→Neolibertarian?: Definitely not |
→Pro-life: explaining my last edit - it's mostly a rearrangement, not a rewrite |
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::I think you should keep out of this what you think the motivations of the editors are, JLMadrigal - I don't know if you're right or wrong about BenB4's motivation - I am looking just at the facts presented here. My reading of Ron Paul's position papers and his campaign site indicate a clear pro-life stand on his part - as I said above and Jogurney agreed with. This is a biographical sketch of a man who has certain convictions, positions, etc. That his position can be used or interpreted by one group or another in wildly different ways is not our concern here. In fact the man has clearly and unambiguously said that he is pro-life, and the lede is a summary, not a place for explication of the nuances of how his position can be interpreted. '''HE''' is pro-life, not pro-life with a caveat about the states or about the Constitution even. And Ben is right that a so-called simple statement including the 10th amendment is disingenuous (that word again) in light of his own proposed amendment. So don't go there in the lede - you can't possibly present the subtleties in the lede. Do it below, do it in the other article. I'm sounding like a broken record already - and I don't know BenB4 and have never interacted or edited with him before. So please don't make any assumptions there either. I'm coming back to this article, having stopped editing it a while ago for this very reason - there is way too much partisanship here, on both sides. Leave your politics at the door, folks, or we'll never get anywhere. This is getting tedious, after only a day. Sorry for the lecture, but I think this is ridiculous. There are so many politicians who equivocate all over the place that when you have one who makes a clear statement of his position onsomething - like it or hate it - you don't know what to do with it. Kind of ironic. One last thing - saying that he is pro-life will both attract voters and repel voters - so, again, that is not our concern and not relevant to the editing of this article. Can we please move on? <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 16:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
::I think you should keep out of this what you think the motivations of the editors are, JLMadrigal - I don't know if you're right or wrong about BenB4's motivation - I am looking just at the facts presented here. My reading of Ron Paul's position papers and his campaign site indicate a clear pro-life stand on his part - as I said above and Jogurney agreed with. This is a biographical sketch of a man who has certain convictions, positions, etc. That his position can be used or interpreted by one group or another in wildly different ways is not our concern here. In fact the man has clearly and unambiguously said that he is pro-life, and the lede is a summary, not a place for explication of the nuances of how his position can be interpreted. '''HE''' is pro-life, not pro-life with a caveat about the states or about the Constitution even. And Ben is right that a so-called simple statement including the 10th amendment is disingenuous (that word again) in light of his own proposed amendment. So don't go there in the lede - you can't possibly present the subtleties in the lede. Do it below, do it in the other article. I'm sounding like a broken record already - and I don't know BenB4 and have never interacted or edited with him before. So please don't make any assumptions there either. I'm coming back to this article, having stopped editing it a while ago for this very reason - there is way too much partisanship here, on both sides. Leave your politics at the door, folks, or we'll never get anywhere. This is getting tedious, after only a day. Sorry for the lecture, but I think this is ridiculous. There are so many politicians who equivocate all over the place that when you have one who makes a clear statement of his position onsomething - like it or hate it - you don't know what to do with it. Kind of ironic. One last thing - saying that he is pro-life will both attract voters and repel voters - so, again, that is not our concern and not relevant to the editing of this article. Can we please move on? <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 16:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Just re-read the above - I am talking about the lede, not the part below and I rjust realized that JLMadrigal is referring to the part below - let me take another look at that. My comments were talking about including the words "pro-life" in the lede where I put them yesterday. Sorry if i was too hasty - I'll be back when I read the whole thing in context. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 16:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
:::Just re-read the above - I am talking about the lede, not the part below and I rjust realized that JLMadrigal is referring to the part below - let me take another look at that. My comments were talking about including the words "pro-life" in the lede where I put them yesterday. Sorry if i was too hasty - I'll be back when I read the whole thing in context. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 16:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
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Ok: I've gone over the article again, and tried a different approach to some of it that I hope will satisfy some of the concerns about making the political positions section too focused on abortion. Essentially what I did is pull out the Sanctity of Life and We the People Acts and moved them both to Legislation where they more properly belong, with only a footnote reference to them in the Political positions section. I reinstated "pro-life" in the lede which I think is essential, and also moved "states rights" up to be next to it. (Pro-life is first in that list only because of the syntax of the sentence - can't say "he supports pro-life" and this seems the shortest, simplest way to go. I don't object to that sentence being rearranged so pro-life isn't first, as long as it doesn't get unwieldy.) I reworked the pro-life portion of political positions to consolidate the points made there that were redundant, and to cast it in what I believe is a fair and accurate way - as I discussed above, and as Jogurney concurred, there is really no question about his pro-life convictions. He has been upfront and clear about them, with multiple reasons for his reaching his conclusions. It is incorrect to imply that his anti-abortion stance is based on his also heartfelt belief in states rights - that is ignoring the forest for the trees. His pro-life beliefs are just that, and his method of addressing the problem, as Proper tea points out, is to get the Federal government out of it. I believe, however, that the two bills (SoL and WTP - especially SoL) go quite a bit farther than just supporting states rights, and I am not willing to agree that his position is just in support of the 10th amendment. So I've tried to skirt that debate by stating what we know to be actual facts, supported by citations - his own statements and the bills he has submitted. And I tried to be mindful of the concern that the section not be weighted too much toward the abortion issue, but I think it is not realistic to say that it's just one more issue. It is one of the major issues of our day, and the end result of what appears to be Paul's position (true about many of his positions, in fact) would certainly change the course of events and social policy in this country. Whether you agree with him or not, these are issues that people will come here to look for information on, and we have to try to objectively present his positions and his actions and let readers conclude what they will. Campaign spins are irrelevant and the pretzel-twisting doesn't work - on either side of the issues. I hope this re-working will allow us to move along to the next thing. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 20:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
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== Stem cell research == |
== Stem cell research == |
Revision as of 20:06, 13 September 2007
Ron Paul has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Good article |
Biography A‑class | ||||||||||
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U.S. Congress A‑class High‑importance | |||||||||||||
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United States: Texas Unassessed | |||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Political positions leftovers
- I trimmed the following from the Political positions section as it was merged in from another section but still doesn't really belong. Perhaps can be worked in elsewhere.
Records from the Federal Election Commission show that Paul accepts money from political action committees (PACs), although much less than most of his counterparts in Congress. Dr. Paul consistently received PAC money during the 1998(5.7%), 2000 (4.5%), 2002 (1.8%), 2004 (5.8%), and 2006 (2.1%) congressional electoral cycles.[1]
In a special report, the group Clean Up Washington listed Paul as taking the seventh-least amount of money from PACs of all members of the House, as well as one of the members of Congress accepting the least amount of money from lobbyists and as ranking fourth in taking the most percentage of contributions from small donors. Their data studied contributions from the 2000 election cycle to midway through 2006.[2] Of the 2008 Republican presidential candidates, he has accepted the least percentage of PAC money.[3][4]
Paul can be "maddeningly uncooperative" to his Republican colleagues because he will not give in to pressure to vote for bills that he views as spending taxpayers' money in a wasteful manner or for bills that he feels violate the Constitution.[5] Once when former House Speaker Newt Gingrich exhorted every Republican to vote the party line, he invoked a "Ron Paul exemption," saying Paul could vote as he pleased.[6] Fellow fiscal conservative Jeff Flake said in 2006, "When I'm the only no vote, I can usually rest assured he's on a plane somewhere." Paul recounts that once, a bill passed 432-3. He thought the bill was based on a bad principle, and he had convinced the two members of the House sitting next to him to join him in casting a "No" vote while they waited.[7]
Under Early life and education, in the last sentence, put in adhered/adhere TO, word is missing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.165.30 (talk) 19:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Signing this section or it will never be archived. ←BenB4 07:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Marriage
I fixed the opening slightly regarding federal involvement of marriage but I still don't think it's right. Why are we mentioning marriage twice? Are we mentioning any other issue twice in that paragraph? 67.184.23.112 03:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- We are trying to accurately represent his position. I think saying he "is opposed to gay marriage" is sufficient, but supporters tell me that the nuances are oh-so-important. The way you "fixed" is was to make it say the same thing twice -- being opposed to a federal definition of marriage is the same thing as wanting no federal jurisdiction over marriage: if you can't define it, you can't govern it, and vice versa. BenB4 05:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- It was already saying the same thing twice. Are there any cites of him being opposed to gay marriage? 67.184.23.112 12:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- "- so clearly, your position on for instance gay marriage, you'd be supportive of that? I am supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want." Ron Paul in interview with Google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCM_wQy4YVg
- Yes, any time he has been asked, he has said that there should be no federal intervention. This does not belong in the lead, anyway.--Gloriamarie 06:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- "- so clearly, your position on for instance gay marriage, you'd be supportive of that? I am supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want." Ron Paul in interview with Google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCM_wQy4YVg
- It was already saying the same thing twice. Are there any cites of him being opposed to gay marriage? 67.184.23.112 12:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I think its very obvious that Paul is simply against any re-definition of the term "marriage". Marriage as a relationship he is not against, since he has stated in many places he does not like to outlaw consensual relationships when asked about gay marriage(watch is interview at Google). That is quite different from being opposed to the act of gay marriage itself, and fits with both his being a libertarian and a Christian.65.89.246.2 02:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- At Google he said, "you can call it whatever you want." ←BenB4 03:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Right, free people are free to call it whatever they want. But a redefinition by government fiat would not be "free". As an agnostic it does sound very silly to me, but I realize many Christians take that sort of thing quite seriously. Redefining the institution of marriage to include gays may offend a great many of them. In any case, there is no quote or action by Paul showing that he is against the act of gay marriage, but there are quotes of him saying he wouldn't want to criminalize it.
- Signing this section or it will never be archived. ←BenB4 07:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Neturality Neutrality
I know this might be a sore subject, but I nominated this article on behalf of the neutrality standard. I feel like this article was written by a Ron Paul supporter. That in itself isn't a problem, but I some aspects of the author's bias show in the writing. I wanted to nominate it for a neutrality check because, as we approach the elections, it's important that we use Wikipedia for unbiased information, not political stumping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.133.184 (talk • contribs)
We do still need a third paragraph in the intro for an article this size, according to WP:LEAD. Since the 2nd paragraph of the lead at present is nothing but the accomplishments of which his supporters are most proud, I think we should summarize his controversial positions such as the Sanctity of Life Act, his comments about gay marriage, the fact he wants to pull out of NATO and the UN, the federal agencies he wants to dismantle, and the newsletter remarks incident, in the lead, too. What do other people think? ←BenB4 22:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would say no to more political positions. There is a whole article on political positions and a summary section in this article. There is no reason to have a two paragraph summary of the three paragraph summary of a different article. Turtlescrubber 23:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- A third paragraph could consist of what college/universities he attended, his medical and maybe military career, etc., to summarize what the article consists of. I agree, no more political positions.--76.182.88.254 00:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if that's the consensus I'm going to insist on a lengthier exposition of his contoversial positions in the summary section. ←BenB4 02:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Are you going to take your ball and go home too? They are summary sections. Balance the positive and negatives and keep the section short. You might want to propose changes on the talk page so only the bare minimum of reverts happen. Turtlescrubber 02:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- The newsletter controversy? Turtlescrubber 05:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- I've always been of the opinion that his positions are more controversial than the newsletter dust-up, because I believe him when he says an employee wrote it without him reviewing it first. A lot of his positions are in the 0-5% support range. If we can't agree, and I'm willing to drop it if you're sure we shouldn't have any more positions in the lead, then I guess we should add the college, his medical, and military career stuff instead as suggested above. But if we do that, I think we should mention at least the Sanctity of Life Act in the intro with all his proud accomplishments. ←BenB4 06:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Again? The "neturality" issue has already been decided. Shame on you Ben and Turtle for not removing the illicit tag yourselves. JLMadrigal 14:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- "...and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any." (No notable controversies) "...The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at but not explaining important facts that will appear later in the article..." (Since the disputed summaries are nuanced, as you have said, they would do just that.) JLMadrigal 00:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- You are saying there are no notable controversies? The newsletter thing has appeared in major reliable sources. Saying "Paul was criticized when a newsletter article was published under his name with derogatory comments about African-Americans and other politicians" isn't a tease. Withdrawing from NATO is controversial because it has essentially 0% support in the US. Articles have appeared in major reliable sources about treating embryos as people. The list goes on. ←BenB4 00:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Ron Paul media blackout. Now THAT'S notable, and well documented. Would you object if it were mentioned in the intro? JLMadrigal 13:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Ron Paul Media Blackout
(back left) Is the blackout discussed in a reliable source? All I see is blogs. And, what blackout? Google News has more than 100 articles over the past two days and that's with duplicates like newswire stories removed. ←BenB4 13:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's "Google News." A straight Google search for the exact phrase "Ron Paul media blackout" alone gave me 1,570 hits as of today. JLMadrigal 15:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- A boolean Google search for pages containing "Ron Paul" AND "blackout" yields 74,300 hits! A search for the phrase "Ron Paul" yields 8,600,000 hits!! Common sense should dictate that the simple fact that he has been the the top Internet search term as measured by Technorati and Hitwise, while the big TV networks and news outlets are completely silent shows a major information imbalance. Hello? JLMadrigal 13:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- So there is a lot of talk about the blackout on blogs, but lets take a look at the actual number of news stories:
Candidate Polling
[1]Google News
stories
by dateRatio Ron Paul 2% 2,831 1,416 Rudy Giuliani 33% 10,723 325 John McCain 16% 11,311 706 Hillary Clinton 48% 12,905 269 Barack Obama 26% 21,216 816
- That's not a blackout, that's a love affair. ←BenB4 15:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
you are playing with statistics, the 2% was drawn from an average of polls of which most did not include Paul. you know this, then why do you keep on playing with statistics? furthermore, he got a 9% in the Iowa poll and he won the Alabama poll among others, why don't you draw your numbers from there? a last point, in this country voting is not an obligation, therefore only those who care about it go to vote, the fact that Ron Paul's supporters care so much about him is a positive point than all the other candidates would love to have. we come here to defend him because we actually believe in what he believes, we are not getting paid to do this (unlike you Ben). the media black out is a fact, if you can't see than in each debate Rudy Mcromney get 15 min each and Paul get 3-5 min you are blind. true, the other small timers are getting ignored also, but Paul is getting ignored with special emphasis because we've all heard how the republican party wanted to exclude him from the debates after his confrontation with ruddy. or are you going to ignore all this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.86.203.140 (talk) 05:21, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
- Please have another look here. When Paul isn't a choice, they leave his square blank. The most he's ever polled is 3%, when he was a choice. I guess I haven't heard what you've heard, but if I'm getting paid, would you please tell whoever's paying me to hurry up and send the check? ←BenB4 10:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
