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"'''This article is about the Saini |
"'''This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh ,Uttar Pradesh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai.'''" |
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"'''This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see [[Mali caste]] and [[Rajput Mali]]. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see [[Bhagirathi Mali]]. Not to be confused with [[Siani]] or [[Sinai]].'''" |
"'''This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh ,Uttar Pradesh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see [[Mali caste]] and [[Rajput Mali]]. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see [[Bhagirathi Mali]]. Not to be confused with [[Siani]] or [[Sinai]].'''" |
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Because Saini community is very much different from Mali community<ref name = "Shoorsaini">'' "The Sainis believe that their ancestors were Yadavas and that it was the same lineage in which Krishna was born. In the 43rd generation of the Yadavas there was a king known as Shoor or Sur, the son of King Vidaratha....It was in the name of these, father and son, that the community was known as Shoorsaini or Sursaini."'' People of India: Haryana, p 430, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published by Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994</ref>, they both are registered separately in the census of 1881<ref>{{cite book |last=Balfour |first=Edward |author-link=Edward Balfour |date=1885 |title=The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 |edition=1st |url=https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=yvNWAAAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA294 |access-date=June 23, 2021 }}</ref> and so on. Also the Mali was included under the Rajput sub-category in the 1891 State Census Report for Marwar.<ref>Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992</ref> |
Because Saini community is very much different from Mali community<ref name = "Shoorsaini">'' "The Sainis believe that their ancestors were Yadavas and that it was the same lineage in which Krishna was born. In the 43rd generation of the Yadavas there was a king known as Shoor or Sur, the son of King Vidaratha....It was in the name of these, father and son, that the community was known as Shoorsaini or Sursaini."'' People of India: Haryana, p 430, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published by Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994</ref>, they both are registered separately in the census of 1881, and can be seen in second column where saini mention in last of second column<ref>{{cite book |last=Balfour |first=Edward |author-link=Edward Balfour |date=1885 |title=The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 |edition=1st |url=https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=yvNWAAAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA294 |access-date=June 23, 2021 }}</ref> and so on. Also the Mali was included under the Rajput sub-category in the 1891 State Census Report for Marwar.<ref>Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992</ref> |
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==References== |
==References== |
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== Is saini caste comes under obc ncl asper centre list == |
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== Remove Photo == |
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{{edit extended-protected|answered=yes}} |
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Remove the photo that has been added to this page. I clicked on the link and it takes you to a book where the word Saini is not mentioned once? Seems like a mistake. |
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[[User:20182309L|20182309L]] ([[User talk:20182309L|talk]]) 21:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}}, and yet the "Mali" was removed from the caption, so thank you very much''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>12:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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::Read the top of this page: ''This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.'' |
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::You have not solved the issue and may have made things less accurate. I am not getting into dispute about status like others (seems a separate debate)- Mali is a large group which Sainis may be linked to (or part of), but they are not interchangeable terms. The source for this picture does not mentions Sainis once in the whole book- to keep the picture there is inaccurate and you are confusing phrases, groups, regions and time periods. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:20182309L|20182309L]] ([[User talk:20182309L#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/20182309L|contribs]]) 20:09, September 10, 2021 (UTC)</span> |
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:::[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit extended-protected}} template.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 15:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::So someone has added a random photo and then someone else (PJ Ellsworth-see above) has come and made it even less accurate, and now consensus is needed to remove a clear error?? How can it be any clearer- the source for this picture does not mentions Sainis once in the whole book (which you can click through to) - to keep the picture there is inaccurate. This is not some debate, like some other points on this page, this is just a request to remove an error that has been found (please read my above paragraphs)! Mali is a large group which Sainis may be linked to (or part of), but they are not interchangeable terms. If you cannot accept a change this straight forward, what is the point of this page? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:20182309L|20182309L]] ([[User talk:20182309L#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/20182309L|contribs]]) 20:38, September 29, 2021 (UTC)</span> |
