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@jps. The sources do not appear to suggest that he is checking their "factualness", a word that is not even mentioned in them. He does ask whether "The conservation of matter and energy seem like a mathematical truth"[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_jWLjJQvfSsC&lpg=PP1&dq=sheldrake%20conservation%20energy&pg=PT89#v=onepage&q=conservation%20of%20matter&f=false] which is not the same thing. The second references has nothing to do with Sheldrake. We can better refer to one of the several book reviews available. For example, "His intention is not to dismiss all conventional scientific ideas or cast doubt on every study but instead he insists on their limitations"[http://thelondonmagazine.org/issues/jun-jul-12/all-in-the-mind/], ie. he is questioning their ''limitations''. --[[User:Iantresman|Iantresman]] ([[User talk:Iantresman|talk]]) 15:08, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
@jps. The sources do not appear to suggest that he is checking their "factualness", a word that is not even mentioned in them. He does ask whether "The conservation of matter and energy seem like a mathematical truth"[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_jWLjJQvfSsC&lpg=PP1&dq=sheldrake%20conservation%20energy&pg=PT89#v=onepage&q=conservation%20of%20matter&f=false] which is not the same thing. The second references has nothing to do with Sheldrake. We can better refer to one of the several book reviews available. For example, "His intention is not to dismiss all conventional scientific ideas or cast doubt on every study but instead he insists on their limitations"[http://thelondonmagazine.org/issues/jun-jul-12/all-in-the-mind/], ie. he is questioning their ''limitations''. --[[User:Iantresman|Iantresman]] ([[User talk:Iantresman|talk]]) 15:08, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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::Ian, your tiresome insistence on precise wording is indicative of a kind of myopia that has no place here. Searching for the word "fact" in the sources and complaining when you get no matches is just about the most brain-dead way to make an editorial argument, and you've been falling back on this research-by-search-engine approach entirely too often over your entire Wikipedia career. In any case, your final point that you think we're implying by the current wording that he is dismissing all conventional scientific ideas or casting doubt on every study is a somewhat tortured reading of the current prose, I'd say. Yes, Sheldrake is questioning the "limitations" of certain facts such as the ones outlined. Lou Sander, I would argue, makes this case rather nicely for us. He thinks that there is weak evidence that biological organisms obey the conservation of energy. This is a claim that questions, fundamentally, the factual basis of the conservation of energy. [[User:QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV|jps]] ([[User talk:QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV|talk]]) 17:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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1RR restriction on this article
Due to continued edit warring after warnings all editors of the article currently at Rupert Sheldrake are restricted to making one revert in any twenty-four hour period on the article expiring at 02:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC). Violating this restriction may lead to a block or topic ban, as an arbitration enforcement action. Please note that editing reverting just outside the 24 hour period will be considered gaming the system and may result in the same sanction. This action is undertaken as Arbitration enforcement per the discretionary sanctions authorised by the Arbitration Committee in this decision and is logged here. You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the enforcement noticeboard. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- reverted clubots archving -not signing so the bot isnt fooled again - TRPOD
sokal affair
Consensus reached, discussion done.
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I removed some commentary on the sokal affair because it has nothing to do with Sheldrake. The criticisms etc are about the publication of the article and have no bearing on anyone mentioned in passing therein. Barleybannocks (talk) 02:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I have no beliefs to offend here. You are the one advocating a non-standard view of the world. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I hope this edit addresses the respective concerns expressed by the two editors above, and makes both Sokal's views of Sheldrake and his acknowledgment that he misrepresented Sheldrake transparent to the reader. --Andreas JN466 19:32, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
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Grammar Error?
Part of the article states:
- "Sheldrake debated biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy..."
It should read:
- "Sheldrake debated with the biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy..."
or
- "Sheldrake debated with biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy...
One debates a subject, not a person. One debates "with" or "against" a person. Baby English even to a Swede!
Kind regards 213.66.81.80 (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- debate 11) to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/re+debate 89.110.2.152 (talk) 02:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
- With respect, the example you give has no subject and is limited to U.S English. The following entries from the same dictionary provide further clarification where there is a subject, in U.S. English (using link above)
- 9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.
- 10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.
- 12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.
- The Oxford dictionary is not inconsistent with my point:
- For British and World English, see http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/debate
- For "American" English, see http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/debate
The following seems to clarify:
- 1. to enter into a long and disciplined discussion on a particular subject with someone. Our team debated with the other team about the chances for world peace. The candidates debate about taxes tomorrow. We will debate with them about health care. (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/debate)
- Regards 213.66.81.80 (talk) 14:46, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Pseudoscience
Pseudoscience it is, then.
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There is a perennial argument on this talk page that goes something like this: "Show me the scientific consensus that morphic resonance is pseudoscience! We only have opinions!" This is not how science works. Research grants are not awarded to investigate whether something is pseudoscience. Scientific journals do not invite papers on which newest things are determined to be pseudoscience. There is no annual scientific conference to decide which topics are pseudoscience. There is no global poll among the scientists of the world to determine what is pseudoscience. If any of these criteria were required for something to be called pseudoscience then nothing could be called pseudoscience and the word would cease to have meaning. It is inescapable that morphic resonance is generally considered pseudoscience per WP:ARB/PS. The references in the lead have since been deleted, but that is no excuse to feign ignorance of the many supporting references in the body of the article (last paragraph here). This is one thing that must remain firm in the article. Proponents of pseudoscience have a history of inappropriately using Wikipedia to promote pseudoscience, which had culminated in the ArbCom decision on pseudoscience (WP:ARB/PS). This road is well-trodden. The remedy for this abuse of Wikipeida is Arbitration Enforcement. vzaak 14:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Adam Lucas 21 C 1992 I am not seeing anything in here that specifically says "not psuedoscience". Can you point out what specifically you are drawing from here? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Barleybannocks, Robert Todd Carroll says that Sheldrake "has clearly abandoned conventional science in favor of magical thinking" and that Sheldrake's "continued pose as a scientist on the frontier of discovery is unwarranted".[4] Yet in that article the term "pseudoscience" does not appear. Following your argument, the Skeptic's Dictionary would be listed among the sources you are marshalling to support the claim that morphic resonance is not pseudoscience. Does that sound reasonable? On the other hand, we have sources that say "Despite Sheldrake's legitimate scientific credentials, his peers have roundly dismissed his theory as pseudoscience", "Almost all scientists who have looked into Sheldrake's theory consider it balderdash", and "most biologists considered Sheldrake's theory of morphic resonance hogwash". Do you have sources which support the contrary? Citing a few individuals will no do. The article says "generally regards morphic resonance as pseudoscience", which allows for individuals to disagree. In our earlier conversation I was apparently unable to communicate the difference between (a) real, actual scientific support for morphic resonance and (b) individuals who like Sheldrake and his general outlook. Even supposing there are individuals who explicitly say that morphic resonance is not pseudoscience (which I haven't seen that in your sources), that would still be consistent with the article text of "generally regards morphic resonance as pseudoscience". vzaak 18:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I think we definitely should put Chopra in the article. He's a lot more famous than Brian Josephson and practically everyone else mentioned in the article including Sheldrake himself. jps (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
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Information from the essay
I tried adding some more information about "The Sense of Being Stared At" and was immediately reverted. Since Barney3 didn't discuss I guess I will. What's the matter with this? The point of the article is to explain the subject, and I tried to touch on a few of the main headings from Part 2 (the practical experiments already having been covered more).
