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:::And the requirement for re-adding contentuious claims is ''not'' dependent on your argument that the person is notable -- EVERY person with a BLP is "notable" - but that does not mean that contentious claims do not need consensus. We do seem to have quite a bit of "negative material" in this BLP, this claim of a crime still runs afoul of [[WP:BLP]]. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 14:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC) |
:::And the requirement for re-adding contentuious claims is ''not'' dependent on your argument that the person is notable -- EVERY person with a BLP is "notable" - but that does not mean that contentious claims do not need consensus. We do seem to have quite a bit of "negative material" in this BLP, this claim of a crime still runs afoul of [[WP:BLP]]. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 14:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC) |
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::::'''In favour of retaining mention'''. Seconding [[User:The Interior|<font color="brown">The</font><font color="green"> Interior</font>]]'s point. Qualified, neutral-stance mention of the incident belongs in the entry. Otherwise, the entry as a whole risks being nothing more than a PR item for the subject. That the subject of the entry has created a number of negative notable situations is not an excuse to eliminate them until/unless there are a comparable number of positive notable entries. <span style="border:1px solid #FF8C00;p1pxadding:;background:#0099CC;">[[User:Natty10000|<font color="#FFF"> Natty10000 </font>]]|[[User_talk:Natty10000|<font style="color:#FFF;background:#0099CC;"> Natter </font>]]</span> 14:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC) |
::::'''In favour of retaining mention'''. Seconding [[User:The Interior|<font color="brown">The</font><font color="green"> Interior</font>]]'s point. Qualified, neutral-stance mention of the incident belongs in the entry. Otherwise, the entry as a whole risks being nothing more than a PR item for the subject. That the subject of the entry has created a number of negative notable situations is not an excuse to eliminate them until/unless there are a comparable number of positive notable entries. <span style="border:1px solid #FF8C00;p1pxadding:;background:#0099CC;">[[User:Natty10000|<font color="#FFF"> Natty10000 </font>]]|[[User_talk:Natty10000|<font style="color:#FFF;background:#0099CC;"> Natter </font>]]</span> 14:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Collect, all I'm saying is that consensus should be grounded on policy, and in this case, the policy doesn't support the removal of these allegations. As for the state of the bio in general, it's not great - I've been watching it for a couple years now, and have been reverting the worst of the Ford-bashing. But, I think this has been raised above, Mr. Ford generates a remarkable amount of negative press. He's not a air-brushed, P.R.-managed politician, he shoots from the hip. That's part of his allure, but he also pays for it in the press. What we really should be thinking about is if the theoretical authoritative biography of this man, when all is said and done, would include this incident. I think the answer is yes. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">[[User:The Interior|<font color="brown">The</font><font color="green"> Interior</font>]] [[User Talk:The Interior|(Talk)]]</span> 14:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:56, 25 May 2013
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Semi-protection please?
Previously there was indefinite complete protection on this article which I thought was a little heavy-handed. Now there is no protection and the article is now a target for every idiot with a beef against the mayor. I recommend long-term semi-protection. This would limit the attacks by anonymous users but still allow experienced editors to deal with the article. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 16:49, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- I support the idea. Do we place a request somewhere? I think we have to follow some procedure. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:17, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- The place is WP:RFPP. The request would be for indef semi-protection. (I'm not sure this article will get indef though) The Interior (Talk) 17:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- Ford's Wiki entry reads more like a list of charges at the Nuremberg Tribunal. I get it, Ford's not a popular Mayor...but does the venom have to come here? I donate annually to Wikipedia, and if there is one thing I appreciate, is the ability to delete the RANTS against the man. Claimsfour (talk) 13:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing a compelling need to semi-protect here. The IP and unconfirmed edits look to be of pretty low frequency, as opposed to edits by red-name auto-confirmed editors, which sprot won't prevent. So that leaves full protection as an option if the problems are bad enough. Franamax (talk) 17:00, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
It's funny how 'controversies' if they are written about by other politicians (Jack Layton/Adam Giambrone), there's literally PARAGRAPHS of 'spin/downplaying/context' placed after the initial 'controversy'
There's nothing of the sort for Ford's 'controversies', even though it's plain as day (and sourceable) that those who are Ford's critics really have a lot to lose in regards to what Ford is affecting (cutting programs/reducing the budget).
The bike lanes is a good one: Ford is having dedicated bicycle lanes being built, especially since the rates of rider/vehicle fatalities have increased as a result of increased traffic in the city.
The Wiki entry doesn't include this 'context' Claimsfour (talk) 00:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- No-one is trying to stop you from doing positive edits to the article. So feel free to add the context. I've added lots on Ford's term, e.g. budget, etc. If you have something to add that is reliably sourced, then add it. I would not object. I can't even work on the article much, if all you do is chop, so I can't even get to it. I believe that people in TCHC have positive impressions of Ford and I want to add that, (along with the firing of the TCHC board) but if we are stuck in this you-chop and I-restore cycle, we won't progress. You just can't control the content to leave out things you disagree with. That's not how editing works around here. You have to be a disinterested observer. You are not that. Further, people expect to have Ford's controversies included. If you leave them out, it's a white-wash. I don't think they have undue prominence, which is another no-no. This stuff can be debated, for sure, but debating is supposed to be done here on the talk page, not by merely chopping in the article. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 26 November 2012
Rob Ford was the prior mayor of Toronto, and was removed from office on November 26, 2012, after being found guilty of conflict of interest by the Ontario Supreme Court. Presiding over the Ontario Supreme Court, Justice Charles Hackland found Rob Ford guilty of using his position as Mayor to benefit his his football foundation after a highly public trial in which Ford did not deny the charges but claimed innocence due to ignorance of the specific law as his only defense. The prosecution was able to provide evidence that Ford had been specifcally provided a briefing on the law and, although Ford claimed not to have read it, was expected in his role as mayor. At this time, council for Rob Ford has stated an intension to appeal the decision within the 30 day limitation on appeals.
news reports on verdict http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1293190--mayor-rob-ford-guilty-kicked-from-office-but-can-run-again http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/26/posted-toronto-political-panel-just-because-rob-fords-removal-was-just-doesnt-mean-the-law-that-turfed-him-is/
full text of judicial statement http://torontoist.com/2012/11/rob-ford-conflict-of-interest-verdict-full-text/
history of the trial http://torontoist.com/2012/09/why-is-mayor-rob-ford-in-court/
Emmisvi (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure what you want changed - if you are a registered user, you can make the edit. Add more details? The judgment says that it is reserved for 14 days, so we can't call him the previous mayor yet. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- I am setting this edit request to Not done: in light of the above response. I also note that at this time the OP cannot edit the article because his/her account is not autoconfirmed. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that while a verdict has been handed down, at this moment he is still the mayor for the duration of the 14 day period, unless he resigns before it is up. So, technically speaking, it would not be true to call him a "prior" mayor, just yet. Echoedmyron (talk) 16:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
- I am setting this edit request to Not done: in light of the above response. I also note that at this time the OP cannot edit the article because his/her account is not autoconfirmed. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Removal for conflict of interest
The accuracy of this section could be improved by using this reference:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-44902.pdf
rather than media reports of the content. (The original report of 2010 follows the report of 2012.)
"Ford had accepted $3,150 on behalf of the foundation and the commissioner indicated that Ford should pay back the money"
The amount raised by the Mayor was around $37,500. Of this, $3,150 could be identified as coming from lobbyists or companies doing business with the city and the commissioner indicated that Ford should pay back this money
"Several did not want repayment and Ford forwarded letters from several donors expressing their wishes to the integrity commissioner."
The integrity commissioner indicated that this forgiveness by the donors of the need for repayment constituted a further improper benefit.