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::::: {{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:20182309L|20182309L]] Hello, and thank you for taking the time to contribute to Wikipedia! As a gentle reminder, please remember to [[WP:SIG|sign your messages]] so readers can quickly follow the flow of conversation. |
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::::: That said, I am sorry that this matter is causing you frustration. Please understand that for many editors - including those that [[WP:ER|patrol requested edits]] - that this is not a subject area those on the English Wikipedia specialize in. What you perceive to be a blatant factual error may not be as such to others. In defense of [[Special:Contributions/ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]], it is very common for users to request images be removed or added trivially when that typically does require [[WP:CON|consensus]], and this was probably one of many edit requests he viewed on the 11th. It doesn't help that the image on Commons explicitly has the caption {{tq|Saini bride and bridegroom with marriage crowns}}. It ''is'' curious that the word "Saini" is absent from the entire book, however. |
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::::: For that reason I've [[WP:BOLD|boldly]] removed the image, as it is possible the uploader on Commons made an error. However, another editor can reasonably return the image at any time if they find I am in the wrong. If that occurs, and you feel that it is still wrong, I would advise seeking help from editors more versed in this subject area. Reopening this edit request, or making a new one, would not be the proper venue. A good start may be [[WP:INDIA|WikiProject India]]. Cheers! —[[User:Sirdog|<span style="color:#058700">'''Sirdog'''</span> ]]([[User talk:Sirdog|talk]]) 02:42, 30 September 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2021 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Saini|answered=yes}} |
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Mali are not saini. Mali caste does not exist in punjab and Haryana. [[Special:Contributions/120.21.224.5|120.21.224.5]] ([[User talk:120.21.224.5|talk]]) 18:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}, and thank you very much''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>12:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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::I have reverted. The entire reason for semi-protection is because people repeatedly contest this (sourced) Mali point without verification. No idea why an experienced contributor would agree to remove it on request, given the history etc. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 13:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Maybe you're wrong? I've been involved with this before and have removed the "Mali" before for the very reason that it is not sourced. You say it is sourced, so show the sources in the article if you have them. Otherwise this will continue to be a matter of contention. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>13:45, 1 August 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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{{od}}{{u|Paine Ellsworth}}, have you checked [https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jHQMAQAAMAAJ the ref no. 8] of the article? I don't have access to it, but from the snippet view, it seems that the subject of the article, i.e. Sainis of Punjab and surrounding areas, are also called Malis. Here are some of the relevant quotes from the source: |
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{{talkquote|p. 3090<br>In Punjab, the Saini living in the districts of Ropar, Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar and Gurdaspur. They are also known as Mali outside Punjab. They affix Saini as a surname. The community traces its origin from the time of the Mahabharata. They call themselves Shoor Saini or Brave Saini.<br>p. 3088<br>The Saini are also known as Shurasaini or Mali in the union territory of Chandigarh. Chaudhary is the title used by them. They claim to have been in the sena (army) of Lord Krishna and to have fought the great war of the Mahabharata.<br>p. 3089<br>In the union territory of Delhi, the Saini or Sayani are also known as Mali. It is stated that when Mohammad Ghazni invaded India, the ancestors of the Saini came to Punjab and settled down there finding the land fertile. They are settled in rural as well as urban Delhi. Punjabi is their mother tongue and they are also conversant with Hindi.}} |
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We obviously need to have access to it for getting the exact details, but the aboves quotes are visible to me by clicking on the following links: [https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Mt9G1e6JF-QC&q=%22In+Punjab,+the+Saini+living+in+the+districts+of+Ropar,+Hoshiarpur,+Jalandhar+and+Gurdaspur.%22&dq=%22In+Punjab,+the+Saini+living+in+the+districts+of+Ropar,+Hoshiarpur,+Jalandhar+and+Gurdaspur.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiF4Zb-iprlAhUZXisKHQT0AfoQ6AEIKDAA], [https://books.google.co.in/books?id=jHQMAQAAMAAJ&q=%22The+Saini+are+also+known+as+Shurasaini+or+Mali+in+the+union+territory+of+Chandigarh+.+Chaudhary+is+the+title+used+by+them+.+They+claim+to+have+been+in+the+sena+(+army+)+of+Lord+Krishna+and+to+have+fought+the+great+war+of+the+Mahabharata+.%22&dq=%22The+Saini+are+also+known+as+Shurasaini+or+Mali+in+the+union+territory+of+Chandigarh+.+Chaudhary+is+the+title+used+by+them+.+They+claim+to+have+been+in+the+sena+(+army+)+of+Lord+Krishna+and+to+have+fought+the+great+war+of+the+Mahabharata+.%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWuZDLm4zyAhX8xzgGHV1FA0QQ6wEwAHoECAIQAQ], & [https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Mt9G1e6JF-QC&q=%22In+the+union+territory+of+Delhi,+the+Saini+or+Sayani+are+also+known+as+Mali.+It+is+stated+that+when+Mohammad+Ghazni+invaded+India,+the+ancestors+of+the+Saini+came+to+Punjab+and+settled+down+there+finding+the+land+fertile.%22&dq=%22In+the+union+territory+of+Delhi,+the+Saini+or+Sayani+are+also+known+as+Mali.+It+is+stated+that+when+Mohammad+Ghazni+invaded+India,+the+ancestors+of+the+Saini+came+to+Punjab+and+settled+down+there+finding+the+land+fertile.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBjvnliJrlAhVHKo8KHUpTDRQQ6wEILjAB]. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 18:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Singh is as good as a random [[John Doe]]. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 18:55, 4 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::{{u|TrangaBellam}}, this seems like the only indepth & acceptable source about Saini/Mali from the mainstream scholarly publishers. Do you have any better source about Sainis? - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] The book (India's Communities: N - Z ''Volume 6 of People of India'') you are showing as a resource is not valid or we can say it's irrelevant on the discussion because it was published in 1998. |
