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*::Could you please share some newer sources calling them "Russian separatists"? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
*::Could you please share some newer sources calling them "Russian separatists"? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
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*:::I voted to call them Russian supported, not Russian, as a middle way. Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from '''2014'''. Putin admitted they were actual Russian soldiers in the field in December of '''2015''' [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/vladimir-putin-admits-russian-military-presence-ukraine]. [[User:IntrepidContributor|IntrepidContributor]] ([[User talk:IntrepidContributor|talk]]) 15:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
*:::I voted to call them Russian supported, not Russian, as a middle way. Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from '''2014'''. Putin admitted they were actual Russian soldiers in the field in December of '''2015''' [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/vladimir-putin-admits-russian-military-presence-ukraine]. [[User:IntrepidContributor|IntrepidContributor]] ([[User talk:IntrepidContributor|talk]]) 15:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
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*::::# {{tq|I voted to call them Russian supported}}. But that's not an option here. If you vote "oppose", you get "Russian separatist forces". To have "Russian-backed separatists" you'll have to open another RM |
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*::::# {{tq|Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from 2014}}. Sources continue to call them "pro-Russian". A few examples from 2022: [https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-west-false-flags-pro-russia-separatist-urge-civilian-evacuation/ Politico], [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pro-russian-separatists-threaten-ukraines-mariupol-with-strikes-2022-03-03/ Reuters], [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/20/pro-russian-separatists-step-up-forced-conscription-as-losses-mount Guardian], [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/22/reporters-notebook-how-donbas-evolved-under-separatists Al Jazeera], [https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-prosecution-of-british-fighters-by-pro-russian-separatists-in-ukraine/ EJIL_Talk!], [https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/pro-russian-separatists-claim-control-of-lyman-in-east-ukraine/ Euractiv], [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/21/what-is-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-conflict/ Washington Post], [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-22/ukraine-russia-separatist-regions-donbas-explainer/100850052 ABC], [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-invasion-fears-separatists-military-mobilization-putin-rcna16937 NBC]. Nobody calls them "Russian separatists". |
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*::::[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:08, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
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=== Comment === |
=== Comment === |
Revision as of 23:08, 9 September 2022
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Requested move from Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas
It's frustrating that we have to do this again so soon. Mzajac, it is confusing that you tell me to bring the discussion here, while you unilaterally changed the title of the article last year without any backed discussion. Despite my last requested move being overlooked, this time I thought my new move was going to be neutral enough to where nobody would oppose (By adding just one word).
So let me ask you then, what is the issue with calling them Pro-Russian separatists? Where are the sources that directly call them Russian separatists? They are mostly referred to as pro-Russians by most reliable sources. Al Jazeera 1, Al Jazeera 2, NPR , NBC. There was only one example I could find where they are called Russian-separatist authorities, and yet in their title they still called them Pro-Russian separatists... The Guardian
Another title idea might be Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas? (Like TFSA, Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army in the Syrian conflict.) SkoraPobeda (talk) 22:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I moved the article to correct the capitalization, and to match the spelling of a moved main article. I thought these would be uncontroversial and there were no objections. After your previous move proposals, you might have understood that the designations of the identity of the Russian proxy forces is controversial. I think it is, and so this renaming deserves an RM to get more input and agreement. Participants in the discussion might review previous moves, listed at the top of this talk page.
- I think we should see evidence of references directly to the Donbas military formations, not to the Russian proxy governments, because they have a different relationship with Russian forces. I see at least one of the sources cited above calls them “Russian-backed forces,” collectively. And it’s not clear whether some sources distinguish them at all when they refer to “Russian forces” or “Russian troops.” —Michael Z. 23:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I was going to open a thread on the same topic, then I saw the discussion. "Pro-Russian" is by far the more widespread and correct denomination. Their defying feature is political rather than ethnic. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Source, please?
- “Political” in being established by Russian citizens, in accepting Russian citizenship, imposing Russian language, Russian education, Russian religion, Russian mobile phone and power grids, Russian vehicle licensing if I remember correctly, Russian officers commanding their military, and forcibly mobilizing their population and sending it to fight in Russia’s war for Ukraine.
- Sources do also call them Russian-led and just Russian separatists or Russian proxy forces. —Michael Z. 18:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you're giving too much meaning to the "pro" there. "Russian-separatists" is wrong because they are not Russian. Yes, Putin gave them Russian citizenship but they are also Ukrainian citizens, and in any case it's not their ethnicity or nationality that defines them, but their allegiance to the Russian government and to its proxies. Re
Source, please?
If I google "the pro-Russian separatists" (article "the" is important), I get 58.500 results. Among them, I get Human Rights Watch [1], 3+ articles by Amnesty International (e.g. [2]), 8+ articles by the New York Times (e.g. [3]), 20+ articles by BBC (e.g. [4]), Foreign Affairs [5]. "Pro-Russian separatists" is also used in the officials documents of the EU (e.g. [6]). If I google "the Russian separatists" basically I get Wikipedia articles, plus a lot of quora.com entries and little more: 61 results overall, and among them only a couple of BBC (e.g. [7]), one Deutsche Welle [8] and one NYT [9]. So "Russian separatists" is basically a mistake and we should correct it. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)- I don’t understand what you mean “they are not Russian”? (And they are Russia’s proxies in Ukraine.) You’ve already said their defining feature is political, and they are politically ultra-Russian. They are Russian citizens. They identify with Russian nationality, culture, and probably ethnicity. Their allegiance is not just to Russian government, but to extremist Russian ultranationalism, imperialism, and Orthodoxy.
