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The edit war needs to end, discuss the problems and come up with a consensus, I couldn't care less since it is not really that important to me but this is a serious problem. Both sides need to present their case and if Operation Spooner doesn't want to cooperate he should be blocked for a short time until he agrees to stop edit warring.--[[User:Southern Texas|<font color = "red">'''Southern''' </font>]][[User talk:Southern Texas|<font color = "blue">'''Texas'''</font>]] 04:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC) |
The edit war needs to end, discuss the problems and come up with a consensus, I couldn't care less since it is not really that important to me but this is a serious problem. Both sides need to present their case and if Operation Spooner doesn't want to cooperate he should be blocked for a short time until he agrees to stop edit warring.--[[User:Southern Texas|<font color = "red">'''Southern''' </font>]][[User talk:Southern Texas|<font color = "blue">'''Texas'''</font>]] 04:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:I don't consider it an "edit war." It's just run-of-the-mill editing. What is wrong with someone making changes and another person deleting the changes? That's Wikipedia. Do you want or expect a static article? That can never happen, because this is Wikipedia. I've already mentioned several times that I'm willing to discuss my changes here if anyone wants to, but no one deleting my changes has said anything here. You're the first one to mention anything here but unfortunately you're not an involved party in this. As far as any "consensus" as far as I know there is one, because my changes was agreed to here as well as in the vote for Featured article. But even then there is no rule that I'm aware of that says there has to be a consensus first in order to put something in an article. What is the point of obtaining a consensus anyway if it's only good for that day? The next day everything is back to square one, as we've seen. So what's it for? Just to pretend that something permanent is being accomplished? Seems like a naive and childish quest. I've already said that I don't care if anyone reverts my additions because I'm willing to share this article with others. I have no ambitions to monopolize it, to keep it the way I want it. As long as my edit stands for just a few minutes out of a day or two I'm satisfied. What more could one ask for on Wikipedia? Asking anything more out of Wikipedia seems really stupid and a waste of time. [[User:Operation Spooner|Operation Spooner]] 05:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC) |
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Reaganomics shortening
Hi everyone. This article has been up for FAC six or seven times, and the last one was, in my opinion, the closest one to passing, but one thing stood in the way: the "Reaganomics and the economy" section. I think everyone working on this article will support me when I say that Ronald Reagan should be a FA, and is so very close! If we fix up the Reaganomics section, make it a little less POV, and dramatically shrink the size of it (it's the longest subsection), we stand a much better chance of the FAC passing. I'm going to list quotes/comments from other editors rating the article, we can see what they thought, then work from there:
- Oppose. The crucial section on reaganomics is badly written, not neutral and poorly sourced. It's poorly referenced since it mostly draws from primary sources (raw government data), or from unreliable sources as the Heritage Foundation; the best of the scholar/academic literature must be used instead. It is not neutral because the two paragraphs devoted to "economic data" are divided in "facts" and "criticism"; the first presents mostly apparently favorable aspects (the "facts"), and the second discusses the non favorable ones (marginalized as "criticism"). (oh, I'd never expected that from a Reagan fanboy :). In the end, it is a "pick and choose" list of confusingly related data, and lacks the perspective of a writer that has broadly studied the whole subject (reviewing the main reaganomics article would be a good exercise for this).--BMF81 11:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Does the section sound more nuetral now, or am I missing the point? Happyme22 23:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with BMF81 on the need for a better treatment of the criticism of Reagan's economic policies. David Stockman's views, in particular, should probably be taken into account since he was a very prominent critic at the time (and had inside knowledge). Haukur 17:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- We originally had a quote criticizing Reagan himself by David Stockman, but chose, by consensus,to replace it with one by Don Regan, fmr. Chief of Staff and Sec. of the Treasury, for the quote by him seemed to focus more on Ronald Reagan himself, and that's what we were aiming for. Happyme22 22:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Regan quote isn't bad but I think it's weird to omit the juiciest part of it: "From first day to last at Treasury, I was flying by the seat of my pants." Have you read The Triumph of Politics, by the way? I strongly recommend it. I couldn't help but feel sympathy for Stockman, a somewhat naive ideologue who gets stuck in a world of compromising congressmen, "lemon socialism" and public relations. Haukur 23:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Does the section sound more nuetral now, or am I missing the point? Happyme22 23:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think you have indeed made improvements but I still see some problems. I'm especially concerned with this sentence: "The policies were derided by some as "Trickle-down economics," due to the facts that the combination of significant tax cuts and a massive increase in Cold War related defense spending caused large budget deficits, the U.S. trade deficit expansion, and contributed to the Savings and Loan crisis, as well as the stock market crash of 1987 (known as "Black Monday")." First of all "derided by some" is not great writing but I'd be willing to let that slide. I think the major problem is that you're trying to condense too much into a single sentence and the causal relation gets tied up in knots. The large budget deficits and the trade deficit (etc.) were criticized in themselves not because they had necessarily anything to do with "Trickle-down economics". Indeed, some people who did believe in trickle-down economics (even if they didn't necessarily use that term) were critical of the deficits and the "trickle-down" philosophical criticism didn't necessarily refer to the deficits. My paragraph is probably even less clear than the one I'm criticizing but I hope you grasp what I'm trying to say :) Haukur 23:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think you are oversimplifying the causes of the S&L crisis. See savings and loan crisis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brian Pearson (talk • contribs) 15:13, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
- Sorry, forgot to sign my name. Brian Pearson 17:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think you have indeed made improvements but I still see some problems. I'm especially concerned with this sentence: "The policies were derided by some as "Trickle-down economics," due to the facts that the combination of significant tax cuts and a massive increase in Cold War related defense spending caused large budget deficits, the U.S. trade deficit expansion, and contributed to the Savings and Loan crisis, as well as the stock market crash of 1987 (known as "Black Monday")." First of all "derided by some" is not great writing but I'd be willing to let that slide. I think the major problem is that you're trying to condense too much into a single sentence and the causal relation gets tied up in knots. The large budget deficits and the trade deficit (etc.) were criticized in themselves not because they had necessarily anything to do with "Trickle-down economics". Indeed, some people who did believe in trickle-down economics (even if they didn't necessarily use that term) were critical of the deficits and the "trickle-down" philosophical criticism didn't necessarily refer to the deficits. My paragraph is probably even less clear than the one I'm criticizing but I hope you grasp what I'm trying to say :) Haukur 23:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Does the section sound more nuetral now, or am I missing the point? Happyme22 23:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Regan quote isn't bad but I think it's weird to omit the juiciest part of it: "From first day to last at Treasury, I was flying by the seat of my pants." Have you read The Triumph of Politics, by the way? I strongly recommend it. I couldn't help but feel sympathy for Stockman, a somewhat naive ideologue who gets stuck in a world of compromising congressmen, "lemon socialism" and public relations. Haukur 23:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- We originally had a quote criticizing Reagan himself by David Stockman, but chose, by consensus,to replace it with one by Don Regan, fmr. Chief of Staff and Sec. of the Treasury, for the quote by him seemed to focus more on Ronald Reagan himself, and that's what we were aiming for. Happyme22 22:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose per above criticisms. -- CJ Marsicano 18:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- Weak oppose - While this is a great article, and I felt it deserved a GA pass, it needs some work for FA status. After just a quick read through I noticed the ""Reaganomics" and the economy" section needs a thorough copyediting. Chupper 03:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
So there's some of the opposition to the page, taken from Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ronald Reagan/archive6. In fact, out of the four (4) oppositions, three (3) were because of the Reaganomics section, and the last one was not a legitimate reason for opposing the article.