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:::& Mali started using Saini as a surname only after 1937,<ref name="Neo Saini2">{{cite journal|author=Aggarwal, Partap C|year=1966|title=Problems of Cultural Integration A Muslim Sub-Caste of North India|url=https://www.epw.in/journal/1966/4/special-articles/muslim-sub-caste-north-india-problems-cultural-integration.html|journal=Economic and Political Weekly|volume=1|issue=4|pages=159–161|jstor=4356925|quote=...the Malis (ie gardners who call themselves Saini now)..}}</ref> There is also an official order by the jodhpur government for the same which the jodhpur government archives and you can check it anywhere, though I have already provided you a reference for that malis adopted Saini surname in 1937 and the book provided by you as a source is published in 1998 which is irrelevant, Just because [[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] of some states are using Saini surname and that too after a certain year (which have all the resources of it) it doesn't mean Sainis are Malis. Can you provide me any source that says sainis are malis by origin or before 1937 they were anywhere called as Malis or Gardeners? I can show you many resources about origin of Sainis and none of them mentions them as Malis. - [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 17:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::{{u|Anshsaini0304}}, how does "published in 1998" make the source "irrelevant" or "not valid"? The article's [[WP:hatnote]] already gives details about the Rajput Malis. And as far as your "resources" are concerned, I have already seen them. In fact, even after my multiple explanations, you have again created a [[WP:BLP]] violation by using your favorite 'resource': [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harjit_Sajjan&diff=prev&oldid=1036781157]. |
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::::PS: I have tried multiple times to explain the difference between [[WP:UGC]] and [[WP:HISTRS]] to User:Anshsaini0304, but to no avail. Maybe someone else can give it a try. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 17:33, 6 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::I am not saying that a source published in 1998 is irrelevant or not valid. The main problem on this article is that Mali word written in brackets with Saini in the hatnote and I told you a lot of times that since 1937, Malis of Some states are also using Saini surname but that doesn't mean every Saini is a mali. |
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:::::Wikipedia is to provide information, not to defame a particular caste. If you are really that much correct then show some sources that says saini are malis or have mali origin before 1937, otherwise remove that Mali word. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 18:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}}When did you tell a "lot of times"? There is just a single prior comment from you on this page. Everything else has already been explained to you – see my previous response here. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 18:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Check your talk page, I requested the same thing to you there! Your "explanation" is not satisfactory for many users as you can see in the previous requests, everyone have the same issue but you are just always changing the topic instead of coming to a solution. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 18:44, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::I have already provided quotes from an academic source that was already cited in the article and am not changing the topic. Now that you can see the sourced quotes, you are demanding a source that mentions details that won't even help you in removing their alternative name. Anyway, here's a source which desribe them in early 1800s during the rule of [[Ranjit Singh]]: |
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::*{{cite book |last=Gupta |first=Hari Ram |author-link=Hari Ram Gupta |title=History of the Sikhs. Vol. V: The Sikh Lion of Lahore, (Maharaja Ranjit Singh, 1799-1839) |year=1991 |publisher=[[Munshiram Manoharlal]] |isbn=978-8-12-150515-4 |edition=1st |page=480 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zwFDAAAAYAAJ}} |
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:::{{talkquote|A Mali was generally a market or nursery gardener. He was found mostly in towns and cities where manure was abundant and great demand for his produce. He was a skilful and industrious cultivator. He produced 3 or 4 crops in a year in the same field. In the Yamuna zone he was called Mali and in the eastern sub-montaine districts Saini.}} |
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:::- [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 18:57, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Again the same problem, the book you are showing me is published in 1978 and I have already told you that after the 1937, some people misinterprets Sainis as Malis.The first problem is that the book you were showing only allows a "snippet view". We don't know on what basis the author is claiming this and also that there are a lot of books by scholars post raj era that shows Sainis a completely distinct group. Why we shouldn't consider them? |
