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Please stop committing vandalism and censoring information, it is much more relevant than entries like "July 1998: Vladimir Putin was appointed Director of the FSB." "September 1998: Yevgeny Primakov, a KGB veteran, becomes Prime Minister of Russia." "May 12, 1999: Sergei Stepashin, a former FSB Director, becomes Prime Minister of Russia" "August 9, 1999: Vladimir Putin, a former FSB Director, becomes Prime Minister of Russia" "March 26, 2000: Vladimir Putin is elected President.", etc - which has nothing to do with the chronology of the apartment bombings.--[[User:Miyokan|Miyokan]] ([[User talk:Miyokan|talk]]) 02:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC) |
Please stop committing vandalism and censoring information, it is much more relevant than entries like "July 1998: Vladimir Putin was appointed Director of the FSB." "September 1998: Yevgeny Primakov, a KGB veteran, becomes Prime Minister of Russia." "May 12, 1999: Sergei Stepashin, a former FSB Director, becomes Prime Minister of Russia" "August 9, 1999: Vladimir Putin, a former FSB Director, becomes Prime Minister of Russia" "March 26, 2000: Vladimir Putin is elected President.", etc - which has nothing to do with the chronology of the apartment bombings.--[[User:Miyokan|Miyokan]] ([[User talk:Miyokan|talk]]) 02:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC) |
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:So if you think irrelevant information is listed your idea is to add even more irrelevant information? That's quite a unique way of editing wikipedia. Also your allegations that I vandalise pages is unfounded and pretty much bullshit. - [[User:Pietervhuis|PietervHuis]] ([[User talk:Pietervhuis|talk]]) 02:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC) |
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transl. ru:Взрывы жилых домов#Контраргументы относительно альтернативной версии
Pointing to Putin
The conspiracy theory I gathered was that prime minister Vladimir Putin had nothing to show in the coming elections. His policy was showing no good results. After the bombings and the war answer, Putin's new party successfully passed over any of the candidates. Can this theory be attributed to anyone, so that it is put in the article? --Error 01:47, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
From all appearances, this is most likely what happened in short and in all clumsiness and insolence in the making of the Kremlin politics recently given that there is a team rather than one man to be blamed for although he must be involved in everything but as a cover.--BIR 07:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
References
Any references on the official (Amir Khattab and Gochijaev) version? Did they suggest any other suspects later? Why Litvinenko books were not cited? Are they considered a reliable source? Biophys 04:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- How and when all these terrorists were convicted? I was waiting for a month. There are no any references in the official part of the story. Should the unreferenced statements be deleted? Biophys 06:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Russian language version of this article does have some references, perhaps a Russian speaking editor could look at them :-). According to policy things should be verifiable by sources other than Wikipedia. It looks as though the English version mirrors the Russian article and that article and hence this one is thin on references. I would try and get some references rather than delete it as the conviction's are central to the article and it wouldn't make sense without reference to them. Alex Sims 06:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- I could only find the official answer from the general prosecutor's office to a Duma member, in Russian and its computer translation. ilgiz 10:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, probably this is it. However source says that all claims about these people are made by prosection or investigators. It seems that all or most of these people were not convicted in a court. If this is indeed the case (is it?), nobody can say that "The following people either delivered explosives, stored them, or harbored other suspects", as written in this article. Any opinions? Biophys 05:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- There was a 1.5 month trial in the end of 2003.[1] computer translation, [2] computer translation The press was not allowed, so the journalists had to resort to intermediary sources. The verdict was public. [3] computer translation ilgiz 06:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, probably this is it. However source says that all claims about these people are made by prosection or investigators. It seems that all or most of these people were not convicted in a court. If this is indeed the case (is it?), nobody can say that "The following people either delivered explosives, stored them, or harbored other suspects", as written in this article. Any opinions? Biophys 05:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- I could only find the official answer from the general prosecutor's office to a Duma member, in Russian and its computer translation. ilgiz 10:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Russian language version of this article does have some references, perhaps a Russian speaking editor could look at them :-). According to policy things should be verifiable by sources other than Wikipedia. It looks as though the English version mirrors the Russian article and that article and hence this one is thin on references. I would try and get some references rather than delete it as the conviction's are central to the article and it wouldn't make sense without reference to them. Alex Sims 06:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Alexander Litvinenko
Article is missing information about Alexander Litvinenko --Lee Hunter 17:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC) BBC journalist Martin Sixsmith went with the Litvinenko assertion on BBC Radio Four, broadcast on 12th April 2007.Jatrius 15:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Counterarguments to FSB theory
