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:::::::::But these Cheka agents also had to be quite numerous and well trained to do it, cause desserters take the guns with them and can oppose fierce resistance.[[User:Anonimu|Anonimu]] 00:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Right. Hence the [[Pitchfork Uprising]], [[Tambov Rebellion]], Makhno, and others. You probably have no idea that Russian Civil War was not between Reds and Whites, but mostly between Reds and "Greens", that is civilians (based on the numbers of victims). But Cheka was represented by Internal Troops with guns and [[chemical weapons]], plus Red Army (thouse who fought for whatever reason, such as not to be shot themselves).[[User:Biophys|Biophys]] 00:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::Anyway, the Reds were some real muthafuckers... they fought the whites, greens, anarchists, ethnic nationalist, czechs, brits, yankees, japs, frenchies, romanians etc and they won. they almost eliminated poles, but shit happens and they had to settle with an armistice. nevertheless, that's a great lesson on how to defend your ideals.[[User:Anonimu|Anonimu]] 00:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
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Ordered by Lenin
Was the Red Terror ordered by Lenin, or by the other members of the Bolshevik leadership? Was Lenin incapacitated at the time? I am interested in the degree to which Lenin was personally responsible. Kent Wang 08:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
From what I gathered, the [1] (original declaration of the Red Terror):
"We will turn our hearts into steel, which we will temper in the fire of suffering and the blood of fighters for freedom. We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable, so that no mercy will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible." 154.5.39.80 06:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
This article should be divided to several articles
I think Red Terror in Russia, Estonia and Hungary should be made as separate articles, because all of them are different events, although there is significant similarity. It says in the beginning: "The Red Terror was a campaign of mass arrests, deportations, and executions targeted against counterrevolutionaries in Russia during the Russian Civil War." This is more or less correct, but this is Russia in 1918, not Estonia in 1940s. Any thoughts? Biophys 22:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- Currently the article is a mess. The Estonial part is unreferenced. The hungarian part does not say whether the term "vörös terror" was used at these times. It is unclear whether these pieces deserve separate articles. Russian Red Terror was an official term. Other countries may well be political epithets, possibly directly borrowed from Bolshevik phraseology or possibly introduced postfactum, in modern times. Am an not an expert here, these are just my suspicions based on an experience of observation how easily people use the same word in other contexts for political purposes. The first and foremost thing is to have a well-written and referenced texts about the corresponding histories, not to define more usages of a political buzzword. See my dialog: User_talk:Gubbubu#Red_Terror. `'mikka 23:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- I partly agree. The Estonian part definitely looks like POV fork. Everything should be sourced. I will try to improve this article later.Biophys 04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I think Red Terror (Hungary) should be a separate article, just as Red Terror (Spain). The Estonian part, if no references found, probably should be removed. I will check sources.Biophys 05:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- You did not address my major concern, which is expanded further: the Red Terror (Spain) article gives no hints who and when used the term "red terror" in application to the events in question. Once again, it must be clearly established whether it is a well-known term applied to the events in question, whether the term was used by supporters or the opponents of the terror or it was the later coinage by historians. You cannot introduce terms arbitrarily. `'mikka 20:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. As an explanation of my concern, as you may know people like to slap political epithets retroactively and overgeneralized. Examples of abused terms are "holocaust", "ethnic cleansing", "genocide". (It required a serios effor to rid wikipedia of "silicone holocaust", "Native American Holocaust", etc.) I have no doubts that the term "revolutionary terror" was quite popular in Spain or Hungary. The question is whether it is a standard way to term it as "Red Terror", and if yes, there should be very serious scholarly sources to make it an article title to address the corresponding period in the history of the country. `'mikka 20:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think you are exactly right. That was originally official term only for Russia. But then it was applied by journalists and writers to anything. Yes, I found publications claiming Red Terror in Estonia and during French Revolution. So, this should be probably reflected in the articles.Biophys 23:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- I partly agree. The Estonian part definitely looks like POV fork. Everything should be sourced. I will try to improve this article later.Biophys 04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that some scholarly sources consider Red Terror as an important turning event in the world history, the first of numerous Communist terrors which consumed many countries later, from Eastern Europe to Asia nad Africa. This certainly should be mentioned here.Biophys 16:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Problems with first paragraph
Currently, the first paragraph of this article claims that the assasination of Moisei_Uritsky was simultaneous with Fanya Kaplan's attempted assasination of Lenin, and, in my reading of it at least, implies that both incidents were perpetrated by Fanya Kaplan.
