Sarah Palin was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
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# of grandchildren:
"Palin has four grandchildren, two by Bristol and two by Track"
according to the Bristol Palin article, Bristol has 3 kids, so the number of grandchildren should be 5.
Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2019
Add the following to the end of the Personal Life section:
On August 29, 2019, Todd Palin filed for divorce from Sarah Palin.
reference:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/sarah-palin-s-husband-todd-files-divorce-over-incompatibility-temperament-n1051636 David.Elliott.Bell.again (talk) 20:58, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2019
Under the title of "Early life and family" there is this quote - " Palin is of English, Irish, and German ancestry.[11]" I would like to see an addition to this as "with other ancestors from Holland, Wales, France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Brazil and Canada. She also has at least five ancestors that were passengers on the Mayflower."[1] [2] 73.65.155.121 (talk) 00:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
References
- Seems trivial to add so much detail. We're not a genealogy site, but rather are here to give a summary of this person rather than all the boring details, so it seems like the closest ancestral ties would be enough. If you go back just 20 generations your looking at over a million direct ancestors you could call great, great grandparents. More importantly, genealogy sites are primary sources and not considered to be reliable sources for Wikipedia. To even consider these additions we would need to find it in a secondary sources, like a newspaper, book, or magazine article. Zaereth (talk) 00:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit semi-protected}}
template.--Goldsztajn (talk) 00:46, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
2016 comments about Obama
The text "BLP violation redacted” has been objected to on the grounds that it isn't about Sarah Palin but is in fact about Track Palin. My question is whether there is any version of this text that preserves the sources that User:Zaereth would agree to? Would the first sentence on its own do? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 02:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yo, User:Zaereth, waiting for you. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, didn't see this due to the archive bot. The answer is no, especially not if the only source is TMZ. Like the source, it reads like gossip from a tabloid. Per BLPSOURCE, "This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable and whether it is in a biography or in some other article. The material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism." Aside from that, the first sentence is incoherent and doesn't make any sense.
- More importantly, this is all about her son, who is not even close to passing WELLKNOWN; he is not even notable enough to have his own article. Per BLPCRIME, we don't report allegations or arrests of such people unless there is a conviction upheld in a court of law and that conviction is widely reported in reliable, secondary sources (not tabloids). That is a blatant violation of BLP and the reason for removing it so quickly without discussion. Furthermore, per the very preamble of BLP, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment."
- We don't report info simply because it is titillating; it must be able to show some impact on her life and career, per BLPBALANCE. I see no relevance to the subject of this article, and no evidence of any effect on her life and career. Wikipedia is not a collection of trivia and gossip, but a summary of this person's entire life and career, and info must be put into balance with that. In-family disputes like this are common in most families. Finally, I personally find anyone who attacks someone's children just to get at them to be despicable (even in prison people who attack children are the lowest forms of life), something which you only tend to see from mobsters, gangsters, and the so-called "progressive" left. If anyone attacked Obama's children like this people would be going out of their minds.
- This is a total tangent but you’re going to need to show me the wikipedia policy that allows you to redact my comments on this talk page, and please be extremely specific. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BLPTALK is quite explicit about this. Zaereth is correct to redact statements here that violate BLP policy. Elizium23 (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- They dont in fact violate BLP policy, that point has yet to be proven. WP:BLPTALK is also specific that it only applies when "not related to making content choices” which this was in fact related to. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BLPTALK is quite explicit about this. Zaereth is correct to redact statements here that violate BLP policy. Elizium23 (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- This is a total tangent but you’re going to need to show me the wikipedia policy that allows you to redact my comments on this talk page, and please be extremely specific. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Back on topic here are a number of Sarah Palin focused stories that cover this issue, note that they are reporting on Sarah Palin’s public reactions to her son’s behavior rather than her sons behavior. From Politico: Palin links son's domestic-violence arrest to Obama's neglect of veterans [1]. From Time Magazine: Sarah Palin Blames President Obama, PTSD for Son's Problems [2]. The Guardian: Sarah Palin ties son's arrest on domestic violence charge to military service [3]. NBC: Vets: Don't Blame Obama for Track Palin's Behavior [4]. USA Today: Sarah Palin: Arrested son was 'hardened' by war [5]. I could go on but I think my point has been made and we have more than enough WP:RS for a solid paragraph or two.Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Great. Do any of these sources indicated that he was convicted? The policy is simple, we don't even hint someone was a murderer, wife beater, child molester, jay walker, etc... unless there has been a conviction upheld in a court. The only exception to that is WP:WELLKNOWN, which is for the really big celebrities (not their families). If yes, then the next hurdle is to put this in balance with the rest of the article, so then we need to weigh the information against all the other information by a preponderance of reliable sources, to figure out how much weight to give it in comparison to the rest of the article. Does it require a full section, a paragraph, a sentence, or none at all. How significant is this in comparison to all the other things she's said about Obama, about McCain, about Trump, all the things said about her, all she's done, her political views, accomplishments, etc...
- If you had read the articles I provided you would know the answer to your question, yes he was convicted. Take the AP’s word for it: "Track Palin, the elder son of former Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin, has won an early release from custody after his conviction for assaulting his father ... In December 2017, Palin was accused of breaking into his parents’ home and leaving his father, Todd, bleeding from cuts on his head, authorities said. He pleaded guilty to misdemeanor criminal trespass ... Palin also was accused of punching his then-girlfriend in 2016. He pleaded guilty to misdemeanor possession of a firearm while intoxicated.”[6] Horse Eye Jack (talk) 22:35, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- I usually don't bother reading sources unless there is a reason to do so, which I why I asked. And after reading all sources you previously posted, I was right, none of them say anything about a conviction. This new source provided does say he pled guilty ... to trespass and possession of a firearm, so that's what we can mention, although for relatively unknown people like this there should be a multitude of reliable, independent sources to show the significance (not just a repeat of the one). He was not convicted of assault or anything like that, according to the source.