I'll admit, I find an unusual fondness for these arguments since despite not having known Sheldrake had such ideas I've made all four of them at one point or another over on the Science Refdesk (excluding the concept that consciousness has something to do with entanglement, that I should try to track down). Still, I didn't think I was far from neutral about it, and there's nothing "fringy" about explaining the main topics of a piece of writing. Wnt (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think you made a reasonable first attempt to cover some of Sheldrake's work in a section supposedly about Sheldrake's work, but some here want the entire article to deal with Sheldrake in a few words while giving over 80% of the space to criticism. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, per WP:PSTS the content of the article should be based on reliable sources assessment of the works of Sheldrake, not our regurgitation of his work. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree to a certain extent TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) - we do need to cover what his ideas say, and might very carefully use primary sources. However, we have a big problem with WP:SUMMARYSING nonsensical fringe, i.e. arguments that do not make sense, and this is where WP:SUMMARYSTYLE just falls apart. (where's the essay on that?)
- Instead of going into too much detail, it might be briefly to comment that Sheldrake argues that quantum mechanics and support his proposals, which I think is in the article anyway.
- It's also, as we point out, an essay on a website, not peer reviewed, not even published in a newspaper, and given Sheldrake's known propensity for "muddled diatribes", it's clearly not very reliable. We can't go into details on fringe theories, because they don't make sense. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- WP:SUMMARYSTYLE is about how Wikipedia articles relate to each other, not external content. It would only apply to this article if we determine that there is too much content to reasonably cover in one article and spin off daughter articles about specific content, such as a book or morphic resonance, into stand alone articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- What I meant TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) is that we have to summarise sources, but this assumes that arguments presented are broadly coherent, but if those arguments are incoherent, they are very difficult to explain. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- WP:SUMMARYSTYLE is about how Wikipedia articles relate to each other, not external content. It would only apply to this article if we determine that there is too much content to reasonably cover in one article and spin off daughter articles about specific content, such as a book or morphic resonance, into stand alone articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- It's also, as we point out, an essay on a website, not peer reviewed, not even published in a newspaper, and given Sheldrake's known propensity for "muddled diatribes", it's clearly not very reliable. We can't go into details on fringe theories, because they don't make sense. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we have to judge whether it makes sense, but actually it does make sense, quite good sense. It really is established quantum theory, so far as I know, that the stars were all smeared together in a superposition of vast numbers of quantum states, until the first man on Earth looked up and they resolved into their places. No? Wnt (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- At first I thought you were joking with this, and then, remembering previous conversations, realized you probably weren't. The answer is emphatically, "no". jps (talk) 02:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- It's the basic cat in a box. Until you open the box, there are bits of live cat and dead cat in a billion different positions all mixed up together in a superposition. Well... nobody can look into the box until there is somebody, right? Wnt (talk) 04:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Only if you think that Quantum decoherence is a "somebody". (And starlight is not in a quantum state of superposition, obviously.) jps (talk) 06:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Compare [8]: "We created the universe. ... this strong anthropic principle asserts the universe is hospitable to us because we could not create a universe in which we could not exist. While the weak anthropic principle involves a backward-in-time reasoning, this strong anthropic principle involves a form of backward-in-time action.
