Horologium (talk | contribs) Undid revision 456094728 by Will Beback (talk) this has not been closed yet; no consensus. |
Undid revision 456097973 by Horologium (talk) hmmmm.... seems to be lifted per that archived discussion, other related pages on my watchlist have uncontested talk edits, comment below? |
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FYI, I have proposed the lifting of the [[Sarah Palin]]-related community probation [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Proposed_lifting_of_Sarah_Palin_community_probation here]. [[User:Kelly|<span style="color:#060;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;cursor:help">'''Kelly'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Kelly|hi!]]</sup> 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC) |
FYI, I have proposed the lifting of the [[Sarah Palin]]-related community probation [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Proposed_lifting_of_Sarah_Palin_community_probation here]. [[User:Kelly|<span style="color:#060;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;cursor:help">'''Kelly'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Kelly|hi!]]</sup> 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:Now lifted, per [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive227#Proposed lifting of Sarah Palin community probation]]. <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]] [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]] </b> 23:38, 17 October 2011 (UTC) |
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== Collaboration == |
== Collaboration == |
Revision as of 00:12, 18 October 2011
Sarah Palin was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Intro should include mention of criticism
This article is the parent to all things Wiki about Sarah Palin. The intro should briefly summary the criticisms and controversies in this parent article and all daughter articles, including Public Image, etc. Anything less is a disservice to this article and to Wikipedia. She is a highly polarizing figure and it should be noted up front. - Anon98.92.. 98.92.189.102 (talk) 05:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- There are many that would say the same about the intro to Barack Obama. We try to hit the tone of the neutral point of view here, though. This is a biography of a person, not a platform form which to condemn, Tarc (talk) 11:28, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yep, but as it is now, the intro is not neutral but rather overly positive .. as though her press agents wrote it. A neutral view would balance that with mention of criticism etc. -Anon98.92.. 98.92.189.62 (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I also do not think it is accurate to call her a politician because she holds no political office. She should be listed as a former politician, an author and a FOX News contributor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 403calgary403 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- We call George W Bush a politician, although he has not been active for some years now. Plenty of famous people write books and appear on television. Why is Sarah Palin any different? ★Dasani★ 16:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it would be accurate to call George W. Bush, or Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter or Richard Nixon politicians either. Former President would be appropriate, just as former politician or former Governor would be more accurate for Mrs. Palin. To directly answer your question, Sarah Palin isn't any different from the other famous people who appear on television or write books, and that is why we should accurately describe her current and former occupations. She is Currently an author and a FOX News contributor and was Formerly a politician. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 403calgary403 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- I once thought the same thing. However, as it was pointed out in several archived discussions, the definition of the term "politician" is not limited to those who hold a political office. Zaereth (talk) 19:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Understandable, thanks for the clarification. -JS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 403calgary403 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree that this intro is overly positive about Palin, as though she has all of America behind her. She is a very devisive person in America, and I agree with the above poster that something should be added to balance out the page. JeffreyW75 (talk) 23:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Also, I think the part about her being a "potential candidate" for 2012 should be removed. There are many people out there that haven't declared their candidacy that could be potential candidates. I don't think this should be in the intro, but instead put it down in the body somewhere saying she has been thinking about running and hasn't committed. JeffreyW75 (talk) 23:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the sentence about being a potential candidate should be removed. All we have is speculation, and while that specualtion itself seems to have be become notable, it is not something that defines her notability. However, I disagree that the lede is overly positive. It is simply a factual list of things that she is notable for, which does define her. I see neither an abundance of criticism nor praise there. Perhaps if you could be more specific about what it is that you would change, that would help. Zaereth (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think that the following entire section should be deleted from the lede. Too much information for the lede, and just gives minor details of her life and all positive. If it is to be included, put it in the body. "Her book Going Rogue has sold more than two million copies. Since January 2010, she has provided political commentary for Fox News, and hosted a television show, Sarah Palin's Alaska. Five million viewers viewed the first episode, a record for The Learning Channel. Palin is a potential candidate for the 2012 presidential election." JeffreyW75 (talk) 00:25, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think the big issue with the lede is that there is lots of information in it, and cumulatively it is all mainly positive, as though the person has no critics or negative aspects. Shorter would better.JeffreyW75 (talk) 00:28, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- More on this--I don't understand why the statement about her being the first Alaskan to be on the ticket of a major party is in the lede either. For one, she isn't a native Alaskan. For two, that isn't really that important. Maybe if she was a native Alaskan, that would be a different story. A lot of this isn't really big enough to be in the lede, should be in the body text below. And also, calling her an author in the lede seems like a stretch as well, as though she is one of the great authors--I could see it being in the text below, but not big enough to put in the lede. Besides, she had a ghostwriter, Lynn Vincent, an editor at the Christian World magazine. See here: http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2009/10/25/secret_diary_sarah_palins_ghostwriter JeffreyW75 (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, the purpose of the lede is to summarize the body of the article, As such, it needs to touch on all of the things that she is notable for. Authoring a book and hosting a TV show seems to fit that description. I see no reason to mention only political achievements. (If there was a ghostwriter, that's still not the same as being an author. If I dictate a memo to my secretary, I am the author, even though she is the writer.)