The Russian article has a section on counterarguments to the theory on FSB involvement. I think it needs to be translated - I'd do it myself but it mentions a lot of names that I don't know how to translate. Esn 22:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- Why do you think this should be translated? Could you just briefly summarize here the conterarguments from this Russian text? If there is anything, we can write it down. But I found only one thing. They say that the original chemical test was declared inaccurate due to contamination of the analysis apparatus from a previous test. But this has been already stated in this English article. Biophys 03:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Here is computer translation. The article is being updated these days, and the pro and contra arguments are scattered around all sections. ilgiz 04:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- The best way to organize material is to have all pro arguments in one section and all contra arguments in another section (as it is right now). I agree that the governmental version looks too weak. It is supported by only one reference, whereas the opposite verison is supported by 21 references. If someone could provide more good references about different people mentioned in the governmental version who were convicted or killed - that would be great (I could not find anything!). Also, more can be said about Gochiyaev - who he was and what he claimed. Another interesting question is about 3 FSB persons who conducted the "exercise" in Ryazan. I remember their photos. What are their names? Are they still alive or dead? That would be important to include. Biophys 17:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Sorry, the official version was supported by four references. Still, could be more. Biophys 17:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- (Fixed the computer translation link). I saw the photo-robots of the 3 suspects in a short video clip on Google that seemed to be a part of the "FSB blows up Russia" narrated documentary.ilgiz 09:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Here are the screen shots from the advocacy documentary "Assassination of Russia" by Transparence Production, parts of which were re-published in "Crimes of the Kremlin" by Journeyman Pictures. ilgiz 11:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- So, are they alive or dead? Obviously, they worked for FSB if the claim by Patrushev about the "exercise" was true (and they also worked in FSB if the alternative version is correct). Can we include some of these images in the article? Biophys 15:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- A staged interview with one of the imitation perpetrators was shown later, but the interviewed man was shown from the back. I added the screen shot below. I haven't investigated any news on Gochiyaev or the FSB version's participants. I marked the screen shots with the {{promophoto}} template. I believe a fair use clause might apply to these screen shots, but the drop-down list of licence types in the upload page doesn't have such option. Perhaps, the "fair use" clause wasn't considered precise enough. ilgiz 08:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- So, are they alive or dead? Obviously, they worked for FSB if the claim by Patrushev about the "exercise" was true (and they also worked in FSB if the alternative version is correct). Can we include some of these images in the article? Biophys 15:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- The best way to organize material is to have all pro arguments in one section and all contra arguments in another section (as it is right now). I agree that the governmental version looks too weak. It is supported by only one reference, whereas the opposite verison is supported by 21 references. If someone could provide more good references about different people mentioned in the governmental version who were convicted or killed - that would be great (I could not find anything!). Also, more can be said about Gochiyaev - who he was and what he claimed. Another interesting question is about 3 FSB persons who conducted the "exercise" in Ryazan. I remember their photos. What are their names? Are they still alive or dead? That would be important to include. Biophys 17:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Sorry, the official version was supported by four references. Still, could be more. Biophys 17:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I have made a translation of the Counterarguments section in the Russian article, but I would like to have it approved here before adding it, as this is clearly a sensitive issue:
"Officially, Trepashkin was charged with keeping official documents at home (thus breaching security) and not over accusing FSB of the bombings. His conviction had no connection to the bombings. [citation needed]
A parliamentary enquiry was made to the Prosecutor General of Russia; the response was that the events in Ryazan were indeed a training exercise. According to the Prosecutor General, initial investigations included an attempt of a controlled explosion of 3 kilograms of the substance from the sacks. The substance failed to detonate. The more detailed investigation ordered by the Prosecutor General concluded, on the basis of a pyrotechnical analysis, that:
The sacks contained sucrose — a disaccharide based on glucose and fructose. No traces of explosive substances (trotyl, hexogen, octogen, tannerite?, nytroglycerine, tetryl, and picric acid) were detected. An investigation of the clock, the batteries, the detonator, the lamp, and the wires showed that although this itemd constituted a single electronic device, it was not, however, capable of producing an electric discharge at the signal from the alarm clock and was not an explosive device.
It was also noted that:
...the operation in Ryazan was planned and executed in an inappropriate way. In particular, the matter of the limits of the operation was not looked into. There was no contingency plan of informing the local authorities and the police of the training nature of the operation. in case of its detection.[1]
Critics of the FSB involvement theory suggest that Novaya Gazeta is funded by George Soros via the Open Society (Otkrytoe obshchestvo) fund and the journalists' views are therefore biased."
My opinion is that this should be added, for although it does look somewhat weak, it is nevertheless a sourced opinion, an official opinion I might add. Without it, the article looks too POV. --AVIosad(talk) 22:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- The official charges are described on the "Charges" page of the trepashkin.ru web site. I have noticed that the prosecutor ("обвинение") and the inquiry, or enquiry, ("следствие") took the same side in finding that Trepashkin had disclosed state secrets. Because the conviction mentioned only an internal information disclosure, I believe that the judges have apparently demoted or disqualified the former charge. I could not understand what exactly was considered a state secret.
- По версии обвинения, проходя с 1984 по 1997 год службу в органах безопасности КГБ СССР и ФСБ РФ, Трепашкин копировал служебные документы, которые в дальнейшем незаконно хранил у себя дома.
- Разглашением сведений, составляющих гостайну, следствие считало передачу Трепашкиным своему бывшему коллеге - полковнику ФСБ Виктору Шебалину - материалов старых сводок прослушивания телефонных переговоров членов гольяновской объединенной преступной группировки (в них, по мнению следствия, содержались данные о методах работы ФСБ).
- "According to the prosecutor, Trepashkin had been illegally copying office documentation and storing it at home when employed by KGB and FSB from 1984 to 1997.
- "The inquiry considered a state secret disclosure the fact that Trepashkin had passed wiretaps of the Goliyanov gang to his former colleague, FSB colonel Victor Shebalin. The inquiry believed the wiretaps contained sensitive details about the FSB investigation techniques".
- Details on the sentence are given further on the same page.
