→Requested move from Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas: Reply Tag: Reply |
→Requested move from Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas: Reply Tag: Reply |
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:::“Political” in being established by Russian citizens, in accepting Russian citizenship, imposing Russian language, Russian education, Russian religion, Russian mobile phone and power grids, Russian vehicle licensing if I remember correctly, Russian officers commanding their military, and forcibly mobilizing their population and sending it to fight in Russia’s war for Ukraine. |
:::“Political” in being established by Russian citizens, in accepting Russian citizenship, imposing Russian language, Russian education, Russian religion, Russian mobile phone and power grids, Russian vehicle licensing if I remember correctly, Russian officers commanding their military, and forcibly mobilizing their population and sending it to fight in Russia’s war for Ukraine. |
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:::Sources do also call them Russian-led and just Russian separatists or Russian proxy forces. —''[[user:Mzajac|Michael]] [[user_talk:Mzajac|Z]].'' 18:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC) |
:::Sources do also call them Russian-led and just Russian separatists or Russian proxy forces. —''[[user:Mzajac|Michael]] [[user_talk:Mzajac|Z]].'' 18:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::::I'm afraid you're giving too much meaning to the "pro" there that I to understand. "Russian-separatists" is wrong because they are not Russian. Yes, Putin gave them the Russian citizenship but they are also Ukrainian citizens, and in any case it's not their ethnicity or nationality that defines them, but their allegiance to the Russian government and to its proxies. Sources? If I google "the pro-Russian separatists" (article "the" is important), I get 58.500 results. Among them, I get Human Rights Watch [https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/28/raw-fear-separatist-controlled-donetsk], 3+ articles by Amnesty International (e.g. [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/10/eastern-ukraine-conflict-summary-killings-misrecorded-and-misreported/]), 8+ articles by the New York Times (e.g. [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/world/europe/ukraine-sloviansk-russia.html]), 20+ articles by BBC (e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50938894]), Foreign Affairs [https://www.jstor.org/stable/43946854?searchText=%22pro-Russian+separatists%22&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2522pro-Russian%2Bseparatists%2522%26so%3Drel&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6536%2Ftest&refreqid=fastly-default%3A6378c3d0dadb7d9f032bfe6213b22e45#metadata_info_tab_contents]. "Pro-Russian separatists" is also used in the officials documents of the EU (e.g. [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022R1354]). If I google "the Russian separatists" basically I get Wikipedia articles, plus a lot of quora.com entries and little more: 61 results overall, and among them only a couple of BBC (e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28532392]), one Deutsche Welle [https://www.dw.com/en/donetsk-and-luhansk-in-ukraine-a-creeping-process-of-occupation/a-60878068] and one NYT [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/17/world/russia-ukraine-news]. So "Russian separatists" is basically a mistake and we should correct it. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC) |
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== add more content on right-wing nationalism == |
== add more content on right-wing nationalism == |
Revision as of 19:13, 5 August 2022
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Alexander "de Krog" Matyushin
I restored the information about Alexander "de Krog" Matyushin being a neo-Nazi and member of Russkiy Obraz. He has a totenkopf tattoo, was a member of NBP and ESM, head of Russkiy Obraz in Donetsk, and described himself as an "Orthodox fascist." Please let me know if you believe he was not a neo-Nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disconnected Phrases (talk • contribs) 05:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Disconnected Phrases: You used two sources, one is maidantranslations.com which is an unreliable WP:SPS and other is a book by Robert Horvath which only describe him as "a former NBP militant". Segaton (talk) 10:35, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Segaton:The second source was for the picture of his totenkopf tattoo and the picture of him giving the Nazi salute and the interview with him. The book names him the Donetsk head of Russian Image (РУССКИЙ ОБРАЗ), a neo-Nazi organization best remembered for a concert and a string of murders. If being a major player in a neo-Nazi organization does not make one a neo-Nazi, then I will add another book source that specifically names him a neo-Nazi. I didn't think this uncontroversial claim needed that many sources. Disconnected Phrases (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- The quote in the new source is "The Donetsk Republic youth organisation was led by Image member and Donetsk neo-Nazi Aleksandr Matyushin (also known as 'Varyag' and 'Aleksandr de Krog')..." Disconnected Phrases (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- I already saw that right after you added and got no issue. Segaton (talk) 22:52, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- If you have any doubts about Russian Image being a neo-Nazi organization, I'd say, they coordinated closely with Blood and Honor, United Brigades 88 (OB-88), and BORN (Боевой организации русских националистов) sprang directly out of Russian Image. For more on the links between Russian Image and BORN, check out the murder trials of Russian Image's founders Nikolay Tikhonov and Ilya Goryachev. Disconnected Phrases (talk) 01:05, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- I already saw that right after you added and got no issue. Segaton (talk) 22:52, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Requested move from Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas
It's frustrating that we have to do this again so soon. Mzajac, it is confusing that you tell me to bring the discussion here, while you unilaterally changed the title of the article last year without any backed discussion. Despite my last requested move being overlooked, this time I thought my new move was going to be neutral enough to where nobody would oppose (By adding just one word).
So let me ask you then, what is the issue with calling them Pro-Russian separatists? Where are the sources that directly call them Russian separatists? They are mostly referred to as pro-Russians by most reliable sources. Al Jazeera 1, Al Jazeera 2, NPR , NBC. There was only one example I could find where they are called Russian-separatist authorities, and yet in their title they still called them Pro-Russian separatists... The Guardian
Another title idea might be Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas? (Like TFSA, Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army in the Syrian conflict.) SkoraPobeda (talk) 22:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I moved the article to correct the capitalization, and to match the spelling of a moved main article. I thought these would be uncontroversial and there were no objections. After your previous move proposals, you might have understood that the designations of the identity of the Russian proxy forces is controversial. I think it is, and so this renaming deserves an RM to get more input and agreement. Participants in the discussion might review previous moves, listed at the top of this talk page.