- What I find really interesting is that none of the sources actually show that Palin has accused nor linked Obama to any of her son's problems of PTSD; they all simply allude to it when the actual statements she makes say nothing of the kind. In fact, one source even goes as far to say that she never actually talked about any arrests. Instead of making this about her son's legal problems, and trying to provide a connection that even the sources do not, perhaps it should really be about his PTSD. Perhaps give the actual quote and let the reader make their own interpretations. And again, what makes this so significant over all the other comments she made which we haven't included. This isn't a repository for every comment made by nor about a person, so why is this one so important? Zaereth (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- I dont think thats an accurate take on the sources. I don't know why this one is so important, but global newspapers chose to cover it and we shouldn’t challenge the judgement of those WP:RS. Any comments which are covered by so many sources should at least receive a mention on her Wikipedia page or a subpage. At the very least will you retract your assertion that “Finally, I personally find anyone who attacks someone's children just to get at them to be despicable (even in prison people who attack children are the lowest forms of life), something which you only tend to see from mobsters, gangsters, and the so-called "progressive" left. If anyone attacked Obama's children like this people would be going out of their minds.” as it clearly is not relevant to the discussion at hand? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 23:44, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Read them yourselves. Anyone watching this page is welcome to look. None say "convicted". One says "pled guilty to trespass and possession of a firearm while intoxicated". I see no ambiguity there.
- Or, if talking about my interpretation of the subject's words, that's exactly my point. They can be interpreted in different ways depending upon which color glasses you wear, red or blue. (Or in my case, none, because I totally hate both parties.) In such cases we should just use the actual quote and let the reader draw their own conclusion. If we do use the conclusions of the sources it should be attributed to them.
- When talking importance, I'm referring to into issues of weight. All of her comments have been covered extensively, been torn apart, picked apart, spun and twisted every which way. That's all that happens in politics and exactly why I find it so hard to take any of them seriously. And this is especially true during a campaign. So really, why this quote over the other some-odd-thousands to choose from? They're all reliably sourced and extensively covered, so per WP:WEIGHT and WP:BALANCE, we need to pick from the cream of the crop. Does this have more coverage than all the others? That's what I mean by a preponderance of sources. Is this getting some outlandish amount of coverage or is it just another campaign quote from the mass?
- My personal feeling are relevant only in helping understand my motives. I've made that very clear since I first started here back in 2008, using this article as a learning experience (and what a learning experience it was back then, especially about BLP), because it's best to learn on a topic which you really don't care about. But when it comes to the exploitation of children (even grown children) for political or any other gain, then I take that very seriously. And you are free to run through the archives. You'll see I never really get involved in the politics of things, but when it comes to the right, the wrong, and the BLP violating --and especially the privacy and protection of children-- that's where I take a stance, here, at BLPN, or any other place I see it happening. Zaereth (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
- With all due respect you already made it political when you made your list of "mobsters, gangsters, and the so-called "progressive" left.” which is an *extremely* political statement. You cant now claim in good faith that you "never really get involved in the politics of things.” Horse Eye Jack (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
- I dont believe that adding this information will do anything to increase the reader's understanding of Palin, so my preference would be to leave it out. Bonewah (talk) 14:50, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- Thats to really up to us to decide if its been published by multiple WP:RS, see WP:CENSOR, but we can decide on due weight. I’m arguing for one or two paragraphs covering only the parts of both stories which *directly* relate to Sarah Palin, I would even be amenable to not saying the name of the son and just saying “one of her adult sons.” Now the ball is in your court, what do you propose we include from these reliable sources? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- My proposal is we include none of it. WP:CENSOR isnt really relevant here, this a garden variety content discussion. If you want to propose an alternative edit based on your above compromises, im listening. Bonewah (talk) 20:07, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- You already proposed nothing, you can't compromise by proposing nothing again... The ball is still in your court. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 02:14, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- My proposal is we include none of it. WP:CENSOR isnt really relevant here, this a garden variety content discussion. If you want to propose an alternative edit based on your above compromises, im listening. Bonewah (talk) 20:07, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- Thats to really up to us to decide if its been published by multiple WP:RS, see WP:CENSOR, but we can decide on due weight. I’m arguing for one or two paragraphs covering only the parts of both stories which *directly* relate to Sarah Palin, I would even be amenable to not saying the name of the son and just saying “one of her adult sons.” Now the ball is in your court, what do you propose we include from these reliable sources? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- I dont believe that adding this information will do anything to increase the reader's understanding of Palin, so my preference would be to leave it out. Bonewah (talk) 14:50, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- With all due respect you already made it political when you made your list of "mobsters, gangsters, and the so-called "progressive" left.” which is an *extremely* political statement. You cant now claim in good faith that you "never really get involved in the politics of things.” Horse Eye Jack (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
- My personal feeling are relevant only in helping understand my motives. I've made that very clear since I first started here back in 2008, using this article as a learning experience (and what a learning experience it was back then, especially about BLP), because it's best to learn on a topic which you really don't care about. But when it comes to the exploitation of children (even grown children) for political or any other gain, then I take that very seriously. And you are free to run through the archives. You'll see I never really get involved in the politics of things, but when it comes to the right, the wrong, and the BLP violating --and especially the privacy and protection of children-- that's where I take a stance, here, at BLPN, or any other place I see it happening. Zaereth (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2019 (UTC)