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:::I noticed another important thing that author said Mali was called as Saini in "eastern sub-montaine districts" i.e. the areas of Uttar Pradesh and Saini caste is found only in Undivided punjab not in Uttar Pradesh. This is also proving that author used modern ideology in that. From the above book you are accepting as source, what you can quote is that Malis were called as Sainis too but not that Sainis are Malis. and former line is already in present in the article [[Rajput Mali]] and [[Mali caste|Mali]] that they adopted a new identity in 1937 as 'Saini'. It's better for you to edit [[Rajput Mali]] article that now they are also known as Sainis. Why you are disturbing the Saini identity by doing vice versa? [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 19:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Read the very first source provided by me, which says that Sainis of Punjab and surrounding regions are also known as Malis. How hard is it to understand that? - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Okay, for your satisfaction I have rechecked the very first source provided by you. Now let me demonstrate some mistakes from that "very first source" which had became a sole reference to conclude something by you. |
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:::::# Currently from your source, we can only see a snippet view which can be seen as major problem currently because no one knows the exact information. From that source check on p. 3086, there is something mentioned about census of 1931 which is also related to the same problem which I am trying to describe here at Wikipedia i.e. at the time of census 1931 to the time of census 1941, a lot of people from [[Rajput Mali]] & [[Mali caste|Mali]] caste started to adopt Saini surname because of the order passed by Government of Jodhpur at that time. |
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:::::# Even you can check out that the same source which is more likely to be called as a book, shows that there are 15 results of the [[Saini]] but it is only showing 3 of them which are also in a snippet view. How you can rely on a book completely which even you can't read properly? Just by reading 2-3 lines of the book, how you can come to a conclusion specially when editing for a global encyclopedia? |
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:::::# The author of the book is not even a historian or any scholar, he is an [[Indian Administrative Service|IAS]] officer who is appointed as Director General of [[Anthropological Survey of India|ASI]]. |
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:::::# Some policies that have been mentioned by sitush will always lead to disputes over this case because he says Raj era sources are not reliable but for the case [[Saini]] caste, it is necessary because that particular event occured in 1937 (In Raj era), the period when mali caste adopted Saini surname, so no one can do anything in this. Editors have to understand this and really needs to come to a solution. |
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:::::[[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 04:40, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}}{{u|Anshsaini0304}}, firstly, this is not ''my'' source: it was already cited in the article and I have already mentioned regarding the snippet view in my first edit of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Saini&diff=1037135413&oldid=1036585722 this section]. |
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Secondly, I have also [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Saini&diff=1037147620&oldid=1037139731&diffmode=source already mentioned] that this seems like the only scholarly source which is discussing the Sainis of Punjab and surrounding areas in-depth. If you have any other source which is discussing them nontrivially then provide it here. Otherwise, we will have to depend on this academic source. |
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Thirdly, we cannot use non-scholarly and outdated Raj-era sources. |
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Finally, if you don't have any scholarly source which has decent coverage about the subject of this article then there is no point in repeating similar things again and again. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 07:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:NitinMlk, Okay give me some some time I can try to provide you scholarly source that will meet your criteria. |
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:Also tell me the reason to having that hatnote, I can't understand when the hatnote states this article is about sainis of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi then why it is written that sainis are given OBC status in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh etc., Seems both are contradicting to each other. |
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:There are many scholarly sources according to which sainis are farmers and agriculturalists and none of them mentions them as Mali, Will they be enough? [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 07:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::So after wasting other editors' so much time in the last few months you will "try to provide" a scholarly source. And those are the community's "criteria", rather than mine. Regarding different states, Sainis are living there as well. Anyway, please provide those sources. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 07:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::It's just I don't know which sources wikipedia accepts, because I am getting trouble in finding those wikipedia community will accept and If you think your timing is getting wasted then who forced you to be an editor here? |
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:::You are still ignoring my question, There are many scholarly sources according to which sainis are farmers and agriculturalists and none of them mentions them as Mali, Will they be enough for you to remove that Mali word? |
