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I've quoted Sarah word-for-word as published in a reliable source, yet you've chosen to make still another revert. The Alaska Republican party chose to make an endorsement of a more conservative candidate than Sarah in the current election, and you think that's not worthy of mention? Are you serious? Really? [[User:Activist|Activist]] ([[User talk:Activist|talk]]) 20:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC) |
I've quoted Sarah word-for-word as published in a reliable source, yet you've chosen to make still another revert. The Alaska Republican party chose to make an endorsement of a more conservative candidate than Sarah in the current election, and you think that's not worthy of mention? Are you serious? Really? [[User:Activist|Activist]] ([[User talk:Activist|talk]]) 20:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC) |
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:Yes i am. The fact that the republican party endorsed someone else is of little note. The text "However, after he was convicted of seven felonies, a week before election day" is far from neutral. Neither is the sentence before that about what the Washington Post thinks Palin 'intended'. Speculation and opinion. Yet again, [[WP:Onus]] requires that "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." I.E. you. [[User:Bonewah|Bonewah]] ([[User talk:Bonewah|talk]]) 20:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:26, 20 September 2022
Sarah Palin was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reverting erasures
There are and were more mentions of Bristol than Track. Sarah called the police on Track after he beat his dad bloody, and they had him prosecuted, causing him to get a one-year sentence. There are more mentions of Ivanka and Donald Jr. and Jared in the Trump article than there were of Track before my edits were reverted. Please seek consensus. We're not a fan club for anyone. Activist (talk) 20:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, this isn't a fan club for anyone. It is an online encyclopaedia. One with policies regarding article content, including WP:BLP. And since this article isn't about Track Palin, we need a better reason to include content about him in it than it not being a fan club. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:55, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree, this is about Palin, Sarah. Not about her son Track or Track's relationship with his father. --StellarNerd (talk) 21:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Correct, WP:BLP states in part in its lede
Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
Basically all of those things apply to your proposed edits. That and the fact that the proposed material isnt even about Sarah Palin makes exclusion a no brainer. Bonewah (talk) 21:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Correct, WP:BLP states in part in its lede
- Agree, this is about Palin, Sarah. Not about her son Track or Track's relationship with his father. --StellarNerd (talk) 21:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Request restoration of deleted text in endorsement section
I believe an editor inadvertently deleted the below line in the endorsement section during this edit, described as "Reverted good faith edits by Activist (talk): This is not an article about Palin's family".
In 2010, former congressman and influential TV host Joe Scarborough urged his party to dissociate itself from her.[1]
References
- ^ Joe Scarborough tells GOP to man up and confront Sarah Palin, Politico, Joe Scarborough, November 30, 2010. Retrieved May 31, 2022.
Editors on the talk page (above) reached consensus on the removal of the family matters; however, this appears to me to be unintentional. Can it be restored? Ushistorygeek (talk) 17:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Absent objections, I will restore this line in the 2010 section. Ushistorygeek (talk) 02:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- I object. There is no indication that Joe Scarborough's opinion of Palin is of particular relevance. Everyone has an opinion, you need to demonstrate that this person's opinion had some notable or substantial effect on Palin's life to warrant inclusion in this biography. Per WP:ONUS and BRD i am removing this material pending further discussion. Bonewah (talk) 12:46, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- Respectfully disagree. This was included in the article for *years* without objection and was removed (by you) without cause and an edit summary that did not address the topic Ushistorygeek (talk) 16:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Magnolia677 The quote you deleted was present in the article for years before and UCR edit. The content removed provides context relevant to the subhead 2010 endorsements, and conforms to BLP . Ushistorygeek (talk) 00:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's a cherrypicked criticism. Please seek consensus, per WP:VNOT. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- This section is titled 2010 endorsement and includes quotes and endorsements from the following political and media figures:
- Shushannah Walshe
- Karl Rove
- Ben Smith
- Davin Frum
- Jonathan Chait
- I believe the sourced statement, which has been included in the article for years, is just as, if not more, meaningful than different than the above. Ushistorygeek (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- You're correct, of course. Scrubbing of Sarah's article is going to full court press. Bonewah has repeated him or herself today. Activist (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- This latest addition is another cherrypicked criticism and there is no 'scrubbing' of anything. You attempted to add this on the third of september. Just as above, i see no indication that this one person's criticism had any lasting impact or import to the subject. Again, per WP:ONUS and BRD i am removing this material. Please demonstrate that re-adding this will substantially help the reader understand the subject before re-adding. Bonewah (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- So i did a little digging on this subject and the top items i could find all indicate that Palin was not connected to Bill Allen or VECO aside from the one campaign donation. Several of the articles indicate that she worked against Allen and his interests, sometimes explicitly:
- This latest addition is another cherrypicked criticism and there is no 'scrubbing' of anything. You attempted to add this on the third of september. Just as above, i see no indication that this one person's criticism had any lasting impact or import to the subject. Again, per WP:ONUS and BRD i am removing this material. Please demonstrate that re-adding this will substantially help the reader understand the subject before re-adding. Bonewah (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- You're correct, of course. Scrubbing of Sarah's article is going to full court press. Bonewah has repeated him or herself today. Activist (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- This section is titled 2010 endorsement and includes quotes and endorsements from the following political and media figures:
- It's a cherrypicked criticism. Please seek consensus, per WP:VNOT. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Magnolia677 The quote you deleted was present in the article for years before and UCR edit. The content removed provides context relevant to the subhead 2010 endorsements, and conforms to BLP . Ushistorygeek (talk) 00:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Respectfully disagree. This was included in the article for *years* without objection and was removed (by you) without cause and an edit summary that did not address the topic Ushistorygeek (talk) 16:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- I object. There is no indication that Joe Scarborough's opinion of Palin is of particular relevance. Everyone has an opinion, you need to demonstrate that this person's opinion had some notable or substantial effect on Palin's life to warrant inclusion in this biography. Per WP:ONUS and BRD i am removing this material pending further discussion. Bonewah (talk) 12:46, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- This reuters article about VECO and Bill Allen's corruption convictions says this about Palin "Meanwhile, the oil producers and their allies are fighting attempts by Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to rewrite the scandal-clouded tax bill."
