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→Discussion about discussion: I did not "assert that IP editors aren't experienced." I just pointed out that it looks that way |
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::::As a matter of fact you'd even failed to understand that journalistic statement like "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader" wouldn't ever be accepted by Wikipedia. That isn't something Beijing can actually say with such wordings, and Wikipedia has an official policy not to endorse or reject ROC's existence as a sovereign state. |
::::As a matter of fact you'd even failed to understand that journalistic statement like "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader" wouldn't ever be accepted by Wikipedia. That isn't something Beijing can actually say with such wordings, and Wikipedia has an official policy not to endorse or reject ROC's existence as a sovereign state. |
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::::You claimed that "''almost all of the rest of the world uses the name Taiwan to refer to the whole country today. Ignoring that point just makes you look silly, stubborn, rude and stuck in the past.''", but you didn't even reply to my question two days and a half ago at 18:32, 10 February 2012: Do they specifically and explicitly include the non-Taiwan parts of the contemporary republic? It's really time to ask who's ignoring who, and who's ignoring the hard fact and doing the damage. It's perhaps time to follow Ireland's path to submit this trouble to the ArbCom for considerations. [[Special:Contributions/218.250.159.25|218.250.159.25]] ([[User talk:218.250.159.25|talk]]) 09:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC) |
::::You claimed that "''almost all of the rest of the world uses the name Taiwan to refer to the whole country today. Ignoring that point just makes you look silly, stubborn, rude and stuck in the past.''", but you didn't even reply to my question two days and a half ago at 18:32, 10 February 2012: Do they specifically and explicitly include the non-Taiwan parts of the contemporary republic? It's really time to ask who's ignoring who, and who's ignoring the hard fact and doing the damage. It's perhaps time to follow Ireland's path to submit this trouble to the ArbCom for considerations. [[Special:Contributions/218.250.159.25|218.250.159.25]] ([[User talk:218.250.159.25|talk]]) 09:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::I did not "assert that IP editors aren't experienced." I pointed out, with very positive intentions, that people who choose not to register run the risk of looking inexperienced. Any mistake they make will be put down by others to the fact that they are only posting from an IP address and therefore probably don't know the rules properly and don't really have a strong background on Wikipedia. I still cannot comprehend the logic of why so many editors on this page remain unregistered. And before anyone says "because they can", that is simply not a reason. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 19:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Most references to "Taiwan" include all those territories under the direct current control of the government, including Kinmen etc. See the factbooks and country profiles referenced ad nauseam. Even if some do not, that doesn't affect the fundamental point about what the broad entity is called (and such issues, to the extent that they are issues, would of course still arise whatever it was called). People keep telling you that, and keep pointing out that plenty of countries have similar issues of sovereignty and integration at the margins. The wider issue about overall sovereignty/independence is irrelevant to the name too, and again would arise whatever we call this thing. Also, plenty of countries have come into existence out of nothing or out of other, previous countries; and also have moved their territorial bases or centres over time, even if not quite as dramatically as ROC. Everyone else in the world copes with these difficulties while referring to "Taiwan" in 2012. Wikipedia can too, despite what you happen to think. All your points have been answered to the extent that they ever can be - that's why people are getting p#ssed off with you for continually raising them. ROC is not what the country is called by anyone today - it is called Taiwan. Hence, the WP article that purports to be about the country cannot be called ROC - it should be called Taiwan. Perhaps we can also have a more esoteric article about ROC and its history (indeed we do already of course to some extent eg the History and Government pages), but the basic point here is really very, very simple. |
:::::Most references to "Taiwan" include all those territories under the direct current control of the government, including Kinmen etc. See the factbooks and country profiles referenced ad nauseam. Even if some do not, that doesn't affect the fundamental point about what the broad entity is called (and such issues, to the extent that they are issues, would of course still arise whatever it was called). People keep telling you that, and keep pointing out that plenty of countries have similar issues of sovereignty and integration at the margins. The wider issue about overall sovereignty/independence is irrelevant to the name too, and again would arise whatever we call this thing. Also, plenty of countries have come into existence out of nothing or out of other, previous countries; and also have moved their territorial bases or centres over time, even if not quite as dramatically as ROC. Everyone else in the world copes with these difficulties while referring to "Taiwan" in 2012. Wikipedia can too, despite what you happen to think. All your points have been answered to the extent that they ever can be - that's why people are getting p#ssed off with you for continually raising them. ROC is not what the country is called by anyone today - it is called Taiwan. Hence, the WP article that purports to be about the country cannot be called ROC - it should be called Taiwan. Perhaps we can also have a more esoteric article about ROC and its history (indeed we do already of course to some extent eg the History and Government pages), but the basic point here is really very, very simple. |
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:::::ps: please do not respond with another "what about ...?" <small>'''[[User:N-HH|<font color="navy">N-HH</font>]]''' '''[[User talk:N-HH|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/N-HH|<font color="blue">edits</font>]]'''</small> 14:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC) |
:::::ps: please do not respond with another "what about ...?" <small>'''[[User:N-HH|<font color="navy">N-HH</font>]]''' '''[[User talk:N-HH|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/N-HH|<font color="blue">edits</font>]]'''</small> 14:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:41, 13 February 2012
Taiwan has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Talk:Republic of China/article guidelines
Please make some moves (part 1)
There is currently at least a 3-way overlap between Taiwan, Republic of China, Republic of China (1912-1949). Then a 2-way overlap with the timeline articles 2011 in Taiwan, 2011 in the Republic of China. After that there are thousands of historical articles still pointing to China which is really the "People's Republic of China". For example Ulysses S. Grant never went to the "PRC->China". He went to one of the older dynasties and the link should be fixed. Benjwong (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- You can't fix overlap with moves. The solution is merges, in particular of Taiwan and the post-1949 state on the island (and a few much smaller islands). Kanguole 09:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- A handful of the smaller islands of the Republic of China aren't part of Taiwan. 61.18.170.236 (talk) 11:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, just as there are similar handfuls of smaller islands in the Republic of Iceland, the Republic of Madagascar, the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka and the Republic of Cuba. In each case the difference isn't considered sufficient to justify separate articles. Kanguole 11:47, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why are you saying the same thing twice? You did it already at 19:15, 20 January 2012. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are 1991 in Russia and 1991 in the Soviet Union overlapped? Are RSFSR and Soviet Union overlapped? Are Great Britain and United Kingdom overlapped? 61.18.170.236 (talk) 11:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
The obvious answer is: no, you can't move or merge them. Any attempt to equate "Republic of China" is misguided for three reasons:
- Republic of China, the political entity, controls Taiwan and a few other islands;
- ROC continues to lay claim to mainland China until today, according to their constitution;
- Historical: ROC controlled all of mainland China as well between 1912 and 1949.
Republic of China (1912-1949) exists as a separate article in the same sense that many historically significant temporal subdivisions of political regimes. This is simply content forking for the sake of clarity of presentation, and is not a problem. Deryck C. 14:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I believe your point (1) is misleading, because "Taiwan" could refer to either the country or the island.. but it usually refers to the country, when it is used in the English language. Consider the Google search results for:
- "Kinmen, Taiwan" - 109,000 hits.
- "Kinmen, Republic of China" - 9,150 hits.
- Any evidence I've seen so far suggests that the term "Taiwan", with no further qualifiers, usually refers to the entity officially known as the Republic of China, and it does not usually refer to the island (in spite of the current Wikipedia article arrangement). So it is very confusing when editors here use the term "Taiwan" to refer only to the island.. since that is contrary to regular usage. Mlm42 (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Deryck can you name any other example like Republic of China (1912-1949)? I don't think there's any. The most comparable case would perhaps be West Germany, which is indeed "Federal Republic of Germany (1949-1990)". 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's unclear which talk page section relates to the proposed move banner on the article so I'll post here. Obviously, for reasons well outlined above by Deryck Chan this is an impractical suggestion - and quite simply the state is called "Republic of China", not "Taiwan". Wikipedia needs an article on both the state and the island, and the current naming of the two articles is the only viable solution. There is a notice at the top of Taiwan which reads This article is about the island. For the state governing it which is also commonly called "Taiwan", see Republic of China. For other uses, see Taiwan (disambiguation). - this is sufficient such that readers looking for an article on the state can get there in a click. Internal links concerning the state lead to Republic of China (or should be corrected if they do not do so). -- LukeSurl t c 10:32, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- To restate that more briefly - "We can't change it because we haven't changed it yet." HiLo48 (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with your summation! My statement on internal links refers to the fact that someone clicking links internally within Wikipedia is unlikely to end up at Taiwan when they wish to view Republic of China. The current naming of articles (with disambiguation headers) is, in my opinion, the optimal arrangement. LukeSurl t c 11:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thereby completely ignoring the extremely well sourced fact that most people and media round the world call the country Taiwan today. Wikipedia's retention of the names from the political battles of half a century ago just makes us look silly. HiLo48 (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:GOOGLEHITS somewhat relates here. Taiwan is indeed the more common term, however the terms "Taiwan" and "Republic of China", though related, are not 100% interchangeable. "Republic of China" is a better name for this article because it:
- Is the official name of the state in English.
- It refers to the entire state, and not just the main island.
- Reflects the history of the state in terms of its previous governance of the China region.
- Reflects the current claims of the state, claims which continue to dominate its foreign policy.
- "Taiwan" refers to an territory whose sovereignty is disputed between two states, a dispute which is still active. Republic of China is one of the states that contests this. -- LukeSurl t c 11:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:GOOGLEHITS somewhat relates here. Taiwan is indeed the more common term, however the terms "Taiwan" and "Republic of China", though related, are not 100% interchangeable. "Republic of China" is a better name for this article because it:
- Thereby completely ignoring the extremely well sourced fact that most people and media round the world call the country Taiwan today. Wikipedia's retention of the names from the political battles of half a century ago just makes us look silly. HiLo48 (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with your summation! My statement on internal links refers to the fact that someone clicking links internally within Wikipedia is unlikely to end up at Taiwan when they wish to view Republic of China. The current naming of articles (with disambiguation headers) is, in my opinion, the optimal arrangement. LukeSurl t c 11:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- To restate that more briefly - "We can't change it because we haven't changed it yet." HiLo48 (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- They're quite interchangeable.
- We don't use WP:Official names, we use WP:Common names.
- Taiwan also refers to the entire state.
- History is dealt in the history section.
- I'd like to see some serious evidence that the ROC has made any recent attempts to gain the mainland, let alone that this dominantes foreign policy. Even with this, why pick a name with the explicit purpose of reflecting something? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- LukeSurl - Until YOU address the common name issue, which is the fundamental reason for this discussion, you are just spouting political dogma, not discussing. HiLo48 (talk) 18:01, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'll also point out, again, that the ROC GIO office uses the term Taiwan to refer to the country, not just the island, in a number of its press releases. If the ROC government finds it acceptable to use the word Taiwan in reference to the country, and it's clearly used by the vast majority of English language sources, why is there such resistance here? Are you guys looking at this from a neutral, policy-based perspective or are you arguing personal politics? TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 19:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- They're quite interchangeable.
I hope I don't come across as dogmatic (I'm an Englishman from Norwich with no opinion on the politics of the region). What I am more is pedantic - my personal preference is for article titles that prioritise accuracy. Although "Taiwan" is the more common term, when talking about the state, the more formal "Republic of China" is the more accurate description of the entity described in the article. It's a balancing act in all such articles, but, for what it's worth, I prefer in this case to maintain the current situation for the names of the articles on the state and the island.
The state described in the article was the government of the whole China region until the Chinese Civil War reduced its territory to the islands. Considering this article's history section starts in 1912 it makes sense to have the article title as something which is applicable to the entire time period discussed (essentially "Taiwan" is the current common name, but for much of the 20th century the common name would have been China). Lastly, in terms of neutrality, as both the PRC and the ROC assert claims over "China" it seems neutral to have both states articles' names to refer to "China", rather than delineate one to the island of Taiwan. LukeSurl t c 19:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I continue to find the argument that taking a position contrary to the rest of the english speaking world is neutral to be an unconvincing one. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- LukeSurl, accuracy is certainly an important aspect of Wikipedia, but its importance is more focused on article content, rather than article titles. On Wikipedia, an article title is basically just a bit of text intended for locating the right article. This is why our WP:COMMONNAME policy exists, and why we have articles at United States instead of United States of America, Mexico instead of United Mexican States, Bill Clinton instead of William Jefferson Clinton, and countless other articles. These are clear indicators that the common name of a subject typically trumps more accurate names. In the case of the United States, there's even ambiguity there between which 'United States' is being referred to, America or Mexico.
- This basically stems from the purpose and limitations of the article title. The limitations, firstly, are that we cannot convey the subtleties, nuances and controversies of the name of a subject in its article title. There just simply isn't enough space. Secondly, the purpose of the article title is to locate the article, not to educate the reader on the article's subject. This means that factors such as what the reader is going to type in when searching for the article outweigh factors of education, which are left to the article's content to achieve where it has much more space to explain things.