- Googling is not a good indication of usage in reliable sources. Have a look at WP:SET and use Google Books and Google Scholar. Certainly using “Russian separatists” is not a mistake if the sources you cite are using it. And let’s try to actually survey the terminology for the separatist militants’ forces rather than the republics, the leaders and warlords, or the general population. —Michael Z. 19:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- As I said - and I think we are in full agreement on this - they are loyal to Russia: they are politically ultra-Russian, as you say. But obviously that doesn't make them Russian; it makes them pro-Russia, or am I wrong? With regard to the sources, there is simply no argument. You yourself can do a research on Google Books. You'll see that they are called "pro-Russian" everywhere, almost in each and every result one gets. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I count 36 book results since 2014 of “Russian proxy forces”[10] (Google says “Page 4 of about 2,280 results”), 161 for “Russian militants”[11] (“Page 17 of about 20,100 results”), and 112 for “Russian separatist forces”[12] (“Page 12 of about 13,900 results”). —Michael Z. 14:07, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- Let's focus on "Russian separatist forces". If I make a research looking for books with "Russian separatist forces", the NEAR TOTALITY of the results I get contain "pro-Russian separatist forces", e.g. "Ukraine in the Crossfire", "The Return of the Cold War: Ukraine, The West and Russia - Pagina 114", "The Territories of the Russian Federation 2020", "The Drone Age: How Drone Technology Will Change War and Peace", "Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law Volume 19, 2016", "Market Power Politics: War, Institutions, and Strategic ... - Pagina 8" and so on. Moreover, the very few "true" "Russian separatist forces" I get refer to something different, e.g. "This allowed joint Russian–separatist forces not only to recapture" which means "joint Russian and pro-Russian separatist forces" (The Handbook of European Defence Policies and Armed Forces); " overall losses of Russian/separatist forces" again meaning "Russian forces + pro-Russian separatist forces" (Not Only Syria? The Phenomenon of Foreign Fighters in a ... - Pagina 65). Please compare "the Russian separatist forces" with "the pro-Russian separatist forces"; the article "the" is important because if you search for "Russian separatist forces" only you will also get "pro-Russian separatist forces" results. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- I’m unconvinced by that. There are other names just as common.
- Another issue confusing naming is that currently more sources consider these formations part of Russian forces. As a quick test, I scanned the first five articles in news results for “Lysychansk,” where in the battle of Lysychansk supposedly DLNR forces were the vanguard that occupied the city. Who does the media say took the city? Not cherry-picked:
- Newsweek:[13] “Russian forces claimed to have captured Lysychansk.”
- Reuters: [14] “its fall to Russian forces,” although “Moscow-backed separatist proxies have been fighting Ukraine” in reference to the last eight years.
- Washington Post (MSN):[15] “Moscow announced earlier in the day that Russian forces had captured Lysychansk”
- Ukrinform:[16] “Armed Forces of Ukraine have struck the barracks of Russian invaders”
- RFE/RL:[17] “victory for Russian forces,” “Russian occupation,” but individual identified in photo captions are “Russian-backed separatists” and “separatist forces.”
- —Michael Z. 17:02, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- We couldn't name this article "Russian forces (in Ukraine)" because that would include both the Russian army and the pro-Russian separatists. Based on your investigations, which denomination do you think is more common in RS on the subject of this article, Russian separatists or pro-Russian separatists? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- I’m not suggesting that. But it is an indication that their identity is not completely separate from Russian forces’. Before the open invasion Russian forces were in eastern Ukraine covertly, and the press often conflated the two as “separatists” or “Russian-led.”
- Look at MH17 coverage, for example, where the press is well aware that investigations found that a Russian missile was used, operated by a Russian crew, and with the direct participation of GRU and FSB, but rarely goes deeper than to say it was “separatists” with a “Russian missile” or something to the effect.
- Since the invasion by 200k Russian forces, they continue to conflate them, but more often identify them as Russian forces, and occupied Ukraine as “Russian controlled” in the scope of the war. They rarely identify “separatists” or “militants” generically when specific military formations or individuals are referred to, and even more rarely identify one or other of the so-called DLNR republics, typically clumping them together.