- Первый процесс Трепашкина проходил в Московском окружном военном суде с декабря 2003 года по 19 мая 2004 года. Трепашкин был признан виновным в разглашении секретных сведений без признаков гостайны и незаконном хранении боеприпасов. Обвинение в злоупотреблении должностными полномочиями (по ч. 3 ст.285 УК РФ) было прекращено в связи с истечением срока давности. Подсудимый не признал своей вины по всем пунктам и заявил, что дело в отношении него было сфабриковано. Он был приговорен к 4 годам лишения свободы в колонии-поселении.
- "The first Trepashkin's trial took place in the Moscow circuit military court between December 2003 and May 2004. Trepashkin was found guilty of disclosing internal information and illegal storage of arms. Another charge of office power abuse (part 3, article 285 of Criminal Code of Russian Federation) was lifted because of expiry. The convicted did not acknowledge his guilt on any charge and stated that the case was fabricated. He was sentenced to 4 years of imprisonment in a penal colony".
- My translation above may not be correct or accurate.ilgiz 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- According to Novaya Gazeta, Trepashkin was convicted with "illegal acquisition and storage of arms" (article 222, part 1) and "disclosure of information that is a state secret, without the signs of treason" (article 283, part 1).[4] ilgiz 01:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I can translate the Russian section if desired, but there are no strong counterarguments in it. Just insistance by the FSB that the bag contained sucrose, and that Trepashkin was charged for revealing state secrets, again by the FSB. Should one expect that as a counterargument? Doing so would be based on the presumption that the FSB, if guilty of the bombings, would have charged him with their tru grievance, namely that he inteferred with an FSB cover-up operation. This beggars belief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.5.217.3 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Old news reports from RIA Novosti on Trepashkin, re-published by the Moscow circuit military court in the section "Press about us":
- The Moscow circuit military court will announce a verdict in the case of Mikhail Trepashkin, 19 May 2004. Machine translation.
- The court will carry a verdict in the case of Trepashkin on 15 April, 12 April 2005. Machine translation.
It is uncomfortable to know that the court published news articles on its decisions but did not publish all the decisions themselves. I could not find any official verdicts on Trepashkin at movs.ru. ilgiz 19:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Found the official documents (the year 2004 verdict, the year 2005 appeal and the decision on it) at the Radio Liberty's Yekaterinburg edition's web site.[5] Computer translation ilgiz 03:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Snapshots from the Assassination of Russia film
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|The wanted list published after Ryazan incident, 1999.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|The wanted list, photo-robot 1 of 3, 1999.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|The wanted list, photo-robot 2 of 3.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|The wanted list, photo-robot 3 of 3.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|Yuriy Tkachenko, an explosives technician who removed the wires from one of the bags.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|The mechanism removed by Yuriy Tkachenko from one of the bags, according to the documentary.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|Nadezhda Yukhnova, an telephone station operator who intercepted the suspicious conversation with a Moscow number starting with 224, the Lubyanka (FSB) exchange.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|Aleksey Kartofel'nikov, the alert resident who noticed people carrying bags from a car into the basement.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|Interior minister Vladimir Rushailo reports on a diverted apartment bombing attack in Ryazan. 24 September 1999. Putin would give the same explanation some time later.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|FSB director Nikolay Patrushev reports on an emergency readiness exercise in Ryazan. 24 September 1999, 30 minutes after Rushailo's report.]] |
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->|thumb|left|300px|FSB's proof of the Ryazan training exercise. The man shown from the back in an interview was presented as one of the mock perpetrators.]] |
- The images not included into the article will be automatically deleted on 21st.ilgiz 01:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Some references (Russian)
- What Gochiyaev said
- What Berezovsky said
- Gochiyaev - update
- What Krymshakhmalov and Batchaev (Крымшамхалов и Батчаев) said
- What Felshtinsky said
Biophys 00:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Another interesting source: Who is Mr. Putin? (Russian) by Pribylovsky and FelshtinskyBiophys 02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
It says (Russian):"Теракт в Буйнакске 4 сентября был подготовлен и осуществлен Главным разведывательным управлением Генштаба РФ во главе с генерал-полковником Корабельнико-вым. Операцией руководил начальник 14-го управления Главного разведывательного управления генерал-лейтенант Костечко. Осуществлением теракта занималась группа офицеров ГРУ из двенадцати человек, посланная для этого в командировку в Дагестан."Biophys 05:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
1. On 20 May 2004, an article in the Los Angeles Times described the conviction on an unrelated state secret charge of Mikhail Trepashkin, ... I couldn't find the LA Times article, but this Guardian article essentially says enough to cover the first two citation demands of that paragraph.
2. In fact, Seleznyov was referring to an unrelated explosion which indeed happened in Volgodonsk three days earlier - This is a very strong statement, as it presents a statement by one of the interested parties, Genprokuratura, without proper attribution. Besides, the provided source states that the explosive device in question was hand-grenade based... --Illythr 23:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Talk page references
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ilgiz (talk • contribs) 03:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC).
False flag theories for 9/11 and these events
Why are theories, stating that USA authorities are resposible for 9/11 teracts, all marked "conspiracy" and placed in tiny paragraph in the second half of 9/11 article, while in this article, the similar theory is placed in front of article as competent point of view? Dims 01:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- There is little "similarity" between 9/11 attacks and the earlier Russian apartment bombings.
- The suspicion of FSB involvement is mentioned in the beginning probably because the mainstream media and researchers do consider the theory credible. And the murders of the main opponents to the government's explanations, banning the book and ignoring the public commission did not help dispel the suspicion.
- As for 9/11 attacks, one might see a complete article devoted to the 9/11 conspiracy theories (see the link to the main article in the "tiny paragraph").