i saw that link many times, you are referring me to the same link where you got the two percent, circular arguments? you clearly did not read what was not convenient to your view. and about the pay, son, if you are no being paid to do this, you are a big time loser, bashing Ron Paul on a daily basis for what? at least we are here because we believe in something and we wana make sure people like you won't turn the internet into what tv media already is. truly, if you are not getting paid to do this, you need to go get a life. but please, whatever you do, stop bashing Ron Paul for no reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.86.203.140 (talk) 15:41, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant here. And please ease up on the insults. I'm well aware that I have no life, but I do have a purpose here. When I saw all the hagiography popping up on YouTube and the like, I realized that this article would have bias problems. I was right, but some of them were easier to spot than others. Frankly, I'm terrified of the likes of Paul, politicians promising the libertarian agenda, but what they really want is to impose authoritarian fundamentalist Christianity on the schools, bedrooms, clinics, and court houses, sell us out to the rich with regressive taxes and commodity currency, and sever our diplomatic ties. Nothing could be further from true libertarianism. ←BenB4 07:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. The so-called blackout is not notable. News is a business and it airs/prints only what people are interested in watching/reading.--Daveswagon 00:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Lack of "news stories." That's the whole point. Duh!!! Here's my second paragraph. Clearly notable and well documented information:
- While Paul has dominated the Internet,[8] being the top Internet search term as measured by Hitwise,[9] Alexa Internet,[10] and Technorati,[11] and has won three out of four of the 2008 GOP debates according to the online polls by the debates' sponsors, he has received relatively little name recognition from the mainstream media.[12][13] In YouTube, he has surged ahead of all other presidential candidates.[14] His YouTube channel was one of the top 40 most subscribed of all time, with over 25,000 subscribers.[15]
- JLMadrigal 11:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't object to that paragraph (although "dominated," "surged," and "of all time" might be wp:peacock terms) but it can't be in the wp:lead because it doesn't summarize something that's already in the article, so I moved it to the campaign section. ←BenB4 12:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- A major oversight. Thanks. I added the missing section. JLMadrigal 14:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Abolition of the income tax
I think the main article should cover the fact that the national sales tax which Paul advocates would be terribly regressive, e.g., making retirees pay a 23% tax on all their purchases. The rich, who buy fewer goods proportionally to their income and wealth, would pay a lower tax rate than the poor.[2] What do other people think? ←BenB4 04:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think you should stop trying to twist the article to conform to your obvious political bias, that's what I think. BTW, it is NOT a "fact" that a national sales tax would be "terribly regressive". That is an opinion. 12.10.248.51 14:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Where does it say that Paul advocates a large national sales tax? Paul wants to reduce federal government spending by quite a bit, so abolition of the IRS doesn't necessarily mean a replacement tax. Granola Bars 05:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- He wants either a national sales tax or a flat tax, which would also be an income tax so if he wants to repeal the 16th amendment, that leaves the national sales tax.[3] ←BenB4 06:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Is it a fact that Paul supports an income-regressive tax? I don't think there is any evidence of that. National consumption taxes may or may not be income-regressive (they are income-independent) depending on how they are structured. Let's not jump to conclusions here. Jogurney 17:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- He says he opposes income tax, but he talks about a "flat tax or a national sales tax." But a flat tax is just a regressive income tax. And sales tax is regressive. So, yeah. 209.77.205.2 20:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Given the radical reduction in the size of the federal government that would accompany any change in the tax system, the point is moot. It's important to keep things in context. --Serge 20:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- The article clearly says that he would reduce spending and taxes. That doesn't make a sales tax any less regressive. 209.77.205.2 21:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- State and local sales taxes are often structured to reduce income-regressivity. Food, medicine and clothing are typically taxed at reduced rates (or are completely exempt). It is quite possible that a national sales tax system would utilize a similar structure or even provide additional means to fight income-regressivity (e.g., rebates or exemptions for low-income individuals). You can jump to whatever conclusions you like, but it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Best regards. Jogurney 21:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Senior citizens would most likely pay little or no sales tax via identification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.160.106.7 (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Where is the source that says he advocates this kind of tax? I have only heard him say that he is willing to look at the Fair Tax, but he does not support it completely (and is not a co-sponsor of the Fair Tax Act) because he is afraid there would be both a sales tax and later income taxes imposed, and because the Fair Tax says nothing about reducing spending or reducing taxes and in fact makes a point that its presumed rate of sales tax would be the same as current intake on income taxes.--Gloriamarie 03:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can tell and have heard, Dr. Paul advocates no replacement tax once a Federal Income Tax is abolished. He is against a fair tax, and as for a sales tax, in his 1982 book "A case for gold" he talks about eliminating sales tax once a gold standard is enacted. First time post, hope i did ok. Daddyjoe74 03:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
H.R. 4379 [109th]: We the People Act
The We the People Act needs to be discussed. It would have:
- Prohibited federal courts from hearing:
- "any claim based upon the right of privacy, including any such claim related to any issue of sexual practices, orientation, or reproduction;" and
- "any claim based upon equal protection of the laws to the extent such claim is based upon the right to marry without regard to sex or sexual orientation."
- Allowed state courts to disobey standing federal precedent on the above issues; and
- Prohibited federal courts from making any ruling which expends funds or "imposes taxes."[4]
This shows clearly that Paul cares more for states' rights than individual rights: If this bill had become law, states would again be able to outlaw homosexuality, abortion, and any sex act. The bill explicitly references gay marriage (1.2) in a way that would do nothing to protect it; only to allow states to outlaw it. It would also severely limit the ability of the federal judiciary in a way that would have prevented:
- enforcement of the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment, to the extent that such enforcement would have required any money, or that freeing slaves constituted taxation of slave owners;
- suffrage, because all those extra ballots for women would have cost money;
- desegregation, to the extent that it required expenditure;
- legalization of abortion;
- discrimination laws protecting gays and lesbians;
- requiring government buildings to comply with accessibility laws;
- the abolition of sodomy laws;
- any order for the government to comply with a law that required any money;
- requiring translation services in for battered women seeking restraining orders in family court; and
- a whole lot more.
I find this very disturbing. I fully realize that we must have a reliable source which states these problems, and I'm looking for one. ←BenB4 09:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Gasp. Paul actually believes in the Constitution and doesn't like the federal government.
- You're looking at it the wrong way Ben. What he supports also means that a state can legalize homosexuality, abortion, or any sex act. He leaves it up to the states. If the people of Alabama vote for no gay marriage, then they shouldn't have the federal government force it down their throats. If Californians vote FOR gay marriage, then the federal government can't stop them. This is what Ron Paul supports. His quote about forcing other states to recognize gay marriages is again just this issue. He thinks it is wrong to regulate marriage on a federal level, period. Every state has its own marriage laws, and Ron Paul just wants to extend the notion to gay marriage.--Cheszmastre 18:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- States can legalize those things as it is. The only thing this act does is allows the States to outlaw them without any possibility of being overruled by the federal judiciary enforcing the Constitution. The Act is diametrically opposed to libertarian ideals and shows the true social conservative nature of Paul. If you believe in the Constitution, then you believe in federal government. ←BenB4 20:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, as Cheszmastre already pointed it out to you, it also allows the States to legalize without being overruled by the federal government. 24.14.76.94 23:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
But those who believe in the Constitution don't believe in a powerful federal government. And libertarians are pro-decentralization. The federal government extending it's reach beyond that of which they believe to be Constitutional is a major grievance libertarians have, regardless of whether they agree that the policies suggested would be beneficial if applied by the states. Granola Bars 21:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Who says libertarians are pro-decentralization? Libertarians are pro-liberty. The Equal Protection Clause is pro-liberty. This bill is authoritarian, pure and simple. ←BenB4 21:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Libertarians are indeed pro-liberty, and pro-decentralization is seen as being part of this. Really, I'm rather surprised this even needs to be explained. Granola Bars 21:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Granola Bars: me and several others keep trying to explain it to BenB4, but he never listens. BenB4 constantly tries to twist this article to fit his political agenda. Why we keep letting him have input on this article is beyond me. 24.14.76.94 23:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Liberty and decentralization are entirely orthogonal. You can have a large free state and a lot of little totalitarian states. ←BenB4 22:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, it's probably possible, or at least its conceivable anyways, to have a large, heavily centralized state that is "free." Is it likely? No. Granola Bars 22:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's your opinion, unsupported I gather. And off the topic of the bill. I presume that you have no evidence that it was designed to do anything other than allow the states to restrict personal liberty, do you? ←BenB4 23:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
There are many, many libertarians that believe what I said. It's rather odd to be lectured on what they do or do not believe when the evidence is so glaringly different. Granola Bars 00:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- So you say. Is there any evidence contrary to the fact that the only freedom this bill provides is the freedom for states to restrict specific individual liberties? ←BenB4 00:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The Congressional Research Service provided this summary of the bill [5]. It appears to be an effort to limit the powers of the federal courts to interfere with legislative branch duties (such as levying taxes) and to ajudicate on certain matters: (1) state rules involving the establishment/free exercise clauses; (2) right to privacy; and (3) right to marry based on the equal protection clause. All of these appear consistent with a libertarian outlook except (2) and (3). I suspect that Paul believes that those "rights" are not conferred by the Constitution and that is his basis for limiting federal courts' standing over claims based on them. I think we should be careful in editorializing about what this proposal may or may not have prevented (especially claims such as the abolition of slavery). I also wonder how significant the bill is, since it never left committee. Paul did introduce it, and it is reflective of his political views, but perhaps it makes the most sense to mention it in the political positions article. Best regards. Jogurney 16:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- The summary is just a recap of the bill's text. The only effect removing federal court jurisdiction would have is to allow the states to outlaw the activities. It would not do anything to advance personal liberty. And it says plainly that the courts can't make any orders that spend any money or charge any taxes. I haven't been able to find any reliable sources which discuss the bill, so I'm unable to say much about it. ←BenB4 16:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wouldn't removing federal court jurisdiction also allow states to legalize the activities? 24.14.76.94
- Sadly, no. The jurisdiction is removed only for claims based on the right of privacy and the Equal Protection Clause. If there is a federal law prohibiting an activity, the government can still bring a case based on that law. It only facilitates prohibition. ←BenB4 23:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I just looked up the actual text of the law, and the first very power is "(A) any claim involving the laws, regulations, or policies of any State or unit of local government relating to the free exercise or establishment of religion". It looks like it's about state's rights again. It's interesting that you somehow ommitted this from your original post. 24.14.76.94 01:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's not a power, that's another category of cases that would be removed from federal court jurisdiction. I didn't mention it because as far as I can tell, it's only designed to prevent Establishment Clause restrictions on nativity scenes, displays of the Ten Commandments, etc. I think that's pretty minor, in the scheme of things. It does go directly against Paul's statement that he's opposed to official religion. I have it on good authority that Jews think nativity scenes in town halls are not the way they want to have their taxes spent. And in any case, it only concerns, "any State or unit of local government," not individual rights and liberty. ←BenB4 06:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong again, BenB4. I doubt most people would agree with you that freedom of religion is "pretty minor". Yes, it's about states rights. Isn't that what I just said? Jeez.... 12.10.248.51 14:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Look, both sides here are getting way too much into the merits. There are lots of places to argue the merits of the bill, but here we're just supposed to report the facts. Ben, you've been putting too much of your own analysis into the article (for example the claim that the bill to state that life begins at conception would have resulted in treating abortion as murder, sourced only to an advocacy website -- the claims that abolishing the IRS would result in regressive taxation are also excessive personal analysis). I think the Paul supporters have been doing the same thing though I don't have examples off the top of my head. --Trovatore 08:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I have two mass-media sources saying that defining fetuses as people makes abortion murder, and sources for the fact that national sales taxes are regressive, too. Others have indicated they believe their should be some mention of the We The People Act, but in the absence of discussion in reliable sources, I'm not sure what we can say supported by the bill's text. ←BenB4 08:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's still too much original synthesis. What you need are notable figures criticizing specifically Paul's actions in these regards, not sources saying as a general matter that sales taxes are regressive or that a definition would result in treating abortion as murder. --Trovatore 09:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Is there a policy or guideline that agrees? If "Paul supports X" then we are allowed to quote from sources that explain the implications of X. ←BenB4 10:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- In non-controversial articles on some technical subject, people might let you get away with that if it's helpful for the reader. In an article like this one I'm afraid someone's going to insist on applying WP:OR#Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Might be me, even though I'm disturbed in much the same way you are about the "We the People" act. I don't see any conclusive evidence that Paul intended to criminalize abortion (he may simply have intended to codify what he believed was fact), and it's also not clear that he intends anyone's tax burden to rise. --Trovatore 19:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- Is there a policy or guideline that agrees? If "Paul supports X" then we are allowed to quote from sources that explain the implications of X. ←BenB4 10:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's still too much original synthesis. What you need are notable figures criticizing specifically Paul's actions in these regards, not sources saying as a general matter that sales taxes are regressive or that a definition would result in treating abortion as murder. --Trovatore 09:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I recommend that any reference to Paul's support for a national sales tax use a wikilink to the relevant article on national sales tax (or general sales taxes if there is no article on national sales tax). The reader can follow the wikilink and learn about sales tax there and decide whether it is a fact that they are income-regressive. Adding commentary here is unnecessary and potentially erroneous (particularly because we don't know what type of national sales tax system Paul would support). Jogurney 16:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the "We the People Act" quite disturbing, and am left with 4 possible conclusions. 1) He is a libertarian in name only; 2) He was pandering to his conservative base, knowing the bill would not pass; 3) He is more of a constitutionalist than a libertarian; 4) He believes that state-control of this issues will best preserve individual liberty in the long-run (which I do not find likely). I find the second alternative to be much more likely than the others. This is a guy with a picture of Rothbard on his wall, and who mentioned Lysander Spooner on national TV. He's introduced bills in the past that he knows can't get past congress and that he didn't actually want to pass (such as the bill to abolish the Fed, when he's stated he only wants to allow competition with them). I don't think its fair to say we know why he introduced the "We the People" act, so I don't see any reason to put it in the article. Maybe a summary about some people calling him too socially conservative to be a libertarian? 65.89.246.2 04:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- At present, the article only summarizes the bill. Assuming you're right, and he was pandering to conservatives, knowing the bill wouldn't pass, then removing it from the article would make that less effective and possibly cause him to lose ground with conservatives reading here, whereas if we left it in he might gain from conservatives reading here. What I'm getting at is that we should still describe the bill, if for no other reason than it is interesting in the way that the encyclopedia is supposed to be comprehensive: We the People Act was until a few days ago, only edited by people who had not edited Ron Paul, so presumably there was that independent reason to describe the bill back in January 2006 before Paul even announced. ←BenB4 08:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
GA Type out what GA means, you lazy fool
- It is reasonably well written.
- a (prose): b (MoS):
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
- It is stable.