However, the Moisei_Uritsky page claims he was assasinated on August 17th by Leonid Kanegeiser. According to this article and the Lenin article the attempt on Lenin's life was two weeks later on August 30th.
I don't really feel qualified to make any changes to this article, but the first para does seem to lack consistency with other pages on here. Tasiel 12:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Agree. I will try to correct this as time allows.Biophys 14:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Hungarian Red Terror
- (moved from talk pages)
Please provide the historical quotations that confirm that the events were called "Red Terror", i.e., that it is not a neologism of modern researchers. `'mikka 15:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- Serch in the google for "vörösterror" or "vörös terror": [2], but the expression is used from the very early period of the Horthy era. The fact is that even Lukács used it in 1920 in his qouted essay The social hinterland of white terror:
- ("Mi a vörös terror? A hatalomra jutott proletárosztály elszánt, erőszakra is kész akaratának intézményes formája avégből, hogy a szocializmushoz vezető út akadályait (ellenforradalom, szabotázs, korrupció, lánckereskedés stb.) eltakarítsa a maga útjából. A proletárdiktatúra igazi célja az építés / what means
- "what is red terror? The validation of the will of the proletariat grabbed the power to the effect clearing off the road to socialism - fully with barriers: counter-revolution, sabotage, corruption" [etc.].
But you can find a lot of quotations, e.g. [3]; [4]; [5]; [6] [7], [8]; I think this is more than enough. Naturally, under the time of Rákosi- and Kádár-dictature, it was a quite "prohibited topic"; so in the sources written between 1945 and 1990, you won't find this expression I guess. But I think you can find the expression in "The black book of communism", too (I'm not sure; cause I haven't read yet). And I don't understand what do you mean when saying "it is not the neologism of modern researchers". I think a modern lexikon must follow the science of history and we must not be fixated at historans of ancient ages. ♥♥♥: Gubb ✍ 2007. May 4 16:41 (CEST) 16:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you. Please keep in mind this is not a personal question made out of curiosity or doubt. In addition to description of the events, you must clearly describe and refer the usage of the expression in the article. A separate article is also a good idea. `'mikka 17:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- You write: Naturally, under the time of Rákosi- and Kádár-dictature, it was a quite "prohibited topic". I fail to see why "naturally prohibited" Red Terror (i.e., elimination of enemies of worker class) was A Good Thing from the point of view of communists. `'mikka 23:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, to communists there are two kinds of terror: double-plus-good "revolutional terror" and double-minus-not-good "white terror". But despite of this, Red Terror was a prohibited topic. You weren't able to say "June 26: Szamuely killed 9 men in Ujpest", you had to say that instead "There were local conflicts at ... and ..., but the red power solved them effectively". And so on (it is familiar for me: communist pov pushers editing, "correcting facts" and "poving" here in English Wikipedia with the exactly same terminology). And of course you weren't able to Szamuely hanged mercantiles because they didn't want to pay him certain sum of money (yes: this is simple extortion or robbing, as you like - of course "it couldn't happened during a Soviet power, no way"). I think you know what I mean: euphemism, half-justice, and recolourintg facts. And in Kadar-era - "the most joyful bunk", if you know what I mean - what based on the consolidation and living together with "enemies" of communism (Kádár said "who is not against us, is with us" referring to Rakosi's famous Bible-paraphrase "The one who is not with us is against us"). So it was comfortless to the system reminding people there were once - and twice and three times - a red terror: it was quite enough hard for Kadar to make his image "the benignant grandfather who reformed communism, stopped the Rákosi-terror and gives the folk bread what costs 3.60 Ft. (so cheap, you know)". Communism is good, communism is peace, communism is heaven, communism equals progressivism - so the Rákosi terror had to be a bad, but one-time deflection - and if people spoke about that communism was terror between 1918 and 1919, communism wasd terror between 1947 and 1956 (what's more sad communism was terror between 1956 and 1970)? You see this is a big cognitive dissonance and the simplest kadarist solving of that is choking. So I think you won't find a school history book written between 1960 and 1989 what would use the expression "red terror" or would speak about Lenin boys more then in one sentence. One of the reasons of this is that what I said. Gubbubu 07:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- What you write is interesting. You seem to say that while in Russia ideologists were not ashamed of the term "Red Terror", in Hungary it was different. Like I wrote, this is NOT my personal curiosity. The goal is to improve the article. therefore I would like to see (in the article) the following info (supplied with reputable references)
- Was the term 'Vörösterror' used during the period of terror? (I know that the term 'Vörös' was in use to imply 'revolutionary', like, 'Vörös katonák')
- If the term was abandoned afterwards, why? (quoted opinions)
- If the term is used now, since when? Is there any opposition to its use today?