- I think we should see evidence of references directly to the Donbas military formations, not to the Russian proxy governments, because they have a different relationship with Russian forces. I see at least one of the sources cited above calls them “Russian-backed forces,” collectively. And it’s not clear whether some sources distinguish them at all when they refer to “Russian forces” or “Russian troops.” —Michael Z. 23:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I was going to open a thread on the same topic, then I saw the discussion. "Pro-Russian" is by far the more widespread and correct denominations. Their defying feature is political rather than ethnic. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Source, please?
- “Political” in being established by Russian citizens, in accepting Russian citizenship, imposing Russian language, Russian education, Russian religion, Russian mobile phone and power grids, Russian vehicle licensing if I remember correctly, Russian officers commanding their military, and forcibly mobilizing their population and sending it to fight in Russia’s war for Ukraine.
- Sources do also call them Russian-led and just Russian separatists or Russian proxy forces. —Michael Z. 18:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you're giving too much meaning to the "pro" there that I to understand. "Russian-separatists" is wrong because they are not Russian. Yes, Putin gave them the Russian citizenship but they are also Ukrainian citizens, and in any case it's not their ethnicity or nationality that defines them, but their allegiance to the Russian government and to its proxies. Sources? If I google "the pro-Russian separatists" (article "the" is important), I get 58.500 results. Among them, I get Human Rights Watch [1], 3+ articles by Amnesty International (e.g. [2]), 8+ articles by the New York Times (e.g. [3]), 20+ articles by BBC (e.g. [4]), Foreign Affairs [5]. "Pro-Russian separatists" is also used in the officials documents of the EU (e.g. [6]). If I google "the Russian separatists" basically I get Wikipedia articles, plus a lot of quora.com entries and little more: 61 results overall, and among them only a couple of BBC (e.g. [7]), one Deutsche Welle [8] and one NYT [9]. So "Russian separatists" is basically a mistake and we should correct it. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I was going to open a thread on the same topic, then I saw the discussion. "Pro-Russian" is by far the more widespread and correct denominations. Their defying feature is political rather than ethnic. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
add more content on right-wing nationalism
(from Donetsk People's Republic & Right-wing nationalism)
According to the Italian newspaper la Repubblica, well-known Italian neo-fascist Andrea Palmeri (former member of the far-right New Force party) has been fighting for the Donetsk People's Republic since 2014 and was hailed by Gubarev as a "real fascist" when he joined the DNR militias.[1] Professor Anton Shekhovtsov, an expert on far-right movement in Russia and abroad, reported in 2014 that Polish neo-fascist group "Falanga", Italian far-right group "Millennium" and French Eurasianists had also joined the Donbas separatists.[2][3][4]
An article in Dissent noted that "despite their neo-Stalinist paraphernalia, many of the Russian-speaking nationalists Russia supports in the Donbass are just as right-wing as their counterparts from the Azov Battalion".[5]
In April 2022, news outlets noted that a video posted on Donetsk People's Republic's website showed Denis Pushilin awarding a medal to Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov (Somalia Battalion), while Vorobyov was wearing patches affiliated with neo-Nazism: the Totenkopf used by the 3rd SS Panzer Division, and the valknut. However, the video did not show Vorobyov getting his medal when it was posted on Pushilin's website.[6][7]
in addition, link the articles "Far-right politics in Ukraine & Pro-Russian separatism" and "Donetsk People's Republic & Right-wing nationalism" on the right-wing nationalism section here.
187.39.133.201 (talk) 16:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- ^ Bulfon, Floriana (2022-04-05). "Simboli nazisti sull'uniforme del combattente premiato dai filo-russi di Donetsk". la Repubblica (in Italian).
- ^ Shekhovtsov, Anton (2014-06-06). "Polish fascists are joining with pro-Russian right-wing extremists". Anton Shekhovtsov's blog.
- ^ Shekhovtsov, Anton (2014-06-11). "Anton Shekhovtsov's blog: Italian fascists from Millennium ally with pro-Russian right-wing extremists". Anton Shekhovtsov's blog.
- ^ Shekhovtsov, Anton (2014-08-27). "Anton Shekhovtsov's blog: French Eurasianists join (pro-)Russian extremists in Eastern Ukraine". Anton Shekhovtsov's blog.
- ^ Afrinogenov, Gregory (2 March 2022). "The Seeds of War". Dissent.
- ^ "Pro-Russian Fighter With Nazi Patches Gets Medal for Killing 'Nazis'". Newsweek. 5 April 2022. Retrieved 1 May 2022.
Video shared by Storyful shows a soldier, named as Lieutenant Roman Vorobyov from the "Somalia" motorized rifle battalion, receiving the "St. George's Cross II" award while wearing far-right insignia.
- ^ "A soldier with neo-Nazi symbols on his arm was given a medal by a Russia-backed separatist republic for killing Ukrainian 'nationalists'". Business Insider. 6 April 2022.
The head of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic in Ukraine has been seen in a video awarding a medal to a fighter ... Published on April 3 through the Russia-backed republic's website, the footage also shows the fighter wearing symbols used by neo-Nazis. [...] the video posted on Pushilin's official website did not show Vorobyov receiving his medal