- "Quantum cosmologist John Wheeler back in the 1970s drew an eye looking at evidence of the Big Bang and asked: 'Does looking back "now" give reality to what happened "then"?' His provocative sketch has not lost impact..." [The sketch is of an eye, at one end of a grey U representing the world-line from a little "big bang", with an arrow from the eye back to the bang] Wnt (talk) 11:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Skirting the edges of the out-on-a-limbs of these physicists' flights of fancy is not a good way to build your physical understanding. The anthropic principle is not causal in the sense of causality and Wheeler's question in context is a similar game. Fred Hoyle's use of the anthropic principle to discover the resonance state of carbon-12 does not imply that we caused that state to exist. Cart before horse and all that. jps (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- You may be right in being skeptical of the anthropic principle - it does tend to verge into solipsism. But my point here isn't really to argue what is good physics; my point is to refute the contention, still being made above, that Sheldrake's ideas are too incoherent for it to be possible to summarize them. When they closely resemble other publications by other people - including ideas I myself have expressed - they are certainly possible to summarize, and it is appropriate here to do it. Sheldrake differs, of course, from other sources in arguing that it is possible some of these effects lead to testable predictions such as telepathy. Even so, when you're the king of Strong Anthropicland and the whole world has been made so that you exist, why shouldn't their thoughts be predictable a little more often than chance? It's not really that far of a stretch from established "scientific" ideas about quantum mechanics. Wnt (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Skirting the edges of the out-on-a-limbs of these physicists' flights of fancy is not a good way to build your physical understanding. The anthropic principle is not causal in the sense of causality and Wheeler's question in context is a similar game. Fred Hoyle's use of the anthropic principle to discover the resonance state of carbon-12 does not imply that we caused that state to exist. Cart before horse and all that. jps (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Only if you think that Quantum decoherence is a "somebody". (And starlight is not in a quantum state of superposition, obviously.) jps (talk) 06:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- It's the basic cat in a box. Until you open the box, there are bits of live cat and dead cat in a billion different positions all mixed up together in a superposition. Well... nobody can look into the box until there is somebody, right? Wnt (talk) 04:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- At first I thought you were joking with this, and then, remembering previous conversations, realized you probably weren't. The answer is emphatically, "no". jps (talk) 02:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
To summarize what I think you're saying, I think your opinion that Sheldrake's views are indistinguishable from a kind of solipsism and anthropocentrism that posits cognition as the central feature of the universe, rather in contradiction to Copernican ideals. I think that's a fine thesis, but we'll need some sources making this kind of analysis to be able to include such a summary here. In other words, I think the connection you are trying to make is a valid one, but I don't think we have the sources necessary to make it. Just because logical extensions to Roger Penrose's thoughts could be seen as similar to Sheldrake's proposals does not mean we are empowered at Wikipedia to make such connections, sadly. jps (talk) 22:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well, if you look up to the edit at the beginning of this, I wasn't doing anything nearly so complex as that. I just want us all to claim the right to describe the basic concepts Sheldrake raises seriously, without being stopped by claims that it is incoherent, pseudoscience, etc. So I'm not actually proposing to include a link to solipsism unless I find it in the writing being summarized or third party review of it. Wnt (talk) 05:32, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think there are ways to describe Sheldrake's ideas fairly without including caveats every other sentence. However, removing all criticism from the article seems a bit like overkill. It should be possible to describe what he believes without going down the rabbit hole and without sounding like an internet "yeahbut" debater. jps (talk) 15:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- I should disclose that I have expressed closely related ideas previously. [9][10] Of course, there are many pseudoscientific ideas that many people arrive at independently, but at the very least you can't say an idea is meaningless when different people can arrive at aspects of it independently. Wnt (talk) 22:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- Many people make similar typos and misspellings. That doesn't mean that the typo itself is meaningful (it is, by definition, an obfuscation of meaning). There is a sociological, perhaps even psychological (or maybe even pharmaceutical!) meaning behind fringe theories, but Barney, I believe, wasn't talking about these. He's talking about the substance of the claims. I know it's popular on Wikipedia to deal entirely syntactically, but we do have some responsibility to keep inaccurate information out of the encyclopedia or at least explain that it is inaccurate and only being included for completeness sake. jps (talk) 02:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- I should disclose that I have expressed closely related ideas previously. [9][10] Of course, there are many pseudoscientific ideas that many people arrive at independently, but at the very least you can't say an idea is meaningless when different people can arrive at aspects of it independently. Wnt (talk) 22:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- (ec)Well, it's legit "to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." I thought I was sticking to that pretty well - heck, I was really only trying to cover the headings of the source with a few extra words for flow. Per WP:IAR it is better for the article to convey that he was making an argument about quantum physics than giving the impression he just ran some numbers on pet owners. Wnt (talk) 22:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- To me, the 80%/20% seems to be a reasonable proportion so that the article is based on third party interpretations and assessments. The problem with going into more detail of his work based on what his work says is that there is so little reliable secondary sourced material critiquing it to keep the based on percentages appropriate and not swing to the point where the article becomes based on Sheldrake's primary source material. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think there are ways to describe Sheldrake's ideas fairly without including caveats every other sentence. However, removing all criticism from the article seems a bit like overkill. It should be possible to describe what he believes without going down the rabbit hole and without sounding like an internet "yeahbut" debater. jps (talk) 15:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Page numbers, please
I see some six citations to The Science Delusion which lack page numbers. In a three hundred-plus page book (at least in the US edition) it is unreasonable to put in such citations. These are being used to back up some strong claims, so if someone wishes to defend these it seems to me that the references need to fixed. Mangoe (talk) 22:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
- Jzg (talk · contribs) is reading it. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Done. I replaced The Science Delusion refs with Science Set Free refs (same book, US edition) and added a Google Books link. vzaak 14:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Restoring the Notes section
Consensus seems to support current layout; feel free to suggest specific changes if necessary
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I don't understand why a load of consecutive refs [12][43][13][44][45][46][47] in the article text is better than a Notes section. The addition of the Notes section was praised by all parties, so I don't understand the sudden change. The many references served a purpose: some editors were unaware of the status of morphic resonance in the scientific community, seeming to think it was just another theory alongside other theories. This misunderstanding is presumably shared by readers. A line of refs like this [12][43][13][44][45][46][47] should not be in the lead. Putting a few select refs in the lead has brought confusion and re-arguments again, as reflected in this talk page. Until all refs are removed from the lead, the Notes section is the only solution to the problem. I would support removing all refs from the lead, but it has to be an all-or-nothing situation. Restoring the Notes section also brought my attention to the bit about the public understanding of science. This is a significant section in the body of the article and should be reflected in the lead. vzaak 18:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Do not restore the note -- You clearly have ownership of the notes. In fact, only skeptical editors praised you. I for one frequently condemned the notes. Please do not restore them, as they tend to hid the piling on. Tom Butler (talk) 20:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
That has been done, probably hundreds of time. The reason it sounds like I "scream" and "whine" is that what I have said is not what you want to hear. You exhibit a serious sense ownership in this article and editors like Barney are just trying to support you. My irritation is at the stonewall you and others are putting up here and at the admin's complacency. Of course I am going to complain. Do you really think I ... and others will just surrender and go away with further actions? Are you that insulated here? It is unfortunate you do not have the courage of your convictions to use your real name so that we can see your credentials. Tom Butler (talk) 21:42, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I think the consensus is clear. Don't overload the lede with references. Restore the notes section as constructed by David in DC. jps (talk) 15:49, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
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Sources being misrepresented in the article
Redundant per results of AE
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I note that in this edit [11] TRPoD added "Midgley also noted that scientists mostly ignored the book", but nowhere in the cited source does Midgley say this or anything like it. Grateful for clarification here.Barleybannocks (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) is now [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rupert_Sheldrake&diff=585769752&oldid=585762002 misrepresenting sources in the article] by placing content by Midgley in her review "The Science Delusion by Rupert Sheldrake - review" as if she were discussing the book A New Science of Life. Admittedly Sheldrake regurgitates his material from one book to another, but placing the review with the wrong book is inappropriate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:08, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
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Changes to the article
Suggestions are insufficiently specific to be of use
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One of the major problems with the article at the moment is that there are no sections which discuss the main themes in Sheldrake's work - the stuff he's notable for - except in the few words devoted to them in sections specifically about his books. This means that, given the same themes run through many of Sheldrake's books, the book sections are almost devoid of content about what's in the book, and the central themes in Sheldrake's work get only very rudimentary treatment as part of some of those books. A better way to structire the article would be, I think, to take three or four of the central themes in Sheldrake's work and write a short section on each so that the reader might leave having been informed somewhat about the actual topic of the article. The four sections I have in mind are:
So by treating each of these separately, and noting the interconnections between the various strands, we could fairly easily give quite a sound overview of Sheldrake's ideas and their context, which could in turn feed into the (reduced) sections about the books. In this way, I think, the article could be made much more informative, and much better than the current version, which is still C class, and has a hodge-podge feel to it. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:50, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Back to the original proposition: why dont you draft what you think such a restructured article might look like, now being pretty well aware of what major concerns might be and taking them into account. Otherwise this section has long passed any usefulness and should be archived. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC) |
off-topic commentary
content originally removed from the page under a misguided application of WP:BLP, however, they are unlikely to facilitate forward progress on improving the article
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How about dividing it into:
-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
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WP:NOTFORUM applies.