- This is why proponents of the change have put forward overwhelming evidence that the name Taiwan is dominant in English language sources, and is even used in official press releases from the ROC's GIO (Government Information Office). Looking at other article title changes across the project, it becomes clear that WP:COMMONNAME is held to be a strong argument in favour of particular titles, even in cases where I disagree (such as a recent change from Universal Serial Bus to the more common, but less precise, USB). TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- But it is not just a question of common names. Can you imagine there is an article on "Bill Clinton" and "William Jefferson Clinton" that are basically about the exact same topic. Let me break this down for those who are new to this topic. The umbrella term is NOT Taiwan. The umbrella term is China, which now belongs exclusively to the PRC article. Benjwong (talk) 03:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Absolute rubbish. According to common usage the world over, the umbrella term today is Taiwan. Only those still fighting an impossible war from over half a centruy ago think otherwise. Your view is actually a fringe one. It's time for you war lovers to drop the dogma. HiLo48 (talk) 03:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Clearly you are in this discussion because the umbrella term China no longer covers the Republic of China. You are not in this discussion because you want to call it Taiwan all of a sudden in 2012. People have wanted to call it Taiwan officially since the days of early independence, it is nothing new. Benjwong (talk) 04:05, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Making assumptions about why people are involved in the discussion isn't productive (and I'm guilty of it myself at times so I'm not waggling my finger at you). You said 'because the umbrella term China no longer covers the Republic of China' and you're essentially correct. But that's not an ideology that proponents of the move are trying to push, it's an observable fact in the majority of English language material. Wikipedia's article on the PRC was moved to China with respect for the fact that even though some people may not like it, the way a term is used by the majority of sources is the way Wikipedia determines what term to use itself. Remember, we reflect our sources and our policies are designed to enforce or encourage that. WP:COMMONNAME was a very strong deciding factor in the PRC->China move and it's a strong argument here as well. That's not coming from an ideological perspective of taking sides in the great PRC-ROC war of support, it's coming from a simple 'these are our rules and this article should also change to be in line with those rules' perspective. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 04:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Clearly you are in this discussion because the umbrella term China no longer covers the Republic of China. You are not in this discussion because you want to call it Taiwan all of a sudden in 2012. People have wanted to call it Taiwan officially since the days of early independence, it is nothing new. Benjwong (talk) 04:05, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Absolute rubbish. According to common usage the world over, the umbrella term today is Taiwan. Only those still fighting an impossible war from over half a centruy ago think otherwise. Your view is actually a fringe one. It's time for you war lovers to drop the dogma. HiLo48 (talk) 03:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- But it is not just a question of common names. Can you imagine there is an article on "Bill Clinton" and "William Jefferson Clinton" that are basically about the exact same topic. Let me break this down for those who are new to this topic. The umbrella term is NOT Taiwan. The umbrella term is China, which now belongs exclusively to the PRC article. Benjwong (talk) 03:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- (After an Edit conflict) Yes, TechnoSymbiosis is right. You really shouldn't make assumptions. I am in this discussion because a major newspaper in my country (regarded as an excellent source across Wikipedia) posted a headline last week saying "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader". It was 100% clear what it meant. I became involved in a heated discussion at In The News where some editors said we couldn't say Taiwan, even though similar stories the world over used that name. I thought that not using the name Taiwan was stupid, and still do. It was suggested that those of us with that different viewpoint come here to discuss it. Can you discuss the popular name please? HiLo48 (talk) 04:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Look, I am completely ok with using the name "Taiwan" all the way across and leave ROC as nothing more than a historic name after the PRC->China move. But people are saying those islands managed by ROC government keeps the ROC name legitimate. If you want to match it to real life situations, Taiwanese haven't called themselves Chinese for a long time. Benjwong (talk) 04:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I realise that former president Chen Shui-bian was from a different political party with a different ideology to the current leadership of Taiwan, but I thought this article, originally from the Financial Times and republished on the GIO government website, contains a very interesting statement from Chen. Quoted:
- "Similarly, China is carrying out a united front campaign against Taiwan which I summarize as a "fivefold transformation" policy-to belittle, marginalize, and localize Taiwan, delegitimize Taiwan's government, and deny the sovereignty of Taiwan. These are all moves to change and damage the status quo in the Taiwan Strait. Taiwan is a sovereign nation. It is by no means subordinate to the People's Republic of China, nor is it a part or a province of the PRC. Taiwan is a country. We have governmental authority and enjoy national sovereignty. Nonetheless, China is using its fivefold united front tactics in an attempt to change the status quo in the Taiwan Strait." (emphasis mine)
- There are several other articles on the GIO website explicitly stating that Taiwan is a country, and there are countless other articles on the GIO website showing that even in official capacity, Taiwan is used in reference to the country itself just as much as Republic of China is. In the end, I suppose I find it confusing that press releases from the era of DPP rule use Taiwan in reference to the country, and press releases from the era of KMT rule use Taiwan in reference to the country, but despite this apparent bipartisan support for use of the term, and despite its vast widespread acceptance in the English language, somehow the term is still unacceptable to name an encyclopedia article? TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is actually quite a controversial issue in Taiwanese domestic politics. The DPP will assert "Taiwan is an independent country" while the KMT will assert "The Republic of China is an independent country." These are conceptually different issues, and the articles you quoted come from the DPP. The KMT will not assert that Taiwan is an independent country without invoking the Republic of China, nor will it assert that Taiwan is independent relative to the mainland. But what does this have anything to do with where the countries template should reside? This does not counter the fact that Taiwan is the common name of the Republic of China, but suggests that we should be careful in distinguishing the use of these terms in article text.--Jiang (talk) 05:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I realise that former president Chen Shui-bian was from a different political party with a different ideology to the current leadership of Taiwan, but I thought this article, originally from the Financial Times and republished on the GIO government website, contains a very interesting statement from Chen. Quoted:
- Look, I am completely ok with using the name "Taiwan" all the way across and leave ROC as nothing more than a historic name after the PRC->China move. But people are saying those islands managed by ROC government keeps the ROC name legitimate. If you want to match it to real life situations, Taiwanese haven't called themselves Chinese for a long time. Benjwong (talk) 04:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- (After an Edit conflict) Yes, TechnoSymbiosis is right. You really shouldn't make assumptions. I am in this discussion because a major newspaper in my country (regarded as an excellent source across Wikipedia) posted a headline last week saying "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader". It was 100% clear what it meant. I became involved in a heated discussion at In The News where some editors said we couldn't say Taiwan, even though similar stories the world over used that name. I thought that not using the name Taiwan was stupid, and still do. It was suggested that those of us with that different viewpoint come here to discuss it. Can you discuss the popular name please? HiLo48 (talk) 04:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Trying to analyze the strength of a political actor's arguments does not factor into our considerations of what an article should be named or how we should be using particular proper names in article text. The policy remains NPOV, common name, and accuracy. I don't see your point. It is never Wikipedia's position to assert that either "ROC is an independent country" or that "Taiwan is an independent country" or the contrary of these two statements on the basis of our understanding of the "strength" of a particular position; it is Wikipedia's position to use the terms Republic of China and Taiwan in a manner that is sensitive of the way the involved parties use and regard these terms.--Jiang (talk) 05:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- You have explained that "Republic of China" is the name of the country preferred by one of the major political groups in the country, and "Taiwan" the preference of the other. The clear implication is that neither term can be called neutral. (Not that anyone has claimed that "Taiwan" is neutral, just common.) Kanguole 12:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I claim that for the vast majority of users of the name Taiwan is completely neutral. In using it they make no judgement whatsoever on historical political issues. To them, it's JUST the name of the country. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I actually agree with Kanguole that both names carry their share of political baggage. We've seen it even in this discussion, with some editors supporting or opposing particular names with what appears to be an underlying political motivation rather than an objective assessment of Wikipedia's policies. I do think this article title is a good example of something WP:POVTITLE is intended to help resolve, where in the event that all available titles are in some way controversial, we should go with the most commonly used name even though that name may be regarded by some editors as POV. I see this as strengthening the argument to rename the article. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Techno's point about COMMONNAME is a good one. I agree wholeheartedly with it. John Smith's (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I actually agree with Kanguole that both names carry their share of political baggage. We've seen it even in this discussion, with some editors supporting or opposing particular names with what appears to be an underlying political motivation rather than an objective assessment of Wikipedia's policies. I do think this article title is a good example of something WP:POVTITLE is intended to help resolve, where in the event that all available titles are in some way controversial, we should go with the most commonly used name even though that name may be regarded by some editors as POV. I see this as strengthening the argument to rename the article. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I claim that for the vast majority of users of the name Taiwan is completely neutral. In using it they make no judgement whatsoever on historical political issues. To them, it's JUST the name of the country. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- You have explained that "Republic of China" is the name of the country preferred by one of the major political groups in the country, and "Taiwan" the preference of the other. The clear implication is that neither term can be called neutral. (Not that anyone has claimed that "Taiwan" is neutral, just common.) Kanguole 12:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Trying to analyze the strength of a political actor's arguments does not factor into our considerations of what an article should be named or how we should be using particular proper names in article text. The policy remains NPOV, common name, and accuracy. I don't see your point. It is never Wikipedia's position to assert that either "ROC is an independent country" or that "Taiwan is an independent country" or the contrary of these two statements on the basis of our understanding of the "strength" of a particular position; it is Wikipedia's position to use the terms Republic of China and Taiwan in a manner that is sensitive of the way the involved parties use and regard these terms.--Jiang (talk) 05:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- There might be an accuracy issue here. After ROC retreated to Taiwan island, the view was still "ROC is China" for a long time. By the time independence movements came up, the view was shifted to "Taiwan is an independent country". You might want to doublecheck that "ROC is an independent country" is actually a later view created when they realize taking back the mainland was impossible. Benjwong (talk) 05:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am all for making a turn to refer to Taiwan very consistently across all articles. But not for the five-fold transformation reason you listed above OR even WPCommonnames. I know for a fact PRC citizens wants that "full claim". When you look on a map, PRC is 95-100% of geographic China. There is no reason why we should present ROC as an equal like 50-50%. And that's especially if no ROC president in the past 20 years have shown any desire to take back the mainland. So it only seems fair to have PRC be China, and forget that umbrella term. NC-TW straw poll discussed some of those changes. After moving PRC -> China, to keep up with the times it makes sense to start modifying the naming convention. Benjwong (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- The ROC presidents didn't take back the mainland. But they hadn't either declared independence from China no matter what "China" means. Does it make Taiwan no longer part of "China"? 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- About locating articles rather than educating. This can be done simply by redirects and disambiguation pages. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- It can (and should) also be done with our article naming policies, which would put the article at Taiwan. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- About locating articles rather than educating. This can be done simply by redirects and disambiguation pages. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't support moving around the Chinese articles. The Republic of China is far more than just Taiwan Province and its name on Wikipedia rightly reflects that at present. 86.45.59.218 (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- And there's another unhelpful post which ignores or fails to comment on the primary reason for our discussion here. Taiwan is the common name for the whole country the world over. There's something very odd about people who won't comment on the reason this thread exists at all. HiLo48 (talk) 18:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Holland is the common name of the Netherlands and when people say it, they mean the whole country. England is also the common name of the UK and when people say so, they mean the whole of the UK. We did it too with Russia. We did mean the rest of the USSR. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Do you have any evidence that Holland and England are "the common name" for the Netherlands and the UK? As for Russia/USSR, that's historical, so not truly important. CMD (talk) 22:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course they have no such evidence, because it's simply not true. England is not the "common name" for the UK. And on the rare occasions when it is seen, it is a manifest error. You won't find serious, reputable sources mixing the two up. By contrast, you nearly always do find the entity under discussion here referred to as "Taiwan", and details about it in country profiles etc universally filed under "Taiwan". There comes a point when people have to stop claiming that the rest of the world is "wrong" and that one or two WP editors alone know the truth and can veto us from using the terminology the rest of the world has long defined and accepted come 2012. (Holland was more common I suspect for the Netherlands, but it's much less often seen now; and, again, serious sources would avoid the error. Britain/UK is where you might be able to more reasonably argue the toss about common name). N-HH talk/edits 12:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Try look for references to Elizabeth II as "Queen of England", or to Queen Beatrix as "Queen of Holland". And it isn't uncommon to see references like "Edinburgh, England", "Glasgow, England", "Cardiff, England" or "Friesland, Holland". These are of course not as common as Taiwan, given the fact that "Taiwan" is often a euphemism of "Republic of China" as well. Governments that recognise Beijing cannot say "Republic of China" at all. "Taiwan" is more than just another common name like England or Holland but that's far beyond neutral point of view already. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 08:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Holland is the common name of the Netherlands and when people say it, they mean the whole country. England is also the common name of the UK and when people say so, they mean the whole of the UK. We did it too with Russia. We did mean the rest of the USSR. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Please make some moves (part 2)
I can consolidate a number of almost duplicate timeline articles like 2011 in Taiwan and 2011 in the Republic of China. While the above discussion can still go on. I can still go ahead and merge them to something like 2011 in the Republic of China (Taiwan). If no one objects, I will make these changes in a few days. After that we can keep 1 timeline artcle for the region instead of 2. Benjwong (talk) 04:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- This seems reasonable. I'm not sure why there are two separate timeline articles to begin with. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:05, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- As "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is not consistent with the "Republic of China" name of this article, I don't really like the suggestion. That said, having two separate paralell articles is silly so I think its better than that. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- What had you done? Could you list them out briefly? 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Merge them to 2011 in the Free area of the Republic of China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.35.85.132 (talk) 10:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- For the Republic of China in 2011/2012, we consider it to exist only within its Free Area. We have a separate article on the "Free Area" because we need to explain that specific term. The Free Area isn't, in terms of geographical territory, a subset of the ROC as a whole. They are coterminous. 61.18.170.137 (talk) 17:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- To summarize then, the articles prior to 1949 will be 1948 in the Republic of China, 1949 in the Republic of China etc. The articles after that, we begin with 1950 in the Free area of the Republic of China all the way up to 2012 in the Free area of the Republic of China. Is everyone ok with this? Keep in mind these are timeline lists, not exactly country articles. Benjwong (talk) 07:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think 1950 in the Republic of China (Taiwan) would be less confusing to readers. Kanguole 08:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely not "Free area of ..", especially for 2012 and more recent years, surely. And, if this article ends up as "Taiwan" - as it should - I don't see how those more recent timeline articles at least could or should be at anything other than simply "20xx in Taiwan". The 50s-70s are admittedly more difficult, and there is an argument that we should be consistent across the years; and, if not, a debate about when we'd switch. Alternatively/anyway, "xxx in Republic of China (Taiwan)" or " .. Taiwan (Republic of China)" would make sense, for now at least I guess, so that any duplication can be dealt with. N-HH talk/edits 09:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Shall we go on to merge 1990 in Russia and 1990 in Soviet Union, and all those articles before 1990? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Russia didn't make up basically all of the USSR. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Neither did Taiwan make up all of the ROC, no matter in 1946, 1950 or 2012. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It makes up so much of it that there is not nearly enough topic matter to justify two separate articles. CMD (talk) 18:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps.., perhaps not. Anyhow we may actually follow the UK example. For 1800 and the years prior, it's #### in Great Britain. From 1801 onwards, it's #### in the United Kingdom. In the case of the ROC and Taiwan, Taiwan was a province that covered the entire chain of islands (which included Taipei, Kaohsiung, the Pescadores, etc., and excluded Kinmen, Pratas, etc.) between 1945 and 1949, and before 1895, and a Japanese colony between 1895 and 1945, and therefore a clearly defined entity with clearly defined borders. From 1949 onwards, it has been the "massive amount"[4] of the ROC, as much as Great Britain has been to the UK from 1801 onwards. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It makes up so much of it that there is not nearly enough topic matter to justify two separate articles. CMD (talk) 18:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Neither did Taiwan make up all of the ROC, no matter in 1946, 1950 or 2012. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Russia didn't make up basically all of the USSR. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Shall we go on to merge 1990 in Russia and 1990 in Soviet Union, and all those articles before 1990? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely not "Free area of ..", especially for 2012 and more recent years, surely. And, if this article ends up as "Taiwan" - as it should - I don't see how those more recent timeline articles at least could or should be at anything other than simply "20xx in Taiwan". The 50s-70s are admittedly more difficult, and there is an argument that we should be consistent across the years; and, if not, a debate about when we'd switch. Alternatively/anyway, "xxx in Republic of China (Taiwan)" or " .. Taiwan (Republic of China)" would make sense, for now at least I guess, so that any duplication can be dealt with. N-HH talk/edits 09:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think 1950 in the Republic of China (Taiwan) would be less confusing to readers. Kanguole 08:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's nothing surprising if one is familiar with the issues around Taiwan and the ROC. For example, a proposed flag for the independent state doesn't have the islands of Kinmen, Wuchiu, Matsu, Pratas and Itu Aba on it, although it got Green Island, the Pescadores and Orchid Island. Inhabitants from Kinmen, Wuchiu and Matsu are required not to field in Taiwan (but China mainland instead) on the application forms when they apply for US visas at the AIT with their ROC passports. It's rather unambiguous that these remote islands aren't part of Taiwan (i.e. Taiwan and the ROC aren't coterminous), and almost all of the arguments for Taiwanese independence don't apply there. The WikiProject defines its scope rather clearly as "Articles relating to the following topics: History of Taiwan, Culture of Taiwan, Taiwanese people, Military of the Republic of China, Geography of Taiwan, Sport in Taiwan, Science, Politics of Taiwan, Religion in Taiwan". 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Agreement
I agree the motion to move this article to Taiwan. Republic of China is the official government name of Taiwan. Aamuizz (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the move. Other editors don't either. There is no consensus for change. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 17:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Consensus does not equal unanimity. It is about broad agreement, based on policy. One or two editors trying to veto by saying they do not like something or other that has been proposed doesn't count for much I'm afraid. N-HH talk/edits 19:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's clear at the moment that there are a number of vocal editors on either side of this issue - this is not consensus. It may eventually come down to polling as did the naming of Republic of Ireland (not a brilliant solution). It would be nice if consensus could be achieved, but I worry that we'll simply fall into a war of attrition, with the "winners" being those who don't lose interest/patience first. To be honest, there's a handful of arguments for each position that have to be weighed against each other, and most of the discussion is a series of rehashings of those arguments. I'm not that optimistic, but I think we could help ourselves a lot by adding some structure to the debate environment. LukeSurl t c 00:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Consensus does not equal unanimity. It is about broad agreement, based on policy. One or two editors trying to veto by saying they do not like something or other that has been proposed doesn't count for much I'm afraid. N-HH talk/edits 19:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- The problem around Taiwan and China are a lot more difficult than Ireland. Ireland is English-speaking and most of the people who vote know sufficiently about the then and now about the island. This isn't the case for Taiwan and China. 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- From when on did "Taiwan" become a common name for the whole of the ROC? 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- As with anything that changes in a natural fashion over time, precise dates can't be pinpointed. Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that right now (and right now is what matters for this article title) the common name for this country in English-speaking sources is Taiwan. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- In that case shall we go on to say in this article that "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a republic in East Asia established in 1912 with Dr Sun Yat Sen as its founding provisional president." and "Taiwan was a founding member of the UN and a permanent member of the UN Security Council until 1971, when its UN membership was replaced by the People's Republic of China."? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- No, which has been made clear throughout this conversation. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's bring us back to the same question. From when on did Taiwan become a common name for the ROC? From when on did the ROC become Taiwanese and no longer Chinese?
