indict, but that McCulloch did not.
- Bruinius: One reason a grand jury could “indict a ham sandwich” is that a very low bar is required to establish probable cause.
- Cwobeel (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I think I have made my case, and you have made yours. Let's leave some space for others to comment. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Made a WP:BOLD edit, adding the context piece proposed by ChrisGualtieri, and using sub sections to group and differentiate between media and legal analyst's commentary. This may be helpful when we undertake summarizing the viewpoints as previously proposed. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for better illustrating the BLP issues, because now I can attack them more directly because you are conveniently segregating them and making it easier to find and relate to. Also, Cwobeel and Ran1 do not understand what is going on. Also - Ran1 doesn't catch the farce in the Apples and Oranges article and takes it to be serious. This is humorous for the wrong reasons because in all seriousness - the apples and oranges analogy has been used repeatedly by sources, even specifically to highlight these issues. The difference between the NYT table and Bruinius's arguments are so striking that if you cannot understand even after lengthy explanation - I can not help further. I feel like I am speaking another language, but I am beginning to be convinced it is a reading comprehension issue on your part. Do you honestly not understand the differences even after reading both sources? At this point, the needless explanations and re-explanations on simple discussions are becoming disruptive. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately here in the real world I do understand. I get that you think comparing grand jury process on police officers and grand jury process on non-police officers is an apples and oranges argument, but that is exactly what the controversy is about. That fact holds as documented by reliable and verifiable sources. The fact that such a controversy exists is neither contentious nor poorly sourced. --RAN1 (talk) 06:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
unclear if Wilson associated the robbery with the two men
"though it is unclear when or if Wilson associated the robbery suspect descriptions with the two men"
This statement in the lead has been tagged with "citation needed", and as it's an important point, I figured I'd bring up here. My understanding is that from the various statements by and attributed to Wilson, "when or if Wilson associated the robbery suspect descriptions with the two men" is in fact unclear. I'm sure others have a better handle on this than I do and might wish to comment. – JBarta (talk) 01:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- This has been discussed already. I will add the refs. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The phrasing contradicts with what is presently in the body of the article from this source and also this source:
- Later that day, Jackson told CNN and NBC that Wilson did notice that Brown was carrying the cigars as he began driving past them. Jackson said at that point, Wilson "made the connection" that Brown might have been involved in the convenience store robbery.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 03:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, we know that, but there are inconsistencies as described in the sources, starting with the very strong assertions by the Chief of police that there was no connection, only to change his tune a few hours later, following with Wilson's testimony of a male on a black T-Shirt, when Brown was wearing a white shirt, Wilson contradicting testimony about Brown passing "something" to Johnson in his first interview with a detective, changed later to "cigarrillos", and so on. So yes, it is unclear despite the very obvious efforts to tie the two events as a reason for Wilson's use of force. Unfortunately the case did not go to trial, were a prosecutor would cross examine Wilson, so we have to live with what we know now with the hindsight provided by the chronology of events. But we can't assert when and if Wilson made an ID. That is still disputed. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please read this article in its entirety, dated Aug 15 [18]. It includes Jackson's later "correction" and then tell me what you think. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, there is sourcing that contradicts that phrasing and it should be removed, it wouldn't hurt the flow of the narrative if it was removed. As for your assertion that it was a "very obvious effort to tie the events as a reason for Wilson's use of force", you are sadly mistaken. Wilson's justification for use of force was based on Brown sucker-punching him in the face and going for his gun, the fact that he recogniozed them as suspects in a robbery had nothing to do with his justification for use of force. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- (OT: Regarding the use of force, and the "sucker-punching", have you seen the DNA evidence Shooting of Michael Brown#DNA evidence ? Brown had no DNA from Wilson on his right hand; Wilson's DNA was only found on Brown's left palm. In cross, this would have certainly come up, but we had no trial...) Also see this source [19] with discrepancies listed on the forensics related to Brown's hands. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Forensic Evidence that may contradict Wilson’s testimony about the "sucker punch", based on DNA report:
- Palm of Brown’s left hand – Brown, possible Wilson (low probability)
- Back of Brown’s left hand – Brown only
- Palm of Brown’s right hand – Brown only
- Back of Brown’s right hand – Brown only
- Fingernail scrapings/clippings of Brown’s left hand – Brown only, Wilson excluded
- Fingernail scrapings/clippings of Brown’s right hand – Brown only
- I am researching to find a source that covers this in detail. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:29, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Forensic Evidence that may contradict Wilson’s testimony about the "sucker punch", based on DNA report:
- (OT: Regarding the use of force, and the "sucker-punching", have you seen the DNA evidence Shooting of Michael Brown#DNA evidence ? Brown had no DNA from Wilson on his right hand; Wilson's DNA was only found on Brown's left palm. In cross, this would have certainly come up, but we had no trial...) Also see this source [19] with discrepancies listed on the forensics related to Brown's hands. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is sourcing that contradicts the phrasing, and there is sourcing that asserts the phrasing. In that case, we can't use Wikipedia's voice to assert something as a fact, when we have conflicting reports about it. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:54, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, there is sourcing that contradicts that phrasing and it should be removed, it wouldn't hurt the flow of the narrative if it was removed. As for your assertion that it was a "very obvious effort to tie the events as a reason for Wilson's use of force", you are sadly mistaken. Wilson's justification for use of force was based on Brown sucker-punching him in the face and going for his gun, the fact that he recogniozed them as suspects in a robbery had nothing to do with his justification for use of force. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please read this article in its entirety, dated Aug 15 [18]. It includes Jackson's later "correction" and then tell me what you think. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- maybe a way out of it would be to say: There were conflicting reports about
when orif Wilson associated the robbery suspect descriptions with the two men. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)OK, strike when, as it implies a situation or condition that we are certain of.Isaidnoway (talk) 04:17, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- maybe a way out of it would be to say: There were conflicting reports about
- The Daily Mail source is an unreliable, completely biased and factually inaccurate BLP-violating opinion piece. This whole conspiracy schtick is not legitimized by reliable sources because the conspiracy disregards established facts. Considering Wilson is clearly acknowledging the incident in the audio records and this is a good place to start:
"At noon, Wilson reports that he’s back in service from the sick-baby call. He then asks the officers searching for the thieves – units 25 and 22 – if they need him. Seven seconds later, an unidentified officer broadcasts that the suspects had disappeared."
Given the sources Cwobeel has added and hopefully read throughout his time on the article this should be obvious. Wilson responded to the officers looking for the thieves, clearly he is aware of the robbery, but he was not the "responding officer". A discrepancy of a few hours is founded on the accusation that Wilson "got his story straight". I feel that Cwobeel is not being honest and using "breaking news" reports from August 15 to insert a fuss over the situation. This is the whole "eyesocket" issue in complete reverse. Per WP:NPOVT, we should seriously keep this out of the article as it is a major BLP issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Based on the sources we have, I think it should be removed. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
"all from the front"
The lede reads in Wikipedia's voice that: Brown was hit seven or eight times, all from the front. But the evidence is not conclusive, since the "front" of the arms are the undersides in line with the palms, but which would be facing backwards in a person running away. The autopsy also described a grazing wound to Brown's right bicep which could have come from either direction. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I re-added this because the noted source says this explicitly. I've heard some chatter about the possibility of the arm wound coming from the rear, but I was under the impression it was just weak speculation. Granted, I'm not as well versed in the details as many others, but it's an important point and we should do our best to present it as accurately as possible. What are your thoughts? – JBarta (talk) 04:55, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Neutrality tag
Per Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, I am insisting that the tag remain per policy because we have many ongoing and deeply disputed issues with NPOV that are not sectional, they span the entire article and the article is changing rapidly to address it. However, given that dozens of unresolved issues remain, the NPOV tag needs to remain. This is not a banner of shame, but a call to editors that there are issues with the article and it makes the matter transparent to readers. The tag is supposed to remain until these are resolved. These NPOV issues include numerous BLP concerns as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- What's the end game? The tag says don't remove until "the dispute" is resolved. There is no "dispute". There are however "disputes". Disputes that are endemic to ALL contentious articles. The disputes were here before you came along, and the disputes will be here long after you've gone. The way I read it, you want the tag at the top of the article as a permanent expression of your displeasure and you want it there until every issue is resolved in the way you see fit. I think it's no more than a hissy fit and I think it's complete bullshit. – JBarta (talk) 06:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Jbarta - when this article switches over from being a gross violation of NPOV is when it will be removed. Not after all issues, but when the majority are resolved. An article is never "perfect", but the article fails WP:YESPOV in almost every section and in numerous ways. "Avoid stating opinions as facts" - there is a huge amount of this issue. "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts." - plenty of this in the controversy section. "Avoid stating facts as opinions." is also an issue. "Prefer nonjudgmental language." is almost completely ignored in favor of a "we report what they say" attitude which has resulted in numerous BLP violations of which dozens still remain. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- And the tag achieves what purpose here? – JBarta (talk) 06:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- As mentioned, it informs the reader and draws additional editors to the talk page to discuss the issue by further highlighting a problem exists and is actively being rectified. Now, keep calling it a "hissy fit" and "bullshit" if you are so inclined, but when almost every section save the now stripped out "Background" has glaring issues. The tag is appropriate and not the mere placement of it on each of the dozen plus sections to which it applies. If you recall, I came to this page in response to its major NPOV issues and there seems to be no end to it. More eyes on this and the assistance of additional editors capable of resolving the situation is a good thing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- And the tag achieves what purpose here? – JBarta (talk) 06:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, half the readers think it's slanted one way and the other half think it's slanted the other way. So, you don't have to tell he reader it's neutrality is disputed, it will simply reinforce whichever opinion he already has. In other words, in that department you're not doing anyone a useful service. Regarding drawing other editors in.... you will probably get more of the same. More disputes, more charges of NPOV more contentious editing... only with a few more editors dipping their toes into the pool... at least for a while. Then what? You still won't get your way all the time. If editors fight you you'll still think the article is riddled with problems. Then what? Two tags? If you're seeing no end to major NPOV issues, then maybe a large part of the problem is your seeing. – JBarta (talk) 06:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Being combative and attacking the editor highlighting the issues doesn't exactly work well when arguments made in a state of ignorance are used to support the "controversy" section. The Eric Citron argument is false and uninformed in many aspects, but to be blunt every source from November 25 and 26ish are going to be uninformed responses by individuals who did not have the grand jury documents in the first place. The entire controversy section hinges upon reaction based on appearances and not fact. Clearly, NPOV applies. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:14, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
You are acting as a Lone Ranger, and that is just unacceptable. I will be off most of the day, will resume when I can later. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Example section Shooting of Michael Brown#Police
Shooting of Michael Brown#Police has numerous NPOV issues.
- First sentence has use of a quote followed immediately by what could be described as scare quotes.
- According to Belmar... as if Belmar is the origin
- "allegedly" which is covered by WP:ALLEGED.
- "more than a couple" - got to keep that August 10 context flowing for reasons unknown with more quotes.
- Opens with unspecific date with "In August..." when source provides date to highlight Jackson's announcement of Wilson's injury. Proceeds to jump into anonymous and false statements (not declared false by the two sources cited inline) in the next sentence. Continuing lines do not detail injuries at all, but instead provide criticism by the Brown family attorneys and concludes with the release of pictures.
- Next section is a jumbled mess of quotes and a lack of context in complete contrast to the actual matter. Concludes with a lack of context courtesy of a poorly parsed NYT source.
- Section completely forgets that the section is Accounts and police did not provide accounts of the shooting.
This is for starters, and I wasn't even being an ass about it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- @ChrisGualtieri: You are welcome to improve the article, as all articles can be improved, but I don't think it serves the process well to make a blanket statements such as "numerous POV issues". Some of the issues you highlight, can be easily fixed, while others may require a longer discussion. Please respect the editorial process of Wikipedia: discussion, collaboration, compromise and seeking consensus. And not, "you are all wrong and I am right" kind of approach. Editors have pride, and we have worked really hard on this article for months now. New blood is welcome, but your approach seems to be my way or the highway. Please correct me if I am wrong. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- So you want me to "just fix it", but you complain about "fixing it" and that the "changes are without consensus" even when they violate WP:BLP. For someone who complains at changes and complains about discussing of changes you have no grounds to complain now. Please read the policies and stop complaining when numerous editors are agreeing and correcting the BLP problems in the article.
- These other editors include, @Roches:, who highlighted that the paragraph beginning with Ronald S. Sullivan Jr "suggest misconduct in the grand jury hearing. None of them entertain the possibility that this hearing was standard practice in Missouri. This is a problem, because it's suggesting wrongdoing when all it should be doing is making a comment about an imperfect system. These opinions state that something "should have" been done differently without considering whether that was even possible."