- It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
- a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
- Overall:
- a Pass/Fail: Mrprada911 19:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Internet popularity paragraph in intro
I think this paragraph should be deleted. It is not a significant part of who Ron Paul the person is, and it appear to violate the "Notability is not temporary" part of Wikipedia:Notability.--Daveswagon 02:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, though I might support some brief mention of it in the intro. An entire paragraph is completely unbalanced, however.--Proper tea is theft 06:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Negatory. Even BenB4 agrees that Paul's Internet popularity is notable enough to be included in the intro, as documented in his comment on my User_talk. JLMadrigal 12:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Hillary Clinton, the leading democratic candidate, has one sentence in her intro mentioning her national poll standings. Why should Paul get several sentences devoted solely to unscientific indicators on the Internet?--Daveswagon 20:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- Because it's an unusual and defining phenomenon that's been included in many if not most of the mainstream press articles covering his campaign? Given that Paul is little-known apart from his campaigning for president, the interesting aspects of the campaign are enough to fill their section on par with the length of other sections, so why shouldn't they be summarized? ←BenB4 20:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- We have a separate article devoted to Paul's campaign. Such a paragraph would be more appropriate there.--Daveswagon 21:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- While a key characteristic of Ron Paul's presidential campaign is his use of the Internet, there is little evidence to suggest that Paul's popularity on YouTube and Technorati will be enduring qualities that warrant an entire paragraph in the intro. See for instance, the article on Howard Dean, which contains no mention of Dean's Internet popularity in the lead, despite the fact that Dean was a presidential candidate who ably used the Internet to generate a great deal of support and attention.
- Also (and this probably should go in its own section), the "controversy" recently inserted into the lead feels a little tacked on. I was not aware that talk page consensus had shifted toward including these "uncharacteristic" newsletter remarks in the intro.--Proper tea is theft 21:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
- But there is evidence galore that in spite of the notable blackout, his Internet popularity is on the rise. Other than POVs, there is no evidence that this will not be an "enduring quality." JLMadrigal 11:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not contesting the notability of his Internet presence. I am asking whether an entire paragraph that contains information about his YouTube channel and the unscientific results of online polls should constitute nearly one-third of the intro. Perhaps another way to look at this: In five years, will it be noteworthy that Ron Paul was popular on YouTube or that he "won" a debate according to an online poll? I doubt it. The overall way in which he used the Internet, on the other hand, probably will.--Proper tea is theft 18:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
(back left) Given that a mention is all that occurs of his campaign in the other parts of the lead, how would you summarize it in the intro? ←BenB4 01:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Abortion again
In the summary, can't we just say that he's opposed to abortion, without getting into nuances that he thinks it's not a federal issue, except he voted against partial-birth abortions in Congress and wants to define embryos as people at the federal level? All of that is explained in the Political positions section below, and we don't spend near as much intro text on any other position. ←BenB4 12:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that understanding his position requires expanding on the megaissue of states' rights. If the federal government is limited to certain issues, the other ones are irrelevant. The Iraq issue has the same dilemma. Advocates of the war can use "ends justifies means" arguments to make the war palatable. Dictators exist. But the Constitution does not grant "democracy building" functions to the federal government. Likewise, the Constitution places states above the federal government on any nonenumerated powers. Simply saying "Paul opposes abortion," would make the majority of readers think that he takes the standard Republican approach of federally prohibiting to all states. Nuanced. JLMadrigal 13:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- How exactly does defining embryos as people at the federal level show any respect for states' rights? How is voting for the partial-birth abortion ban consistent with avoiding nonenumerated powers? He has stated that abortion is "an act of aggression" against a fetus, which he believes to be alive, human, and possessing legal rights. How can you possibly say that is inconsistent with simply being opposed to abortion? ←BenB4 14:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Whether he favors or opposes abortion is irrelevant, since he respects federal lack of constitutional jurisdiction over abortion. Out of respect for the Constitution, he has explicitly stated that the federal government has no jurisdiction to enforce abortion restrictions or protections. In the wake of Roe v. Wade, he has attempted to patch a gaping hole by which the federal government would have guaranteed the murder of late term babies (not embryos, BTW). That's consistent. Again, the ends do not justify the means. The Constitution does not allow the federal government to enforce or prohibit abortion in the same way that it does not allow nationbuilding. Surely a Libertarian would not override the Constitution, would he? Those who do are no better than Fascists. "Paul opposes abortion" is far too simplistic for the intro, and turns readers with a centralized view of abortion (like yourself, apparently) away without reading the article. Editors of this article should have at least a rudimentary understanding of Constitutionalism as applied to the "enumerated rights" issue. JLMadrigal 12:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The article as it currently stands is inaccurate. It states that he thinks Roe v. Wade "should be overturned." Paul has made his position very clear that he does not support litigation to overturn Roe v. Wade. This ref that I added was removed for some reason: Savidan 05:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC) [16]
- Your own source contains, "Those who cherish unborn life have become frustrated by our inability to overturn or significantly curtail Roe v. Wade.... Legislatively, we should focus our efforts on building support to overturn Roe v. Wade." However, his Sanctity of Life Act of 2005, and his We the People Act, would both have removed jurisdiction over abortion prohibitions from the federal courts, effectively overturning Roe'. ←BenB4 12:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's fair to say Paul thinks Roe v. Wade is bad law. It's also apparent that Paul is in favor of allowing states to restrict the availability of abortion. Is the phrase "Paul opposes abortion" a fair summary of these views? Perhaps, but more a more nuanced comment would be better. Best regards. Jogurney 13:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Religion
So, apparently the New York Times says he's a Baptist,[6] and NPR says he's an Episcopalian.[7] What do we say? The NYT puts it this way:
- "His family was pious and Lutheran; two of his brothers became ministers. Paul’s five children were baptized in the Episcopal church, but he now attends a Baptist one."
I'm inclined to say Baptist, given that. ←BenB4 03:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd also go by what the NYT says.--Daveswagon 03:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe y'all should ask him. The NYT article with a disparaging title would need a subscription to be read. It can't be used. JLMadrigal 12:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- We are supposed to use secondary sources when available. Do you personally know where he worships? Why do you think the NYT article title is disparaging? The NYT is a reliable source, and you can get the article for free by registering (no subscription required) but if you don't want to, then use http://www.bugmenot.com/view/www.nytimes.com ←BenB4 13:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- OK. I can't find any Wikipedia policy of omitting sources that require registration. Just a pesky inconvenience for our readers. NYTimes Online is OK. Maybe their more recent articles about Paul are less disparaging. BTW BugMeNot requires registration too. JLMadrigal 11:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not only can you use articles that require registration, but you can use articles as references that aren't even online.--Gloriamarie 03:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- OK. I can't find any Wikipedia policy of omitting sources that require registration. Just a pesky inconvenience for our readers. NYTimes Online is OK. Maybe their more recent articles about Paul are less disparaging. BTW BugMeNot requires registration too. JLMadrigal 11:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- We are supposed to use secondary sources when available. Do you personally know where he worships? Why do you think the NYT article title is disparaging? The NYT is a reliable source, and you can get the article for free by registering (no subscription required) but if you don't want to, then use http://www.bugmenot.com/view/www.nytimes.com ←BenB4 13:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe y'all should ask him. The NYT article with a disparaging title would need a subscription to be read. It can't be used. JLMadrigal 12:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd also go by what the NYT says.--Daveswagon 03:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I found clarifying information to add on Ron Paul's religious belief and affiliation, but I don't see a good way to include it in the article as structured. Any suggestions? The easiest way might be simply to include a reference to this link, from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. RP grew up Lutheran, married an Episcopalian & attended that denomination. All his children were baptised in same. He and his wife "became less comfortable with the Episcopal Church as time went on." They now "occasionally" attend a baptist church. "Paul feels the "greatest affinity right now" with the Baptist denomination and identifies himself as a Baptist, though he is not a formal member of a local church. In the past, Paul has identified himself simply as "Protestant" but is now saying "as a matter of clarification" that he is a Baptist." The site even gives this personal statement by RP In His Own Words:
"I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do." (The Covenant News, July 2007) ←wpmno 22:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really see why it matters so much. It would settle it all just to say Protestant. However, I'd recommend going with the NY Times on this.--Gloriamarie 03:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
We the People Act and court spending
JLMadrigal says that the We the People Act would "prevent federal courts from expending funds for the purpose of interfering in state and local government decisions regarding the display of religious text and imagery, abortion, sexual practices, and same-sex marriage" instead of "would forbid federal courts from spending any money to enforce their judgments
Here's what the Act says:
- SEC. 4. REGULATION OF APPELLATE JURISDICTION.
- The Supreme Court of the United States and all other Federal courts--
- ... (2) shall not issue any order, final judgment, or other ruling that appropriates or expends money, imposes taxes, or otherwise interferes with the legislative functions or administrative discretion of the several States and their subdivisions.[8]
I am correcting the error. ←BenB4 13:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Error? What error? Two sides, one coin. JLMadrigal 02:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Second paragraph
1. Yes, people refer to Ron Paul as a liberal, and the cited source, the National Journal Vote Rankings, gives him a composite liberal voting score of 61. I could add other sources if required, but the label "liberal" is an accurate use of this reliable source.
2. "...which he would replace with a national sales tax," is inaccurate - at least according to the cited source. The Caucus states that it would consider a sales tax among other tax reduction alternatives. The cited document reads as follows:
- "There should be a national debate discussing various alternative means of taxation including but not limited to a single flat income tax, repealing the income tax and replacing it with a national sales tax, and reducing spending to the point where the income tax can be repealed without the need to replace it with a national sales tax or any other form of taxation."
3. Why BenB4 refuses to acknowledge Paul's position of the States as the center of the abortion issue is beyond me. Paul's position is abundantly clear. Please keep the reference to the 10th amendment.
JLMadrigal 01:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- That source doesn't say he's a liberal. 209.77.205.2 20:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ron Paul's opposition to abortion and capital punishment is again being used as a teaser and will need to be removed for various reasons discussed. His support of the 9th and 10th amendments defines many of his positions - including these. Currently, this article sufficiently outlines his position on these issues, and the positions article elaborates as it should. Abortion and capital punishment are political positions on which all candidates have a stance, but if they belong in this article, they can not be used in the lead - unless clarified. His pivotal states' rights position, on the other hand, distinguishes him from the other candidates. JLMadrigal 12:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Bullshit. He's opposed to both. and no about of verbiage about the 9th and 10th amendments changes the fact that he's voted and introduced legislation to ban abortion. 209.77.205.2 14:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Let me try teaching you with an illustration: Let's say the Supreme Court says it's OK for anyone to dump toxic waste into any body of water. In response, Representative "A" introduces emergency legislation that limits such pollution to bodies of water greater than 100 square miles, and limits contaminants to chemicals with a toxicity level below "X". So representative "A" has effectively limited pollution which wasn't supposed to have been federally authorized in the first place, while seeking an opportunity to overturn the original decision. The decision represents Roe v. Wade, and the band-aid represents the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. Need I expand? JLMadrigal 14:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- So you're saying he's all for states' rights as long as the Supreme Court doesn't disagree with him? I like the "unshakable foe" quote from his own website someone found. Are you going to say we need to nuance his own campaign material? ←BenB4 22:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that the quote is misleading as to his position. What he believes personally is separate from his political positions, which is that he believes states should decide for themselves. The inclusion of that quote gives a misleading appearance to his more nuanced position on abortion, and I just don't see why any editor would want to insert something misleading to readers.--Gloriamarie 23:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- So you're saying he's all for states' rights as long as the Supreme Court doesn't disagree with him? I like the "unshakable foe" quote from his own website someone found. Are you going to say we need to nuance his own campaign material? ←BenB4 22:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Featured article
This article is looking pretty decent. Maybe it can be a featured article? Operation Spooner 20:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- It can't hurt to try. The worst that can happen is you get suggestions for improving it. 209.77.205.2 02:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Ron Paul the liberal
I don't feel strongly one or the other about the mention of this in the intro, but as it is worded now:
Ron Paul has been referred to as a conservative,[3] a constitutionalist,[4] and a libertarian,[5] and a classical liberal [6] (as distinct from modern American liberalism).
it fails to conform to the cited source, which is a rating of his voting record that falls into the "liberal" range according the National Journal. That is not quite the same as calling him a "classical liberal" or (as it read earlier) "a liberal." --Proper tea is theft 20:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Nevermind, User:Operation Spooner was on this, it seems. --Proper tea is theft 20:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- "...and a classical liberal[17] (as distinct from modern American liberalism)." is a perfect compromise regarding the "liberal" label, and succinct enough for the intro. Many sources for this catagorization are available if necessary. JLMadrigal 12:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- That source says he has classical liberal views, not that he's a classical liberal. If you want it in, say it like that. I think calling him a liberal just confuses things. 209.77.205.2 14:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would say that he is a classical liberal, but I don't think it clarifies anything these days because too many people think that classical liberal means FDR, not Jefferson. Life, Liberty, Property 04:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
recent edits to lead
Ron Paul is one of the leading candidates in the Republican Presidential Campain having won 6 straw polls and finishing 2nd in 3 polls out 18 conducted so far Straw Poll Results.
Anon keeps adding the above. I have numerous concerns about this text, but I suppose the biggest reason that it should be removed (or heavily edited) is that the statement that Paul is a leading candidate is WP:OR ("...any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a 'novel narrative or historical interpretation.'") --Proper tea is theft 18:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
might need clarification
Paul is pro-life, but, consistent with his opposition to federal power, he is in favor of allowing each state to decide whether to allow or prohibit it, instead of the federal government.
