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::::Here you can see the clear Difference pg no:- 118 [[User:SikkaSingh|SikkaSingh]] ([[User talk:SikkaSingh|talk]]) 10:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC) |
::::Here you can see the clear Difference pg no:- 118 [[User:SikkaSingh|SikkaSingh]] ([[User talk:SikkaSingh|talk]]) 10:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:SikkaSingh|SikkaSingh]] If you don't stop now from peppering talk pages with sources you already know aren't reliable - [[WP:RAJ]] etc have been mentioned to you - then I will ask an administrator to take a look. See [[WP:CIR]] and [[WP:TE]]. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 13:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC) |
:::::@[[User:SikkaSingh|SikkaSingh]] If you don't stop now from peppering talk pages with sources you already know aren't reliable - [[WP:RAJ]] etc have been mentioned to you - then I will ask an administrator to take a look. See [[WP:CIR]] and [[WP:TE]]. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 13:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC) |
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9679474353 [[Special:Contributions/2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5|2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5]] ([[User talk:2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5|talk]]) 14:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC) |
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9679474353 [[Special:Contributions/2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5|2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5]] ([[User talk:2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5|talk]]) 14:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC) |
9679474353 [[Special:Contributions/2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5|2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5]] ([[User talk:2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5|talk]]) 14:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:08, 27 December 2023
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2021
Please change
"This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
to
"This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
Because Saini community is very much different from Mali community[1], they both are registered separately in the census of 1881, and can be seen in second column where saini mention in last of second column[2] and so on. Also the Mali was included under the Rajput sub-category in the 1891 State Census Report for Marwar.[3]
References
- Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021.
- [1]
- [4]
References
- ^ a b "The Sainis believe that their ancestors were Yadavas and that it was the same lineage in which Krishna was born. In the 43rd generation of the Yadavas there was a king known as Shoor or Sur, the son of King Vidaratha....It was in the name of these, father and son, that the community was known as Shoorsaini or Sursaini." People of India: Haryana, p 430, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published by Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994
- ^ Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021.
- ^ Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992
- ^ Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992
OBC Sub division in Haryana
In Haryana, the community is now added to sub category of BC - B category along with Yadav, Gujjar, Lodha, Meo and Goswami. On the other hand, six castes are included in the Backward Classes Block-B sub-category: Yadav/Ahir Gujjar, Lodha, Saini, Meo, and Goswami. Those in BC-B have been relatively better placed and are more likely to own land. Yatilib (talk) 04:05, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Yatilib:, In Bihar also the community is placed in BC2 category, from community, i mean the subcaste or you may say, similar caste which is often considered as part of Saini community. Can I get your mail id, so that, we can discuss more on it as i am not much aware about Haryana.-Admantine123 (talk) 04:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- I have lost my account @Yatilib as I forgot it's password and I haven't registered any email at the time of account creation making the scenario worst. Due to this I am unable to contribute here, Is there a solution for this?
- Yes you can have my email but I don't how to share it though. 103.49.116.253 (talk) 04:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- You can make a new account. With another email, as you hadn't attached email, it will be difficult to get a OTP. Admantine123 (talk) 05:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admantine123 About Bihar on Talk Page of Kushwaha, I have added some sources on it's talk page about the population of community in the state. 103.49.116.253 (talk) 04:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not in Punjab, Sainis in Punjab are in general category. Please correct it. Thank you very much. 2A02:908:1A1:4F60:F467:4640:F915:2F89 (talk) 20:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
State version of people of India
Sitush, the one used in intro, you are removing people of India from many articles. Is it good to keep it here. As it is also one which is considered unreliable. Admantine123 (talk) 11:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admantine123 See WP:RAJ. The "states" series is unreliable; the "national" series, which saw all volumes published by OUP, is fine. - Sitush (talk) 13:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- The one used here is state one. It's of Haryana. Is it reliable? Admantine123 (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admantine123 No. - Sitush (talk) 13:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- The one used here is state one. It's of Haryana. Is it reliable? Admantine123 (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Just a Reminder.
The Conversation we Had on Saini Surname Talk includes this Page. @Admantine123, @Sitush, @c.fred, @Mrjoegoldberg SikkaSingh (talk) 13:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- @SikkaSingh It shouldn't do. This is a caste-related article, the other concerns a name. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Disclaimer above says "This article is about the Saini community of Punjab. (For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste.) For the communities in North India using the surname, see Saini (surname).
- Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
- Admantine here Again Combines the Both Castes, There is already a Different page made for Mali Saini which is Currently redirected to Saini Caste Page.
- And in the Intro He Included Uttar Pradesh,Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh.Also he Excluded Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi and Just Left the Disclaimer Saying The Saini Community of Punjab.
- On the Other Hand There is the Correct Statement on the Board just beneath it Stating the Correct Saini Populated States. Which are Punjab, India, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu & Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi.
- Also he added
- Castes similar to Sainis in north India are Koeri, Kushwaha, Maurya ,Shakya. Over the time, these communities have come together and started inter-marrying among themselves for caste consolidation.
