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I would suggest to BalkanFever not to revert without discussing first - otherwise the next thing I will do is turn to an administrator. 12:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC) |
I would suggest to BalkanFever not to revert without discussing first - otherwise the next thing I will do is turn to an administrator. 12:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:I would suggest you tone down the POV-pushing. Feel free to add the stuff calling it a Bulgarian dialect, but you completely raped the previous intro, which described it as a transitional dialect anyway. '''[[User:BalkanFever|<font color="black">Balkan</font>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<font color="#008">Fever</font>]]''' 12:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC) |
:I would suggest you tone down the POV-pushing. Feel free to add the stuff calling it a Bulgarian dialect, but you completely raped the previous intro, which described it as a transitional dialect anyway. '''[[User:BalkanFever|<font color="black">Balkan</font>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<font color="#008">Fever</font>]]''' 12:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC) |
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== Falsified sources == |
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According to the articles quoted in [[Slavic language (Greece)]], Trudgill explicitly subsumes all forms of Slavic in Greece except those of the Pomaks under Macedonian on his sociolinguistic criteria. This clearly includes the Serres-Drama dialects (although he would of course count the speakers accross the border as Bulgarian). Schmieger constructs an actual linguistic boundary on dialect grounds, a bit further west than Trudgill, but apparently ''not'' at Yat boundary to the west of this dialect; he includes only "the far east of Greek Macedonia [...] the region around Kavala and in the Rhodope Mountains, as well as the eastern part of Drama nomos" as Bulgarian. It seems clear that this does not cover Serres and Drama itself but means a different dialect area to the east of it. Quoting these two authors as saying that this dialect as a whole is solidly part of Bulgarian as opposed to Macedonian is blatant falsification. |
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Behaviour like this from disruptive tendentious editors like {{user|VMORO}} will not be tolerated. VMORO, you may not have noticed it, but we are no longer in 2005 here. Please have a look at [[WP:ARBMAC]] and consider yourself warned. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:27, 15 July 2008
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Extremely biased article showing only one viewpoint.
The article is dedicated to the so called Macedonian language which hadn`t existed till the late 40`s.Fact.Furthermore, the content is extremely biased and represents only a certain viewpoint.More than half of what are supposed to be specifics of the local dialects is in fact literary Bulgarian language.And the almost everything from the rest is much closer to Veliko Turnovo`s dialect(literary Bulgarian) than to literary Macedonian which was codified on the bases of several dialects from the central parts of Vardar Macedonia.--BulgarianPatriot (talk) 07:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
- The dialect is transitional between the (other) dialects of the Macedonian language and the (other) dialects of the Bulgarian language. BalkanFever 08:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Severe problems with the article
The article is not just biased, it is simply wrong, including the examples where half of them seem to be taken from Dojran or Maleshevo:
- the presence of mutation ja/e (typical only for Eastern Bulgarian) misrepresented as a/e
- use of consonant group -šč- - incorrect, it is sht (Friedman also has it), even there is example (again incorrect but this time the vowel) in the article - Кушта/Kušta which proves it is sht
- use ov vocalic r and l - completely incorrect, even Friedman (who is strongly pro-Macedonian) lists ръ (rə)/лъ (lə) here
- Retention of Proto-Slavic nasal vowels - again incorrect, this is a feature typical for several villages (even not all!!) in the Lagadina region (which should be taken out as a separate article as it is completely different from the Serres-Nevrokop dialect) and it is not a nasal vowel but combination (ən)
- Кушта/Kušta or "со рака" - completely incorrect, Friedman unequivocally says the reflex of yus and ъ is only ъ (ə), so it is къшта, с ръка
and so on and so on, and so on
Furthermore - the examples are practically identical to the ones quoted in Maleševo-Pirin dialect (they are actually correct for Maleshevo and partly correct for Pirin) so I suspect copy-paste from that article.
The "traditional" song also shows significant deviations from the actual vowels that exist in the dialect (Првиот instead of Първийъ, vocalic r {врвеја, Кршисер) - which does not exist the dialect, напијам instead of напија, etc. etc.)
- 1) I am putting the song on the talk page
- 2) I have added a table comparing the dialect with Standard Bulgarian and Standard Macedonian which also includes the previous salvageable examples
- 3) I am putting the map on the talk page (relationship to Macedonian unproven and dubious)
The Serres-Nevrokop dialect can be a dialect of Macedonian (or a transitional dialect) if:
- 1) It is close phonologically to or at least contains a couple of features common to Macedonian and different from Bulgarian - it does not
- 2) It is spoken by people who identify as Macedonians - where are they? The ones living in Pirin Macedonia identify themselves as Bulgarians and the sources I've provided explicitly prove wide-scale migration of the ones living in Greece to Bulgaria - where they again identify themselves as Bulgarians.
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png/300px-Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png)
Examples of the dialect
- Traditional song:
- Четворица кумити
- низ Кршисер врвеја.
- Низ Кршисер врвеја,
- право Гари влегоја.
- Првиот беше, врвеше,
- Стојанчо Паун кумита.
- Други ми беше, врвеше,
- Стефанов Мицо кумита.
- Трети ми беше, врвеше,
- Алексо Кирко кумита.
- Четврти беше, врвеше,
- Пејданчо Блажо, кумита.
- Чукат, чукат на врата:
- - Отвори млада невесто.
- Отвори млада невесто,
- невесто млада Стојанице.
- Она си слезе од чардак
- и си вратата отвори.
- - Добро вечер, невесто!
- - Дал бог добро, кумити!
- Стојан си вели, говори:
- - Невесто млада, Стојанице,
- качи се горе в' одаја,
- отвори долап мусандра.
- Извади шише ракија,
- тајфата да ја напијам!
Reversions
I would suggest to BalkanFever not to revert without discussing first - otherwise the next thing I will do is turn to an administrator. 12:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- I would suggest you tone down the POV-pushing. Feel free to add the stuff calling it a Bulgarian dialect, but you completely raped the previous intro, which described it as a transitional dialect anyway. BalkanFever 12:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Falsified sources
According to the articles quoted in Slavic language (Greece), Trudgill explicitly subsumes all forms of Slavic in Greece except those of the Pomaks under Macedonian on his sociolinguistic criteria. This clearly includes the Serres-Drama dialects (although he would of course count the speakers accross the border as Bulgarian). Schmieger constructs an actual linguistic boundary on dialect grounds, a bit further west than Trudgill, but apparently not at Yat boundary to the west of this dialect; he includes only "the far east of Greek Macedonia [...] the region around Kavala and in the Rhodope Mountains, as well as the eastern part of Drama nomos" as Bulgarian. It seems clear that this does not cover Serres and Drama itself but means a different dialect area to the east of it. Quoting these two authors as saying that this dialect as a whole is solidly part of Bulgarian as opposed to Macedonian is blatant falsification.
Behaviour like this from disruptive tendentious editors like VMORO (talk · contribs) will not be tolerated. VMORO, you may not have noticed it, but we are no longer in 2005 here. Please have a look at WP:ARBMAC and consider yourself warned. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)