Ron Paul wants to allow each state to allow or prohibit life? I assume that "it" is supposed to refer to abortion in this context, but perhaps that could be made a bit more clear. 62.158.126.58 10:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's not even true. He says that sometimes, but he votes and introduces legislation to flat-out prohibit abortions. 209.77.205.2 01:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Negatory. The act that he voted for filled a gaping loophole in Roe v Wade. (see above) JLMadrigal 13:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder if you think saying it funny like "negatory" makes it any less of a lie. What "loophole"? The vote was still to ban abortions. At least two of the bills he introduced would have banned all abortion. And at the federal level. He gets up on the stump and talks about the "murder" of unborn children. ←BenB4 17:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- There are also two generalized categories of abortion: early term and late-term. I believe the form of abortion he voted to ban at the federal level was partial birth abortion, which is a different matter altogether for even many who support abortion rights early in pregnancy.--Gloriamarie 03:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder if you think saying it funny like "negatory" makes it any less of a lie. What "loophole"? The vote was still to ban abortions. At least two of the bills he introduced would have banned all abortion. And at the federal level. He gets up on the stump and talks about the "murder" of unborn children. ←BenB4 17:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Disparaging
Why do people think that
- saying someone uses cocaine
- saying someone has illegitimate kids
- saying someone is a fraud
- saying blacks are 95% criminal
isn't disparaging? I suppose next we'll be hearing from this crowd that burning a cross on someone's lawn is just a friendly welcoming gesture. 209.77.205.2 14:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know why the adjective "disparaging" is being removed. It appears to be a valid description of the comments. Jogurney 03:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agree. Tvoz |talk 03:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree the comments are disparaging, but I also see the other side. It is arguably a violation of npov to state that they were disparaging, but no reasonable person could read those comments and think otherwise (however, "reasonable person" is a Supreme Court-like standard, not a standard for content on Wikipedia). I also believe Ron Paul's story of how the comments ended up in his newsletter (well, it is obvious that the comments are out of touch with the rest of his record, though some reference to the comments needs to be included because his opponents have brought this up constantly throughout this campaign). Life, Liberty, Property 04:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Agree. Tvoz |talk 03:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Please protect or semi-protect this page, as I find the similarity to the name RuPaul quite humorous and intend to continue vandalising it. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.161.191.3 (talk) 07:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'd rather just block you so as to still allow other unregistered users the ability to edit the page. El_C 07:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
What do I have to do (or how long do I have to wait) to edit a page when it is semi-protected. I would like to do some copy-editing. RyuPaulie 00:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- If you edit from your account while the IP is blocked, that will be block evasion, and your account will be blocked as well. Just wait it out. Georgewilliamherbert 03:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- I added the semiprotection template that's on George W. Bush because the RuPaul vandal doesn't seem to want to go away. Hopefully it won't have to be permanent. But to address the original question, I think it's four days an account has to exist before you can edit semiprotected articles? Rompe 04:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Kucinich
After reading those positions and claims in the intro, it's not hard to imagine why he hasn't got further in the polls even after "winning" debates. He's the conservative Dennis Kucinich! Rompe 08:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but unless you can find a source that says it, we can't put it in. ←BenB4 17:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps he's not, since he has around 100 times the support Kucinich has. And yeah I don't see where to put it in either. Megastealer 06:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I happen to agree with this assessment, but without a link to a credible source making the connection, it would have no place in the article. Even then, I'd be wary since it's often better to let positions speak for themselves. Narco 17:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, there is a comparison you might be able to cite - but not with Kucinich. Jon Stewart (or was it Colbert?) has made some passing references comparing Paul's level of support to Mike Gravell, and Giuliani appeared on Hannity & Colmes after tonight's debate and made a joke about having a Paul-Gravell debate, how it would be very entertaining with "lots of booing". I also believe I heard Bill O'Reilly compare them once. FWIW. --Schrei 05:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Rather nice article
As a Ron Paul supporter myself, I gotta say, this is a very well done article, certainly deserving of its GA status. (Especially with a few minor....adjustments i've made :D ) I've got a few comments though, there's some things I can't fix easily, (Especially because i'm not amazingly familiar with the article and how it has been constructed/referenced) and because the article is so expansive, I figured it wouldn't hurt to bring them out in the open. First of all, I notice there's at least one YouTube video as a reference. I don't know exactly how the YouTube or video website as a source thing works, but last I checked, things like that are never to be used as a reference except in the most amazing of circumstances, and I don't know if this is one or not, (It looks like a very well done video) but if there's no justification for it, the three instances I saw it cited need to be covered by something else. Also, ref 54 seems to be a blog, but the magazine this website apparently prints isn't, is this particular link to an actual blog post, (Which would make it a very poor reference indeed) or to an excerpt of an actual article from the magazine? The distinction is important, if its just a blog post, it should be replaced by something better. And that was about all I noticed on my look-through. Homestarmy 01:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- If I recall, for the YouTube interview we had a few alternative news article sources (one was an NPR piece) which said pretty much the same thing but weren't as direct. Since the YouTube ref is a recording of an interview, it counts as a primary source (as opposed to just someone vlogging which wouldn't be acceptable.) Ref. 54 is a blog, but the policy in WP:RS says, "Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control; that is, when it isn't really a blog." Since the author of the post is an associate editor of Reason, I think that applies. ←BenB4 02:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Featured Article Candidacy
How about it? Does somebody want to give it a touch up and then submit it for FAC? Miserlou 00:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe, but fix this first: Early in the article it says he has 18 grandchildren, later on it says "accompanied by one of his 17 grandchildren." --Golbez 01:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Easy to explain: The article that mentions that was written in 2001, when he did indeed have only 17 grandchildren. The 18th didn't come along until this year, it seems. It could be changed to just "grandchildren" or "one of his 17 older grandchildren."--Gloriamarie 03:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
---Fixed. FAC it, somebody? Miserlou 19:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Err, that might be a bit of a problem, as I understand it, people at FAC tend to get real skeptical when it comes to articles that have the potential to rapidly shift in content in the near future. I'm not saying you can't try it, but I don't think it will be a shoe-in either. Homestarmy 21:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. It's not that there's anything wrong with the article (far from it), but stability is one of the criteria used when judging FACs. Barack Obama is a featured article because it became one waaay back in 2004. And I can guarantee it wouldn't be on the main page until about 2010 if featured to avoid the appearance of bias or an attempt to influence the election. Narco 06:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Capital punishment and various religious topics
Does anyone have a date for this interview? Presumably it was this year(?) ←BenB4 17:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It was after May 15 of this year, because the host talks about how misinformed he thinks Giuliani was in the South Carolina debate when he interrupted.--Gloriamarie 23:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Newsletter discussion
This is an obvious attempt to add some irrelevant piece of information to try to tarnish Paul. The article is from 1992, and as admitted later in the paragraph, Paul didn't even write it, apologized for it, and never has he said or written anything remotely similar to this. The paragraph is really useless, and a lame use of wikipedia to try to make some political statement.
I vote for removing it. Should I go ahead and do it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.67.217.125 (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- No, I say keep it. If this is the best that the anti-Ron Paul people can come up with, then it actually makes Ron Paul look better. He didn't have anything to do with it and was still man enough to accept responsibility. It makes him look better. Now if you want real scandals, just look at Hilary or Guilinni! 199.102.39.65 18:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- If you check the Talk archives, you will see extensive discussion of this point. The conclusion was that the newsletter represents a notable controversy, and the short summary currently included in the article does not place undue weight on it. If you disagree, I'm open to further discussion on the matter. Best regards. Jogurney 18:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I don't think it's a notable controversy. But I (and probably others) went along with it because it makes Ron Paul look even better. 24.14.76.94 02:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
"Winning" debates
Unscientific call-in/online post-debate polls are designed to make advertising and text-message money, not to be representative of the facts. I'm not a fan of Sean Hannity, but he and Alan Colmes made a good point last night about the "Paulites" trying to rig "debate winner" polls. In the post-debate coverage, the professional pollster guy (I forgot his name) showed that a mixed room of likely voters clearly favored Mike Huckabee in the exchange Paul and Huckabee had, and Giuliani was seen as the biggest "disappointment" of the night... yet the "U-vote" poll showed Paul by far in first followed by Giuliani. Anyone who's browsed YouTube videos has seen the repeated spam "VOTE FOR RON PAUL AT XYZ LET'S HELP RAISE AWARENESS" - so why are these polls included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.129.43.168 (talk) 21:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- Description of the poll results are included because they are accurately sourced, even if the polls are obviously unscientific measurements of how the electorate intends to vote. The best thing to do would be to include sourced descriptions of claims that some of Paul's supporters might vote early and often in these polls. For instance, according to CNN's "Political Ticker Team," regarding a GOP debate back in June and a CNN poll that followed it:
- These informal polls are unscientific because supporters can often vote more than once, and are not randomly selected, and while they may be useful indicator of a candidate’s ability to organize online, they are not generally an accurate measure of support across the electorate.
- ...the strain on resources that night prompted us to take down the “Who won the GOP debate” question (though that didn’t stop Paul supporters from commenting; they started adding comments to the “Who won the Democratic debate?” post)....
- Or see ABC News, which said this back in May:
- So are the polls missing a Paul boomlet? ... Not likely. What's more likely, based on Web traffic over the past week, is that Paul supporters have mastered the art of "viral marketing," using Internet savvy and blog postings to create at least the perception of momentum for his long-shot presidential bid.
- --Proper tea is theft 21:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, it should be noted that a "mixed room of likely voters" is also not scientific; no one knows if they will actually vote, and by self-selecting themselves for a focus group, any poll done of their opinions is not scientific by definition, the same as a text message poll.--Gloriamarie 22:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, actually the "scientific" polls are not very scientific either. People lie on those, may not have enough information to make a decision, or may not answer. They poll people for those things through telemarketing. You can't trust those polls results either because the pollsters can use biased questions (which is called push polling), because the people answering are probably not a true representative sample (people who value privacy are less likely to take polls because they're probably on the Do Not Call List), and they are often "weighted" so as to achieve the desired result (in Europe, the so-called far-right candidates polled far lower than expected a few years ago because the pollsters didn't think they had as much support as they really did, so they weighted the polls in favor of the other candidates, a big reason why Le Pen making it to the 2nd round in France's 2002 presidential election was such a surprise). No form of polling is reliable enough to be called "scientific." For all we know, the crowd sizes could be correct and Ron Paul could be the frontrunner and Fred Thompson the fringe candidate. Life, Liberty, Property 02:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The Jean-Marie Le Pen situation wasn't the fault of pollsters; Le Pen voters actually had a tendency to say they would vote for someone else (out of embarrassment, it is presumed) and then actually vote for Le Pen. This year, the opposite happened-- polls upped Le Pen's numbers because they thought his support was underestimated due to that phenomenon and then he polled lower. But yes, the telephone polls aren't scientific, either.--Gloriamarie 07:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Internet popularity
Why do we need an entire section devoted to his Internet popularity (especially since this is a subset of his campaign article)? Yes, I agree his popularlity his notable, but an entire section? And the section essentially follows this format: Paul is popular on website A. Paul is also popular on website B. Furthermore, Paul is popular on website C. Additionally, Paul is popular on website D. Can't this be summarized in a single paragraph--Daveswagon 06:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've actually had the same feeling for a while now. He does have a decent sized Internet following, which is probably how it got into Wikipedia (cf. self-fulfilling prophecy and WP:BIAS :P), but I'll leave it up to other editors. Narco 22:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
...I took out a couple things like how many MySpace friends he has. To be blunt, we don't care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.201.56.15 (talk) 22:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
To be blunt, in a section called "Internet Popularity," that may very well be relevant.--Gloriamarie 07:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Anon was pointing to the very part that came to my mind, actually. It's not that it's not relevant as much as it's not of sufficient importance for inclusion in the main article. I can live with the Internet popularity section as it stands right now unless something earth-shattering happens to his campaign that would relegate things like YouTube to the main campaign article. Narco 13:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Articles like Hillary Clinton's don't make mention of every straw poll she is leading, so why should Paul have every website mentioned that he tops?--Daveswagon 03:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I really don't care either way whether this section is in the main article; I'm willing to go with the consensus. An argument could be made that his "Internet popularity" has gotten him more attention than he ever had before, so it is one of the most noteworthy things about him. An argument could also be made that it is part of his campaign so it belongs in his spinoff Presidential campaign article.--Gloriamarie 17:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Political positions section
- Note: if you have arrived here from the dispute box, the alternate version is shown on this diff.