I would like to get opinions on what should/can be changed, what should stay, and wording of the section. There's already two other full articles on Reaganomics and the Economy of the United States, so this section can be "shrunk." Any thoughts/suggestions on what to do or how to start it? Best, Happyme22 17:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- Argh. I would really love to support this article... but the criticisms of the economic sections are very well framed and definitely have merit. How much time does the article have left in FAC? Did you get some editors from Wikipedia:WikiProject Business and Economics and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Economics to review that section at some point in the past?
- I just made one change which deleted (commented out) some referenced material, because Haukur is correct: "...the major problem is that you're trying to condense too much into a single sentence and the causal relation gets tied up in knots." The stuff about deficits etc. needs to be reinserted, but in an appropriate manner. I hope I have time to finish it tonight, but... --Ling.Nut 03:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, ok, I think what your doing is helpful, so I won't butt-in until your finished. The article has onlny been in FAC for two days. Happyme22 03:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Ronald Wilson Reagan, GCB?
Is that his proper title? -MichiganCharms 01:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that in the United Kingdom it is, but I don't know about the United States. Or is it the same for the entire world? He was awarded the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath by Queen Elizabeth II in 1989, but I don't know. None of the other Encyclopedias have his name written that way. Best, Happyme22 03:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that even if Reagan was entitled to use the postnominal letters GCB for his honorary knighthood, they should not appear in the lead section of this article, but should be referred to only in the "honors" section. Reagan was an American citizen and did not use "GCB" normally, nor was he referred to with the GCB designation in the American media. See also my past comments regarding Bill Clinton and his honors from the Order of Logohu. [1] --Metropolitan90 18:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think that's fine, but look at Bob Hope. Although he was born in England, he spent the great majority of his life in America, yet his post-nominal letters appear in the lead as his universal proper title. I don't care if is reads Ronald Wilson Reagan, GCB or not, but if that's his proper title than it should go there. Happyme22 20:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that even if Reagan was entitled to use the postnominal letters GCB for his honorary knighthood, they should not appear in the lead section of this article, but should be referred to only in the "honors" section. Reagan was an American citizen and did not use "GCB" normally, nor was he referred to with the GCB designation in the American media. See also my past comments regarding Bill Clinton and his honors from the Order of Logohu. [1] --Metropolitan90 18:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Wrote most of his own speeches
I think this is important: Reagan had speechwriters in the White House, but for most of his public career he wrote his own speeches, laboring diligently and daily upon his prose. - Rollyson, Carl E. 2006. American Biography. iUniverse. 197 , but I can't find a section to put it in. Where should it go? Operation Spooner 03:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would put maybe a breif sentence or two in the "Early political career" section, saying how he started writing his own speeches, a pratice that continued into the White House. Even if he didn't write a speech, he usually looked over/edited it. That's what I'd do, and please ask me for help if it's needed. Best, Happyme22 07:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. That's where I put it in the first place but Happyme22 removed it with the excuse that it was "random." I'll try again. Operation Spooner 21:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
"Controversial"
What's with the POV edits taking out the word "controversial"? I don't want to think that anyone is trying to push their opinion in bad faith, but this is frankly absurd. The word controversial takes no sides, but makes a simple statement about prevailing conditions. I fully intend to restore it unless someone can make a sensible argument why it's biased to state an undisputed fact. Wercloud 22:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Factual or not, it isn't appropriate for the first sentence of the first paragraph in this article. What amount of controversy warrants adding this word to an article? If I find my state's governor to be controversial, should I add it to his bio? Should I go change George W. Bush to read "George W. Bush is the 43rd and controversial president of the United States?". This is a clear problem with WP:NPOV, and should not be included. See undue weight clause of NPOV for starters. - auburnpilot talk 22:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Point 1: A consensus exists that Ronald Reagan was a controversial president, ergo warranting the descriptor in front of the introduction to him as a president. Point 2: If you wish to add "controversial" to a president, you should say "...was the controversial nth president," not "...was the nth and controversial president." This is a simple grammar issue. Point 3: Where exactly is the undue weight in the statement of a completely neutral fact? The most rigorous standards even of journalism, never mind encyclopedias, permit "controversial" where it is an accurate description. To deny that controversy was a central and defining characteristic of the Reagan presidency borders on censorship of history, and clearly violates NPOV. Wercloud 23:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree the "controversial" is out of place here. The controlling policy is clearly WP:NPOV undue weight. Reagan was clearly controversial to some folks, but he was also the most popular President of the last forty years.--Paul 23:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- He was not controversial to "some folks," he was controversial period. This is not in dispute. To deliberately omit such an overwhelmingly significant fact on a political basis is contrary to NPOV. Wercloud 23:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's not a "political basis" but a policy one. Reagan is not notable because he is/was controversial, he's notable because he was President. To qualify that with "controversial" is undue weight and against policy. - auburnpilot talk 23:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- This sounds like a pretty thin POV rationalization. He was notable as a president because of the pervasive controversies of his presidency, and omitting that fact is non-neutral. Wercloud 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- The question is whether or not, in fact, Reagan was "controversial" - and the answer is an unequivocal "yes" - this is a fact, not an opinion. It is clear POV to leave it out. Whether or not it belongs in the lead is a matter (ironically) of opinion. :) In any case, a statement that Reagan was - and remains - a controversial president absolutely belongs in the article, and certainly somewhere in the lead. It's one of the most important facts of his political career. As far as Reagan's popularity is concerned, NO scientific, non-partisan poll in the last forty years has Reagan as the most popular President, of those - or any other - decade. The highest approval rating Reagan ever recorded by Gallup (used not only for highest quality but for longevity and consistency, the hallmarks of this kind of question) was 68% - heck, Bill Clinton managed to top that by three points! Info999 23:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, but that doesn't make it any more appropriate to change this article to read "Ronald Wilson Reagan (February 6, 1911 – June 5, 2004) was the controversial 40th President of the United States". If backed up by reliable sources, a sentence which states the controversial nature of this president in wording similar to that of the sources would meet NPOV. It's all about the sources and presentation of the fact. We cannot flat out call Reagan controversial, but we can present the fact that some people see him that way. - auburnpilot talk 23:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- That significant proportions see him that way is the definition of controversial, and stipulating it as an opinion is logically ridiculous. Wercloud 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then I'm afraid Wikipedia isn't for you. We do not confirm opinions or state them as fact, but we can report that such opinions exist. That's the very basis of this project. - auburnpilot talk 00:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- The body of the article confirms the fact that Reagan's presidency was controversial, and the POV of his supporters is not a valid basis for calling that fact an opinion. That they may find it troubling is not a premise on which to dispute the factuality, neutrality, or significance of a statement. You have not addressed the statements made in support of noting controversy, but rather have just continued to assert without basis that a fact is an opinion or unduly weighted because a given POV finds it inconvenient. Continuing to prevent inclusion of "controversial" would blatantly bias the article in service to pro-Reagan POV. Wercloud 00:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is the key point. It does not matter whether or not I consider Reagan controversial. He was a controversial president by objective standards. As someone below has pointed out, FDR is not considered a controversial president, Reagan is. It does not belong in the first sentence, but it does belong in the introduction. Image protection is getting in the way of editing. Wikipediatoperfection 18:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is turning the meaning of Neutral Point of View on its head. "Ronald Wilson Reagan (February 6, 1911 – June 5, 2004) was the 40th President of the United States" is clearly a statement of fact without any