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::The problem here, Josh, is that you seem intent on POV-pushing. A lot of your insertions, such as the one I have recently removed and the remarkably similar edit you just inserted to avoid "edit-warring" read like polemical attacks, rather than objective attempts to describe Sheldrake and his ideas. Calling his ideas pseudoscience and saying there is a lack of evidence is quite sufficient. However, you are clearly trying to beat readers over the head with your personal take on the man and what he espouses.--[[User:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="vermillion">'''The Devil's Advocate'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="burntorange">tlk.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/The Devil's Advocate|<font color="red">cntrb.</font>]]</sub> 22:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC) |
::The problem here, Josh, is that you seem intent on POV-pushing. A lot of your insertions, such as the one I have recently removed and the remarkably similar edit you just inserted to avoid "edit-warring" read like polemical attacks, rather than objective attempts to describe Sheldrake and his ideas. Calling his ideas pseudoscience and saying there is a lack of evidence is quite sufficient. However, you are clearly trying to beat readers over the head with your personal take on the man and what he espouses.--[[User:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="vermillion">'''The Devil's Advocate'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:The Devil's Advocate|<font color="burntorange">tlk.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/The Devil's Advocate|<font color="red">cntrb.</font>]]</sub> 22:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC) |
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:::The problem here is that you lack [[WP:COMPETENCE]] and in short order will be on the wrong end of a [[WP:AE]] ban. Just saying. [[User:QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV|jps]] ([[User talk:QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV|talk]]) 03:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC) |
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Scientific community is not homogenous
In the third paragraph of the lead, "Morphic resonance is not accepted by the scientific community as a real phenomenon..." is an unsupportable generalization. It is like saying the religious community or the political community. I think the term "scientific community" is used here as a means of condemning rather than explaining that there are opposing views ... as there are for virtually all theories. I really thought we settled this months ago. Tom Butler (talk) 17:36, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- That statement is supported by the following references:
- Gardner, M. (1988). The New Age: notes of a fringe-watcher. Prometheus books. ISBN 9781615925773. "Almost all scientists who have looked into Sheldrake's theory consider it balderdash."
- Sharma, Ruchir (2012). Breakout Nations: In Pursuit of the Next Economic Miracles. WW Norton & Company. ISBN 9780393083835. "Despite Sheldrake's legitimate scientific credentials, his peers have roundly dismissed his theory as pseudoscience."
- Samuel, L. R. (2011). Supernatural America: A Cultural History: A Cultural History. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 9780313398995. "...most biologists considered Sheldrake's theory of morphic resonance hogwash..."
- Wolpert, Lewis (11 January 1984). "A matter of fact or fancy?: SECOND OPINION". The Guardian. p. 11.
- Maddox, John (24 September 1981). "A book for burning?". Nature 293 (5830): 245–246. Bibcode:1981Natur.293R.245.. doi:10.1038/293245b0. "...Sheldrake's argument is in no sense a scientific argument but is an exercise in pseudo-science."
- Rose, S. (March 1992). "So-called "Formative Causation". A Hypothesis Disconfirmed. Response to Rupert Sheldrake" (PDF). Riv. Biol./Biol. Forum 85: 445–453. "Along with parapsychology, corn circles, creationism, ley-lines and "deep ecology", "formative causation", or "morphic resonance" has many of the characteristics of such pseudosciences..."
- de Pracontal, M. (1986). L'imposture scientifique en dix leçons. Editions La Découverte.
- Jones, David (4 July 1988). "Books: Captain Morphic – Review of 'THE PRESENCE OF THE PAST' By Rupert Sheldrake". The Times.
- I agree that I thought this was settled - morphic resonance is pseudoscience and WP:DUCK applies to the statement that it is not accepted by general scientific consensus. Simonm223 (talk) 17:41, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- Nice job of cutting and pasting. You are avoiding the point that the "scientific community" has not collectively condemned the theory. Saying it has here is a clear effort to bias the article. Some of your shotgun-like references are more specific than this article. Even Gardner qualifies his generalization with "Almost all scientists..." he specifically avoided "the scientific community." Tom Butler (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- Two things. One - please observe WP:NPA - I put up the relevant sources to the statement you claimed to be unsubstantiated in talk to highlight them. You don't need to respond with "Nice job of cutting and pasting," that's going from 0 to hostile pretty much immediately. Two - it's pretty darn evident that the general scientific consensus is that this is pseudoscience. Wikipedia is supposed to use clear and unambiguous language. We don't need to violate WP:DUE by pointing out that somewhere somehow there might maybe be one person in the scientific community who disagrees with consensus. Simonm223 (talk) 18:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- There is nothing civil about this article. Sorry, it is a learned response to assume poor faith around here. The same sort of bias is going on in the Dean Radin (and probably others) article, so please do not think your position is innocent.