- Don't know. It's not important at all for the naming of this page. Prose, which has the room to explain, will handle it fine. CMD (talk) 18:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Some editors here are proposing to rewrite these few articles and to remove the pre-1945 part of the ROC from this article. If you can't name a date it's basically impossible to do the rewrite and removal. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Don't know. It's not important at all for the naming of this page. Prose, which has the room to explain, will handle it fine. CMD (talk) 18:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's bring us back to the same question. From when on did Taiwan become a common name for the ROC? From when on did the ROC become Taiwanese and no longer Chinese?
- No, which has been made clear throughout this conversation. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- In that case shall we go on to say in this article that "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a republic in East Asia established in 1912 with Dr Sun Yat Sen as its founding provisional president." and "Taiwan was a founding member of the UN and a permanent member of the UN Security Council until 1971, when its UN membership was replaced by the People's Republic of China."? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Again, it is pretty obvious there is no consensus for this sort of change....it all smacks of politics to me any way. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 11:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- IMHO, There is no need for the move. This article is about the Government in Exile, or Rump State (depending on your opinion), of the Republic of China. There is already a separate article about the island of Taiwan.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:34, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- But the point is that we should really, per the rest of the world, be referring to that rump state as "Taiwan". That's the problem - the article about the island has "taken" the name Taiwan, even though Taiwan refers usually to the state as a whole and not simply the island (see Madagascar); and the article that is primarily looking at the modern state (with backstory), ie this one, is currently living under name "Republic of China", which no one really uses for that state in 2012. History of the Republic of China, Government of the Republic of China and associated historical articles can cover and explain the politics and history of all this. WP:COMMONNAME is the key when it comes to the simple question of what we call this article and how we refer to this entity in contemporary accounts. N-HH talk/edits 11:31, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- Do Madagascar, Iceland, Sri Lanka and the like have the same path of history that their main islands at present weren't part of them years ago? Does any of them have any island that is not associated to its main island? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- For the record, consider these: Category:Islands of Madagascar, Category:Islands of Iceland, Category:Islands of Sri Lanka. Their main islands all have the same name as their country; just like the main island of the modern country Taiwan.
- As CMD says, there is nothing stopping us from including some information about the beginning of the Republic of China, as it was in the early 1900's, since this information is clearly related to the modern entity (which one might call a "country", for short) of Taiwan. WP:CONCEPTDAB suggests to me that, in a case like this, an article titled "Taiwan" should be about the broad concept; there is no need to be overly precise in the article's scope. Mlm42 (talk) 01:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that the article for this country (or rump state) should focus more on the landmasses that are now administered from Taipei. But it doesn't change the fact this country hasn't yet been superseded by Taiwan or a Taiwanese state. At some point it's closed to, but it hasn't yet reached that stage. For instance, it hasn't got its constitution replaced or substantially redrafted, its flag and its coat of arms replaced, nor has it got any diplomatic recognition as Taiwan. I based my position on these facts. I remain firmly open to change the title of this Wikipedia article when that stage is eventually reached. (And, for the record, I actually want that to happen.)
- On comparison with other island countries - The ROC isn't comparable because the islands on the coast of Fujian and in the South China Sea aren't part of Taiwan. Iceland, Sri Lanka, Madagascar, etc., got no similar situation. It's a little bit like Monmouthshire before the 1970s, that it was treated as one with Wales, rather than part of Wales until the Welsh Language Act of 1967 or the Local Government Act of 1972. Monmouthshire was once unambiguously defined to be part of England but a large number of legislations apply to Wales and Monmouthshire, and as a result commonly though not legally considered part of Wales. I'd love to see these islands being re-defined by the ROC as part of Taiwan, but, again, as long as that hasn't been done, they remain not part of Taiwan in reality. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Do Madagascar, Iceland, Sri Lanka and the like have the same path of history that their main islands at present weren't part of them years ago? Does any of them have any island that is not associated to its main island? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- But the point is that we should really, per the rest of the world, be referring to that rump state as "Taiwan". That's the problem - the article about the island has "taken" the name Taiwan, even though Taiwan refers usually to the state as a whole and not simply the island (see Madagascar); and the article that is primarily looking at the modern state (with backstory), ie this one, is currently living under name "Republic of China", which no one really uses for that state in 2012. History of the Republic of China, Government of the Republic of China and associated historical articles can cover and explain the politics and history of all this. WP:COMMONNAME is the key when it comes to the simple question of what we call this article and how we refer to this entity in contemporary accounts. N-HH talk/edits 11:31, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- IMHO, There is no need for the move. This article is about the Government in Exile, or Rump State (depending on your opinion), of the Republic of China. There is already a separate article about the island of Taiwan.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:34, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- As with anything that changes in a natural fashion over time, precise dates can't be pinpointed. Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that right now (and right now is what matters for this article title) the common name for this country in English-speaking sources is Taiwan. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- The article about the government (in exile) is Government of the Republic of China. This article is about the (rump) state, which is known as Taiwan. CMD (talk) 13:11, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Should the naming discussion have a separate talk page?
Looking back though the archive of this talk page, it looks like the discussion of the article's name dominates over all other topics. I suggest we host these debates on a sub-page, such that other discussions regarding improvements to this article aren't drowned out. Perhaps Talk:Republic of China/Article name discussion? LukeSurl t c 23:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- If someone can check with Jpech95, I'd like to know when he plans to bring his rewritten articles up for discussion. I've given the sandbox changes a very cursory glance and superficially agree with them at this point, but I think they should be brought out for formal inspection and discussion. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 03:13, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- There really isn't 'other discussion regarding improvements to this article'. Moving this to a subpage will make it harder for fresh users to see and participate, and impossible to achieve true consensus. Anyway, we just have to wait a short while longer before the orgiastic climax of this discussion: Jpech95's move request! Prepare your statements. Shrigley (talk) 03:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- A separate sub-page would hide the discussion, something that would suit those not wanting change. HiLo48 (talk) 10:09, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Shrigley, the lack of any other discussion is kinda my point! I'm sure there are other things that need to be discussed other than the article's name, but any user coming to this talk page is probably going to see multiple threads discussing the article name and think better of it. HiLo48, I'd imagine you'd have a box at the top of the talk page "For discussion regarding spelling please use ..." and you'd link the box from the article to the subpage. This has been done on pages such as Talk:Aluminium/Spelling. I would hope it wouldn't hide the discussion, but help to make it more organised (at the moment it's a mess with several threads). LukeSurl t c 17:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Also, any decision made here would impact other pages (articles of the form XXX in/of the Republic of China and also the current Taiwan page which would be moved to Taiwan (island)). It could be useful to have a central discussion which is separate from a single article's main talk page. LukeSurl t c 17:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Answer, in my opinion: No. The discussion of the nane of this article should always take place on this article discussion page. That is the standard Wikipedia practice, transparent way. Moving it is not conventional, does not follow Wikipedia policies and leaves open the possibility that fanatics (the only ones who may be interested enough to get involved on a specific "name" page) would hijack the process. This might happen while other editors were busy here on this page. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 17:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- A separate sub-page would hide the discussion, something that would suit those not wanting change. HiLo48 (talk) 10:09, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Was there any similar discussion around, for example, football, trainers and aeroplane? 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- All I remember is that Talk:Honour is full of bickerings over UK/US spelling. Not sure about the others though. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 09:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Again, there is no consensus for a change like this one proposed....Pity editors would not get on with improving the articles rather than rehashing this "name" debate for the umpteenth time. There is no consensus for any change in the article names. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 11:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Getting the name right, per what the rest of the world does, would be the most obvious and the biggest single improvement this article could see. Sadly, as ever here, one or two politically motivated hold-outs repeatedly block any progress on the most simple - but most important - things. We wouldn't have to "rehash" the name issue for the umpteenth time if it was actually sorted out once and for all. N-HH talk/edits 12:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, 86.*, consensus is slowly building for this change. The PRC->China move that triggered the latest rounds of discussion remains in effect. The WP:NC-TW guideline that conflicted with common use and Wikipedia policies has been demoted as it no longer represents consensus. There haven't been any proposals here yet to really gather consensus on, but one user has been working on sandbox versions of the articles that will be changed, which several of us intend to support when he brings it out for formal discussion. Despite efforts by certain Hong Kong-based IP editors to filibuster with irrational, irrelevant or circular arguments until editors give up on participating, the gears have been in motion this entire time to move towards the inevitable outcome of this page being moved. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'll be interested to see the new draft articles. Personally I think that the article as it stands is better entitled 'Republic of China', but I can imagine that some rearrangement, rewriting, of the content of this and a few other articles would tip my opinion in favour of the proposed move. If/when we do move this article, as well as moving most of/all articles with Republic of China in the title, we may need to do a lot of work across Wikipedia updating links etc.. This would require a number of decisions; we'd need a decision at which point in history to start referring to the state as 'Taiwan' for instance. As I think we're not just debating a single-article name change, but really a Wikipedia-wide policy, I would again suggest we try and form consensus on a page separate from a single article's talk page. We can then direct editors there from all articles that would be impacted by any decision, not just those involved in this page. LukeSurl t c 23:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Case in point, on Talk:Taiwan (disambiguation) right now there's a proposal being voted on to move Taiwan to Taiwan (island) and Taiwan (disambiguation) to Taiwan. Should that and the idea being discussed here pass we're going to have a right mess. We seriously need to have a central place to form consensus on the naming of all these Taiwan-related articles. (Please note this is a procedural suggestion, and I am suggesting it for reasons of efficiency rather than trying to tip the balance either way) LukeSurl t c 23:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's the gist of what most of us are suggesting, I think. It's not that we just want a rename of this article and nothing else, we understand that rewriting will be necessary to make sure the articles and their titles are still in sync. On the Taiwan disambig proposal, I am uncomfortable that it got in before Jpech95 was able to put his proposal forward, and it does have the potential to cause some minor mess, but I think it's still fixable. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything about Jpech95's work recently and I hope it's still continuing. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- The move request on disambig won't affect this page move. Basically, the move will occur if the island is not the primary topic. It should be moved if it's not primary, irrelevant as to whether another page is primary. If in future another page is determined to be the primary topic, it can be moved to Taiwan. CMD (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 07:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- The move request on disambig won't affect this page move. Basically, the move will occur if the island is not the primary topic. It should be moved if it's not primary, irrelevant as to whether another page is primary. If in future another page is determined to be the primary topic, it can be moved to Taiwan. CMD (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we need to rewrite the articles or to rename them. Things can be settled with redirects and disambiguation pages. The articles are titled PRC, ROC and "Island of Taiwan" in many other languages on Wikipedia. Why should we introduce an exception on English Wikipedia? 147.8.102.148 (talk) 07:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Before anyone bothers answering that, maybe you can tell us why you are so rudely ignoring the already multiply made point about Taiwan being the common name among 99% of the English speaking world. (The quality of debate from some here is appalling. It is NOT good faith to ignore the primary point made by those with whom you disagree.) HiLo48 (talk) 07:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I did not follow much of the debates but I myself would suppose that titles tend to be accurate and descriptive, and common names can be catered by redirects and in many cases disambiguation pages. US Army is the common name but we got the article at United States Army. CT and CAT scan are the common names but we got the article at X-ray computed tomography. I agree the common name is Taiwan, but the subject matter here is clearly the Republic founded in 1912 and of course a bit of the history of its founding. The subject matter isn't Taiwan the islands. Titling this article as "Taiwan" doesn't sound right to me given the scope of the subject matter. And I found little reason to cut a continued and continuing polity into two or more articles. There isn't any established point in its history that we can neatly and clearly separate it in a similar manner like the Fourth and the Fifth Republics of France. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 08:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Before anyone bothers answering that, maybe you can tell us why you are so rudely ignoring the already multiply made point about Taiwan being the common name among 99% of the English speaking world. (The quality of debate from some here is appalling. It is NOT good faith to ignore the primary point made by those with whom you disagree.) HiLo48 (talk) 07:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's the gist of what most of us are suggesting, I think. It's not that we just want a rename of this article and nothing else, we understand that rewriting will be necessary to make sure the articles and their titles are still in sync. On the Taiwan disambig proposal, I am uncomfortable that it got in before Jpech95 was able to put his proposal forward, and it does have the potential to cause some minor mess, but I think it's still fixable. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything about Jpech95's work recently and I hope it's still continuing. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Again, there is no consensus for a change like this one proposed....Pity editors would not get on with improving the articles rather than rehashing this "name" debate for the umpteenth time. There is no consensus for any change in the article names. 86.41.2.94 (talk) 11:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- All I remember is that Talk:Honour is full of bickerings over UK/US spelling. Not sure about the others though. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 09:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Was there any similar discussion around, for example, football, trainers and aeroplane? 203.145.92.208 (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't the Republic of China a continuous and continuing entity? There's no such clear-cut point in history. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 08:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Obfuscating, as usual for people taking your position. Since you brought up the country, try renaming United States from its common name to its formal name. I wish you luck. Only people still fighting 60 year old wars are doing everything they can to stop the globally common name of Taiwan being used. It doesn't help your political cause. It just makes you look silly. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Try your luck moving sodium hydroxide to caustic acid, ethanol to alcohol, and Republic of the Congo to Congo. (Yes. It takes its seat in the UN simply as "Congo".) You can perhaps go call the Brits fighting a 90-year-old war too for their obstructions to the move from Republic of Ireland to Ireland. 147.8.102.79 (talk) 12:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Obfuscating, as usual for people taking your position. Since you brought up the country, try renaming United States from its common name to its formal name. I wish you luck. Only people still fighting 60 year old wars are doing everything they can to stop the globally common name of Taiwan being used. It doesn't help your political cause. It just makes you look silly. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that usage in English sources implies that main article about this country (post-1949) should be titled "Taiwan". But much of the content of the current article does not belong at that location (most of the pre-1949 history, Claimed territories), and some of it is already present at "Taiwan" (Economy, Demographics). In fact the current Taiwan article already has about half of what a reader would expect from a country article. And I think we'll still need an article at "Republic of China" to describe the continuity between the pre- and post-1949 republics. (This is a valid, though not universally held, viewpoint, but the proponents of change seem as unable to comprehend it as their opponents are the common name issue.) So I'm in favour of declaring the "Taiwan" article the one about the modern country, moving large chunks of this article there, and limiting the role of this article to something like French Fifth Republic. Kanguole 00:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- By doing so we will have to establish that the events in 1949 and the few years that follow, perhaps until the mid-1960s, in broader China is comparable to the collapse of the Fourth Republic and the founding of the Fifth Republic. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 07:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- A much less smaller operation is to redirect Taiwan to Republic of China, and to illustrate in the ROC article that it has been commonly known as Taiwan in the past few decades. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 08:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- But a much more accurate and consistent operation would be to have this main article as "Taiwan" - and have main references in text elsewhere on WP to the modern place talk about "Taiwan" - and explain the history and naming/sovereignty disputes in the body (as well as maintaining sub-articles such as History of the Republic of China and Government of the Republic of China, 1992 consensus etc). That's what the rest of the world does in dealing with Taiwan-China in 2012. That way the terminology matches with common use and what most people will expect and be looking for - while also perhaps educating those less familiar with the history about the background and controversy as they read into the article proper. It might entail some minor content shuffling, but every other encyclopedia and formal country profile set-up does it that way and copes with it. Why can't we? N-HH talk/edits 11:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Most Wikipedias in languages other than English are having articles named PRC, ROC and Taiwan (or "Island of Taiwan" or "Taiwan (island)"). Why should we be different? I don't believe that other languages are so different from English that Taiwan isn't the common name in those languages for the ROC in the past few decades. 147.8.102.79 (talk) 12:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is the English-language WP, which should reflect English-language usage. Even if your guesses/assertions are correct about what the common name is in other languages (and, indeed, about what "most" other WPs do), that has nothing to do with anything. And of course, while we're indulging (in) guesses, I'd imagine it's pretty likely that they are only that way because a lot of them copied the weird set-up that used to be here, which we are finally getting close to untangling and resolving in the direction of common sense and standard - and perfectly "correct" - modern usage. And, finally, the "whatabouttery" from HK IPs is getting very dull. It repeats the same - utterly irrelevant - points over and over again (see entries from this same and similar IPs above, eg "What about England/Britain?" What about "ethanol/alcohol"? etc ad nauseam. Maybe those are equally egregious breaches of common name policy; or maybe there are genuine ambiguity issues; or maybe - as in England - there's nothing to discuss. Either way feel free to go and debate those examples on their respective pages if you wish to). If this is going to go on, perhaps we should have a separate page for this issue, as this thread originally suggested. N-HH talk/edits 12:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Further to N-HH's comment, it should be pointed out that what other language Wikipedias do is irrelevant. Each Wikipedia is independent, they have their own community with their own rules. Some allow copyrighted images and some don't, for instance. Secondly, what the other language Wikipedias do is most commonly taken from the lead that the English Wikipedia took - in other words, the other Wikipedias have articles on PRC/ROC/etc. because that's the way the English Wikipedia used to be. We have changed that now in line with our policies and it's up to the other Wikipedia projects if they want to also change. We have never, nor will we ever, name our articles based on the 'peer pressure' of what other Wikipedia projects are doing. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is the English-language WP, which should reflect English-language usage. Even if your guesses/assertions are correct about what the common name is in other languages (and, indeed, about what "most" other WPs do), that has nothing to do with anything. And of course, while we're indulging (in) guesses, I'd imagine it's pretty likely that they are only that way because a lot of them copied the weird set-up that used to be here, which we are finally getting close to untangling and resolving in the direction of common sense and standard - and perfectly "correct" - modern usage. And, finally, the "whatabouttery" from HK IPs is getting very dull. It repeats the same - utterly irrelevant - points over and over again (see entries from this same and similar IPs above, eg "What about England/Britain?" What about "ethanol/alcohol"? etc ad nauseam. Maybe those are equally egregious breaches of common name policy; or maybe there are genuine ambiguity issues; or maybe - as in England - there's nothing to discuss. Either way feel free to go and debate those examples on their respective pages if you wish to). If this is going to go on, perhaps we should have a separate page for this issue, as this thread originally suggested. N-HH talk/edits 12:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Most Wikipedias in languages other than English are having articles named PRC, ROC and Taiwan (or "Island of Taiwan" or "Taiwan (island)"). Why should we be different? I don't believe that other languages are so different from English that Taiwan isn't the common name in those languages for the ROC in the past few decades. 147.8.102.79 (talk) 12:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- But a much more accurate and consistent operation would be to have this main article as "Taiwan" - and have main references in text elsewhere on WP to the modern place talk about "Taiwan" - and explain the history and naming/sovereignty disputes in the body (as well as maintaining sub-articles such as History of the Republic of China and Government of the Republic of China, 1992 consensus etc). That's what the rest of the world does in dealing with Taiwan-China in 2012. That way the terminology matches with common use and what most people will expect and be looking for - while also perhaps educating those less familiar with the history about the background and controversy as they read into the article proper. It might entail some minor content shuffling, but every other encyclopedia and formal country profile set-up does it that way and copes with it. Why can't we? N-HH talk/edits 11:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- A much less smaller operation is to redirect Taiwan to Republic of China, and to illustrate in the ROC article that it has been commonly known as Taiwan in the past few decades. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 08:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- (outdent)Each Wikipedia is independent, and the decisions of another Wikipedia aren't binding on this one. But then no man is an island, and it's natural to look at how others deal with the same thing. Further, it's plain hypocritical to pinpoint only the ROC and turn a blind eye with other similar cases. If you are a genuine commonnamist, do so in a uniform and consistent manner. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I do apply WP:COMMONNAME uniformly. However, as I'm sure you understand, I'm one editor and don't have the sheer volume of time needed to pursue common name arguments across every article on Wikipedia. I do, however, pursue it in each situation I find myself involved in. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- By doing so we will have to establish that the events in 1949 and the few years that follow, perhaps until the mid-1960s, in broader China is comparable to the collapse of the Fourth Republic and the founding of the Fifth Republic. 147.8.102.148 (talk) 07:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that usage in English sources implies that main article about this country (post-1949) should be titled "Taiwan". But much of the content of the current article does not belong at that location (most of the pre-1949 history, Claimed territories), and some of it is already present at "Taiwan" (Economy, Demographics). In fact the current Taiwan article already has about half of what a reader would expect from a country article. And I think we'll still need an article at "Republic of China" to describe the continuity between the pre- and post-1949 republics. (This is a valid, though not universally held, viewpoint, but the proponents of change seem as unable to comprehend it as their opponents are the common name issue.) So I'm in favour of declaring the "Taiwan" article the one about the modern country, moving large chunks of this article there, and limiting the role of this article to something like French Fifth Republic. Kanguole 00:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, I think it is obvious that there is no consensus in favour of any change. Honestly speaking, I don't think there ever will be. The idea of labelling the "Republic of China" as simply "Taiwan" is very political. It is unavoidable. It is abundently clear that the "Republic of China" is far more than a mere province, "Taiwan"....No change to the current set up is desirable. It's a pity this politics can't be put aside and focus be put back on the articles...86.46.20.20 (talk) 15:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- You've said this four times already on this page. We heard you. Your opinion is noted. Repeating it over and over isn't going to change anything. No concrete proposal has been made here, hence why there's no consensus yet for one. But note that 'no consensus' doesn't just mean 'no consensus to change', it also means 'no consensus to remain'. Wikipedia's default action is to retain the status quo and continue consensus-building. Your repeated comments that you feel there's no consensus come across strongly as an attempt to stifle the consensus-building process in favour of your desired (status quo) outcome. Please don't do that. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- To 86.46.20.20 (I do wish you had a better name I could address you with to avoid confusion)... The campaign to use the name Taiwan is NOT political! In fact it's quite the opposite. There is no politics at all involved in a desire to use the common name. All the politics on display is from those still fighting 60 year old wars, and the more you do it the sillier you look. You political and military goals will NEVER be achieved by being recalcitrant over the name on Wikipedia. Please join those who REALLY want to put the politics aside. HiLo48 (talk) 07:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Precisely. The idea that those simply asking for use of the common name are somehow being political or dragging politics into this unnecessarily is preposterous, and in fact has everything entirely on its head. Preferring the barely used, archaic "official" designation - which also asserts sovereignty over the whole of China - is rather obviously way more political and contentious. Since when did an "official" government designation (which of course is as often avoided even by official Taiwanese sources as it is used by them) become neutral? Also, if we're talking about clarity and the claim that simply calling this place "Taiwan" would confuse as to the island-country distinction and the extent of the territory actually ruled (let alone claimed), then what we have now hardly helps: an article at an obscure and generally avoided name, with a hatnote directing the reader to the article currently called Taiwan - which is, for now, specifically about the island itself and not any outlying regions/smaller islands - for details of "its territories". The worst of all worlds, it would seem. Obscure terminology, lack of clarity and misleading information. N-HH talk/edits 11:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- (Re N-HH's post at 11:30, 1 February 2012) I happened to have come across rulings of Australian and US courts that use "Republic of China" to refer to the country. [5] [6] [7] "Republic of China (Taiwan)" also appears in an Irish statutory instrument. [8] [9] It's nothing about politics, the 60-year-old war, or the territorial claims. It's about accuracy and neutrality. It's also about easiness to further illustrate lesser known concepts such as the dispute around Taiwanese independence. If we call this country outright as Taiwan, and consider Taiwan to be an independent country, it will be difficult, for example, for us to explain to general readers why some people want Taiwan declare its independence. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Interestingly, I've noticed the ones here fighting the hardest for ROC = Taiwan are the Aussies and the Brits. How can their view on the majority of English speakers truly be the majority when Aussies+Brits < Americans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk)
- You seem confused. We are not offering our "opinions" nor are we spokespeople for our supposed nations. You or others may be, I don't know. We have simply looked at the evidence as to common name from sources around the world, including of course from Taiwan itself. ROC is occasionally used, but it is not the common, mainstream terminology in 2012. It simply isn't. It doesn't matter why that might be, or that there is a history as ROC or wider claimed territories as ROC (we have articles on these points). This article purports to be about the modern country/state/renegade province/whatever, with a historical trail in the body, not about some abstract theoretical non-PRC "Republic of China". It should be named - and contemporary references to the entity elsewhere on WP should follow that - what the rest of the world calls this thing, ie "Taiwan". End of. N-HH talk/edits 10:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- "abstract theoretical non-PRC "Republic of China"" - but the ROC isn't theoretical. The ROC doesn't "theoretically" exist. As for what people call it, whilst normal people call it the "common spider crab", scientists (more specifically, biologists) call it the Libinia emarginata. Similarly, from a few links given above, those within the fields of law call it the Republic of China, even within places like Australia, whilst only laymen call it "Taiwan". Wikipedia can afford to be more technical than other texts because Wikipedia is not print media. Otherwise, we may as well rename e2fsprogs as "Ext2 file system utilities" and IBMDOS.COM as "DOS kernel executable", which are less technical and more "human" ways of naming them. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 10:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Please drop the obscure, irrelevant, off-topic "analogies". I simply KNOW that Taiwan is the common name. I'm sure you do too. It's been proven many times. Wanting to use it here has NOTHING to do with politics. You are conceding nothing. That is not collaboration. HiLo48 (talk) 11:09, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's a cause for despair the number of times people seize, in this debate and others, on one-off examples from the real world or other WP pages as if that proves anything at all. The couple of tribunal judgments cited above prove nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about what general usage is, in the legal world let alone elsewhere. Either way, WP is a general use encyclopedia, not a legal or technical handbook (we'd all be in serious trouble if it was the latter). We have to look at the overall, predominant contemporary usage; which is "Taiwan". And whether other individual WP pages, on spiders or anything else, are "correctly" or not named per policy and real-world usage is, as noted above and previously ad nauseam, wholly irrelevant too. We have to look at the broad policy and practice - which, for countries, is to use the common, short-form name, ie in this case "Taiwan". That holds on WP and indeed in every respected general use English-language encyclopedia-style source, from BBC and CIA country profiles to Whitakers to Britannica. For this entity, the common name is undoubtedly Taiwan. Full stop. And, finally, the notion of the ROC as a wider government of the whole of greater China is indeed theoretical and abstract as a concept and has no weight as a basis for naming this article, or for references to this entity elsewhere on WP. I have a friend who once thought he was Napoleon. He does not get equal billing here. (OK, not really and that exaggerates the point, but still ...) N-HH talk/edits 11:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME is somewhat of an oxymoron, because its upholding is based on double-standards. It's only cited when a certain agenda is being introduced, and ignored when nobody really gives a damn. During major heated debates that everyone is gritting their teeth about, be it the Sea of Japan, Aluminium or British Isles, its linked to at least ten times, but in ghost town articles its as if COMMONNAME is trivial and optional. Sure, Wikipedia and its collaboration model was never perfect to begin with, but it's quite pressing when things like this happen from time to time. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 11:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- That may be because the subjects of ghost town articles are far less likely to have a clear common name. If this is not the case, the ghost town articles should be changed. If you want commonname to be not a part of this debate, you'll have to try and get consensus for its change or removal at its talkpage. CMD (talk) 11:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have no agenda above and beyond making this page and WP terminology about this place tally with what I - and everyone else, as it happens - gets to see in 99% of what they see and read elsewhere. As noted, the suggestion that that argument is about politics is preposterous, especially when it comes from those who are being explicitly political in their assertions about "legitimate" governments and 60 year-old wars, as many have been. And again, any other debates about the application of the eminently sensible common name policy have nothing to do with anything here. If it is not being applied, or mis-applied, elsewhere that's an issue for those pages; sometimes it doesn't always offer a clear answer. However, the conclusion to draw from it here is inescapable. N-HH talk/edits 12:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't convincing to pinpoint only on the ROC, but not other countries such as the "Republic of Ireland" and the "Republic of the Congo". The other examples might perhaps appear to be irrelevant, but Ireland and the Congo are countries too. I hadn't actually read about "Republic of Ireland" apart from Wikipedia and some British and Irish legislations. And the Republic of the Congo takes its seat in the UN simply as Congo. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Irish legislation dosen't use Republic of Ireland, and we don't base our titles on UN names. We've been over these cases before. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- What about the Republic of Ireland Act 1948? It's an act of the Oireachtas. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It uses it as a descriptor, not a term, as the many Irish editors of wikipedia will fall over themselves to tell you. The official name of the Irish state in English is "Ireland". CMD (talk) 18:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's why I said I hadn't read about this phrase apart from Wikipedia and some British and Irish legislations. It isn't a common name yet it's chosen to be the title of the Wikipedia article on that country. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's done so to disambiguate it from the island, which editors have determined is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name "Ireland". CMD (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is an argument against merging ROC with Taiwan (Island). The latter is a place, the former is a government. One could even argue that PRC and China should not be merged together; China is the geographical area that many governments (of many different ethnicities) have ruled over and they were all called different things (including Republic of China). The PRC is the current government that rules over the area that the rest of the world has called China since the Qing Dynasty and even before if the word "China" does come from the Khitan (Medievel times). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 21:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Primarytopic is unrelated to merging, it deals on the premise that there are already two separate articles. As for government articles, the relevant ones are Government of the Republic of China and Government of the People's Republic of China. The main articles are about the state, an idea that in English includes the territory and the people on it. CMD (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- This article is about the history, the politics, the political status, foreign relations, demographics, and so on and so forth of this country, which covers the Chinese mainland between 1912 and 1949, Taiwan including the Pescadores from 1945 onwards, and Quemoy, Wuchiu and Matsu from 1912 onwards, as well as that of the predecessors of this country. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Primarytopic is unrelated to merging, it deals on the premise that there are already two separate articles. As for government articles, the relevant ones are Government of the Republic of China and Government of the People's Republic of China. The main articles are about the state, an idea that in English includes the territory and the people on it. CMD (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is an argument against merging ROC with Taiwan (Island). The latter is a place, the former is a government. One could even argue that PRC and China should not be merged together; China is the geographical area that many governments (of many different ethnicities) have ruled over and they were all called different things (including Republic of China). The PRC is the current government that rules over the area that the rest of the world has called China since the Qing Dynasty and even before if the word "China" does come from the Khitan (Medievel times). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 21:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's done so to disambiguate it from the island, which editors have determined is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name "Ireland". CMD (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's why I said I hadn't read about this phrase apart from Wikipedia and some British and Irish legislations. It isn't a common name yet it's chosen to be the title of the Wikipedia article on that country. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It uses it as a descriptor, not a term, as the many Irish editors of wikipedia will fall over themselves to tell you. The official name of the Irish state in English is "Ireland". CMD (talk) 18:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- What about the Republic of Ireland Act 1948? It's an act of the Oireachtas. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Irish legislation dosen't use Republic of Ireland, and we don't base our titles on UN names. We've been over these cases before. CMD (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't convincing to pinpoint only on the ROC, but not other countries such as the "Republic of Ireland" and the "Republic of the Congo". The other examples might perhaps appear to be irrelevant, but Ireland and the Congo are countries too. I hadn't actually read about "Republic of Ireland" apart from Wikipedia and some British and Irish legislations. And the Republic of the Congo takes its seat in the UN simply as Congo. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have no agenda above and beyond making this page and WP terminology about this place tally with what I - and everyone else, as it happens - gets to see in 99% of what they see and read elsewhere. As noted, the suggestion that that argument is about politics is preposterous, especially when it comes from those who are being explicitly political in their assertions about "legitimate" governments and 60 year-old wars, as many have been. And again, any other debates about the application of the eminently sensible common name policy have nothing to do with anything here. If it is not being applied, or mis-applied, elsewhere that's an issue for those pages; sometimes it doesn't always offer a clear answer. However, the conclusion to draw from it here is inescapable. N-HH talk/edits 12:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- That may be because the subjects of ghost town articles are far less likely to have a clear common name. If this is not the case, the ghost town articles should be changed. If you want commonname to be not a part of this debate, you'll have to try and get consensus for its change or removal at its talkpage. CMD (talk) 11:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME is somewhat of an oxymoron, because its upholding is based on double-standards. It's only cited when a certain agenda is being introduced, and ignored when nobody really gives a damn. During major heated debates that everyone is gritting their teeth about, be it the Sea of Japan, Aluminium or British Isles, its linked to at least ten times, but in ghost town articles its as if COMMONNAME is trivial and optional. Sure, Wikipedia and its collaboration model was never perfect to begin with, but it's quite pressing when things like this happen from time to time. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 11:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's a cause for despair the number of times people seize, in this debate and others, on one-off examples from the real world or other WP pages as if that proves anything at all. The couple of tribunal judgments cited above prove nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about what general usage is, in the legal world let alone elsewhere. Either way, WP is a general use encyclopedia, not a legal or technical handbook (we'd all be in serious trouble if it was the latter). We have to look at the overall, predominant contemporary usage; which is "Taiwan". And whether other individual WP pages, on spiders or anything else, are "correctly" or not named per policy and real-world usage is, as noted above and previously ad nauseam, wholly irrelevant too. We have to look at the broad policy and practice - which, for countries, is to use the common, short-form name, ie in this case "Taiwan". That holds on WP and indeed in every respected general use English-language encyclopedia-style source, from BBC and CIA country profiles to Whitakers to Britannica. For this entity, the common name is undoubtedly Taiwan. Full stop. And, finally, the notion of the ROC as a wider government of the whole of greater China is indeed theoretical and abstract as a concept and has no weight as a basis for naming this article, or for references to this entity elsewhere on WP. I have a friend who once thought he was Napoleon. He does not get equal billing here. (OK, not really and that exaggerates the point, but still ...) N-HH talk/edits 11:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Please drop the obscure, irrelevant, off-topic "analogies". I simply KNOW that Taiwan is the common name. I'm sure you do too. It's been proven many times. Wanting to use it here has NOTHING to do with politics. You are conceding nothing. That is not collaboration. HiLo48 (talk) 11:09, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- "abstract theoretical non-PRC "Republic of China"" - but the ROC isn't theoretical. The ROC doesn't "theoretically" exist. As for what people call it, whilst normal people call it the "common spider crab", scientists (more specifically, biologists) call it the Libinia emarginata. Similarly, from a few links given above, those within the fields of law call it the Republic of China, even within places like Australia, whilst only laymen call it "Taiwan". Wikipedia can afford to be more technical than other texts because Wikipedia is not print media. Otherwise, we may as well rename e2fsprogs as "Ext2 file system utilities" and IBMDOS.COM as "DOS kernel executable", which are less technical and more "human" ways of naming them. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 10:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- You seem confused. We are not offering our "opinions" nor are we spokespeople for our supposed nations. You or others may be, I don't know. We have simply looked at the evidence as to common name from sources around the world, including of course from Taiwan itself. ROC is occasionally used, but it is not the common, mainstream terminology in 2012. It simply isn't. It doesn't matter why that might be, or that there is a history as ROC or wider claimed territories as ROC (we have articles on these points). This article purports to be about the modern country/state/renegade province/whatever, with a historical trail in the body, not about some abstract theoretical non-PRC "Republic of China". It should be named - and contemporary references to the entity elsewhere on WP should follow that - what the rest of the world calls this thing, ie "Taiwan". End of. N-HH talk/edits 10:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Interestingly, I've noticed the ones here fighting the hardest for ROC = Taiwan are the Aussies and the Brits. How can their view on the majority of English speakers truly be the majority when Aussies+Brits < Americans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk)
- (Re N-HH's post at 11:30, 1 February 2012) I happened to have come across rulings of Australian and US courts that use "Republic of China" to refer to the country. [5] [6] [7] "Republic of China (Taiwan)" also appears in an Irish statutory instrument. [8] [9] It's nothing about politics, the 60-year-old war, or the territorial claims. It's about accuracy and neutrality. It's also about easiness to further illustrate lesser known concepts such as the dispute around Taiwanese independence. If we call this country outright as Taiwan, and consider Taiwan to be an independent country, it will be difficult, for example, for us to explain to general readers why some people want Taiwan declare its independence. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Precisely. The idea that those simply asking for use of the common name are somehow being political or dragging politics into this unnecessarily is preposterous, and in fact has everything entirely on its head. Preferring the barely used, archaic "official" designation - which also asserts sovereignty over the whole of China - is rather obviously way more political and contentious. Since when did an "official" government designation (which of course is as often avoided even by official Taiwanese sources as it is used by them) become neutral? Also, if we're talking about clarity and the claim that simply calling this place "Taiwan" would confuse as to the island-country distinction and the extent of the territory actually ruled (let alone claimed), then what we have now hardly helps: an article at an obscure and generally avoided name, with a hatnote directing the reader to the article currently called Taiwan - which is, for now, specifically about the island itself and not any outlying regions/smaller islands - for details of "its territories". The worst of all worlds, it would seem. Obscure terminology, lack of clarity and misleading information. N-HH talk/edits 11:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Why isn't the country the primary topic, with the article for the island located at Ireland (island)? (Does the island article cover the islets around the (main) island btw?) And even if the country isn't the primary topic, why couldn't the country article be titled Ireland (country)? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Because when people write about Ireland, they usually mean the island (or so the consensus says), which includes both the state and the British part of the island (it's not written to mention every island around it, but these are so tiny it doesn't really make a difference). Why would it be titled "Ireland (country)"? Titles without brackets read much better, and using the word country with anything to do with that area of the world is a bad idea. CMD (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- The Great Britain article does make it clear that it covers the smaller islands around it. And I don't think Ireland the island is the primary topic and that the article on the country isn't. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Off you go then. See you later. N-HH talk/edits 22:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- The Great Britain article does make it clear that it covers the smaller islands around it. And I don't think Ireland the island is the primary topic and that the article on the country isn't. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Because when people write about Ireland, they usually mean the island (or so the consensus says), which includes both the state and the British part of the island (it's not written to mention every island around it, but these are so tiny it doesn't really make a difference). Why would it be titled "Ireland (country)"? Titles without brackets read much better, and using the word country with anything to do with that area of the world is a bad idea. CMD (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Why isn't the country the primary topic, with the article for the island located at Ireland (island)? (Does the island article cover the islets around the (main) island btw?) And even if the country isn't the primary topic, why couldn't the country article be titled Ireland (country)? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- (Re N-HH's post at 11:34, 3 February 2012) It's been mentioned umpteen times that governments are obliged to follow their own official positions. Both the UK and the US recognise only the government in Beijing, and as a result the CIA and Whitakers are obliged to follow. And for the US in particular, there's a piece of legislation requiring the government not to recognise the Taipei government. As for the second part of your argument, ROC's claim is irrelevant here. It's about the hard fact that it's the ROC that was established in 1912 and celebrated the 100th anniversary of its revolution months ago. It wasn't Taiwan that was established in 1912 and celebrated the 100th anniversary. I'm sure your friend has never ever been Napoleon. But the ROC had been China and is still part of China by some definitions. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- (Re N-HH's post at 10:02, 3 February 2012) "This article purports to be about the modern country/state/renegade province/whatever" - This article isn't only about the modern country/state. It's about the country/state in general. We don't exclude information that aren't modern. And, as a matter of fact, we got separate articles on ROC's streamlined province of Taiwan and PRC's claimed province. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Trying to deal with points from both posts, not that anyone should have to .. 1) the idea that guides are "obliged" to follow what their national governments happen to say is as ridiculous and pointless as anything you've said in your various guises here. And, even if it were the case - and even accepting that there might be a vague, indirect connection there - that is either irrelevant to, or even bolsters, the common name case. It doesn't matter why something might be the common name, it's the fact that it is, as evidenced in multiple sources that define it. 2) the ROC has indeed "been China". Perhaps you should note the tense involved there. 3) I never said this article is, or should be, about "only about the modern country/state". I never said "only", and you've avoided the qualifier I added in that original post, "with a historical trail in the body [of the article]". Given that the very first sentence says "The Republic of China .. is a unitary sovereign state located in East Asia" I would appear to be correct as to what this article is purporting to be about; and about how inaccurate all the terminology here is, given that "Taiwan" is how most people and sources refer to the place these days. Now, go away please. N-HH talk/edits 21:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Please follow Wikipedia:Indentation#Indentation guidelines (#2 and #3 particularly) on how to reply to comments. Sources that are intrinsically biased should be dismissed. The CIA is part of the US government and is obliged to follow legislations enacted by the US Congress. Further, as you may not already know, inhabitants of Kinmen and Matsu cannot declare to be from Taiwan when they apply for visas at the AIT, even though they apply with ROC passports. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have little interest in your opinions about WP indentation guidelines or the arcane details of UK immigration rules (I assume that is what you are referring to by AIT). Your points about whether the CIA simply follows US legislation and whether we should ignore what the US government and all its constituent parts say - for better or worse - when we are looking, simply, at what common terminology is for something are equally irrelevant to the point at issue. However, if you wish to ignore "official" descriptions, let's also exclude the Taiwanese government's occasional (and diminishing in frequency) terminology. Then we'll have virtually no one using "ROC". Agreed? N-HH talk/edits 22:09, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid the AIT represents the US instead of the UK. My point was that these governments can only use the inaccurate term "Taiwan" as a euphemism for the "Republic of China" because of their ties with Beijing. And as far as the US is concerned, their legislation does not define Kinmen and Matsu to be part of Taiwan. AIT's policy is a reflection of their legislation. If you don't know how to indent properly, it's difficult to discuss. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have little interest in your opinions about WP indentation guidelines or the arcane details of UK immigration rules (I assume that is what you are referring to by AIT). Your points about whether the CIA simply follows US legislation and whether we should ignore what the US government and all its constituent parts say - for better or worse - when we are looking, simply, at what common terminology is for something are equally irrelevant to the point at issue. However, if you wish to ignore "official" descriptions, let's also exclude the Taiwanese government's occasional (and diminishing in frequency) terminology. Then we'll have virtually no one using "ROC". Agreed? N-HH talk/edits 22:09, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Please follow Wikipedia:Indentation#Indentation guidelines (#2 and #3 particularly) on how to reply to comments. Sources that are intrinsically biased should be dismissed. The CIA is part of the US government and is obliged to follow legislations enacted by the US Congress. Further, as you may not already know, inhabitants of Kinmen and Matsu cannot declare to be from Taiwan when they apply for visas at the AIT, even though they apply with ROC passports. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Trying to deal with points from both posts, not that anyone should have to .. 1) the idea that guides are "obliged" to follow what their national governments happen to say is as ridiculous and pointless as anything you've said in your various guises here. And, even if it were the case - and even accepting that there might be a vague, indirect connection there - that is either irrelevant to, or even bolsters, the common name case. It doesn't matter why something might be the common name, it's the fact that it is, as evidenced in multiple sources that define it. 2) the ROC has indeed "been China". Perhaps you should note the tense involved there. 3) I never said this article is, or should be, about "only about the modern country/state". I never said "only", and you've avoided the qualifier I added in that original post, "with a historical trail in the body [of the article]". Given that the very first sentence says "The Republic of China .. is a unitary sovereign state located in East Asia" I would appear to be correct as to what this article is purporting to be about; and about how inaccurate all the terminology here is, given that "Taiwan" is how most people and sources refer to the place these days. Now, go away please. N-HH talk/edits 21:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- (Re N-HH's post at 10:02, 3 February 2012) "This article purports to be about the modern country/state/renegade province/whatever" - This article isn't only about the modern country/state. It's about the country/state in general. We don't exclude information that aren't modern. And, as a matter of fact, we got separate articles on ROC's streamlined province of Taiwan and PRC's claimed province. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- (Re HiLo48's post at 07:18, 1 February 2012) It isn't a 60-year-old war, but to stick with the hard facts. The hard facts are that this article is about the Republic of China from its founding in 1912, and that this article is about a location which extent is wider than what is considered to be Taiwan. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- (Re HiLo48's post at 07:18, 1 February 2012) Insofar as the Republic of China being forced to call itself Taiwan due to international politicking by the People's Republic of China, an endorsement of the Republic of China = Taiwan is an endorsement of the People's Republic of China's POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 18:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's a pragmatic approach to use the alternative name to identify itself. But that doesn't mean the two terms are ≅, ≡ or ≝ with each other. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 08:13, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- To 159.53.78.140 - absolute crap!. I want to call it Taiwan because it makes sense. I have no interest in what the People's Republic of China wants. How many times do I have to say that the people motivated by politics here are those opposing the change, such as yourself, and they are also showing very poor faith by ignoring what those wanting change say, and accusing US of being politically motivated. Your view of the world is very distorted, very dishonest and very rude. Grow up. Accept reality. And let us all move on. HiLo48 (talk) 21:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- They appear not to understand basic logic either. Just because term A is preferred by group 1, it does not of course follow that people accepting term A are part of or sympathetic to group 1. It could just mean that - for whatever reason - term A is what the whole world now uses, and per our policies here and by common sense and familiarity, we just want to follow that. But hey, intelligence isn't what counts here. It's about topping up each section of the talk page with trolling, so those sections never get archived and everyone else wastes their time responding. N-HH talk/edits 21:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- And I want to call/rename the Elizabeth II article to Queen of England like we call her America. That's what we call her on this side of the pond. But would it be right?