- Please give Hungarian versions of various specific historical terms like "Lenin Boys" or "requiration patrols" (I guess you meant "requisition patrols")
- Once again, please don't waste your time in the talk pages. We don't have a disagreeent. Just work with the article. Thank you, `'Miikka 15:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm not a historical linguist, and I don't think a term in itself is so interesting in this article. But I can say that:
- I don't know whether "vörösterror" was used, but "terror", "revolutional terror" surely was (in the hungarian article you can read some quote). It is hard to say, because we don't have many documents from that time. The era around 1918 and 1920 was so chaotic, bloody and "acute" (world war, revolution, romanian occupation), so I think men rather done history then labouring out historical terminology (but George Lukács in an article I mentioned to you used the expression "red terror"). You see, that is not sure at all there are exact answers to your questions, mainliy if you want indisputable references, they are too exact and probably requiring original research.
- Like above;
- Like above. I don't know about serious opposition of the term, I think even communist historians (if there are any nowadays) don't deny the fact, quarrels between hungarian historians rather happen in more particular, but politically serious things (number of victims: how many was, was white terror "more terroristic" than red terror or red terror was "more terroristic", was red terrorism a progressive, humanist, moral movement because bad white terrorists inhibited poor communists, what was before what: the chicken or the egg, etc.)
- Hungarian analogons of the expression can be given easily, I will do it. Yes, I meant that. Thx for correcting. Gubbubu 08:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a minor point about the hungarian part. It states that red terror happened during the Hungarian Soviet RepueenFblic. I believe that the term here would be Hungarian Soviet Republic, but since I don't know a word of hungarian, I'd rather leave the edit to someone who knows anything about the topic. Thanks in advance! 141.76.40.139 07:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
In my view, the article is still seriously biased. In Hungary during the Soviet Republic there was no red terror to speak of (after the Great War, when many people became simply barbaric and many men had weapons, 500 and odd executions, may be unjust, but such number is very low. The gendarmie killed many more people from the collapse of the army of the Monarchy to 21 March 1919). Kun had to explain himself to Lenin for the lack of repressions. Even the murderous trainy officers (cadets) of the coup d'etat of July were pardonned (mainly for foreign policy reasons). If you read the extremely biased book of Váry (afterall, what do you expect in 1922? - as if you expected Goebbels to write an objective report on Hitler. It was an untouchable subject until 1945 - about 1918-19 nobody could write objectively, either throwing mud, or nothing. Also, did you read the reference to Kodolányi? 1944... Do you expect an objective account from that year?), it is clear, that the executions took place where there were anti-government revolts. It could be argued that the revolts had basis, but not that the executions did not. The Hungarian Soviet Republic was surprisingly soft in the period, compared to either other revolutions or counter-revolutions.