NitPicker769 (talk) 07:48, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Bus diversion
On my recent visit to Toronto, I heard multiple conversations about a controversy involving Mr. Ford diverting city buses, including ejecting paying passengers, to pick up members of his foundation-supported football team. This also seemed to have received some news coverage (e.g. this article [1] from the Toronto Star), but there isn't any mention of this issue on the article. Since this man is apparently a rather controversial figure, and I'm not familiar with the previous discussions on this page, I thought it best to raise it here rather than just being bold. siafu (talk) 16:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- By itself, it's not much. The police apparently ordered a bus to pickup a high school team that Ford coaches. The only Ford involvement was that he called the TTC chief to see why it was late. The TTC on its own diverted a bus that had paying passengers. So it's more of a TTC controversy though who knows what conspiracy theorists might think. :-) If there was a paragraph on Ford's coaching of football, then it might be relevant. The controversy section is rather large as it is, although it is all attributed. I'm thinking of merging the various controversial comments that Ford has made into one paragraph, rather than the chronological order we have. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- might it be worth considering a separate article for the controversies, and have a brief summation and a "see also" link in this article? ;) Echoedmyron (talk) 00:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- Admittedly, part of the problem with Ford is that he's accomplished so little of any real substance that most of the time the controversies are all there is to write about him. But as I've noted in other discussions in the past, we need to maintain a critical filter here: some of the controversies (the conflict of interest impeachment/unimpeachment, the libel suit, etc.) are worth writing about due to the fact that they had high profile consequences — but the myriad times when he puts his foot in his mouth and gets flayed in the media for a day or two, but nothing more comes of it afterward, should really just be avoided (as should anything that's limited to conflicting but unverifiable claims.) I'm no fan of Rob Ford, trust me, but WP:NPOV requires that I keep my actions as a Wikipedian separate from my opinions of him as a voter — so we need to stick to what's genuinely important, which is the stuff that actually has consequences, and not get caught up in documenting every little political pothole he hits. Bearcat (talk) 17:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- might it be worth considering a separate article for the controversies, and have a brief summation and a "see also" link in this article? ;) Echoedmyron (talk) 00:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
The event is covered in the Don Bosco Catholic Secondary School article. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Rich playboy
Please explain how indicating that the family had a swimming pool,etc. makes him a playboy? What's wrong with noting he has pic of Harris? Or his leaving football at Carleton? There is no content in there that is offensive. Alaney2k (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that was vandalism, as it's not in the article anymore. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Length of controversy section
The controversy section is currently a massive wall of text, and it's pretty unreadable. Alaney2k didn't like me splitting it up into subheadings, but there needs to be something done to improve readability. I agree with his notion that we might collapse some of the subheadings, but even if we did that, the section would still be unruly. I'm not sure if splitting the section into a separate article is warranted so we are left with either organizing it better, or trimming it. I'm in favour of better organization, if someone is looking up an encyclopedia article on Rob Ford, this is probably the information they are looking for. Check out Kwame Kilpatrick for another controversial mayor with a large section of his page dedicated to his many PR nightmares. In the case of Ford, these are sadly the most notable features of his administration, so lets organize them in a more readable format. Pjjmd (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- I have to disagree on the style. It is not good style to add a sub-heading for every paragraph. A heading is to introduce a section. Putting a heading on every paragraph is more of a technical report style. Compared to Kirkpatrick, Ford's section is not a 'wall'. People can read that much. I think the feelings on Ford are mixed. Yes, people want to read about the controversies, but a lot want to read about his politics and budgets, cost-cutting, etc. They've made that point that it is a page full of complaints about Ford. So we need to proceed carefully. I think we could have a whole article, but people may object. We could sub-divide into sections on controversial quotes, anti-cycling and driving incidents to try to categorize. There seems to be more brewing about drinking, so we could have a controversial incidents sub-section. Alaney2k (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
- : I agree on breaking things down into subdivisions, since the 'other controversy' section isn't ideal anyway, we might be able to remove it. Is there a good place to work on an article other than the live version? I agree it's a bit of a contentious issue, i'd like to make some changes and have a user like Alaney2k take a look at them before I edit the live page again. Is my userpage the best spot for that?Pjjmd (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
- Hat's off to Alaney2k for his or her work in moving paragraphs from the controversies section to other sections of the article. Geo Swan (talk) 21:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Seconded. This has to be an editor's nightmare in that regard Natty10000 | Natter 21:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Semiprotection
Various editors have been keen to add a most interesting nugget to the article. This is sourced to the Toronto Star, which sounds dubious about its veracity (a video "appears to show" such and such). Let's wait until reputable news sources are rather more certain of its worth until we consider allowing its addition to the article (even as an "allegation"). After all, there's no hurry: Wikipedia isn't a newspaper. In order to cut short a resource-wasting edit war, I've s-protected the article.
Sleepily, I did so for an indefinite period. That was not deliberate: any admin who wishes to end the s-protection is free to do so without consulting me. The article will not be on my watchlist; if further edits seem to require full protection, then again an admin is free to do this without consulting me. -- Hoary (talk) 07:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- I completely agree with Hoary. The 2 sources; Gawker and Toronto Star even conflict on what the video reveals:
- Gawker witness claimed it was Pierre Trudeau called a faggot by someone "off camera"
- [2]
- Toronto Star witnesses say it was Justin Trudeau who was called a fag by Ford himself
- [3] May122013 (talk) 14:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
You realize that the crack cocaine video is being widely reported? I think it might be more appropriate to put a tag on the page that there are current events going on, rather than disallow adding anything. Alaney2k (talk) 15:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- I wonder, is there room for the article to briefly mention the story in a way that doesn't violate WP:BLP? Is it a problem to just say that 3 journalists (1 Gawker, 2 TorStar) have reported seeing the video, and that Ford denies the allegations? It would obviously be wrong to assert in Wikipedia's voice that anything on the alleged video is true, or even that the video exists, frankly, but it seems to me that a brief neutral mention that the story exists might be appropriate. Although, bottom line, I agree with Hoary - there is no hurry, and edit warring is always pointless, so I'm not trying to make a strong case for its inclusion, I'm just genuinely wondering if there is any appropriate way to mention this kind of thing while respecting BLP guidelines. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP in my opinion precludes including this at this time. "Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid:". As others have said, there is no rush, either the video will soon become available or it will not; that will be the time to include it in this BLP I think. May122013 (talk) 14:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- The controversy, now making international headlines, in itself is very notable. Even if it turns out he's not smoking crack (doubtful), it's still a notable and increasingly major event in this person's biography. We're putting denial blinders on ourselves here by withholding mention. Not only will this likely require its own section, but I believe it will eventually have its own article. --Oakshade (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- As to conflicts between Gawker and Toronto Star's reportage of the content, if you were watching a video in the back of a shady car, and only had three times to watch, how accurate do you think your notes would be? (see Inattentional blindness) -- Zanimum (talk) 18:50, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, which is why the entire episode is so sketchy at this point in time, its based upon watching a video in the back seat of a car and in Gawker's case, I think it may have been only 1 time. May122013 (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- The only difference in description is in the comment about Justin Trudeau. Hardly a conflict. Alaney2k (talk) 14:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree because A: The other difference was who the Trudeau comment was attributed to, so there are 2 differences ( the Trudeau and the speaker) plus B: the video clip they saw was only 90 seconds long; you would think a couple of reporters if they were paying attention would not have 2 differences in recall of the content of such a short time span. The entire incident and the reporting there of seems sketchy to me; at least at this point in time, 5 days after Gawker first reported it. May122013 (talk) 02:52, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- The only difference in description is in the comment about Justin Trudeau. Hardly a conflict. Alaney2k (talk) 14:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, which is why the entire episode is so sketchy at this point in time, its based upon watching a video in the back seat of a car and in Gawker's case, I think it may have been only 1 time. May122013 (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- Does this at least qualify as "media relations", given his comments about the Star in reaction to the acquisitions? Especially considering they weren't the ones who broke the story internationally, only the ones breaking it locally. -- Zanimum (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- BLP policy: This is not a gossip rag or tabloid: "Contentious material about living persons ....that is ......poorly sourced should be removed immediately." I think that putting any reference or story about this non-available video is making Wikipedia a participate in a smear campaign and our BLP policy is clear in tone and content that this is something that does not qualify for inclision in a BLP at this time. May122013 (talk) 16:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's not poorly sourced, though, when the Toronto Star is reporting the story. If necessary, we could broaden the scope and pull in the CBC's reporting of the allegations. If we need to tread carefully with anything in the article, it's to err on the site of using weasel words, such as "a video appearing to show" instead of "a video showing". —C.Fred (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think the wording is completely open to discussion. Leaving this incident out is more or less just denial that this allegation has been raised. Remember that Ford himself has been arrested for DUI and marijuana possession, that he was drunk and disorderly at a Maple Leafs' game, at the two functions in March. It's an important allegation given his past behaviour. It's also important given that he is the mayor. I live in Toronto. I don't believe it reflects well on Toronto or Ford. But if we stick to what is reported, then we are doing what is expected of Wikipedia. I've written a lot of this article - I've put in lots of content on the budgets, transit policy, etc. I don't believe that we are out of line. Ford and his behaviour is widely known. Believe me, there is lots of salacious stuff that is not in this article. Before this, I removed the trivial complaint about the magnets on the cars. I try to keep it on the mark, which is providing a fair and as best possible neutral article about this person. I have been editing here for six years and have learned a lot about Wikipedia and doing a good job.