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TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) and Barney the barney barney (talk · contribs), you do realise that WP:BLP applies to "Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page", don't you? I suggest you withdraw the personal attacks against Dr Sheldrake and his work above, or ask for them to be oversighted. After that, I also suggest a cooling off period where you voluntarily offer not to edit here for a while. --Nigelj (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Thank Nigelj (talk · contribs) - I think for TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) and TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) there is a defence of fair comment that seems to be amply supported by the sources, don't you think. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
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"Ignored" in lead
Discussion superseded by AE
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I removed "Scientists have mostly ignored his research" because it's already implicit in the noting of pseudoscience. The amount of criticism in the lead seems about right, and going too far can deflect from other points. Also, Mary "still doesn't get selfish genes" Midgley isn't a good source for this. I'll self-revert if it turns out people really want it, though. vzaak 22:32, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Arbitration Enforcement request openedAs indicated above, because of Barleybannocks refusal to edit under the condictions that Sheldrake's work is generally considered pseudoscience, an arbitration enforcement review has been opened. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Barleybannocks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
Poll: Placement of book review contents
This in in regard to the book review
- The Science Delusion by Rupert Sheldrake - review by Mary Midgley.
And the content from the review: " Philosopher Mary Midgley stated she found antecedents for his thoughts on habits versus laws of nature in the writings of CS Peirce, Nietzsche, William James and AN Whitehead."
Where is it appropriate to place the above content/commentary from book review:
1) In the section A New Science of Life because "because the content, in this case, is identical. That is, in both case it is about habits versus laws of nature which appears, in identical form, in both books." or
2) In the section The Science Delusion because that is the book she is reviewing or
3) somewhere else or
4) not include it at all?
Placement of book review: !vote
Please indicate where the content from the book review should be placed, with a 1, 2, 3, or 4 and a short rationale. If you choose 3) please specify where.
- If we include them, 2. We should not be committing WP:SYN by taking a set of comments in a book review about book X and misapplying them as if they were made about book Y. I am not certain that they are appropriate and could be convinced that 4 is a better option. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:57, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- I have been following this debate. I echo and adopt the position of TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom. I dont see the point of this quote in the context of scientific legitimacy, one way or the other. But, if the consensus is to include it, then In 2. I want to say that any reference must be balanced. For example, in the same article Midgley clearly states (i add emphasis):
- "Whether or not [sic] we want to follow Sheldrake's further speculations on topics such as morphic resonance, his insistence on the need to attend to possible wider ways of thinking is surely right."
- The one cannot be included one without the other. But caution should be exercised to ensure it is clear the opinion set out above is not an endorsement of any view, rather an endorsement only of the modus operandi that Sheldrakes views represent (i.e. "wider ways of thinking"). The fact the words state "surely right" is part of the quote. As such, it underscores there can be no equivocation on the part of the author in this aspect and must be included.
- But note: Midgley is primarily a moral philosopher (in the vein of say, JD Raphael). In such respects her opinion adds little nothing to the scientific legitimacy for Sheldrake's view (one way or the other). Ultimately, this is why I do not see the point. The real point she makes (namely "wider possible ways of thinking") is hardly controversial. It is (partly) what drives scientific discovery and innovation --- and as such it is "stating the obvious". Put simply, any scientist or non-scientist does not need a moral philosopher's "legitimization" to push the envelope, surely? Regards to all 213.66.81.80 (talk) 12:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Since the quote is about intellectual antecedents of Sheldrake's view of habits versus laws of nature, and is about nothing else, I say we should put it wherever that point is being discussed as long as we ensure that it is the self same point.Barleybannocks (talk) 00:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- 2, since it's from the review of that book. Or maybe 4, since it's a curiously-chosen snippet from a thoughtful analysis of the ideas expressed in the book. BTW, some of the stuff above seems like it belongs in the Discussion section below. Specifically, maybe, Wnt's comment and 213's mini-wall of text. Lou Sander (talk) 22:02, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Placement of book review: discussion
Discussion, questions or requests for clarification go here to allow the consensus !votes above to be clearly evaluated and not lost in the walls of text that plague this talk page.