Why was the summary of the legislation Paul has introduced and the list of agencies he has said he would abolish removed from the political positions section? ←BenB4 00:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Because it's a summary. Turtlescrubber 00:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I do not believe his positions can be accurately described without a brief summary of the Sanctity of Life Act and the We the People Act, which are far better indicators of his positions than his speeches. Therefore, I have added a {{POV}} tag. I note that those summaries stood for weeks without objection -- why now? ←BenB4 00:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why now or why then, that's beside the point and is quite irrelevant to this conversation. How about because people hadn't noticed the slow sprawl. Turtlescrubber 00:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I hadn't looked at the article in a few weeks, and when I returned, I was surprised at how bad the Political Positions section had gotten. It focused on only a few issues, including two full paragraphs on two single pieces of legislation. It was not written in a summary style. Just because something has been bad for a few weeks does not mean it should continue to be.--Gloriamarie 07:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Including his statements about himself when they conflict with the legislation he has introduced is a gross violation of the foundational WP:NPOV policy. There are other sections which are longer and WP:SUMMARY does not mandate a maximum length. I can point to featured articles with summary sections more than twice as long, for example Plug-in hybrid#History. Unless you can show that a policy or guideline supports your action, I shall be reverting. ←BenB4 00:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Summary style" is pretty self-explanatory; the section focused on abortion and other seemingly minor issues such as capital punishement, etc. to a great extent (when that has not been a large part of Paul's legislative career). For example, it mentioned one vote against funding same-sex adoption, while not mentioning that he votes against almost all federal funding. In contrast, look at Jeff Flake's article, which goes in depth at how he goes against spending, while barely mentioning abortion... because that's what Flake's known for, and it's the same case with Ron Paul. Deciding whether his statements about himself conflict with introduced legislation-- without a secondary source to back it up-- is original research and not something that's done on Wikipedia.--Gloriamarie 07:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The article that the positions section is supposed to be "summarizing" has a total of 43 substantive sections. How can you say that abortion is a minor issue? What other issue has resulted in a dozen bombings in the U.S. over the past few decades? Likewise with capital punishment and gay rights issues. You may think that hard currency and the abolition of the income tax are more important, but the people who decide what goes into U.S. news articles do not agree. ←BenB4 08:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Abortion is a major issue for Americans in general, yes. But it's not the only one. What about education? Social Security? Healthcare? Ron Paul has never made abortion a large issue until this year, when he started speaking out about it more. He has spoken about other issues at much more length.--Gloriamarie 08:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- His opposition to federal involvement in education is in there, "allowing workers to opt out of Social Security" is in there, his positions for defederalizing health care and opposition to universal health care are in there. Perhaps he has only been talking about abortion this year, but the bills concerning it are from 2005. ←BenB4 08:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- That barely touches his beliefs on those issues. What about the numerous tax credits he's proposed for those wanting to contribute to public education? What about the fact that he's said he's one of the few (perhaps the only) member of Congress who has never voted to spend funds from the Social Security account on other projects? What about free market health care? "Defederalizing" doesn't say much, and I don't even know what that means. He does NOT have an opposition to "universal health care" but just to socialized health care; he believes that with a return to free market health care and getting the gov. and insurance companies out of it, poor people would be able to afford coverage at even less of a price than they would pay now with "full coverage."--Gloriamarie 18:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Have his proposed tax credits ever made it into a bill? We already say he opposes spending. I don't know what defedealizing means either; someone else put it in. He has specifically said that he's opposed to universal health care. Where has he ever said he wants to get the "insurance companies out of it"? ←BenB4 09:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- That barely touches his beliefs on those issues. What about the numerous tax credits he's proposed for those wanting to contribute to public education? What about the fact that he's said he's one of the few (perhaps the only) member of Congress who has never voted to spend funds from the Social Security account on other projects? What about free market health care? "Defederalizing" doesn't say much, and I don't even know what that means. He does NOT have an opposition to "universal health care" but just to socialized health care; he believes that with a return to free market health care and getting the gov. and insurance companies out of it, poor people would be able to afford coverage at even less of a price than they would pay now with "full coverage."--Gloriamarie 18:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- His opposition to federal involvement in education is in there, "allowing workers to opt out of Social Security" is in there, his positions for defederalizing health care and opposition to universal health care are in there. Perhaps he has only been talking about abortion this year, but the bills concerning it are from 2005. ←BenB4 08:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Abortion is a major issue for Americans in general, yes. But it's not the only one. What about education? Social Security? Healthcare? Ron Paul has never made abortion a large issue until this year, when he started speaking out about it more. He has spoken about other issues at much more length.--Gloriamarie 08:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The article that the positions section is supposed to be "summarizing" has a total of 43 substantive sections. How can you say that abortion is a minor issue? What other issue has resulted in a dozen bombings in the U.S. over the past few decades? Likewise with capital punishment and gay rights issues. You may think that hard currency and the abolition of the income tax are more important, but the people who decide what goes into U.S. news articles do not agree. ←BenB4 08:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Summary style" is pretty self-explanatory; the section focused on abortion and other seemingly minor issues such as capital punishement, etc. to a great extent (when that has not been a large part of Paul's legislative career). For example, it mentioned one vote against funding same-sex adoption, while not mentioning that he votes against almost all federal funding. In contrast, look at Jeff Flake's article, which goes in depth at how he goes against spending, while barely mentioning abortion... because that's what Flake's known for, and it's the same case with Ron Paul. Deciding whether his statements about himself conflict with introduced legislation-- without a secondary source to back it up-- is original research and not something that's done on Wikipedia.--Gloriamarie 07:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Including his statements about himself when they conflict with the legislation he has introduced is a gross violation of the foundational WP:NPOV policy. There are other sections which are longer and WP:SUMMARY does not mandate a maximum length. I can point to featured articles with summary sections more than twice as long, for example Plug-in hybrid#History. Unless you can show that a policy or guideline supports your action, I shall be reverting. ←BenB4 00:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I do not believe his positions can be accurately described without a brief summary of the Sanctity of Life Act and the We the People Act, which are far better indicators of his positions than his speeches. Therefore, I have added a {{POV}} tag. I note that those summaries stood for weeks without objection -- why now? ←BenB4 00:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I note that the revision contains "He supports revising the military 'don't ask, don't tell' policy to expel members with heterosexual as well as homosexual behavior issues," which is absolutely not supported by the cited source. And "Paul votes against most federal spending," for which there is no source even though one was requested months ago. ←BenB4 06:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ron Paul does indeed support revising the military policy to expel members with sexual behavior issues regardless of whether they're straight or gay. If you want a cite, go watch the interview Ron Paul did at Google's headquarters. 24.14.76.94 20:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've watched that, twice. The current DADT policy, which he says is "decent," ejects gays from the military if they simply say they are gay. Is admitting to be gay a behavior issue? Is admitting to be heterosexual a behavior issue? He has not said he wants to revise it, he says it's "decent" as-is. ←BenB4 08:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- "I think the way it's enforced is bad." "everybody should be treated equally and they shouldn't be discriminated against because of that [homosexuality] alone." "he was kicked out for no real good reason at all. I would want to change that. I don't support that interpretation." He says that the "don't ask, don't tell" part is good, but the way the policy is enforced is bad and should be changed to focus on behavior.--Gloriamarie 08:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- See below. ←BenB4 08:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- "I think the way it's enforced is bad." "everybody should be treated equally and they shouldn't be discriminated against because of that [homosexuality] alone." "he was kicked out for no real good reason at all. I would want to change that. I don't support that interpretation." He says that the "don't ask, don't tell" part is good, but the way the policy is enforced is bad and should be changed to focus on behavior.--Gloriamarie 08:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've watched that, twice. The current DADT policy, which he says is "decent," ejects gays from the military if they simply say they are gay. Is admitting to be gay a behavior issue? Is admitting to be heterosexual a behavior issue? He has not said he wants to revise it, he says it's "decent" as-is. ←BenB4 08:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Paul votes against most federal spending" is one of the easiest statements to back up with sources on Wikipedia. There are numerous sources already included in the article which explicitly mention this. Here is one example. (Click on "Other Facts.") Here is another. Here is Paul himself saying it.--Gloriamarie 07:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for but The National Taxpayer's Union grades all congressmen on their responsible tax and spending policies. Ron Paul won NTU's "Taxpayers' Friend Award". In fact, out of 535 members, Ron Paul came in second. http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=96 24.14.76.94 20:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- OK, I looked up the Google video. Ron Paul is asked if he was elected President, will he revoke 'don't ask, don't tell'?
- This was his reply:
- "I answered this question on national TV and I started off by being very - well, not very - but at least sympathetic to this idea. 'Don't ask, don't tell' doesn't sound all that bad to me and I think that's what you're referring to. It doesn't sound all that bad because I think as an employer which I've been, I've talked to people and I've never asked them anything and I don't want them to tell me anything.
- "But the important thing is what I said was I don't see rights as gay rights, woman's rights, minority rights. I see only one kind of rights, the individual. The individual has their right to their life and liberty and everybody should be treated equally.
- "So when it comes to the military, I talked about disruptive sexual behavior and quite frankly there's probably a lot more heterosexual disruptive behavior in the military than gay disruptive behavior. So I would say that everyone should be treated equally and they shouldn't be discriminated against because of that alone which means those words aren't offensive to me. 'Don't ask, don't tell' doesn't sound so bad.
- "I think the way it's enforced is bad because literally if somebody is a very, very good individual working for our military and I met one just the other day in my office who was a translator and he was kicked out for no real good reason at all. I would want to change that. I don't support that interpretation."
- It's about 35:15 into the interview.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCM_wQy4YVg 24.14.76.94 21:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Where do you get that he wants to revise the policy? If he doesn't say it, then the assumption that he does is original research. ←BenB4 07:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- He says in the words above^ that he wants it to apply to heterosexual behavior as well; the policy does not currently apply to heterosexual behavior, and actually is not based on behavior. Therefore, by saying that that's what it should cover, he is saying it should be revised while not explicitly saying the words "I would revise the policy." By saying that everyone should be treated equally and no one discriminated against, he is also calling for a change in the policy, which currently singles out gay military members only. He thinks it should be based on behavior, heterosexual or homosexual, and should remain "don't ask, don't tell," in that people of both orientations should keep quiet about their personal lives and not inquire into others'. No original research is needed on this one. He also said this in a debate and in the audio you linked to further up the talk page.--Gloriamarie 07:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The words "apply" or "revise" or any of their synonyms do not appear in what he said. What do you think he is going to revise it to, that you get kicked out if you say you're heterosexual? ←BenB4 08:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- No, he specifically says in the case of the Arabic translator, that the policy is enforced in a bad way and should focus on behavior (heterosexual or homosexual) rather than just orientation as it currently is.--Gloriamarie 08:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- He says he wants to change the way it is enforced. But that it is a decent policy and as an employer he never asked and didn't want to be told. So he's not opposed to prohibiting disclosure of homosexuality, but he wants to make the penalty smaller. We can say that. ←BenB4 08:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- No, he specifically says in the case of the Arabic translator, that the policy is enforced in a bad way and should focus on behavior (heterosexual or homosexual) rather than just orientation as it currently is.--Gloriamarie 08:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The words "apply" or "revise" or any of their synonyms do not appear in what he said. What do you think he is going to revise it to, that you get kicked out if you say you're heterosexual? ←BenB4 08:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- He says in the words above^ that he wants it to apply to heterosexual behavior as well; the policy does not currently apply to heterosexual behavior, and actually is not based on behavior. Therefore, by saying that that's what it should cover, he is saying it should be revised while not explicitly saying the words "I would revise the policy." By saying that everyone should be treated equally and no one discriminated against, he is also calling for a change in the policy, which currently singles out gay military members only. He thinks it should be based on behavior, heterosexual or homosexual, and should remain "don't ask, don't tell," in that people of both orientations should keep quiet about their personal lives and not inquire into others'. No original research is needed on this one. He also said this in a debate and in the audio you linked to further up the talk page.--Gloriamarie 07:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Where do you get that he wants to revise the policy? If he doesn't say it, then the assumption that he does is original research. ←BenB4 07:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
2004 election
The article says Paul spoke at the libertarian convention, did he endorse the Libertarin candidate? Did he ever endorse George W. Bush?
Hoponpop69 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I cannot find any source saying he did either of these things. George W. Bush campaigned against Ron Paul in the 1996 Congressional election Republican primary; from all indications, they were never buddy-buddy although they are from the same state. Paul also ran against Bush's father for president in 1988, if that has any bearing.--Gloriamarie 04:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
RFC on positions
Template:RFCpol An issue has arisen as to whether the Ron Paul#Political positions section should include a description of the legislation Paul has introduced which conflicts with some of his stated positions. Should it? ←BenB4 07:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
First of all, you would need a reliable source stating that his legislation conflicts with some of his stated positions, or you are firmly in Original Research Land.--Gloriamarie 07:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- No I am not suggesting that we state in the article that the legislation conflicts with his positions. I think we should describe what the legislation says and let people decide for themselves. You have spent quite a bit of time trying to convince me he is not anything more than "personally" opposed to abortion even though he says on his campaign web site that he's "an unshakable foe," so I am not at all surprised that you don't want to describe the legislation he has introduced that would define embryos as legally equivalent to people and remove jurisdiction over abortion from the federal courts. ←BenB4 08:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that can't be included. It should be in the Political positions of Ron Paul article, and abortion should not be the focus of the summary section in this main article. With 45 sections, abortion only being one of them, why is abortion and specific legislation relating to it mentioned in two or three of the paragraphs of the version you prefer, when other things that he's spent considerable time in Congress on, such as education or healthcare (one example: the Health Freedom Protection Act), are not mentioned at all? The summary section should summarize the full linked article, not serve as a section almost solely focusing on abortion or any other issue. The "unshakable foe" quote also seems to be a new addition on his website.--Gloriamarie 08:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- It already says he wants to defederalize health care in the first paragraph of the positions section, and the Health Freedom Protection Act isn't even mentioned in Political positions of Ron Paul so it's not likely to appear in the summary. The We the People Act and the Sanctity of Live Act are interesting specifically because they conflict with his supposed libertarianism. Plus, do you think that wanting to forbid the federal courts from spending any money to enforce their judgments is less important than anything he's said about health care? ←BenB4 08:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- They're not at conflict if you understand that Ron Paul is a constitutionalist. According to the US Constitution, most powers are delegated to the states and the people. The federal government is supposed to have very limited power. 24.14.76.94 15:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The Health Freedom Protection Act actually is mentioned in Political positions of Ron Paul, just not by name: "He opposes government regulation of vitamins and minerals, including Codex Alimentarius (some proposals he opposes would require a prescription for vitamins).[18]"--Gloriamarie 19:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose there is a lot of legislation that isn't mentioned by name, but we have had an article on the We the People Act since January 2006. ←BenB4 11:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- It's really more of a stub; there was almost as much written in this article on the Act as in its own article!--Gloriamarie 13:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is a stub, but it has seven times as many sentences as the description here. ←BenB4; 02:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm talking about the description of the bill, not the full article.--Gloriamarie 03:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is a stub, but it has seven times as many sentences as the description here. ←BenB4; 02:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- It's really more of a stub; there was almost as much written in this article on the Act as in its own article!--Gloriamarie 13:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose there is a lot of legislation that isn't mentioned by name, but we have had an article on the We the People Act since January 2006. ←BenB4 11:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- It already says he wants to defederalize health care in the first paragraph of the positions section, and the Health Freedom Protection Act isn't even mentioned in Political positions of Ron Paul so it's not likely to appear in the summary. The We the People Act and the Sanctity of Live Act are interesting specifically because they conflict with his supposed libertarianism. Plus, do you think that wanting to forbid the federal courts from spending any money to enforce their judgments is less important than anything he's said about health care? ←BenB4 08:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that can't be included. It should be in the Political positions of Ron Paul article, and abortion should not be the focus of the summary section in this main article. With 45 sections, abortion only being one of them, why is abortion and specific legislation relating to it mentioned in two or three of the paragraphs of the version you prefer, when other things that he's spent considerable time in Congress on, such as education or healthcare (one example: the Health Freedom Protection Act), are not mentioned at all? The summary section should summarize the full linked article, not serve as a section almost solely focusing on abortion or any other issue. The "unshakable foe" quote also seems to be a new addition on his website.--Gloriamarie 08:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul did not refute the allegation that he would eliminate it if given the opportunity
In the political positions section, it says "During the September 5, 2007 Republican debate, the CIA was included in a similar list cited by moderator Chris Wallace. Paul did not refute the allegation that he would eliminate it if given the opportunity." The word "allegation" gives a negative connotation to eliminating the CIA and violates NPO. This sentence should be revised or removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.76.94 (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
For this reason and many others, I have placed an Unbalanced tag on that section. Any attempts to improve the section have been reverted by one editor. Here is a list of the problems with that section:
- Emphasis on relatively unimportant positions, said in a way that is not indicative of the subject's true position on the issue. As an example, school prayer is presented third in the section and given in a misleading way. I have changed its description before to "unofficial and voluntary school prayer" or to "forms of free speech such as voluntary school prayer", and these have been reverted. The article "school prayer" links to says in the first paragraph that it refers to official government-sponsored school prayer, which is why I had inserted the "unofficial." It would be more accurate and summarizing of the main article to say that he supports free speech, even when others may disagree with what is being said. Why is jury nullification mentioned when his position on the income tax is mentioned only briefly? Why is the "don't ask, don't tell" policy mentioned, but his position that almost the only federal spending he never votes against is for veterans (healthcare and benefits and the like) is not mentioned at all? Which is actually more important? I'm not saying DADT shouldn't be included, but it has been presented in a misleading way (attempting to say that he supports the current policy) and is presented over other, more important veterans' and military issues.
- The comical emphasis on abortion is weird and brings down the quality of the article. Abortion is mentioned in the opening paragraphs of the article, along with four separate instances in four different paragraphs in this "summary," far and above anything else, including two full paragraphs on two specific pieces of legislation. This section is supposed to summarize. Full paragraphs on any individual piece of legislation are not appropriate (except for perhaps the Iraq War resolution or something of that scope.)
- Vague statements such as "defederalizing health care." What does that mean? When has he said it? He has instead called for a return to free market health care, but said at the same time that Medicare would still exist and be paid for by all the money saved from not getting involved in unnecessary wars. This phrase seems to imply the opposite.
