Anshsaini0304 (talk | contribs) Tag: 2017 wikitext editor |
|||
Line 144: | Line 144: | ||
:::Again the same problem, the book you are showing me is published in 1978 and I have already told you that after the 1937, some people misinterprets Sainis as Malis.The first problem is that the book you were showing only allows a "snippet view". We don't know on what basis the author is claiming this and also that there are a lot of books by scholars post raj era that shows Sainis a completely distinct group. Why we shouldn't consider them? |
:::Again the same problem, the book you are showing me is published in 1978 and I have already told you that after the 1937, some people misinterprets Sainis as Malis.The first problem is that the book you were showing only allows a "snippet view". We don't know on what basis the author is claiming this and also that there are a lot of books by scholars post raj era that shows Sainis a completely distinct group. Why we shouldn't consider them? |
||
:::I noticed another important thing that author said Mali was called as Saini in "eastern sub-montaine districts" i.e. the areas of Uttar Pradesh and Saini caste is found only in Undivided punjab not in Uttar Pradesh. This is also proving that author used modern ideology in that. From the above book you are accepting as source, what you can quote is that Malis were called as Sainis too but not that Sainis are Malis. and former line is already in present in the article [[Rajput Mali]] and [[Mali caste|Mali]] that they adopted a new identity in 1937 as 'Saini'. It's better for you to edit [[Rajput Mali]] article that now they are also known as Sainis. Why you are disturbing the Saini identity by doing vice versa? [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 19:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
:::I noticed another important thing that author said Mali was called as Saini in "eastern sub-montaine districts" i.e. the areas of Uttar Pradesh and Saini caste is found only in Undivided punjab not in Uttar Pradesh. This is also proving that author used modern ideology in that. From the above book you are accepting as source, what you can quote is that Malis were called as Sainis too but not that Sainis are Malis. and former line is already in present in the article [[Rajput Mali]] and [[Mali caste|Mali]] that they adopted a new identity in 1937 as 'Saini'. It's better for you to edit [[Rajput Mali]] article that now they are also known as Sainis. Why you are disturbing the Saini identity by doing vice versa? [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 19:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
||
::::Read the very first source provided by me, which says that Sainis of Punjab and surrounding regions are also known as Malis. How hard is to understand that? - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:31, 7 August 2021
India Start‑class Low‑importance | ||||||||||
|
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 February 2021
Saini and mali both are different communities saini are unreserved in many states like jammu and kashmir
http://www.jkscstbccorp.in/schemes-backward-classes.htm
also in punjab it was declared in 2016 by political parties before this saini declared martial caste
Also saini is Rajput caste. See news Rajput Mahasabha conference held
Ambala: The Yaduvanshi Saini Rajput Mahasabha, which represents the Sainis of Punjab, Jammu and North Western Haryana, held a colloquium in which the top level representative and spokesman of Akhil Bhartiya Kshatriya Mahasabha (ABKM)
Please change this article https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/state-editions/2018-07-05-210907.html
So in this article lots of improvement needed.
Rajput Mahasabha conference held
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Chariotrider555 (talk) 00:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Remove mali word with bracket in hatnote summary as mali is separate caste start using saini surname in 1937 saini are not mali source already given you above saini is yaduvanshi rajput. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manvir Safedposh (talk • contribs) 01:18, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Chariotrider555 (talk) 01:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
This is reliable source I am providing you link of list of backward castes in the state of Jammu and Kashmir state of India in the list it doesnot exist it means saini caste is gernal in jammu and kashmir http://www.jkscstbccorp.in/schemes-backward-classes.htm.[1]
Manvir Safedposh (talk) 04:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
@Chariotrider555: Manvir Safedposh (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Government websites and newspapers don't count as reliable sources for castes. See WP:RS, WP:HISTRS, User:Sitush/CasteSources, and [1]. Please find academically published reliable sources for content you want to see added. Chariotrider555 (talk) 04:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 May 2021
Remove the word ‘Mali’ that is written in the top-most line of introduction text . 14.102.118.174 (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ben ❯❯❯ Talk 21:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2021
Please edit Saini(Mali) to Saini only in first paragraph. Saini's are whole different community. Later it was found that Mali community adopt Saini surname. Major portion of Saini community of Punjab are Sikh, also mentioned in journal article on page 653 (singh J 1996) but here it represent that all of them Mali. Even the external link provided in wiki itself shows numerous reliable data of claiming Mali's adopted the surname, which represent that Mali community can adopt Saini surname but nowhere mention that Saini are Mali. Saini is a prestigious caste among Sikh religion and comes in top level discussed in published article by Singh J 2015 1986.