- This poll seems like ridiculous micromanagement. Let's be clear: if you have a reliable source about Sheldrake, or his books, or his ideas (for or against, I don't care), then it belongs in the article, together with enough description that you know what the source was trying to say. Where is a matter of organization that is prone to change. Wnt (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- The talk page and article status suggest that micromanagement is needed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:16, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- Mary Midgley is an academic, or at least a former academic. She is making a thoughtful analysis of Sheldrake's ideas as expressed in this book. One wonders why more of her analysis doesn't make it into the article. IMHO the proper place for such things is where the article discusses Sheldrake's ideas about science, but such a place is hard to find. On the other hand, it is EASY to find places where his ideas are subtly presented as objects of ridicule, without any elucidation of them, e.g, his questioning the "fact" of Conservation of energy. Also easy to find are personal opinions about his work from those whose oxen it gores, and opinions from editors of journals that formerly published his work. Good encyclopedia articles aren't put together this way. Lou Sander (talk) 22:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- We could have a section for inclusion of supporters of Sheldrake's mystical thinking like Midgley and Chopra. I see nothing wrong with that. The Guardian has certainly seems to have a soft-spot for anti-scientific "woo" (to use James Randi's term). See their paen to Chopra: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/aug/17/healthandwellbeing.familyandrelationships jps (talk) 12:14, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- Quite a few sources make the point that Sheldrake is trying to naturalise science by getting rid of many of the mystical/transcendental entities (laws) that need to be invoked at present, and replacing them with something like habits that would themselves be subject to direct scientific study. I think the article should probably note this point as it's a fairly central theme of his writing.Barleybannocks (talk) 13:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure we have the necessary reliable sources to explain this fully. It certainly makes no sense from the standpoint that Sheldrake's incorporation of his own mystical entity into his description of reality is the thing which most clearly identifies him as a pseudoscientist according to our sources. His "naturalization" as couched is in favor of eliminating all verified theories in favor of an anything-goes approach (allowing him to jump back into the game instead of being an outsider, I suppose). But this kind of muddled thinking is natural only in the sense of the naturalistic fallacy. I think if you want to include such commentary, you're going to have to do better than philosophers who are documented to be prone to anti-science and mysticism. jps (talk) 16:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what "mystical entity" you imagine Sheldrake wants to incorporate. His whole argument seem to be to eliminate the need for such entities by rendering the laws of nature subject to direct scientific scrutiny rather than merely shedding light on the nature of the non-natural Laws by means of their effects. I'm also not sure how the naturalistic fallacy relates to this point. I suspect it doesn't at all. Have you actually read any of Sheldrake's work? Barleybannocks (talk) 17:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- I was also unaware that the views of respected academics are barred from Wikipedia. Perhaps you could clarify where such a rule is stated.Barleybannocks (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- We do it all the time. A noted expert on butterflies is barred from having their comments included in the social impact of the Boxer Rebellion, and the noted expert on the Boxer Rebellion is barred from having their comments included in the article on the International Space Station. It is quite proper to bar an expert on philosophy from having their comments included on science related topics. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:08, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- What rot. He's not offering the kind of explanation that would develop the fields that have "spookiness" because his conjectures are at odds with what is already well established, and because his reasons for asserting this "simplification" are self-serving - remember, if Planck's constant were zero, QM equations would match classical mechanics, which is why classical mechanics is still good enough for most purposes. Sheldrake offers only conjecture with no rigour and no explanatory power. To claim otherwise is to blatantly violate Wikipedia policy. Guy (Help!) 05:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- at this point, it is pretty clear that the consensus for placement if we include it is to place it with context in Science Delusion so i have added the context and moved it there [15].
- since three of the four participants !voted with an indication that inclusion might not be appropriate and it seems that position is also strongly held by @JzG:, the discussion is now whether or not to include it.
- We have already included one statement by Midgeley, does she merit two comments? as a philosopher, i think that her analysis comparing Sheldrakes work to philosophers is probably a more appropriate comment to include than her declaration that science should be less materialistic - an area of which she has no competence to comment.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:37, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- The section presenting Midgley's opinion could certainly be trimmed, as other quotes demonstrate that this view is far form universal. My reading of the sources is that Sheldrake's statements are more coherent than those of your typical Kuhn-loving crank, but that is pretty much the limit of their actual substantive merit.
- Scientism is a pejorative beloved of creationists, homeopathists and other people whose religious beliefs are contradicted by robust science - its use always invites the question: what, precisely, is wrong with giving the highest priority to empirically testable fact when trying to understand the universe? It does seem rather as if the use of fact rather than faith has resulted in a more complete understanding, and indeed the approach denigrated as "scientism" would appear to have achieved more understanding in a few generations years than the entirety of human history up to the age of enlightenment if not beyond. Certainly the likes of Robert Hooke, Robert Boyle, Christopher Wren and so on, would have seen very little to argue with in the idea that science was the best way of understanding and describing the universe, and they were very much believers in the metaphysical. Being a Christian and the son of a clergyman did not prevent Hooke from stating in 1690 that fossils were the remains of ancient creatures that no longer walk the earth.