- As the editor above noted, the Colbert Report information paragraph is presented in a completely NPOV manner. Simply saying, "Paul would eliminate most of the federal government" would suffice. Saying the debate thing about the CIA without giving Paul's answer (we spend a lot on the FBI now, and it is very inefficient) is not NPOV. This is presented in other areas in the section (such as wanting to withdraw from NATO) and the reason he gives for his position on these international organizations (national sovereignty) has been removed for reasons given of "it's common for politicians to believe in national sovereignty." In a section of political positions, positions should be things he's stated or voted on, not things he has "not denied" opposing. That seems silly. There used to be an entire, well-written paragraph on his oft-cited opposition to the income tax, but it also has been removed when I put it back in. That is what he has made his primary goal in office to be, lower taxes and reduce the size of the federal government, but from this section you would think he's an abortion activist or something.--Gloriamarie 18:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I concur. The new focus of this section is perplexing at best. Jogurney 22:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
How, exactly, is the factual accuracy of the Political positions section disputed?--Gloriamarie 11:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Firstly, the statement, "He supports revising enforcement of the military 'don't ask, don't tell' policy to expel members with heterosexual as well as homosexual behavior issues," is incorrect. The only context in which he has discussed changing the enforcement of the policy, and not the policy itself which he calls "decent," he was complaining that expulsion was too harsh a penalty. Moreover, the UCMJ already has penalties for sexual behavior since the 1800s, so saying he wants to add them is redundant. Secondly, the statement that he supports "forms of free speech such as voluntary school prayer" is unsupported because we have no source for him supporting another "form" of free speech. Thirdly, we agree that we don't understand what "defederalizing health care" means and it is not supported by any source. Fourthly, "he says such issues should be handled at the state level," referring to abortion, conflicts with the federal legislation he has introduced. ←BenB4 11:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any facts that are incorrect. If he says expulsion (the current penalty) is too harsh, he's wanting to change enforcement. He also said it should focus on behavior, which it does not, and it should apply to both orientations equally, which it does not. At the very least, it is evident that he wants to change enforcement. He's mentioned this multiple times-- in a debate, at Google headquarters, and there is at least one other time. Whether it's redundant or not, that's what he says, so that's what his position is. Whether you agree with it or not is not the case at hand. There are many cases of him supporting forms of free speech even if he does not agree with what is being said-- examples would be the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act and a proposed flag-burning amendment]. Whether it conflicts with his legislation is your personal opinion; others may not see it that way, and the legislation in question allowed states to decide rather than federal courts.--Gloriamarie 13:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have a source saying he wants to change the expulsion policy? The only source mentioning it says he thinks it is too harsh, not that he wants to expand it. ←BenB4 18:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I said nothing about expanding it. He in fact said that expulsion solely on the basis of orientation was not something he would support. Unless changing it to behavior-based would cover more people, he didn't say anything about expansion.--Gloriamarie 03:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have a source saying he wants to change the expulsion policy? The only source mentioning it says he thinks it is too harsh, not that he wants to expand it. ←BenB4 18:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any facts that are incorrect. If he says expulsion (the current penalty) is too harsh, he's wanting to change enforcement. He also said it should focus on behavior, which it does not, and it should apply to both orientations equally, which it does not. At the very least, it is evident that he wants to change enforcement. He's mentioned this multiple times-- in a debate, at Google headquarters, and there is at least one other time. Whether it's redundant or not, that's what he says, so that's what his position is. Whether you agree with it or not is not the case at hand. There are many cases of him supporting forms of free speech even if he does not agree with what is being said-- examples would be the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act and a proposed flag-burning amendment]. Whether it conflicts with his legislation is your personal opinion; others may not see it that way, and the legislation in question allowed states to decide rather than federal courts.--Gloriamarie 13:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
refute
Not entering into the merits here. Whatever happens, please, in any case let's use the word refute correctly. Refute does not mean deny; it means prove false. I suspect that the point being made is not that Paul failed to disprove the claim, but only that he did not deny it. --Trovatore 19:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's get this article featured on the main page =)
Get to work folks, =)--0pos0sop 00:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I mentioned above that featuring this on the main page would be inappropriate until the election cycle has finished. It may be possible to promote the article once disagreements are resolved, but probably for the same reason you want it on the main page (more attention for his campaign), I think that would be the wrong thing to do since WP is supposed to be neutral. Narco 01:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it probably shouldn't be featured on the main page, but there's still no reason it can't be taken to featured article quality. A few sections need rewriting, but it's come a long way in a relatively short period of time (the past six months or so). Good work, editors.--Gloriamarie 02:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
It is not stable and in dispute because Gloriamarie, who proudly proclaims her support for Paul on her userpage, thinks we should include what he says about himself but not the conflicting legislation he has introduced. Clearly this is headed to mediation, so I doubt it would make a good FAC. ←BenB4 06:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- What conflicting legislation? I've talked with you about things like this before and everytime there was no conflict; you didn't understand what Paul was talking about? 24.14.76.94 12:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
At least two other editors have agreed with me, so don't blame that on me. I'm just working to make the article better. You have likewise proudly proclaimed your non-support for Ron Paul, but I don't see what that has to do with it-- edits and whether they are 1.) neutral and well-sourced, and 2.) improve the article, are what count. Just because I'm a vegetarian doesn't mean I can't edit the article on vegetarianism, if my contributions improve the content and are neutral and well-sourced.--Gloriamarie 06:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- User GloriaMarie is a constructive editor on this page. While Gloria and I don't share our politics, we both constructively try and improve this article.
It's a shame we cant say the same about you, Benb4.Now stop attacking people who don't share your same political views.Turtlescrubber 13:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
It's really not a good idea to delete other users' comments on talk pages. Turtlescrubber was only telling you not to attack me; that is not a personal attack in and of itself.--Gloriamarie 13:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, right. And telling someone to stop beating their wife doesn't imply that they have been? Pointing out your obvious conflict of interest as evidenced by your user-page advocacy and disregard for WP:NPOV is not an attack. ←BenB4 14:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- You have now resorted to two personal attacks against me; my edits are always NPOV. Please cease and desist. Of the two of us, my edits are the ones conforming to the neutrality policy, and yours are not.--Gloriamarie 17:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I've explained this before: Calling someone's edits biased is not a personal attack. What would it be like if we weren't allowed to call out biased edits? The same goes for conflicts of interest. ←BenB4 17:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- You have now resorted to two personal attacks against me; my edits are always NPOV. Please cease and desist. Of the two of us, my edits are the ones conforming to the neutrality policy, and yours are not.--Gloriamarie 17:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with GloriaMarie on her entries. I don't know why everything Ben is writing has to centre around abortion, perhaps he would prefer to hang around the Abortion pages and write about useless things there instead? Gloria's version (I hope you don't mind me calling you that) of the page was a lot better than the hoo har Ben wrote. You should not be making personal attacks on other editors as this is not the place to do them, secondly your opinions are as neutral as George Bush's on the Iraq war. I am British and the pages on Ron Paul (who even I think should be president, if only I could vote!!) have taught me a lot about him and his campaign. He is the type of guy we need more of, especially here in England where political correctness and everyone's "rights" have blighted the lives of many because people are too worried about their political face to stand up for what is right. That is something Ron Paul does and Gloria has shown this in her writing over many subjects. 80.74.247.74 13:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The dispute is not centered around abortion. Only one paragraph of the disputed portions involves abortion, and as Paul has chosen to campaign so strongly on it, and the issue makes headlines all the time, what's wrong with a single paragraph? I'm much more upset that the description of the We the People Act was removed. ←BenB4 14:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The We the People Act paragraph, however, mentioned abortion, the beginning paragraphs mention it, and it appeared in four separate instances in your version. Your version had an odd focus on abortion at the expense of every other issue. It was not a single paragraph. Why the insistence on a full paragraph on one piece of legislation in a summary, when that bill doesn't even merit a longer article than it has?--Gloriamarie 17:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Again, abortion is a huge issue:
- http://www.google.com/search?q=abortion+United.States 3,700,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=foreign.policy+United.States 3,500,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=free.trade+United.States 2,800,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=tax.reform+United.States 2,240,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=free.speech+United.States 2,020,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=capital.punishment+United.States 1,880,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=gun.control+United.States 1,740,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=gold.standard+United.States 1,700,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=balanced.budget+United.States 1,240,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=war.on.drugs+United.States 1,220,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=federal.spending+United.States 828,000 hits
- http://www.google.com/search?q=states'.rights+United.States 800,000 hits
- As for the WTPA, it encompasses abortion. Is there any other of his bills that we have an article on? ←BenB4 18:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Again, abortion is a huge issue:
Google hits are actually usually not a good measure of relative notability, as evidenced by a comparison of a teen idol (2,190,000 hits) vs. a two-time Nobel Prize-winning scientist who invented the transistor, came up with the BCS theory of superconductivity and changed modern life as almost everyone knows it (327,000 hits). Some things are just more likely to be mentioned on websites; that doesn't necessarily make them more notable. It only means they're more likely to be featured on a website.--Gloriamarie 02:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thank goodness scientists aren't selected by people voting on their telephones from their couch. The number of pages on a subject has some relation to how often people write about it, and in turn to how important they think it is. ←BenB4 02:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Which proves my point: by any measure, John Bardeen is more notable than almost anyone, yet he has a fraction of total hits on Google than someone who has made two Disney movies. Google hits do not necessarily equal notability, just that certain people are more likely to have a website made about them, by teen girls or by anyone else.--Gloriamarie 03:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Capital punishment
Paul recently said capital punishment is okay for some crimes, without saying anything about the "federal level."[11] However, several sites refer to Paul as anti-capital punishment but without a source, including LouDobbs.com. Is there such a source? ←BenB4 16:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, he specifically metnioned in that interview that he doesn't think the federal government has it together enough to be administering the ultimate penalty, and states should be able to decide for themselves. In other words, pretty much his decision on everything.--Gloriamarie 17:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
To update: yes, there are many such sources throughout the years. The Associated Press said in an article released August 3, 2007: "He opposes the death penalty." (see page 2) Also, it should be added that in the above radio interview, he left it up to states decide but did not say what their decision should be, just that he thinks murder is deserving of the "ultimate penalty"-- yet, there are many people who believe that murderers should be executed but don't support it in practice because the government just can't get it done right. So, it's not really clear whether he supports it at the state level or not; the only thing for sure from that interview is that he thinks states should decide just as on most issues.--Gloriamarie 04:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Link to hard currency in second paragraph
This link doesn't make perfect sense, since the main definition of "hard currency" in its article includes the U.S. dollar as an example. Clearly, Paul means something like a metallic standard (right?), so I wonder if a different link would be less ambiguous. "Hard currency" does say it can also mean a metallic standard, but that is not the main subject of the article. I don't know enough about Paul's politics to correct it, but perhaps somebody else could, if he has made a more specific statement regarding it. Rigadoun (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
When I changed it to say "hard currency" instead of a "gold standard," it read: "hard currency such as silver or gold"; another user updated it to point to the gold and silver standard articles. BenB4 removed that with the explanation that the hard currency article already contained the definition. If that's not the case, it should be put back.--Gloriamarie 17:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Fixed. We share the blame for not reading hard currency while linking to it. ←BenB4 19:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"Dr. President"
I know this is speculating into the future and such, but if Ron Paul was actually elected president, would he be called "Dr. President" instead of "Mr. President"? TheUncleBob 19:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- I seriously doubt it. I never heard of any such honorific being applied to Woodrow Wilson, for example. Mr. President is a fixed phrase (except that if Hilary wins she'll presumably be Madam President). --Trovatore 19:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Political positions
I still do not think that a paragraph devoted to one piece of legislation is warranted. Mentioning it with a link to its article is fine of course, but a whole paragraph in a section that's supposed to serve as a summary just doesn't seem appropriate.--Gloriamarie 05:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- You were upset that abortion was mentioned four times. The work "libertarian" appears 15 times in the article, mostly in ways that imply Paul ascribes to the libertarian philosophy. The We the People Act is essential to balance that, showing his relative values of states' rights and individual liberties. Plus, it is the only piece of legislation he's introduced that we have an article on, and we've had it since January 2006. ←BenB4 09:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, considering that two days ago I came across two articles from as far back as 1988 that said that Ron Paul was the "standard bearer" for the Libertarian Party, and basically any press done on him at all mentions that he is libertarian, the word "libertarian" should actually be mentioned a few times more. The same does not hold true for abortion; he is not considered the "standard bearer" of the anti-abortion movement (and actually ranks a 65% with at least one pro-choice ratings group) because he votes against some things that someone who is "pro-life" usually would not vote for. What does "relative values of states' rights and individual liberties" even mean? The Act in question would allow states to decide for themselves on these issues. If you are trying to make the argument that he should not be considered libertarian, you will find few supporters, either among the media or among "little 'l' libertarians" in general. (Also, to keep things factual, abortion was mentioned more than four times in the article; it was mentioned four times in that section alone, including two full paragraphs-- plus a few sentences on it in the opening paragraphs and a mention in the "1988 Presidential Campaign" section.) Can you say for sure that this is the only piece of legislation he's introduced that has its own article, or actually in this case, a near-stub?--Gloriamarie 16:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- As you say, the bill "would allow states to decide for themselves" on questions such as prohibiting abortion or sex acts, abolishing current federal precedent which holds that individuals' own rights on those matters are superior to the will of the state. I could not have made the point any clearer. ←BenB4 18:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, considering that two days ago I came across two articles from as far back as 1988 that said that Ron Paul was the "standard bearer" for the Libertarian Party, and basically any press done on him at all mentions that he is libertarian, the word "libertarian" should actually be mentioned a few times more. The same does not hold true for abortion; he is not considered the "standard bearer" of the anti-abortion movement (and actually ranks a 65% with at least one pro-choice ratings group) because he votes against some things that someone who is "pro-life" usually would not vote for. What does "relative values of states' rights and individual liberties" even mean? The Act in question would allow states to decide for themselves on these issues. If you are trying to make the argument that he should not be considered libertarian, you will find few supporters, either among the media or among "little 'l' libertarians" in general. (Also, to keep things factual, abortion was mentioned more than four times in the article; it was mentioned four times in that section alone, including two full paragraphs-- plus a few sentences on it in the opening paragraphs and a mention in the "1988 Presidential Campaign" section.) Can you say for sure that this is the only piece of legislation he's introduced that has its own article, or actually in this case, a near-stub?--Gloriamarie 16:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you repeating that silly thing on how decreasing the power of the federal government is not necessarily libertarian again? Granola Bars 14:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I just came across the discussion above on the talk page about the We the People Act, and there was never any consensus to put it into the article. Here's a recap: User Jogurney said that he wonders how significant the bill was, since it never got out of committee, and suggests it appear in Political positions of Ron Paul instead. User BenB4 responds: "I haven't been able to find any reliable sources which discuss the bill, so I'm unable to say much about it." User Trovatore mediates and says that BenB4 has been putting too much of his own analysis into the article and cites two examples, and so have Paul supporters, but Trovatore can't think of any examples right then. BenB4 replies, "... in the absence of discussion in reliable sources, I'm not sure what we can say supported by the bill's text." There is also a lot of back and forth about what the bill means. BenB4, you said in the original discussion that you could find no reliable sources about the bill, and there was no consensus to put it into the article. I don't see any reason it should be included, especially to the extent of a full paragraph describing it.--Gloriamarie 17:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- That's why there's only a description of the bill, and not any discussion of its obvious implications. The text inserted doesn't say that the bill would allow states to uses taxes from Jewish people to put a nativity display in City Hall, but that's exactly what it would allow, because the only precedent against that is federal. It doesn't say that the bill would allow the states to ban abortion or sex acts or same-sex marriage, but that is exactly what it would do. It is all too obvious why you are opposed to the single, factual sentence describing the bill. You are a proud Paul supporter, and I respect that, but by letting your support for Paul influence your editing judgment as you have, you are violating Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest policy. ←BenB4 18:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- If I were editing with an agenda, I would want the article to focus completely on abortion to appeal to Republicans since he is running in the Republican primary. Other editors, on this very page, have asked why you edit without citing reliable sources and why your edits are not neutral. I consider the allegation that I let anything "influence my editing judgment" to be untrue and not backed up by the evidence of my edits.--Gloriamarie 00:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- If it focused more on abortion, it might put off the libertarians. We all have to call them as we see them. ←BenB4 02:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- If I were editing with an agenda, I would want the article to focus completely on abortion to appeal to Republicans since he is running in the Republican primary. Other editors, on this very page, have asked why you edit without citing reliable sources and why your edits are not neutral. I consider the allegation that I let anything "influence my editing judgment" to be untrue and not backed up by the evidence of my edits.--Gloriamarie 00:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am still not convinced that the We The People Act is sufficiently notable for discussion in the lead section. The amount of coverage outside of wikipedia and a few political blogs is extremely limited. Do we even have a non-political blog news source that discusses it? Jogurney 04:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think the Act is covered in the lead right now, although it was previously; the full paragraph on it in the Political Positions section has been removed. I don't think it's important enough, either, and I can't find any sources on it. It never got out of committee. I'll keep looking, though.--Gloriamarie 04:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Pro-life
So, now there is a dispute about whether it is okay to say that Paul is pro-life without including two dozen words of rambling "nuance" about the 10th Amendment which contradict his votes and the bills he has introduced to ban abortions.[12][13] I will let Dr. Paul speak for himself:
- "I am pro-life."[14]
- "I am strongly pro-life."[15]
- "As a pro-life obstetrician-gynecologist...."[16]
- "As a pro-life obstetrician-gynecologist, I am steadfastly opposed to abortion."[17]
- "Many talk about being pro-life. I have taken direct action to restore protection for the unborn."[18]
- "The right of an innocent, unborn child to life is at the heart of the American ideals of liberty. My professional and legislative record demonstrates my strong commitment to this pro-life principle."[19]
- "I sponsored the original pro-life amendment, which used a constitutional approach to solve the crisis of federalization of abortion law by the courts. The pro-life movement was with me and had my full support and admiration."[20] (emphasis added)
By my count, there are at least three dozen more where those came from.