- I also see nothing positive or negative about fatual statements. It is simply a list of things she is notable for. I would expect the lede in an article on, say ... asperin, to be as factual as an article on wolfsbane. One may appear to be a better medicine than the other, but all we give is the evidence. Whether you see one to be positive and one to be negative is a matter of your own opinion.
- As for your recommendation that the lede be shorter, I agree. Personally, I would divide the lede into a very short lede, and a broader introdution section. Something like I did over at the BFM article. However, consensus has been, thus far, to leave it as it was. Zaereth (talk) 01:29, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Equating a ghost writer to an executive assistant is a false analogy. A ghost writer is an author who uses story and notes provided by a source to create a cogent piece of writing. An assistant transcribes word for word. Referring to SP as an author in the lede is misleading at best, disingenuous at worst. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.240.41 (talk) 14:26, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. From the book, The A-Z of writing and selling, "...a ghostwriter is defined as a professional writer or editor who accepts a finished or partly written script and assists the author to complete the script in a marketable form." The point is that being a writer does not necesarrily make one an author, and visa versa. Also, my secretary does not copy things word for word but, similarly, edits out all my "ums" and "uhs," corrects my grammer, and makes my speech presentable and professional in written form. Zaereth (talk) 16:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Overlong
Jamesthecat (talk) 17:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
this article is overlong, and much of the material is more what you'd expect to find in a specialists' print biography than an encyclopedia. i've compressed a bit of it, but it should be compressed more.
much of the detail detracts from the thrust of the article.
does anyone disagree?
- James: this is a conspicuous article with a lot of editors involved (I think) and a lot taken to heart. May I suggest cutting your Wiki-teeth in a less controversial place than this article, learning how the Wiki works, both the mechanics and the basic rules of civility - then returning to trying to wrastle this particular article to an appropriate length. But, that said, there is no attachment to wiki articles being a specific length - there are guidelines, and concise writing is always appreciated, but if this article needs to be this long to cover the subject, then it needs to be this long. Ratagonia (talk) 19:23, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Jamesthecat (talk) 22:25, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- "College", for instance, could be something along the lines of:
- "After graduating from high school, Palin enrolled at the University of Hawaii, but after a semester switched to Hawaii Pacific University, and later transferred to North Idaho College for two semesters. In 1984, she won the Miss Wasilla beauty pageant, and finished third in the Miss Alaska pageant,which also awarded her a college scholarship. Following this she attended the University of Idaho in Moscow, Idaho, and Matanuska-Susitna College in Alaska, finally returning to the University of Idaho in 1986 to received a bachelor's degree in communications with an emphasis in journalism in 1987."
- It's not really about the controversy of the article, more the conciseness. Lots of things are not particularly relevant, but changing them isn't really about controversy, e.g.
- - Palin's flute playing seems to crop up quite a lot and seems rather trivial. (I suppose you could argue that it shows she has ability at something when people are critical of her abilities, but really people ought to stick specifically to her politics.)
- - The specific dates of her college hopping are not really relevant.
- The article is much more like a specialist biography, than an encyclopedia entry.