- Cwobeel, I am growing tired of explaining this to you - I will soon stop entertaining and responding you unless required. As the person who repeatedly inserts BLP and other non-neutral material into the article the correct response is "I won't do it again" instead of trying to justify the inclusion of WP:FRINGE things like conspiracies sourced to Huffington Post which arguing against established facts as reported by NYT, Time, Washington Post, CNN and others. You actually argued that it was important to preserve the uncertainty of "as it happened" because it proves that the facts "are" in question even after they were not. This is deeply symptomatic of why your edits go against WP:NPOV even when you think they are neutral. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Red herring, yet again.We are not discussing HuffPo anymore, are we?You keep arguing that I am inserting "non-neutral" material, as if there are opinions that are neutral and others that are not, based on your own perception.We don't judge sources about being neutral or not, as all sources have a bias. Now, if you are arguing that some of the sourced used are "fringe", then you need to provide arguments to substantiate that assessment.To your last comment, about my "symptomatic anti-NPOV" characterization, you are not the only editor here striving for NPOV.- Cwobeel (talk) 20:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)- @Cwobeel: @ChrisGualtieri: I'll remind you both that you should be aware that you're on a sanctionable page and have been warned as to the consequences of that. Having a hissy fit over what NPOV issues still need to be ironed out is not a good reason for you two to start explaining grievances at each other, much less go on a policy violation diatribe. Please focus on the article, which has genuine POV issues and is at the very least in need of a rewrite. --RAN1 (talk) 20:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no dispute as to NPOV issues continuing to persist in the article in almost every section. Here and in private numerous editors have expressed concerns. This is seen as one of Wikipedia's worst pages because of its prominence and sensitivity yet clear agenda. Long has the neutrality of this page has been disputed, including by the opinions outside of Wikipedia since soon after the events and including some who are also Wikipedia editors. Things are not perfect, but the criticism of this page for its non-neutral stance has been the subject of concerns both on and off Wikipedia. Correcting it is important and working together to understand and fix it is important. These two things go better when done together, but WP:EVENTUALISM does not apply here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry, but bringing hard right-wing and left-wing viewpoints as http://www.truth-out.org and http://joeforamerica.com/ does not really help your case. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- You have pretty much disregarded what I was trying to say in my last comment. The fact that this article is a mess is not an excuse to act above dispute resolution. While I don't disagree with the idea that this might qualify as a subpar page, this does not justify your response. Please stop. --RAN1 (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no dispute as to NPOV issues continuing to persist in the article in almost every section. Here and in private numerous editors have expressed concerns. This is seen as one of Wikipedia's worst pages because of its prominence and sensitivity yet clear agenda. Long has the neutrality of this page has been disputed, including by the opinions outside of Wikipedia since soon after the events and including some who are also Wikipedia editors. Things are not perfect, but the criticism of this page for its non-neutral stance has been the subject of concerns both on and off Wikipedia. Correcting it is important and working together to understand and fix it is important. These two things go better when done together, but WP:EVENTUALISM does not apply here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Cwobeel: @ChrisGualtieri: I'll remind you both that you should be aware that you're on a sanctionable page and have been warned as to the consequences of that. Having a hissy fit over what NPOV issues still need to be ironed out is not a good reason for you two to start explaining grievances at each other, much less go on a policy violation diatribe. Please focus on the article, which has genuine POV issues and is at the very least in need of a rewrite. --RAN1 (talk) 20:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Deconstructing the controversy section
On November 25 and 26, numerous opinions were advanced by persons responding to the indictment were made and later added to the article. The many of these sources are based entirely on opinions of rumor, speculation or made in complete ignorance of fact. To this date, not all documents have been released, nor has the federal investigation been concluded. Critics of critics is perhaps an unusual way to look at the weeks following the decision, but it is a step removed from what amounts to an appeal based on emotion. No less than three the opinions cited in the "controversy" section represent a deviation from their actual intention: Rudy Giuliani, Ben Trachtenberg and Jeff Roorda. For others, they are taken largely at face value and while the article no longer reflects many of the direct BLP violations sitting as the foundation of the argument - it is still improper to reference a conclusion founded upon assertions of manipulation. Ronald S. Sullivan Jr. makes this assumption. Those like Dan Abrams advance opinion as fact, which goes to the core of WP:NPOV. Perhaps the most relevant and pressing matter is arguments and space given to those who advance arguments in ignorance, but who's words are used to advance the perception that ignorance as the majority view. This again refers to numerous arguments being advanced in the controversy section, by those who have not read the grand jury documents because they had not yet or were just recently released.
I am willing to give some time to the public outcry aspect of the case still given that not even a month has passed since the grand jury returned the decision. However, sources we should be looking for need to be dated in the following weeks of the decision and not in the immediate aftermath. Numerous sources are beginning to take in and reflect on the Brown case with most of the evidence in hand and realize it was not the case public outcry said it was. Criticism of the grand jury often went against the basic definition of what a grand jury does or remained entirely ignorant that a grand jury can indeed be a sort of trial in of itself that is conducted in secret - far from the eyes of a judgmental public. So many of the voices given space and outcry are those who had the least authority and standing to do so, making their emotional, biased, or personal interests known for the sake of contributing to the moment. As the days pass and more information is released it is clear that some witnesses were flawed or advanced outright fabrications - this was not just Brown supporters, but also Wilson supporters. In the words of Michael Smerconish, "The death of the unarmed Michael Brown is a terrible tragedy. While the process by which it was investigated wasn't perfect, the result, warts and all, was just." ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a place for WP:ADVOCACY, you can do that in your blog or your Facebook page. In Wikipedia we follow the sources, and as sources evolve so will this article (and any other article that is based on a recent event). Your arguments since the beginning are all based on an attempt to "right a wrong" (e.g. there was mass hysteria, there were rumors, ignorance of facts by the media, and a perversely narrow interpretation of BLP). But there is no such a thing, as discussed extensively here and in other noticeboards. I disagree with your blanket statement that the entire article violates NPOV and BLP and deserving of a tag. So take a deep breath, and work with me and others to continue improving the article one step at a time. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- The tag will remain per policy until issues are resolved, but if you have issues better stop attacking the editor and start reflecting reality. You are still arguing data from August 15 in clear contrast to all the facts and you are use November 25-26 data from the indictment announcement before the data was released and use very weak opinions which do not hold up. So much so that reliable sources are highlighting and dispelling the arguments with fact. Sorry, but you do not understand where I am on this matter and you cannot begin to comprehend my thinking - accusations of POV when I am adding more criticism and arguments against McCulloch than you were even aware of is a cheap shot and doesn't fool editors. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Don't blame me. Just read your own comments. You are passing judgement on the motivations of sources, how false their assertions are, their attempt to foment mass hysteria, and others personal characterizations of legal experts and commentators, for Pete's sake. If that is not WP:ADVOCACY, then what is it? - Cwobeel (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I thought you were going to stop making replies to me? Actual reliable sources are doing this.[20][21][22][23][24] Though if you insist on using blogs instead, Why Ferguson Officer Wasn’t Charged: A Look at ‘Use of Force’ Doctrine is a good start and highlights Graham v Connor and includes "Prosecutors in police-shooting or police-misconduct cases often struggle to win indictments against police officers, partly because it’s often hard to show that an officer’s behavior was objectively unreasonable, even when the actions lead to tragedy." Please stop using poor sources, this source was from November 24 and it still did a better job of illustrating part of the matter without any grand jury documentation to begin with. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Get a dictionary and look up "chronology", and then you may be able to understand my point. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Facts are facts, a chronology of "things later proven to be false" does not belong here unless it has substantial reason to remain. This is part of WP:NPOV and WP:NPOVT, WP:IRS and WP:V. Also, start trying to refute the arguments raised by the sources. I welcome a critical analysis of the points raised by the reliable sources, but do not give me "opinions portrayed as facts" and tell me its neutral. That is all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Facts are facts, indeed. And opinions are opinions. Look up the instances in WP:NPOV in which there is a mention of the word "fact". What do you see there? - Cwobeel (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Also, the entire section is 100% attributed, so your argument that that these are "opinions portrayed as facts" is fallacious. Opinions are presented in that section for what they are. - Cwobeel (talk)
- Facts are facts, a chronology of "things later proven to be false" does not belong here unless it has substantial reason to remain. This is part of WP:NPOV and WP:NPOVT, WP:IRS and WP:V. Also, start trying to refute the arguments raised by the sources. I welcome a critical analysis of the points raised by the reliable sources, but do not give me "opinions portrayed as facts" and tell me its neutral. That is all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Get a dictionary and look up "chronology", and then you may be able to understand my point. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I thought you were going to stop making replies to me? Actual reliable sources are doing this.[20][21][22][23][24] Though if you insist on using blogs instead, Why Ferguson Officer Wasn’t Charged: A Look at ‘Use of Force’ Doctrine is a good start and highlights Graham v Connor and includes "Prosecutors in police-shooting or police-misconduct cases often struggle to win indictments against police officers, partly because it’s often hard to show that an officer’s behavior was objectively unreasonable, even when the actions lead to tragedy." Please stop using poor sources, this source was from November 24 and it still did a better job of illustrating part of the matter without any grand jury documentation to begin with. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Don't blame me. Just read your own comments. You are passing judgement on the motivations of sources, how false their assertions are, their attempt to foment mass hysteria, and others personal characterizations of legal experts and commentators, for Pete's sake. If that is not WP:ADVOCACY, then what is it? - Cwobeel (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- The tag will remain per policy until issues are resolved, but if you have issues better stop attacking the editor and start reflecting reality. You are still arguing data from August 15 in clear contrast to all the facts and you are use November 25-26 data from the indictment announcement before the data was released and use very weak opinions which do not hold up. So much so that reliable sources are highlighting and dispelling the arguments with fact. Sorry, but you do not understand where I am on this matter and you cannot begin to comprehend my thinking - accusations of POV when I am adding more criticism and arguments against McCulloch than you were even aware of is a cheap shot and doesn't fool editors. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
section duplication
Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Post-decision_analysis seems to largely duplicate in purpose Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Controversy although there are some unique sources in each section. I propose the sections be merged? If two sections are two remain, one possible dividing point would be those commenting on the result of the GJ vs those commenting on the process of the GJ, but the two seem to be mostly intermingled, so I am not sure such separation makes sense. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- It does no make sense to me either, I combined it only to be immediately reverted by ChtisGaultieri. I think that he wants to separate commentary before the GJ decision, from commentary after the decision., based on his personal interpretation that the latter supersedes the former. But that is contrary to NPOV, this article is documenting a chronology of events. This article is not Grand jury decision in the case of Darren Wilson, but the shooting of Michael Brown - Cwobeel (talk) 16:25, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Personally, the controversy section should be removed as it cites a conclusion based on problems of misquoting, blatant racism and manipulation. As much as I do not like using "Persons say X and People say Y" for everything, an intermediate step before returning to pure fact and not opinions need to be done in the interim. Most of the actual and valid criticism against the handling of the case is unambiguous and is not partisan. Removed from the immediate "Firestorm" the facts are indisputable and all sources agree - anything less is bias. I would dare you to try and find objective sources to validate some of these "criticisms". My current favorite, that the defense lawyers did not get to rigorously cross-examine the witnesses. Why? Confuses preliminary hearing with a grand jury proceeding. Second, any argument that McCullough did not need to bring it to a grand jury or those criticizing the choice of a grand jury. Third, attacks that the grand jurors were confused, inexperienced, mislead, steered or overwhelmed into giving no indictment. And reliable sources cover all these supposed "criticisms". From above: [25][26][27][28][29]ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) While I agree with you in result on this situation (combining these two sections), I disagree in reasoning. I believe you are unduly focused on chronology. This article is not a timeline. Certainly some flow of events is important, but in the WP:10 year test, the flow of events is going to be much less important than the end result (for each particular bit of info/section). Every twist and turn and the date that particular information was released or known is not important, unless that dating itself had significant impact. "So and so made a request on date A, complained on b that it wasn't released yet, then finally released on C, corrected/clarified ad D and then commented on at E, F,G" is not adding a ton that could not be summarized much more effectively.
- To the degree that the timeline itself is controversial and a topic of discussion, we should directly discuss that, not try to make the reader infer that by giving unneccesary detail about timelines everywhere. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Good point @Gaijin42:, I raised the issue of the timeline and some of its "data" as having questionable relevancy. The 10 year is actually where I've been trying to work from, but I did not realize WP:RECENTISM has such an argument! I was waiting for the situation to be concluded in the public eye, knowing that participating in the matter during an ongoing situation would likely bias future releases. Cwobeel's chronology argument is just confusing and contradictory to reflect the "as it happened" instead of "as it is". We should keep the timeline for the time being until it can be evaluated. Some of the details are perfect to be integrated into the article and others less so. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
the controversy section should be removed as it cites a conclusion based on problems of misquoting, blatant racism and manipulation.
- You are not the arbiter, that is not your role. Our role is to describe without bias what reliable sources say about a subject. But you have chosen to use your own personal opinion and bias to decide what is "blatant racism", and "manipulation". That is WP:ADVOCACY and inconsistent with the core policies of Wikipedia. Furthermore, your assertion of "as it happened" vs "as it is" is fallacious, because there is no such a thing as an "objective truth" when presenting viewpoints, which by nature are not facts. You are basing your entire argumentation in a misreading of our core content policies, that our role as editors is to report on a purported "truth", when our role has nothing to do with that. My view is that we have to bring this dispute to WP:DR, be that the use of RFCs or mediation, given the significantly different interpretations of core elements of Wikipedia content policies. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
These are all the legal experts commentary in the controversy section. As you can see, without exception all were made after the decision was rendered, making them "post-analysis". That is why it does not make sense to have two different sections.