point of view. "Ronald Wilson Reagan (February 6, 1911 – June 5, 2004) was the controversial 40th President of the United States" is a statement of fact WITH a point of view. I would think that anyone could see this, unless they are blinded by ideology. The important fact is that Reagan was President. Both sides agree on that. "Controversial" is POV pushing, and does not belong in the lead OR the body of the article as it is a judgement, which the reader can draw for him/herself given facts in the body of the article. --Paul 02:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Then you are insisting that the word "controversial," and all other adjectives not in quote form, be expunged entirely from every single article in Wikipedia? How about the word "prominent" in the lead, describing his early political career? Or describing him as a "New Deal Democrat" when the reader might instead be told that he was a Democrat and infer his specific views from his statements and actions? How about the sentence calling his policies "fiscally expansive"? The current article is rife with terms that don't fit your standard, so either you are proposing a radical overhaul of virtually every Wikipedia article or you should change your mind about "controversial." Wercloud 03:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with you, I don't see the point of using "prominent" in describing his early New Deal leanings. Reagan was certainly not a prominent New Dealer. The rest of your arguments are arguing reductio ad absurdum as I suspect you well know. --Paul 15:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree stauchly with AuburnPilot and Paul. By adding the word "controversial" to Ronald Reagan's page, it makes sense that it must also be added to Jimmy Carter's (which it's not), Gerald Ford's (wich it is not), FDR's (which it is not), right? WRONG...Do you get the point? It's definetly POV to say that. Happyme22 03:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem with your examples, of course, is that Carter Ford and FDR were NOT in fact "controversial" presidents! Ford's was probably the LEAST controversial of any presidency (the loud but brief pardon issue notwithstanding). Carter was certainly unpopular (though not nearly as unpopular as the current occupant of the office) but was not controversial. FDR? Controversial? In what way? FDR had his critics, especially on the New Deal, but his presidency was not "controversial." Answer this question for any particular president: was "controversy" a hallmark of their presidency? Were many (if not most) of their proposals, decisions and opinions deemed "controversial" by the people, the press, the punditry, the experts, of the time? The answer, for Reagan, is clearly "yes." It is the single most important description of his presidency - far more important (and accurate) than "popular." Once again, however, protection of a person's "image" is getting in the way of properly following wiki guidelines. What else is new?Info999 12:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Whether it's added to any other president's page would depend on the facts of that president, and has no bearing on this one. I have no objection where such is factually accurate. By this point the claim that "controversial" is POV has been not only debunked, but shown to be an argument in favor of POV itself. One has to take a position against all unquoted adjectives to legitimately object to "controversial," which is against the clear and unambiguous consensus of the Wikipedia community as exhibited by the vast majority of articles, including Featured ones. Wercloud 04:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry. The non POV-ness of using "controversial" here has not been debunked, nor is obvious that an aversion to its use in the lead is pushing a POV. Repeating your position and stating that you are correct while people who disagree are incorrect, does not really advance your argument.--Paul 15:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Happyme22 19:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- I made a point-by-point summary of my rebuttals on this page earlier, but I guess it didn't show up (ahem). Can't find it in the history either, so I guess I'm missing something about the way this page functions. The fact remains I've thoroughly addressed every point made by opponents while they've ignored every point I've made and continued to beg the question. Wercloud 05:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Failed verification
I removed the failed verification tag added by Sandy, per this paragraph in the source in question:
"As a result of the investigation, many key figures were arrested and convicted in relation to the scandal. Among those convicted were Robert McFarlane, Oliver North, and John Poindexter. However, North and Poindexter's convictions were overturned on appeal, and in 1992, President George H.W. Bush pardoned 6 Iran-Contra figures, including Caspar Weinberger and Robert McFarlane."
IvoShandor 09:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- And I just changed the sentence to read nine, though I suspect that the source isn't entirely as comprehensive as it could be, not sure, I will consult some books I have around here once I finish unpacking my library. : ) IvoShandor 09:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- And a re-read, make that eight. Oops. Going in for another small edit. IvoShandor 09:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Right, original research (8, 9, 10). Sources I've found say 11. Please source the text to a reliable source rather than doing the math ourselves. I found much too much sloppiness of that sort in this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Um simple math isn't OR, where did you get that idea? IvoShandor 09:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have other sources? More comprehensive ones? I would much prefer to see more academic stuff for this article. IvoShandor 09:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am just going to remove the statement, if the source's reliability is in question then we shouldn't use it. IvoShandor 09:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- After 3 edit conflicts, right, that's the conclusion. I found numbers as high as 11, it appears to depend on how you count the pardons and overturned on appeal, that source doesn't pretend to give a total, it looks like someone did the math (OR). Unless we have a definitive source that says how many, we shouldn't say how many. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am just going to remove the statement, if the source's reliability is in question then we shouldn't use it. IvoShandor 09:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Right, original research (8, 9, 10). Sources I've found say 11. Please source the text to a reliable source rather than doing the math ourselves. I found much too much sloppiness of that sort in this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- And a re-read, make that eight. Oops. Going in for another small edit. IvoShandor 09:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
What I found in my editing of this article is that a lot of uncited text was apparently pulled from other Wiki articles, and it's not always correct. The incorrect name of the church, for example, has now been mirrored all over the internet because of wiki's error. And the number of people at the funeral ... and so on. That's why we insist on citations for all hard data at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry about the edit conflicts, but I think there's something around here somewhere, I can't find it but I read it, specifically states that simple math is not OR. At least I read it somewhere around here. That aside, I am for not including the statement based upon the reliability of the source. IvoShandor 09:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- But that article doesn't even pretend to list them all, so you can't even do the math from it. And, it doesn't even discuss how it's counting, as some others I found did. I'm not sure what the number is or how it's defined; we need a better source, or to drop it (as you have). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry about the edit conflicts, but I think there's something around here somewhere, I can't find it but I read it, specifically states that simple math is not OR. At least I read it somewhere around here. That aside, I am for not including the statement based upon the reliability of the source. IvoShandor 09:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, its hidden for now, I have a couple peer reviewed books on Reagan, I will see what they say, but I have to dig them out of a huge pile of books that haven't really been unpacked since I just moved. IvoShandor 09:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think the article can scrape by without that one sentence in the meantime :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)Absolutely. We can clarify the wording if we need to as well, there were X convictions, X were pardoned blah blah blah, X were overturned on appeal blah blah blah, etc etc. And so on and so forth. Etc. IvoShandor 10:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
General Electric Theater
It looks like Reagan was host until the end, but there was controversy which caused General Electric to pull the plug on the show... General Electric Theater left the air in 1962 in a welter of controversy surrounding the U.S. Justice Department's anti-trust investigation of MCA and the Screen Actors Guild talent waivers granted to MCA -Revue. The hint of scandal discounted Reagan's value as company spokesman and program host. As SAG president in the 1950s Reagan had, after all, signed the waivers, and later benefited from the arrangement as a General Electric Theater program producer himself. The suggestion of impropriety fueled Reagan's increasingly anti-government demeanor on tour, and his insistence upon producing and starring in episodes combating Communist subversion in the final season of General Electric Theater. Museum of Broadcast Communications: General Electric Theater--Paul 14:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Legacy section
This text isn't verified by the source given:
- Critics argue that his economic policies caused huge budget deficits, tripling the United States national debt. [2]