- You misunderstand Ratagonia's comment. This article has over 700 editors watching it and it is on probation. There are many articles in addition to this one that need attention, and this is probably not a good one to practice on. If you want to work on this article you are welcome, and I recommend that you watch it for a few weeks first and get a feel for the difficulty of changing it. If you do, you might come to agree with me that small changes for style are not very helpful.Jarhed (talk) 00:41, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Joe McGinniss book
Discussion centralized at WP:BLPN#Complete absence of edit warring at Sarah Palin article. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hi y'all. I added some text about the allegations in the new book "The Rogue: Searching for the Real Sarah Palin" by Joe McGinniss, with 4 citations to reliable source material:Sarah Palin snorted cocaine off 55 gallon oil drum and had affairs with NBA star and husband's business partner: Sensational claims in new book; Sarah Palin had sex with NBA star, snorted cocaine, book alleges; Palin book ‘disgusting lies’; 'Rogue' negative book may not hurt Sarah Palin, analysts say. Two different editors have now removed this, citing WP:BLP concerns, so I thought I should bring up the matter here before doing anything else. Obviously, the allegations McGinniss makes are highly controversial and potentially damaging to Palin, so WP:BLP should be uppermost in our minds. However, WP:BLP repeatedly makes clear the importance of "the use of high quality sources." It goes on, "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." Again and again, WP:BLP comes back to that issue: contentious material must be removed if it is poorly sourced. However, I provided two reliable sources in my first edit, and added another two subsequently. Google News has over 964 hits for "mcginniss" in the past week discussing the book, its allegations and rebuttals. This material, while contentious, while it needs to be handled sensitively, with due regard for WP:NPOV, has plenty of reliable sources behind it. Ergo, I feel WP:BLP concerns are and can be adequately met and, given the coverage this topic is getting, it should be covered somewhere, in some manner, in the article. So, that's where I'm coming from. What do others think? Bondegezou (talk) 13:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Glen Rice is not an anonymous source. No sex before marriage, blah blah are trademark Palin "values". The fact that Glen Rice is quoted in an book stating he had sex with her while she was engaged to Todd might seem salacious, but based on the image Palin projects it's highly relevant. I concur with others here that there is no need to perpetuate the unsubstantiated claims, but we have an NBA star admitting he had sex with Palin while she was engaged to Todd is pretty credible. And his race should not be a factor for omitting this information. In fact I wonder if he were white if anyone would object to it being included. Every news outlet in North America has weighed in on this topic, except Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.183.68.48 (talk) 19:43, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
And
Getting back on track: Just how reliable should we consider McGiniss's book? It has now been savaged by the Los Angeles Times, which said that his "revelations are undermined by the use of unnamed sources", the New York Times, which said that "Mr. McGinniss used his time in Alaska to chase caustic, unsubstantiated gossip about the Palins, often from unnamed sources", and the Washington Post, which says that McGinniss "serves up any and all rumors and calumnies about Palin, the more salacious the better". It seems that the "lamestream media" as Palin herself famously put it, does not consider this book a reliable source. We should not repeat its charges here in Wikipedia, even if reliable sources describe in news stories what this fundamentally unreliable source says. There are a million fleeting news stories but only one biography here. We have a higher and more enduring responsibility. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Discussions are currently going on in two separate places - I suggest closing this discussion and centralizing at WP:BLPN#Complete absence of edit warring at Sarah Palin article. Kelly hi! 17:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC) |
"City of Character"
I removed the following recently-added paragraph from the section on the second term of her mayoralty:
After attending an April 2000 training seminar at Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles, Palin also obtained the designation of "City of Character" for Wasilla, a designation based on the International Association of Character Cities (IACC) teachings, which are linked to Gothard's controversial Institute in Basic Life Principles. The City of Character movement has been criticized as a way to reduce the separation of church and state, which some followers claim is a myth and not based on the Constitution. Some say that this shows Palin's willingness to mix religion with governance.[4]
Lots of problems with weasel words, and the fact that it is sourced to what seems to be an opinion piece at Salon.com, which self-describes as "liberal". If the "City of Character" can be provided with better sourcing and can be neutrally described, it probably would belong first in Early political career of Sarah Palin, and only summarized here if editors felt it was important enough. Kelly hi! 06:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- Kelly, I agree with your edit. Too much off-topic content, in addition to the reasons you have stated.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:32, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- Disagree with removing. Shows person's political views, as well as a major movement in her city. Should be deleted after discussion, not before. Article cited is not an opinion piece, misinformation by commenter above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.71.173.5 (talk) 13:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
- Political positions are normally added to Political positions of Sarah Palin and summarized in this article...however, in this case, it's simply a cite of a 2008 piece from an online publication containing the writer's opinion of what Palin's opinions might be. Pretty sketchy. Kelly hi! 14:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
The Rogue
lots of material from new book the rogue needs to be sifted. Some maybe worth adding if shown through time to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.83.151.193 (talk) 03:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
- See Talk:Sarah Palin#Joe McGinniss book above. Kelly hi! 13:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Weight