- Citron: Nov 25 - Post analysis
- Sullivan, Toobin, Cohen: Nov 25 - Post analysis
- Fitzpatrick: Nov 25 - Post analysis
- Trachtenberg: Nov 25 - Post analysis
- Abrams: Nov 26 - Post analysis
- Ruby: Nov 27 - Post analysis
- Nolan : Nov 28 - Post analysis
- O'Donnel: Nov 29 - - Post analysis
- Sterling Silver, Dec 6 - Post Analysis
- Cwobeel (talk) 19:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cute, calling me an arbiter? You added this source maligning the prosecution because the incident report that was just released was not in ABC News hands. You added the Ronald S. Sullivan Jr. comment "As a strategic move, it was smart; he got what he wanted without being seen as directly responsible for the result." - That is a claim of manipulation and bias. And what of this James A. Cohen pick, "[McCulloch] did worse than abdicate his responsibility: He structured the presentation so the jurors would vote no true bill." which is another accusation of manipulation and deliberate and flagrant dereliction of duty. Jay Sterling Silver is calling McCullough's announcement Orwellian and criticized the grand jury's "no true bill" as a failure. You stand Jeff Roorda's comments on its head, the is even source which is titled "McCulloch supporter: McCulloch never intended to indict Wilson". which shows a clear an inherent bias in the reporting. Editors are supposed to pass judgement on sources and remove factual inaccuracies and inappropriate personal opinions being advanced as fact. This is part of the core of Wikipedia policies for WP:IRS, WP:V and WP:NPOV. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- [Sigh]. -NPOV is to report without bias significant viewpoints as reported in reliable sources - Are you saying that these opinions are not significant? Are you saying that these sources are not reliable? Or are you saying "I don't like it"? Which one is it? - Cwobeel (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Collectively the POV expressed by those sources is certainly notable. Individually, each restatement of that POV is generally not notable. Hence the RFC we have going to summarize instead. Giving 10 quotes that all essentially make the same argument is not neutral. We don't achieve neutrality by putting every sour cable quote into the article, and saying "we are neutral, because they are proportional to the real world, because our sample size is the same as the population". These POVs are important, and should be included into the article, but we need to do it the correct way. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I already agreed with the need to summarize. But what we are discussing is ChrisGualtieri's attempt to suppress the viewpoints of legal analysts such as Cohen, Sullivan, Silver and others, because he believes "they got it wrong" or that they are "biased" I am starting an RFC - Cwobeel (talk) 20:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is not suppression, clearly critics made arguments and were covered by the media, but that does not make their arguments true. It is a case of WP:NPOV "opinion as fact". You may call it an opinion, but you are legitimizing it by drawing attention and attempting to back up the criticism by name and title despite the premise of the argument being fallacious. I do not take any pride in making "legal experts" look bad so I prefer responding to criticism of critics who make bad arguments without calling them out. Immortalizing and drawing undue attention to bad arguments are also a WP:BLP issue of sorts, because it is a form of public shaming. Which is why I need to revisit Casselman. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I already agreed with the need to summarize. But what we are discussing is ChrisGualtieri's attempt to suppress the viewpoints of legal analysts such as Cohen, Sullivan, Silver and others, because he believes "they got it wrong" or that they are "biased" I am starting an RFC - Cwobeel (talk) 20:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Collectively the POV expressed by those sources is certainly notable. Individually, each restatement of that POV is generally not notable. Hence the RFC we have going to summarize instead. Giving 10 quotes that all essentially make the same argument is not neutral. We don't achieve neutrality by putting every sour cable quote into the article, and saying "we are neutral, because they are proportional to the real world, because our sample size is the same as the population". These POVs are important, and should be included into the article, but we need to do it the correct way. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- [Sigh]. -NPOV is to report without bias significant viewpoints as reported in reliable sources - Are you saying that these opinions are not significant? Are you saying that these sources are not reliable? Or are you saying "I don't like it"? Which one is it? - Cwobeel (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Amusingly, I just did a spot check on the publication dates of all of our controversy sources. All of them are dated on or after November 25, 2014, when the prosecutor's office released the grand jury testimony and definitely after the decision to indict. The only exception is Dan Abrams, who released his analysis on November 24, prior to the document release (which, by the way, makes me question whether he's a reliable source for this). Therefore, the post-decision section makes no sense in the context of the controversy. General consensus here seems to be that the post-decision section contributes nothing but confusion to reader understanding,so I'm gonna go ahead and re-integrate it into the rest of the section. --RAN1 (talk) 02:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
RFC: Viewpoints of legal analysts published in reliable sources?
Are viewpoints of legal analysts published in reliable sources about the grand jury proceedings suitable for inclusion if they paint a negative view of the prosecution, or represent biased opinions? - 20:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Permalink [30]
Details on legal analysts
- The legal analysts of CNN and The New Yorker
- the director of Harvard Law School's Criminal Justice Institute
- a law professor at Fordham University
- the president-elect of the National District Attorneys Association
- a University of Missouri law professor
- the chief legal affairs anchor for ABC News
- the director of graduate programs in criminology at Merrimack College and a 27-year veteran and former lieutenant of the Boston Police Department
- a former policeman and lecturer at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice
- an experienced defense attorney
- a professor at the St. Thomas University School of Law in Miami
- Cwobeel (talk) 22:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
RFC Survey
- No - not in all cases. In all honesty, the RfC question is probably a bit too broad to be able to allow reasonable responses. There is no definition of "legal analyst" provided, nor an indication of the relative reliability of sources, and there are other concerns as well. I would suggest working toward a clearer and more answerable question might be in order, and also adding the RfC to the more clearly appropriate category for politics, government, and law. John Carter (talk) 20:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- complex. negative opinions are allowable under BLP, but a section full of randomly picked quotes are probably not. Agree with John that a more narrowly tailored RFC needs to be formed, perhaps trying to build consensus for a particular proposed section. If the version linked in the RFC is such a proposal no because it is a WP:QUOTEFARM. The critical viewpoints are very notable, but we need to write a section describing that criticism in a summary style and not just list off everyone who said something about the GJ or prosecutor. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- No per John Carter. The legal analyst could be an arm-chair lawyer who has no perspective, training or familiarity with the matter at hand. The article is already full of cases which those with no insight of background have been used to advance a certain viewpoint, often against their intention by the media. If the analyst is incorrect on the basic premise of the argument, then the entire source is compromised. There is no requirement to give multiple points of view on an issue if the argument is critically compromised - it would be seen as giving authority in defiance of fact. Each case must be examined and weighed, not just the "talk heads or angry voices" which shout nonsense. Again, any legal analyst who says the grand jury was flawed because there was "no rigorous cross examination by the opposition" is not reliable statement of opinion, no matter who might say it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, if the sources are reliable and the legal expertise of the commentators is not questionable. In this case we are talking about the legal analysts of CNN and The New Yorker, the director of Harvard Law School's Criminal Justice Institute, a law professor at Fordham University, the president-elect of the National District Attorneys Association, a University of Missouri law professor, the chief legal affairs anchor for ABC News, the director of graduate programs in criminology at Merrimack College and a 27-year veteran and former lieutenant of the Boston Police Department, a former policeman and lecturer at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, to name a few. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Vaguely worded survey, but would agree with complex as well. If the negative and biased opinion of the legal analyst had itself received significant and widespread coverage, then yes it's suitable for inclusion. Dershowitz ripping Corey over Zimmerman comes to mind, he's notable, qualified for legal analysis and it was widely reported on. The way the legal analyst's opinions are being used in this instance - No - this looks like a farm of quotes set up to deliberately attack McCulloch, as they don't impart any significant or encyclopedic information and are sometimes wrong or misrepresented to imply wrongdoing by McCulloch. The 27 year veteran wrote that it was "McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify" and then goes on to rip him for allowing it. This is false, as it was the grand jury's decision to let Wilson testify, not McCulloch, an obvious BLP issue. The lecturer from John Jay doesn't even mention the grand jury at all, his opinion is about the handling of the shooting and its aftermath and talks about police departments. And who is Ronald Kuby and why should we care what his opinion is? The POV pushing going on in this section (and article) needs to be curtailed. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Discussion
RfC Phrasing
I agree with Carter, this question needs to be better defined. The real question here seems to be "Are the neutrally-summarized viewpoints of legal analysts published in reliable sources about the grand jury proceedings suitable for inclusion to describe the grand jury hearing controversy? Is the bias of their viewpoint reason to not include them?" I'm not particularly set on the second sentence phrasing, but it's as close as I can get it. --RAN1 (talk) 21:25, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would also add that another subject of concern would be when and under what circumstances the comments were made. I imagine all of us know that some public figures tend to lunge at any camera in their vicinity, sometimes doing or saying rather unusual and sensationalist things to get their name in the news and their name recognition higher. Also, honestly, although I haven't checked in this case, play-by-play analysis of a proceeding while it is happening is generally much more problematic than post-game review. Anyone who remembers the O.J. Simpson trial and its wall-to-wall contemporary coverage will probably be able to think of at least a few statements made by the talking heads involved during the case which were, well, perhaps regretted by those individuals later. John Carter (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- John, see the thread above. All the comments in question were made in the few days and weeks after the grand jury decided not to indict and focused specifically on the prosecution's handling of the proceedings. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Are the neutrally-summarized viewpoints of legal analysts published in reliable sources about the grand jury proceedings, after the release of the grand jury testimony, suitable for inclusion to describe the grand jury hearing controversy? Is the bias of their viewpoint reason to not include them?" How's that? --RAN1 (talk) 23:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Your proposed phrasing will be a very good follow up to this RFC. I think we are too late into it to change it now. It will be great to hear comments from uninvolved editors, as we are way too close to this and we all know when each one of us stands on the issue give or take. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Are the neutrally-summarized viewpoints of legal analysts published in reliable sources about the grand jury proceedings, after the release of the grand jury testimony, suitable for inclusion to describe the grand jury hearing controversy? Is the bias of their viewpoint reason to not include them?" How's that? --RAN1 (talk) 23:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- John, see the thread above. All the comments in question were made in the few days and weeks after the grand jury decided not to indict and focused specifically on the prosecution's handling of the proceedings. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Remove the opinions
This was originally in response to my OP in #RfC Phrasing. It has been refactored to this section since it is a different line of discussion. --RAN1 (talk) 22:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Even still, the answer is no because "neutrally-summarized" does not mean the argument is supported by fact. Having a job in the "legal" field does not mean you suddenly become an authority on all aspects of the law. Each case is unique and must be evaluated. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- From a closer analysis, 6 of the 9 legal analyst opinions are coming from law professors or attorneys proper, arguably experts of the field. While state statutes in the US might be vast, that hardly means that those opinions should be summarily dismissed. Also, I should note that your comment doesn't clarify whether the question is more appropriate for the survey. --RAN1 (talk) 21:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is already an agreement that we need to summarize these viewpoints. The purpose of this RFC as specifically worded, is to assess if the viewpoints of these legal experts can be summarized in due course. ChrisGualtieri's argument is that these are not to be used at all, because they are "fringe", "racists", "false", and so forth, thus the need for an RFC. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I explained perfectly, each case is unique and must be evaluated. The entire section linked by has very serious issues underpinning each argument which may not be obvious from the conclusions provided on this page - but in effect entire list has problems which would make it fail NPOV or RSOPINION. This normally results in the removal of the problematic source and replacing it with a better argument or summary in a better source. I've already explained why some of these are so problematic on McCullough's page, it would be trivial to detail them again here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- So, basically what you are saying that you have deconstructed the opinions of each one of these legal experts, and you , ChrisGualtieri, has decided that they are worthless and that they need to be replaced. Did I get that right? - Cwobeel (talk) 22:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Quoting you:
to be blunt every source from November 25 and 26ish are going to be uninformed responses by individuals who did not have the grand jury documents in the first place.
- This is the core of the dispute. You are arguing that without the GJ documents, their opinions are useless. But even if that is right (most, if not all the opinions where made after the documents were released), many of the opinions are unrelated to the documents, or the evidence, and focused on the GJ process and the prosecutor's actions. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)- No, my argument is that without the knowledge of the situation those opinions critical of McCullough in the case are ignorant. It reflects the notion of "trial by media" and has absolutely no bearing on the facts. The documents have not all been released, the first batch was covered in this time period, but it hardly represents a complete picture. It is easy to criticize a result you do not agree with, but it is difficult to admit that it was fair and would never have gone to trial. Smerconish took the time and came to the realization the same as many others. An uncomfortable reality for many, but... that is sometimes the case. Delving into criticism with nothing more than unsupported allegations and poor conjecture is not a valid argument - it is like going through the Kübler-Ross model. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:55, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- I explained perfectly, each case is unique and must be evaluated. The entire section linked by has very serious issues underpinning each argument which may not be obvious from the conclusions provided on this page - but in effect entire list has problems which would make it fail NPOV or RSOPINION. This normally results in the removal of the problematic source and replacing it with a better argument or summary in a better source. I've already explained why some of these are so problematic on McCullough's page, it would be trivial to detail them again here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - I removed the wiki linking to United States v. Williams in that section where it was being used to support the opinion from Citron. This is the United States v. Williams case he is referring to in his opinion piece, which was about something entirely different than the WP article about child pornography that was being linked to. Probably an oversight, but still we should always double-check to make sure what we are wiki-linking to actually supports the text, especially in that section. Isaidnoway (talk) 02:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well spotted. Thank you. Time to create United States v. Williams (1992) - [...] requiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory body that sits to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge into an adjudicatory body that sits to determine guilt or innocence. Wow. Cwobeel (talk) 03:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Did the grand jury subpoena Wilson
- Comment - Where did you find that the grand jury subpoenaed Wilson? If that's true that is a major BLP issue that is not subject to RfC. --RAN1 (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson volunteered to testify and the grand jury allowed him to. The grand jury was in charge of this investigation to decide whether probable cause existed to indict, not McCulloch. The grand jury had the option to issue a subpoena, but he volunteered instead and the grand jury heard his testimony. It was not McCulloch's decision to allow or not allow Wilson to testify once he turned over the investigation to the grand jury. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- The grand jury isn't the only one who can issue subpoenas, the prosecutor has that right as well. Also, you don't "volunteer" to be a witness - the court has to issue a subpoena first. You can invoke the Fifth after the subpoena has been issued, but Wilson didn't in this case. It's entirely possible McCulloch issued the subpoena. If there's really a BLP issue here, there should be better evidence of that. Judicial process seems to indicate the absence of a BLP violation. --RAN1 (talk) 00:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson can and did choose to participate of his own choice. Witnesses can be compelled to appear to the grand jury by subpoena, but the fifth could be invoked at that time. If you submit willingly you are cooperating and do not need a subpoena in the first place. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I still don't find any evidence in sources that Wilson participated in his own accord, and given that the proceedings were secret and directed by the prosecutor, not the prosecuted, Wilson probably did not have the ability to have the court to hear his testimony without them serving a subpoena first. --RAN1 (talk) 01:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson can and did choose to participate of his own choice. Witnesses can be compelled to appear to the grand jury by subpoena, but the fifth could be invoked at that time. If you submit willingly you are cooperating and do not need a subpoena in the first place. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- The grand jury isn't the only one who can issue subpoenas, the prosecutor has that right as well. Also, you don't "volunteer" to be a witness - the court has to issue a subpoena first. You can invoke the Fifth after the subpoena has been issued, but Wilson didn't in this case. It's entirely possible McCulloch issued the subpoena. If there's really a BLP issue here, there should be better evidence of that. Judicial process seems to indicate the absence of a BLP violation. --RAN1 (talk) 00:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wilson volunteered to testify and the grand jury allowed him to. The grand jury was in charge of this investigation to decide whether probable cause existed to indict, not McCulloch. The grand jury had the option to issue a subpoena, but he volunteered instead and the grand jury heard his testimony. It was not McCulloch's decision to allow or not allow Wilson to testify once he turned over the investigation to the grand jury. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- That is why we need to stay close to the sources: Veteran defense attorney John Rogers, who is not involved in this case, said Wednesday, “It’s unusual but not unheard of for a prosecutor to extend an invitation” for the target of an investigation to testify to a grand jury. He said he had rarely allowed it. [31]
- Basically, all and every piece of evidence or witness presented at a GJ hearing is at the sole discretion of the prosecutor, or by subpoena. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:44, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @ChrisGualtieri:
Wilson can and did choose to participate of his own choice.