- As you well know with your Wiki-references, Wikipedia does not allow "the rest of the story" about these people because the community of scientists who study the related phenomena publish in peer-reviewed journals which are not allowed because they are "fringe." That means virtually all of the material used for reference here is from the mainstream, which any historian will tell you is always on its way out of date. In fact, the "scientific community" is not homogeneous and does not as a body reject any theory.Tom Butler (talk) 18:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Our current reliable sources demonstrate reasonably well that there is a consensus within the greater scientific community that Morphic Resonance isn't a thing that exists. If you can demonstrate peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary from non WP:FRINGE sources please do so. And the burden falls upon all editors to assume good faith. Journals like Journal of Parapsychology are considered fringe because the data they contain regularly and consistently falls down with badly executed statistical analysis and experimental design which violates standard principles of blinded experimentation. When we talk about general scientific consensus this is what we mean. It doesn't matter if every person who calls themselves a scientist, or even every person with a PhD from an accredited institution agrees. But can we find sources that have tested this using proper rigor and found... anything? Because right now the answer to that is no. Simonm223 (talk) 18:43, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your assessment of the Journal of Parapsychology as "badly executed statistical analysis and experimental design" shows a clear bias that is most likely based on your own personal ideology and belief system than actual science. In many cases, the journal has provided far more rigor in its statistical analysis than what you will ordinarily find in peer reviewed journals. 159.118.158.122 (talk) 14:46, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- I've looked very hard and failed to find supportive statements from the scientific community. All the mainstream sources that I can find are negative. If you can provide sources, then we can have another look at it. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- There have been many credible scientific sources. The research is easy to find if you are willing to keep an open minded scientific attitude. The problem is an a priori bias that is hard to shake from many who claim they have looked at the evidential material closely - but really haven't. 159.118.158.122 (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Please provide us with specific references to where morphic resonance has either (1) been subjected to tests published in mainstream journals which have implied the existence of MR (2) examples where experienced research scientists have praised MR and/or Rupert Sheldrake for his work on MR. While keeping my mind as open as possible, and looking as hard as I can, I can basically find bugger all. I might have missed something though. Assertions that I have missed something sound like wishful thinking unless you back them up with citations. Citations, please. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:43, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry Barney, I have no time for pseudo-skepticism. If you guys were for real, maybe I would take the time. But you're not. 159.118.158.122 (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Stop wasting our time then. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 17:05, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry Barney, I have no time for pseudo-skepticism. If you guys were for real, maybe I would take the time. But you're not. 159.118.158.122 (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Please provide us with specific references to where morphic resonance has either (1) been subjected to tests published in mainstream journals which have implied the existence of MR (2) examples where experienced research scientists have praised MR and/or Rupert Sheldrake for his work on MR. While keeping my mind as open as possible, and looking as hard as I can, I can basically find bugger all. I might have missed something though. Assertions that I have missed something sound like wishful thinking unless you back them up with citations. Citations, please. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:43, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Speed of light
In Rupert_Sheldrake#Debating_and_lecturing there is a paragraph about the speed of light and other constants changing, which lacks mainstream context per WP:PSCI. The only direct responses I've seen are from Sean Carroll via blogs,[1][2] e.g.,
There are many respectable scientists (including me, or at least “as well as me”) who study the possibility that physical parameters vary with time, both theoretically and experimentally. For the most part they understand the concept of error bars, as well as how different parameters are related to each other, neither of which Sheldrake has any clue about. Life is too short.
Wikipedia has Is the fine-structure constant actually constant?, but it's not clear that Sheldrake even understands that he's talking about the fine structure constant. It's unfortunate that he received laughs when he told the audience in his TEDx talk that the speed of light was eventually fixed, as if this was some indication of "dogma".
The paragraph in question is misleading without a mainstream view, and I think it should be deleted until one is provided. vzaak 19:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
1RR
The one revert rule I imposed on the article with discretionary sanctions is due to expire in the next two days. I don't think it's necessary anymore so am happy to let it expire. However I thought I'd check with the regular editors of the article... are you all happy for it to expire or would you like it to be reimposed and if so for how long? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:43, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think 1RR would be preferable to keep as there is currently a revert war being prepetuated by User:The Devil's Advocate going on right now. I think keeping it in place for another 6 months is not a bad idea. If we do keep the restriction, shouldn't it be documented at WP:ARBPSCI? jps (talk) 18:49, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- The problem here, Josh, is that you seem intent on POV-pushing. A lot of your insertions, such as the one I have recently removed and the remarkably similar edit you just inserted to avoid "edit-warring" read like polemical attacks, rather than objective attempts to describe Sheldrake and his ideas. Calling his ideas pseudoscience and saying there is a lack of evidence is quite sufficient. However, you are clearly trying to beat readers over the head with your personal take on the man and what he espouses.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 22:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- The problem here is that you lack WP:COMPETENCE and in short order will be on the wrong end of a WP:AE ban. Just saying. jps (talk) 03:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)