- The critic mentioned -- Frank Shostak -- is a proponent of the gold standard. How is that defensible? Brian Pearson 02:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I tried to Google up a source, and besides blogs, only found this: [3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- I came to my senses and found a book source: page 128 of Lou Cannon's book Ronald Reagan: The Presidential Portfolio. Happyme22 03:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for a very interesting article, Sandy. Brian Pearson 02:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't speak Economics; was it really good? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I thought it was, though I'm not an economist. The man seemed to write 'plain talk' about a something I'd never heard, before, other than "the poor got poorer and the rich got richer" (among other things). I posted the link in morphh's talk page to get his take on it. He probably won't respond until tomorrow, though. Brian Pearson 03:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't speak Economics; was it really good? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe this Supply-Side Tax Cuts and the Truth about the Reagan Economic Record? -- Ling.Nut 02:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hey I hate to be Jonny Raincloud here, but Cato is somewhat biased according to some, although I happen to not have an opinion on it either way. What exactly is this for Brian Pearson? I seem to be "out of the loop," but that's ok! And does it have to do with President Reagan? Happyme22 04:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- It seems to support the one posted by SandyGeargia, which also is setting the Reagan record straight. I'd be willing to bet that an opposition POV wouldn't be able to successfully debate the issue, except through the media. I just happened to be in the neighborhood, Happyme22, and thought I'd comment -- one thing led to another. :) Brian Pearson 01:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Both CATO and National Review (esp NRO) are completely biased sources and violate wiki's POV rules. While there is debate over exactly how Reagan's policies affected the economy, there is no debate over the historical fact that Reagan signed budget after budget that was negatively unbalanced, and had to borrow in order to make up the difference - thereby increasing the national debt by a greater amount than at any other time in US history. These are facts. It is also not under debate that the out of control national debt had a negative effect on the US economy, especially in the years after Reagan left office. These are facts, not opinions; both the CATO and NR articles are full of opinions, not facts, and should not be used as sources to verify otherwise insupportable claims. Info999 02:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think a more complete picture would include certain other factors, assuming agreeable cites are found. For example, if it is true that the drop in inflation had an impact, it should be included. Likewise, what were the effects of Paul Volker's actions? or those of Alan Greenspan? If it is true that wages (not just dollars and cents per hour) actually increased via more perks. If a man today says he makes $8.50, that's not accurate, because he isn't including matching 401k benefits, matching insurance, and the like. This was mentioned in one of the previous links. Whether or not they are biased is one thing, but do they report facts which are verifiable through other acceptable cites? Just a thought. Brian Pearson 03:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hey I hate to be Jonny Raincloud here, but Cato is somewhat biased according to some, although I happen to not have an opinion on it either way. What exactly is this for Brian Pearson? I seem to be "out of the loop," but that's ok! And does it have to do with President Reagan? Happyme22 04:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe this Supply-Side Tax Cuts and the Truth about the Reagan Economic Record? -- Ling.Nut 02:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
(undent)Wikipedia's NPOV rules aren't exactly as they seem to be represented in this thread.. take some time to carefully read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Thanks & later! --Ling.Nut 02:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Would you agree that even allegedly biased sources could have legitimate points which may be reflected in legitimate sources? Brian Pearson 01:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC) Brian Pearson 01:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- No. A biased source is one who presents items - both opinions and verifiable facts - in such a selective and manipulative manner that there is only one possible conclusion to be drawn: that their point of view must be correct. There is a difference between a biased source and a conflict of interest source; the "source" that is offered for the "Reagan saved 77 lives" is only Reagan himself - there is a conflict of interest in that source, because it's him, and it isn't neutral. However, for this article, CATO, AEI, Hoover - conservative/libertarian think tanks - have a vested interest in promoting their agendas, which are directly linked to their and their benefactor's economic interests, and are not "academic" in any way. They are biased as "sources" for controversial and/or contested claims that aren't generally accepted facts.
- Moreover, you're now not only running afoul of NPOV, you're doing something far "worse" in wikiland - you're doing original research, by compiling a brief in favor of the "Reagan legacy", complete with independent facts, figures, and analysis. Either way, it seems that many here are just promoting the "Reagan Legacy Agenda," instead of creating a clean, simple article of relevant facts.Info999 02:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I thought I was suggesting there may be acceptable links which back up points not included in the article. This is original research? Brian Pearson 03:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Lots of stretching and overextending of Wiki policies going 'round here. Info, do you have a source you'd like to see reflected? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't have specific sources in mind, I was speaking hypothetically. I began by wondering if a person can see a point made by a biased site, and find agreeably unbiased sources for the aforesaid point. I've found myself with my foot in hot water where I'm unsure if I've been understood. I'd appreciate your input. Would that be "independent research"? If so, I may need to look up a few definitions and get my own head straight. Brian Pearson 03:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The 'Legacy' section is totally biased and sickening to any decent person. It is a disgrace to Wikipedia but there is a clique of 4 or 5 Reaganites here who delete any criticism of Reagan, like 300,000 dead in Central America as a direct result of his policies. SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 12:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I 'spose Ortega et al. had nothing to do with that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Peer Review/ Featured Article
I am extremely confused. I added a peer review tag to the discussion page because there is significant disagreement over NPOV/POV in this article. It has been removed because you apparently can't have both a nomination for featured article and a peer review going on at the same time? Can featured articles not be peer reviewed? Wikipedia articles are an on going process, it would seem that a peer review could happen whenever someone requests a peer review as part of that on going process? What is the deal here? Wikipediatoperfection 19:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's in the instructions at both WP:FAC and WP:PR; it's a waste of reviewers time to be reviewing in two places at once. Review is currently at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, that makes sense. Wikipediatoperfection 19:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
AIDs stuff
I think a new user incorrectly added the following to the Lead. It seems well-sourced, so it shouldn't have been purged completely but instead ported over to here. It should be integrated into the article.
- Reagan's administration was criticized for its slow response to the HIV-AIDS epidemic, until the illness of movie star and national icon Rock Hudson became public news in July 1985, by which time over 10,000 Americans had been diagnosed with AIDS, and over 6,000 had died.[1]
- Arcayne (cast a spell) 00:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Problems with the Lead
- From my understanding of Lead, it is supposed to be an overview of the entire article, not a party hack speech dedication. It needs re-writing, and badly. To begin with, citations are NOT used in the Lead, as per practically every rule that WP has. Look at some FA BLPs - they don't use cites, and nothing in the Lead should be so striking as to require one, specifically:
- "Reagan advocated less government regulation of the economy, spoke against the welfare state, and argued that people should be allowed to keep most of what they earned.[1]"
- In other words, the dude is a Rebublican. Yeah, we get it. Save it for the article, move on.
- Secondly,
- "He was able to institute some of this by introducing fiscally-expansive economic policies, dubbed "Reaganomics." "
- I don't see this polcy discussion occrurring in the article in proportion to the time being devoted to it in the Lead.
- I could go on, but frankly, I'd like to finish the post before dawn. the second and third paragraphs need serious revision and/or trimming. Clearly, the article suffers from a conservative to much in love with the subject to step back and see some of the warts. There is no coverage of the Iran-Contra Affair (which, if not for Poindexter falling on his sword, would have seen a disgraced Reagan doing prison time). There is nothing about the Lead that says, 'this is a short summary of the article'. It's a puff-piece as seen through the rose-colored glasses of revisionist history, and I for one won't have it. It isn't neutral. And if you think I am tough, pray to the Lord Jeebus that a pack of ultra Liberals don't find this article and trim it to the bone.