Source for that assertion? - Cwobeel (talk) 01:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)- I take it neither of you have actually read Wilson's gj testimony, where they actually discuss the fact that he volunteered. He volunteered, therefore it is not possible that McCulloch issued anything, why would he, he wasn't investigating the case, the jurors were and they said OK, why wouldn't they? Personally, I can't understand the criticism. Wilson wants to testify to give his version of what happened to substantiate his self-defense claim in person to the jurors and the jurors have the opportunity to hear his version in person, assess his credibility in person and ask him unfiltered questions without his attorney present, and somehow that's worthy of criticism?
- @ChrisGualtieri:
Even ignoring the very obvious 5th amendment argument where he cannot be compelled, and therefore he obviously volunteered, and the GJ testimony just mentioned by CG, there are numerous secondaries saying this for us. One of them is even already in the article, sourcing the statement that he was not obligated. [32]Gaijin42 (talk) 02:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- From the grand jury testimony, the prosecutors spoke to Wilson's attorneys before testifying for the court, so the testimony was at least arranged for by the prosecutors. Invoking BLP here on a criticism of the prosecutors letting Wilson testify seems out of place. --RAN1 (talk) 02:31, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Here is another source [33] "narrative of self-defense put forth by Officer Wilson in his voluntary, four hours of testimony before the grand jury" I am not commenting about if its BLP or not. I havent followed the discussion above closely enough for this particular issue. But a source was asked for, and they have been provided.Gaijin42 (talk) 02:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unless Ran1 cite a source to back up the accusation that McCulloch personally made the decision for Wilson to testify, then it is a BLP issue. You need to be very aware of who is being implicated and for what action. Saying "prosecutors let Wilson testify" is changing the subject. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changing the subject how? The source we're debating specifically says "McCulloch's decision to allow the target of a grand jury investigation to actually testify before that grand jury is practically unheard of". That isn't different from "prosecutors let Wilson testify". Again, I don't see how this is a BLP issue. --RAN1 (talk) 04:21, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- It still clearly implicates that McCulloch decided to allow it. Though, you are getting into specific legal matters which become complicated and are completely inappropriate to discuss here. Either back it up or it stays out because that is not how the process works. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is quite simple, really, the prosecutor has full discretion to allow any witnesses to testify. Wilson indeed volunteered to MacCulloch, not the grand jury. So MacCulloch allowed it, and the criticism is a fair one. No BLP issue whatsoever. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel reinserted an unsupported accusation under discussion, a BLP violation, acknowledged by two editors back into the article. It is fair to assertion that Ran1 and Cwobeel do not know the law. Nolan doesn't even understand the processes - you are going to need something better to back up that McCulloch personally made the decision. Also, you restored factually inaccurate material as well. The whole source and paragraph fails WP:IRS. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- ....Point of order, "this is not how the process works" - which process? Your argument has moved on from contentious and poorly sourced to "getting into specific legal matters". This has nothing to do with BLP, so I suggest we come to some sort of compromise about this. --RAN1 (talk) 05:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Two editors, policy and my section certainly point out the issue. Take it there. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:14, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- You could have removed Nolan for low-quality sourcing of exceptional claim, and saved yourself all this discussion. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Two editors, policy and my section certainly point out the issue. Take it there. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:14, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- ....Point of order, "this is not how the process works" - which process? Your argument has moved on from contentious and poorly sourced to "getting into specific legal matters". This has nothing to do with BLP, so I suggest we come to some sort of compromise about this. --RAN1 (talk) 05:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cwobeel reinserted an unsupported accusation under discussion, a BLP violation, acknowledged by two editors back into the article. It is fair to assertion that Ran1 and Cwobeel do not know the law. Nolan doesn't even understand the processes - you are going to need something better to back up that McCulloch personally made the decision. Also, you restored factually inaccurate material as well. The whole source and paragraph fails WP:IRS. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is quite simple, really, the prosecutor has full discretion to allow any witnesses to testify. Wilson indeed volunteered to MacCulloch, not the grand jury. So MacCulloch allowed it, and the criticism is a fair one. No BLP issue whatsoever. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- It still clearly implicates that McCulloch decided to allow it. Though, you are getting into specific legal matters which become complicated and are completely inappropriate to discuss here. Either back it up or it stays out because that is not how the process works. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changing the subject how? The source we're debating specifically says "McCulloch's decision to allow the target of a grand jury investigation to actually testify before that grand jury is practically unheard of". That isn't different from "prosecutors let Wilson testify". Again, I don't see how this is a BLP issue. --RAN1 (talk) 04:21, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unless Ran1 cite a source to back up the accusation that McCulloch personally made the decision for Wilson to testify, then it is a BLP issue. You need to be very aware of who is being implicated and for what action. Saying "prosecutors let Wilson testify" is changing the subject. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Witness 40
Witness 40 (the one with the obviously racist diary entries about going into Ferguson so she could meet black people and stop calling them N-s) has been doxxed by TheSmokingGun and stories picked up by blogs and other (some reliable) sources. Thus far all sources seem to be pointing back to TSG, so I think going too much into detail will result in BLP issues. Therefore, I don't think we should focus much on her as an individual , but she could be used as an example of the "outright fabricated" witness statements (Along with the witness who claims Brown was on his knees and shot at point blank range in the head, and then shot in the back 7 times while face down)
40's credibility was already discussed prior to doxxing by many reliable sources, and the prosecutors themselves raised issues with her credibility in front of the GJ. [34] [35] Gaijin42 (talk) 22:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Are we reporting witness #40 testimony in the article? - Cwobeel (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Is it not unusual to present witness testimony to a grand jury, when the prosecutor knows 100% that the witness was not really a witness, or when it is obvious that the witness lied (with evidence that shows that he/she lied)? Puzzling. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- The records and in this case the CNN source reads, "Some, however, told entirely contradictory or made-up stories and were called out by prosecutors, who went to great lengths to discredit some witnesses." The purpose of the grand jury is not just to rubber stamp convictions, that screening can be handled by the prosecutor in advance. Typically grand juries are a step on the way to the trial process that does not confer a major advantage to the defense with the alternative - a preliminary hearing. In this case, the grand jury was doing the screening and ultimately prevented a critical and costly public backfire that would have come in a preliminary court hearing even before the trial phase. There was some unusual aspects, like Wilson speaking without an attorney and all of the data entered with the ability to be used in actual court trial if it occurred. It is pretty clear that very unreliable witness accounts were part of it, however, their presence does not represent a liability for the prosecution at all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Extra note: From another perspective. If a witness enters into the record a false account, their "usefulness" ends and they could be charged with perjury in exceptional cases. The defense would not call a witness to provide false testimony - that would devastate their case. Also, the grand jury is not a trial, so this records their testimony. The grand jury is a filtering process and a check to see if a case could be successfully brought in court. To make it blunt: If Wislon was indicted, no one would have called witness 40 to testify - to say otherwise would be laughable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, it is peculiar that a prosecutor would bring an obviously fake witness to testify in front of a grand jury. I don't think there is a precedent for this type of action by a prosecutor. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:NOTFORUM. Enough said. --RAN1 (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, it is peculiar that a prosecutor would bring an obviously fake witness to testify in front of a grand jury. I don't think there is a precedent for this type of action by a prosecutor. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Extra note: From another perspective. If a witness enters into the record a false account, their "usefulness" ends and they could be charged with perjury in exceptional cases. The defense would not call a witness to provide false testimony - that would devastate their case. Also, the grand jury is not a trial, so this records their testimony. The grand jury is a filtering process and a check to see if a case could be successfully brought in court. To make it blunt: If Wislon was indicted, no one would have called witness 40 to testify - to say otherwise would be laughable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- The records and in this case the CNN source reads, "Some, however, told entirely contradictory or made-up stories and were called out by prosecutors, who went to great lengths to discredit some witnesses." The purpose of the grand jury is not just to rubber stamp convictions, that screening can be handled by the prosecutor in advance. Typically grand juries are a step on the way to the trial process that does not confer a major advantage to the defense with the alternative - a preliminary hearing. In this case, the grand jury was doing the screening and ultimately prevented a critical and costly public backfire that would have come in a preliminary court hearing even before the trial phase. There was some unusual aspects, like Wilson speaking without an attorney and all of the data entered with the ability to be used in actual court trial if it occurred. It is pretty clear that very unreliable witness accounts were part of it, however, their presence does not represent a liability for the prosecution at all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Ran1, stop trying to control the discussion. This is not a forum issue, the fact that sources are highlighting a BLP issue and are discussing it with a highly negative slant and using it to attack the prosecution, the process and the "lack of indictment" is problematic. We cannot even LINK these pages per WP:BLP - which applies to talk pages - but we can certainly discuss what we see and comment on its relevancy and merits. To conclude Cwobeel's arguments - it is not unusual in cases and doubly so in cases like this. The witness has done this before. Though Witness 22 and 35 could have lead to indictments except they were false, 40 was well.. directly and immediately discredited by prosecutors according to secondary reports and the documents. Claims of collusion and such are more of the ignorant and biased commentary from what passes as "news" these days. Another may surface soon. We just need to not touch this BLP nightmare because the family of the person is being targeted. Can we agree that per WP:BLP we will keep all identifying information of this witness off Wikipedia - it is a "hot topic" right now, but let a week or two pass before evaluating it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:23, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- At least we agree on something. No identifying info whatsoever. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:33, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Tim Nolan removed
Given the BLP issues which incorrectly comments on grand jury operation, claims bias and misconduct and that it was personally "McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify" when all documents show Wilson volunteered and cooperated with the jury. Further evidence that Tom Nolan is not a reliable source is that he has no understanding of the prosecution process. The argument that "Robert McCulloch could’ve indicted Michael Brown’s killer himself. Instead, he barely pushed the jurors to charge the cop and allowed the unprecedented step of letting the officer testify."[36] He argues "the prosecutor has the option to bring charges against a defendant directly before a judge without invoking the grand jury process at all." without calling it a preliminary hearing. This allows the defense to cross-examine. Tom Nolan does not indicate that the process does not understand the basic premise that McCulloch does not indict and bring the case to trial, it would go to a judge who would then decide if probable cause exists instead of the grand jury. Nolan's arguments do not reflect procedure or fact and the opinion piece clearly shows that. It should not be used and it makes a BLP issue by its use and unsupported assumptions. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:21, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- We are in the middle of a discussion above at #Did_the_grand_jury_subpoena_Wilson, so why the rush? I will revert. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:31, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- And there are a number of sources besides Nolan making exactly the same point. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I just explained above how that reasoning is botched. The prosecutors arranged with Wilson's attorneys to testify in court on the day he testified, so they arguably allowed him to testify in court. You're stretching some pretty silly arguments to invoke BLP, reflected in the fact that you're criticizing him for not talking about the preliminary hearing process in detail when a cursory reference would do just as well given the context and the audience. The additional perspective that McCulloch brought the grand jury investigation to Wilson's attention without precedent and that there's a double standard, given he's a veteran, is reliable, well-sourced and verifiable. BLP really doesn't cover removing this. --RAN1 (talk) 04:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Here is another source: The grand jury deciding whether to charge Wilson has three black members. The deliberations are secret. A prosecutor assigned to the grand jury has enormous sway over the outcome, by deciding what charges to consider, what evidence to present and who will testify [37] - Cwobeel (talk) 04:40, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- And another one: [38] Veteran defense attorney John Rogers, who is not involved in this case, said Wednesday, “It’s unusual but not unheard of for a prosecutor to extend an invitation” for the target of an investigation to testify to a grand jury. He said he had rarely allowed it. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:45, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see a bunch of generic statements, but no citations of case law or procedure to actually connect that McCulloch personally made the decision to have Wilson testify. Per WP:SYNTH none of these directly make the connection and it is a WP:BLP accusation. NY Law states "CPL article 190 governs grand jury proceedings, and CPL 190.50 specifically discusses the defendant testifying at the grand jury- The right to testify at grand jury is a statutory one. A defendant who is denied the right to testify may bring a motion to dismiss the indictment." And "once the case is out of local court and has been referred to the grand jury, the DA's notice obligation is over. At this point if the defendant wants to testify, it is defense counsel's obligation to serve written notice on the prosecution. Given the law and proceedings, there may have been multiple factors and these may not have been something McCulloch can just "decide". Right now the two of you are WP:SYNTHing an argument and trying to defend the inclusion of a source that cannot even figure out basic process from a (likely) unqualified person from a completely different state and jurisdiction. Provide proof or remove it, it is not that hard. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Um......this is far from showing the statement is contentious and poorly sourced, I suggest we come to a compromise about this instead of jumping to BLP. --RAN1 (talk) 05:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway: and I agree - the statement is unsupported and contentious. I clearly showed Nolan is unreliable. The accusation is a BLP issue because it is an allegation against McCulloch by a person who is attacking McCulloch and trying to place personal blame on McCulloch for an allowing or deciding that Wilson could testify. The law is complex, but grand juries call witnesses and Wilson came voluntarily. There is no reliable evidence that Wilson testified or was allowed to testify by McCulloch by fiat. Do you two understand that your arguments are logical fallacies? They do not actually connect the accusation to established fact. If you cannot, then it is false. False accusations are, by definition, BLP violations on Wikipedia. But more importantly, they are false and should not be included on Wikipedia because they fail WP:V. So I ask again. Can you VERIFY that McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment and McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify was unprecedented and choosing to go to grand jury rather than bringing charges directly indicated a double standard in favor of Wilson's status as a police officer.? Prove it or remove it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- There are plenty of sources that say that it was under McCulloch's discretion that Wilson testified. What's the point of arguing otherwise, when we have plenty of sources that assert that? Maybe WP:DROPTHESTICK? - Cwobeel (talk) 15:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- To clarify, we can't "VERIFY that McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment", but we can VERIFY that there are a number of experts that asserted that opinion in reliable sources. NPOV and V 101. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I do see CG's point on this. People have criticized McCulloch and in doing so have implied certain facts. That is not sourcing for the fact. Including their quote in a way that has the wiki implying that fact is problematic. I agree with you that notable opinions (even if wrong) are includable by WP:NPOV but we need to find a way to include them without leading the reader down the Primrose Path. As far as I know we have NO sources that actually directly indicate how Wilson came to testify. Did he show up and ask to be let in? Did the GJ ask for him? Did the prosecutor subpoena him? We have a big void there (unusual for this case!) and we can't let the opinions of people who are themselves uninformed as to this basic fact drive the way we present this (non)fact Gaijin42 (talk) 15:45, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Toobin and Hostin discussing Wilson's decision to volunteer to testify before the grand jury on AC360. From LI: Wilson was not compelled to testify before the Grand Jury, but rather volunteered to do so. It stands to reason that Wilson's lawyers were in contact with prosecutor's to make the arrangements (when) for Wilson to testify and then upon his arrival they advised him of his right not to testify, and due to the nature of this case, they probably required a formal waiver. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just repeating this for emphasis: "People have criticized McCulloch and in doing so have implied certain facts. That is not sourcing for the fact. Including their quote in a way that has the wiki implying that fact is problematic. I agree with you that notable opinions (even if wrong) are includable by WP:NPOV but we need to find a way to include them without leading the reader down the Primrose Path." Well said. We cannot use WP prose to imply things that have not been explicitly concluded by a source. As I said above, innuendo is virtually always unencyclopedic. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Toobin and Hostin discussing Wilson's decision to volunteer to testify before the grand jury on AC360. From LI: Wilson was not compelled to testify before the Grand Jury, but rather volunteered to do so. It stands to reason that Wilson's lawyers were in contact with prosecutor's to make the arrangements (when) for Wilson to testify and then upon his arrival they advised him of his right not to testify, and due to the nature of this case, they probably required a formal waiver. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I do see CG's point on this. People have criticized McCulloch and in doing so have implied certain facts. That is not sourcing for the fact. Including their quote in a way that has the wiki implying that fact is problematic. I agree with you that notable opinions (even if wrong) are includable by WP:NPOV but we need to find a way to include them without leading the reader down the Primrose Path. As far as I know we have NO sources that actually directly indicate how Wilson came to testify. Did he show up and ask to be let in? Did the GJ ask for him? Did the prosecutor subpoena him? We have a big void there (unusual for this case!) and we can't let the opinions of people who are themselves uninformed as to this basic fact drive the way we present this (non)fact Gaijin42 (talk) 15:45, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- To clarify, we can't "VERIFY that McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment", but we can VERIFY that there are a number of experts that asserted that opinion in reliable sources. NPOV and V 101. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- There are plenty of sources that say that it was under McCulloch's discretion that Wilson testified. What's the point of arguing otherwise, when we have plenty of sources that assert that? Maybe WP:DROPTHESTICK? - Cwobeel (talk) 15:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway: and I agree - the statement is unsupported and contentious. I clearly showed Nolan is unreliable. The accusation is a BLP issue because it is an allegation against McCulloch by a person who is attacking McCulloch and trying to place personal blame on McCulloch for an allowing or deciding that Wilson could testify. The law is complex, but grand juries call witnesses and Wilson came voluntarily. There is no reliable evidence that Wilson testified or was allowed to testify by McCulloch by fiat. Do you two understand that your arguments are logical fallacies? They do not actually connect the accusation to established fact. If you cannot, then it is false. False accusations are, by definition, BLP violations on Wikipedia. But more importantly, they are false and should not be included on Wikipedia because they fail WP:V. So I ask again. Can you VERIFY that McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment and McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify was unprecedented and choosing to go to grand jury rather than bringing charges directly indicated a double standard in favor of Wilson's status as a police officer.? Prove it or remove it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Um......this is far from showing the statement is contentious and poorly sourced, I suggest we come to a compromise about this instead of jumping to BLP. --RAN1 (talk) 05:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see a bunch of generic statements, but no citations of case law or procedure to actually connect that McCulloch personally made the decision to have Wilson testify. Per WP:SYNTH none of these directly make the connection and it is a WP:BLP accusation. NY Law states "CPL article 190 governs grand jury proceedings, and CPL 190.50 specifically discusses the defendant testifying at the grand jury- The right to testify at grand jury is a statutory one. A defendant who is denied the right to testify may bring a motion to dismiss the indictment." And "once the case is out of local court and has been referred to the grand jury, the DA's notice obligation is over. At this point if the defendant wants to testify, it is defense counsel's obligation to serve written notice on the prosecution. Given the law and proceedings, there may have been multiple factors and these may not have been something McCulloch can just "decide". Right now the two of you are WP:SYNTHing an argument and trying to defend the inclusion of a source that cannot even figure out basic process from a (likely) unqualified person from a completely different state and jurisdiction. Provide proof or remove it, it is not that hard. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Tom Nolan
RFC
This RfC concerns the following content:
Tom Nolan, the director of graduate programs in criminology at Merrimack College and a 27-year veteran and former lieutenant of the Boston Police Department,[1] wrote that McCulloch's failure to secure an indictment, given that grand juries are under direction of the prosecution, indicated that McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment. He also said McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify was unprecedented, as targets of grand jury hearings are usually kept unaware of the investigation. He also stated that the prosecutor choosing to go to grand jury rather than bringing charges directly indicated a double standard in favor of Wilson's status as a police officer.[2]
References
- ^ "Tom Nolan". The Daily Beast. Archived from the original on December 4, 2014. Retrieved November 28, 2014.
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Should this be added back into the article or should this stay out per WP:BLPREMOVE?
For reference, WP:BLPREMOVE states that contentious material that is poorly sourced or not sourced, based on a conjectural interpretation of a source, relies on self-published sources, or relies on sources that fail to meet WP:V standards should be removed in violation of WP:BLP. --RAN1 (talk) 05:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
RFC Survey 2
- Stay out - It contains three unsupported BLP accusations which are sourced to an opinion piece with an agenda, logical fallacies and ignorance of the legal process. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose inclusion - "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, ..." Prosecutors can't indict on their own, as ChrisGualtieri said, and there is a very good reason for this. Also see Grand juries in the United States, and in particular this cited source on subjects of investigations. Stop including factually incorrect sources in this article, especially with extensive quotations.Roches (talk) 12:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- stay out the "' failure to secure an indictment" part is just opinion bashing and is a tautology to boot, the "unprecedented" bit could be used but would need to be tweaked in light of the confirmation we have from other soruces that such does happen and is allowed but is rare, the final bit about grand jury vs direct is relevant but covered sufficiently elsewhere and repeating it doesn't add anything. To the points above by CG and Roches, Missouri law allows for "indictment by information" which means the probable cause hearing - its clear that is what they are referring to. because people didn't use the right technical terms is not cause to dismiss their opinions - we have plenty of other reasons to do so, don't WP:GAME things. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:42, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Include in summary of legal experts opinion - Nolan's opinion is not that different from the opinion of most of the legal experts that discussed McCulloch's approach to the case. The vast majority of legal commentators, as well as a substantial number of media sources have leveled similar criticism, with a few exceptions. The argument that the criticism is a BLP violation is unfounded, as we are presenting expert opinion described in reliable sources. Not including Nolan's and other legal expert opinion will be a violation of WP:NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:18, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Stay out - Nolan is certainly entitled to his opinion, but when his opinion implies serious wrongdoing against an individual, and there are BLP concerns associated with his opinion, then his commentary should be evaluated to determine if it's acceptable for inclusion. In this case, we should be asking if his opinion imparts any substantive encyclopedic information that would help the reader to better understand this "controversy" - no it doesn't, it's just an opinion piece attacking McCulloch. Err on the side of caution and leave it out. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Discussion
Article title: Prosecutor Used Grand Jury to Let Darren Wilson Walk
Opening argument: "Robert McCulloch could’ve indicted Michael Brown’s killer himself. Instead, he barely pushed the jurors to charge the cop and allowed the unprecedented step of letting the officer testify."
Clearly not a reliable source for numerous reasons. Aside from being a clear opinion piece, the personal feelings and emotion of Nolan are unabashed and naked with comments like: "It had nothing whatsoever to do with the evidence and everything to do with the prosecutor’s unwillingness to try the case in court and his reluctance to incur the wrath of the law-enforcement community to which he is so incestuously tethered." Nothing about this source maintains or even gives the appearance of neutrality. Too many arguments are rooted in absolutes and factual inaccuracies to hold any objectivity or value as a Wikipedia source. The usage is for three serious BLP accusations:
- McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment
- McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify was unprecedented
- Choosing to go to grand jury rather than bringing charges directly indicated a double standard in favor of Wilson's status as a police officer.
Cwobeel said these are not BLP issues as he restored the material. WP:YESPOV's "Opinion as Fact" refers to all three of these claims. Nolan argues that grand juries "are at all times completely and unalterably under the control and direction of the prosecutor." This is a gross perversion and demonstrably wrong, just like Nolan's concepts of indictments. The preliminary hearing option, the alternative, is not quick and simple in these cases and the defense gets to cross-examine the witnesses and provide evidence while the judge could still find no probable cause. For many reasons, the source is factually inaccurate and unacceptable for use. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:33, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- ChrisGualtieri, the reasons you stated above are strong ones, and I felt the comments I made above were sufficiently strong to go in "Survey" rather than "Discussion." The way to stop abuses of power is not to strip away the laws that protect people from abuse of power. Also, "criticism" in the "he should have done something more in line with my politics" is being presented as professional misconduct, as a deliberate attempt to misuse the system and break the rules. In other words, if McCulloch did what he could within the confines of an imperfect justice system, then he can't be faulted for his performance, even if it can't achieve the supposedly desirable result.
- There shouldn't be a double standard with respect to an officer's conduct, but that's not what's being talked about. There is no double standard if police officers have the same standard as other cases of justifiable homicide. (FBI's "Crime in the United States 2013" shows 414 justifiable homicides by police, 3% of the total, and around 281 justifiable homicides by private citizens, with a total of 13,716 murders and cases of non-negligent manslaughter) Roches (talk) 12:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Cwobeel your !vote is somewhat making my larger point I've made elsewhere. If this guys opinion is repetition of other opinion we have, what additional value does it add? If its a widely held opinion, we should say it is a widely held opinion not repeat it 10 times and hope the reader gets the idea. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:23, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Gaijin42: we have agree already, but you need to note the strategy pursued by Gaultieri. He is asserting that the summary should not include any of the criticism, so I am arguing first for the inclusion of the source, and we will worry later about hiow to summarize it. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- My concerns with Nolan and BLP:
- McCulloch's failure to secure an indictment - implies he personally asked for one and then personally failed to get it.
- grand juries are under direction of the prosecution - implies this grand jury was under the personal direction of McCulloch.
- McCulloch did not want to obtain an indictment - implies that McCulloch deliberately obstructed justice in this case.
- McCulloch's decision to allow Wilson to testify - implies he personally made the decision for Wilson to testify.
- Nolan's opinion which invokes McCulloch's name and personally implicates him in a slew of bad conduct, is not suitable under BLP for inclusion in this article. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- This one's actually quite easy. Exceptional claims such as this require exceptional sources and publishers. Nolan is distinctly unexceptional; an anti-police activist, holder of 1- and 2-year degrees from middling colleges; director of 1- and 2-year programs at a below-middling college. And the Daily Beast might as well be an Instagram post; roughly the same reputation for reliability. If this material is still in the article, I will remove it. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Grand jury instructions
I made some changes to the "grand jury instructions" section.
- There is a use of [sic] in what might be originally spoken material.
- Removed the reinterpretation beginning "In other words"
- Koster's statements: Removed "misleading", "admitted" and repetition of "information regarding the use of force ..."
- Jost: Removed "the grand jurors had in mind..." as it is unknown what they were thinking; kept "unring the bell".
- Flanders: changed "laid criticism" to "said"
- Freivogel: removed "to criminalize police action." When a law is found to be unconstitutional, that does not mean that a legislature must, or should, criminalize the opposite of that law.