As to the other subject: it was called red terror in Hungarian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz (talk • contribs) 16:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Problematic edits
My recent citation of Richard Pipes on the Communist terror has been reverted twice by user Strothra. That was done without any explanation and justification. I would appreciate if he explained his reverts. Well, I am not going to begin an RR war. Instead, I will work seriously to improve this article, which is not in a good shape at the moment.Biophys 03:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- While Pipes is a historian, your addition to the article contributed nothing encyclopedic. It added only vague opinion and interpretation, not research. Further, it was completely off-topic as it placed under the "Purpose of the Soviet Red Terror." Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox. Also note that much of Pipes' research is now quite dated and there are many newer and insightful studies that make far greater usage of documentation not examined in his works. --Strothra 03:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is completely appropriate to include opinions of notable historians, such as Richard Pipes in WP. Such opinions are cited in many WP articles. If you think Pipes is wrong, you are welcome to add alternative opinions supported by reliable sources here, per WP:NPOV. It is appropriate to cite opinions about Red Terror in article about Red Terror. This has nothing to do with soapbox. I cite a scholarly book, not a newspaper article.Biophys —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Citation of Richard Pipes has been deleted again on the following grounds: "the article about red terror, not about Pipes view". First of all, this is not simply someone's published opinion, this is one of conclusions made by a prominent researcher who dedicated his life to study of Communist systems. Obviously, it is appropriate to cite expert opinions about Communist Terror in article about Communist Terror. Once again, if you think that citing Pipes is POV, you are welcome to add alternative opinions supported by reliable sources, per WP:NPOV. But I am very forthcoming and can cite myself several opinions/conclusions by experts, instead of one. That is not a problem, since there are numerous scholarly sources on this subject.Biophys 13:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Although it is an opinion it is notable opinion based on facts and helps to understand the concept better. If you have any other opinions contradicting this one, please feel free to add them to the article. Thus I have restored it for now. Suva Чего? 13:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- there are tons of books written about red terror. We need a coherent text describing events not sequence of citations of opinions and speculations. Whoever Pipes was, wikipedia needs facts, not lengthy citations of witty but biased historical comparisons from an obvious political enemy. The main point was already made in the first paragraph: Pipes says that violence is inherent in Bolshevik theory and politics. OK. No one argues with this. The whole revolution thing was about violence and carnage of political enemies. `'Míkka 14:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Mikka is correct. The article must be encyclopedic. The only way to do that is to address the historical nature of the event - the who, what, when, where, how, why. Counterfactuals and lengthy quotes that are vague and tell us nothing do not add to the article. Just because Pipes said something does not make it encyclopedic. --Strothra 14:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- there are tons of books written about red terror. We need a coherent text describing events not sequence of citations of opinions and speculations. Whoever Pipes was, wikipedia needs facts, not lengthy citations of witty but biased historical comparisons from an obvious political enemy. The main point was already made in the first paragraph: Pipes says that violence is inherent in Bolshevik theory and politics. OK. No one argues with this. The whole revolution thing was about violence and carnage of political enemies. `'Míkka 14:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Although it is an opinion it is notable opinion based on facts and helps to understand the concept better. If you have any other opinions contradicting this one, please feel free to add them to the article. Thus I have restored it for now. Suva Чего? 13:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Then I must remind you that we all must follow WP:NPOV policy which say the following:
- "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.
One can not suppress alternative positions here by deleting opinions supported by reliable sources. What I am using in not just a reliable source; this is a scholarly book written by a notable historian Richard Pipes. By the same token, opinions of other notable experts can be represented here as well.Biophys 14:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV has nothing to do with this. Pipes' views are certainly not alternative views to the mainstream. The point of this matter is content. You are not incorporating Pipes' research, but rather his opinion. This article is not about opinions of the Red Terror, it's about the Red Terror itself. What happened, who did it, why it happened, how it was taken out, where it occurred, etc. That information is what is encyclopedic. The conclusions you are including are being done in order to make your own point, thus tuning Wiki into your own personal soapbox and violating WP:NPOV.--Strothra 15:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Then you should read this again: "representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)" (WP:NPOV) It does not tell "facts". It tells "views". I agree that Pipes conclusions are "mainstream". But deletion of mainstream opinion is even worse, since mainstream views must be represented with a higher weight in WP per WP:NPOV. But I did not promote my opinion here. Obviously, this is conclusion by Pipes, not by me. To make this absolutely clear, I even cited him directly rather than providing my summary of his view(s). Well, then I must also cite directly other authors, to avoid your unfounded accusations that I am promoting my views.Biophys 15:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Please, no POV forks here!