- I fully agree that this story should be in the Wikipedia article, even if the tone is very conservative (for example "Unsubstantiated reports of filmed crack cocaine usage made international news, to which Rob Ford has responded with...") the true purpose of the BLP policy is to protect rumours from turning into presumed facts. Right now we have the opposite, The Daily Show covers it and people presume it is true, come to Wikipedia and become confused as to why it is not here. They do not get a chance to read what Mayor Ford has said about it. -- Zachaysan (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Secondly, it is the Fords' typical behaviour to launch smears about opponents or persons who make allegations, not the other way around. That the Star and Ford do not get along is not news. There are several columnists who disagree with Ford openly, but I have not seen any smears. You could argue that because they report on things outside of City Hall, that they are going beyond what was reported in the past. In the 1950s, drunken-ness of public officials was not reported. But that's not the case today. Alaney2k (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
I see under the RFC section above another editor said this, some time ago; "anything that suggests that Ford is guilty of having broken the law where he has not been convicted of doing so should not be on the page." I agree with that and think that simple assessment might equally apply with this non-available 90 second video clip reportedly seen in the back seat of a car. May122013 (talk) 02:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
BLP Noticeboard
I have placed this matter on the BLP noticeboard. It concerns me greatly that many Editors here have inserted their personal opinions about the past behaviour of the subject of this BLP and refer to their or others' opinions as reasoning for how to deal with the content of this BLP. I could be wrong about this but I feel it is clearly contrary to the spirit and letter of our BLP policies to include any reference to this salacious news item at this early stage, especially since the alleged evidence ( video ) is not available to any reliable source yet. May122013 (talk) 02:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Restore neutral coverage of crack cocaine video now...
On May 20th, in this edit a contributor removed a large section of the article that had been devoted to coverage of reports that drug dealers were trying to sell a video of Ford smoking crack and making vulgar comments.
I don't see a place where that contributor has explained their excision, other than in their edit summary, that says: "Substance abuse allegations: removiing contentious material pending consensus".
I don't see a place where a specific discussion over the neutrality and appropriateness of this excised comment was initiated.
Since the long passage was removed:
- The reporting by Gawker and Toronto Star journalist has been picked up, and commented upon, by newspapers and television news around the world;
- The School Board has dismissed Ford from coaching the Don Bosco High School Football Team. Commentators are attributing his firing to the controversy over the crack video;
- Jon Stewart devoted over six minutes to the crack video and crack in Toronto;
- Jimmy Kimmel featured a skit, re-enacting the crack video;
- Leno also joked about Ford;
Without a specific discussion as to the specific arguments why neutral coverage of the initial reporting of the Gawker/TorStar investigation how can we know whether a consensus has been reached?
I don't know whether the discussion should take place here, or on BLPN. But I think there must be a specific discussion where we can agree a conclusion was reached. Geo Swan (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Jokes about allegations are no more substantial than allegations. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Was the excised material neutrally written?
Was the excised material neutrally written? -- it seems to me that it was both neutrally written and properly referenced, and there were no grounds to excise it based on WP:NPOV or WP:RS/WP:VER. I call on anyone who disagrees to explain themselves here. Geo Swan (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Is the excised material relevant?
Is the excised material relevant?
As I expained on WP:BLPN, it seems to me that those arguing coverage of the Gawker/TorStar reporting on the video is based on treating Ford as a "private person", when he is a very "public figure". Geo Swan (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I posted this elsewhere, but this should be posted here instead, so I'll repeat it: It's completely ridiculous that this story is being ignored. Obviously this is a major story in the biography of Ford--no matter how it pans out. Maybe the allegations will prove to be false... in which case a simple "The Allegations of drug abuse turned out to be false" would obviously suffice. People all over the world are clicking on this page, having never heard of Ford before the allegations went public, and can't find anything about it???? The question isn't whether or not Ford did or didn't smoke crack. It's that media has reported that he HAS. Wikipedia should simply reference the fact that the allegations are out there--it doesn;t have to assume they're right or wrong. Anything less is just wrong.--184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- and we can wait until it pans out. We are not a breaking news service. We owe the facts, not the first. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- And this fact is already out: there is an alleged video the purports to show Rob Ford smoking crack. It's no longer breaking news (the story's been out for a week!), and its certainly not an obscure story. It's part of his bio. Some acknowledgement of that simple fact is to be expected, especially by wikipedia users who are not closely following the twists and turns in the story.--184.145.28.226 (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- yes, lots of people are talking about the very flimsy allegations. we dont need to present chatter about the allegations just because they are.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- After six days, the primary reason that this isn't "flimsy" is because Rob Ford doesn't seem to be able to say outright "The video is a fake. That isn't me". That he's gone essentially to ground and clammed-up sends the message that regardless of how low a contempt the individuals who recorded things may be held in, it seems they aren't lying. You seem to want to send this particular event to the memory hole when in fact it is an ongoing issue that has the wherewithal to be defining. Natty10000 | Natter 01:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- "Absolutely not true." you cannot really get much more of an outright denial than that. You could try asking him if he has stopped beating his wife or maybe you could tell him, "I dont believe your denial because you didnt swear on a stack of 13 bibles, there were only 12, and you didnt spit on your finger before you pinky swear, and you didnt travel back to Europe to swear on the grave of your grandmother." But you have made up your mind and wouldnt believe him even if he had done those. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- After six days, the primary reason that this isn't "flimsy" is because Rob Ford doesn't seem to be able to say outright "The video is a fake. That isn't me". That he's gone essentially to ground and clammed-up sends the message that regardless of how low a contempt the individuals who recorded things may be held in, it seems they aren't lying. You seem to want to send this particular event to the memory hole when in fact it is an ongoing issue that has the wherewithal to be defining. Natty10000 | Natter 01:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- yes, lots of people are talking about the very flimsy allegations. we dont need to present chatter about the allegations just because they are.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- And this fact is already out: there is an alleged video the purports to show Rob Ford smoking crack. It's no longer breaking news (the story's been out for a week!), and its certainly not an obscure story. It's part of his bio. Some acknowledgement of that simple fact is to be expected, especially by wikipedia users who are not closely following the twists and turns in the story.--184.145.28.226 (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- and we can wait until it pans out. We are not a breaking news service. We owe the facts, not the first. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
If there is some other specific reason for disclusion, please explain it here...
Edit request on 18 May 2013
The link to note 133: Cook, John (May 17,2013). "(Update) We Are Raising $200,000 to Buy and Publish the Rob Ford Crack Tape". Gawker. is broken, it should be: http://gawker.com/we-are-raising-200-000-to-buy-and-publish-the-rob-ford-508230073 76.68.49.190 (talk) 04:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- Already done - by User:AuburnPilot with this edit. Thanks for pointing it out. Begoon talk 09:51, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
References = Further Reading and Notes = References?
The references section lists:
- McDonald, Marci (2012). "The Incredible Shrinking Mayor". Toronto Life (May 2012): pp. 40–54.
- The Unknown Torontonian (2011). The little book of Rob Ford. Toronto, ON: House of Anansi Press Inc. ISBN 978-1-77089-007-7.
Are these references directly used in the article, or are they really "Further reading". If so, we can change Notes to References. -- Zanimum (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Citation needed on "crack video"
Mention of the alleged "crack video" does not meet wikipedia's policies (biography of living persons.. or something or other) as there is no proof such a video exists. No one outside of a gossip columnist, and reporters from a newspaper with a clear vendetta against the mayor have even SEEN this video, allegedly shot by drug dealers.
If these unsubstantiated allegations are sufficient for inclusion into a Wikipedia article, I very strongly question the usefulness of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.149.43 (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- This article covers the allegations, it covers the response to the allegations, and covers the media coverage. It does not pass judgement. If you can cite a specific part of this section that is causing an issue, please state so.