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:::However again, I will suggest you to add in Rajput Mali article that are also knowns as Sainis. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 08:01, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::You have been told multiple times that you will need to provide a scholarly source. So why do you still "don't know which sources wikipedia accepts"? Anyway, if you have a scholarly source which is discussing the subject of this article nontrivially then please provide it here. Otherwise, stop repeating the same thing. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 08:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::I hope you know the difference between a farmer and gardener, if you don't then please tell me now otherwise you will create excuses that time too, I will provide the scholarly sources according to which Sainis are farmers and landholders. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 08:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::I am not making excuses. Please provide scholarly sources which are discussing this subject and are supporting your claims, i.e. Sainis are not known as Malis. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 08:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::https://books.google.co.in/books?id=wGiAoOmYVtEC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false |
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:::::::Although this is in hindi but on the page 153 it clearly shows that Sainis were farmers. This is also a scholarly resource. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 08:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::The list mentions occupation of Saini Sikhs of a particular area (Ambala-Hoshiarpur) as farming in 1911. But what does this has to do with the discussion at hand? - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 08:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{u|Anshsaini0304}}, If you have any other source, then please provide it now, as I have logged in just for this discussion. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 09:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I think you are thinking that Mali is something by birth, Mali is also an occupation, if a person is indulged in gardening then he is called Mali. Similarly, If someone is involved in farming then they are farmers. The basic difference is always that Malis used to do gardening in the field of others, Landholders are not Malis, just for your information. |
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:::::::::Also check this scholar source : https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/_/Z2xuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Sainis |
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::::::::: |
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:::::::::p.11 "Peasant-proprietors who were dominated by the Jats, followed at a great distance by the Rajputs, and then by the others like Gujjars, Arains, Awans and Sainis" |
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:::::::::p.225 "The other landholding castes like the Gujjars, Arains, Sainis, Awans and Kambohs were less numerous than jats" |
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:::::::::As you can see from p.11 Sainis are farmers just like others, also the main thing is that p.225 states they are a landholding group and a Gardener is never a landholder, Gardeners just work in the fields of others and landholders are farmers. |
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:::::::::Now [https://books.google.co.in/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&redir_esc=y&id=WmRuAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Sainis check this] too. |
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:::::::::p.225 "The other important peasant castes are of the Rors and Sainis." |
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:::::::::p.228 "Kambojs and Sainis too, who are peasants like the Jats" |
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:::::::::Every source is showing that Sainis are farmers and not the gardeners. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 11:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}} But the source does not say anything about Malis, so it is not at all clear how it is relevant to the discussion. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 12:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Yes, the thing is source doesn't relate Sainis with Malis because they are not related to each other, This is what I am also saying that editors should write the information in the article of [[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] that they are also known as Sainis now, simply because [[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] and [[Mali caste|Malis]] adopted the surname Saini which is also mentioned in their own articles. Just because [[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] / [[Mali caste|Malis]] adopted a new surname doesn't mean that existing members of Saini caste also became Malis. It is definitely a better solution to describe more in the articles of [[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] and [[Mali caste|Malis]] that now a days they are also using the surname "Saini", this will not make confusion to the readers that [[Saini|Sainis]] (Traditional landholding and farming caste) are Malis and give a better insight to both the things correctly to the readers that Malis also uses that surname. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 12:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::We are trying to disambiguate. Some people may come here thinking that Saini and Mali are the same thing, precisely because (as you acknowledge) the terms overlap. That is the entire point and it would be wrong not to note that there is an overlap & provide the reader with an opportunity to distinguish where necessary. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 13:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Again this time you came to manipulate me as there is no matter of disambiguation here. I never said people will come to the Saini article thinking that Saini and Mali are same. |