- Google search for Queen of England: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=11&gs_id=v&xhr=t&q=queen+of+england&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=queen+of+en&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d4aea2a5825eafc1&biw=1280&bih=851
- Google search for Queen of Scotland: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=11&gs_id=v&xhr=t&q=queen+of+england&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=queen+of+en&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d4aea2a5825eafc1&biw=1280&bih=851
- Google search for Queen of Northern Ireland: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=Queen+of+Northern+Ireland&pbx=1&oq=Queen+of+Northern+Ireland&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=190552l190552l3l190943l1l1l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d4aea2a5825eafc1&biw=1280&bih=851
- Google search for Queen of Wales: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=Queen+of+Wales&pbx=1&oq=Queen+of+Wales&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=18351l18788l4l18929l5l5l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d4aea2a5825eafc1&biw=1280&bih=851
- Google search for Queen of United Kingdom: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=Queen+of+United+Kingdom&pbx=1&oq=Queen+of+United+Kingdom&aq=f&aqi=g2g-v2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=33562l37748l5l38045l19l12l1l1l1l0l687l1936l5-3l4l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d4aea2a5825eafc1&biw=1280&bih=851
- Please note where the google search for "Queen of United Kingdom" says "Best guess for United Kingdom Queen is Elizabeth II"
- See? She's the Queen of England. It's obviously her common name. But is it right?
- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 02:47, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yet another irrelevant, off-topic, insulting post. HiLo48 (talk) 03:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- @HiLo48, irrelevant and off-topic as it may be, many of your own posts have not an ounce of civility and sometimes even your edit summaries are insulting. If you continue this way, you will only be creating evidence against yourself, so when it's time for WQA or even ANI and RfC/U, don't plead the fifth. GotR Talk 03:29, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Your kind of civility has achieved nothing here. I obviously come from a different place and presumably different culture than you, because "the fifth" means nothing to me. Maybe my cultural background says that if one approach isn't working, you try another. Anyway, I insist that a lot of the IP editors are being quite rude in the way they respond to good points made by others. They obfuscate. They ignore. They derail. They insult other editors' knowledge and intelligence. They may not use such firm language as mine, but it is NOT quality discussion. So, do you have a better suggestion to make this discussion move forward? HiLo48 (talk) 03:41, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have largely stayed out of this discussion precisely because nothing new/fresh is being offered, so I don't know what the devil you are talking about by "Your kind of civility has achieved nothing here". And I am afraid to say, you are deflecting by not admitting to your own, deep faults, and much of what you have written here is nothing but pure naïvete and brinkmanship. My suggestion to propel this discussion is that people set aside any notion of page moves and focus on content instead—although I agree that "Taiwan" should be avoided in references to the state, the ROC/Taiwan convention can be revised to be less strict (such as scrapping the requirement that Taiwan refer only to the island), but nevertheless maintain its spirit. GotR Talk 04:24, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- And that, sadly, completely ignores the very sensible, non-political, primary point made many times by many quite objective and fair editors here that Taiwan is the common name for the country. Given that you too are trying avoid that obvious point, and have no other solution to the debate than not having it, your motives in criticising me have to seriously be in question. HiLo48 (talk) 04:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- It is a concrete attempt at an solution that actually moves in your direction; my proposed softening of the convention is actually due to recognition of the common name issue. Staying away from largely abstract move discussions and moving towards discussion on content does not constitute denial of the point you make. If you did not have such a penchant to bludgeon others and to display the extent of your naivete, you would have seen this already. GotR Talk 05:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. Taiwan is merely a common name or a euphemism. It is neither accurate nor neutral, and apparently not adequately encyclopedic. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 15:04, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Just as "the fifth" has little to no meaning to you as a logically acceptable way of looking at things, saying the ROC = Taiwan has the wrong meaning and is logically unacceptable to many of us who do not come from the same part of the world as you. You're walking a very slippery slope. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.129.169 (talk) 05:56, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- It is a concrete attempt at an solution that actually moves in your direction; my proposed softening of the convention is actually due to recognition of the common name issue. Staying away from largely abstract move discussions and moving towards discussion on content does not constitute denial of the point you make. If you did not have such a penchant to bludgeon others and to display the extent of your naivete, you would have seen this already. GotR Talk 05:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- And that, sadly, completely ignores the very sensible, non-political, primary point made many times by many quite objective and fair editors here that Taiwan is the common name for the country. Given that you too are trying avoid that obvious point, and have no other solution to the debate than not having it, your motives in criticising me have to seriously be in question. HiLo48 (talk) 04:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have largely stayed out of this discussion precisely because nothing new/fresh is being offered, so I don't know what the devil you are talking about by "Your kind of civility has achieved nothing here". And I am afraid to say, you are deflecting by not admitting to your own, deep faults, and much of what you have written here is nothing but pure naïvete and brinkmanship. My suggestion to propel this discussion is that people set aside any notion of page moves and focus on content instead—although I agree that "Taiwan" should be avoided in references to the state, the ROC/Taiwan convention can be revised to be less strict (such as scrapping the requirement that Taiwan refer only to the island), but nevertheless maintain its spirit. GotR Talk 04:24, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Your kind of civility has achieved nothing here. I obviously come from a different place and presumably different culture than you, because "the fifth" means nothing to me. Maybe my cultural background says that if one approach isn't working, you try another. Anyway, I insist that a lot of the IP editors are being quite rude in the way they respond to good points made by others. They obfuscate. They ignore. They derail. They insult other editors' knowledge and intelligence. They may not use such firm language as mine, but it is NOT quality discussion. So, do you have a better suggestion to make this discussion move forward? HiLo48 (talk) 03:41, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- @HiLo48, irrelevant and off-topic as it may be, many of your own posts have not an ounce of civility and sometimes even your edit summaries are insulting. If you continue this way, you will only be creating evidence against yourself, so when it's time for WQA or even ANI and RfC/U, don't plead the fifth. GotR Talk 03:29, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yet another irrelevant, off-topic, insulting post. HiLo48 (talk) 03:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- In reality it has never been possible to be that strict on Wikipedia. And as a matter of fact it has to be so strict in order to preserve neutrality and avoid ambiguities. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 15:04, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- You seem to want some of us to respect your culture, where you come from. Many of us are asking you and those who stand with you to understand our culture, where we come from: The name is Republic of China. The name is not Taiwan. Please respect our culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.129.169 (talk) 05:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any distinction between editors with or with no registered account. We got registered editors here who apparently didn't even know about the ABCs around Taipei-Washington relations such as the AIT, and who don't bother to learn about the peculiar status of Quemoy, the Matsu Islands, etc., as far as the ROC and Taiwan are concerned. It's difficult to have any meaningful discussion. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- We also have editors here who are aware that arguing the toss about who knows what about obscure acronyms and abbreviations, and about marginal issues about outlying territories, has absolutely nothing to do with any debate about the common name of the overall entity (and that such arcane pettifoggery will, of course, happily maintain itself whether we refer to this place as "Taiwan" or "Republic of China"). Fortunately. I for one though do find the suggestion that you are contributing to "meaningful discussion" a little confusing. N-HH talk/edits 20:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any distinction between editors with or with no registered account. We got registered editors here who apparently didn't even know about the ABCs around Taipei-Washington relations such as the AIT, and who don't bother to learn about the peculiar status of Quemoy, the Matsu Islands, etc., as far as the ROC and Taiwan are concerned. It's difficult to have any meaningful discussion. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'd agree with 218.250.159.25 that it's meaningless to discuss anything with people who aren't familiar at all with the subject of the discussion. There are millions of articles on Wikipedia on topics that 999 in 1000 average laypersons on street don't know about at all. 202.189.108.245 (talk) 07:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
The majority of conversation above is circular and unproductive. 218.* (Netvigator Hong Kong, again), your constant efforts to filibuster discussion are achieving nothing - you're not convincing anyone to change their mind, and ultimately the weight of policy and strength of argument will decide this issue when it is eventually put to the community, not the reams upon reams of you saying the same thing over and over and over again.
HiLo and N-HH, it would appear that our Netvigator friend is being intentionally disruptive to support his particular point of view. His tactics of circular and repetitious argument appear intended to drive away other editors due to frustration. It would be better to simply ignore him altogether. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- Are you reading a different page from what I read? From what I read there were many other contributors. And I found those arguing for Taiwan = Republic of China circular, filibustering and unproductive. They are so disruptive that those arguing against (like GotR) had stayed out of the discussion. 202.189.108.245 (talk) 07:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Proposal for binding RFCs
There is a discussion on establishing a set of rules for binding RFCs located here [10]. If anything can use such a drastic remedy, this article might be it. Ngchen (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm all for this, however, it must first be applied to the China = PRC and ROC /= China before it is applied to the ROC = Taiwan discussion. This issue needs to be handled in the chronological order beginning with the first discussion and change (i.e. China = PRC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 20:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- We don't even know whether or not the draft policy is going to be possible. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Summarize issues on both sides
Can make separate statements in this section summarizing their arguments? That will make it easier for unacquainted editors to take a stand on the discussed issues. Right now, looking at the mass of text above, it's practically impossible to make head or tail out of it unless one decides to read every line of text. Thank you. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 17:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Republic of China should be re-named and moved to Taiwan
- Common name of the ROC is "Taiwan".
- Among those ignorant of the issue, there is potential confusion with the People's Republic of China
- Taiwan has in English become associated very closely with the state, and no evidence has been produced showing that discussion of the island is separated from the state of which it makes up basically all of. A clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
- WP:CONCEPTDAB suggests that the "Taiwan" article should cover the broad concept, which includes - but is not limited to - the main island.
- A google search from "Kinmen, Taiwan" has orders of magnitude more hits than "Kinmen, Fujian" or "Kinmen, Republic of China"; and Kinmen is clearly not part of the main island.
- There is potential confusion, for unfamiliar readers, between "Republic of China" and the "People's Republic of China"
- The concepts of ROC and Taiwan are not identical, so some content would need to change after a move; but that is not a problem, since this work has mostly been done already in userspace.
Republic of China should not be re-named and moved to Taiwan
- The ROC is not the clear primary topic for the term "Taiwan", which often clearly refers to just the island.
- The ROC's continued control of Kinmen, Matsu, and Wuciou as part of its own province of Fujian (which is in turn controlled mostly by the PRC) legitimises the name "ROC". In addition, a Google search for "Kinmen, Fujian" (without quotes) returns about the same number of results as "Kinmen, Taiwan" (without quotes).
- The ROC has not controlled Taiwan for all its existence—the history of the two do not neatly coincide.
- Confusability with People's Republic of China can be dealt with via a {{distinguish}} hatnote.
- Incoming links can be fixed and patrolled with Taiwan being a disambiguation page, and readers who type in the URL bar can be navigated by redirects and disambiguation pages.
- Thank you for summarizing the issues, Renmin. As I see it, there are generally three proposals for change at this point of time: (i) move Taiwan (disambiguation) to Taiwan, (ii) move Taiwan to Taiwan (island) and (iii) move Republic of China to Taiwan. Can we have a single RfC for this on a single page? If this RfC is well-organized, we will have better chances of finding out which direction consensus sways. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 18:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Did GotR and Cybercobra sign their comment?[11][12] 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC) 20:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- It seemed implied that the sections are intended to be collaborative. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- My impression is those proposing moves are in favour of combinations: either (i)+(ii) or (ii)+(iii). A third kind of change is a merge: a single article at "Taiwan" covering all aspects of the country, from its politics to its geography, like every other country article on Wikipedia. Kanguole 23:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Did GotR and Cybercobra sign their comment?[11][12] 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC) 20:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for summarizing the issues, Renmin. As I see it, there are generally three proposals for change at this point of time: (i) move Taiwan (disambiguation) to Taiwan, (ii) move Taiwan to Taiwan (island) and (iii) move Republic of China to Taiwan. Can we have a single RfC for this on a single page? If this RfC is well-organized, we will have better chances of finding out which direction consensus sways. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 18:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
China should be re-named to People's Republic of China; Republic of China and Taiwan (Island) article will not change.
- The English word "China" spans 3 different states, each ruled by different governments (and ethnicities). 1 has disappeared, while 2 remain. Using "Qing Dynasty" (the Qing Dynasty of China fought against Great Britain during the Opium Wars), "Republic of China" (the Republic of China fought with the Allied forces against the Axis forces) and "People's Republic of China" (the People's Republic of China supported North Korea during the Korean War) will ameliorate the discussion when speaking both historically and politically and in more current terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- And there should be an article on China as a geographical region. That article was moved to Chinese civilisation, with its content almost entirely removed. The content should be restored. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Discussion
My position is to:
- Retain Republic of China as it is, and expand its coverage on the history and geography of all of its existing landmasses, including those outside of Taiwan,
- Move Taiwan (the island article) to Taiwan (island),
- Move Taiwan (disambiguation) to Taiwan,
- Move China to People's Republic of China, and further summarise its pre-1949 history,
- Move China (disambiguation) to China, and
- Move Chinese civilisation to China (region), China (cultural region) or China (geographical region), and restore the deleted content.