- The word "conspiracy" by itself is marginalizing some of the theories, including Chomsky's opinions was that the 9/11 attacks were a response, first in its kind, to the civilized world's wars waged against other countries and that the attacks will be used as a justification by other countries such as Russia in their escalation of wars, such as the war in Chechnya.ilgiz 12:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- And maybe also because no FBI agents were arrested by the police during any "vigilance exercises" during or imeediatelly after the events of 9/11 (I mean the Ryazan incident, where the FSB agents were caught planting a bomb their superiors later said declared "fake" against the police statement, and after a manhunt captured by a pure chance by the regular Russian cops with the great help of civilians).
- The 9/11 theories were also widely discredited, from the completely false rumour about the Jews failing to come to the work (implicating "the Jews did the WTC", of course), to the silly pseudo-experiments done by a bunch of complete amatours. I've seen a bit of this "Loose Change" movie (the one with the "B52 in 1945" claim), and I couldn't stand the nerd voice of the seemingly teenage narrator. --HanzoHattori 13:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Chronology of events- Are you kidding me!?
So , I added a NPOV tag to the section here is my reasoning behind it:
Looking through the section I saw that, it lists the dates for the bombings, which is good ,I have no problems with that. But it also lists dates for various developments in Putin's career. Now, is would be the purpose to include those? I think it is obviously to infer motive for the bombings. Basically it is saying shows that the bombings happened after Putin came to power, and also he got some "perks" from the bombings (ie getting reelected and the second war in Chechnya). This is done to imply that Putin is connected to the bombings, and is an obvious POV push. I mean come on, same excuse is used by Sep 11 conspiracy theories. They claim that after 9/11 Bush could invade Iraq, pass Patriot Act,take away civil liberties... SO therefore he must have cause the attacks (or at least knowingly failed to prevent them). This is obviously just a theory, and NOT a fact.
So should we also put in a chronology of events into the [September 11, 2001 attacks] article showing how "convenient" the timing of the attacks was in Bush's political career. Obviously not,maybe they would belong in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article, but not in the main article. Same thing for this article that table should only list dates relevant to the ACTUAL event not a THEORY about the event. Actually half of this article is dedicated to a conpiracy theory instead of describing the actual event, but I will get to that later.
Anyway,my rant is over. I propose to remove all the dates that have nothing to do with the bombings (ie everything about Putin). What do you guys think? PolkovnikKGB (talk) 10:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. There doesn't seem to be anything to tie Putin to this bombing, so I don't see why he should be mentioned in this article. Amaliq (talk) 10:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Elected, not reelected. Also your "PolkovnikKGB" name explains much. --HanzoHattori (talk) 11:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure that sources implicate Putin personally in organization of the bombings (this needs to be checked). But the sources implicate FSB and Patrushev in that. So, the timeline describing the alleged coming of FSB people to power is relevant.Biophys (talk) 16:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry , I didn't mean to say that it was him personally, but regardless, the time line should be about the relevant to the actual events, and not an alternate/conspiracy theory.
- I don't have the time to check the sources now, I will maybe tomorrow. But I think, if the source DOES use the chronology of events in his FSB theory, then I can see an argument for keeping it. But it should not be a separate section, instead it should be in the FSB theory section (because that is the only thing that it's relevant to). Also it should be noted that the source uses the dates in his theory, that is why they are there. Now,if he does NOT use the dates then they definitely should be removed. Because you are making an inference. Basically it's like this: I see that this guy has a theory that FSB did the bombings, and I agree with him. So I am going to put together this table of dates to better prove his point, even though he ( the source) does NOT rely on dates himself.PolkovnikKGB (talk) 22:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Good sources
Good video sources about these bombings (Russian):
- Part1
- Part2
- Part3
- Part 4. Biophys (talk) 05:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- A kind of summary. Biophys (talk) 05:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it a conspiracy theory?
There are repated attempts to describe this as a "conspiracy theory". Conspiracy theory or not should be decided by sources. FSB involvement in the bombing is a majority view - based on sources. The involvement of FSB has been described in several books published by David Satter, Alexander Litvinenko, Yuri Felshtinsky, Alex Goldfarb, Vladimir Pribylovsky and numerous TV interviews and articles (many references are already included in this article; I can bring more). Hence there are multiple reliable primary and secondary sources claiming the involvemnt of FSB to be true. But I would like to see an equally impressive list of reliable English language sources (so a reader can check) that claim the opposite. There are no such in my knowledge. I found only a couple of Russian sources where the governmental position has been described in sufficient detail.Biophys (talk) 20:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- No country government has accused Russia of orchestrating the apartment bombings. There are also many books and TV interviews and articles asserting that the moon landings were fake and September 11 was orchestrated by the US government.--Miyokan (talk) 02:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- You said: "No country government has accused Russia of orchestrating the apartment bombings". Of course they did not, because they never do! Why should they bother about citizens of other countries? They have been elected by citizens of their own countries to protect interests of their own citizens. UK would extradite Berezovsky and Zakayev in 5 minutes, unless UK court decided otherwise. You know that UK and US governments extradited almost a million of Russians to Stalin after WWII and most of them were sent to Gulag.Biophys (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Everything must be supported by sources. Please provide your sources claiming this to be a conspiracy theory.Biophys (talk) 03:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
A bunch of non-notable journalists claim this to be a "conspiracy theory" simply because this seems improbable for them.