- Even so, this would be much less of a problem if Sheldrake presented his conjectures as philosophical speculations, or quasi-religious beliefs. The problem lies entirely in his insistence that not only are they science, but they are science whose rejection is due to dogma, rather than, as is actually the case, his own failure to provide compelling evidence that they are valid. Guy (Help!) 17:11, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure we have the necessary reliable sources to explain this fully. It certainly makes no sense from the standpoint that Sheldrake's incorporation of his own mystical entity into his description of reality is the thing which most clearly identifies him as a pseudoscientist according to our sources. His "naturalization" as couched is in favor of eliminating all verified theories in favor of an anything-goes approach (allowing him to jump back into the game instead of being an outsider, I suppose). But this kind of muddled thinking is natural only in the sense of the naturalistic fallacy. I think if you want to include such commentary, you're going to have to do better than philosophers who are documented to be prone to anti-science and mysticism. jps (talk) 16:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- Quite a few sources make the point that Sheldrake is trying to naturalise science by getting rid of many of the mystical/transcendental entities (laws) that need to be invoked at present, and replacing them with something like habits that would themselves be subject to direct scientific study. I think the article should probably note this point as it's a fairly central theme of his writing.Barleybannocks (talk) 13:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Talk page semiprotected
I hate semiprotecting talk pages, but Tumbleman is seriously impeding progress here. It is time for the single purpose and agenda accounts to find another hobby and leave fixing this article to experienced Wikipedians who understand words like "compromise". Guy (Help!) 00:40, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't really think that there is enough disruption from Tumbleman socks to warrant semi-protection especially given the other IP editors who contribute to the talk page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- You guys need to be more specific in identifying socks, as at the moment I'm guessing. just the first two digits would do, or you could strike through them? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:04, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Callanecc, evidence is forthcoming for the newest Tumbleman sockpuppet. Also, the person who initially triggered the page protection for the article is expected to violate his/her topic ban once again (and there is further off-site confirmation of this). In addition, there is the case of the IP that completely buried this talk page in comments and repeatedly disrupted it with "battle factions" information.[16][17] After the SPI I was going to file a formal RFPP. vzaak 01:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Roxy, do you mean when we block them strike their comments on the talk page (the marked block script might be useful)? Vzaak, as a regular at WP:RFPP, I would decline the protection request (and I imagine the other regulars would was well). There is no where near enough disruption to warrant semi-protecting a talk page especially given there are also good faith IP contributions to the talk page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Something like that yes. I had no idea that Bubblefish was still socking on this page, and I still don't know which IP he is. Perhaps it is my own lack of experience on here that I don't see the notification of such a finding amongst all the stuff that is happening on drama boards, and my own watchlist. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I've done a couple as I block them, but when you review an SPI report with a few account and some IPs, striking every comment they make on a talk page isn't really feasible. My best suggestion would be the marked blocked script (which I advise everyone to use), it puts a line through the IP/account when it's linked to the userpage or talk page or contribs and if you hover over it gives you the block information. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Something like that yes. I had no idea that Bubblefish was still socking on this page, and I still don't know which IP he is. Perhaps it is my own lack of experience on here that I don't see the notification of such a finding amongst all the stuff that is happening on drama boards, and my own watchlist. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Roxy, do you mean when we block them strike their comments on the talk page (the marked block script might be useful)? Vzaak, as a regular at WP:RFPP, I would decline the protection request (and I imagine the other regulars would was well). There is no where near enough disruption to warrant semi-protecting a talk page especially given there are also good faith IP contributions to the talk page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Callanecc, evidence is forthcoming for the newest Tumbleman sockpuppet. Also, the person who initially triggered the page protection for the article is expected to violate his/her topic ban once again (and there is further off-site confirmation of this). In addition, there is the case of the IP that completely buried this talk page in comments and repeatedly disrupted it with "battle factions" information.[16][17] After the SPI I was going to file a formal RFPP. vzaak 01:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Callanecc, the disruption is not only to the talk page itself, but the time editors have to put into compiling the next SPI in lieu of being productive. I also pointed out the other person that avows off-wiki to disrupt the page (per our conversation on your talk page), as well the tsunami flood by the other IP. Are you sure this isn't sufficient? vzaak 02:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not until or unless it actually happens, otherwise it's preemptive. There has only been one blocked sock (with two edits) in the last week, and that is definitely not enough to warrant protecting an article or project, let alone a talk page with good faith IP contributors. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:17, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Callanecc, the disruption is not only to the talk page itself, but the time editors have to put into compiling the next SPI in lieu of being productive. I also pointed out the other person that avows off-wiki to disrupt the page (per our conversation on your talk page), as well the tsunami flood by the other IP. Are you sure this isn't sufficient? vzaak 02:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Tumbleman (talk · contribs) is far from being the most disruptive talk page echo chamber here. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not seeing genuine good faith from IPs here, just WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT obduracy and some pretty obvious sockpuppetry. Guy (Help!) 05:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I've asked for other opinions on WP:ANI#Semi protection of Talk:Rupert Sheldrake|ANI]] asking for another opinion on whether the protection is warranted. Regards, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:46, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
New book on this issue
Unreliable source agreed to be unreliable
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Craig Weiler's new book is out, and we should really decide if it is a reliable source? I'd be happy to chip in a few pence in order to save on group expense. Once purchased, we could read it, make notes and then pass it on to the next person in the chain. Anybody else interested? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The book tells me that "the question of autism and vaccines is actually still quite open", and says Andrew Wakefield was "independently replicated", with a footnote. The footnote is a link to the Natural News website, which in turn contains a link to the file "BRIAN DEER IS THE LIAR .pdf" (with space before dot) which holds "THE PROOF". This stuff is so far afield. It's also curious how completely unrelated conspiracy theories tend to be embraced seemingly by virtue of the fact that they are conspiracy theories. vzaak 04:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I read through the Wikipedia-related chapters of this ebook and I found it to be full of errors of fact, grammar and even ridiculous copy-editing errors. He claimed in a blog post that he was disappointed that no publisher would touch it, but it's no wonder - it's an editing mess. It's clear that much of it was derived from blog posts, but its not even consistent from one section to another as to whether it hyperlinks sources or footnotes them. No way this can be used as a reliable source. ETA: My comments are based on the PDF version of the book he published on his own website earlier, here's the link: PDF Krelnik (talk) 01:40, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
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A modest proposal re: facts
This revert was done on the basis of some rather poorly argued justifications. Energy is conserved. That is a fact. Perpetual motion is impossible. That is a fact. When Sheldrake contradicts them, he is contradicting facts. People who think that these are not facts are wrong, and the best way they can disabuse themselves of being wrong is by, for example, taking an introductory physics course at their local college or university. That's the essence of WP:COMPETENCE. jps (talk) 19:16, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are talking about something which you do not understand. Principles such as conservation of energy are facts in the context of known physics and within the bounds of the physical. I have a lot more than an introductory education in physics and have no problem agreeing that, if bounded properly, the principles hold true.
- You get into trouble with your bold statement by ignoring the scope of Sheldrake's hypothesis. It is more related to mind which, without even resorting to some hypothetical subtle energy space, is an intangible. Even in reductionist views, mind is a derivative property and one cannot assume that it is subject to physical principles since it is not seen as being bound by the body--even as a product of brain.
- In the simplistic view, morphic fields can be modeled as derivative properties of life. That means some physical proprieties may not directly apply. just as Newtonian Physics was fact in the general sense, the mass-acceleration equation had to be modified to accommodate new understanding from relativity.