- This Newsminer article about a book on Alaska corruption describes Palin's involvement with VECO thusly ""Palin was a child of Alaska’s boom years who came of age viewing the state’s raw materials as public property, the oil companies as the state’s natural opponents, and the free ride paid for with resource revenues as the God-given birthright of every Alaskan. Consequently, during her brief tenure in office, the woman who has since become the darling of American conservatives governed the state as a socialist, going so far as to pass the largest tax increase in state history on oil producers and to hand out bonus checks to every resident. Along with punitive taxes, she also pushed through a gas line act so anti-industry that it virtually assured the pipeline wouldn’t get built."
- This CNN article tries hard to make Palin look bad, but ultimately says that "Palin aides also asked Allen to resign from a seat on a state board that cultivated ties with the Canadian province of Alberta, a request to which Allen -- who was later sentenced to three years in prison -- quickly agreed."
- This 'Alaska Corruption timeline' Politico article says "State Senator John Cowdery (R-Anchorage) indicted on conspiracy and bribery charges related to the VECO scandal. Governor Sarah Palin urged Cowdery to resign from the State Senate." and "Governor Palin Called On Stevens To Break Silence After FBI Raid. Governor Sarah Palin said that she and Alaskans are owed a more thorough explanation from Senator Stevens about why he is under federal investigation."
- Prospect.org article on Palin and Alaska corruption: ""Palin's problem, though, is not money. In fact, she raised taxes on oil companies in 2007. It was the first of such hikes in the state since 1989."
- The New Yorker no friend to Palin, wrote an extensive bio. Some mention of VECO and Bill Allen, but as to any connection with Palin, the New Yorker says "Palin was elected governor just as Alaska’s political establishment was being realigned by the Veco bribery scandal. She had no role in exposing the corruption, but she was swift to see opportunity in the moment of crisis." The article goes on to detail Palin's proposed gas pipe deal with a Canadian Company unconnected to VECO or Bill Allen.
- So, based on what reliable sources seem to say about VECO, Bill Allen and Sarah Palin, i feel that insinuating some kind of connection would be totally at odds with what the reliable sources actually say. If anything we should probably detail her hostility towards the state's existing corruption. Bonewah (talk) 14:12, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Scrubbing of article, "recentism," notability, etc.
Sarah Palin's family is a clearly newsworthy topic, much as are Joe Biden's or Donald Trump's. She was present, calling police as Track attacked Todd. Bonewah's ("B"s) edits reveal some interesting features. As of yesterday, "B" has edited the Palin article's Talk page 138 times, adding 71,264 bytes. I haven't the time to go over those one by one, but it appears "B" differed with and erased edits to the articles made by many editors. "B" has edited the "Political Positions of Sarah Palin 122 times, the Sarah Palin article 62 times, the "Public Image of Sarah Palin" article 58 times, the SP "Talk" article 139 times, the "Political Positions of S.P. Talk article 102 times, the S.P. "Public Image" Talk article 39 times, the "Parodies of Sarah Palin" Talk article 31 times, and the "Resignation of Sarah Palin" article 9 times for a total of 600 edits about her. I'd written earlier, Wikipedia is not a fan club. Rather than ostensible "recentism," "VECO"/Bill Allen's contributions to Sarah were first noted in 2002 by the Anchorage Daily News after being reported to the Alaska Political Offices Commission. They constituted 20% of all her contributions for that race. Allen, the richest man in the state, was indicted for bribery and laundering campaign contributions. He turned state's evidence, and with his executive VP, Richard Smith, testified against many other recipients of his corporate largesse, including five state legislators who went to jail, plus an aging, infirm, ex-legislator to house arrest. U.S. Senator Ted Stevens was convicted of seven felonies in a D.C. trial, eight days before losing his reelection after almost 40 years in office. (Sidney Powell wrote a book, "Licensed to Lie," proclaiming Ted's "innocence.") U.S. Rep. Don Young, expecting his own indictment, spent over $1 million in campaign funds preparing for the criminal case though Eric Holder didn't indict him. Bill Allen died this year, but spent three years in the federal pen, along with his Executive V.P. Sarah's family is important: Her kids, save for her youngest, have had regular run ins with the law, even Willow, involved as a juvenile in a destructive invasion of a vacationing elderly couple's home. Track was probably saved from doing prison time the first time he was arrested, thanks to the family position and him being a veteran. His Lake Lucille home invasion was very violent, violating probation and possibly a restraining order. I think the police had to pull Track off the roof. All of that was well covered by "The Frontiersman." Tony Hopfinger who wrote the 2008 piece about VECO dough, was a long time reporter, not a guest or staff columnist, for the Anchorage Daily News and its successor, the Alaska Dispatch News. Six years later, that story had staying power; it hardly was "recentism," but was reportage, not an opinion piece. Let me suggest Sarah's relationship with Bill Allen and his contributions remain. Erasures should be first discussed in the article's Talk page. Activist (talk) 12:38, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