Roman Saini -Jaipur (founder of Unacademy) could belong to Mali caste but Navdeep Saini -Karnal (cricketer) isn't.
Singh, J. (1986, January). THE SIKHS AND THE CENSUS UNDER THE BRITISH. In Proceedings of the Indian History Congress (Vol. 47, pp. 649-657). Indian History Congress. Https://www.jstor.org/stable/44141615)
Judge, Paramjit S. "Caste hierarchy, dominance, and change in Punjab." Sociological Bulletin 64.1 (2015): 55-76. https://doi.org/10.1177/0038022920150104
https://www.sikhcastes.com http://yadavhistory.com/saini_yadavs
In the hatnote of the page Saini i.e. "This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai " The word "Mali" is written in brackets with Saini which should be removed.
- What I think should be changed:The world "Mali" should be removed from the brackets in the hatnote i.e. "This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.
Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai "
- Why it should be changed:The Sainis and Mali both are different castes, Mali caste adopted saini surname during the 1930-1940 decade during the colonial rule. Both are different castes and this word is creating misconception among the people of other castes. Saini caste is descendants of King Shurasena whereas Mali is an occupational caste, both castes are different and mentioned separately in the census of 1881, also in later on cenus too. I am attaching a reference of the census too.
- References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):
Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021. anshsaini (talk) 05:23, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Done, and thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 11:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2021
Please change
"This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
to
"This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
Because Saini community is very much different from Mali community[1], they both are registered separately in the census of 1881[2] and so on. Also the Mali was included under the Rajput sub-category in the 1891 State Census Report for Marwar.[3]
References
- Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021.
- [1]
- [4]
References
- ^ a b "The Sainis believe that their ancestors were Yadavas and that it was the same lineage in which Krishna was born. In the 43rd generation of the Yadavas there was a king known as Shoor or Sur, the son of King Vidaratha....It was in the name of these, father and son, that the community was known as Shoorsaini or Sursaini." People of India: Haryana, p 430, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published by Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994
- ^ Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021.
- ^ Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992
- ^ Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992
Remove Photo
Remove the photo that has been added to this page. I clicked on the link and it takes you to a book where the word Saini is not mentioned once? Seems like a mistake. 20182309L (talk) 21:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Not done, and yet the "Mali" was removed from the caption, so thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 12:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2021
Remove Mali word from bracket with Saini. As Malis use Saini surname as short form of Sainik Kshatriya. But Sainis use it as it is since forever. No harm to anyone but both are distinct castes. Saini is a undivided punjab caste. 106.204.226.255 (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -ink&fables «talk» 10:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2021
Mali are not saini. Mali caste does not exist in punjab and Haryana. 120.21.224.5 (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Done, and thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 12:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have reverted. The entire reason for semi-protection is because people repeatedly contest this (sourced) Mali point without verification. No idea why an experienced contributor would agree to remove it on request, given the history etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe you're wrong? I've been involved with this before and have removed the "Mali" before for the very reason that it is not sourced. You say it is sourced, so show the sources in the article if you have them. Otherwise this will continue to be a matter of contention. P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 13:45, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I have reverted. The entire reason for semi-protection is because people repeatedly contest this (sourced) Mali point without verification. No idea why an experienced contributor would agree to remove it on request, given the history etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth, have you checked the ref no. 8 of the article? I don't have access to it, but from the snippet view, it seems that the subject of the article, i.e. Sainis of Punjab and surrounding areas, are also called Malis. Here are some of the relevant quotes from the source:
p. 3090
In Punjab, the Saini living in the districts of Ropar, Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar and Gurdaspur. They are also known as Mali outside Punjab. They affix Saini as a surname. The community traces its origin from the time of the Mahabharata. They call themselves Shoor Saini or Brave Saini.
p. 3088
The Saini are also known as Shurasaini or Mali in the union territory of Chandigarh. Chaudhary is the title used by them. They claim to have been in the sena (army) of Lord Krishna and to have fought the great war of the Mahabharata.
p. 3089
In the union territory of Delhi, the Saini or Sayani are also known as Mali. It is stated that when Mohammad Ghazni invaded India, the ancestors of the Saini came to Punjab and settled down there finding the land fertile. They are settled in rural as well as urban Delhi. Punjabi is their mother tongue and they are also conversant with Hindi.
We obviously need to have access to it for getting the exact details, but the aboves quotes are visible to me by clicking on the following links: [2], [3], & [4]. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- Singh is as good as a random John Doe. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:55, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- TrangaBellam, this seems like the only indepth & acceptable source about Saini/Mali from the mainstream scholarly publishers. Do you have any better source about Sainis? - NitinMlk (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @NitinMlk The book (India's Communities: N - Z Volume 6 of People of India) you are showing as a resource is not valid or we can say it's irrelevant on the discussion because it was published in 1998.