This qualifies the case as a "controversy", not as a "conspiracy theory". So, let's not define this a "conspiracy theory" in Introduction, but include this as a separate section. We do not make any judgements in introductions on controversial subjects. We only should explain in Introduction what the controversy is.Biophys (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- There's really no point about adding how observers describe it as a "conspiracy theory". So what? - PietervHuis (talk) 02:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, let's summarize "Pro" and "Contra" views".
Pro
Several notable proffessionals claiming the involvenet of FSB to be the case: 1 - FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko, 2 - Johns Hopkins University and Hoover Institute scholar David Satter, 3 - member of Russian Duma Sergei Yushenkov, 4 notable historian Felshtinsky, 5 - political scientist Pribylovsky. 6 In addition, we have U.S. Senator and presidential candidate John McCain telling that " There remain credible allegations that Russia's FSB had a hand in carrying out these attacks" [6]. Some of these people have written books on the sibject and they are notable experts.
Contra
A bunch of non-notable journalists claim this to be a "conspiracy theory" simply because this seems improbable for them.
This qualifies the case as a "controversy", not as a "conspiracy theory". So, let's not define this a "conspiracy theory" in Introduction, but include this as a separate section. We do not make any judgements in introductions on controversial subjects. We only should explain in Introduction what the controversy is.Biophys (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact
Whether or not it is a conspiracy is not the issue, however the DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact, supported by many sources, much much more credible than Alexander Litvinenko and co., including
- The Washinton Times,
- The New York Times,
- The Times,
- Princeton University, etc.
have referred to it as a "conspiracy theory".--Miyokan (talk) 01:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I d like to add to "Contra" the fact, that all of these notable Russian experts even written a book were sponsored by Berezowski so they are anything but independent.
- Sources providing this information were already given in the SecChWar article Caesar Augustvs (talk) 09:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I believe the expression "conspiracy theory" has two meanings, and it might be better to stick to more precise (and fortunately or not, less striking) terms. The straightforward meaning is a theory that describes a plot. The ironic meaning is a fringe theory, the one that is built on shallow allegations.
- In my understanding, had the government been honestly interested in resolving the controversy, any new evidence would be either refuted by a solid evidence or accepted as a solid evidence, even when the latter points fingers at a federal agency.
- Below is my quick review of the references attached to the claim that the theory of FSB involvement was widely described as a "conspiracy theory".
- The article in The Times is not an editorial. It is a professional writer's opinion (a) that average Britons would not believe the allegations of corruption and inhumanity in FSB much exceeding that of KGB and (b) that Litvinenko and other immigrants should assimilate and forget the "horrifying" past of their home countries. The articles from The Washington Post and The New York Times did not refute the allegations either. The New Statesman article gave its highest suspicion rate (70%) to the allegations of FSB involvement.
- The excerpt from the book by MacKinnon[7] uses the term in a straightforward way. No refutation is asserted by the author.
- The article by the Agence France-Presse journalist Olga Nedbayeva does not offer counter-arguments other than quoting an FSB spokesman who said that Litvinenko's evidence "cannot be taken seriously".
- The article by Ira Straus starts with a premise that Muslims and the West conspired against Serbia. The author attributes to "Russians and Serbs" a belief that Bosnian Muslims staged massacres by killing their own people. (The article does not point to any evidence of that). Then the author supposes that "some Russians" decided to use the same trick by bombing apartment buildings to draw world's sympathy in their conflict with Chechen rebels. The author's point remains unclear to me. Its headline does not seem to correspond to its ending. Any comments would be welcome.
- The summary of a conference at Princeton 3-4 March 2000 does not refute the "conspiracy theory". It said there was no evidence (at the time) supporting either the official or the opposing theory.
- I read an excerpt from Inside Putin's Russia by Andrew Jack (pp.103-141) in Google Book Search and found his analysis well-researched. The author considers the strong and weak points of the conspiracy theory of FSB involvement and the official theory of Chechen rebel involvement. He points out that "confirming any fact in Russia is difficult", but mentions the opinion of an expert on Dagestan Robert Bruce Ware. Jack points that Ware's opinion on Wahhabis as the most likely culprits coincides with the results of the official investigation which focused on young radicals from Karachaevo-Cherkessia recruited by Achemez Gochiyaev. Jack writes that the findings were embarrassing for the Kremlin as they did not provide justification for a second war.
- Labeling the anti-government theory as a "conspiracy theory" in the main article seems to assume the ironic meaning of the term while the references supplied to support the statement operate the term in its straightforward meaning. Therefore, the shallow generalization of the provided secondary sources seems unjustified to me.ilgiz (talk) 10:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- What are you disputing? The article is not asserting as fact that it is a conspiracy theory, however the DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact, which every single one of those sources does:
- Mackinnon's book: But if the conspiracy theory–that all the bombings were the work of government agents–was right, Russia was backsliding quickly toward autocracy.
- The Times: His biggest revelation centred on the conspiracy theory that the FSB was involved in a string of bombing attacks that levelled apartment buildings across Russia in the autumn of 1999.
- New Statesman: Conspiracy theories: a guide
- Terror99: Conspiracy theories on Russia's 1999 bombings gain ground
- Russia Journal: Conspiracy theories run into cold facts Let us examine the alleged conspiracies and conspiracy theories.