- The “DLNR forces’” identity has never been clearly defined in the press, and never separated from Russian forces’. —Michael Z. 15:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with this. It basically reflects what one reads in this article, if I'm not wrong, especially in the lead section and in the section "Relationship with Russia". Obviously these are crucial information that this article needs to provide. But with regard to choosing the title, we should follow WP:TITLE ("Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources") and stick to WP:COMMONNAME. "Pro-Russian" is by far more common. It is also more precise, because the separatists are not necessarily Russian but are always (as far as I know) pro-Russia. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- We couldn't name this article "Russian forces (in Ukraine)" because that would include both the Russian army and the pro-Russian separatists. Based on your investigations, which denomination do you think is more common in RS on the subject of this article, Russian separatists or pro-Russian separatists? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- Let's focus on "Russian separatist forces". If I make a research looking for books with "Russian separatist forces", the NEAR TOTALITY of the results I get contain "pro-Russian separatist forces", e.g. "Ukraine in the Crossfire", "The Return of the Cold War: Ukraine, The West and Russia - Pagina 114", "The Territories of the Russian Federation 2020", "The Drone Age: How Drone Technology Will Change War and Peace", "Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law Volume 19, 2016", "Market Power Politics: War, Institutions, and Strategic ... - Pagina 8" and so on. Moreover, the very few "true" "Russian separatist forces" I get refer to something different, e.g. "This allowed joint Russian–separatist forces not only to recapture" which means "joint Russian and pro-Russian separatist forces" (The Handbook of European Defence Policies and Armed Forces); " overall losses of Russian/separatist forces" again meaning "Russian forces + pro-Russian separatist forces" (Not Only Syria? The Phenomenon of Foreign Fighters in a ... - Pagina 65). Please compare "the Russian separatist forces" with "the pro-Russian separatist forces"; the article "the" is important because if you search for "Russian separatist forces" only you will also get "pro-Russian separatist forces" results. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- I count 36 book results since 2014 of “Russian proxy forces”[10] (Google says “Page 4 of about 2,280 results”), 161 for “Russian militants”[11] (“Page 17 of about 20,100 results”), and 112 for “Russian separatist forces”[12] (“Page 12 of about 13,900 results”). —Michael Z. 14:07, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
- As I said - and I think we are in full agreement on this - they are loyal to Russia: they are politically ultra-Russian, as you say. But obviously that doesn't make them Russian; it makes them pro-Russia, or am I wrong? With regard to the sources, there is simply no argument. You yourself can do a research on Google Books. You'll see that they are called "pro-Russian" everywhere, almost in each and every result one gets. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you're giving too much meaning to the "pro" there. "Russian-separatists" is wrong because they are not Russian. Yes, Putin gave them Russian citizenship but they are also Ukrainian citizens, and in any case it's not their ethnicity or nationality that defines them, but their allegiance to the Russian government and to its proxies. Re
- I was going to open a thread on the same topic, then I saw the discussion. "Pro-Russian" is by far the more widespread and correct denomination. Their defying feature is political rather than ethnic. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Well, the separatist units, at the battalion level and up, are acting under direct command of Russian Army officers. Hence, they are actually Russian rather than "pro-Russian" forces and described accordingly in sources. These forces, just as the entire administration of these "republics" are directly controlled by Kremlin. My very best wishes (talk) 03:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 13 August 2022
Russian separatist forces in Donbas → Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas – "Pro-Russian" is BY FAR more common in all reliable sources (see my comment here above at 19:13, 5 August 2022) and is also more precise, because the separatists are not necessarily Russian, but are always pro-Russia. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:05, 13 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 03:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 10:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think I made a mistake. For some reason, this requested move has not been listed in WP:RMC. Can anyone help please? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Gitz6666: No mistake made by you. Bot's down. I am manually clerking the list while the bot recovers. Adding to the list now. – robertsky (talk) 08:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Super Ψ Dro 09:38, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose If WP:COMMONNAME is the only rationale, please show evidence it’s the most common term in WP:reliable sources compared to, say, Russian separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, or separatist militias, or Russian militants, or, or Russian-led, Russian-supported, Russian proxy, or something else compared to the current title. I don’t believe the discussion above shows such evidence. —Michael Z. 20:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion above shows evidence that "pro-Russian separatist forces" is (by far) more common than "Russian separatist forces". If, however, you think that other denominations are even more common, then it's up to you to show that that is the case. Besides, even if, say, "Russian-led separatist forces" were more common, that would not be a reason for maintaining "Russian separatist forces", which is basically a mistake (by the way, I doubt that Russian-led, Russian-supported etc. are not more common; "Russian affiliated armed groups", however, is the denomination used by OHCHR and other international agencies and organisations, so it's worth considering; I created a redirect a few weeks ago). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Anyway, note the following:
- If I search on google "Russian-led separatist", I get 4.790 results; "Russian-supported separatist", I get 2.410 results; "pro-Russian separatist", I get 132.000 results.
- If I search "Russian separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine", as proposed by User:Mzajac, what I get is mostly "pro-Russian separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine". E.g., "pro-Russian" in Deutsche Welle, The Times, Business Insider Radio Free Europe Yale MacMillan Center Reuters The Guardian Washington Times The Moscow Times American Military News France24; "Russian" in US Embassy in Ukraine (title), Euractiv (image caption) ABC News (possibly a typo?). Note that many apparent "Russian separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine" are in fact "(combined) Russian-separatist forces", which means "Russian forces + pro-Russian separatist forces".
- Analogously, if I search for "Russian separatist militia", most of the results I get are "pro-Russian separatist militia".