- & Mali started using Saini as a surname only after 1937,[1] There is also an official order by the jodhpur government for the same which the jodhpur government archives and you can check it anywhere, though I have already provided you a reference for that malis adopted Saini surname in 1937 and the book provided by you as a source is published in 1998 which is irrelevant, Just because Rajput Malis of some states are using Saini surname and that too after a certain year (which have all the resources of it) it doesn't mean Sainis are Malis. Can you provide me any source that says sainis are malis by origin or before 1937 they were anywhere called as Malis or Gardeners? I can show you many resources about origin of Sainis and none of them mentions them as Malis. - anshsaini (talk) 17:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- Anshsaini0304, how does "published in 1998" make the source "irrelevant" or "not valid"? The article's WP:hatnote already gives details about the Rajput Malis. And as far as your "resources" are concerned, I have already seen them. In fact, even after my multiple explanations, you have again created a WP:BLP violation by using your favorite 'resource': [5].
- TrangaBellam, this seems like the only indepth & acceptable source about Saini/Mali from the mainstream scholarly publishers. Do you have any better source about Sainis? - NitinMlk (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- PS: I have tried multiple times to explain the difference between WP:UGC and WP:HISTRS to User:Anshsaini0304, but to no avail. Maybe someone else can give it a try. - NitinMlk (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- I am not saying that a source published in 1998 is irrelevant or not valid. The main problem on this article is that Mali word written in brackets with Saini in the hatnote and I told you a lot of times that since 1937, Malis of Some states are also using Saini surname but that doesn't mean every Saini is a mali.
- Wikipedia is to provide information, not to defame a particular caste. If you are really that much correct then show some sources that says saini are malis or have mali origin before 1937, otherwise remove that Mali word. anshsaini (talk) 18:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- PS: I have tried multiple times to explain the difference between WP:UGC and WP:HISTRS to User:Anshsaini0304, but to no avail. Maybe someone else can give it a try. - NitinMlk (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
When did you tell a "lot of times"? There is just a single prior comment from you on this page. Everything else has already been explained to you – see my previous response here. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Check your talk page, I requested the same thing to you there! Your "explanation" is not satisfactory for many users as you can see in the previous requests, everyone have the same issue but you are just always changing the topic instead of coming to a solution. anshsaini (talk) 18:44, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- I have already provided quotes from an academic source that was already cited in the article and am not changing the topic. Now that you can see the sourced quotes, you are demanding a source that mentions details that won't even help you in removing their alternative name. Anyway, here's a source which desribe them in early 1800s during the rule of Ranjit Singh:
- Gupta, Hari Ram (1991). History of the Sikhs. Vol. V: The Sikh Lion of Lahore, (Maharaja Ranjit Singh, 1799-1839) (1st ed.). Munshiram Manoharlal. p. 480. ISBN 978-8-12-150515-4.
A Mali was generally a market or nursery gardener. He was found mostly in towns and cities where manure was abundant and great demand for his produce. He was a skilful and industrious cultivator. He produced 3 or 4 crops in a year in the same field. In the Yamuna zone he was called Mali and in the eastern sub-montaine districts Saini.
- - NitinMlk (talk) 18:57, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Again the same problem, the book you are showing me is published in 1978 and I have already told you that after the 1937, some people misinterprets Sainis as Malis.The first problem is that the book you were showing only allows a "snippet view". We don't know on what basis the author is claiming this and also that there are a lot of books by scholars post raj era that shows Sainis a completely distinct group. Why we shouldn't consider them?
- I noticed another important thing that author said Mali was called as Saini in "eastern sub-montaine districts" i.e. the areas of Uttar Pradesh and Saini caste is found only in Undivided punjab not in Uttar Pradesh. This is also proving that author used modern ideology in that. From the above book you are accepting as source, what you can quote is that Malis were called as Sainis too but not that Sainis are Malis. and former line is already in present in the article Rajput Mali and Mali that they adopted a new identity in 1937 as 'Saini'. It's better for you to edit Rajput Mali article that now they are also known as Sainis. Why you are disturbing the Saini identity by doing vice versa? anshsaini (talk) 19:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- I have already provided quotes from an academic source that was already cited in the article and am not changing the topic. Now that you can see the sourced quotes, you are demanding a source that mentions details that won't even help you in removing their alternative name. Anyway, here's a source which desribe them in early 1800s during the rule of Ranjit Singh:
- ^ Aggarwal, Partap C (1966). "Problems of Cultural Integration A Muslim Sub-Caste of North India". Economic and Political Weekly. 1 (4): 159–161. JSTOR 4356925.
...the Malis (ie gardners who call themselves Saini now)..