- Princeton University: yet neither is there any evidence to support the "conspiracy theory" that ties responsibility to the Russian FSB
- The Washington Times: most dismiss the involvement of the Russian government in the apartment bombings as an unsupported conspiracy theory though it has received widespread attention--Miyokan (talk) 10:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- What are you disputing? The article is not asserting as fact that it is a conspiracy theory, however the DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact, which every single one of those sources does:
_______________________________________________________________________
Why even bother writing about how "observers describe it as a conspiracy theory". That's the same as describing the theory of relativity as a "science theory", or the theory of God's existance as a "unfounded theory". There's absolutely no reason to write about this in the article. Let people who read this article draw their own conclusions. - PietervHuis (talk) 11:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Censorship? Why don't we just remove the accusations by Litvinenko and co. then and leave the evidence? Being repeatedly called a "conspiracy theory" establishes that this is often considered a WP:FRINGE theory, and that the claims by Litvinenko and co. are not widely held. The Washington Times summarises it best - "most dismiss the theory as an unsupported conspiracy theory though it has received widespread attention".--Miyokan (talk) 12:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
First of all there's absolutely no evidence released to the public so stop saying there is. Also the fact that a journalist of the new york times describes it as a conspiracy theory doesn't make it universal. Anyway what does it matter. If it was the work of Russia it was indeed a conspiracy.
This article needs cleanup, the introduction should be shorter and allegations / investigations should be seperated. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that evidence was released, I was referring to the "evidence" that the "conspiracy theorists" rely on. If you want to remove "observers describe it as a conspiracy theory" then you would have to remove Former KGB/FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko, Johns Hopkins University and Hoover Institute scholar David Satter,[3], Russian lawmaker Sergei Yushenkov, historian Felshtinsky, and political scientist Pribylovsky asserted that the bombings were in fact a "false flag" attack perpetrated by the FSB (successor to the KGB) in order to legitimize the resumption of military activities in Chechnya and brin - because that is their opinion, you would just have to leave the evidence that they base it on.--Miyokan (talk) 12:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I would really like to know, why almost everybody here ignores the involvement of Berezowski? It is a fact he sponsored the investigation, so it is obvious, that the investigation was neither independent, nor impartial. The goal was not to uncover the truth, but to accuse the government. The other fact, that 4.ex many western newspapers prefer to ignore Berezowski' background and his invocations for even a revolution in Russia he is ready to pay for, and to present him as a dissident does not make their statements more credibleCaesar Augustvs (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes Caesar, I encourage you to add this information to balance the article.--Miyokan (talk) 12:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm actually not sure if my english is good enough for such mission :) As there is much to change in the "theory of the FSB involvement" than...really much.Caesar Augustvs (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- O'K, I have included one phrase about this this in Introduction - as a compromise. But this should be described in a separate section (I made one and included some materials there).Biophys (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Criticism of FSB involvement theory
Now this is not about "conspiracy theory". This is about proper placing of material. Russian version of this artivle included "Criticism of FSB involvement theory" section (see discussion in the beginning of this talk page), and rightly so. So, all materials of that kind should be placed there. We can not describe all "pro" and "contra" in the introduction.Biophys (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I checked two of several sources provided by Myokan. One of them does not tell anything about these bombings but only discuss Litvinenko case and descibe his murder as a "conspiracy". Another tells that the "theory" may be true. I provided some direct citation to exclude any claims that I misinterpret something.Biophys (talk) 17:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please describe correctly what the sources tell. That is why we need a separate section.Biophys (talk) 17:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.izvestia.ru/investigation/article3102993/ here you have about Felshtinsky, Goldfarb and Litvinenko, http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/news/newsid_2957000/2957473.stm this one is about Juschenkow- as you see, he was killed just a short time after they decided to count out mr. Berezowsky (curious fact, isn’t it?)
Here a link about Kovalev http://niiss.ru/d_kovalev.shtml his behaviour during the conflict same as the decoration as "Knight of Honour" from Dudaev directly makes him not really credible regarding questions about Chechnya.
Further Trepashkin was as we all know the other former FSB agent taking part in this notable press conference with Beresowski and Litivnenko.
Caesar Augustvs (talk) 19:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- O'K, all links that you provided are probably valid sources. That is how Russian state-controlled media describe "enemies of the people". However, there is nothing there about these apartment bombings. Caesar, do you really believe that Russian apartment bombings were not committed by FSB and GRU spetsnaz? That was highly proffesional job and clearly something extremely damaging for the Chechen cause (small Chechnya can not win a war with Russia - everyone understands that). The more you and Miyokan are trying to prove this to be a conspiracy theory, the more it is clear that the involvement of FSB was real. There is a lot of things to be described here - the Gochyaev ordeal (it is shame - we do not have an article about him), the closed trails of Chechen suspects who were not involved in the bombings whatsoever; the murder of Romanovich at Ciprus, the words of Trepashkin when he came back from prison, etc. So, if you want this to be described, let's go ahead.Biophys (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Biophys admission that he strongly believes bombings were work of Russian government
You have just admitted that you strongly believe that the bombings were orchestrated by Russia, declaring your bias for all to see, so please cease your deletions/manipulations/hiding away of the counterargument as you are violating WP:NPOV.