- With unreliable Sources of a Self Published Author Mahinder Lal Patel with very Poor Ratings to his Books.
- Also he Removed a Very Critical Part of Saini Society.
- Stating:-
- He first made this A State article By Removing Other States from Disclaimer just leaving Punjab and then he Removed this Whole Paragraph.
- Sainis profess in both Hinduism and Sikhism. They have a national organisation called Saini Rajput Mahasabha located in Delhi, established in 1920.<ref name = "Saini Rajput Mahasabha">People of India: Haryana, p 437, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published by Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994
- and he also removed Rajput from This Paragh
- That literally says Surasena Lineage.
- The Sainis of Jalandhar and Hoshiarpur districts claim to be the descendants of the —Rajputs— kings of the Yaduvanshi or Surasena lineage who ruled these kingdoms, who came to these areas to avoid forced conversion to Islam.<ref name = "Surasena Mathura">"Surasena refers to an ancient region named after a Jadu raja who is believed to have lived before Krishna. Bayana (near Mathura) from where the Jadus ruled ..." Against History, Against State: Counterperspectives from the Margins, p 54, Shail Mayaram, published by Permanent Black, 2004
- He also removed this Line In His own edit stating how Mali Saini are different from Saini the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh|Bhagirathi.Geographycally Ofcourse.
- here he Removed the Page of our Previous Coversation Saini Surname from See also.
- All of this After your Edits
- It looks like you Too Added (Mali) in front of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi in the Disclaimer maybe Misinformed but was Corrected Later.
- This Paragh
- Stating
- The people using the Shoorsaini name were by then found only in Punjab, Haryana, Jammu and Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh and Delhi. Malis also claim themselves to be Sainis.
- Can also be Added because of this Book Page No.-1741
- https://books.google.com/books/about/Communities_Segments_Synonyms_Surnames_a.html?id=bfAMAQAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=shoorsaini&f=false
- And the Writer is a Very Highly rated writer who was a Member of
- Indian Administrative Service officer
- was an Indian Administrative Service officer, who served as a Commissioner of Chhotanagpur (1978–80) and Director-General of the Anthropological Survey of India.
- Also Previously added as a Sources in the Marrage Title.
- I talked about this Page on the Saini(Surname) Page. I should have talked about this Page on this Page.
- I understand your frustration.But I am Just Taking advantage of your attention. To Correct some Wrongs.
- Thanks SikkaSingh (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- If you can provide a direct link of that source which say same we can re-add it. I removed the things which were sourced by people of India. If the above source about which you have talked is available and it says what you say, there is no problem in adding it. Cite the source exactly in front of paragraph and provide quote for verification. Admantine123 (talk) 16:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I have Given Sources I added. But the You changed By Removing the Source or Just Just Removing The Text.Why would I need to Give Source For That?
- Anyway I will still add a Few Sources Supporting them.
- Source of the Correction of the Disclaimer/Short Discription Suggested In the Previous/Above Reply.
- India's Communities - Volume 6 - Page 3086- by a K.S Singh
- Source For Mythology Title That has been Totally Deleted By admantine just a Few Minutes ago.More Proof at the End.
- Encyclopaedia Indica: Princely states in colonial India-I - Page 119
- The source for Geographical Correction is Given in the My Previous Reply.
- And about the Inter Marrage. Written under the Post Independence India Article is Completely False and is supported With unreliable Sources of a Self Published Author Mahinder Lal Patel with very Poor Ratings to his Books.
- And Anything the Few things I didn't Provide Source for are Minor Edits Done By You in Already Backed up Articles.
- Also how can you Claim that Anthropological Survey of India is Not a Reliable Source you deleted A Whole Paragh Saying
- I am sorry but people of india state version is not a reliable source. It is being removed en masse from caste articles by @Sitush.Consider adding something else to rewrite the lead
- It's Clearly Backed up buy Indian Government.
- https://ansi.gov.in/
- They even have a Dedicated Website with the Same Name. SikkaSingh (talk) 17:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Like Sitush suggested you need to gain experience for one year to understand why the sources and arguments given by you are not enough to make any change. Do you understand the meaning of WP:SPS. All your arguments are based on some of the writings of colonial period. You have grown up reading the stuff of that period, which has shaped your understanding of truth. This is the problem with most of the people who are not aware of the Wikipedia and real History. Colonial source and the sources by administrators like K.S Singh are rejected because they are not by subject experts. In colonial period too most of the writers were not anthropologist or historians. They were Administrators, who were curious to know about India. They wrote whatever they heard from elite section of society, namely Brahmin and Rajput people. It was easy for latter to tell them what they believe. Modern writers analyse everything critically that's y we use them. And forget about what you believe to be true. Many Rajput also believe that Shivaji was a Sisodiya Rajput, but that's false. There was a Shoorsaini kingdom but they have nothing to do with these Saini people. Your efforts will be wasted as you are understanding it to be Quora and comment section of YouTube, where a group of ill-informed people may argue to establish some frivolous writings on blogs to be historical stuff. Admantine123 (talk) 04:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- If you can provide a direct link of that source which say same we can re-add it. I removed the things which were sourced by people of India. If the above source about which you have talked is available and it says what you say, there is no problem in adding it. Cite the source exactly in front of paragraph and provide quote for verification. Admantine123 (talk) 16:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- You are still not able to get why you won there. That was a surname page and a surname can be used by anyone. This is a caste page and it is well established fact that Sainis are not Rajputs. They just claim to be so. They also claim to be of same descent to that of Porus and Shoorsaini kingdom. But both of these are claim and not reality. In fact as per above thread, i can remove the claim too as the "People of India" state version is not reliable. Admantine123 (talk) 15:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- My Friend I have no Feud with you But you keep Neglecting. Please Read this Book Page No.-1741.