A new reference about Pipes just has been included. If this author has something to tell about Red Terror (which could be different from the cited opinion by Pipes), it belongs here. But if author tells something about Pipes, it belongs to article about Pipes.Biophys 18:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- It provides context. ref only because it is "likely to be challenged". ref can be removed of course, if this is not the case.Anonimu 18:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- I mean the following. It is perfectly fine to represent here "pro-Communist" and "anti-Communist" views on Red Terror, in standard "pro" and "contra" style. In fact, some Communist views on Red Terror are already presented in the beginning of this article. But we are not going to include a long discussion about Richard Pipes political views, professional qualification, etc. in this article as completely irrelevant and described in another article. You wrote that he was "an anti-communist". I will write how many books did he published on Russian history and how many awards did he received. Do not you see where this leads? Such things indeed do not belong here.Biophys 19:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- BTW, "pro-Communist" and "anti-Communist" views on Red Terror are identical. Lenin tells that Red terror is absolutely neccessary, and Richard Pipes confirmes: yes, Lenin was right, it was indeed neccessary for communists to stay in power. What differs is their moral values.Biophys 19:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Since Communist views are clearly identified as such, it is normal for the anti-communist view to be also. The claim the bolshevics had no popular support is certainly an unorthodox view.Anonimu 19:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- BTW, "pro-Communist" and "anti-Communist" views on Red Terror are identical. Lenin tells that Red terror is absolutely neccessary, and Richard Pipes confirmes: yes, Lenin was right, it was indeed neccessary for communists to stay in power. What differs is their moral values.Biophys 19:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- O'K, it will be easier to fix than to discuss. It is well known that bolshevics had no significant popular support. They only got a quarter of the vote at the height of their popularity in the elections. They were also unpopular among industrial workers. Massive strikes by Russian workers were "mercilessly" (as Lenin said) suppressed during Red terror - is it missing here? Well, this should be included.Biophys 20:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- How come they got in power then? There were not supported by a foreign state's army and they weren't part of the old ruling class to have access to vast resources.Anonimu 21:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- O'K, it will be easier to fix than to discuss. It is well known that bolshevics had no significant popular support. They only got a quarter of the vote at the height of their popularity in the elections. They were also unpopular among industrial workers. Massive strikes by Russian workers were "mercilessly" (as Lenin said) suppressed during Red terror - is it missing here? Well, this should be included.Biophys 20:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- A decisive and military-organized Party does not need much popular support to came to power (2% of population is enough), if they operate in a Failed state ("weak link"). All they needed is a few thousands of fanatics who can organize Red Terror. That is what Lenin realized and implemented. Of course, that was not easy. After the October Revolution, no one in the West believed that bolsheviks can survive for long.Biophys 21:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- And yet they could conquer the world largest country (or second, i'm not sure if the britannic empire was larger). The Red Army was probably made of Dragos.Anonimu 22:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not at all. Cheka shoot those Red Army Dragos (just people like you or me) "like dogs" when they deserted in hundreds of thousands.Biophys 23:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- But these Cheka agents also had to be quite numerous and well trained to do it, cause desserters take the guns with them and can oppose fierce resistance.Anonimu 00:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Right. Hence the Pitchfork Uprising, Tambov Rebellion, Makhno, and others. You probably have no idea that Russian Civil War was not between Reds and Whites, but mostly between Reds and "Greens", that is civilians (based on the numbers of victims). But Cheka was represented by Internal Troops with guns and chemical weapons, plus Red Army (thouse who fought for whatever reason, such as not to be shot themselves).Biophys 00:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Anyway, the Reds were some real muthafuckers... they fought the whites, greens, anarchists, ethnic nationalist, czechs, brits, yankees, japs, frenchies, romanians etc and they won. they almost eliminated poles, but shit happens and they had to settle with an armistice. nevertheless, that's a great lesson on how to defend your ideals.Anonimu 00:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Right. Hence the Pitchfork Uprising, Tambov Rebellion, Makhno, and others. You probably have no idea that Russian Civil War was not between Reds and Whites, but mostly between Reds and "Greens", that is civilians (based on the numbers of victims). But Cheka was represented by Internal Troops with guns and chemical weapons, plus Red Army (thouse who fought for whatever reason, such as not to be shot themselves).Biophys 00:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- But these Cheka agents also had to be quite numerous and well trained to do it, cause desserters take the guns with them and can oppose fierce resistance.Anonimu 00:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Not at all. Cheka shoot those Red Army Dragos (just people like you or me) "like dogs" when they deserted in hundreds of thousands.Biophys 23:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- And yet they could conquer the world largest country (or second, i'm not sure if the britannic empire was larger). The Red Army was probably made of Dragos.Anonimu 22:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)