If you want a constitutional amendment to overrule the 10th Amendment, then do you think you're going to go around telling people that you think the 10th Amendment should be the deciding rule on the issue? No!
It feels like Bizarro World that this is even an issue. (Note: I did remove the pro-life mention from the first paragraph -- and I wasn't the one who put it there -- as it should occur with his positions.) ←BenB4 18:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, its a legit question. However, the Constitution is amendable, isn't it? He respects the constitution as it is now and the state's rights, but he wants to change the constitution (the legal way) to be more pro-life. I can respect that. In this way, you can definitely think both. You respect the constitution as it is while simultaneously moving to change it. Wrad 18:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- And yet he voted to ban abortions "to offset the damage of Roe v. Wade" or some such. If he believes that, then he believes two wrongs make a right. ←BenB4 18:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- But he's a constitutionalist basically. It isn't contradictory at all. You respect the constitution. If you don't like it, you go through the process to amend it, as opposed to passing federal legislation in the usual way. From constitutionalist perspective, it's not contradictory at all. A court decision has less umph than an Amendment. It's all how you look at it. If you look at whether he's pro-life or pro choice, and nothing else, you might see a contradiction. But there isn't one. He just respects the constitution, and right now he believes that the constitution protects state rights on abortion. He is pro-life, and wants to make and amendment in that direction, but that doesn't contradict anything. It just shows respect for the constitution. Wrad 20:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- So, do you think it's fair to qualify his pro-life stance with "he wants the decision left to the states in accordance with the 10th amendment" without mentioning his proposed constitutional amendment or his legislation or his congressional votes against abortion? ←BenB4 23:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, unless there are reliable sources saying criticizing his position on it. The question is not whether he's pro-life; it's whether his position is more nuanced than that, in mostly leaving the issue to the states to be handled. There's a reason he gets a 65% rating from pro-choice NARAL some years when most pro-life politicians get 0%, and that's because he votes against federal measures having to do with abortion and the like. Your opinion on the matter is clear, bu the question is, How is the article going to be made better? Should the article be completely based on abortion? Other politicians' articles barely mention it, and I have compromised by making a whole paragraph on the issue in the Political Positions section, which no other issue has besides the Iraq War. There is no need to say it in the opening, in a way which would lead readers to think he is one of those who gets a 0% from NARAL.--Gloriamarie 00:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not long ago you were telling me a summary had to be short, now you're telling me "pro-life" won't fly, even though he refers to himself that way. We have to talk about the 10th amendment, even though he wants to add an amendment of his own? There is a paragraph with a complete explanation of all the nuance (thank you.) All the other positions in the summary list have just a few words. Pro-life should too. ←BenB4 02:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I actually am on the fence about whether it should be left in; Tvoz is convincing me a bit with some of her arguments, but the reason I initially took it out was because JLMadrigal's addition of the 10th Amendment might lead to you putting specific legislation back in the lead, and lead to the same disagreements we've been having for the past few days on the subject. If the editors discussing the matter on the talk page agree to have it in the opening with no explanation, I have no problem with that because I accept consensus when it has been reached.--Gloriamarie 03:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not long ago you were telling me a summary had to be short, now you're telling me "pro-life" won't fly, even though he refers to himself that way. We have to talk about the 10th amendment, even though he wants to add an amendment of his own? There is a paragraph with a complete explanation of all the nuance (thank you.) All the other positions in the summary list have just a few words. Pro-life should too. ←BenB4 02:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, unless there are reliable sources saying criticizing his position on it. The question is not whether he's pro-life; it's whether his position is more nuanced than that, in mostly leaving the issue to the states to be handled. There's a reason he gets a 65% rating from pro-choice NARAL some years when most pro-life politicians get 0%, and that's because he votes against federal measures having to do with abortion and the like. Your opinion on the matter is clear, bu the question is, How is the article going to be made better? Should the article be completely based on abortion? Other politicians' articles barely mention it, and I have compromised by making a whole paragraph on the issue in the Political Positions section, which no other issue has besides the Iraq War. There is no need to say it in the opening, in a way which would lead readers to think he is one of those who gets a 0% from NARAL.--Gloriamarie 00:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- So, do you think it's fair to qualify his pro-life stance with "he wants the decision left to the states in accordance with the 10th amendment" without mentioning his proposed constitutional amendment or his legislation or his congressional votes against abortion? ←BenB4 23:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Disagree, Gloriamarie - one purpose of the lede is to summarize things that are gone into in detail in the article. The very fact that there is a (short) paragraph about his position on abortion makes it correct to include it in the lede. I don't see at all why you conclude that it is less important than free trade which is in the lede, or that including the words "pro-life" where I did in any way is creating what you call in your edit summary "an abortion-centered laundry list" or that it makes the article "completely based on abortion" - huh? That's just ridiculous. I think it is necessary to include pro-life along with the other stands he has taken on the major issues of our times, and in fact his stand on abortion is unusual and therefore notable. Sorry, GLoriamarie, but I really disagree with you on this one, and the fact that you've compromised on it isn't really a compelling argument to me. Tvoz |talk 00:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You have excellent points and argue them well. I guess context is needed. To explain about the discussion that has been going on, abortion was put in the lead many times, by itself, with no explanation with the quote that Paul was an "unshakeable foe" of abortion. Some editors thought this gave a misleading impression on his position, and user JLMadrigal would insert a sentence or two about how Paul was pro-life but according to the 10th Amendment didn't believe in federal intervention in the process. BenB4 would then put in additional sentences on specific legislation, which amounted to an entire paragraph in the opening on abortion, which was not appropriate. At that time, the political positions section had two full paragraphs on abortion, a half of another paragraph, and a mention in another paragraph! As a compromise, I moved the paragraph which appeared in the opening to the Political Positions section and removed it from the opening, because both sides cannot agree on what to say about it, except at length. When I called it an "abortion-centered laundry list," I was referring to the mentions in four paragraphs of BenB4's version of the Political positions section. I did not mean your edit at all.--Gloriamarie 01:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, fine - and as I said on your talk page I am not up to date on the back-and-forth here that you describe - but maybe that gives me an advantage of being able to read this with fresher eyes. I'm not looking to add to the lede - it's too long already - I'm looking for the lede to reflect the article, and for it to not pretend that his abortion position doesn't exist which could make it appear that the article is being edited with a POV. Two words - or one hyphenated one - is all I'm adding, and when folks want to know more about that position they go down to the section where it is discussed. And then even more I assume would be found in the separate article Political positions of Ron Paul - I didn't look there yet for this. Not saying the words "pro-life" in the lede - the article summary - I think is an overreaction to whatever it is that transpired before, and doesn't make sense coming in fresh. Tvoz |talk 01:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Thanks for your fresh eyes. I think the best solution would be to say that he is "pro-life but usually does not believe the federal government should intervene." I'm not sure if that will be acceptable to other editors, though. I don't think editors will be happy with just saying "pro-life" in the introduction, because it goes a bit beyond that. I'm not saying he's not pro-life; he has, however, voted on legislation in such a way that in most years, he gets rated highly by pro-choice NARAL (for leaving decisions up to states).-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gloriamarie (talk • contribs) 01:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Gloriamarie, please. Read this link to his campaign site - there is no ambiguity here, and there is no way that NARAL supports this position. This isn't even a controversial edit - here is a quote from that link:I am also the prime sponsor of HR 300, which would negate the effect of Roe v Wade by removing the ability of federal courts to interfere with state legislation to protect life. This is a practical, direct approach to ending federal court tyranny which threatens our constitutional republic and has caused the deaths of 45 million of the unborn. That's not saying "leaving decisions up to states", that is saying explicitly that the federal government should not be able to interfere with the states' efforts to prohibit and/or restrict abortion. His intention is one-way , and to his credit, he is not unclear about it or waffling - but some of these edits here are. "Pro-life" sums it up quite nicely, is short, simple, and to the point - exactly what you want in the lede. You can try for all the nuance elsewhere, although frankly I don't see this as such a nuanced position - but that's just my opinion. As for the article lede, I see no reason for any qualifiers, given what his own web site says his position is. Pro-life. Tvoz |talk 02:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I never said that he wasn't pro-life. I disagree that that is not leaving things up to states-- states could then decide whether to allow it or not allow it. However, he has taken positions on some bills at the federal level that most pro-life politicians have not, indicated in his NARAL rating here, higher than most pro-life politicians on a year-by-year basis. That used to be mentioned in the article. Compare this to John McCain, who has scored a 0% every year, due to supporting more federal measures on the matter.--Gloriamarie 02:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Let me clarify: it may well be that the effect of that bill would be that some states decide to allow abortion, although the part about life beginning at conception - making abortion equal to murder - I think might put a damper on that, and might open the door for the feds to step in as one could say a legitimate role of theirs is to prevent murder - but even if an effect of the bill would be to have some states pass abortion-rights bills, the point of this discussion is "What is Ron Paul's position on pro-life vs pro-choice?" and I think it is unambiguously pro-life - again, he is not unclear or waffling about it at all, but turning oneself into a pretzel to explain the possible effects of his bill seems to me to be begging the issue. The nuance can be down belowand/or in the longer article. The lede is a list of some of his prominent positions, and there's just no argument that this isn't one of them. NARAL's rating is irrelevant here - it can go somewhere else as an interesting effect of some of his past votes. But he makes his position clear - why would we want to equivocate on it? Tvoz |talk 03:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Those who seek a pro-life culture must accept that we will never persuade all 300 million Americans to agree with us. A pro-life culture can be built only from the ground up, person by person. For too long we have viewed the battle as purely political, but no political victory can change a degraded society. No Supreme Court ruling by itself can instill greater respect for life. And no Supreme Court justice can save our freedoms if we don't fight for them ourselves." -Ron Paul (at [21]) -- there are others too. My point is that although there are a lot of quotes by him supportive of the pro-life position, you could find an equal number of quotes supportive of this more nuanced position. Rinkuhero 05:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Let me clarify: it may well be that the effect of that bill would be that some states decide to allow abortion, although the part about life beginning at conception - making abortion equal to murder - I think might put a damper on that, and might open the door for the feds to step in as one could say a legitimate role of theirs is to prevent murder - but even if an effect of the bill would be to have some states pass abortion-rights bills, the point of this discussion is "What is Ron Paul's position on pro-life vs pro-choice?" and I think it is unambiguously pro-life - again, he is not unclear or waffling about it at all, but turning oneself into a pretzel to explain the possible effects of his bill seems to me to be begging the issue. The nuance can be down belowand/or in the longer article. The lede is a list of some of his prominent positions, and there's just no argument that this isn't one of them. NARAL's rating is irrelevant here - it can go somewhere else as an interesting effect of some of his past votes. But he makes his position clear - why would we want to equivocate on it? Tvoz |talk 03:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I never said that he wasn't pro-life. I disagree that that is not leaving things up to states-- states could then decide whether to allow it or not allow it. However, he has taken positions on some bills at the federal level that most pro-life politicians have not, indicated in his NARAL rating here, higher than most pro-life politicians on a year-by-year basis. That used to be mentioned in the article. Compare this to John McCain, who has scored a 0% every year, due to supporting more federal measures on the matter.--Gloriamarie 02:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Gloriamarie, please. Read this link to his campaign site - there is no ambiguity here, and there is no way that NARAL supports this position. This isn't even a controversial edit - here is a quote from that link:I am also the prime sponsor of HR 300, which would negate the effect of Roe v Wade by removing the ability of federal courts to interfere with state legislation to protect life. This is a practical, direct approach to ending federal court tyranny which threatens our constitutional republic and has caused the deaths of 45 million of the unborn. That's not saying "leaving decisions up to states", that is saying explicitly that the federal government should not be able to interfere with the states' efforts to prohibit and/or restrict abortion. His intention is one-way , and to his credit, he is not unclear about it or waffling - but some of these edits here are. "Pro-life" sums it up quite nicely, is short, simple, and to the point - exactly what you want in the lede. You can try for all the nuance elsewhere, although frankly I don't see this as such a nuanced position - but that's just my opinion. As for the article lede, I see no reason for any qualifiers, given what his own web site says his position is. Pro-life. Tvoz |talk 02:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Thanks for your fresh eyes. I think the best solution would be to say that he is "pro-life but usually does not believe the federal government should intervene." I'm not sure if that will be acceptable to other editors, though. I don't think editors will be happy with just saying "pro-life" in the introduction, because it goes a bit beyond that. I'm not saying he's not pro-life; he has, however, voted on legislation in such a way that in most years, he gets rated highly by pro-choice NARAL (for leaving decisions up to states).-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gloriamarie (talk • contribs) 01:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The "unshakable foe of abortion" quote comes from Paul's own campaign web site.[22] ←BenB4 02:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tvoz that Paul's position on abortion appears to be less nuanced than some of his other positions. It does seem that he typically votes on measures that limit federal involvement in abortion/privacy matters on the basis that it is a matter for the states to decide, but his personal position is clearly pro-life. Accordingly, I don't understand why it is a problem to indicate that Paul is pro-life within the summary. Jogurney 03:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Paul get detailed about abortion in this interview, August 16, 2007 - Ron Paul interview battles Air America Randi Rhodes Show, found on ronpaulaudio.com: [23] He indicates that the definition of life becomes problematic early in the pregnancy and indicates that because of this problem the state should decide not only whether to allow or prohibit it but to decide at what point in the pregnancy to prohibit or allow it. I think this detail should be noted in the article. It shows that he doesn't view at as a simply an issue of prohibit or allow. Operation Spooner 04:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have a quote on that, by any chance?--Gloriamarie 04:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Since I have been invited by BenB4 to reenter this never-ending debate, I will give it another shot. Sure Paul is pro-life. He is also anti-federal. The two define his position and cannot be separated. If his position on abortion is mentioned in the lead it must be qualified. BenB4 wishes to simply label him as anti-abortion in the hopes of turning away pro-choice voters across the board. But Paul would have potential pro-choice support in pro-choice states because they would not be affected by a hands-off federal government. They simply need to finish reading the articles. Paul considers individual states to be the arena for the abortion battle. Again, if mentioned in the lead, his position needs to be clear enough for readers to dissociate him from the neocons who wish to prohibit abortion to all states - regardless of the tenth amendment. JLMadrigal 11:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
After trying to keep up with the back and forth over this, I'm feeling some nostalgia for this earlier attempt at a compromise:
Paul describes himself as "an unshakable foe of abortion"[9] and opposes capital punishment, stating that the individual states must be allowed to decide such issues in accordance with the 10th amendment.[10]
I think it captures his stance on abortion fairly well because it communicates both a Constitutionalist and moral basis for Paul's opposition to abortion. Both of those things are present in pretty much every statement Paul makes on abortion, as far as I can tell.