- Im not sure why you felt the need to start a new section on this, nor what you think you are proving by detailing my contributions to Sarah Palin related articles. As detailed above, the reliable sources i found all indicate no real connection of significance between Allen/VECO and Palin save the unremarkable campaign donation that wasent even worth mentioning in articles that explicitly were about VECO's/Allen and Palin. You can suggest anything you like about the supposed relationship between Palin and Bill Allen/VECO, but Wikipedia content is based on what reliable sources say. Your suggested inclusion is a clear violation of WP:UNDUE which states "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." by ignoring multiple reliable sources which either explicitly describe Palin's relationship with VECO as adversarial or dont note a connection at all in articles that are explicitly about VECO's corruption in the state of Alaska. Indeed, in your latest block of text you dont even bother to mention what you think the noteworthy relationship between Allen and Palin even is, preferring, i guess, to insinuate something untoward about a campaign donation so unremarkable that even articles hostile to Palin dont even mention it.
- As for you claims about the importance of things with Palin's family, i suggest you read WP:BLP which advises us that "Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." Obviously, material about Palin's family would have to be taken on a case to case basis, but the mere fact that something is true does not necessarily mean it is appropriate to include in a BLP.
- Finally, as to the notion that i should have discuss reverting material you have added before removing; false. WP:BLP states "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". More generally, WP:ONUS clearly states that "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." Bonewah (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Palin zombie initiative
: Bonewah (talk): In an exceptionally well documented article, Politifact, the [[Poynter Institute]]''s fact checkers pretty much wrote the obituary noting the demise fourteen years ago of Sarah's marquee project/initiative, that the Trans-Canada pipeline, was extremely unlikely ever to be realized. https://www.politifact.com/article/2008/sep/15/palins-pipeline-less-meets-eye/ About the time that was written, Canada's First Nations rose up in opposition to the proposal. Palin was still touting her pipe dream four years later at the Houston Hilton's conference center before an extractive industry audience with the aid of a tin ear. The world is a very different place than it was in 2008, with a powerful consensus that climate change is perhaps the most issue with which the world will have to deal. An integral part of her proposal was to hook up the Trans Canadian filthy (tar sands) oil resources to be ostensibly carried to the east coast and beyond. In fact, Trans Canada pulled the plug on life support for that boneheaded idea 15 months ago. Even Trump couldn't make that happen, and I expect he might himself in a lockup one of these days, so he'd have less juice at some point in the future than he thinks he has now. Not only did you sweep out the solidly sourced material I'd added, but you even reverted my tense correction of the word that were faced by the reality the proposal "faced" back to the preexisting "faces." Politifact also correctly noted that the pipeline wasn't Sarah's idea at all, but one she simply adopted. Her original conception was to transport gas to Valdez for compression and shipment to faraway markets (Japan, or even Germany, one presumes these days, since Vlad's tightened up that market). It doesn't seem to have risen to the level where you're Wikistalking me, and I certainly hope it doesn't get there. I would suggest you self revert. Activist (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- A failed policy initiative? So what? I see a few articles around 2008 talking about it, but nothing of any great import. Likewise with the Politifact article you cite. You even state that it wasnt her idea at all. Again, how is this of lasting significance? Bonewah (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
RSS is, by definition, reliable
I've quoted Sarah word-for-word as published in a reliable source, yet you've chosen to make still another revert. The Alaska Republican party chose to make an endorsement of a more conservative candidate than Sarah in the current election, and you think that's not worthy of mention? Are you serious? Really? Activist (talk) 20:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes i am. The fact that the republican party endorsed someone else is of little note. The text "However, after he was convicted of seven felonies, a week before election day" is far from neutral. Neither is the sentence before that about what the Washington Post thinks Palin 'intended'. Speculation and opinion. Yet again, WP:Onus requires that "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." I.E. you. Bonewah (talk) 20:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)