- The point is: trim the article's Lead, or it will be trimmed harshly by others not as in love with Reagan. Capiscé? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- The first thing you quoted above is important. That's what was revolutionary about him. Prior to him people weren't advocating small government, but big government, more welfare, and more taxes. It belongs in the lead. Operation Spooner 03:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, it really doesn't. Please read WP:LEAD, and you'll see what I am talking about. The stuff you talked about need to be in the body of the article, and touched on in the Lead. It gives an overview of the subject's life. Not what they espoused. Reagan wasn't a collection of party lines. He was a man. Treat him as such. When you pedestal him like that, you are begging someone to send him crashing down.
- And, for the good of our working relationship, stop talking about the guy as if hw were the returned Messiah. He wasn't. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- The first thing you quoted above is important. That's what was revolutionary about him. Prior to him people weren't advocating small government, but big government, more welfare, and more taxes. It belongs in the lead. Operation Spooner 03:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- What a person advocates for most of his political career is an important part of his life. It's not putting him on a pedestal to say that he advocate deregulation, less forced welfare, and less taxation. It's just a matter of important fact. It's what he's known for. Operation Spooner 03:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think this is an absolutely terrible lead, but I do have to agree that it reads a little like one-sided. It mentions how he argued for a smaller government, but fails to mention such things as that the size of the federal government actually increased during his tenure or the record budget deficits his government incurred. Furthermore, I find phrases such as "fiscally-expansive economic policies" to be overly complicated; perhaps I'm just a moron, but I am unsure of the exact meaning of this phrase.--Rise Above The Vile 03:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- From WP:LEAD:
- "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. "
- I am not saying don't mention the dude's accomplishments, and I am not going to dissemble the statments about what he "advocated for most of his political career" - that is for a forum where people can flog themselves frothy over that bs minutae. We don't do that here, and partisan editing is met with rather stringent editing.
- . I am saying that the Lead is an overview of the subject. Currently, the stuff about policy takes up 2/3's of the Lead, and that is wholly unacceptable. I am not debating Reagan's merits as a politician. I am saying that WP policies and MOS formats say it has to be contructed differently than it is now. In no uncertain terms, I am telling you that the Lead is going to have to change for the better. Now, you can do it, or I can, or we can - but it is going to get done. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)RAB, you aren't a moron; those terms are confabulations - without any real meaning. That is one of the many, many things that will be going. The Lead is an overview, not a peacocking preamble. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Point taken. He was not able to fully implement his laissez-faire capitalist vision. I just noted that it is arguable to what extent he was able to implement his ideals. Operation Spooner 04:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Good to know that some of this partisan love can be set aside for the good of the article. :) Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I propose four paragraphs. If e end up needing more, we can consider it. The first addresses his early life, film career and family life. The second deals with his governorship and first Presidency. The third deals with his second tern in office. The fourth deals with his post-Presidency, death and legacy (this last part being brief to the point of being skeletal).
- In addition, the section on religious beliefs needs to be merged with either his early life or family, or spread through the other sections as anecdotal info.
- There is a fair bit of peacocking going on (though not nearly as bad as some other articles). If we can paraphrase general ideas, separating them from direct quotations. I think that would improve the article vastly. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Four paragraphs seems reasonable, though I would group them differently. It seems more logical to me to have both terms of his presidency grouped into one paragraph rather than separated. Perhaps early and family life as the first paragraph, film career and governorship as the second, presidency as the third and legacy as the fourth? As for the legacy paragraph, I don't think we need to make it "skeletal;" briefly but thoroughly explain his legacy.--Rise Above the Vile 15:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- So long as it stays encyclopedic and not a puff-piece by the Reagan Fan Foundation, then there shouldn't be a problem. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I guess that's a good idea. I don't know if I can work on it now, but I will when I get the chance, probably in the next few days, so please don't make any drastic changes. Happyme22 16:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- So long as it stays encyclopedic and not a puff-piece by the Reagan Fan Foundation, then there shouldn't be a problem. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Four paragraphs seems reasonable, though I would group them differently. It seems more logical to me to have both terms of his presidency grouped into one paragraph rather than separated. Perhaps early and family life as the first paragraph, film career and governorship as the second, presidency as the third and legacy as the fourth? As for the legacy paragraph, I don't think we need to make it "skeletal;" briefly but thoroughly explain his legacy.--Rise Above the Vile 15:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure where the notion that leads don't need to be cited crept in, but it's incorrect. See WP:LEAD#Citations_in_the_lead_section. Generally, summarizing statements in the lead need not be cited, but data, quotes, anything surprising or likely to be challenged is cited, exactly as in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The phrase "Despite his rejection of détente, he negotiated with Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev to shrink both countries' nuclear arsenals and help bring a peaceful end to the Cold War." is disputed. Many historians credit mainly internal pressures within the Soviet Union and assign not more than marginal credit to any Reagan policies.
http://hnn.us/articles/5569.html
http://hnn.us/articles/2732.html
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/5644.html
http://hnn.us/articles/1797.html
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040628/schell
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1970752,00.html
Gmb92 05:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Another issue with the Lead section: "He was one of America's most popular presidents". What is this based on? His average approval rating in office was about 57% (about the same as Clinton) - no doubt better than average but not unusually high. Nearly 40% disapproved on average. Another poll that asked respondent to choose the best president ranked him 2nd. That doesn't say much considering only 16% chose him. It says nothing about the other 84%. 13% chose Clinton in the same poll. Furthermore, it could be argued that most Americans tend to pick presidents who they know a lot about, which are mainly more recent ones. I think we should remove this recently-added phrase. The Legacy section covers the polls. Gmb92 06:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Okay. I think a lot of people are thrown by the dewy-eyed recollections of the older farts, who recall how the Republican Party nearly crumbled after Nixon's Grand Crazy Train drove off a cliff. Ford was a good guy, but simply didn't have the charisma to pull the party back together, and while Carter was in fact one of our more moral Presidents, he didn't know how Washington (and national politics) functioned, and failed utterly. Reagan truly revitalized the Party that was clearly nearing its deathbed. Gotta give the Gip props for that. Republican parents tell their little Republican-ettes about how Ronnie saved us from communism and whatnot, and all of the sudden, he's the Biggest Pimp on the Block. He gets things named after him because he was all about championing Big Business (guess who pays for those lobbying efforts to rename airports and the like?). Its no wonder folk get confused.
- Oops, did I leave my Rant on? Sorry. ;) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Iran Contra
Here's an example where an edit is made supposedly to make the article shorter, but in fact it ends up protecting the image of the subject. It hasn't been alleged that Reagan signed the finding; it is a fact that he did. It's also a fact that he signed it after the arms sales and hostage releases had already begun. It's a further fact that Reagan's NS advisor destroyed the finding the next year because he felt it would be embarrassing to Reagan (kind of ironic here, no?); that last one should be left for the IC article, though. It's been corrected. Info999 21:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Is this at some time following the Tower Commission that these facts were verified? Brian Pearson 02:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes - the Walsh Independent Counsel report was much more thorough, took longer to investigate and create, and wasn't made up of Reagan-hand-picked "safe" men. The Tower Commission did its work in less than three months from appointment to publication.
- Incidentally, this is from a timeline of the events of Reagan's life; it includes good details about Iran Contra. I'm not using it as a "source" so all the POV pushers can relax (esp. those from Georgia). However, it's interesting that this particular paragraph - which is factual and neutral - is the kind of thing we should see in this wiki article, but don't, because things get "cleansed":
- February 2: Reagan testifies to the Tower Board for a second time. His testimony is inconsistent and confused. The Board pointed out Reagan hadn’t known about August shipment of anti-tank missiles, but Reagan had said he DID know. When asked for an explanation, Reagan picked up a briefing memo he had been provided and read aloud: "If the question comes up at the Tower Board meeting, you might want to say that you were surprised."
- Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, the Tower Report was not the last - nor most accurate and complete - word on Iran Contra. And the Walsh Report has to be the last word, since two of the main participants were pardoned before - against all propriety and tradition - they came to trial (when a lot more of the facts would have come out, including (potentially) those incriminating to the one who granted the pardons...seems I've heard that happening again recently, no?). Info999 13:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Fine Info, my applogies, but I really truly am sorry, ok? I should know by now that you claim POV on all of my edits. I thought I was removing redundancy because you added so much more that the article size went from 108 to 111, so I was trying shorten things that didn't pertain to Ronald Reagan himself. Again, I'm sorry!!!! Happyme22 03:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Every single time, your "mistakes" or your "re-wording for clarity" or your "cleanup" remove all negative facts and connotations and whitewash the issue. Repeated apologies after Reagan smells better in the article doesn't work anymore. You've lost the presumption of innocence in my book. Info999 13:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, to tell you the truth, I don't really care. Happyme22 18:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
FEATURED ARTICLE!!!
Well, we've done it! Ronald Reagan is finally a featured article!!!! Happyme22 21:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Congratulations Happy, and all that worked on this article. This is a tough one because of how much emotion both sides have related to this man. Good work on a great article. : )IvoShandor 21:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Congratulations. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 00:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Problem with Governor of CA section
This section contains hardly any criticism of Reagan; it practically reads like an advertisement. He was a very controversial governor, having closed down mental hospitals and other services for the homeless, in addition to having instituted a controversial stance towards the protests of the era. Now, his confrontation with the protesters is duly mentioned, but there is absolutely nothing about the effects of his so-called campaign to "send the welfare bums back to work," a campaign which continues to have lasting effects today (disastrous effects, if you ask me).
I know the article needs to be kept to a short length, and his governorship of California is relatively unimportant compared to his presidency, but this is a little ridiculous. A sentence or two about the effects of his anti-"bum" campaign would probably suffice. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 01:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I had the idea more could be said about a number of things. I suppose an encyclopedia article shouldn't be a book. Just the same, I've seen several articles that are larger than this one. BTW, I noticed that someone had suggested splitting the article, but I have no idea how that could be accomplished. Brian Pearson 01:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I actually think the length of the article is fine. And now that I realize that there is no separate article for his governorship, the section could definitely use a lot of expansion. Any thoughts? -- Cielomobile talk / contribs
- Make a seperate article for his governship. The length of the governorship section dosn't need to be much longer, for it's condensed. I don't remmeber a lot of criticism of him during those years, but if there was please add (but cite - we're a FA now!). I say make a new article: Governorship of Ronald Reagan. Happyme22 04:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- That would be pretty much unprecedented, and completely unnecessary. Take a look at long-serving recent governors, such as Tommy Thompson, Michael Dukakis, Howard Dean (and even not-so-recent, like New York's longest-serving governor George Clinton), and you'll see that none of them have separate articles for their gubernatorial years. Even presidents who were formerly governors don't have separate articles for their time as governor. And by the way, Reagan was arguably the most controversial governor California had up until that time, and certainly one of the most controversial in the state's history, even counting the years since he left office. If one doesn't know that about Reagan, one doesn't know Reagan (how about May '70, UC Berkeley, just to name a single example?). No separate article is warranted in my opinion, as well as considering how other governors/presidents are treated. Info999 23:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's a good point. What do you think we should do? Happyme22 00:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- That would be pretty much unprecedented, and completely unnecessary. Take a look at long-serving recent governors, such as Tommy Thompson, Michael Dukakis, Howard Dean (and even not-so-recent, like New York's longest-serving governor George Clinton), and you'll see that none of them have separate articles for their gubernatorial years. Even presidents who were formerly governors don't have separate articles for their time as governor. And by the way, Reagan was arguably the most controversial governor California had up until that time, and certainly one of the most controversial in the state's history, even counting the years since he left office. If one doesn't know that about Reagan, one doesn't know Reagan (how about May '70, UC Berkeley, just to name a single example?). No separate article is warranted in my opinion, as well as considering how other governors/presidents are treated. Info999 23:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Make a seperate article for his governship. The length of the governorship section dosn't need to be much longer, for it's condensed. I don't remmeber a lot of criticism of him during those years, but if there was please add (but cite - we're a FA now!). I say make a new article: Governorship of Ronald Reagan. Happyme22 04:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I actually think the length of the article is fine. And now that I realize that there is no separate article for his governorship, the section could definitely use a lot of expansion. Any thoughts? -- Cielomobile talk / contribs
- (outdent) I think we should find two reliable and verifiable (and noteworthy) pro and con summaries of Reagan's time as governor and run with that. This way, it's cited and balanced. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Seems like a good idea. As soon as JSTOR lets me log in...2-user limit, curse you. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 21:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Lead
I've reworked the Lead, leaving out all the specific policies and views that Reagan or his party championed, as specifics are not supposed to be in the Lead, but rather to be articulated within the body of the article (or, in the case of Reaganomics, covered in another article of its own). I think that was what bothered me the most about the Lead. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 10:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- I like it, however I think the infobox should read "Ronald Wilson Reagan" per Gerald Ford, another FA (his common name wasn't Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr., but it reads like almost all other articles); Jimmy Carter, another president of the United States known not as James Earl Carter, Jr.; George Herbert Walker Bush - the same thing. William Jefferson Clinton; are you going to tell me most people knew him (or know him) as William Jefferson? George Walker Bush is in the infobox on his article too; Dwight David Eisenhower; John Fitzgerald Kennedy; Lyndon Baines Johnson; Richard Milhous Nixon - all the articles on recent presidents have his middle name in the infobox, so why should Reagan be any different? To make Reagan's like all the other presidents, especially since this one is at a higher standard (being a FA), we should use his middle name. Even people who aren't presidents use their middle names on Wiki; look at Merv Griffin, Alberto Gonzales, and even Nancy Reagan to name the first three that came to me! Although people know him better as "Ronald Reagan" this is an encyclopedia and his middle name should be in the infobox. Best, Happyme22 22:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yep, you're right. I've changed it to reflect the precedent. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Reaganomics
The article is confusing two different ideas, interchanging them inappropriately. Supply side economics is a theory that (badly condensed for purposes of discussion) argues that you can create economic growth if you provide incentives (lowering income taxes and cap gains taxes) for people to produce goods and services. This differs from demand side economics, which argues that demand can be controlled through gov't spending (I know, horrible simplistic, but we're not arguing supply vs demand here). "Trickle-down" is a perjorative term created by critics, to describe their view of the supply sider's argument: let people and businesses keep more of their income, and they will spend it producing goods and services, and the money will eventually trickle down through the classes.
This is markedly different from "voodoo economics" - a phrase most famously used by George H.W. Bush - to deride Reagan's notion that he could significantly lower taxes, significantly increase spending, and all would be well with the economy; critics, who did not see how this could work, said that it must be some sort of magic - some sort of "voodoo" economics. The article now not only conflates the two, but mischaracterizes both, to different extents.