- this B. ok Page No.-1741
- https://books.google.com/books/about/Communities_Segments_Synonyms_Surnames_a.html?id=bfAMAQAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=shoorsaini&f=false
- T
- the Writer is a Very Highly rated writer who was a Member of
- Indian Administrative Service officer
- was an Indian Administrative Service officer, who served as a Commissioner of Chhotanagpur (1978–80) and Director-General of the Anthropological Survey of India. SikkaSingh (talk) 16:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- @SikkaSingh I'm not reading all of that. The redirect from Mali Saini has existed for years & defeated the attempts of numerous waves of POV pushers, their socks and their meatpuppets. It isn't likely to change, certainly not due to the efforts of someone who as yet has very little experience of how & why Wikipedia works as it does.
- I suggest you drop this because it will most likely end in tears & probably a topic ban or block, as with most others over the years. Get some decent experience across a wide range if articles, then perhaps you can revisit this in the unlikely event you still feel it is wrong. - Sitush (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- By "decent experience", I think you'd need a year and a couple of thousand edits at least but YMMV. - Sitush (talk) 17:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am Sure you have More Experience than me but do not try to threaten me. I Like to talk without proof. If you are ignoring to Examine how is that my Problem. And will just Drop it? If it's Wrong it's Wrong. I know you can Get me Banned but I must keep trying. SikkaSingh (talk) 10:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think this national one version of People of india is reliable. Can you provide a quote from that page here as I am not able to view that. Paste what exactly the source say. Admantine123 (talk) 04:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- SAINI
- Synonyms: Mali, Shoorsaini, Yadavas [Haryana]
- Phulmali [Rajasthan]
- Mali, Shursaini [Chandigarh] Mali, Sayani [Delhi]
- Groups/subgroups: Bagri, Deshwal [Haryana]
- Hindu Saini, Sikh Saini [Himachal Pradesh]
- Hindu Saini, Sikh Saini [Chandigarh] *Subcastes: Bhagirathi, Bhariya, Gole, Meerut, Muzaffernagar,
- Phulmati and others in Bijnor, Saharanpur [W. Crooke] Titles: Chaudhary [Chandigarh]
- Surnames: Kishan, Singh [Rajasthan]
- Saini [Delhi]
- Exogamous units/clans: Chauhan, Kachchwaha, Parihar, Parmar, Rathore, Tanwar, Yadav [Haryana] Badwal, Chere, Ghugani, Masute, Mehta, Tambar [Himachal
- Pradesh]
- Badwal, Banje, Benweti, Bhere, Chauhan, Chepru, Chhinde,
- Daule, Dhamrhait, Dheatre, Dhur, Gegyan, Giru, Hare, Kapoor, Lambe, Masute, Pablay, Togar, Vaid [Chandigarh]
- Baghri, Chandolia, Dayia, Gadolia, Indoria, Kataria, Pawar,
- Poonia, Satrawal, Singholia, Tisooria, Tondwal [Delhi] Alagni, Badusl, Badyal, Barayar, Boli (in Hoshiarpur), Gaddi
- Hamarti, Mangar, Pawan [H.A. Rose] Admantine123 (talk) 04:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- SikkaSingh this is what your source say. But what does it proove. It doesn't say that Mali and Saini are different and Saini is a Rajput subcaste, which you are trying to proove. Even jats have many clan with similar names to those of Rajputs and Jats are not Rajputs. You are wasting your time. I don't know what this glossary mean, Sitush can explain if he deciphers the meaning of this.- Admantine123 (talk) 04:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- You got Confused again here is one more Proof
- Telling How Mali Saini of Rajasthan Claimed to be Rajputs to Descendants of Shoorsaini
- Rajasthan - Part 2 - Page 845
- Or, Reference Book for Civil Officers : Containing the Reports of Civil and Criminal Cases Determined by the Chief Court of the Punjab and Decisions by the Financial Commissioner of the Punjab · Volume 39, Part 2. Pg-23 Original from:the University of MichiganPrinted and published for the Punjab Printing Company by W.E. Ball, manager SikkaSingh (talk) 09:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia
- Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures · Volume 3
- By Edward Balfour · 1885
- Here you can see the clear Difference pg no:- 118 SikkaSingh (talk) 10:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
9679474353 2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5 (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
9679474353 2409:4088:8812:799F:0:0:1E21:28A5 (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)