Please consider these before reverting. In particular, what is at issue here is the use of force against suspects trying to escape. I would imagine many potential jurors have Tennessee v. Garner in their minds already, since the ruling is almost 30 years old. In the Brown case, the use of force was in self-defense, not to prevent escape or effect an arrest. Roches (talk) 11:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- You have made deep changes to that section ignoring what the source says and making your own commentary. You can't do that. If the source says In other words, the prosecutors instructed the jury that they had to find not only that there was probable cause to believe Wilson had committed a crime, but also that he did not act in self-defense and that he did not use lawful force to make an arrest you can't delete that because you think the source is incorrect. We report what reliable sources say, not what we believe is right. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Withdrawing
I am sure that everyone here wants the article to be a great one, after the countless hours that we have invested in it, but give that Wikipedia does not need you, I am removing this article from my watch list for a week at least, and focus on other articles for a while. Have fun and happy editing. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
NPOV/N post
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have made a post at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#How_to_achieve_neutrality to try and get some wider input into the issues we are having here. I have archived the post you are currently reading to avoid forking the discussion any further. Please do not reply here. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Witness accounts
Keeping in mind that a lot of issues are being discussed right now on this talk page, this section needs some attention as well. Currently, Michael Brady, Piaget Crenshaw, Tiffany Mitchell, Construction worker, James McKnight, Phillip Walker, Emanuel Freeman and Bystander heard on video all have their own sub-sections relaying their account in the immediate aftermath of this shooting. Since the release of the gj docs, we now know that at least 60 witnesses testified, so by giving these named individuals above their own sub-sections, it seems to imply to the reader that these individual accounts are more signifcant or carry more weight than the rest who testified. I realize these are only media interviews, but can't we get rid of the individual sub-sections and lump them altogether in a sub-section appropriately titled and summarize their accounts given to the media. Suggestions. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I essentially made the same suggestion a bit ago, but it didn't go anywhere. Talk:Shooting_of_Michael_Brown/Archive_20#More_terse_summaries_in_the_witness_accounts. I absolutely agree that we are giving undue attention to these witnesses relative to all witnesses. I think we should move to high level summaries of the collective (How many said X, how many said Y) and expand on the inconsistency paragraphs since there are so many sources discussing that. Sourcing can be based on sources such as the PBS chart or http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/ferguson-witness-map/ which has a really nifty map that perhaps Cwobeel could reproduce for us. We should wait a bit on going too deep into new content tho as In particular PBS has said they are updating their chart to correct mistakes and to take into account the more recent doc dumpsGaijin42 (talk)
- I made the same point as well and started by removing the age and where they live from the data. I find it hard to see how these Witnesses need such data displayed on a Wikipedia page. Also, Witness 40 has been exposed and insertion would certainly raise BLP privacy concerns since it was by an investigation which unmasked the person and directly provided her life story. I think they call this doxxing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Ronald Sullivan
RFC (Sullivan)
This RfC concerns the following:
Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., director of Harvard Law School's Criminal Justice Institute, said that McCulloch avoided responsibility for the result, calling the case an unusual use of a grand jury's resources.
Reference: Prosecutor's grand jury strategy in Ferguson case adds to controversy
Should this be added back into the article or should this stay out per WP:BLPREMOVE?
Note: This is derived from following material.
"This was a strategic and problematic use of a grand jury to get the result he wanted," said Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., director of the Harvard Criminal Justice Institute at Harvard University. "As a strategic move, it was smart; he got what he wanted without being seen as directly responsible for the result." Sullivan called the case "the most unusual marshaling of a grand jury's resources I've seen in my 25 years as a lawyer and scholar."
Survey (Sullivan)
- Replace because Sullivan raised unsupported claims of bias and deception by McCulloch. The second argument adds nothing that is not already better covered by other sources.[39][40][41] [42] ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Discussion (Sullivan)
The usage in the article is considerably toned down, but it comes from arguments and does not reflect an accurate assessment of Sullivan's opinion. The comment about the "strategic move" suggests a clear bias and that McCulloch "got what he wanted without being seen as directly responsible for the result." a.k.a an accusation of deception and implicit manipulation. It accuses McCulloch of deliberately and knowingly utilizing the grand jury to shield himself from scrutiny following his intention to not get an indictment. This is very serious. The latter comment about it being "most unusual marshaling... I've seen" may indeed be true, but this case was unusual and there are numerous sources with detail both process and the aspects of the case with actual backing. Sullivan's first argument is an attack and the second adds nothing of importance. There is already substantial factual evidence that gives proper context. And others which provide a better and more neutral analysis of the proceedings. Calling this an issue under WP:BLPREMOVE is incorrect because the source does make a BLP violation, but WP:QUESTIONABLE might be the better call since it is unsupported accusations being referenced. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- His opinion was published in the LA Times and it's paraphrased off that, so it's probably an accurate assessment. As for Sullivan himself, he's a law professor at Harvard Law School, director of the Criminal Justice Institute. He seems to be a reliable source for the opinion, looking for third opinions. --RAN1 (talk) 19:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Here's four that don't accuse a person of bias of manipulation.[43][44][45] Though this one claims a consensus it was fair in a normally unfair process. Look, you can argue all day about titles and credentials, but you have no standing to slip unsupported accusations of bias and deception into the article because of it. This goes against WP:BLP. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Look, just because there exist sources that express the opinion that McCulloch acted correctly doesn't negate the presence of sources that express the opposite opinion. Both sides should be represented in what is an extremely controversial situation, notwithstanding that some sources reflect negatively on McCulloch (or even imply that he is biased or deceptive). It is irrelevant whether you or I find those negative statements of opinion to be persuasive or unpersuasive. It is not the job of Wikipedia or its editors to whitewash criticism of McCulloch out of the controversy, and unless the opinions themselves are offered by low-quality sources it in no sense implicates either the letter of WP:BLP or its spirit. Dyrnych (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Here's four that don't accuse a person of bias of manipulation.[43][44][45] Though this one claims a consensus it was fair in a normally unfair process. Look, you can argue all day about titles and credentials, but you have no standing to slip unsupported accusations of bias and deception into the article because of it. This goes against WP:BLP. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ran1's argument seems fairly persuasive. Everything that is negative is not a BLP issue. WP:WELLKNOWN controvercies, reported in reliable sources, and by notable voices are not BLP violations. Really Sullivan's opinion here is not really divergent from others that are even supportive of McColloch, its just a bit sharper in tone. ChrisGualtieri Reliably sourced allegations are not BLP violations. If you continue droning that you are going to end up sanctioned. Some of these sources are problems, but there is no way in helpp that we could call this article neutral without including some of these criticisms, even if the criticisms are flawed. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is not a BLPREMOVE issue. Ran1 took a tiny and the most innocuous fragment of a paragraph and made an RFC on something which has now had the wording repeatedly changed and tone down. This is pretty unfair to compare it to the original one which was highlighted by another editor as being a BLP issue even prior to me. I'm not saying the source should not be used, but why use a bad source when we have a better one? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- If this source fails reliability, it fails verifiability. Ergo, it fails BLPREMOVE. This is effectively a BLPREMOVE issue. Also, bear in mind that the prose is already removed. We're discussing whether to put it back in and an RfC is the best venue for that, even if we have to go through each opinion one-by-one. Also, I hardly see how summarizing someone's opinion, when reliable, verifiable and well-sourced, is "unfair". --RAN1 (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is not a BLPREMOVE issue. Ran1 took a tiny and the most innocuous fragment of a paragraph and made an RFC on something which has now had the wording repeatedly changed and tone down. This is pretty unfair to compare it to the original one which was highlighted by another editor as being a BLP issue even prior to me. I'm not saying the source should not be used, but why use a bad source when we have a better one? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:00, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
My problem with this opinion piece and others like this is the language they use, like in this piece; problematic use of a grand jury. First it indirectly implies by using the language "grand jury" over and over, that the jurors made the wrong decision or did something wrong or were involved with McCulloch in doing something wrong. Second, under MO law it is a legitimate and legal use of a grand jury. This phrase cracks me up - most unusual marshaling of a grand jury's resources I've seen in my 25 years as a lawyer and scholar - seriously? I guess this guy doesn't watch the news or read WP, here are four articles that recently just cropped up about police-officer involved shootings/incidents going to grand juries, Death of Eric Garner, Shooting of Tamir Rice, Shooting of Akai Gurley, Shooting of John Crawford III. It is not an "unusual marshaling of a grand jury's resources" in high-profile cases being driven by media coverage like this for prosecutors to decide on a grand jury. I see no reason to keep it. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:18, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- All of those shootings' grand jury results happened after the grand jury investigation on Wilson concluded no true bill. It may not seem unusual now, but then again Wilson's case was unique in that the documents were released after no true bill. Also, the allegation isn't unsound, the grand jury is under the direction of the prosecution with no cross-examining and no defense. --RAN1 (talk) 21:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- No offense, but check your facts. John Crawford III's grand jury concluded in September. Also... the allegation is unsound because it forgets the grand jury was used to investigate probable cause not essentially certify the pre-screened case. The police investigation was ongoing during the grand jury - which was also unusual. We don't even get to the good and factual criticism because this matter is bogged down in "bias" messes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I didn't check Crawford as well as I did the others, particularly because it wasn't high-profile until the recent protests. Fair enough, but again the grand jury on Wilson's case had documents released, which warrants the opinion. The prosecution's goal is to attain true bill, and the grand jury does not get to hear the defense. Your reasoning for why the allegation is unsound doesn't hold, not to mention it has nothing to do with whether the source is reliable, which is the criterion on which this should have been removed under WP:BLPREMOVE. --RAN1 (talk) 21:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- The goal is not to obtain true bill - that is a simplification. Normally they get it, over 99% of the time, 11 out of 162,000 federal cases, but grand juries are also used to determine if there is probable cause. The prosecution uses grand juries to rubber stamp in common felonies because they are unambiguous and already have screened for probable cause. They do not need exonerating evidence, because that is trial time and this way the defense doesn't get a free pass at it like they do in the preliminary hearing. That >1% of times things get bogged down: state officials, public officials, police officers. There is a deep relationship between the prosecution and the police - there are at least three types of biases that are juror present without prosecutional bias to begin with. The role was unusual, but in like cases... well... police don't typically get indicted and get wide latitude on the issues. Legal experts are not shocked by the case and its clear why, but you can the highlight bias in a process without accusing people of it. Which is what we need to do, not rely on direct accusations of comparisons which condemn. Non-judgemental and disinterested language is our goal, and I think it would be good to draft some examples together. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Some legal experts are not shocked by the case—namely, the ones that you continue to highlight as dispositive of the controversy. Others express differing opinions—namely, the ones that others have highlighted as reflecting the controversy. Dyrnych (talk) 22:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- You make a good argument, but those that agree and disagree with the decision acknowledge numerous forms of potential bias.[46] Certainly seems relevant and important to establish context without passing judgement. Allegations can be given space, but WP:BALASPS makes it awkward to have 16 different commentators the grand jury result be as long as the entire grand jury information section. I'm trying to consider the whole and the article is swinging from slanted, to beyond neutral and now into the other side by reduplicating similar talking points. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- The legal experts that the Washington Times article's author consulted do claim that the grand jury process was more fair than a typical grand jury process. However, others legal experts disagree, enough so that I wonder whether the Times was interested in capturing a sample of all relevant opinion. Additionally, the notion that this process—even if more fair than a typical grand jury process—should be one that a police officer receives the benefit of (where an ordinary citizen would not) is itself controversial, something other sources have noted. Dyrnych (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Mmmmm, I've made that argument as well. Given the lack of academic analysis, given it is a recent event, I'd like to mirror our FAs on this - but I suppose this section will be too volatile for the time being. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:10, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- The legal experts that the Washington Times article's author consulted do claim that the grand jury process was more fair than a typical grand jury process. However, others legal experts disagree, enough so that I wonder whether the Times was interested in capturing a sample of all relevant opinion. Additionally, the notion that this process—even if more fair than a typical grand jury process—should be one that a police officer receives the benefit of (where an ordinary citizen would not) is itself controversial, something other sources have noted. Dyrnych (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- You make a good argument, but those that agree and disagree with the decision acknowledge numerous forms of potential bias.[46] Certainly seems relevant and important to establish context without passing judgement. Allegations can be given space, but WP:BALASPS makes it awkward to have 16 different commentators the grand jury result be as long as the entire grand jury information section. I'm trying to consider the whole and the article is swinging from slanted, to beyond neutral and now into the other side by reduplicating similar talking points. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Some legal experts are not shocked by the case—namely, the ones that you continue to highlight as dispositive of the controversy. Others express differing opinions—namely, the ones that others have highlighted as reflecting the controversy. Dyrnych (talk) 22:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- The goal is not to obtain true bill - that is a simplification. Normally they get it, over 99% of the time, 11 out of 162,000 federal cases, but grand juries are also used to determine if there is probable cause. The prosecution uses grand juries to rubber stamp in common felonies because they are unambiguous and already have screened for probable cause. They do not need exonerating evidence, because that is trial time and this way the defense doesn't get a free pass at it like they do in the preliminary hearing. That >1% of times things get bogged down: state officials, public officials, police officers. There is a deep relationship between the prosecution and the police - there are at least three types of biases that are juror present without prosecutional bias to begin with. The role was unusual, but in like cases... well... police don't typically get indicted and get wide latitude on the issues. Legal experts are not shocked by the case and its clear why, but you can the highlight bias in a process without accusing people of it. Which is what we need to do, not rely on direct accusations of comparisons which condemn. Non-judgemental and disinterested language is our goal, and I think it would be good to draft some examples together. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- I didn't check Crawford as well as I did the others, particularly because it wasn't high-profile until the recent protests. Fair enough, but again the grand jury on Wilson's case had documents released, which warrants the opinion. The prosecution's goal is to attain true bill, and the grand jury does not get to hear the defense. Your reasoning for why the allegation is unsound doesn't hold, not to mention it has nothing to do with whether the source is reliable, which is the criterion on which this should have been removed under WP:BLPREMOVE. --RAN1 (talk) 21:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- No offense, but check your facts. John Crawford III's grand jury concluded in September. Also... the allegation is unsound because it forgets the grand jury was used to investigate probable cause not essentially certify the pre-screened case. The police investigation was ongoing during the grand jury - which was also unusual. We don't even get to the good and factual criticism because this matter is bogged down in "bias" messes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Jeffrey Toobin in context
Now I know why the LA Times source using Toobin was irritating me: it is completely out of context.
From the LA Times - the argument being advanced by the LA Times is actually:
"Jeffrey Toobin, a legal analyst writing in the New Yorker, accused McCulloch of using the Wilson case for "a document dump, an approach that is virtually without precedent in the law of Missouri or anywhere else.
The use in the article was:
Jeffrey Toobin, a legal analyst for CNN and The New Yorker, criticized McCulloch for implementing "a document dump, an approach that is virtually without precedent in the law of Missouri or anywhere else".