By the way, since he was his VP and his successor, any mention of "voodoo" in the article needs to mention Bush, I should think. Info999 01:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good analysis by Info999. I was about to revert Voodoo economics for the same reason. I don't see the need to add "voodoo economics" at all, as it was something that happened in the primary, before anything was actually implemented, and thus is not a criticism of anything real. Also, adding extra pejoratives into the section, flirts with creating a trivia list of criticisms which conflicts with the proscription against giving undue weight.--Paul 02:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I see Paul's point about balance, but I think if something important to a subject's life is going to get more than just briefly mentioned, it should not be without context - and in this case, the context is not only all about how radical the ideas were, and the criticism/skepticism that greeted their introduction, but about how the most vocal critic on this subject ended up being his VP. No? Info999 03:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I rather agree with Info here. I am the one who added the voodoo economics characterization, and I think its appropriate that, if we are going to discuss the polices, thenwe have to address what people thought of those policies, pro and con. That his own VP thought of them as voodoo is notable. Were they an accurate characterization? It doesn't matter. Truth isn't the litmus test here, whereas notable, verifiable and reliable is.
- Additionally, I think this policy bi-polarity is going to re-occur where we choose to attampt and discuss the nitty-gritty of the man's policies and not the man. I mean, we have an article called Reaganomics; wouldn't the article be better off simply providinf a link to that ("for more information on Reagan's economic policies, see Reaganomics"). This would seem the best way to achieve both ends. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I see Paul's point about balance, but I think if something important to a subject's life is going to get more than just briefly mentioned, it should not be without context - and in this case, the context is not only all about how radical the ideas were, and the criticism/skepticism that greeted their introduction, but about how the most vocal critic on this subject ended up being his VP. No? Info999 03:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think the fact that H.W. Bush criticized Reagan's economic plans is at all important. The only reason anyone is interested in it, is because Reagan picked Bush as Veep. This isn't at all remarkable, it is little more than trivia. Do you suppose that LBJ didn't criticize JFK? Is this in the JFK article? Perhaps the real point here is that H.W. Bush wholeheartedly embraced Reagan's policies after he had denounced and made fun of them during the primaries. This is more of a commentary on Bush's character and wish for a revived political life than it a serious commentary on Reagan's policies.--Paul 05:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that any comparison with Kennedy and Bush are pretty much doomed to failure from the outset - different politcal environments and challenges, personalities of the main players, etc. What makes it noteworthy is that both before and after, Bush remained a noteworthy individual. Secondly, this was pretty much his main campaign point (that, and the superior foreign relations experience), so the term spread beyond just the campaign (rather unlike anything the far more capable politician LBJ had developed). Thirdly, after he was elected, he backed off the policy significantly (as noted by those too-tightly-wound sycophants at the Heritage Foundation).
- Long story short, that this economic policy was characterized by an national politician in a way that caught on within the lexicon for economics and uniquely tied to Reaganmomics makes it both noteworthy and encyclopedic. Reaganomics is even listed as part of the voodoo economics not once but twice, and not solely as applied as campaign observations by the loyal opposition. If we are going to discuss anything about the politics, we need to avoid an undue situation where we are only talking up Reagan's economic policies without pointing out the equally valid views. Again, readers don't have to agree any more as to the accuracy of these terms (any more than editors), but we are tasked with noting it as encyclopedic and verifiably connected. I think that the reverted edit should be reinstated. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- On the narrow point of Arcayne's last suggestion: the edit was reverted because it was completely inaccurate. The term voodoo economics was not applied to supply-side economics, which is what is being derided with the term "trickle-down." In the John Madden article, we can't write "John Madden was the coach of the 'Oakland Raiders,' or the 'New York Giants' " - because they're two different teams, and he wasn't coach of the Giants (broad, rushed analogy :) ). Just some wrongly conflate the two ideas does not make them the same - or even similar. I do not agree that the factual inaccuracy should be reinserted into the article - there's enough of that there already, don't you think? Info999 21:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- There's factual inaccuracy in the article? Maybe it would be better to actually point those out, rather than imply that its all some vast left-wing conspiracy. For the second time - Wikipedia doesn't require information to be accurate. It requires it to be verifiable, noteworthy and reliably sourced. Are you contending that no one called Reagaonomics voodoo economics, or referred to parts of it as trickle-down theory? You will not that I provided the wikilink to the voodoo economics article; trickle-down economics also appears to have an article. I understand your analogy, and I think you are under the impression that Reaganomics addresses only one portion of the field. It does not, as it extends into at least two different subtheories, it garnered skepticism and criticism in the form of those particular nicknames. Simply because you do not think they are accurate doesn't diminish their noteworthyness; they were both used in describing parts of Reaganomics, and so therefore need to be included as criticisms.
- The alternative is to purge the specifics of Reaganomics from the article (as I previously suggested), leaving the discussion in the Reaganomics article and offering a link to more information about it in the Reagan article. Frankly, I think that is best. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- On the narrow point of Arcayne's last suggestion: the edit was reverted because it was completely inaccurate. The term voodoo economics was not applied to supply-side economics, which is what is being derided with the term "trickle-down." In the John Madden article, we can't write "John Madden was the coach of the 'Oakland Raiders,' or the 'New York Giants' " - because they're two different teams, and he wasn't coach of the Giants (broad, rushed analogy :) ). Just some wrongly conflate the two ideas does not make them the same - or even similar. I do not agree that the factual inaccuracy should be reinserted into the article - there's enough of that there already, don't you think? Info999 21:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- First, I agree that the specifics should be purged in favor of a link to the Reaganomics article; I also think that should be the case for every single other item that is covered too deeply in the Reagan article and which has its own article! Second, I never accused anyone of "left wing" anything, much less a conspiracy. I have no idea where you got that from. Third, I have contributed to this article several times over the past few months, and much of the article was (and some of it still is) inaccurate. And I don't mean about accurate vs verifiable. But that's not the point.
- I was not attempting to wade into a wikidebate over accuracy vs verifiability. I was simply correcting an error on your part: in the edit in question, the sentence mentioned (and briefly defined) "trickle-down economics"; your edit equated that with "voodoo economics." When George HW Bush used the term "voodoo economics, it was not in reference to supply-side, or trickle-down, economics; he was referring to a completely different economic claim that Reagan had made: that he could significantly lower federal taxes while increasing federal spending with no negative effect on the economy. The numbers didn't add up, and Bush was calling him on it. Reagan's claim - the one that Bush was criticizing - was not related to the notion that supply-siders put forth, which is that cutting taxes on wealthy individuals and large corporations would provide incentives for them to save and invest, and the effects would eventually be felt by the rest of society (which earned their critics' scorn, and the pejorative "trickle-down" economics). It is incorrect to equate trickle-down with voodoo, because they deal with fundamentally different parts of Reagan's "plan." Bush didn't have a problem with supply-side per se, but he did have a problem with lowering taxes while increasing spending. And by the way, previous poster, Bush never "wholeheartedly supported" Reagan's economic policies - he went along with his rival after losing to him in order to secure a place - any place - on the national ticket.