- Regardless of the Toronto Star and their goal (if anything more than covering the news) the currently unsubstantiated allegations are being covered internationally. Most of Ford's incidents only receive local or minimal national coverage. This situation's coverage is widespread. Besides the outlets cited there, The New York Times, Bloomberg, BBC News, USA Today, and Forbes all have. Even small American outlets like the Evansville Courier & Press. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:26, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
There is no first hand account of the act. There are only the allegations, second hand, via Gawker and the Toronto Star. The other sources you mention only reference the Star and Gawker - THIRD HAND information. The fact is, the allegations are unsubstantiated. Do unsubstantiated allegations merit inclusion in a wikipedia article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.149.43 (talk) 17:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia editors did not initiate the discussion or the events or the allegations. What is included here is that someone is shopping a video of Ford. It has apparently also been offered to cfrb. It does not take undue prominence in the article, but it is reported. I have asked an editor/admin to review it for violations of policy. It's a difficult spot to stand on. It should be included due to its wide reporting. Readers expect to have it mentioned. Even newspapers sympathetic to Ford are reporting the allegations. We should do about the same, and be neutral. That Ford has been reported in the recent past has having been intoxicated can only be reported in context, no more no less. But several reports mean also that it is not one unsubstantiated incident, but either a series of events that have actually occurred or a series of personal attacks on Ford. Either seems extraordinary. Alaney2k (talk) 18:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
- "Do unsubstantiated allegations merit inclusion in a wikipedia article?" - If the allegations and the ensuing response to the allegations are reported at an international level, yes. Whether these allegations are proven true or false in the future, this little episode has gained enough notability in my mind to gain inclusion in this article. Sepsis II (talk) 01:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with 24.212.149.43 and since the matter is in dispute here on the talk page, I think Editors who keep re-including the information on the main page are not adhering to basic BLP policy. May122013 (talk) 02:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm with the "keep" side. As long as we say people claim to have seen Ford smoking crack in a video (not "Ford was caught smoking crack on camera" or anything), and then illustrate the repercussions and rebuttals, I think we're OK. The notable thing isn't the act of smoking crack, or even the allegations, but the scandal which followed. We know that exists, and whether the allegations are true is largely irrelevant by this point (except to the extent that we shouldn't say they are or aren't true). InedibleHulk (talk) 04:17, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
- "Do unsubstantiated allegations merit inclusion in a wikipedia article?" - If the allegations and the ensuing response to the allegations are reported at an international level, yes. Whether these allegations are proven true or false in the future, this little episode has gained enough notability in my mind to gain inclusion in this article. Sepsis II (talk) 01:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's completely ridiculous that this story is being ignored. Obviously this is a major story in the biography of Ford--no matter how it pans out. Maybe the allegations will prove to be false... in which case a simple "The Allegations of drug abuse turned out to be false" would obviously suffice. People all over the world are clicking on this page, having never heard of Ford before the allegations went public, and can't find anything about it???? The question isn't whether or not Ford did or didn't smoke crack. It's that media has reported that he HAS. Wikipedia should simply reference the fact that the allegations are out there--it doesn;t have to assume they're right or wrong. Anything less is just wrong. --76.70.0.19 (talk) 16:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP uh no. we are not breaking news and we are not a tabloid. We walk on the conservative side when dealing with living people. As of last night, all there was was 2 pairs of journalists saying they had seen a video made by junkies who were trying to sell it for a lot of money of a man who looked like he was doing something that might be illegal who in their opinion looked like it might have been RF. That is way too flimsy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- The Red Pen of Doom says " As of last night, all there was was 2 pairs of journalists saying they had seen a video made by junkies who were trying to sell it for a lot of money of a man who looked like he was doing something that might be illegal who in their opinion looked like it might have been RF.".... Duh? WHY NOT JUST SAY THAT? Your statement is exactly right--and it should be included in the story, because no matter how this pans out, the story is part of Ford's biography. It's not unlike the Whitewater scandal in the case of Bill Clinton. A bunch of unsubstantiated claims that ultimately amounted to nothing, and yet not only is it part of Clinton's biography, the Whitewater controversy has its OWN wiki page! The crack story doesn't need its own wiki page, but it's obviously more than some obscure rumor on some blog somewhere. The controversy is part of Rob Ford's biography no matter how it pans out.184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)--184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- again, we are not a breaking news service - we can and per WP:BLP should wait until it pans out. We are not a WP:CRYSTALball. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- again, this isn't breaking news. Can you stop with that line already? That line might have made sense a week ago. No one is asking you to break a news story. Nobody is under the illusion that wikipedia is a news source. And if we need wait until things "pan out", then when exactly does this story deserve a mention in wikipedia? Suppose it takes months? Years? How about this: why not mention what we DO know already, which is this: two media organizations have reported that a video is being shopped around that purports to show Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine. NOBODY would dispute that simple fact--not even Ford himself is disputing those simple facts. It's a reasonable compromise... not sure why you're insisting on ignoring the story, other than bias on your part. --184.145.28.226 (talk) 02:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- again, we are not a breaking news service - we can and per WP:BLP should wait until it pans out. We are not a WP:CRYSTALball. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- The Red Pen of Doom says " As of last night, all there was was 2 pairs of journalists saying they had seen a video made by junkies who were trying to sell it for a lot of money of a man who looked like he was doing something that might be illegal who in their opinion looked like it might have been RF.".... Duh? WHY NOT JUST SAY THAT? Your statement is exactly right--and it should be included in the story, because no matter how this pans out, the story is part of Ford's biography. It's not unlike the Whitewater scandal in the case of Bill Clinton. A bunch of unsubstantiated claims that ultimately amounted to nothing, and yet not only is it part of Clinton's biography, the Whitewater controversy has its OWN wiki page! The crack story doesn't need its own wiki page, but it's obviously more than some obscure rumor on some blog somewhere. The controversy is part of Rob Ford's biography no matter how it pans out.184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)--184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP uh no. we are not breaking news and we are not a tabloid. We walk on the conservative side when dealing with living people. As of last night, all there was was 2 pairs of journalists saying they had seen a video made by junkies who were trying to sell it for a lot of money of a man who looked like he was doing something that might be illegal who in their opinion looked like it might have been RF. That is way too flimsy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's completely ridiculous that this story is being ignored. Obviously this is a major story in the biography of Ford--no matter how it pans out. Maybe the allegations will prove to be false... in which case a simple "The Allegations of drug abuse turned out to be false" would obviously suffice. People all over the world are clicking on this page, having never heard of Ford before the allegations went public, and can't find anything about it???? The question isn't whether or not Ford did or didn't smoke crack. It's that media has reported that he HAS. Wikipedia should simply reference the fact that the allegations are out there--it doesn;t have to assume they're right or wrong. Anything less is just wrong. --76.70.0.19 (talk) 16:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Rfc: Undue weight?