- "Russian militants" is too generic, but again, one mostly gets "pro-Russian militants" - please have a look, it's very easy to verify. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Searching in Google is not evidence of usage in WP:RS. A list of individual sources that support one choice is not evidence of relative frequency. —Michael Z. 17:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- How do you suggest looking for evidence of usage in WP:RS that you could find convincing? Note that if one searches in Google Scholar the results are even more unquestionable: they all use "pro-Russian", and "Russian separatist" is nearly non-existent. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Anyway, note the following:
- The discussion above shows evidence that "pro-Russian separatist forces" is (by far) more common than "Russian separatist forces". If, however, you think that other denominations are even more common, then it's up to you to show that that is the case. Besides, even if, say, "Russian-led separatist forces" were more common, that would not be a reason for maintaining "Russian separatist forces", which is basically a mistake (by the way, I doubt that Russian-led, Russian-supported etc. are not more common; "Russian affiliated armed groups", however, is the denomination used by OHCHR and other international agencies and organisations, so it's worth considering; I created a redirect a few weeks ago). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. As I already commented in the previous section just above, the separatist units, at the battalion level and up, are acting under direct command of Russian Army officers (this is sourced on the page). Hence, they are actually Russian rather than "pro-Russian" forces and described accordingly in sources. These forces, just as the entire administration of these "republics" are directly controlled by Kremlin. My very best wishes (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- "Russian" here does not mean that the forces are composed by ethnic Russians, only that they belong to Russian military forces (not "pro-Russian" military forces!), even though they are not officially a part of the regular Russian army. Russian army in general also does not composed only by ethnic Russians. I have no judgement about relative frequency of different terms, but "Russian separatist forces" is a correct descriptive title, and it can be found in references. My very best wishes (talk) 10:41, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support They are pro-Russians so the title must clearly say that. Mainstream sources like Al-Jazeera,[18] The Guardian,[19] Washington Post,[20] VOA,[21] Reuters,[22] are also clear in this regard. Segaton (talk) 09:23, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support as reasonable. These separatists are largely "Pro-Russian" than "Russian" themselves. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 08:51, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- What are they exactly? Donetsk, Luhansk, and “pro-Russian” are not national identities. They don’t identify as Ukrainian, and their leadership demonizes Ukrainians. The Russians have made over 720,000 of them Russian citizens.[23] —Michael Z. 18:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed they are not identified by their nationality, which can be Russian, Ukrainian, Russian and Ukrainian (dual citizenship) and also foreign. They are identified by their political goals and allegiances and by their military activities. We have WP:CRITERIA precisely to avoid unfettered NNPOV speculations about the authentic nature of the subject ("they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!"). All reliable sources refer to them as "pro-Russian separatists" with the sole exception of Wikipedia and quora.com (which are not RS). "Russian separatist" is not based on sources and is not a WP:NPOVTITLE. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- They are trying to annex themselves into Russia. This makes them at least Russian by self-identification. So, the descriptor "Russian" can simply mean that they identify as Russian. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- It would make more sense to call these people "Pro-Russian" if they were some highly foreign ethnic group like the Crimean Tatars or the Kalmyks or any one of the Caucasian ethnic groups. The fact of the matter is, they are ethnic-Russians and/or ethnic-Ukrainians (who, mind you, are not that distinct from Russians anyway), and they self-identify as Russians, and they are supported by Russia to a significant degree, and they want to become the newest provinces of Russia. How are they not Russian, again? Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:50, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's also not like we could just waltz into the occupied territories and conduct an independent census on the ethnic ancestry and self-identification of the citizens of the DPR and LPR. If we aren't Russian sympathizers, we will get shot on sight. These people are terrorists. Ukraine has never had access to those regions ever since they broke away in 2014, so there has not been any major connection between the Ukrainian government and the regions since then. On the other hand, the Russian government has been working hard over the past 8+ years to assimilate those people into the Russian civilization. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- To me, the so-called "reliable sources" mean nothing when it is impossible for a non-sympathizer to step inside the territory, or at least not whilst closely monitored by armed escorts. If I can't actually go inside the territory of the DPR and the LPR myself in order to have a look on my own to figure out what's what in there, then I'm frankly not going to accept any "reliable sources" at face value. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:11, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed they are not identified by their nationality, which can be Russian, Ukrainian, Russian and Ukrainian (dual citizenship) and also foreign. They are identified by their political goals and allegiances and by their military activities. We have WP:CRITERIA precisely to avoid unfettered NNPOV speculations about the authentic nature of the subject ("they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!"). All reliable sources refer to them as "pro-Russian separatists" with the sole exception of Wikipedia and quora.com (which are not RS). "Russian separatist" is not based on sources and is not a WP:NPOVTITLE. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- What are they exactly? Donetsk, Luhansk, and “pro-Russian” are not national identities. They don’t identify as Ukrainian, and their leadership demonizes Ukrainians. The Russians have made over 720,000 of them Russian citizens.[23] —Michael Z. 18:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose not even russians are pretending they're distinct anymore—blindlynx 14:01, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support Common name as apparent from mainstream sources. Common sense also applied per Gitz666. NavjotSR (talk) 09:33, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support: Per WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
- How is "Pro-Russian" concise when "Russian" is even shorter? I am confusion. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:42, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - The forces are clearly Russian-supported the vast majority of the time. Indeed, in the past, it may have been legitimate to argue that they were somewhat separate. Now, after the February 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the links between Russia and the so-called "Pro-Russian forces" are undeniable. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:42, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Still they don't become "Russian separatists" but still remain "Pro-Russian separatists". If you want to talk about Russian war then you have 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 06:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- If they are ethnic-Russians, then we can still refer to them as Russian separatists. Their ethnicity is a major factor here, which is why I personally consider the situations in Abkhazia and South Ossetia to be different; those people belong to Caucasian groups, so they absolutely aren't Russian. On the other hand, the people inside the DPR and LPR seem to mostly be ethnic-Russians. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Jargo Nautilus Nobody here is denying their links with Russia. We are denying that they are Russian themselves, and that their being Russian is the defining feature that best identifies them. By the way, you yourself speak of "so-called pro-Russian forces", which I find quite indicative: the very sentence "the links between Russia and the Russian forces" wouldn't make any sense, so if you want to speak about those links and how they evolved in time you need to use "pro-Russian" terminology. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:38, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Read my replies to your comments above. There's really no way for us to know for sure what these people are since we have no way to independently verify this information. The "reliable sources" won't cut it because the international media has barely been able to scratch the surface of what is actually happening in the occupied territories. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:42, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- We also have to clarify that if they are not Russians, then what are they, and can you prove what you think they are? I can think of alternative descriptions being, "They are Ukrainians", or "They are Donetskians and Luhanskians". Personally, I am doubtful of the existence of Donetskian and Luhanskian national identities. That means the most likely candidate is "They are Ukrainians". In the citizenship sense, they maybe can be described that way (although maybe not after many of them have acquired Russian citizenship). In the ethnic sense, it seems that most of them actually are ethnic-Russians, with ethnic-Ukrainians being a minority (and they are persecuted for their identity too). Indeed, we could possibly refer to the citizens of the DPR and LPR as "Russian-Ukrainians", "Russians in Ukraine", or "Ethnic-Russians". The descriptor "pro-Russian" is a bit ridiculous considering that most of these people seem to be Russians themselves. Indeed, maybe the descriptor "pro-Kremlin" (i.e. pro-Russian Federation government) makes more sense since this doesn't preclude the possibility that they are ethnic-Russians themselves. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:57, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- I quote:
"they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!"