- I believe that all Sheldrake is trying to do is address the implications of morphic fields. In the context of the Hypothesis of Formative Causation, some physical principles may need to be modified a little to accommodate a broader view. You, nor any editor here has the authority to edit his proposal. All we can do is report. Reporting reaction is fine, but I am really tired of editors here pronouncing under some undisclosed authority that they are smarter than the person they are reporting on. Tom Butler (talk) 19:51, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- So Sheldrake says "the law of conservation of energy is not a law" and means "the mind is physical, but the mind isn't a physical because that's reductionist thinking". Thanks Tom Butler (talk · contribs), makes perfect sense now, as long as we ignore the change of subject and contradiction in the second part. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- There are only 5 million sources for "law of conservation of energy", [18] so I guess it's up to the editors here to argue it out. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Mangoe's removal of the phrasing altogether. That said, my competence is not at all an issue here. Scientific law is not synonymous with scientific fact. A law can still be falsified, however unlikely it may be for that to happen, but a fact can not be falsified.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
(I made this point a little while ago.) Originally the text mentioned that perpetual motion was a pseudoscientific concept. Indeed the citation, which explicitly states the perpetual motion is pseudoscience, is still there in the article. Trying to soften the lead, I removed the "pseudoscientific" clause, but this left open a hole where the mainstream view was not stated per WP:PSCI. One way to avoid the "fact" word while presumably satisfying jps is to revert back to the original, something like, "He advocates questioning conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion devices, a position regarded as pseudoscientific." vzaak 04:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- The context of the paragraph seems to make it clear enough that his views on these issues are in opposition to accepted science. I mean, the sentence starts out with "Sheldrake also argues that science has become a world-view bound by a set of dogmas rather than an open-minded method of investigating phenomena" and the next sentence says "He accuses scientists of being susceptible to "the recurrent fantasy of omniscience" and says "the biggest scientific delusion of all is that science already knows the answers" in principle, leaving only the details to be worked out." Anyone who doubts it even after reading all that can look at the articles, which make it fairly clear how strongly these views are held within the scientific community. No reason to insist on tacking labels to things.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:00, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Does anyone know any competent scientist who claims that "science already knows the answers in principle, leaving only the details to be worked out." That sounds to me like a ludicrously absolutist position, put up as a strawman. Yes, scientists get irritated by people who put forward complicated, non-logical theories for phenomena which can't be shown to exist. But absolute knowledge is the domain of faith and religion, not science. Sheldrake makes these claims about scientists, but they are not really true. Dingo1729 (talk) 05:28, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- The Devil's Advocate, a primary reason that the article is controversial is because is these things are not widely understood. The article should assume very little about the reader. vzaak 06:36, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
If we are going to say that Sheldrake, "questions" two things: "the conservation of energy" and the "impossibility of perpetual motion", we have to basically explain what about them he is questioning. He is not questioning, for example, their lexicography. Nor is he questioning the appropriateness of the context where these points are made. He is, according to the very source we cite, questioning whether they are true. That is, he is questioning whether they are facts. It's a simple as that. The wording as currently offered simply does not explain what he is questioning. We could rewrite it as, for example, "advocates questioning whether the conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion devices are facts", but leaving it without categorical identification is too ambiguous, and simply does not explain the situation as we are commanded to do by WP:SUMMARY and WP:ASSERT.
What we certainly cannot say is that he advocates questioning LAWS since the impossibility of perpetual motion devices is not a "LAW" in the proper sense (that fact is actually based on the three[four] laws of thermodynamics). Something's going to have to change, and not on the basis of the erroneous claims above that facts "cannot be falsified" which is not only shoddy science, it's even shoddier argumentation in light of how falsification works. Here's a scientific fact: "Liquid water, when starting at STP, will freeze at 0 degrees Celsius". This fact can be falsified by a single observation that shows this not to be true. If you think facts can't be falsified, you are not competent enough to be editorializing here. Sorry.
jps (talk) 05:58, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- (1) Supercooling violates your "fact". (2) Scientists thought that radioactivity violated the law of the Conservation of Energy[19][20] (3) "In quantum systems the principle of conservation of energy can be temporarily violated."[21][22] also in respect to Hawking radiation[23] (4) Is dualism consistent with the Conservation of Energy?[24][25]. Do these sources suggest that anyone can question the law of the Conservation of Energy, except Sheldrake? --Iantresman (talk) 10:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- No, supercooling does not violate the laws of physics. It is a limiting case of the laws. Your arguments are precisely the kind of fringe bunk that we have to guard against: to say that because some quantum phenomena appear to violate the laws of conservation of energy locally and under certain circumstances, is akin to asserting that Heisenberg means we can't measure the position of a football in motion or that entanglement means you can split a football so it's at both ends of the pitch simultaneously. It's also ignoring the fact that these effects are known, by scientists who (unlike Sheldrake) are physicists, experts in the specific field, and they do not consider that there is a problem with conservation of energy or perpetual motion being impossible, because they (unlike Sheldrake) are following the evidence where it leads, rather than trying to construct support for a conjectural house of cards. Guy (Help!) 10:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please don't twist my words. I did not say that supercooling violates the laws of physics, I said that it violates jps's "fact" that "Liquid water, when starting at STP, will freeze at 0 degrees Celsius". Your comments on "fringe bunk" are offensive. --Iantresman (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- No twisting of words is necessary. With 1) you spectacularly missed the point of my example and actually gave a good explanation for why we need to explain what Sheldrake disputes, 2) and 3) are typically shoddy red herrings, but may come in useful later on if you can reformulate them as facts so that people can see how they are falsified. jps (talk) 11:21, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please don't twist my words. I did not say that supercooling violates the laws of physics, I said that it violates jps's "fact" that "Liquid water, when starting at STP, will freeze at 0 degrees Celsius". Your comments on "fringe bunk" are offensive. --Iantresman (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- No, supercooling does not violate the laws of physics. It is a limiting case of the laws. Your arguments are precisely the kind of fringe bunk that we have to guard against: to say that because some quantum phenomena appear to violate the laws of conservation of energy locally and under certain circumstances, is akin to asserting that Heisenberg means we can't measure the position of a football in motion or that entanglement means you can split a football so it's at both ends of the pitch simultaneously. It's also ignoring the fact that these effects are known, by scientists who (unlike Sheldrake) are physicists, experts in the specific field, and they do not consider that there is a problem with conservation of energy or perpetual motion being impossible, because they (unlike Sheldrake) are following the evidence where it leads, rather than trying to construct support for a conjectural house of cards. Guy (Help!) 10:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with jps to the extent that using the word "law" invites precisely the kind of hair-splitting we've seen on this page for the past few weeks; conservation of energy is what it is. The name we apply to this kind of theory - law, principle, whatever - is largely irrelevant: the principle stands not because it is called a law but because no observation has ever contradicted it to the extent that it is called into question, and because science built on the assumption that it is true, has greater consistency and explanatory power than anything based on it being false. Same for perpetual motion. One decent experiment incontrovertibly demonstrating perpetual motion at the macro level, would overturn the law, but that has never happened, and each successive failed attempt makes it less likely that it ever will. It is unlikely that the reader will draw anything but the obvious conclusion from Sheldrake's questioning of the impossibility of perpetual motion. Guy (Help!) 11:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- There is no argument that the law of conservation of energy is valid and stands. I agree with you and jps. But the THREE exceptions I described (with sources), all consider the violation of the law. None of them state: violation of the fact, because this "hair splitting" as you call it, is relevant here. These violations are exactly why "principle" and "laws" are so named.