Despite how people see Mr Ford in the City of Toronto or Canada as a whole this article is over the top - giving disproportionate space to controversies and speculations. What is the best way to approach this problem? - trim the section? summarizes better? any suggestions? Moxy (talk) 15:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- For several years now, I think we have been discussing what to do about the section. About a year ago, I added more information about his political career, because the article was literally 80% devoted to controversies. But, I think it is in Ford's nature to be controversial. So, how do you trim? Really, there is so much more that is not in the article! There is even more about his family not in this article like his sister's drug abuse and the murder of of his sister's ex-boyfriend. You have to draw the line somewhere - but I would define him myself as controversial, not "painted that way". He might not be notable otherwise. I definitely add stuff to the article then try to subtract. That's my nature of writing. If you feel you can summarize it better, I welcome it. But, in the end, I think Ford will forever be known for his controversial and publicity-hungry behaviour. He definitely is a party boy too. He has character flaws and he and his brother admit it. He has shown genuine concern about many things in Toronto - such as the housing corp, but he seems to always using insults and smears in his political battles. I don't recall in recent memory a mayor of Toronto that has so many negative things said and done towards him - the lawsuits, the naked picture, etc. He is very polarizing. Alaney2k (talk) 15:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- We have to balance the tone - not only do we have a huge section on speculation just added and a huge section on controversies the whole article is littered with a ...."Ford did this action, HOWEVER everyone thinks hes a moron for doing so" type tone. I am more then willing to help but I think after reading the sections above we need to get outsiders that dont know him as a political entity to comment on the tone of the article before we fix this. To me it looks like we have to apposing sides dividing the article up. Moxy (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Comment It's hard to imagine what an outside who knows Ford as something other than a "political entity" would look like. Rob Ford is only famous as a political entity, and only Torontonians would like know him as anything other than a controversial mayor. Indeed, as an American, I only learned about Rob Ford when visiting Toronto and hearing about him repeatedly in conversation in the context of one or more of his controversial statements or actions (the TTC bus used for ferrying his football players was a big one at the time). Furthermore, Typing "Rob Ford" into google, for example, brings up hordes of links about the scandals, gaffes, and controversies surrounding him, and very little about his actual political platforms or accomplishments (I just did this now, and noticed with amusement that the "Crackstarter" page comes up right after this one). I have to agree with Alaney2k here; Rob Ford is just a controversial figure. siafu (talk) 16:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- This is what I am looking for - to see what people think of the weight. Thank you for your comments.Moxy (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- "Rob Ford is only famous as a political entity"? 100 million dollars per year in sales for his company according to the Toronto Star [6] and that isn't even mentioned. It's obvious that the controversies are way over-weighted; at least I think so. May122013 (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- $100 million a year in sales for a company is not actually super significant; there are thousands of businessmen and women who can make such a claim who never manage to grace the headlines. The Toronto Star is in fact only reporting that number because Mr. Ford is famous as a politician. siafu (talk) 15:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- "Rob Ford is only famous as a political entity"? 100 million dollars per year in sales for his company according to the Toronto Star [6] and that isn't even mentioned. It's obvious that the controversies are way over-weighted; at least I think so. May122013 (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- This is what I am looking for - to see what people think of the weight. Thank you for your comments.Moxy (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Here's an outside view: I'm not a Canadian and have never heard of this guy before, so my opinion shouldn't carry much weight, but for what it's worth I think the amount of text given to controversies in this article is more than we should aim for in biographies of politicians, even controversial ones. (That said, it's also hardly unusual for Wikipedia - there are plenty of biographies of American, British, Australian etc. politicians that are just as unbalanced.) The five paragraphs given over to the current cocaine story seems particularly excessive; it might be a good idea to go back and take another look at that section once the story has died down (unless, of course, it results in his resignation or something like that). Robofish (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree withRobofish and I would like to once again remove the cocaine allegations until hopefully more senior editors will respond to the BLP Noticeboard request for attention here. It is my view that many editors here have allowed their own opinion about the mayor to influence the content of the BLP and this is nothing new whatsoever as can be seen by reviewing the entire talk page. May122013 (talk) 03:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- May, this is futile. The mayor will just put his foot in his mouth again tomorrow, and the next day and the next day. Content on the substance abuse allegations will be returned to the article, not because editors disagree with you, but because it is notable. Why don't you work on the content to improve it, instead of working to suppress it? Alaney2k (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree withRobofish and I would like to once again remove the cocaine allegations until hopefully more senior editors will respond to the BLP Noticeboard request for attention here. It is my view that many editors here have allowed their own opinion about the mayor to influence the content of the BLP and this is nothing new whatsoever as can be seen by reviewing the entire talk page. May122013 (talk) 03:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Reduce content There is far to much detail on controversies and policies. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
NPOV tag
Rather than removing the crack cocaine allegations again, I have put the NPOV tag on the article until we can come to a consensus that conforms to BLP policies. May122013 (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Consensus does not equal unanimity, May. Since the content section is out right now, as it is being discussed on the BLP noticeboard, will you remove the npov tag? Or are you objecting to any other section? If so, please provide some reasoning. Alaney2k (talk) 16:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Systemic Bias Tag
An apparently uninvolved editor placed a systemic bias tag on the BLP with an edit summary saying: "bias is systemic due to traditional "reliable sources" being heavily tilted against Ford for a number of reasons; this article needs a special amount of care". The tag was removed quickly for non-discussion. I did not know such a tag existed and I am putting it back as I think it applies perfectly as can be seen by the many comments on this talk page about the Subject's treatment by the media and his ongoing feud and legal actions with the Toronto Star particularly. If more discussion is needed to justify the continued use of this tag then lets have it here. Imo , I did not know such a tag existed but since it does, this BLP needs it for all the reasons identified in the preceding sections of this talk page. May122013 (talk) 12:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Allegations that the entire mainstream media are in a conspiracy against Ford is not a valid claim of systemic bias. Such a claim is in fact antithetical to basic content polices and guidelines such as WP:UNDUE and WP:RS - we weight things the way the mainstream sources cover the subject. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with TheRedPenOfDoom. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with TheRedPen as well. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 13:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with TRPoD here. We can't treat the "whole media is against Ford" thing as absolute truth just because Ford says its true. Dawn Bard (talk) 13:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- While I am late to the party I too agree. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with TheRedPenOfDoom. The "media" is not a block that acts en masse. The views of various media outlets are as varied as the markets that will support them. Natty10000 | Natter 16:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I have just removed the tag, as I don't see "systemic bias" in the article. The article has reasonable balance between supportive and critical opinions of Mr. Ford. I would suggest that the sections on the Conflict of Interest case and other Controversies should be trimmed down. PKT(alk) 14:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Many editors have suggested that the controversies section be "trimmed down"but they don't do it themselves; hence it never does get trimmed down; at least not very much. Perhaps an editor who has not been expressing any opinions about these matters could do the trimming? May122013 (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- People who are not familiar with -all- of the controversies/scandals, etc. of Mr. Ford are typically the ones who say trim it down. And respectfully, I think PKT may be that way. But also it's persons who think the article is merely a smear article. I've tried working the opposite way, trying to add more about his actual career to provide balance, but then month after month Ford does something else. The Little Book of Rob Ford is a book entirely composed of his smears on various groups! The day before the crack scandal, there was an item about putting magnets on cars, while skipping out on a council meeting. I removed it for triviality. Prior to that, someone wanted to put in info about his apparently deadly body mass index value - I commented it out. I think the conflict of interest section could be summarized, for certain, but it will be extremely difficult to trim the other controversies section with this subject person and still provide what people wish to know. There was a tag on the article to bring the article up to date, and that was when the March allegations of drunken-ness were being made. There is no mention of his interview where he criticized the football players he coaches as losers who will never amount to anything, and his coaching of the football team - which he has placed at a level of priority over attending council meetings. There is no mention of his hiring people in his mayor's office that work on the football program. It's all fairly murky, and Ford works to keep details out of the media's hands, just so they have some plausible deniability. That's the way his team works. They have a policy of ignoring reporters of the Toronto Star - the largest paper in Toronto. And now, since March, there has been this haze over Ford of substance abuse and public drunken-ness. It's not all in this article - for example, he's been ejected at least once from a bar for rowdyness attributed to intoxication. Alaney2k (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- if "what people wish to know" is the scandals, they can google their favorite tabloid. we are presenting an encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's not an appropriate response and you know it. We should not suppress information at Wiki subjectively. The material is contentious, but it is completely pertinent to the subject of the article. Alaney2k (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It is a completely appropriate response. If you want to write for scandalpedia, you will need to go elsewhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- You're over-stepping your brief, TRPoD. There's every indication that this scandal (however it plays out) will likely be looked back upon as a defining episode (and perhaps the penultimate one) in the political career of Rob Ford and likely by association, Doug Ford. That being the case, the scandals and their details are noteworthy and belong in this wiki entry (though with scrutiny to maintain the requisite neutral stance). Natty10000 | Natter 21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Once your WP:CRYSTALBALL has been authenticated, I will have no problems utilizing its predictions. Until then, we go based on what is present now, what is present now is not something that meets WP:BLP standards. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- "We go based on what is present now". Is this the royal "we"? Sorry but your interpretation of WP:BLP seems self-serving and leaning towards bias. Natty10000 | Natter 22:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Once your WP:CRYSTALBALL has been authenticated, I will have no problems utilizing its predictions. Until then, we go based on what is present now, what is present now is not something that meets WP:BLP standards. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- You're over-stepping your brief, TRPoD. There's every indication that this scandal (however it plays out) will likely be looked back upon as a defining episode (and perhaps the penultimate one) in the political career of Rob Ford and likely by association, Doug Ford. That being the case, the scandals and their details are noteworthy and belong in this wiki entry (though with scrutiny to maintain the requisite neutral stance). Natty10000 | Natter 21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It is a completely appropriate response. If you want to write for scandalpedia, you will need to go elsewhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's not an appropriate response and you know it. We should not suppress information at Wiki subjectively. The material is contentious, but it is completely pertinent to the subject of the article. Alaney2k (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- if "what people wish to know" is the scandals, they can google their favorite tabloid. we are presenting an encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- the best way to handle it is to incorporate them into the general history of the person. when reading the biography as a whole its generally pretty easy to tell if a particular "controversy" is of any actual importance and impact compared with everything else in the story, or if its just a fart in the windstorm and has nothing but the fact that it was a slow news cycle. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- People who are not familiar with -all- of the controversies/scandals, etc. of Mr. Ford are typically the ones who say trim it down. And respectfully, I think PKT may be that way. But also it's persons who think the article is merely a smear article. I've tried working the opposite way, trying to add more about his actual career to provide balance, but then month after month Ford does something else. The Little Book of Rob Ford is a book entirely composed of his smears on various groups! The day before the crack scandal, there was an item about putting magnets on cars, while skipping out on a council meeting. I removed it for triviality. Prior to that, someone wanted to put in info about his apparently deadly body mass index value - I commented it out. I think the conflict of interest section could be summarized, for certain, but it will be extremely difficult to trim the other controversies section with this subject person and still provide what people wish to know. There was a tag on the article to bring the article up to date, and that was when the March allegations of drunken-ness were being made. There is no mention of his interview where he criticized the football players he coaches as losers who will never amount to anything, and his coaching of the football team - which he has placed at a level of priority over attending council meetings. There is no mention of his hiring people in his mayor's office that work on the football program. It's all fairly murky, and Ford works to keep details out of the media's hands, just so they have some plausible deniability. That's the way his team works. They have a policy of ignoring reporters of the Toronto Star - the largest paper in Toronto. And now, since March, there has been this haze over Ford of substance abuse and public drunken-ness. It's not all in this article - for example, he's been ejected at least once from a bar for rowdyness attributed to intoxication. Alaney2k (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Many editors have suggested that the controversies section be "trimmed down"but they don't do it themselves; hence it never does get trimmed down; at least not very much. Perhaps an editor who has not been expressing any opinions about these matters could do the trimming? May122013 (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is contradictory to leaving it out. Alaney2k (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- There is a HUGE difference between documented things that did happen and have been covered, and allegations of something based on the opinions of 4 people based on a film made by junkies. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- You keep saying "A film made by junkies". Shouldn't that be alleged junkies? At any rate, the allegation has happened, and that ought to be reported. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Echoedmyron, someone used this exact same phrase at BLPN as well. From the initial Gawker/TorStar reporting the photographer was the drug dealer, or an associate of theirs. Some, but not all, drug dealers are also addicts. People addicted to cocaine are not "junkies". The term "junkie" refers exclusively to those with an addiction opiates -- not cocaine. Geo Swan (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- You keep saying "A film made by junkies". Shouldn't that be alleged junkies? At any rate, the allegation has happened, and that ought to be reported. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- There is a HUGE difference between documented things that did happen and have been covered, and allegations of something based on the opinions of 4 people based on a film made by junkies. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I would much rather we had the various controversies put into the general article, rather than a separate section. Controversy sections are, to me, sloppy writing. They also tend to end up as laundry lists of everything anyone considers a controversy. Then people want to balance them with other things, and we get bloated articles. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I do like having controversy mixed into the main article.