, which is a quote of yours from above that is seemingly tongue-in-cheek, i.e. accusing the opposition of holding this viewpoint, which implies that you yourself hold the opposite viewpoint. It can be presumed from this quote that you personally hold the opinion that the citizens of the DPR and LPR should be labelled as "Ukrainians, from inside Ukraine", presumably as some kind of "pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine", to be precise. - Let's be clear; the agenda of the Russian Federation at the moment (and maybe for many years prior?) is that Ukraine is not a real sovereign state. The stated goal of the February 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is to eradicate the Ukrainian people as a nation, and to absorb the Ukrainian-speakers and Russian-speakers alike into the Russian civilization. The war is genocidal by nature, and, contrary to Russian claims, the genocide is mainly being conducted by the Russians, not by the Ukrainians.
- Overall, it's pretty preposterous to assert that these "pro-Russian dissidents" actually identify as Ukrainians. They are on the side of a regime that doesn't even recognise the existence of Ukraine as a nation. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 11:56, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
It can be presumed from this quote that you personally hold the opinion that the citizens of the DPR and LPR should be labelled as "Ukrainians, from inside Ukraine"
. No, it can't. I argued that their nationality and/or ethnicity are irrelevant for the purposes of deciding the title of this article. Political goals ("pro-Russian separatist...") and military activities ("...forces in Donbas") are sufficient for identifying the subject. This is the denomination RS use, and so should we. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:09, 29 August 2022 (UTC)- Quite frankly, you are kidding yourself if you think that race and ethnicity are not major factors here. This entire war in Ukraine is about eradicating the Ukrainian nation and absorbing its citizens into the Russian civilization. The entire situation is ethnic and racial. Not to mention the fact that the official Russian line is that the Ukrainians are "persecuting" Russian-speakers and ethnic-Russians in Ukraine. The Russian Federation cited "self-determination" (of ethnic-Russians) when they recognised the autonomy (2014) and then sovereign independence of the DPR and LPR breakaway states. Do not deny your Russian sympathies; the comment you made about Ukrainians (the one that I highlighted) clearly indicates your political stance. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- I quote in full:
We have WP:CRITERIA precisely to avoid unfettered NNPOV speculations about the authentic nature of the subject ("they are not truly Ukrainians, they are foreign enemies!").
- According to this entire sentence of yours from above, you believe that there must be some kind of an "authenticity" about the DPR and LPR separatist movements, beyond just merely being puppets of Russia. What this suggests is that you think the Donbas separatists have their own independent agency outside of the wider Russian agenda.
- I would argue on the contrary that the DPR and LPR are primarily driven by the Russian Federation, even if not 100%. Before the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, there was less evidence of this. Now, with the war still raging on, it's pretty clear that the DPR and the LPR are under complete Russian control. So, any semblance of legitimacy in these two statelets that once existed is long gone now. We report the facts as we know them, not as we were once speculating about them. You have suggested above that the DPR and LPR might have been more independent before and have only recently become more closely linked to Russia (which was also something that I threw out as a hypothetical). However, it is indeed more important to gauge the situation on the ground now, not the situation that might have existed before. We know now that the DPR and the LPR have always been inextricably linked with the Russian Federation, almost certainly since the very beginning. The mask has come clean off. They have revealed who they truly are. And, in the words of the tyrant Lavrov, "they are not afraid to show it".2 Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:34, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Furthermore, do you deny that the DPR and the LPR are "foreign enemies" of Ukraine when they are quite clearly slaughtering Ukrainian civilians indiscriminately at the moment? What is their body count now? It must be in the thousands, especially in Mariupol, for example. Conversely, how many Donbas civilians did Ukraine kill between April 2014 and February 2022? Civilians, not combatants. Not many, I suspect? Now, who are the foreign enemies here? Do you still deny your political bias? Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Still they don't become "Russian separatists" but still remain "Pro-Russian separatists". If you want to talk about Russian war then you have 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 06:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - the separatists see themselves as Russian and most of them have Russian passports or come from Russia itself. ~Asarlaí 09:57, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- oppose. Per common name. Panam2014 (talk) 11:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Could you please explain @Panam2014 why do you believe that "Russian separatist forces" is the common name of the subject of this article? The overwhelming majority of reliable sources (including Human Rights Watch, BBC, the Council of the European Union, Foreign Affairs) use "pro-Russian separatist forces". See references here above at 19:13, 5 August 2022. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:48, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- As I've pointed out below, I actually prefer the term "Russian-backed separatists". I'm not sure why you seemingly haven't mentioned this term at all. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:09, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Quite frankly, the term "pro-Russian separatists" sounds silly to me. The term "Russian-backed separatists" sounds more logical. Mind you, I don't really care what your sources say, since you can obviously cherry-pick however you like. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- The separatists are not defined by being pro-Russian. That's simply a characteristic that they may have. The defining characteristic of the separatists is that they are anti-Ukrainian, I would argue. So, why not instead refer to them as "anti-Ukrainian separatists"? That actually makes more sense, if you think about it. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- "Russian-backed separatist forces" is quite rarely used in reliable sources. "Pro-Russian separatist forces" is way more common, and it is also more concise as it avoids the compound participle adjective "Russian-backed". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:22, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- "Anti-Ukrainian separatists" is still on the table. Alternatively, we could call them "ethnic-Russian separatists in Donbas". We know that they are separatists in Donbas, so an adjective is only necessary to differentiate them from other potential separatists in the same region. We could just call them "separatists in Donbas". By the way, "Russian separatists in Donbas" is more concise than "pro-Russian separatists in Donbas". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 14:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's also unclear why we have to refer to these groups as "forces" specifically. We could refer to them as "militias" instead. "Ethnic-Russian separatist militias in Donbas" has a nice ring to it. Or, "Russian separatist militias in Donbas". Or "Russian-backed separatist militias in Donbas", if you want to spice things up. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 14:25, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- "Russian-backed separatist forces" is quite rarely used in reliable sources. "Pro-Russian separatist forces" is way more common, and it is also more concise as it avoids the compound participle adjective "Russian-backed". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:22, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Panam2014, your comment above,
oppose. Per common name
, is not clear. "Common name" is the reason given by those who support the requested move. Did you mean "support" and wrote "oppose" by mistake? If that's not the case, and you meant what you wrote, could you please explain why you believe that "Russian separatist forces" is the WP:COMMONNAME of the subject of the article? If you don't explain your views, the closer will not know if and how to take them into account. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Could you please explain @Panam2014 why do you believe that "Russian separatist forces" is the common name of the subject of this article? The overwhelming majority of reliable sources (including Human Rights Watch, BBC, the Council of the European Union, Foreign Affairs) use "pro-Russian separatist forces". See references here above at 19:13, 5 August 2022. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:48, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support calling it Pro-Russian separatists in Donbas or alternatively Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas. All in all, the title itself is a complicated issue. Since these separatist forces (outside of thousands of Russian volunteers) are former Ukrainian citizens who became DPR/LPR and/or Russian citizens, most of them are ethnically Russian or Russian-speaking, and they have views that stem back to the 'Russian Spring' movement of 2014 in Southern and Eastern Ukraine. The original idea was to become autonomous within Ukraine, being pro-federalization, until they changed it to separatism of joining Russia due to the start of Ukraine's brutal ATO. Hence why it is easier to call them Pro-Russian separatists. I apologize for the Original Research here, but it is relevant to bring up points that have to be addressed when talking about the issue of this title. SkoraPobeda (talk) 08:42, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify, the "ATO" refers to the Ukrainian "Anti-terrorist Operation Zone". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Support Absolutely more realistic, concise, and commonly accepted name. "Pro-Russian" is also in line with 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine. Accesscrawl (talk) 12:53, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- I think the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine needs to be renamed to 2014 Russian fomented unrest in Ukraine per the sources in the page. IntrepidContributor (talk) 06:54, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Support More frequently used title and provides a better description of the separatists. Shankargb (talk) 23:38, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose "Pro-Russian separatist forces" per Very Best Wishes. Support "Russian-supported separatist forces" per Michael Z. IntrepidContributor (talk) 06:17, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. From CNN to BBC, New York Times, the Guardian, Washington Post, Human Rights Watch, even the Council of the European Union in its official documents: all sources call them pro-Russian, but some editors have decided that actually they are Russian, even if they were born in Ukraine and have a Ukrainian passport, because Russian is what they truly are. This is the piece of OR that the Wikipedians (and quora.com) have to offer to the world... Anyway, it's been going on for quire a while, isn't it time for asking for a closure? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:16, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, some earlier sources call them "pro-Russian", but newer sources have unraveled evidence of how the unrest was fomented by the Kremlin and how the separatist forces were supported by the AFRF, FSB and GRU. This "separatism" is entirely a Russian military operation which is why the article is titled Russian separatist forces and not Ukrainian separatism. You could perhaps write another article about the pro-Russia political movement, what's left of it. IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:00, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Could you please share some newer sources calling them "Russian separatists"? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- I voted to call them Russian supported, not Russian, as a middle way. Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from 2014. Putin admitted they were actual Russian soldiers in the field in December of 2015 [24]. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I voted to call them Russian supported
. But that's not an option here. If you vote "oppose", you get "Russian separatist forces". To have "Russian-backed separatists" you'll have to open another RMMost of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from 2014
. Sources continue to call them "pro-Russian". A few examples from 2022: Politico, Reuters, Guardian, Al Jazeera, EJIL_Talk!, Euractiv, Washington Post, ABC, NBC. Nobody calls them "Russian separatists".
- Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:08, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- I voted to call them Russian supported, not Russian, as a middle way. Most of the sources cited on the page calling them "Pro-Russian separatists" are from 2014. Putin admitted they were actual Russian soldiers in the field in December of 2015 [24]. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Could you please share some newer sources calling them "Russian separatists"? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:36, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, some earlier sources call them "pro-Russian", but newer sources have unraveled evidence of how the unrest was fomented by the Kremlin and how the separatist forces were supported by the AFRF, FSB and GRU. This "separatism" is entirely a Russian military operation which is why the article is titled Russian separatist forces and not Ukrainian separatism. You could perhaps write another article about the pro-Russia political movement, what's left of it. IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:00, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Comment
I was under the impression that Western media tended (before February 2022) to refer to these people as "Russian-backed separatists". I'm okay with this descriptor, although I oppose "pro-Russian", since that implies that they aren't Russians themselves. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment #2
As I've suggested in some of my comments above, the descriptor "Russian" can refer to two main things. Either, it refers to the links between the separatists and the Russian government (i.e. "the Kremlin", "the Russian Federation", etc.), or it refers to the ethnic (cultural), racial, genetic, linguistic, or national (self-identification) identity of the separatists. Whilst it might be somewhat difficult to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that these separatists are inextricably linked to the Russian government, I believe that it's a lot easier to prove that these people are ethnic-Russians. So, they can still be described as "Russian" either way, regardless of whether they have proven links to the Russian government or not. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? They are linked to the Russian government. There is no debate. This week more Russian officials were openly installed in the “DLNR governments,” for a total of 21 that we know of. Russian forces are using DLNR conscripts to fight to occupy more land in in Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson regions. —Michael Z. 14:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- There's a difference between the pre-2022 situation and the post-2022 situation. Post-2022, I honestly cannot tell the difference between the DPR/LPR and Russia anymore. They have basically been absorbed by Russia during the war. However, before 2022, it might have been argued that the DPR and the LPR had some kind of autonomy away from Russia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:22, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Evidence suggests that not all "citizens" of the DPR and the LPR actually identify as Russians.1 It's pretty unclear as to what "DPR and LPR citizenship" even is. I'm just using that term as a shorthand for people who are ruled by the DPR and LPR governments. A lot of DPR and LPR residents seem to actually be either Ukrainian citizens or Russian citizens. And if there's such a thing as DPR and LPR citizenship, then I think it isn't recognised by the international community, except for maybe by Russia and Russia's proxies elsewhere. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:14, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Which evidence? That Russian separatists are press-ganging Ukrainians to fight for the Russians and that makes them not Russian? Sounds like WP:OR. The first paragraph of your cited source refers to “the Russian side.” —Michael Z. 14:24, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- I said that they don't identify as Russians. One of the details in this article said that some of the DPR residents actually have Ukrainian citizenship. By definition, anyone who has Ukrainian citizenship can be considered to be a citizen of Ukraine (obviously), even if they don't actually live in the core area of Ukraine but instead live in the DPR. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:25, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Correction: It says that they have Ukrainian passports, not citizenship. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:27, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, there is such a thing as a DPR and LPR citizenship and passport. It is recognized by Russia, Syria and North Korea as well as the limited recognized countries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. SkoraPobeda (talk) 07:16, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- It will be helpful to provide some sources/links about this since there's no Wikipedia article on the topic. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:28, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Comment #3 - Catching up with the discussion
First, I would like to add that since my initial comments, I didn't realize it would turn into this large discussion/debate. A main issue with the whole title for me is that it suggests that they are from Russia. Sure, they can identify as Russian and have definite Russian military assistance now. But as far as the DPR 1st Army Corps and LPR 2nd Army Corps goes, these are separatist military formations that went from being militias in 2014-2015 to becoming a regular ground forces based off of the Russian military. (Even though they aren't actually a part of the Russian Ground Forces.) Perhaps you are right Jargo, maybe the title should be renamed something closer to "Russian-backed separatist forces in Donbas", since that would be an accurate assessment of them as well. As I stated back in May, in the Syrian war, the Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army (TFSA) is generalized with that name, despite their official name being the Syrian National Army (SNA). The topic at hand here is two separatist military formations being generalized to something we can all agree on. Yet as @Gitz6666: was saying, RS tends to call these armed groups as pro-Russians. That's just how they've been called since 2014 to this day. Prior to Falloutguy 1914's unilateral move on April 5, 2021 of turning the title from Separatist forces in Donbas to Russian separatist forces in Donbas, there were no problems over what to name the title for years. One word - 'Russian' - was able to change a whole meaning. And the same goes now with the word 'Pro'. This is definitely some next level debate over the use and addition of one single word.
I also would like to bring up a few quotes said by Jargo earlier: "The war is genocidal by nature, and, contrary to Russian claims, the genocide is mainly being conducted by the Russians, not by the Ukrainians." and "Conversely, how many Donbas civilians did Ukraine kill between April 2014 and February 2022? Civilians, not combatants. Not many, I suspect?"