- Please do not misinterpret my words. I only asked Caesar Augustvs what he really thinks about it and suggested that WP articles on this subject should be improved. Please also stop reverting a lot of other people work without any justification or discussion. It seems there is a lot of things to be done here, just as I said.Biophys (talk) 03:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can try to deny it all you like but the proof is there for all to see - Caesar, do you really believe that Russian apartment bombings were not committed by FSB and GRU spetsnaz? That was highly proffesional job and clearly something extremely damaging for the Chechen cause (small Chechnya can not win a war with Russia - everyone understands that). The more you and Miyokan are trying to prove this to be a conspiracy theory, the more it is clear that the involvement of FSB was real.--Miyokan (talk) 04:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Well if you ask me: this job was not more professional than the 9/11 there is nothing about professionalism in there...give me some bags with explosives, and you will see I can blow any apartment you like in Germany (figurative meaning of course). The damage of the Chechen cause is not worse, than the hostage taking of Beslan or the Nord-Ost - not even really worse than the same in Budenovsk. As you remember, many Chechen leaders (especially Bassajew) often proclaimed "to take the war to the Russian home country". So, why all these qualms about their possible involvement?
Yes indeed, in my sources you do not see concrete details about the bombing itself as I was asked to show sources about the connections between the "independent investigation of notable experts" and Beresowski. If you ask me, there is a much easier explanation for the closed trials and so on. For the FSB it was very hard to explain, why they were not able to prevent these events, as you cannot simply say "hey guys we can't post guards to every cellar of every building in the country", same as it was hard to explain, why nobody was able to prevent the terrorists to get all these explosives (as it is equal to the confession -"actually we do not have any control about the market of these things") Now about Trepashkin and co. of course they say such things, as they have to earn money for living and Berezowski is not social welfareCaesar Augustvs (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Biophys can believe all he wants to believe. Miyokan are you trying to say that you're not working from a pov? You are the least pov persion I see working here, and your previous claims that you are a "payed member of a kgb troll squad" backs that up.
- His idea that Russians blew up those buildings is as believable as your idea that Chechens blew up those buildings.
- You're trying to to convert this article (and many other articles) into a pro-putin article, there's no need to keep callings critics "conspiracy theorists" all the time. I'll work on it later and devide the article with critics and counter-criticism seperated. The introduction for example is way too long - PietervHuis (talk) 10:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I am trying to make a balanced article, presenting both sides and unlike Biophys, I am neither convinced that the Chechens are to blame nor the Russian government. In case you haven't noticed, Biophys is the one removing and manipulating counterarguments, and removing counterarguments from the lead, while I haven't touched the information that asserts Russian gov. involvement. You are the least pov persion I see working here, and your previous claims that you are a "payed member of a kgb troll squad" backs that up. LOL. Yes Pietervhuis, that tongue-in-cheek infobox that I inserted proves that I am a "paid member of a kgb troll squad" *sarcasm*. Biophys has been the one deleting counterarguments, trying to remove the well sourced statement that it has been "described as a conspiracy theory" violating WP:NPOV, I am not the one deleting information.--Miyokan (talk) 11:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Does the fact that people call it a conspiracy theory change anything about the reliability of such statements? It's a Theory indeed. A theory about what? A conspiracy. Of course it's factually a conspiracy theory. So what? If I'm correct you also removed arguments with the title "if you want to place them back feel fro to do it". I'm not trying to say that you're not welcome to participate in wikipedia articles, but you are in no position to discredit Biophys. And no I don't believe you are "payed", but the fact that you subscribed to such a stroll squad and that you don't seem to be AT ALL critical of anything concerning Russia tells me that you are nowhere less biased than Biophys. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Miyokan, the fact that Biophys is biased is neither here nor there, it's his edits that count. We all have opinions on Wikipedia and I'm sure you are no different. If you have a problem with his edits, find a good rationale for your complaint, not something as petty as what you have brought up here. Malick78 (talk) 12:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- I have explained the rationale numerous times in my edit summaries - "sentence remains unsupported after I have continually readded that fact tag to it and being deleted by Biophys" "however" is on wikipedia's list of words to avoid - Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#However.2C_although.2C_whereas.2C_despite, "fact tags should never be removed"; "the sources refer to Russian involvement in apartment bombings as a "conspiracy theory", not Litvinenko's, etc assertions"; "unjustified deletion of Washington Times quote";"the apartment bombings were not the only reason for the invasion of Chechnya, it was this plus the Chechen invasion of Dagestan"; "why did you remove the fact that Death of a Dissident was published by Litvinenko's wife" - but Biophys has ignored these comments and persisted in his deletion/manipulation/removal-from-the-lead of the counterarguments. What is one supposed to think about such actions when Biophys admits he believes that the Russian government orchestrated the bombings?--Miyokan (talk) 13:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Miyokan the washington post article you found states that "While most dismiss the story as an unsupported conspiracy theory, it has received widespread attention". "Most of what? Russian politicians? Russian journalists? Journalists worldwide? It does not provide any original research on what "most" think. When you're using it in this article it creates an atmosphere as if the criticsims are only made by a minority of people and we don't know that.
- There's also no reason to add about the invasion of Dagestan or put emphasis on it. It's already handled on the Second Chechen War page. - PietervHuis (talk) 14:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
What confusion? Since they did not say a specific group (ie they did not say "most Russian journalists" or "most journalists worldwide", etc) it is quite clear that "most" refers to the majority of people worldwide who comment on the issue. There is no "emphasis" put on the invasion of Dagestan, it is a fact that the Chechen invasion of Dagestan was one of the factors leading to the invasion of Chechnya, the apartment bombings weren't the sole reason for the invasion of Chechnya. It is simply wrong to state that the apartment bombings were the sole reason for the invasion of Chechnya.--Miyokan (talk) 15:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- How the hell did a journalist from the washington times draw a conclusion that "most" dismiss the story? He didn't provide any original research along with it, therefore we cant present it as a fact on an encyclopedia.