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:::Just a repeat again What I am saying is that in the hatnote of [[Saini]] article, you are adding Mali word in the brackets to create confusion among the readers. I am pretty sure it will create a confusion among readers that [[Saini|Sainis]] are Malis, but we all know that they are different groups and Sainis are farmers and landholders and that's a different thing that [[Mali caste|Malis]]/[[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] "uses" Saini as their "surname" but I am repeating once again that just by using a surname that person doesn't becomes the member of that caste. Moreover, no one will have problem in mentioning that Saini surname is now a days is also used by these [[Rajput Mali|Rajput Malis]] and [[Mali caste|Mali]] groups simply because it's true that they uses the Saini surname, hence no arguments on that. [[User:Anshsaini0304|anshsaini]] ([[User talk:Anshsaini0304|talk]]) 13:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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== Ignoring and Partiality observed from the editors == |
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I can see that the users Sitush & NitinMlk, are not replying now to the thread previous to this. They really don't want to come to a solution in the discussion. I request them or any other to reply on the thread if they want to say something otherwise, any of the editor change the article as requested in that thread. |
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:Above contributor ({{user|Sandalkhushi}}) now checkuser-blocked. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 08:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 August 2021 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Saini|answered=yes}} |
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Please change "This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai." |
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to |
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"This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai." [[User:Bharal1978|Bharal1978]] ([[User talk:Bharal1978|talk]]) 08:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Above will likely be another sock of {{user|Anshsaini0304}}. Reported for checkuser. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 08:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit extended-protected}} template.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 09:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Consensus on the word Mali in the Hatnote == |
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The word Mali in the hatnote is inappropriate and should be removed. Mali is an occupational caste whereas Sainis are traditionally farmers by occupation. Mali and Rajput Mali groups are found using Saini as their surnames, so it should be added in their articles. [[User:Bharal1978|Bharal1978]] ([[User talk:Bharal1978|talk]]) 12:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:Are you Anshsaini0304? Let's clear that up first because it is pointless wasting our time dealing with a tendentious sockpuppet. If you are not, please read the rest of this talk page & note that the consensus is already there because sources say what the article says - consensus is NOT a vote. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 13:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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I am searching for this from a lot time I just don't get any answer please tell me if someone know [[Special:Contributions/2409:4055:59D:814A:0:0:2ACA:B0A1|2409:4055:59D:814A:0:0:2ACA:B0A1]] ([[User talk:2409:4055:59D:814A:0:0:2ACA:B0A1|talk]]) 05:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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I have read talk page and talk page archives. I am not saying that content in the article is incorrect, I am saying that Mali word should be removed from this article. All the sources provided previously are saying that Sainis are farmers and not Malis. Then Why that Mali word is still there? [[User:Bharal1978|Bharal1978]] ([[User talk:Bharal1978|talk]]) 13:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Saini == |
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Regarding that "consensus is already there", I agree it's there but you should also agree that it didn't came to any effective solution. |
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I know consensus is not a vote, but it's required because article needs lot of improvement not it's not just about the Mali word. |
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I have seen it's previous versions, I found that neutrality is not maintained by you many times in this and many other caste related articles. [[User:Bharal1978|Bharal1978]] ([[User talk:Bharal1978|talk]]) 14:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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The Saini caste is the Kshatriya (warrior) varna, and are traditionally landowners and warriors. mainly found in Punjab, Haryana (except bordering parts of rajasthan), Himachal, Jammu. Maharaja Shoorsen, grandfather of Shri Krishna is the father of saini/shoorsaini dynasty. Sainis are one of the 20 castes designated as 'martial races' by British India Army - List of Martial race . [[Special:Contributions/2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966|2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966]] ([[User talk:2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966|talk]]) 19:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Ah, you are definitely a sock of Andhsaini - there is a "tell" in what you have said. Please stop this because you are not going to get your way. Bye. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 14:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024 == |
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== Sainis were not rajputs and not descendent of krishna == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Saini|answered=yes}} |