218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with the pre-1949 history for the People's Republc of China; they existed just as the United States existed as the Continental Congress before the establishment of the USA. Also, the current "China" article makes it look as though the Republic of China ceased to exist in 1949. Renaming ROC -> Taiwan would only serve to incorrectly reinforce that confusion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk • contribs)
For Nearly Headless Nick and any other new users, a new move request is due to be submitted quite soon, where the arguments will no doubt be presented fresh. CMD (talk) 21:23, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm very glad we have this, it might help everyone understand what's going on, because we have everyone all over the place with no organization. And yes, Chipmunkdavis is correct, my Taiwan article thing that I started back in December is preparing an RM to go along with the 1st opinion: Move ROC to Taiwan. Jpech95 22:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- I, for one, oppose any move of this article: the Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province and its name here on WP should reflect that. I smell politics in all of this. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- You've said this before, yes. Was there anything you wanted to add or are you just re-stating your position? There will be an opportunity to voice your concerns on Jpech95's proposal specifically when it is formally put forward, which doesn't appear to have happened yet. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks TechnoSymbosis - Glad you understand where I am coming from. Well, specifically, I would like to ask about what this bit of the proposal means:
- You've said this before, yes. Was there anything you wanted to add or are you just re-stating your position? There will be an opportunity to voice your concerns on Jpech95's proposal specifically when it is formally put forward, which doesn't appear to have happened yet. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- "* Move China to People's Republic of China, and further summarise its pre-1949 history,
- Move China (disambiguation) to China..."
- "* Move China to People's Republic of China, and further summarise its pre-1949 history,
- If China is at PRC, how can China (dab) be at China? I'm sure some one can explain.
- Separately, the last bit of the proposal:
- "* Move Chinese civilisation to China (region), China (cultural region) or China (geographical region), and restore the deleted content."
- Does this proposal mean that the article will no longer be about the Chinese civilisation? If that is not what is proposed, I can't see the sense in changing the name of the article if it is about Chinese civilisation. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 23:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
- You'd have to ask 218.* about that, the moves mentioned above are his suggestion. I believe what he wants is for everything to go back to the way it was before our article on People's Republic of China was moved to China, with WP:COMMONNAME as a strongly cited reason. The desire of some of us to move Republic of China to Taiwan is in line with the already-performed PRC->China move. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:04, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- That article wasn't just about "Chinese civilisation" before it was axed. It was an article about China as a geographical-cultural region. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if the above was a response for me (if it was, thanks but it did not answer the small technical questions I asked). I absolutely oppose any move of the ROC article. The notion that it is justified on "COMMONAME" grounds is misguided. The Republic of China is far more than just Taiwan Province. The proposal ignores that. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 11:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- Does this "far more" have an area of 180.1 sq km and a population of 74,050? Kanguole 11:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if the above was a response for me (if it was, thanks but it did not answer the small technical questions I asked). I absolutely oppose any move of the ROC article. The notion that it is justified on "COMMONAME" grounds is misguided. The Republic of China is far more than just Taiwan Province. The proposal ignores that. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 11:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- BTW some countries in the world even smaller then this different...C933103 (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- "an area of 180.1 sq km and a population of 74,050" - As at 2012 ROC's Taiwan Province covers only about 70% of landmasses of the Taiwanese archipelago and about 40% of the population there. Even before 2010, Taipei and Kaohsiung, each with more than a million people, weren't part of Taiwan Province.[13] Please.. please don't pretend you know the meaning of Taiwan Province while you actually don't. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- The main proposal people are pushing for is not predicated on the Republic of China constituting Taiwan province and no more, but on the simple and incontestable fact that the common name for the modern state centred on Taiwan island (and officially and historically known as "ROC") is, in 2012, "Taiwan". We - along with every serious real-world source including the US State Dept, UK FCO, BBC, Britannica etc etc - all know that it includes other minor islands and territories, that there is history in respect of the name(s) and that there is a complicated relationship with mainland China/the PRC. As previous discussion makes clear. N-HH talk/edits 15:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- But wouldn't this renaming drawn attentions of readers who want to find information about the Taiwan island to the politic body? As in the case, would it be better to let the Taiwan be a disambiguation page which people can choose to redirect to Taiwan (island) or Taiwan (country)? But if it is to be called as [[Taiwan (country)], would it be simpler to call it as Republic of China? C933103 (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- Readers would find out just as much about the island hitting the state page, as the difference between the two is minimal and not significantly mentioned in either page. Also, there'd be a hatnote, like there is now, so same number of clicks for them, but with the possibility of getting the information they need anyway, and with the majority of users getting straight to the page they want. CMD (talk) 17:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'd bet most readers reach this country article through wikilinks. With Taiwan being a disambiguation page incoming links can all be fixed and patrolled. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
- @Chipumnkdavis, If it is the case then why there are two different articles?C933103 (talk) 18:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Re C933103: Yes. And Taiwan (country) is already a redirect that faithfully and dutifully brings readers to the article that they look for. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Readers would find out just as much about the island hitting the state page, as the difference between the two is minimal and not significantly mentioned in either page. Also, there'd be a hatnote, like there is now, so same number of clicks for them, but with the possibility of getting the information they need anyway, and with the majority of users getting straight to the page they want. CMD (talk) 17:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I for one oppose moving "Republic of China" to Taiwan. The "Republic of China" is far more than just Taiwan Province - and, for clarity, I am not just referring to ROC held islands outside the area of the "traditional Taiwan Province" or "contemporary ROC defined Taiwan Province". I am speaking of much bigger things. Any one who has ever visited Taipei will likely have been impressed by the CKS memorial there. Wouldn't it indeed be a monument well out of place if this was merely Taiwan. But it is not merely in Taiwan. It is in the Republic of China. That and so much more is the difference. You would be misleading readers if you were to rename the ROC article "Taiwan". Again, the "Republci of China" is far more than merely Taiwan Province. I support no further change to article names. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 11:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Common usage says "Taiwan" is the whole country. Last night I heard three separate TV programs from three different countries use that terminology. Politically motivated pedants, with no interest in making Wikipedia a truly accessible place are making this area a backwater. I withdrew from discussion here some days ago because of the ongoing obstinacy of this stubborn cluster of confusing IP editors who don't care how stupid this makes Wikipedia look. They just want to keep fighting old political battles. Having restated my position, I will probably again withdraw for some time. This is not a healthy area of Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs) 11:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Accessibility should not supercede accuracy. Most sources in the world use "Taiwan" because they bow to either political (CIA World Factbook) or economic (businesses and publications around the world that wish to do business in the PRC) pressure from the PRC. As a truly FREE and OPEN encyclopedia, Wikipedia does not have to bow to pressure either political or economic (this place gets its money from donations). We have a singular opportunity here at Wikipedia, we can do this better and more accurately than any other source in the world, whether the Encyclopedia Britannica or the CIA World Factbook; we are free from political pressure and we are open to all without costing anybody a thing; we are and can be beholden to no government nor business. We can be accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Bowing to pressure. You start off from the false premise that they would prefer to use the term "Republic of China". What political or economic pressure is Encyclopaedia Britannica bowing to? Also, accuracy is a non-argument. Terms have the meanings they are given. Here and now, Taiwan has the meaning of the state. That makes it as accurate as any other name. CMD (talk) 17:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Some sources are obliged to follow the official positions or even legislations of their respective countries (e.g. the CIA World Factbook). Some sources got economic or business considerations. But I'd rather say in that process most sources simply yield to the predominantly common usage so as to avoid the need to "decode" or "translate" the euphemisms that government officials and politicians say. After then the ROC government under a pro-independence party does so as part of its effort to desinicise itself. It's politically and practically difficult for the KMT government that followed to re-sinicise everything, although they actually acted to undo what its predecessor had done. Anyhow, you'd be impressed when you look for Taiwanese products (particularly electronic products) at home or in a Walmart (or even food products in Chinatowns) and found that many of these products are marked "Made in Taiwan, R.O.C.", even 60+ years after 1949. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Re HiLo48: "is the whole country" - Do they specifically and explicitly include the non-Taiwan parts of the contemporary republic? If not, it probably doesn't matter whether they identify it as Taiwan or as ROC. It simply doesn't make any difference at all in those contexts. But anyhow this country as a whole isn't going to be Taiwan unless its government gives up the non-Taiwan parts (or explicitly and statutorily defines the non-Taiwan parts to be Taiwan), ceases to consider itself to be carrying on the republic founded in 1912, enacts a new constitution, and changes its name. The Austrians initially have their country named Republic of German Austria and identified their country as the rightful successor to the Austrian Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, but they eventually dropped the name and all those identifications. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying, 86.45.54.230. This viewpoint can of course be presented in article text, but promoting it with the article name leaves Wikipedia out of line with contemporary English usage, not just in journalism but also in scholarly books and real encyclopedias. Kanguole 12:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- While I don't agree with 86.45.54.230, I am indeed worried that Wikipedia will soon be another venue of renaming en masse, repeating what'd happened in the ROC during the second Chen administration. The Wikipedia articles for China Airlines, China Television, Central Bank of the Republic of China, Chunghwa Post, The China Times, and so on and so forth will all have to be renamed just because of the notion that these names looks stupid and confusing to average lay readers. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have to say I am very much at one with much of what IP 159.53.174.144 said above. Also, some one suggested in response to me that somehow Taiwan is in contemporary usage and Republic of China is not. That is patently untrue. Just visit most ROC governement websites etc. Taiwan residents are generally proud of their ROC. Any way, again, I smell politics in all of this. The "Republic of China" has been the name of the article from the start. It is abundently clear that there is no consensus to move the article. Given this, I would hope this discussion can be brought to an end. If not, I will continue to participate as best I can. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 18:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- While I don't agree with 86.45.54.230, I am indeed worried that Wikipedia will soon be another venue of renaming en masse, repeating what'd happened in the ROC during the second Chen administration. The Wikipedia articles for China Airlines, China Television, Central Bank of the Republic of China, Chunghwa Post, The China Times, and so on and so forth will all have to be renamed just because of the notion that these names looks stupid and confusing to average lay readers. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Discussion about discussion
I will emphasise one more point before I again move on. This conversation is incredibly difficult to follow with all the unregistered IP editors contributing. I cannot keep track of who is saying what. Societies that want to dehumanise parts of their population take away peoples' names and give them numbers. Only a fool would do it to themselves. Yes, It's within the rules of Wikipedia to not register, but I cannot comprehend why you won't do it, just as I cannot comprehend your recalcitrance over the naming issue. Registering could only help your case. I say again, this part of Wikipedia is one of its ugliest parts. Newcomers will not comprehend the views of the IP editors for the many reasons already given. You will NEVER win your political fight here, so please stop destroying the place. You are not showing good faith in any way at all. Goodbye again for now. HiLo48 (talk) 20:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- From what I know there is no policy on Wikipedia to discriminate IP editors, and therefore register or not should make no difference to the case. Each IP editors got different IP addresses and therefore they can be tracked and identified, and it's your very own POV to call them fools. And further we don't label people by their names. We read what they actually said. I care only about the content of their arguments and I don't pre-judge one's arguments just because of their names. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I can't help myself. I MUST respond. If you think that post refutes ANYTHING I said, you are sadly deluded. Yet again, conversation here is appalling. A sick part of Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:44, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. It's not clear who is the same person commenting on a rotating IP, which are deliberate socks, etc. Equally, they are all piling in out of chronological order, mostly to add irrelevant side-points and petty trivialities and/or bizarre suggestions about rewriting WP naming policies to avoid the "bias" of the real world. Even GotR, who at least has a named account, is a confirmed sock account that was created to evade a block, and has now taken to removing others' talk page contributions - not once, but twice. As you say, it's time-consuming for everyone involved and counter-productive for them, not least because it clarifies their agenda here, which is nakedly political and obscurantist. At least the most ubiquitous disrupter and spammer, who is also almost certainly a block- or ban-evading sock, has now finally and explicitly conceded that Taiwan is the common name for the country - just that they do not like it - so we now have agreement on the only significant, substantive point that needs to be debated for now. Hopefully the move request, when put formally, will be agreed more cleanly and more easily. I'd even go so far as to say that some of these IPs need to be barred from contributing to that. N-HH talk/edits 20:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think I had conceded anything in the diff link that you quoted. It has always been my position that while Taiwan is a common reference to the contemporary ROC, Taiwan ≠ ROC. The two aren't identical nor congruent. And no I am not a sock. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:54, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- As for deletion of your remarks: I was told that those subsections were meant to be collaborative (see Cybercobra 21:12, 6 February 2012), and aren't supposed to be debated point by point. And I have actually restored those comments that GotR had deleted. Keep calm and stay cool. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think I had conceded anything in the diff link that you quoted. It has always been my position that while Taiwan is a common reference to the contemporary ROC, Taiwan ≠ ROC. The two aren't identical nor congruent. And no I am not a sock. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 21:54, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- The only appalling thing in this portion of the talk page is your rhetoric. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Let's not get back into a pointless discussion as to whether an editor understands why some editors prefer simply IP addresses. It's allowed on WP - period. We all have to abide by the rules (including against sock puppeting and intolerance etc). For what it is worth, I did recently explain why I prefer to edit as an IP. You can read the explanation at User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (section) if you wish. Back to the discussion, the Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province. That's the reason why I oppose the proposed move. I've already explaind a bit why I hold this view (as do many others). There is no consensus for any change in the article names. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 12:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- The discussion is not pointless. It's always useful in a debate to understand the true motivations of all participants. Understanding why you won't take the obviously (to me) helpful step of registering would really help me understand you better. Your link doesn't work. And you have repeated yourself without explanation, ignoring valid points made by others. Now, THAT'S a pointless post. HiLo48 (talk) 21:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- HiLo48, that's a pretty WP:BITE-y remark. S/he made a copypaste typo, and it really isn't that hard to figure out that copypasting the first half of the link in the URL bar leads to a working page. And yes, it does appear that your rhetoric so far has been rather belligerent, from what I have read above. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 01:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Congratulations. You've worked out that I am extremely frustrated with a group of editors deliberately avoiding constructive conversation here. Oh, and whenever I post something complicated like a link, I Preview it. (In fact I preview most of my longer posts to check for typos.) Our IP editors insist that they are skilled and experienced editors despite choosing not to register, thus making it look like they are not experienced. Why should I be the one to sort out their stuff-ups? HiLo48 (talk) 01:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we have WP-namespace pages regarding that, including WP:TEA, WP:BREAK and WP:COOL. Getting angry at people over the internet doesn't go anywhere, and it does give a novel impression towards the other people (if this wasn't Wikipedia, I would have uncontrollably put on my trolling hat and made a silly reply like "WHY YOU SO MAD YOU SO MAD YOU SO MAAAAAD INTERNET TEARS", but if I did that here I'd probably get my ass kicked by the community. That's exactly how I feel when I read people getting angry over the internet). You've given out your point already regarding your dissatisfaction towards other editors; any more than once and it gives people the impression that you're easy trollbait, and I'm practically grabbing my own nuts with my claws in stopping myself from behaving like I do on other websites. I'd advise you not to get internet-angry since it doesn't further your argument any better, and instead makes the situation more comic for people like myself. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 03:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's actually a very unhelpful contribution. You have made it appear that I am the problem here. I can quite deliberately and consciously choose what style I post with. Many of us here have tried the nice, rational and logical approach to the editors that are destroying this Talk page. It doesn't work. If you've looked beyond my post you will know that. I am quite deliberately trying another approach. You have now destroyed its effectiveness. You have given strength to those who are really damaging Wikipedia, when you should be condemning them. We shouldn't allow truly disruptive editors to be protected by a façade of niceness from others. Can you solve the REAL problem here please? HiLo48 (talk) 04:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we have WP-namespace pages regarding that, including WP:TEA, WP:BREAK and WP:COOL. Getting angry at people over the internet doesn't go anywhere, and it does give a novel impression towards the other people (if this wasn't Wikipedia, I would have uncontrollably put on my trolling hat and made a silly reply like "WHY YOU SO MAD YOU SO MAD YOU SO MAAAAAD INTERNET TEARS", but if I did that here I'd probably get my ass kicked by the community. That's exactly how I feel when I read people getting angry over the internet). You've given out your point already regarding your dissatisfaction towards other editors; any more than once and it gives people the impression that you're easy trollbait, and I'm practically grabbing my own nuts with my claws in stopping myself from behaving like I do on other websites. I'd advise you not to get internet-angry since it doesn't further your argument any better, and instead makes the situation more comic for people like myself. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 03:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Congratulations. You've worked out that I am extremely frustrated with a group of editors deliberately avoiding constructive conversation here. Oh, and whenever I post something complicated like a link, I Preview it. (In fact I preview most of my longer posts to check for typos.) Our IP editors insist that they are skilled and experienced editors despite choosing not to register, thus making it look like they are not experienced. Why should I be the one to sort out their stuff-ups? HiLo48 (talk) 01:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- HiLo48, that's a pretty WP:BITE-y remark. S/he made a copypaste typo, and it really isn't that hard to figure out that copypasting the first half of the link in the URL bar leads to a working page. And yes, it does appear that your rhetoric so far has been rather belligerent, from what I have read above. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 01:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- The discussion is not pointless. It's always useful in a debate to understand the true motivations of all participants. Understanding why you won't take the obviously (to me) helpful step of registering would really help me understand you better. Your link doesn't work. And you have repeated yourself without explanation, ignoring valid points made by others. Now, THAT'S a pointless post. HiLo48 (talk) 21:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- Let's not get back into a pointless discussion as to whether an editor understands why some editors prefer simply IP addresses. It's allowed on WP - period. We all have to abide by the rules (including against sock puppeting and intolerance etc). For what it is worth, I did recently explain why I prefer to edit as an IP. You can read the explanation at User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (section) if you wish. Back to the discussion, the Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province. That's the reason why I oppose the proposed move. I've already explaind a bit why I hold this view (as do many others). There is no consensus for any change in the article names. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 12:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. It's not clear who is the same person commenting on a rotating IP, which are deliberate socks, etc. Equally, they are all piling in out of chronological order, mostly to add irrelevant side-points and petty trivialities and/or bizarre suggestions about rewriting WP naming policies to avoid the "bias" of the real world. Even GotR, who at least has a named account, is a confirmed sock account that was created to evade a block, and has now taken to removing others' talk page contributions - not once, but twice. As you say, it's time-consuming for everyone involved and counter-productive for them, not least because it clarifies their agenda here, which is nakedly political and obscurantist. At least the most ubiquitous disrupter and spammer, who is also almost certainly a block- or ban-evading sock, has now finally and explicitly conceded that Taiwan is the common name for the country - just that they do not like it - so we now have agreement on the only significant, substantive point that needs to be debated for now. Hopefully the move request, when put formally, will be agreed more cleanly and more easily. I'd even go so far as to say that some of these IPs need to be barred from contributing to that. N-HH talk/edits 20:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I can't help myself. I MUST respond. If you think that post refutes ANYTHING I said, you are sadly deluded. Yet again, conversation here is appalling. A sick part of Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:44, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
(indent) You still don't get it? I'll try and explain this a bit further:
- A decent discussion of a controversial topic
- A: This is my point.