- As per "slow news cycle" -- hah! We've got Tim Bosco/Dellen Millard, a very contentious downtown casino vote, a Senate controversy, so many other big news headlines, the Star wouldn't create a story (ever, but particularly) during all of this. -- Zanimum (talk) 20:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- And that isn't even taking into consideration the worldwide news media and talk show attention that this incident has garnered (and presumably will continue to garner until someone comes clean. Natty10000 | Natter 21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Per WP:BLP you need to stop making accusations of criminal activity. Talk pages are covered as well. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Again, consensus does not mean unanimity. Your opinion is just one opinion. Stop acting like it's worth more. I would say a majority do wish a mention, than have it excised completely. It is notable by any measure. Alaney2k (talk) 22:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- BLP does not say "a majority can over-ride this policy". We can wait until we have an actual answer before we include content. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I don't believe that BLP means to censor Wikipedia. That's what you are advocating. We work by WP:CON, including interpretations of BLP. We have a specific rule here to cover this very situation: WP:WELLKNOWN. What is your reason to over-ride that? Alaney2k (talk) 22:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- BLP does not say "a majority can over-ride this policy". We can wait until we have an actual answer before we include content. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Again, consensus does not mean unanimity. Your opinion is just one opinion. Stop acting like it's worth more. I would say a majority do wish a mention, than have it excised completely. It is notable by any measure. Alaney2k (talk) 22:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Per WP:BLP you need to stop making accusations of criminal activity. Talk pages are covered as well. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- And that isn't even taking into consideration the worldwide news media and talk show attention that this incident has garnered (and presumably will continue to garner until someone comes clean. Natty10000 | Natter 21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is contradictory to leaving it out. Alaney2k (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Vastly too much negative content.
This article contains more negative and critical content than Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler. It should give a balanced view of the subject. It is not necessary or desirable to put every negative piece of information (usually from the media) in great detail into the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting "giving a balanced view" requires artificially making sure there is as much content that shows a subject in a positive light as there is content that you think shows the subject in a negative light?
- If this is what you are suggesting:
- From your reading of RS that cover Mr Ford, do you think there is some positive aspect of his career in public life, his career in business, or his personal life, that has not received a fair amount of coverage? Okay, what are the missing positive aspects?
- Are you suggesting we cast out neutrally written, properly referenced coverage of Mr Ford, if we can't find more positive aspects of his life to cover?
- With regard to your comparison of our coverage of Mr Ford and Mr Hitler, leaving aside the moral dimension, once he rose to the position of leadership he aimed for, Mr Hitler started to accomplish his goals. Mr Hitler set out to conquer most of Europe, and he did conquer France, Poland, Czeckoslovakia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria, and significant parts of North Africa and the Soviet Union. He turned Finland, Romania (and Bulgaria(?)) and arguably Italy into nominally sovereign vassal states. If this is what you regard as the positive aspects of our coverage of Mr Hitler, and you think Mr Ford's article lacks coverage of where he reached his goals, has it occurred to you that Mr Ford largely failed to achieve his goals?
- No one is arguing we put every negative piece of information into the article. If you think you can identify information in the article that is not particularly relevant, or is not sufficiently well documented, it would be helpful for you to name the specific coverage you regard as problematic.
- Yesterday I searched the archives of various noticeboards, to see where coverage of Mr Ford had been raised. Back in September 2010 someone argued that coverage of Mr Ford's very public description of "orientals" [sic] as a group who "work like dogs" [sic] was unnecessary, excessive, and that it should be removed. I think that commentators in RS are returning to this controversial comment, in 2013, shows coverage of that comment was appropriate, and, that our coverage of that comment should be expanded.
- So please, if you take your concern to the next step, and actually identify passages you think are unnecessary, please make a serious effort to explain why you think they are unnecessary. Geo Swan (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- I characterize the initial complaint as a 'drive-by'. Too often editors make a comment without any actual interest in improving the article. In the past year, I actually have added more of Ford's political career, although he is much more well known for his controversies. It is his style and I believe sincerely that he himself would not object to being characterized that way. Most of the "negative and critical comment" is simply the mention of his controversial comments. Frankly, I think a lot of persons agree with that content and have no objection. I think if we took out the controversies, it would be reduced to some discussion of his being a conservative and against tax increases and that would be nowhere near a comprehensive article on the man. Alaney2k (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- I was responding to an RfC.
- I characterize the initial complaint as a 'drive-by'. Too often editors make a comment without any actual interest in improving the article. In the past year, I actually have added more of Ford's political career, although he is much more well known for his controversies. It is his style and I believe sincerely that he himself would not object to being characterized that way. Most of the "negative and critical comment" is simply the mention of his controversial comments. Frankly, I think a lot of persons agree with that content and have no objection. I think if we took out the controversies, it would be reduced to some discussion of his being a conservative and against tax increases and that would be nowhere near a comprehensive article on the man. Alaney2k (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- There is vastly too much detail on controversies. Have a look at the two articles that I mentioned above. Two of the worst people in history but both have a lesser proportion of the article on negative aspects than this one. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- In Hitler's case, there are articles on the Holocaust, World War II, etc. This is just one article. Some of the difficulty is that it is current and there are not yet books written on the subject. Meaning, you have to provide some context instead of just making a citation where you can use an author's summation. I'll ask you too to make specific suggestions. Would you agree that it would be acceptable to have a list of his quotes? That might reduce the prose count, but I wonder what section that would go in. I might add that there is more to Ford not in the article, such as his opposition to arts grants and opposition to gay and lesbians that is not in the article? Besides, Wikipedia is not paper. Alaney2k (talk) 19:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- I am not going to argue here any longer. There seems to be a trend on WP to use it as a soapbox which needs addressing more generally. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- In Hitler's case, there are articles on the Holocaust, World War II, etc. This is just one article. Some of the difficulty is that it is current and there are not yet books written on the subject. Meaning, you have to provide some context instead of just making a citation where you can use an author's summation. I'll ask you too to make specific suggestions. Would you agree that it would be acceptable to have a list of his quotes? That might reduce the prose count, but I wonder what section that would go in. I might add that there is more to Ford not in the article, such as his opposition to arts grants and opposition to gay and lesbians that is not in the article? Besides, Wikipedia is not paper. Alaney2k (talk) 19:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- There is vastly too much detail on controversies. Have a look at the two articles that I mentioned above. Two of the worst people in history but both have a lesser proportion of the article on negative aspects than this one. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
As a courtesy to other to other contributors could we please discuss controversial edits on the talk page, not in the edit summaries?