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Saini is not kstriya rajput cast, it's a napit cast nai in hindi, they all are chandals, choke shudhra [[User:Kunwar virendrapratap singh bhati|Kunwar virendrapratap singh bhati]] ([[User talk:Kunwar virendrapratap singh bhati|talk]]) 04:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC) |
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The Saini caste is the Kshatriya (warrior) varna, and are traditionally landowners and warriors. mainly found in Punjab, Haryana (except bordering parts of rajasthan), Himachal, Jammu. Maharaja Shoorsen, grandfather of Shri Krishna is the father of saini/shoorsaini dynasty. Sainis are one of the 20 castes designated as 'martial races' by British India Army - List of Martial race . [[Special:Contributions/2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966|2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966]] ([[User talk:2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966|talk]]) 19:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:ARandomName123|ARandomName123]] ([[User talk:ARandomName123|talk]])<sup><templatestyles src="Template:Color/styles.css" /><span class="tmp-color" style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 23:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on |
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024 (2) == |
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{{ |
{{Edit extended-protected|Saini|answered=yes}} |
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The Saini caste is the Kshatriya (warrior) varna, and are traditionally landowners and warriors. mainly found in Punjab, Haryana (except bordering parts of rajasthan), Himachal, Jammu. Maharaja Shoorsen, grandfather of Shri Krishna is the father of saini/shoorsaini dynasty. Sainis are one of the 20 castes designated as 'martial races' by British India Army - List of Martial race . [[Special:Contributions/2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966|2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966]] ([[User talk:2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966|talk]]) 19:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Change the first line from |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:ARandomName123|ARandomName123]] ([[User talk:ARandomName123|talk]])<sup><templatestyles src="Template:Color/styles.css" /><span class="tmp-color" style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 23:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC) |
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This article is about Saini(mali) community |
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To |
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This article is about Saini |
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Community [[Special:Contributions/106.204.231.33|106.204.231.33]] ([[User talk:106.204.231.33|talk]]) 09:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 16:29, 11 April 2024
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2021
Please change
"This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh ,Uttar Pradesh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
to
"This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh ,Uttar Pradesh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."
Because Saini community is very much different from Mali community[1], they both are registered separately in the census of 1881, and can be seen in second column where saini mention in last of second column[2] and so on. Also the Mali was included under the Rajput sub-category in the 1891 State Census Report for Marwar.[3]
References
- Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021.
- [1]
- [4]
References
- ^ a b "The Sainis believe that their ancestors were Yadavas and that it was the same lineage in which Krishna was born. In the 43rd generation of the Yadavas there was a king known as Shoor or Sur, the son of King Vidaratha....It was in the name of these, father and son, that the community was known as Shoorsaini or Sursaini." People of India: Haryana, p 430, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, Published by Published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994
- ^ Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021.
- ^ Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992
- ^ Action sociology and development, pp 198, Bindeshwar Pathak, Concept Publishing Company, 1992
Is saini caste comes under obc ncl asper centre list
I am searching for this from a lot time I just don't get any answer please tell me if someone know 2409:4055:59D:814A:0:0:2ACA:B0A1 (talk) 05:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Saini
The Saini caste is the Kshatriya (warrior) varna, and are traditionally landowners and warriors. mainly found in Punjab, Haryana (except bordering parts of rajasthan), Himachal, Jammu. Maharaja Shoorsen, grandfather of Shri Krishna is the father of saini/shoorsaini dynasty. Sainis are one of the 20 castes designated as 'martial races' by British India Army - List of Martial race . 2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966 (talk) 19:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024
The Saini caste is the Kshatriya (warrior) varna, and are traditionally landowners and warriors. mainly found in Punjab, Haryana (except bordering parts of rajasthan), Himachal, Jammu. Maharaja Shoorsen, grandfather of Shri Krishna is the father of saini/shoorsaini dynasty. Sainis are one of the 20 castes designated as 'martial races' by British India Army - List of Martial race . 2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966 (talk) 19:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 23:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024 (2)
The Saini caste is the Kshatriya (warrior) varna, and are traditionally landowners and warriors. mainly found in Punjab, Haryana (except bordering parts of rajasthan), Himachal, Jammu. Maharaja Shoorsen, grandfather of Shri Krishna is the father of saini/shoorsaini dynasty. Sainis are one of the 20 castes designated as 'martial races' by British India Army - List of Martial race . 2409:40D7:1:C181:4C00:E46C:DE57:7966 (talk) 19:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 23:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)