- We can easily resolve this issue by referring to secondary sources that review Sheldrake's book, and see how they describe his views on the conservation of energy. --Iantresman (talk) 11:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Or we can accept that my recent edit cuts the Gordian knot by getting rid of the quibbled over phrase and move on. Mangoe (talk) 13:49, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- You didn't expect this to be easy, did you? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 13:56, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I am quite happy with Mangoe's edit.[26] I am unhappy with the reasoning for reverting to a phrase which is not supported by Sheldrake, or any other reliable sources. --Iantresman (talk) 15:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Or we can accept that my recent edit cuts the Gordian knot by getting rid of the quibbled over phrase and move on. Mangoe (talk) 13:49, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- What you described there is not really a "fact" but a "law" as it presumes something that has not yet occurred will occur as similar things have occurred in the past. A fact would be a specific instance of water being frozen at 0 degrees. In common parlance we would dispense with such technical terminology and call the temperature at which water freezes a fact, but that would not make it a fact in a scientific sense. This article discusses things from a more scientific perspective and we should thus avoid such misleading terminology. Not sure what calling conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion facts would achieve except shoddy and misleading wording. Anyone who has had a basic course in science knows the law of conservation of energy well enough to know what it means for Sheldrake to suggest questioning it.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 18:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Selected material from Scientific law - "A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspect of the world. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements. Factual and well-confirmed statements like "Mercury is liquid at standard temperature and pressure" are considered too specific to qualify as scientific laws.... Laws differ from scientific theories in that they do not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: they are merely distillations of the results of repeated observation. As such, a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and may be found false when extrapolated. Ohm's law only applies to linear networks, Newton's law of universal gravitation only applies in weak gravitational fields, the early laws of aerodynamics such as Bernoulli's principle do not apply in case of compressible flow such as occurs in transonic and supersonic flight, Hooke's law only applies to strain below the elastic limit, etc. These laws remain useful, but only under the conditions where they apply." Lou Sander (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- As I said, including the word invites precisely this sort of hair-splitting. But here's how it works: you advance a conjecture that conflicts with laws of physics. You have two options: one is to develop a proof that your conjecture actually doesn't conflict with the laws of physics, the other is to come up with a proof of your conjecture which is stronger than the evidence supporting the laws with which it conflicts, and which also explains all the observations to date. That's what happened with quantum mechanics: it succeeded as a theory because it was more complete than the previous theory, and was also consistent with all existing observations including those which were troublesome under the existing theory.
- Sheldrake has instead chosen to merely repudiate the law of conservation of energy. Note that the existing anomalous observations are already scientifically known so are included in the broad class of what Sheldrake repudiates. He's basically saying that this theory on which great chunks of entirely valid physics is based, is simply wrong, but offers nothing in its place (not least because he's not a physicist).
- Can you see why this does not work, regardless of the term we use to describe the law? Guy (Help!) 09:29, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- Selected material from Scientific law - "A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspect of the world. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements. Factual and well-confirmed statements like "Mercury is liquid at standard temperature and pressure" are considered too specific to qualify as scientific laws.... Laws differ from scientific theories in that they do not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: they are merely distillations of the results of repeated observation. As such, a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and may be found false when extrapolated. Ohm's law only applies to linear networks, Newton's law of universal gravitation only applies in weak gravitational fields, the early laws of aerodynamics such as Bernoulli's principle do not apply in case of compressible flow such as occurs in transonic and supersonic flight, Hooke's law only applies to strain below the elastic limit, etc. These laws remain useful, but only under the conditions where they apply." Lou Sander (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
The issue here is simple. Decent writing requires explaining what about these two ideas Sheldrake rejects. He rejects their factualness. That they are facts themselves is ancillary to the text in question. I'm adding the stuff back in since there is essentially no argument against it. Mangoe, thanks for trying to cut the Gordion knot, but your noble attempt really just made things a bit less clear to the reader. jps (talk) 11:13, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- The body of the article says that Sheldrake "has stated that "the evidence for energy conservation in living organisms is weak." He apparently formed that opinion when he was a scientist studying living organisms at Cambridge and having papers published in journals such as Nature. The living organisms stuff was formerly in the lead, as I recall. Lou Sander (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
@jps. The sources do not appear to suggest that he is checking their "factualness", a word that is not even mentioned in them. He does ask whether "The conservation of matter and energy seem like a mathematical truth"[27] which is not the same thing. The second references has nothing to do with Sheldrake. We can better refer to one of the several book reviews available. For example, "His intention is not to dismiss all conventional scientific ideas or cast doubt on every study but instead he insists on their limitations"[28], ie. he is questioning their limitations. --Iantresman (talk) 15:08, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Ian, your tiresome insistence on precise wording is indicative of a kind of myopia that has no place here. Searching for the word "fact" in the sources and complaining when you get no matches is just about the most brain-dead way to make an editorial argument, and you've been falling back on this research-by-search-engine approach entirely too often over your entire Wikipedia career. In any case, your final point that you think we're implying by the current wording that he is dismissing all conventional scientific ideas or casting doubt on every study is a somewhat tortured reading of the current prose, I'd say. Yes, Sheldrake is questioning the "limitations" of certain facts such as the ones outlined. Lou Sander, I would argue, makes this case rather nicely for us. He thinks that there is weak evidence that biological organisms obey the conservation of energy. This is a claim that questions, fundamentally, the factual basis of the conservation of energy. jps (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)