I added a couple of sentences to the paragraph about Ford's infamous comment about how "orientals ... work like dogs". User:Red Pen of Doom excised it 12 minutes later, claiming "per BLPN and talk". In fact, exciser actually had made no attempt to explain this excision, on BLPN, or the talk page. So I specifically asked for an explanation, on their talk page. Since they still didn't bother to explain I restored the passage.
Before I was able to leave this explanation exciser excised this passage a 2nd time -- this time with the inadequated edit summary "already covered".
That reliable sources tied the Gawker/TorStar reports of the crack video to Ford's comments that "orientals ... work like dogs" is NOT already covered, which I think makes excisers's edit summary highly misleading.
Rather than reverting this unexplained excision myself, a second time, I am going to leave the here, and request someone who agrees with me that their unexplained excision has no policy basis to revert it.
I have explained elsewhere how making controversial edits, where the sole explanation for the edit is in the edit summary is a terrible trigger to edit warring. There is a grave temptation for the reverted party to do their own revert, so they could reply with their own edit summary. The result? Instant edit-war.
Not only are edit-wars to be avoided, but this deeply troubling edit tactic is a grave dis-service to later readers -- who should be able to count on finding the discussion of complicated issues with the article, on the talk page. Even if the later reader figures out that the real discussion is embedded in the edit summary, they will have to step through the diffs, one at a time, to really follow the discussion. Following a discussion where one has to pay attention to the edit summaries; and the actual diffs; and the talk page; imposes a heavy and unnecessary cognitive burden on respondents. I urge exciser, and everyone else, to never rely solely on edit summaries to explain complicated or controversial edits. Geo Swan (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Geo Swan (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- If you want to discuss things on the talk page , how about starting with a discussion of why this article has so much negative content on the subject. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- As per the comments above and here, I will revert this instance of basically RedPen's unexplained excisions. Geo Swan (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Too much bumpf to scroll through before the TOC?
Does anyone else agree this talk page has too many screenfuls of bumpf to scroll through, prior to the table of contents?
I added an explicit __TOC__ prior to the templates that instantiate the bumpf. Geo Swan (talk) 19:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Could remove mention of the trial to remove him from office from the lead. Since he won his appeal, it is no longer as important. TFD (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- By bumpf I was referring to the half dozen administrative templates that instantiated to several screens full of information I think we all had to skip over to get to the actual discussions.
{{talk header}}
{{BLP noticeboard}}
{{Canadian English}}
{{[[Template:|]]}}
{{WikiProject Biography}}
{{WikiProject Canada}}
{{WikiProject Politics}}
{{Old peer review}}
- I wasn't suggesting any actual topics for discussion should be removed, and I would prefer the automatic archiving be relied upo to put stale discussions in the archive. Geo Swan (talk) 13:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Lead needs to make some mention of his controversies
The lead is biased in Ford's favor by not mentioning any of his scandals or whatever you want to call them. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Just say that he is controversial. There are just too many incidents to put them in the lead. TFD (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Until this and other issues shake out, it's a bit early to be saying just how accurate the lead is Natty10000 | Natter 23:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Hoax?
Gawker's update today says this: "First order of business: The last time we established contact with the people who are in possession of the video was this past Sunday, and we have not been able to reach them since."
Also, have a look at the graphic they use for this "story"[7]. Is this really a reliable source? Not in my book. Since they have now raised $160,000 I am wondering why the video vendor has become incommunicado; also, I always wondered why they set the goal so high; the news reports only said that $100,000 was being asked. I suggest we hedge our bets on this aspect of the BLP by not mentioning it at all at least until after Monday when the crowdsourcing campaign is over. May122013 (talk) 04:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Losing contact with the video holder does not transform the reporters having viewed the video as having never happened. The Gawker graphic used for entertainment purposes has nothing to do with the editing of this article. Gawker has become a very respected news source over the years with countless notable stories coming from their websites. --Oakshade (talk) 04:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- We should not use Gawker as a source in this article (it is used in support of the statement that they first reported the story.) However the story is mostly supported by news media, which are rs, and we are not claiming the video is genuine. If and when a final determination is made, then we can report it. Also, WP:BLP does not apply. We are merely reporting what has appeared in the press. TFD (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that a previous central discussion conclded Gawker should not generally be seen as a reliable source? If this is what you are suggesting please provide a link here to the discussion or discussions you think established this.
- Even if, for the sake of argument, there was a central discussion that concluded that Gawker wasn't generally a reliable source, I suggest that Gawker would still be a reliable source for the original reporting from the Gawker reporters. That is, something like: "On May 14, 2013, reporters from Gawker reported that they were shown a recording that appeared to show Rob Ford smoking crack.<ref name=Gawker2013-05-14/>" Geo Swan (talk) 12:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Toronto Police Services has gone on record that they are "monitoring" this controversy. I suggest that, instead of it being an indication that this is a hoax, Gawker not being able to reach the drug dealer with the video could mean the video owner is concerned that extra police monitoring puts him at greater risk of arrest. A sensible precaution would have been to throw out the cell phone that reporters had phoned them on, because, if the police got its number they could get a warrant, and use that phone to arrest them. If the police had the cooperation of the cell phone provider, even turning the phone on would allow the cell phone provider to locate the cell area the phone was in. Geo Swan (talk) 12:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Sellers of video "vanish" : Globe and Mail
Looking exactly like a hoax now. Canada's premier reliable source, the globe and mail's headline today :"Gawker’s ‘Crackstarter’ campaign hits bump: Sellers of alleged Ford video vanish" [8] If anyone reinserts this garbage, please be sure to include this aspect. May122013 (talk) 14:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Um, no. Just because you think it is a hoax doesn't make it one. That is you own POV coming into play. And the Globe article does not itself say that it is a hoax. The allegations should stand, as reported allegations; when the mayor makes a meaningful reply to the allegations, add that in. For crying out loud, the Toronto Sun is reporting that chief of staff Mark Towhey was fired for urging Ford to seek help: [9]. Echoedmyron (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- We are following BLP by including the item. WP:WELLKNOWN. May, don't keep reverting or you will be reported and asked to be blocked. Alaney2k (talk) 14:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Seconding Echoedmyron's "hoax" point. You might have a leg to stand on had reporters from Gawker and the Star not seen the video. But unfortunately, the elephant in the 'hoax' room is that they have. The other point is that the story has moved on from the video to Rob Ford's responses (or lack thereof) over the last week, responses which combined with the sudden lack of accessibility even to Ford-friendly media outlets and yesterday's peremptory firing of his Chief of Staff speak more of a wounded-and-cornered animal than of an innocent man wronged. Natty10000 | Natter 14:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- We are following BLP by including the item. WP:WELLKNOWN. May, don't keep reverting or you will be reported and asked to be blocked. Alaney2k (talk) 14:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- May122013, you're actually breaking WP:BLP and WP:NOR by making such a claim with zero sources making such a stipulation. That Globe and Mail piece is simply reporting the content of the Gawker one that states the video holders are currently incommunicado. That doesn't make the video that the reporters viewed a hoax and is only your original research speculation. --Oakshade (talk) 15:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- I see that May has been warned about his disruptive editing and has even taken his complaint to the Village Pump. I think we should probably ask for an administrator to look into this editor. If this person claims to be so knowledgeable about BLP, then the ed. must have previous experience with Wiki, but May122013 only signed on, on May 20 this year. Was this editor previously blocked? Alaney2k (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- FWIW, May122013 claims to have been User:Mr.grantevans2 and prior to that User:Mr.grantevans but both times 'forgot' his/her password. It may be that an admin should look into that further. Something doesn't seem quite on to me Natty10000 | Natter 15:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- By his/her own admission May122013 (talk) used to edit under Mr.grantevans2. This user has old history dating back to fall 2010 when he edited this article and others during the 2010 election. In both incarnations he likes to remove content from his talk page that he doesn't like. See [10] and here [11]. It's as if he doesn't understand the nature of page history in Wikipedia. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Under the previous account, his Ford article contributions include promoting a paragraph of the article up to section status, based on the fact it was "widely reported" (see edit summary.) -- Zanimum (talk) 18:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- By his/her own admission May122013 (talk) used to edit under Mr.grantevans2. This user has old history dating back to fall 2010 when he edited this article and others during the 2010 election. In both incarnations he likes to remove content from his talk page that he doesn't like. See [10] and here [11]. It's as if he doesn't understand the nature of page history in Wikipedia. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- FWIW, May122013 claims to have been User:Mr.grantevans2 and prior to that User:Mr.grantevans but both times 'forgot' his/her password. It may be that an admin should look into that further. Something doesn't seem quite on to me Natty10000 | Natter 15:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I have created a report on WP:3RRNB about May122013 (talk · contribs)'s behavior on this article. Four reverts equals a violation of 3RR, whether the user wants to admit to it or not. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Guys, I don't mean to be disruptive and hope I am not. The 3RR complaint was determined "no violation" so perhaps there is a stronger argument against inclusion than some think. I will likely stop editing again if I can not be of any constructive use here. May122013 (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- You certainly are. The article stays to the letter of WP:WELLKNOWN. Allegations have been made. We are not purporting that the video exists or not, only that it has been reported. You are edit warring. Maybe you have not violated the 3RR rule, but you are certainly edit warring. Alaney2k (talk) 19:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Guys, I don't mean to be disruptive and hope I am not. The 3RR complaint was determined "no violation" so perhaps there is a stronger argument against inclusion than some think. I will likely stop editing again if I can not be of any constructive use here. May122013 (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Toronto Community Housing