I have been following Ukraine's crisis since November 2013 (and yes, my user profile doesn't hide what my views are). My mom in fact was lucky enough to visit her relatives in the Donetsk region prior to the war - in August 2013. Imagine, she landed in Donetsk Airport a whole year before it was destroyed, who would have thought back then? Life was stable and nobody cared whether you were Russian or Ukrainian, at least in Eastern Ukraine that is. In the Western Ukrainian regions, they never liked Russians or the entire Soviet period despite gaining plenty of new territory through their independence, this is a fact. Now with this war, everything has been portrayed very different by each side. The West and Ukraine share the same narratives, they go hand-in-hand all the time. Many fellow editors who live in America or Canada with Ukrainian roots will see things only from their side (and understandably so, since they probably have relatives who are in the military with their lives at stake). The non-RS perspective by the separatists and Russian media is the one that typically gets ignored the most. However, since my family and a few acquaintances are still there in Donbas, they have had first-hand experience and of course try to keep certain details to a minimum. What is clear is that despite my family being under Ukrainian control all these years, the Ukrainian government did not and still does not care about the people of Donbas. They have not paid them their salaries for half a year prior to Russia's invasion (at least in my mom's town). To make matter worse, outside their town is currently under the control of a neo-Nazi Right Sector paramilitary known as Ukrainian Volunteer Corps. And it is a fact that Ukraine's government uses them, along with Azov, Kraken Regiments and many others to not only fight the war, but to punish civilians. Both in separatist/Russian and Ukrainian controlled territory. Jargo, civilians in Donbas have been shelled non-stop by Ukraine for 8 years now. This has not been reported by the RS media. Donetsk and Gorlovka/Horlivka have been hit the hardest all this time. You can look up the Anna Tuv Story to get a glimpse of it. Over a thousand civilians died by Ukrainian shelling (mostly by neo-Nazi paramilitary groups, not standard Ukrainian Army) from 2015-2022, that is for sure. I'm sure DPR/LPR and Russian sources would put the estimate higher. Ukrainian war crimes are hidden under the blanket excuse that "Russia did it", and so nobody bothers to investigate it because Western sources take Ukrainian spokesmen at face value every time. Ukrainian false flag attacks have occurred many times since Russia's invasion. And Mariupol was a siege because the major neo-Nazi groups were holding the civilians as human shields, when they tried escaping, they were killed by Azov. This is confirmed by independent Telegram videos and by certain Western journalists who interviewed dozens of civilians in Donbas, and they become completely vilified for disagreeing with the official narrative. These men are Graham Phillips and Patrick Lancaster. With time, their brave journalism will be acknowledged. For now, we get contradictory media statements on how for example "Ukraine launched a successful counter-offensive in Kherson" only for it to be a total disaster and the media tries to quietly shift gears. Most people have little to no knowledge of how this conflict was built up in 2013-14, especially with US State Department involvement in regime change. SkoraPobeda (talk) 08:42, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- thanks for your comment. May I ask you to please edit it so as to leave the comment part here and move the survey part ("Support" etc.) above, in the survey section? So we keep the discussion as orderly as possible. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:23, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I can do that. SkoraPobeda (talk) 15:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- I will get back to you on these comments later, but I will point out that some of these allegations you are making against Ukrainians are pretty profound and specific. Especially the usage of the term "Nazi" or "Neo-Nazi". It sounds like something straight out of the Russian propaganda narrative. I will accept that you are a Donbas native (I think?), but it is difficult to tell which information comes directly from you and which comes from the Russian state television. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- From what I understand, you must be one of the relatively "freer thinking" ethnic-Russian/Ukrainian people. A lot of the media in Russia or Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine (including the Donbas) is not free, with the narrative being tightly controlled by the media. I personally live in Australia, and while I don't think Australia's television is necessarily the best in the world, there is definitely free speech in this country. I tend to make up my own mind about things from reading the internet (which, crucially, is not blocked here, unlike how it is in China, for example) and from talking to various people either in real life or on the internet. By the way, I basically never watch the Australian television; I have literally not watched the TV at all since April 2021 (over a year now). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:47, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, well, considering that you live in the United States, that does make sense as to why you would have more freedom of speech. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 01:53, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Please mind WP:NOTFORUM. This conversation is off-topic and should not be held here. Use your User talk pages please. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- SkoraPobeda started the conversation. You should tell him that it is off-topic. Bear in mind that he directly mentioned and quoted me, so I had every right to respond to him in the manner that I did. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:38, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
I will get back to you on these comments later
: please, do it in their user talk page. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)- No problem. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:03, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes Gitz, I apologize for the long comment. All further forum type discussions will be taken to our personal talk pages. SkoraPobeda (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- No problem. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:03, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- SkoraPobeda started the conversation. You should tell him that it is off-topic. Bear in mind that he directly mentioned and quoted me, so I had every right to respond to him in the manner that I did. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:38, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Please mind WP:NOTFORUM. This conversation is off-topic and should not be held here. Use your User talk pages please. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
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Use of the words "neo-nazi" and "extremist"
im going to start a discussion about this here.
so, due to the varyag, rusich and svarozhich units having either been named after neo-Nazi units (varyag) or having Slavic swastikas on their badges (and links to neo-Nazi extremism, such as rusich and svarozhich), i think its appropriate to put them as such, furthermore, the use of extremist also makes sense. the rule, as far as i saw, mainly applies to BLP (biographies of living people), not to battalions or divisions, and considering what is mentioned in the section, using "extremist" should apply on this case, any opinions on that?
ZoopyCat (talk) 22:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Agree. Incidentally, there is an interview with Rusich’s commander Milchakov where he explicitly says “I am Nazi,” on top of all the previous sources that talk about him being Russian fascist or Nazi. —Michael Z. 02:57, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- Heading is fine. Rusich has Neo-nazis so it may need specific label but far-right is fine for other two. Shankargb (talk) 23:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)