There is no context, no backing up of statements. Why? It is not actually Toobin talking to LA Times it is actually a snippet pulled from Toobins How Not to Use a Grand Jury article in the New Yorker. The actual argument is more nuanced.
"But the goal of criminal law is to be fair—to treat similarly situated people similarly—as well as to reach just results. McCulloch gave Wilson’s case special treatment. He turned it over to the grand jury, a rarity itself, and then used the investigation as a document dump, an approach that is virtually without precedent in the law of Missouri or anywhere else. Buried underneath every scrap of evidence McCulloch could find, the grand jury threw up its hands and said that a crime could not be proved. This is the opposite of the customary ham-sandwich approach, in which the jurors are explicitly steered to the prosecutor’s preferred conclusion."
Toobin's piece is actually concerned with the fact that the case was unique and contrary to all the expectations and normal operation of the grand jury system. This is coupled with the document release and a prosecution which is not pushing hard an indictment on a charge and using only implicating evidence. Toobin actually reflects a different and more complex view in the full piece than that little and poorly chosen snippet. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Are you ok with me making a summary of Toobin's full opinion as stated by the New Yorker and then including it in the article, or do you still think it's a BLP violation? --RAN1 (talk) 00:13, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Toobin's use in the LA Times article was a snippet which contained a factual inaccuracy - it was not a BLP issue. Sullivan and Cohen's arguments rest upon accusations. Also, Toobin made a statement that McCulloch's decision to take the case to the grand jury was rare, its just a poor accusation which is pretty irrelevant to the actual conclusion. The prosecution had three options, no attempt to file charges, grand jury or preliminary hearing - "context-checked" that's an issue, but it is unrelated to the conclusion. Toobin's full article deserves placement because it doesn't actually require its arguments be based on a BLP issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- This illustrates the larger point of context matters, and there is no doubt that these opinion pieces offer valid criticism when taken in context. Here's another opinion piece that was previously in the article that was cherry-picked to offer a negative snippet when it could have actually been used if offered in context, the author opined that
"McCulloch’s clumsy effort to shift responsibility for the decision not to charge Wilson from his office to the grand jury underscored the universal need of local prosecutors to maintain smooth relations with the police"
"cases of suspected police bias and brutality should automatically be transferred to independent prosecutors whose ability to do their jobs is not dependent upon their standing with the local police"
"there is an inherent conflict of interest in giving local prosecutors so much control over the decision whether to charge police for allegations of bias or excessive use of force — and a compelling need for an independent special prosecutor to handle such cases from start to finish"
- I think we should do as RAN1 suggested and summarize some of the full opinions in context and try to agree on a reasonable number for inclusion, maybe 4,5,6,7,8,9??-- Isaidnoway (talk) 01:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I decided to run a search to see if the other two published their full opinions anywhere else. A search on Sullivan only turns up verbatim reposts of his opinion, and Fordham University only has a repost of the LA Times for Cohen. I'm all for paraphrasing Toobin's opinion, and I'll likely get to it tomorrow. --RAN1 (talk) 05:29, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cohen has been given space in the Garner situation, but it portrays the comments as theory and takes a second comment only to quickly deflate it.Source. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I decided to run a search to see if the other two published their full opinions anywhere else. A search on Sullivan only turns up verbatim reposts of his opinion, and Fordham University only has a repost of the LA Times for Cohen. I'm all for paraphrasing Toobin's opinion, and I'll likely get to it tomorrow. --RAN1 (talk) 05:29, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Toobin's use in the LA Times article was a snippet which contained a factual inaccuracy - it was not a BLP issue. Sullivan and Cohen's arguments rest upon accusations. Also, Toobin made a statement that McCulloch's decision to take the case to the grand jury was rare, its just a poor accusation which is pretty irrelevant to the actual conclusion. The prosecution had three options, no attempt to file charges, grand jury or preliminary hearing - "context-checked" that's an issue, but it is unrelated to the conclusion. Toobin's full article deserves placement because it doesn't actually require its arguments be based on a BLP issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Archive bot failure
Is this something we need to forward to the bot's talk page? I don't like the idea of having expired conversations lingering around on this >400KB page. --RAN1 (talk) 05:01, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Could be a transient error. I'd suggest waiting to see if it fails again tomorrow. The >400KB won't get that much worse in 24 hours. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 05:16, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
404 references
- https://www.gofundme.com/OfficerWilsonFundraiser
- http://www.gofundme.com/justiceformikebrown
- http://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson
- http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article1290626.html
- http://www.kvor.com/common/more.php?m=58&ts=1408128601&article=C5DC142224A811E4B51EFEFDADE6840A&mode=2
- http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/michael-brown-s-fatal-shooting-by-police-sparks-outcry-1.9018258
- http://www.stltoday.com/news/state-and-regional/missouri/ferguson-police-chief-cedes-much-of-his-authority/article_9d1332ae-c2d8-5ba2-8893-d33f9ab6c23c.html
- http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion/their-opinion/columnists-blogs/guest-columnists/silver-a-hopeless-conflict-of-interests/article_474455e3-44c5-5d03-b987-f95ea6abb6bd.html
- http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ferguson-takes-stock-after-rage-over-grand-jury-decision/
Just a list of broken and 404 websites. Some of them may not be necessary to use anymore. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:57, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Silvers and others
So far, no less than 5 severe cases of misrepresentation of the sources has been found in the immediate controversy section. The origin of this material is not relevant for this discussion, but it is indicative of false and poor attempt to construct a narrative. It serves as a laundry list of extremely weak and out of context arguments, some times at odds with their very words. The Jay Sterling Silver piece mirrors those like Jeffrey Toobin's comments, which was taken out of context by the LA Times and essentially transplanted into the article. But unlike Toobin's article, the Silver piece actually and deliberately represents a tiny fragment being used improperly. Silver actually concludes the piece by stating: "The conflict of interest at the core of the grand jury process and the pass given to police who kill civilians are an abuse of authority of a kind that, a long time ago, our system of government was established to allay."
It seems clear, that blind accusations against process and speaking is not the real issue of Toobin or Silver, but wider and deeper problems of law enforcement having an unchecked conflict of interest. Those working with the process realize that the grand jury cases involving police officers are unusual, but the process shown before the public was not unusual when it comes to law enforcement. Callan says that in these cases, all evidence is presented even if the prosecution believes there was no crime committed. Many of the sources all mirror this aspect and at last the intention and arguments of these experts and others are being fairly and properly acknowledged. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:32, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Another misrepresentation with the construction using the words of Ben Trachtenberg was removed. The article titled "Grand jury charges are easy, except against police" is more commentary about the conflict of interest and treatment of police officers by grand juries. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those authors do appear to be talking about a larger problem, but they are talking about his case as an example of that larger problem. How is that not a legitimate opinion about this case? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- We have numerous of these quotes and argument that we are trying to trim down to prose. Given that Silver's arguments were duplicative and the usage in the article was misrepresented, I removed it for now. Same with Ben Trachtenberg whose comments to give context was used with implications in the article. There use represents the established viewpoint, but the selective usage in the article is just not as strong as say Toobin and others. Let's use authoritative pieces not limited to a sentence or two as the basis for a named and credentialed citation in the article. We had 16, but now we can narrow it down some. The sources are fine as a whole, but the "named party" approach has lead to some issues. In the interim, I think this is a good point to balance with and discuss with WP:UNDUE instead of just WP:NPOV. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- IF there is a version of this POV you do think merits inclusion, why not paraphrase it, and say "A (source), B, (source) and others (source, source, source) say 'X is a problem'" which keeps the citations in, as well as the fact that this is not a unique opinion, without causing undue repetition of the opinion? Gaijin42 (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Question Gaijin - if we already have numerous views, represented better by better sources, why do we need to reduplicate them? I removed the Source with Kuby. The source (not Kuby) is factually inaccurate to downright deliberately misleading. Even the images, while well-drawn does not become even close to the forensic data. It is just entirely wrong and framed so poorly that I simply cannot in good-faith see it attributed to a person like Kuby. The source is blatantly dishonest and I have a striking feeling that Kuby is misrepresented as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Reducing every POV to a single voice is going to cause problems with WP:NPOV in particular creating a False Balance. That a source has other statements or information in it, and that those other bits may be problematic, THAT WE AREN'T USING, does not cause problems for the part we do use. Your interpretation of WP:RS is quite a bit different than the standard version, and it is the root cause of most of the friction you are experiencing here. We don't get to impeach reliable sources. We can present Wikipedia:Conflicting_sources, but we don't get to pick WP:Truth Gaijin42 (talk) 17:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Question Gaijin - if we already have numerous views, represented better by better sources, why do we need to reduplicate them? I removed the Source with Kuby. The source (not Kuby) is factually inaccurate to downright deliberately misleading. Even the images, while well-drawn does not become even close to the forensic data. It is just entirely wrong and framed so poorly that I simply cannot in good-faith see it attributed to a person like Kuby. The source is blatantly dishonest and I have a striking feeling that Kuby is misrepresented as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- IF there is a version of this POV you do think merits inclusion, why not paraphrase it, and say "A (source), B, (source) and others (source, source, source) say 'X is a problem'" which keeps the citations in, as well as the fact that this is not a unique opinion, without causing undue repetition of the opinion? Gaijin42 (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- We have numerous of these quotes and argument that we are trying to trim down to prose. Given that Silver's arguments were duplicative and the usage in the article was misrepresented, I removed it for now. Same with Ben Trachtenberg whose comments to give context was used with implications in the article. There use represents the established viewpoint, but the selective usage in the article is just not as strong as say Toobin and others. Let's use authoritative pieces not limited to a sentence or two as the basis for a named and credentialed citation in the article. We had 16, but now we can narrow it down some. The sources are fine as a whole, but the "named party" approach has lead to some issues. In the interim, I think this is a good point to balance with and discuss with WP:UNDUE instead of just WP:NPOV. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those authors do appear to be talking about a larger problem, but they are talking about his case as an example of that larger problem. How is that not a legitimate opinion about this case? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
ChrisGualtieri Would you consider changing your process? It seems you agree that the aggregate POVs about issues with the case/GJ process/Prosecutor actions are notable, but you have issues with individual sources backing those POVs. Would you consider adding the version of the POV that you think is compliant, BEFORE OR SIMULTANIOUS TO removing the version you think has issues? In this way you can advance your goal of BLP while still preserving NPOV and not leaving the impression you are whitewashing the controversy? Also this leaves a starting point for others to tweak and improve the summarized version.Gaijin42 (talk) 17:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Gaijin42:If all we are doing is going to add more POVs the length will continue to grow. Getting it to 6-8 at most for this "reaction" section would be proper. I don't see what "POV" you are referring to, because they already have 6 other ones of similar nature. Could clarify what POV you think this source applies and how it is unique. I do not understand what makes this one non-duplicative. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:05, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- The "similar nature" is the POV I am talking about. IF we have a statement from X, Y, and Z all making duplicate criticism right now and you have issue with the wording/sourcing of Z, rather than eliminate Z, combine X, Y and Z into a combined POV statement that is attributed to all 3. That way the weight of "how many people say this" is preserved, while reducing technicality issues about the way a particular guys quote reads. Every statement probably has issues. In aggregate though, the general POV of that criticism is still notable. Im saying to make the improved version, prior to removing the individual version. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:37, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ah that does make more sense now. You do make a good point about removing first... I'll have to curb when it is not a BLP issue. The only concern I have about your suggestion is that if we have problems with the source being factually accurate - regardless of its slant - is that proper? In this case, are we still not using a questionable source when X and Y are fine? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:02, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Notable opinions implying incorrect facts still need to be included per WP:NPOV. Find a source saying that opinion is factually incorrect and include that too. Wikipedia:Conflicting sources. In the future there will be better, academic WP:RS/AC quality sources we can use and if that time the "official answer" moves to discount these wrong opinions, we can remove them. But we can't remove them now. Even if these opinions are wrong, we can't just pretend they don't exist. They are a major part of the story and we have to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE. Anything else is WP:OR Gaijin42 (talk) 19:07, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is when you write them as fact or imply a wrongdoing. Also, if you are going to insert something proven to be false without stating it is false, that is an issue. Which brings up why we would make the editorial decision to include something which is at clear odds with the facts. See the problem is while I cannot find any unique or valuable in that source, perhaps you pick a part to include since right now we have nothing to actually debate for inclusion - it seems like we are just discussing hypothetical. Each case is unique, but without a case I hate to a POVs to include without analyzing and seeing whether or not it makes a case based on fact. This is one which questions whether whites in America even think of blacks as humans since the narrative and entertainment portrayals of an entire race as fantasy characters]. Non-United States opinions and analysis of the situation is through a very different lens and can be useful. But I'd like to see the content before passing judgement - since I disregard the removed source as anything worthy of inclusion. Its an editorial decision of mine based on all the problems with it, but I'll gladly review a specific inclusion if you had one in mind. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Evaluating the Kuby source
The NY Daily News may normally be a RS - but your argument of WP:TRUTH is exactly the relevant essay here because "sources are not infallible. There are examples where material should not be reported in Wikipedia's voice, because what is verifiable is that the source expresses a view, not that the view is necessarily accurate."