- Also it's fine to mention the invasion as an issue, but not as detailed as now. Just a link to the Invasion of Dagestan page is fine. - PietervHuis (talk) 16:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. I made a compromise version where all sourced content by Myokan, except this Dagestan war, has been included. However it is properly arranged by sections.Biophys (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Unsourced paragraph
The "official investigation" paragraph includes the following:
The explosives were prepared at a fertilizer factory in Urus-Martan, Chechnya, by mixing hexogen, TNT, aluminium powder and nitre with sugar. From there they were sent to a food storage facility in Kislovodsk, which was managed by an uncle of one of the terrorists, Yusuf Krymshakhalov. Another conspirator, Ruslan Magayayev, had leased a KamAZ truck in which the sacks were stored for two months. After everything was planned, the participants were organized into several groups which then transported the explosives to different cities. Most of the people participating were not ethnic Chechens.
Where it came from? Text in official statement by a prosecutor includes only the following (Russian):
В ходе допросов Искендеров показал, что 13 сентября 1999 года на стоянке грузового автотранспорта Волгодонска он познакомился с тремя лицами, выходцами из народностей Северного Кавказа, прибывшими в город на автомобиле "КАМАЗ", якобы для продажи картофеля. Они купили у него автомобиль, объяснив, что он необходим для доставки на рынки города более 10 тонн картофеля. В этот же день они передали Искендерову в качестве оплаты 300 долларов США и 2200 рублей. Оформление сделки купли-продажи должно было состояться 16 сентября.
Как установлено следствием, в этот же день, на территории автоколонны #2070 г.Волгодонска в будку автомашины было перегружено взрывчатое вешест-во и установлено взрывное устройство, все это было сверху замаскировано россыпью картофеля.
15 сентября 1999 года Искендеров по просьбе покупателей отогнал автомобиль на обычное место к своему дому, чтобы утром следующего дня отвести картофель на рынок,
This is about bombing in Volgodonsk and tells completely different things. I checked another source (the book by Goldfarb) and it also tells something different. I will correct this ASAP.Biophys (talk) 18:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC) O'K, I found it: [8] Biophys (talk) 18:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Btw. another curious fact, in the web you seem only be able to find two versions of how this happened: the one of the FSB, and the other sponsored by Berezowski...Mostly other sources only refer to one of these, so I really do not see any reason why the version of Berezowski should be more credible.Caesar Augustvs (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
structure of the new paragraphs
I think not very good sectioning in there...
First- in the main part- the theory of the FSB involvement you should exclude any support or critics of the theory itself, otherwise you only repeat the same information in other words in the part "support". Further, I’ve read the text of the McCain speech... Actually I do not see any reason to give him a more important role as a source than a usual newspaper. In the context it rather seems he only refer to some information he got from the same "notable Russian experts"- probably the same as we have. (Cause in his speech he never says something about facts, but mentions things like "State Duma deputy Yuri Shendoshokhtin, who had been looking into the role of the FSB in the Moscow bombings as well as a scandal surrounding the involvement of FSB officers in illegal trade, was also killed in mysterious circumstances" just few lines before his statement about "credible allegations". Btw. as he put the UDSSR in the same box with Tzaristic Russia- calling them both "continuation of 400 years of autocratic state control, and repression" I actually tend to think he is a russophobe (do not know if this word is the same in english) and for this reason not very credible in questions about Russia at allCaesar Augustvs (talk) 21:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that "theory of FSB involvement" and "support" should not have any content overlap. I thought they did not. The opinion of John McCain is notable because he is a US presidential candidate and a well known politician.Biophys (talk) 04:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
You prefer to ignore the doubtful statement of McCain about "400 years of terror" in Russia? Don't you think such radical position makes his credibility doubtful as well? Would you believe a German chancellor, saying "the USA is an example of continuation of 400 years of separatism"Caesar Augustvs (talk) 09:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Do you mean to say this is a lie ;) ? - PietervHuis (talk) 17:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- I added this plus his statement that Russia should be kicked out of the G8.--Miyokan (talk) 09:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Cleanup?
May I try to mediate the recent edit war by putting some arguments into respective sections? This will take me an hour or so. Feel free to revert my changes.ilgiz (talk) 07:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Miyokan please stop adding information about chechen terrorist attacks. It has nothing to do with this article and only tries to put emphasis on "chechens are terrorists, therefore they must have done it!". It would be same as for me to list all the atrocities and near-genocide commited by Russia. - PietervHuis (talk) 01:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Please stop committing vandalism and censoring information, it is much more relevant than entries like "July 1998: Vladimir Putin was appointed Director of the FSB." "September 1998: Yevgeny Primakov, a KGB veteran, becomes Prime Minister of Russia." "May 12, 1999: Sergei Stepashin, a former FSB Director, becomes Prime Minister of Russia" "August 9, 1999: Vladimir Putin, a former FSB Director, becomes Prime Minister of Russia" "March 26, 2000: Vladimir Putin is elected President.", etc - which has nothing to do with the chronology of the apartment bombings.--Miyokan (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- So if you think irrelevant information is listed your idea is to add even more irrelevant information? That's quite a unique way of editing wikipedia. Also your allegations that I vandalise pages is unfounded and pretty much bullshit. - PietervHuis (talk) 02:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)