So remind me: What was wrong with this again? --Proper tea is theft 14:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I like that solution, but "these issues" rather than "such issues" would make it clearer that that phrase is referring to both abortion and capital punishment.--Gloriamarie 15:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Two things:
- It conflicts with the fact that he has voted in congress to ban abortions;
- It conflicts with the fact that he wants his own amendment to the Constitution that would make the 10th Amendment irrelevant. ←BenB4 15:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think there's going to be a compromise on this without some acknowledgment that Paul sees abortion as a problem (social, moral, and legal) to be solved through decreasing the power of the federal government (I hope that I have worded this correctly). Assuming that you don't 100% reject this summary of Paul's position, is there any way that you could you suggest some alternate wording that would acknowledge this in some way? Perhaps it could be more general than the wording that invokes the 10th amendment.--Proper tea is theft 17:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think you should keep out of this what you think the motivations of the editors are, JLMadrigal - I don't know if you're right or wrong about BenB4's motivation - I am looking just at the facts presented here. My reading of Ron Paul's position papers and his campaign site indicate a clear pro-life stand on his part - as I said above and Jogurney agreed with. This is a biographical sketch of a man who has certain convictions, positions, etc. That his position can be used or interpreted by one group or another in wildly different ways is not our concern here. In fact the man has clearly and unambiguously said that he is pro-life, and the lede is a summary, not a place for explication of the nuances of how his position can be interpreted. HE is pro-life, not pro-life with a caveat about the states or about the Constitution even. And Ben is right that a so-called simple statement including the 10th amendment is disingenuous (that word again) in light of his own proposed amendment. So don't go there in the lede - you can't possibly present the subtleties in the lede. Do it below, do it in the other article. I'm sounding like a broken record already - and I don't know BenB4 and have never interacted or edited with him before. So please don't make any assumptions there either. I'm coming back to this article, having stopped editing it a while ago for this very reason - there is way too much partisanship here, on both sides. Leave your politics at the door, folks, or we'll never get anywhere. This is getting tedious, after only a day. Sorry for the lecture, but I think this is ridiculous. There are so many politicians who equivocate all over the place that when you have one who makes a clear statement of his position onsomething - like it or hate it - you don't know what to do with it. Kind of ironic. One last thing - saying that he is pro-life will both attract voters and repel voters - so, again, that is not our concern and not relevant to the editing of this article. Can we please move on? Tvoz |talk 16:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just re-read the above - I am talking about the lede, not the part below and I rjust realized that JLMadrigal is referring to the part below - let me take another look at that. My comments were talking about including the words "pro-life" in the lede where I put them yesterday. Sorry if i was too hasty - I'll be back when I read the whole thing in context. Tvoz |talk 16:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think you should keep out of this what you think the motivations of the editors are, JLMadrigal - I don't know if you're right or wrong about BenB4's motivation - I am looking just at the facts presented here. My reading of Ron Paul's position papers and his campaign site indicate a clear pro-life stand on his part - as I said above and Jogurney agreed with. This is a biographical sketch of a man who has certain convictions, positions, etc. That his position can be used or interpreted by one group or another in wildly different ways is not our concern here. In fact the man has clearly and unambiguously said that he is pro-life, and the lede is a summary, not a place for explication of the nuances of how his position can be interpreted. HE is pro-life, not pro-life with a caveat about the states or about the Constitution even. And Ben is right that a so-called simple statement including the 10th amendment is disingenuous (that word again) in light of his own proposed amendment. So don't go there in the lede - you can't possibly present the subtleties in the lede. Do it below, do it in the other article. I'm sounding like a broken record already - and I don't know BenB4 and have never interacted or edited with him before. So please don't make any assumptions there either. I'm coming back to this article, having stopped editing it a while ago for this very reason - there is way too much partisanship here, on both sides. Leave your politics at the door, folks, or we'll never get anywhere. This is getting tedious, after only a day. Sorry for the lecture, but I think this is ridiculous. There are so many politicians who equivocate all over the place that when you have one who makes a clear statement of his position onsomething - like it or hate it - you don't know what to do with it. Kind of ironic. One last thing - saying that he is pro-life will both attract voters and repel voters - so, again, that is not our concern and not relevant to the editing of this article. Can we please move on? Tvoz |talk 16:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok: I've gone over the article again, and tried a different approach to some of it that I hope will satisfy some of the concerns about making the political positions section too focused on abortion. Essentially what I did is pull out the Sanctity of Life and We the People Acts and moved them both to Legislation where they more properly belong, with only a footnote reference to them in the Political positions section. I reinstated "pro-life" in the lede which I think is essential, and also moved "states rights" up to be next to it. (Pro-life is first in that list only because of the syntax of the sentence - can't say "he supports pro-life" and this seems the shortest, simplest way to go. I don't object to that sentence being rearranged so pro-life isn't first, as long as it doesn't get unwieldy.) I reworked the pro-life portion of political positions to consolidate the points made there that were redundant, and to cast it in what I believe is a fair and accurate way - as I discussed above, and as Jogurney concurred, there is really no question about his pro-life convictions. He has been upfront and clear about them, with multiple reasons for his reaching his conclusions. It is incorrect to imply that his anti-abortion stance is based on his also heartfelt belief in states rights - that is ignoring the forest for the trees. His pro-life beliefs are just that, and his method of addressing the problem, as Proper tea points out, is to get the Federal government out of it. I believe, however, that the two bills (SoL and WTP - especially SoL) go quite a bit farther than just supporting states rights, and I am not willing to agree that his position is just in support of the 10th amendment. So I've tried to skirt that debate by stating what we know to be actual facts, supported by citations - his own statements and the bills he has submitted. And I tried to be mindful of the concern that the section not be weighted too much toward the abortion issue, but I think it is not realistic to say that it's just one more issue. It is one of the major issues of our day, and the end result of what appears to be Paul's position (true about many of his positions, in fact) would certainly change the course of events and social policy in this country. Whether you agree with him or not, these are issues that people will come here to look for information on, and we have to try to objectively present his positions and his actions and let readers conclude what they will. Campaign spins are irrelevant and the pretzel-twisting doesn't work - on either side of the issues. I hope this re-working will allow us to move along to the next thing. Tvoz |talk 20:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Stem cell research
Should we not include his opposition to Federally-funded stem cell research? The political positions article is vague, only talking about how he characterizes the two sides of the issue, but not stating his position on the subject. This is disingenuous, and leaving it out here is as well. Tvoz |talk 23:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The section here is supposed to be a summary of Political positions of Ron Paul; I would add it there first and then come back to discuss it here. This does mention that he votes against most federal funding. The political positions section in this article has gotten way out of hand with going into minutiae. For comparison, John Edwards does not mention stem cell research at all, and is less than half the size of this section. Barack Obama doesn't have a political positions section, and stem cell research is only mentioned by saying that he and Alan Keyes had opposing views, but not saying what those are. Mitt Romney's does mention it, but he has made a big deal about that and his subsequent conversion to pro-life positions in his campaign. If his position is not stated correctly in the other article, please fix it.--Gloriamarie 00:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- [edit conflict - reply to original comment] You missed my point, Gloriamarie, or perhaps I didn't make it clearly. The Political positions of Ron Paul article has a section on stem cell research which if I recall correctly just quotes Paul on how he characterizes the two sides of the argument - pro and anti Federal funding of it - and does not clearly indicate which position he takes. That is what I referred to as disingenuous - if we're talking about the issue and talking about how he sees the two sides of it, I think we need to clearly spell out what his position is. As for this article - the editors here have chosen, for whatever reasons, to go into minutiae on his positions - and for some reason have left this one out. I think if all of those others are in, so should this one be as it has been a major issue in recent elections, and it is odd to have been left out. As for the other candidates' pages, as you know, each one has chosen to handle political positions (and other things) differently - so if the ones you mentioned went into the kind of detail that this one does on dozens of issues and left out stem cell research, I'd question it there too. In fact Obama , Clinton and Romney have sections in their "Political positions" articles, and I've asked why Edwards doesn't - it will shortly. They have chosen to not go into such detail in the main article on many issues. I haven't checked the other candidates' articles yet. Tvoz |talk 00:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Now responding to the edit - I brought it to talk rather than changing it because I don't usually edit the Political positions of Ron Paul article and don't have the facts in hand, which I assume others here and there do. So they are in a better position to include his stand fairly - I can research it, but thought someone here would likely be able to fix it faster than I can, as it goes on a pretty long queue for me. Tvoz |talk 00:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I realized what you were referring to once I posted and then went back- I'm very sorry about that. I am not opposed to it being here if it is in the other article, since this section is supposed to be a summary. Do you have any ideas for ways to help this section get back into more of a summary mode? That's a good idea, I may even do it myself or mention it on the talk page there.--Gloriamarie 00:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Now responding to the edit - I brought it to talk rather than changing it because I don't usually edit the Political positions of Ron Paul article and don't have the facts in hand, which I assume others here and there do. So they are in a better position to include his stand fairly - I can research it, but thought someone here would likely be able to fix it faster than I can, as it goes on a pretty long queue for me. Tvoz |talk 00:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have an idea for how to help the six-paragraph Positions section get back into more of a summary of the forty-three section Positions article. It starts with ex and ends with pand. ←BenB4 02:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Great idea! Lets put the whole article in there!Turtlescrubber 02:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- You deleted the paragraph on abortion and the paragraph on the We the People Act as "summary sprawl." Why do you believe that information should not be included? ←BenB4 04:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- A good solution could be to change the We the People Act paragraph to a list of legislation he's sponsored or supported, with links to articles if appropriate or brief explanations. That would cover a lot more ground.--Gloriamarie 03:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not opposed in principle, but he's sponsored 76 and cosponsored 354 bills, just in the 108th Congress.[24]. Maybe that should be a separate article with its own summary section here? ←BenB4 04:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Seems like a good idea, but it would be a large project and quite a task to decide which bills should be included and which shouldn't.--Gloriamarie 07:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not opposed in principle, but he's sponsored 76 and cosponsored 354 bills, just in the 108th Congress.[24]. Maybe that should be a separate article with its own summary section here? ←BenB4 04:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Neolibertarian?
The opening has been changed to read: "conservative, constitutionalist, and neolibertarian" rather than just libertarian. He may be neolibertarian, but it is certainly not as well-supported by reliable sources as "libertarian" is. The reference, the Nancy Snow book, was also not changed, so it's unclear whether it's supported by that reference or not. If there are sources calling him that, it could be mentioned in the Political positions section or in Political positions of Ron Paul.--Gloriamarie 07:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
That Paul supposedly is neolibertarian is blatantly false. According to the WP entry, "Neolibertarianism is a post-9/11 ideological offshoot of libertarianism that incorporates neoconservative ideas on foreign policy, including the use of pre-emptive military force." Paul stands in sharp contrast to the neoconservatives and the neolibertarians. Terjen 19:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- ^ "PAC Contributions to Paul, Ron (R-TX)". OpenSecrets.org. Retrieved 2007-06-04.
- ^ "Under the Influence: Highlights from Public Citizen's Special Interest Index" (PDF). Public Citizen. 2006. Retrieved 2007-06-04.
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ignored (help) - ^ "2008 Presidential Election: Ron Paul Campaign Money". OpenSecrets.org. Retrieved 2007-06-04.
- ^ "2008 Presidential Election: Banking on Becoming President". OpenSecrets.org. Retrieved 2007-06-04.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
texasmonthly2001
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Cite error: The named reference
spectator1999
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ "Frequently Asked Questions". Republican Liberty Caucus. Retrieved 2007-06-24.
- ^ Ron Paul's Web of support: He's an 'online natural'
- ^ http://www.hitwise.com/political-data-center/key-candidates-searchterms.php Hitwise political data center - key candidates
- ^ related info for ronpaul2008.com/
- ^ U.S.News and World Report: Ron Paul's Online Rise accessed on May 10, 2007
- ^ "Defeat the Media Clones" LewRockwell.com
- ^ [http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_alex_wal_070512_media_blackout_boost.htm "MEDIA BLACKOUT BOOSTS PAUL CAMPAIGN"
- ^ "YouTube stats" techPresident.com
- ^ YouTube accessed on August 13th, 2007
- ^ Ron Paul. 2003, June 4. "Pro-Life action must originate from principle."
- ^ http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=47088
- ^ "Dietary Supplements and Health Freedom" at US House of Representatives homepage accessed on June 8 2007