- Finally, your claim that trickle-down and voodoo were parts of Reagan's economic plan (or Reaganomics) is correct (although technically not, since both terms technically were criticisms of the plan, not "parts" of the plan, but we'll go with it). However, I was objecting to your grammar, not the fact that both were parts of the plan. Read the reverted edit as you wanted it, and you will see that you explain supply-side, then claim that critics called supply-side both trickle down and voodoo economics - and that's not really correct. If you're trying to say that since the 1980 primaries, some people have mistakenly conflated the two terms, well, then, perhaps that belongs in the Reaganomics article, but certainly not here (if we're even keeping the section at all). Voodoo was not applied to the supply-side argument, it was applied to the "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" fact that Reagan's numbers weren't adding up, and Bush criticized him for that. That's all I was saying. Info999 04:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Fair enough, On that point of grammar usage, i stand corrected. Why don't we sidestep this sort of misunderstanding again, and purge all but the most topical of Reaganomics and include a link to the article on the subject now? I am not all the wondrous magician at that, so maybe you could work your.....voodoo? (sorry, i couldn't pass up the opportunity - lol) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I certainly don't agree with the suggestion that the section on Reaganomics be replaced by a single wikilink. Reagan's approach to economics was one of the most important policy initiatives of his Presidency. You don't understand Reagan unless you understand this, and it needs explanation in this article. Wikipedia Summary Style describes how a summary overview should be backed up by an in depth article, and this is done here. I happen to think the current version of the Reaganomics section is reasonably good at both explaining what it was and how it was criticized. It is also balanced, and certainly risks losing that balance without careful editing. It is probably a good piece of writing, if the opposing sides both dislike it. I think things in this section are best left alone, unless editors can point out obvious inaccuracies.--Paul 05:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Citations?
I am pretty sure that the info contained in these removed statements are accurate, and that they wre removed a bit too quickly. I am placingthem here, as I think citing them would be pretty easy before reinstating back intot he article:
- (from early political career section)
- "An admirer of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Reagan supported the New Deal and campaigned for Harry Truman in 1948. During this time he was a member of various liberal groups including Americans for Democratic Action. As late as 1950 he was listed as a supporter of the Senate candidacy of Helen Gahagan Douglas. He later moved rightward, supporting the presidential candidacies of Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956, and that of Richard Nixon in 1960, as a registered Democrat. "
- Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Here's a great example of POV pushing in this article. There is a lot of irrelevant fluff in the article, but this certainly is relevant: Reagan wasn't just a disinterested Democrat, he was a DEMOCRAT. No one is drawing conclusions or trying to embarrass him (you know, like, oh, I don't know, connecting the probable dots between Reagan's sudden switch - and it was sudden for someone so involved in Democratic politics - to the Republicans, to the scandal involving Reagan's SAG talent waivers for MCA in the same year), this is just relevant information for any politician who has an article in wiki, and VERY VERY relevant for someone so identified with the Republican Party! But there are POVers here who sniff out the smallest item that they feel is embarrassing or inconvenient, and just like that, it's reverted. I agree with Arcayne that it belongs in the article.Info999 04:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think we should avoid that characterization until it becomes the 500-pound gorilla in the room. Let's just find the citations for the statements, clean them up and reinsert them. The article is going to be neutral. Reagan was not the best man in the world, nor was he the worst. he made good decisions and bad ones. In short, he was human. We will portray him as such. Nobody gets to inflate the man beyond his due, and no one gets to tear him down for anything more than what he is responsible for. This is our job. This is what we do. If anyone is not on board with that, Conservapedia and Liberapedia is over there, thataways. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Info's POV-calling is so blown out of proportion. I didn't remove the phrase; an IP did because he/she saw it wasn't cited and this is a featured article. If a citation is found for it (and one probably could be), please add the content in. There's no POV here. Happyme22 20:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
removed personal attack against Happyme22 by User:Info999 --Happyme22 01:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Nicknames
As with other presidents, certain nicknames became associated with Ronald Reagan, including:
Dutch
The Gipper
Ronaldus Magnus
Ronald RayGun
In other biographical entries on Wikipedia, nicknames seem to be included in the "InfoBox"
Is there a reason that Reagan's nicknames are not featured? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.194.82.138 (talk) 05:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am guessing because most of them amount to triva. Dutch is valid as a nickname, I guess, as is The Gipper, for those who have difficulty distinguishing between movies and real life. I'be never heard of Ronaldus and the RayGun reference was used essentially by children. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 14:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Arcayne is correct. Happyme22 20:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
"I was there""
The statement about the nazi soldiers and to the Holocaust suriviors is both noteworthy and there are umpteen citations available for that rather famous gaff on the part of Reagan. At best, his remarks are an extraordinarily thoughless mistake. They should be included. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well you and I have spoken about that. Happyme22 01:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Equated deaths of Jews with deaths of Nazis
A sentence was added saying, "Reagan issued a statement that called the Nazi soldiers "victims" and equated them with the victims of the Holocaust," and was cited with http://www.buchanan.org/pma-99-1105-wallstjl.html.
Here's what the statement released by Reagan (written in the source) said:
"These [SS troops] were the villains, as we know, that conducted the persecutions and all. But there are 2,000 graves there, and most of those, the average age is about 18. I think that there's nothing wrong with visiting that cemetery where those young men are victims of Nazism also, even though they were fighting in the German uniform, drafted into service to carry out the hateful wishes of the Nazis. They were victims, just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps."
Now I could see a lot of controversy with these words; when I read this, it astonished me, but right above where the statement was written on the web page, Pat Buchanan, Director of Communications under Reagan (from whose webpage this statement was copied from), says the following:
"President Reagan never equated SS troops and camp victims. He equated the teenage boys Hitler put in uniform and sent to certain death at war's end with concentration camp victims."
So this is somewhat of a controversial sentence, and is not showing both sides. I think Reagan's choice of words was stupid, but I can't change that and history is history. President Reagan did say this so I think it should be mentioned in the article (because it is so astonishing and noteworthy), but I think Pat Buchanan, a Reagan insider who knows a lot about this incident, should be quoted as well. Maybe something like this:
"Reagan issued a statement that called the Nazi soldiers buried in that cemetery "victims" and some say equated them with victims of the Holocaust, but Pat Buchanan, Director of Communications under Reagan, argues: "President Reagan never equated SS troops and camp victims. He equated the teenage boys Hitler put in uniform and sent to certain death at war's end with concentration camp victims." In the end..." and finish the topic. Any thoughts? Happyme22 02:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The Lead
The edit war needs to end, discuss the problems and come up with a consensus, I couldn't care less since it is not really that important to me but this is a serious problem. Both sides need to present their case and if Operation Spooner doesn't want to cooperate he should be blocked for a short time until he agrees to stop edit warring.--Southern Texas 04:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't consider it an "edit war." It's just run-of-the-mill editing. What is wrong with someone making changes and another person deleting the changes? That's Wikipedia. Do you want or expect a static article? That can never happen, because this is Wikipedia. I've already mentioned several times that I'm willing to discuss my changes here if anyone wants to, but no one deleting my changes has said anything here. You're the first one to mention anything here but unfortunately you're not an involved party in this. As far as any "consensus" as far as I know there is one, because my changes was agreed to here as well as in the vote for Featured article. But even then there is no rule that I'm aware of that says there has to be a consensus first in order to put something in an article. What is the point of obtaining a consensus anyway if it's only good for that day? The next day everything is back to square one, as we've seen. So what's it for? Just to pretend that something permanent is being accomplished? Seems like a naive and childish quest. I've already said that I don't care if anyone reverts my additions because I'm willing to share this article with others. I have no ambitions to monopolize it, to keep it the way I want it. As long as my edit stands for just a few minutes out of a day or two I'm satisfied. What more could one ask for on Wikipedia? Asking anything more out of Wikipedia seems really stupid and a waste of time. Operation Spooner 05:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- ^ Osmond, Dennis H (March 2003). "Epidemiology of HIV/AIDS in the United States". University of California San Francisco. Retrieved 2007-05-26.