This source is a misrepresentation because it ignores the forensic reports for disputed witness accounts. It pushes that Wilson's word was given full weight over witnesses - and implies that Witnesses with differing statements were ridiculed. Was not Witness 40 exposed, condemned, dismissed, and later identified by the media so blatantly unreliable and supporting Wilson's testimony? Is it not dishonest to gloss section 3-4 or even acknowledge Brown was shot and injured before running? Kuby may have a questionable reputation, but Wilson giving testimony without counsel present is rare and allows the prosecution to use that against Wilson at trial. Cases like this, letting them talk and talk, is waiving of the 5th amendment rights and represents immense risk to the defense. I get that an opinion is an opinion and that opinion may be relevant, but the source is very misleading and deceptive in its presentation which questions its reliability given its ignorance of facts for proven unreliable witness comments. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:59, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Chris, it looks like you're substituting your judgment for Kuby's in order to claim that it's misleading and deceptive. No offense meant, but I doubt you're a legal expert. Kuby is. I don't think that it's appropriate in any way for you, on your own initiative and with your own analysis as the rubric, to make these kind of assessments of the validity of others' opinions. Dyrnych (talk) 18:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
"Opinions are usable as opinions" even if they are based on faulty information. However, where Wikipedia uses material with incorrect rendition of fact cited as fact, once such a source is shown to be errant in statements of fact, we should remove the source as a cite for such misstatements of fact. Collect (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's useful to note that said essay states: "Even the most reliable sources commit mistakes from time to time, such as misspelling a name or getting some detail wrong. Such mistakes, when found, should be ignored, and not be employed to describe a non-existent dispute." Somehow I get the impression that this is being applied to sources that are contentious under BLP for the sake of implicating them as wrong. Wilson giving testimony under grand jury would not even be usable in an actual trial case since McCulloch stated he would not release the documents if the grand jury gave true bill. I see the smoke, but where's the fire? --RAN1 (talk) 20:40, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- They wouldn't be usable for us, but they would certainly be usable in the trial itself (and if introduced into evidence there, would then be available to us probably). Not sure which you meant. Gaijin42 (talk)
- Grand jury proceedings are usually kept secret, so they wouldn't be available to the trial itself, even if the prosecution wanted to use it as evidence. --RAN1 (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I promise you, grand jury testimony can be (and is) used as evidence at trial. Usually it's hearsay, but there are all sorts of exceptions to the hearsay rule. Dyrnych (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Grand jury testimony can be used at a trial in MO, especially if the prosecutor wants to use it to impeach a previous statement they testified to. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:34, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I promise you, grand jury testimony can be (and is) used as evidence at trial. Usually it's hearsay, but there are all sorts of exceptions to the hearsay rule. Dyrnych (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Grand jury proceedings are usually kept secret, so they wouldn't be available to the trial itself, even if the prosecution wanted to use it as evidence. --RAN1 (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- They wouldn't be usable for us, but they would certainly be usable in the trial itself (and if introduced into evidence there, would then be available to us probably). Not sure which you meant. Gaijin42 (talk)
- Testimony is taken "under oath" so anything stated "under oath" may be admissible in a trial, subject, of course, to rulings on relevance, etc. Statements to police etc., while not "under oath" also may be admissible, as lying to the police is a crime in general. Collect (talk) 23:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
As Collect said. The more the defendant blabs to the grand jury the better the chances of giving ammunition in the trial. It is highly encouraged to "keep them talking" with "softball" questions for this reason. A key part of this, and why it is so dangerous for the defendant, is that legal counsel is not present to guide them. Also... this line of reasoning extends towards several conclusions - all with "fairness" or "extreme and almost unbelievable stupidity" as the terminus. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- We shouldn't rule out the fact that Wilson had attorneys, and so had the ability to choose his words carefully. The implication that's commonly drawn in the critical opinions here is that Wilson testified in his own defense, and McCulloch allowed him to do so. Even discounting that, it's still dubious at best. --RAN1 (talk) 01:47, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I swear a FAQ needs to be given on grand jury processes for this page... Legal counsel cannot be present in the room with the grand jury or intervene with counsel to questions. "McCulloch allowed him to do so" is an assumption and a pretty personal accusation of authority which doesn't actually exist. McCulloch has case assistants and the grand jury can call witnesses. Furthermore, the law gets extremely complex with some jurisdictions requiring that the subject be given the right to speak and that this right is pushed by the defense lawyers and can compel the prosecution under penalty of having the indictment thrown out. I do not know who "authorized it", but in absence of that knowledge, we do not levee it as "fact". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Grand juries in the United States could use some touching up. --RAN1 (talk) 03:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I swear a FAQ needs to be given on grand jury processes for this page... Legal counsel cannot be present in the room with the grand jury or intervene with counsel to questions. "McCulloch allowed him to do so" is an assumption and a pretty personal accusation of authority which doesn't actually exist. McCulloch has case assistants and the grand jury can call witnesses. Furthermore, the law gets extremely complex with some jurisdictions requiring that the subject be given the right to speak and that this right is pushed by the defense lawyers and can compel the prosecution under penalty of having the indictment thrown out. I do not know who "authorized it", but in absence of that knowledge, we do not levee it as "fact". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
McCulloch investigation called for
Here's a fun tidbit from the AP as reposted by ABC: [47]. Gonna go ahead and include this in the article. --RAN1 (talk) 03:06, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- This seems like WP:CRYSTAL or posturing to me. The chance of this actually going somewhere is very very unlikley. It should have minimal to no coverage in the article, and I'm leaning towards no. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:15, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I was thinking it should have a sentence in the Other section, but then again I've self-reverted. It's definitely posturing at best. --RAN1 (talk) 03:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- On second thought: "State Rep. Karla May is pushing for a state investigation, [...]"; and then "A joint House and Senate committee is already investigating why Gov. Jay Nixon did not use National Guard troops in Ferguson on Nov. 24. May, a St. Louis Democrat, sent a letter Thursday to committee chairman Sen. Kurt Schaefer [...]". That's a red flag you don't usually see. Not sure if it's good reason to keep it out though. --RAN1 (talk) 03:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those seem like very unrelated efforts? the investigation may be notable, but we should be clear the concept here is probably more "figure out what happened, try to fire (are prosecutors elected or appointed in MO?)" investigation, not "investigate so he can be brought up on charges". McColloch almost certainly has qualified immunity for his actions (even if they were bad), and incompetence or indifference from the governor are not crimes. Impeachment is a possibility, ironically the GOP was just trying to impeach him for unrelated matters. Perhaps there could be some bipartisan action there.It still seems iffy to me though, until something more concrete comes out. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:50, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Attorneys seem to be appointed lawyers in MO. Mind you there are rules of professional conduct for lawyers in MO, and as far as I can see there's no immunity for state attorneys. Ultimately though this is heavy on the crystal ball and light on details, so I'll keep this out for now. --RAN1 (talk) 04:14, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those seem like very unrelated efforts? the investigation may be notable, but we should be clear the concept here is probably more "figure out what happened, try to fire (are prosecutors elected or appointed in MO?)" investigation, not "investigate so he can be brought up on charges". McColloch almost certainly has qualified immunity for his actions (even if they were bad), and incompetence or indifference from the governor are not crimes. Impeachment is a possibility, ironically the GOP was just trying to impeach him for unrelated matters. Perhaps there could be some bipartisan action there.It still seems iffy to me though, until something more concrete comes out. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:50, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- On second thought: "State Rep. Karla May is pushing for a state investigation, [...]"; and then "A joint House and Senate committee is already investigating why Gov. Jay Nixon did not use National Guard troops in Ferguson on Nov. 24. May, a St. Louis Democrat, sent a letter Thursday to committee chairman Sen. Kurt Schaefer [...]". That's a red flag you don't usually see. Not sure if it's good reason to keep it out though. --RAN1 (talk) 03:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I was thinking it should have a sentence in the Other section, but then again I've self-reverted. It's definitely posturing at best. --RAN1 (talk) 03:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
According to this MO bar publication they have full imunity for actions taken during a case http://www.mobar.org/uploadedfiles/home/publications/journal/2013/03-04/lies.pdf based on Imbler v. Pachtman (which would mean that applies to every prosecutor everywhere). This view seems to be backed up by http://www.scotusblog.com/2009/11/how-broad-is-prosecutorial-immunity/ so that really puts the first story deep into the posturing bucket. This wasn't in a trial, and the question of how for that immunity extends is a bit of an open question as Pottowatami v McGhee was settled before SCOTUS ruled on it, but still seems like a stretch Gaijin42 (talk) 04:22, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ultimately he could be censured or fired, or the bar could disbar him, but those are all WP:CRYSTAL until something more concrete happens. Gaijin42 (talk) 04:32, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
NPOV tag removed
I've removed the tag, since most of the major concerns have been resolved. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:44, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Organized
I reorganized a bunch of the sections for flow and presentation. The incident, investigations, evidence and witness accounts should all come before the grand jury section. After this, the public responses are broken up by section with Aftermath representing the results and lasting impact of the events. Right now, it is not in its final form and some things need to be trimmed and have context added now. 2014 Ferguson unrest is a good timeline to work off of. "Robbery incident report and video release" seems excessive, but "Public response" is more than half of this article and the entirety of another. I know it was a bunch of bold and complex re-organizing, but can anyone honestly support having plain facts surrounded by.... "controversy"? The "Robbery incident report and video release" has so much redundant and quotations and accusations that it is distracting. The additions to Shooting of Michael Brown#Shooting section has resolved quite a few side points. It is far from perfect... but it is progress. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- And please, if you have a problem with the flow of the public response - fix it. I'll be working more on this later today to resolve some more complex issues with it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:46, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm in support of reactions getting a unified section. The way it grew out was that the grand jury received its own minor reaction section when it was a minor issue, until it wasn't. Having it separated like this is a boon at any rate; the article doesn't shift perspective every 10 lines anymore. --RAN1 (talk) 07:49, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Dispute tags
I will add dispute tags, given the massive unilateral actions by a single editor to improve the article. While I don't doubt he acted in good faith, the current state of the article does not reflect the abundant sources on this incident and presents a slanted viewpoint, with false balance, UNDUE weight, and lack of NPOV:
- The "Shooting" section is now solely based on a timeline of events was reported by police, and does not describe the shooting itself. This article is not a Police report on the shooting of Michael Brown
- The "Shooting" section contains the robbery, which was unrelated to the shooting, thus forwarding the POV that the two were connected, when we know quite well now that although plausible, it is not confirmed and there were conflicting reports and there are still doubts in that regard.
- Most, if not all the witness reports have been reduced to "Witness accounts in the media", while Wilson's testimony has been kept in full. Only one hand jury witness testimony is presented in the article.
- The "Reactions" section has been decimated, and collapsed into a "Public response" section containing public reactions, official reactions, international reactions, as if these were just an afterthought and breaking the chronological narrative in the article. This approach is not NPOV, as it removes the context on the aftermath of the shooting
- Controversial aspects related to the release of the videotape, has been moved to the "Public reaction" section down the page and not positioned chronologically in the article
- The Commentary by legal sources present a false balance. There is an overwhelming number of sources that found the Grand Jury proceedings and the role of the prosecutor's office to be highly unusual.
- Cwobeel (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Typically, and I mean this, we present undisputed facts and key information which puts the pieces in order. The police record reports, such as dispatch are not in dispute. Provide credible evidence otherwise. The flow of events indeed did begin with Wilson already being in the area and Brown committing the robbery. Please give specifics as to what is "wrong" about the information.
- The article is still being worked on, and Wilson's testimony is going to get shrunk down as well. Everything in time. So much of it is duplicated and irrelevant to the situation.
- At the top of the page: "This article is about the shooting of Michael Brown. For the protests that followed, see 2014 Ferguson unrest." I do not see why we need to duplicate the entirety. Some of the information will be carried back over in summary style.
- Are you suggesting that the video tape and robbery information release is directly causative of the death of Michael Brown? The release was controversial, not what it depicts. I think this is handled much better now than the perspective shifting done every 10 lines which makes it nearly impossible to parse the article without "commentary" in all directions.
- Sample size and basic facts are important when determining relevance and prominence of incidents. Just like the video release was criticized, so was the grand jury outcome. If you keep pulling from the week of November 24, of course you are going to get more issues than reality. This section has way too much commentary and actually very little context. All things are able to be addressed in due time.
This article is meant to inform the reader as to what happened and the result. This is not an article about "when X happened and what Y said and Z said". It impossible to properly cut through the fog of "breaking news" under these circumstances. It is important to lay out the information and then get to related issues. The article is not in its final form and it is far from being complete. For someone "taking a week off" from the article - you sure jumped back in quickly. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:01, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Moved the previous "Shooting" section to a different section, named "Chronology of incidents reported by police", and added a preceding section "Shooting" with the undisputed facts about the shooting incident itself. Also restored a number of national and international reactions to the shooting which were deleted without discussion. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:00, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- By collapsing the two sections you are asserting a certain POV. Let's keep these two distinct and let the readers reach their own conclusions. You have edited 3 days, and more than 100 almost consecutive edits so please accept the collaborative effort and look for ways to compromise rather than protect "your version". Thank you for your understanding. If we have a disagreement, best would be to file an RFC. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:15, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Revenge murders
Are we adding into this article those "revenge murders" of two NYDP officers that occurred yesterday? Sources are claiming that the murderer expressed revenge against police for the deaths of Brown (and Eric Garner). Should this be added into this article? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:33, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Let's give this some time. It is still too soon for this. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:44, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- How so? CNN is a reliable source: 2 NYPD police officers 'assassinated'; shooter dead. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:41, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Cwobeel
Cwobeel asserts that the "Shooting" now re-named "Chronology of incidents reported by police" violates NPOV and should not be in a section describing the shooting itself. Cwobeel seems to be indicating that this is "police lies" and says that undisputed records are "pushing a POV". Cwobeel as admitted a bias to Gaijin42 on Gaijin42's talk page, but I fail to see why Cwobeel needs to continually push extremes and conspiracies as facts. Cwobeel added this clarification tag to this section
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch said that if the timing was accurate, between a witness's Twitter post{{clarify|date=December 2014}} and the police dispatch, it would mean "less than 61 seconds had passed after the dispatcher acknowledged that Wilson had stopped two men".
The St. Louis Post Dispatch is the one providing this, but is it not sufficient context? Do we need to link "Twitter"? The unnamed witness who became an unwitting data point in the timeline? Cwobeel seems more concerned with trying to advance these conspiracies and attacks against authority than actually reflect the situation or the sources covered. Cwobeel is actually reinserting the very tedious and confusing "chronology" aspect despite the existence of a page dedicated to it: 2014 Ferguson unrest. Despite having previously discussed the reintegration of the timeline "Reactions" and the problems of this "by chronology" the article is becoming again very confusing and difficult to parse. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:32, 21 December 2014 (UTC)