Folk are making the argument that we can't mention the McGinniss book due to WP:WEIGHT: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. If that is the case, then we would also be giving excess weight to topics which have received less attention than the book and its author. ["Sarah Palin" "Joe McGinniss"] gets 426 hits in the Proquest newspaper archive. By comparison ["Sarah Palin" "Randy Ruedrich"] gets 274 hits, ["Sarah Palin" "India Today"] receives 50 hits, and ["Sarah Palin" "10 Most Fascinating People of 2008"] gets 12 hits. Should we delete those? Will Beback talk 03:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- As per WP policy, hit counts prove nothing with regard to notability, see Wikipedia:Search_engine_test#Notability. This is one of the reasons that cleaning up this article is such a chore.Jarhed (talk) 07:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- "Notability", in Wikipedia usage, generally concerns whether or not to have an article. "Weight" concerns how much space to devote to subtopics within an article. This discussion concerns the latter, not the former. WP:WEIGHT is based on coverage in independent sources. How do you propose to determine weight, if not by coverage in newspapers? Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- My read between-the-lines during that discussion was an objection to spurious insertion of the unsubstantiated content itself from the book, i.e. getting the camel's nose under the tent on the salacious content. If there is to be a reference section for third-party materials on the BLP subject, McGinniss does fit in that category... however, it could and should be done without providing a vehicle or credence to the content itself. Someone interested in doing so could easily craft a statement and wikilink to the book, to its reviews and to Palin's refutation, without having to air those scurrilous and unsubstantiated allegations of sexual escapades and illicit drug use. "After spending two years in Alaska living next to Palin, Joe McGinnis wrote an unflattering biography Book Name that was panned by literary sources including NY Times Article as not credible and was refuted by Palin herself Wherever She Did That." I presume there's a WP article on the book itself, so anyone interested in reading the salacious content could find that. Fcreid (talk) 10:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I consider the book to be on a par with the porno film which some sought to include in the BLP. BLPs are not supposed to be factioid collections - they should be actually related to the biography of a living person. [5], which was also "covered" in reliable sources. Existence != valid reason for inclusion in a BLP unless the material actually adds understanding of the subject of the biography for the reader. Else, all BLPs would be middens (some of them already are, alas). Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Collect here, except that I dont know what a middens is. The relevant section from wp:weight (again) says: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." I really dont see how the mere fact that someone wrote a book about Palin qualifies as significant to the subject and, frankly, I think that Will BeBack is being tendentious at this point. Bonewah (talk) 11:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. We should mention topics of significance. How significant is Palin's stance on the Iraq Surge compared to an actual biography written about her? Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Collect here, except that I dont know what a middens is. The relevant section from wp:weight (again) says: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." I really dont see how the mere fact that someone wrote a book about Palin qualifies as significant to the subject and, frankly, I think that Will BeBack is being tendentious at this point. Bonewah (talk) 11:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- For the record, my comment above was meant to address the singular point of material inclusion while avoiding the litany of BLP violations that categorically listing McGinnis' unsubstantiated assertions would introduce to the article. I'm not the guy to debate policy matters, particularly on weight and notability, as those too easily become subjective and confrontational. Fcreid (talk) 12:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I !vote against this article becoming a midden. :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- Great, then let's get rid of the minor stuff, like Randy Ruedrich. Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm guessing this must be a facetious comment, Will - all of the "actual biographies" like Benet's Trailblazer, Johnson's Sarah, Conroy & Walshe's Sarah from Alaska, and Palin's own Going Rogue credit the AOGCC ethics battle with Reudrich as the event that propelled her to statewide prominence and eventually put her in the Governor's mansion. I don't think some tabloidy nonsense about a widely-panned attack book really rises to the same level of weight in terms of significance to the subject of the biography. Kelly hi! 15:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Especially one whose author's publicly stated objective was to destroy Palin's public persona. I have no idea where such a book deserves mention, but it is certainly not in a BLP.Jarhed (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Shouldn´t it be at "Book and media coverage about Sarah Palin" under Public Image at the bottom of this article? As a link to the Joe McGinniss page.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Especially one whose author's publicly stated objective was to destroy Palin's public persona. I have no idea where such a book deserves mention, but it is certainly not in a BLP.Jarhed (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm guessing this must be a facetious comment, Will - all of the "actual biographies" like Benet's Trailblazer, Johnson's Sarah, Conroy & Walshe's Sarah from Alaska, and Palin's own Going Rogue credit the AOGCC ethics battle with Reudrich as the event that propelled her to statewide prominence and eventually put her in the Governor's mansion. I don't think some tabloidy nonsense about a widely-panned attack book really rises to the same level of weight in terms of significance to the subject of the biography. Kelly hi! 15:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Great, then let's get rid of the minor stuff, like Randy Ruedrich. Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I !vote against this article becoming a midden. :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- For the record, my comment above was meant to address the singular point of material inclusion while avoiding the litany of BLP violations that categorically listing McGinnis' unsubstantiated assertions would introduce to the article. I'm not the guy to debate policy matters, particularly on weight and notability, as those too easily become subjective and confrontational. Fcreid (talk) 12:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
No Run for President in 2012
- CNN:Palin will not seek presidential nomination
- Advocate:Palin will not run for president in 2012 92.252.48.199 (talk) 11:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Palin will not run for President in 2012. 92.252.48.199 (talk) 11:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- Already done. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposed lifting of community probation
FYI, I have proposed the lifting of the Sarah Palin-related community probation here. Kelly hi! 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- Now lifted, per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive227#Proposed lifting of Sarah Palin community probation. Will Beback talk 23:38, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Collaboration
A collaboration is being organized to promote this article to GA. Interested editors should join the discussion here. – Lionel (talk) 02:31, 17 October 2011 (UTC)