Over the past year or so I have been working on this article, editors have complained about the large amount of negative reporting. I don't believe the article is slanted, although there is a fair amount of controversial activities reported. I simply have had not much success on finding sources for several items that do reflect well on him. (Say what you will about that!) His supporters have claimed that Ford has helped out persons in Toronto Community Housing but I've not been able to find any cites. (Although, it might be a lead-in to the firing of the TCH directors, which, again, might be taken as a negative report by his supporters.) It might be due to the private nature, but I'd like to include it if it is true. Frankly, despite all his bluster, as a councillor, he did seem to help out his constituents' individual problems. Does anyone have any sources? Alaney2k (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Rob Ford Just Gave a Press Conference; It was on CNN
[12] Those who wish to include everything about this possible hoax or political dirty trick may wish to include the Subject's first detailed response. He said “I do not use crack cocaine....As for a video, I cannot comment on a video that I have not seen, or does not exist.” and said that it is "business as usual in Toronto" and that he wanted to thank the enormous numbers of people who have emailed their support of him. May122013 (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Sheesh, if you don't clip it out, it belongs in there, certainly. Need a cite with the text, just waiting for that. Alaney2k (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- [13] May122013 (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- May122013, given your post I think you quite clearly betrayed a bias and shouldn't be editing the Wiki entry on Rob Ford. Insomuch as the only two possibilities you cite are "possible hoax or political dirty trick", that demonstrates your bias against the Gawker and Star reports which are just as likely (if not more so). Natty10000 | Natter 20:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- [13] May122013 (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I have begun a discussion thread at BLPN here. TFD (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- There's already a lengthy discussion at BLPN, here. Echoedmyron (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- The earlier posting did not present the disputed edit or the sources used, and was written in a tendentious manner, making it appear that editors were reporting information from a tape which may not even exist, rather than reporting what reliable sources throughout the world have been reporting on an on-going basis. TFD (talk) 21:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- You are now engaging in forumshopping at this point -- adding a thread at BLP/N when there was already one, and adding a new thread at AN as well, and adding a thread on an admin's talk page is clearly a desire to override WP:BLPCRIME through posting at enough places that you hope someone will override that admin's decision. The rules are clear - the material may not be re-added until and unless a clear consensus here finds it to be properly added - that is why WP:BLP exists. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:16, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- The earlier posting did not present the disputed edit or the sources used, and was written in a tendentious manner, making it appear that editors were reporting information from a tape which may not even exist, rather than reporting what reliable sources throughout the world have been reporting on an on-going basis. TFD (talk) 21:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
We have a section called 'allegations of substance abuse'. They are allegations Ford has denied. By this logic all of those should go too. So if Mr Ford says something is not true, then we delete it , even with massive and in this case, world wide press coverage. Seems to me to be a little over the top. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:40, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- And Rob Ford has lied trying to duck controversy before ie DUI, arena confrontation, etc. It's rather too early in the game to be excising things based on an equivocated denial of the principal. Natty10000 | Natter 12:06, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Actual consensus is required for addition of contentious material
This is by policy WP:BLP. Let's see if there is an affirmative consensus that the addition of amterial containing an allegation of a crime is present here. I would note that "denying a crime" is insufficient as grounds for then saying "now we can add the allegations" just like if a politician says "I did not kill George Gnarph" we can not add "Bill Grapgh alleged he say a video of the politician killing Goerge Gnarph." At such time as asctual evidence is available, then we can add charges -- Wikipedia is not a newspaper nor a tabloid, and the WP:DEADLINE is clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- This denial being covered by major new agencies throughout the world is not enough? I realize we are not a newspaper, indeed I started watching this page once the Gawker story came out, to be sure stuff was not added. But, now we have a case where everyone and their brother know about this and it is being covered by RSs. I think it deserves a mention. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- It would seem to me, that whether or not the allegations can be substantiated, that the controversy that resulted, leading to the mayor of North America's 4th largest city having to hold a press conference to explicitly deny that he uses crack cocaine needs to be mentioned. And to include that, coverage of the allegations is required. Said coverage may certainly stress that the claims have not been substantiated. Echoedmyron (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- The biased editing/reverting of this article is getting out of hand and is degrading into low Chauvin-type farce. To excise in its entirety any mention of the video would be to render the entry as a whole worthless by virtue of cherry-picking which facts are comforting to supporters of the subject. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the point of any encyclopedic source (Wiki or what-have-you) is to provide warts-and-all coverage of a given topic not just what its adherents would have recalled. Perhaps the video will turn out to be worthless (if it actually sees the light of day, that is). The point now is less the video than the response by Rob Ford(or lack thereof) to it. Pretending it didn't happen just isn't going to cut it.
- I agree with Echoedmyron that the mention stays in with qualifier Natty10000 | Natter 14:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- It would seem to me, that whether or not the allegations can be substantiated, that the controversy that resulted, leading to the mayor of North America's 4th largest city having to hold a press conference to explicitly deny that he uses crack cocaine needs to be mentioned. And to include that, coverage of the allegations is required. Said coverage may certainly stress that the claims have not been substantiated. Echoedmyron (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Per BLPCRIME this cannot be added to this article, also read WP:BLPGOSSIP. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- I've full protected the page for two days. Considering the contentiousness of the BLP info, it shouldn't be included unless there is a consensus to include it here. I have no opinion on the merits of this case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP is being used to justify removal of this content. However, the policy is quite clear about what to do in situations invloving allegations against public figures: "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." From my reading, the BLP policy clearly allows mentions of allegations if they are sourced to reliable parties, as they are here. The Interior (Talk) 14:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- And the requirement for re-adding contentuious claims is not dependent on your argument that the person is notable -- EVERY person with a BLP is "notable" - but that does not mean that contentious claims do not need consensus. We do seem to have quite a bit of "negative material" in this BLP, this claim of a crime still runs afoul of WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- In favour of retaining mention. Seconding The Interior's point. Qualified, neutral-stance mention of the incident belongs in the entry. Otherwise, the entry as a whole risks being nothing more than a PR item for the subject. That the subject of the entry has created a number of negative notable situations is not an excuse to eliminate them until/unless there are a comparable number of positive notable entries. Natty10000 | Natter 14:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- Collect, all I'm saying is that consensus should be grounded on policy, and in this case, the policy doesn't support the removal of these allegations. As for the state of the bio in general, it's not great - I've been watching it for a couple years now, and have been reverting the worst of the Ford-bashing. But, I think this has been raised above, Mr. Ford generates a remarkable amount of negative press. He's not a air-brushed, P.R.-managed politician, he shoots from the hip. That's part of his allure, but he also pays for it in the press. What we really should be thinking about is if the theoretical authoritative biography of this man, when all is said and done, would include this incident. I think the answer is yes. The Interior (Talk) 14:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- And the requirement for re-adding contentuious claims is not dependent on your argument that the person is notable -- EVERY person with a BLP is "notable" - but that does not mean that contentious claims do not need consensus. We do seem to have quite a bit of "negative material" in this BLP, this claim of a crime still runs afoul of WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)