- B: I disagree with your point, here are my reasons.
- A: I support my point with these reasons. I debunk your reasons with these points.
- B: There is a flaw in your reasons in this section. Also, these points.
- What I seem to be seeing from you
- A: This is my point.
- B: Your point is wrong.
- A: This is another aspect of my point.
- B: As explained ad nauseam above, your point is wrong.
- A: Why are you ignoring my point?
- B: OH GOD, I TOLD YOU ALREADY, YOUR POINT IS WRONG, IT IS NULL AND VOID, IP EDITORS THESE DAYS, JESUS CHRIST
If you truly are getting frustrated, then take a break. Otherwise, change your rhetoric a bit, it's not constructive. I get the impression that you are selectively reading people's posts, selectively ignoring parts of posts, and then stating that other people's points are incorrect without effectively addressing them. Not only on this page; I've seen this elsewhere as well; it's not what I think to be the right way to deal with controversial issues. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 04:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- Again, you seem to want to make it look like the problems with this page are my fault, and you know they are not, so please put your effort into criticising those creating the problems. To help you understand, I'll provide you with a correct description of the flow we've seen above....
- A: These are my points.
- B: This is my point
- A: I believe your point is wrong and/or irrelevant because...... Can you please respond to the points I made.
- B: This is my point.
- A: Can we please have a conversation here. Please respond to the points I have made
- B: This is my point
- ...etc, etc, etc.....
- There is no real conversation occurring. I have wondered how to use Wikipedia's processes to address this, with no success so far. You know I am not the only person here experiencing the same difficulties. Please suggest a solution that doesn't involve allowing the deliberate (or incompetent?) obfuscators to keep damaging Wikipedia. If you keep telling me to give up, I can only assume that you are taking sides with those blocking progress here.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs) 05:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- The solution quite simply is to ignore them. If "B" is repeating the same point, to which "A" has already addressed, then there is no need for "A" to respond to "B" a second time. Increasing the volume of text on this page ends up scaring away the bystanders rather than enlightening them.--Jiang (talk) 20:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- I must confess I have not read every word posted above....But if we are still discussing IP editors and the supposed difficulty of reading posts by IP editors, I am disappointed. Frankly, I think such discussion is at this point simply disruptive. This is a talk page for the Republic of China article. If an editor has an issue with basic rules on Wikipedia (like the right of IP editors to participate), such editor should take that up elsewhere. If the discussion is again back to what it should be about, the article - again, I see no consensus here for the change proposed. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 20:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
(←) Re HiLo48's remarks at 01:43, 12 February 2012: "Our IP editors insist that they are skilled and experienced editors despite choosing not to register, thus making it look like they are not experienced. Why should I be the one to sort out their stuff-ups?" - Please be civil and familiarise yourself with Wikiquette. Meanwhile, while I do know the shortcomings for not having a registered account, I hope you can understand that Wikipedia isn't a place for labelling, but a place for meaningful and intellectual collaborations. Even if people are named and therefore can be more easily identified, we don't rely on their names. We rely on the actual content of their contributions. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:46, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- I am desperately trying to understand why some editors, such as the incognito one above, ignore things that others post. Possible reasons include bad manners, incompetence, illiteracy.... Hmm, I'm running out of ideas. My point is that I've already made many posts explaining why there are problems in the approach described in that post, and I've been ignored. If there is any possible positive explanation for that, can someone please tell me. HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- HiLo, I don't think you've been ignored, but I really don't think this discussion is going anywhere (which is possibly why it's mostly only the IP editors who are responding).. Does anyone mind if I collapse this "discussion about the discussion" section? People have vented a bit, and Benlisquare's posts were pretty funny, but it's probably time to wrap this one up, yes? Mlm42 (talk) 00:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. This page is for discussion about the Republic of China article, not for discussion about discussion. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- You have been told that the ROC isn't readily comparable with other island-countries. No other country (currently exist in 2012) has relocated its territorial existence in the way that the ROC did, and no other island-country has similar islands like Kinmen, Pratas, etc., like the ROC does. Have you ever tried to understand that? Who's ignoring who? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 06:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Who mentioned island countries? I certainly didn't. I don't think anyone else taking my perspective has either. It's irrelevant. The history is irrelevant. What is relevant is that almost all of the rest of the world uses the name Taiwan to refer to the whole country today. Ignoring that point just makes you look silly, stubborn, rude and stuck in the past. What I also understand is that you and several other IP editors here are obsessed with a very narrow issue, and cannot see the damage they are doing. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- HiLo, I don't think you've been ignored, but I really don't think this discussion is going anywhere (which is possibly why it's mostly only the IP editors who are responding).. Does anyone mind if I collapse this "discussion about the discussion" section? People have vented a bit, and Benlisquare's posts were pretty funny, but it's probably time to wrap this one up, yes? Mlm42 (talk) 00:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry for referring to the wrong argument. That point about island-country was indeed presented but that wasn't yours. I have gone through your comments again and indeed your only argument was that "Taiwan" is the common name for the whole country, and it isn't political. That's how the whole world call this country. It's completely neutral and that's just the name of the country. The statement "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader" is 100% clear. It's the common name among 99% of the English-speaking world.
- And your responses to the background detail about this country, from its founding across the strait back in 1912, its relocation, its geographical extent as at 2012 beyond the Taiwanese archipelago, its constitution, etc., were: absolute rubbish, unhelpful, obfuscating, fighting 60-year-old wars (you didn't use the hyphen according to standard English grammar, by the way), obscure, irrelevant, off-topic, absolute crap, insulting, politically-motivated pedants, and pointless. And you assert that IP editors aren't experienced. You simply didn't want to go into any detail and to engage in any intellectual discussion.
- As a matter of fact you'd even failed to understand that journalistic statement like "China welcomes second term for Taiwan's leader" wouldn't ever be accepted by Wikipedia. That isn't something Beijing can actually say with such wordings, and Wikipedia has an official policy not to endorse or reject ROC's existence as a sovereign state.
- You claimed that "almost all of the rest of the world uses the name Taiwan to refer to the whole country today. Ignoring that point just makes you look silly, stubborn, rude and stuck in the past.", but you didn't even reply to my question two days and a half ago at 18:32, 10 February 2012: Do they specifically and explicitly include the non-Taiwan parts of the contemporary republic? It's really time to ask who's ignoring who, and who's ignoring the hard fact and doing the damage. It's perhaps time to follow Ireland's path to submit this trouble to the ArbCom for considerations. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 09:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- I did not "assert that IP editors aren't experienced." I pointed out, with very positive intentions, that people who choose not to register run the risk of looking inexperienced. Any mistake they make will be put down by others to the fact that they are only posting from an IP address and therefore probably don't know the rules properly and don't really have a strong background on Wikipedia. I still cannot comprehend the logic of why so many editors on this page remain unregistered. And before anyone says "because they can", that is simply not a reason. HiLo48 (talk) 19:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Most references to "Taiwan" include all those territories under the direct current control of the government, including Kinmen etc. See the factbooks and country profiles referenced ad nauseam. Even if some do not, that doesn't affect the fundamental point about what the broad entity is called (and such issues, to the extent that they are issues, would of course still arise whatever it was called). People keep telling you that, and keep pointing out that plenty of countries have similar issues of sovereignty and integration at the margins. The wider issue about overall sovereignty/independence is irrelevant to the name too, and again would arise whatever we call this thing. Also, plenty of countries have come into existence out of nothing or out of other, previous countries; and also have moved their territorial bases or centres over time, even if not quite as dramatically as ROC. Everyone else in the world copes with these difficulties while referring to "Taiwan" in 2012. Wikipedia can too, despite what you happen to think. All your points have been answered to the extent that they ever can be - that's why people are getting p#ssed off with you for continually raising them. ROC is not what the country is called by anyone today - it is called Taiwan. Hence, the WP article that purports to be about the country cannot be called ROC - it should be called Taiwan. Perhaps we can also have a more esoteric article about ROC and its history (indeed we do already of course to some extent eg the History and Government pages), but the basic point here is really very, very simple.
- ps: please do not respond with another "what about ...?" N-HH talk/edits 14:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- If in case you don't already know, one of my questions was that: Are the islands along the coast of Fujian and in the South China Sea ever considered part of Taiwan, on the condition that the term "Taiwan" isn't used as a euphemism for "Republic of China"? My another question was: For how long has it been known as Taiwan? I also asked: How are we going to explain topics like Taiwanese independence movement? All these questions met with answers like silly, stubborn, rubbish, unhelpful, irrelevant, fight a 60 year old war, crap, or vague answers like "addressed in the text". We also talked about neutral point of view and common name issues, and acceptability of exceptions for special cases. The only answer was that it's common, as common as 99% English speakers do, and no one bothered to discuss Republic of Ireland as a precedence. Not even the neutrality issues in the World Factbook was ever considered. Coupled with the problem that some had exhibited quite a lot of misunderstandings about the subject matter, I don't think the discussion here had ever got those fundamental questions answered. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- This is precisely the problem. None of those things you mention are "fundamental questions" when it comes to the basic point at issue, but you keep repeating them. Issues about Ireland, outlying islands, history and supposed bias (unless severe) etc etc are simply neither here nor there. You seem to be under the misapprehension that we are here to debate what the article title ought to be, based on detailed analytical argument and debate. We are not. The fundamental issue is very simple - not what this thing ought to be called (or what random WP editors think it "ought" to be called), but what it is called. I'm not interested in having a debate about the first aspect, let alone by way of rehashing the same old arguments over and over again. Nor do we need to. Do you get this? N-HH talk/edits 19:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- If in case you don't already know, one of my questions was that: Are the islands along the coast of Fujian and in the South China Sea ever considered part of Taiwan, on the condition that the term "Taiwan" isn't used as a euphemism for "Republic of China"? My another question was: For how long has it been known as Taiwan? I also asked: How are we going to explain topics like Taiwanese independence movement? All these questions met with answers like silly, stubborn, rubbish, unhelpful, irrelevant, fight a 60 year old war, crap, or vague answers like "addressed in the text". We also talked about neutral point of view and common name issues, and acceptability of exceptions for special cases. The only answer was that it's common, as common as 99% English speakers do, and no one bothered to discuss Republic of Ireland as a precedence. Not even the neutrality issues in the World Factbook was ever considered. Coupled with the problem that some had exhibited quite a lot of misunderstandings about the subject matter, I don't think the discussion here had ever got those fundamental questions answered. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Back to discussion re the Article
I've created this break in the discussion as it was getting sidetracked on irrelevant points (General Wiki principles etc). Again, there is no consensus for any change so I do not see where this discussion is going. The Republic of China is far more than Taiwan Province. Hence, the article's name is appropriate. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 10:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Shouldn't that be the Republic of China was far more than Taiwan, but now is only a little bit more? So while we should have an article on the history of the ROC, when naming the article on the country as it exists today we should also follow the preponderance of usage in reliable English-language sources. Kanguole 11:43, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't get this argument at all. Even the island of Taiwan is more than Taiwan Province. Is that articles name inappropriate too? CMD (talk) 13:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)